What if there was a race of intelligent humnaoid creatures that could not be touch by or see magic. I am currently reading a series called The Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind. A couple of books back he introduced a culture of humans that magic users can't sense with their magic nor can they see or be effected by magic. Today I began thinking about what a race like this would do to a medium magic level campaign setting.
They would see the true form of any one under the an disguise self or other illusion spells spells. A fireball would explode around them, but they would emerge untouched. Things moved by magic would still effect them, such as a mage using magic to drop a boulder on a member of this race the boulder would hurt the target.
This race would be unable to take classes that delve into magic both arcane and divine.
What do you guys think? Would it be worth developing this race or would it be too much trouble? What do I do about spells or ablitities that alter the subjects appearance, like alter self, polymorph, wildshape, etc...?
QuoteWhat do you guys think? Would it be worth developing this race or would it be too much trouble?
Would be interesting to see such a race.
QuoteWhat do I do about spells or ablitities that alter the subjects appearance, like alter self, polymorph, wildshape, etc...?
They would just see through those affects. It would be like looking looking through
dispel magic colored glasses. Or something...
I was toying with the idea of making a imilar template, based on the Resistants, from the webcomic Dominic Deegan. The main problem with it was it's hevy reliance on DM/player trust to ensure the template was balanced.
How would such a race react to psionics?
I was wondering the same thing. It would depend on how the DM interprets psionic (same as magic or a completely different entity). I honestly don't know much about psionics and haven't decided whether it will be in this setting.
I am still thinking this through. I wanted to get some feedback on the idea. As I flesh out this race more I will post information.
It seems a natural for a Psionics Are Different environment.
Would this unmagic race be for players, or strictly NPCs?
I would allow it for a playable race, but they will be warned that healing magic will not work on them, and their class choices will be severely diminished.
Quote from: PoseidonI would allow it for a playable race, but they will be warned that healing magic will not work on them, and their class choices will be severely diminished.
For such a race, an Herbal healing feat to amp up the healing skill could come in quite handy.
So, fighter, monk, diminished rogue. What else?
There's a lot of problems inherent in this sort of thing, as such a race will drastically alter the way magic's perceived and used in the world. There's also a strong potential for gimmickry (as such a race will be pretty much a one-trick pony nine times out of eight), and the unavoidable creation of situations that make very little sense.
I'm not saying the problems are insurmountable, but for me, they wouldn't be worth the hassle. Unless I planned to make this magicless race a primary feature of my setting, I wouldn't bother.
Having them completely immune to magic directly messes with a big part of the way the game's set up (unless you want to rewrite all of that as well.)
Let's list a few of the logical effects of a magic immune race in-game, without even worrying for now about the backflips one would have to do to balance such a thing:
1. Magical healing will not affect them. In any kind of standard campaign setting with standard combat mechanics, that alone would put me off the idea of such a race entirely.
2. Magic items function as normal in their hands. Where do higher-level characters unload their cash, if not on magic gear?
3. They're stuck on one plane, because Plane Shift, portals, etc. do not affect them. Better not plan on teleportation or any sort of planar travel.
4. Their mere existence essentially annuls the entire Illusion line of magic; no right-thinking spellcaster would want to rely on it.
5. Against any spellcaster with a brain, automatic stalemate. The Mage is unable to harm the Magicless with spells, and the Magicless is automatically absolutely unable to counter when the Mage flies away, becomes invisible, teleports away, etc.
Beyond all of that, it forces you to draw some fairly arbitrary lines on the subject of magic. Consider Fireball-- are the Magicless immune to it or not?
At the heart of it, Fireball just creates a mass of fire. If the Magicless are immune, are the also immune to normal, nonmagical fire, and if not, what's the difference between that and the fire created by magic? If a mage uses magic to start a forest fire, does the nonmagically-sustained forest fire burn a Magicless?
If we say that fire doesn't affect a Magicless when it's created by a spell, how far do we take it? If I use some sort of magic to create an axe and hit a Magicless with the axe, does it wound? If not, what's the difference between a magically created axe and a gout of magically created flame, where one wounds and the other doesn't?
What happens when you use Wall of Stone to entrap a Magicless, or create an earthquake at its feet? What happens if you craft a storm to sink a ship the Magicless is traveling on, or magically collapse a cave ceiling as a Magicless and his companions are traveling underneath? How does a Magicless fare when traveling with non-immune companions in a place littered with magic traps?
A version of a magicless ranger(without an animal companion) and if other sources are available the Swashbuckler, possibly the Knight.
As for the healing. I could just modify the healing skill or make an herbal healing skill that will allow more HP to be gained. Or even a race specific healer class that can heal so many times per day like similar to the cure wound tree of spells.
LC you just said all of my fears and more. I was in the process of figuring out how different spells would effect them or not effect them. Unfortunately I don't have answers to these. The magicless would be able to see an invisible wizard, since it is a simple illusion. Walls of stone would work, because the manipulate the world around them. The magical fire is a little difficult. I probably would have it that the inital blast of magic (the direct hit would not hurt them), but if anything catches fire around them then they are very much in danger.
My plan for them in the world is a captive society. People of the world would fear them and long ago had them brought to one area that is now surrounded by large walls. Which they have turned into a nation. They are taught that the outside world is unlivable and the gates in the wall are heavily gaurded. Some have managed to escape. If found the escapees are put to death (I haven't fully decided upon this, because it would make the race very unplayable).
QuoteBeyond all of that, it forces you to draw some fairly arbitrary lines on the subject of magic. Consider Fireball-- are the Magicless immune to it or not?
At the heart of it, Fireball just creates a mass of fire. If the Magicless are immune, are the also immune to normal, nonmagical fire, and if not, what's the difference between that and the fire created by magic? If a mage uses magic to start a forest fire, does the nonmagically-sustained forest fire burn a Magicless?
I was wondering the same thing. It would depend on how the DM interprets psionic (same as magic or a completely different entity). I honestly don't know much about psionics and haven't decided whether it will be in this setting.[/quote]tremendous[/i] drawbacks of their ability by using psionic items, etc.
[edit: i never read the entire thread before commenting, yeah?]
QuoteLC you just said all of my fears and more. I was in the process of figuring out how different spells would effect them or not effect them. Unfortunately I don't have answers to these. The magicless would be able to see an invisible wizard, since it is a simple illusion. Walls of stone would work, because the manipulate the world around them. The magical fire is a little difficult. I probably would have it that the inital blast of magic (the direct hit would not hurt them), but if anything catches fire around them then they are very much in danger.
completely[/i] already answered by the SR:Yes/No line in spell descriptions. :)
You may want to give them additional abilities to see thru illusions, as you seem to like that theme? Give them something like "True Seeing (Ex)".
Quote from: PoseidonMy plan for them in the world is a captive society. People of the world would fear them and long ago had them brought to one area that is now surrounded by large walls. Which they have turned into a nation. They are taught that the outside world is unlivable and the gates in the wall are heavily gaurded. Some have managed to escape. If found the escapees are put to death (I haven't fully decided upon this, because it would make the race very unplayable).
So, aside from the issues of mechanics and balancing this, you've illustrated one of the first things I tried to say (which I think came out a little mangled.)
With a race like this, it's very hard to use it without it becoming a very important idea of the setting. It forces its way to center stage of a setting, whether you wanted it to be a central issue or not.
You know I didn't even think of magic immunity, hhhmmm that would solve a lot of problems with the race. The thing with this ability would they still trip alarm spells? The thing is that magic would no be able to see nor touch them. Illusion spells (in my mind) work by the spell sending fasle information to the subjects brain a successful save means the magic can't take hold. Because they magic can't "see" them it can't try to send the false information to their brains. They basically can't be targeted by magic, which would probably make them incredibly powerful. This would also be their downfall as well, since they can't be healed, buffed, fly across a river of lava or anything else magic can help them with.
As for psionics though I am back and forth on whether or not to bring psionics into my setting. They would be the perfect place to put it and because they would be so different from the rest of the people, people would fear them.
I think the best way to do your plan would be to do it more like how Goodkind actually does it; instead of making them a separate race, just make them a separate culture that is cursed somehow (possibly with the spell immunity option brainface talked about).
QuoteYou know I didn't even think of magic immunity, hhhmmm that would solve a lot of problems with the race. The thing with this ability would they still trip alarm spells? The thing is that magic would no be able to see nor touch them. Illusion spells (in my mind) work by the spell sending fasle information to the subjects brain a successful save means the magic can't take hold. Because they magic can't "see" them it can't try to send the false information to their brains.
actually do mess with someone's head, and probably are affected by SR/immunity.) If you use the SR tag, you'll have something to point to to say how this interacts, rather than having to make stuff up on the fly, but you'll occassionally run across stuff that doesn't make sense to you. (but apparently made sense to the designers at the time.)
Me, i'd go with something clearly defined i could point to, because if nothing else it keeps things fair, but YMMV.
(You can find SR:no spells here: http://www.d20srd.org/filters/spell.php. A lot of the ones listed will be things like true strike, or self-only buffs, so the list will be a little inflated for your purposes.)
edit: Ha I didn't see you last post brainface. Yeah delving to deep into would make a DM have to consider how the spell works rather than it just does.
I think if I do make this race I will make them a simple (the basic spell resistance or even immunity) version instead of the complicated version. With the simple version what ever can get through the immunity or resistance would be able to effect them including illusions.
I wanted to stay away from making them too much like Goodkind's culture. They were banished (twice, by two different areas) and ended up living in a secluded part of the world, trapped by a wall (a rip in the world really) that lead to the underworld. So if I put them in a walled nation I am almost doing the same thing(I would imagine that magic users would be scared of them and would want them locked away or killed.).
Has any one here read any of this series?
I read Wizard's First Rule and about 300 pages of the next one, until I realized I wasn't really enjoying it.
If you're determined to use this kind of race/culture, and you don't want to have them imprisoned somehow, I think it could be perfectly reasonable to have them ruling over those less fortunate. Magic-users could certainly do little to stop them, and it might be an interesting nation-construction exercise.
This could be a really cool thing. I've read Goodkind, but I don't remember this magicless race - what were they called? If it was in the last 2-3 books of the series, than that explains why I dont know about them.
I think the best option would be to give them a personal (skin tight) antimagic field that extends to what they touch directly, excluding the ground, and True Seeing as an extradordinary ability. Not sure how to balance that, but it would give you the desired effect.
Quote from: Captain Xathan RedclawThis could be a really cool thing. I've read Goodkind, but I don't remember this magicless race - what were they called? If it was in the last 2-3 books of the series, than that explains why I dont know about them.
I think the best option would be to give them a personal (skin tight) antimagic field that extends to what they touch directly, excluding the ground, and True Seeing as an extradordinary ability. Not sure how to balance that, but it would give you the desired effect.
If you've read all but the last two or three books (including the one that just came out), you should have encountered a race like the one you described (somewhere in the Midlands if I remeber correctly).
The culture/race I am describing is explained in Pillars of Creation (4th from last) and Naked Empire (3rd from last. This is where you meet the nation/culture/race). I just finished the latest book and now have to wait for the last book in the series. L(
Quote from: Luminous CrayonI read Wizard's First Rule and about 300 pages of the next one, until I realized I wasn't really enjoying it.
If you're determined to use this kind of race/culture, and you don't want to have them imprisoned somehow, I think it could be perfectly reasonable to have them ruling over those less fortunate. Magic-users could certainly do little to stop them, and it might be an interesting nation-construction exercise.
I am by no means determined to make this race (well I guess I am sorta). I started this thread to gahter inforamation, and to see if there was anything I may have over looked. I have already decided that if I do make this race it will be a simpler version than what I had originally planned out.
Actually I have thought about making them a ruling power. I started to think about the first encounters with the race. Magic users would begin to fear them, because they had no power over them. Mundane kings would also be watchful of such a race, since their magical warnings would not work against a magicless (they need a name) assassin. A war would finally break out to ease the troubled minds. I then had to imagine how the war would go. It is true that magic users would be limited against the magicless, but not worthless. Buffs would still work on their soldiers as well as healing. Shape stone and walls of stone would seperate the magicless's army allowing the mage's army to pick off lesser foes. These examples as well as other things would give an army lead or helped by a mage a great advantage. The magicless could have sent small assassin teams to take out, but the mages would have defenses against that as well. The simplest would be invisiblity, illusions and alarm spells, since they know none would be triggered or tricked by such spells. Spells that lead to other dimensions/planes would also keep the mages (and their advantage) protect
Of course all this changes if I make the psionic.
Hmmm... What about one race whose members are encased in personal antimagic fields and one race whose members are encased in personal antipsionic fields (with magic and psionics being different, of course)? That would make for an interesting rivalry, and would be somewhat balanced by the fact that both magic and psionics are available.
Quote from: Epic MeepoHmmm... What about one race whose members are encased in personal antimagic fields and one race whose members are encased in personal antipsionic fields (with magic and psionics being different, of course)? That would make for an interesting rivalry, and would be somewhat balanced by the fact that both magic and psionics are available.
Interesting. You have gotten my wheels turning. I have started to think about these two races and the development of magic and psionics. Now each race would at some point figure out that what they consider their strength (magic or psionics) would be useless against the other. They would have to resort to more mundane methods of offense and defense. It would probably work in a low magic setting. Then the question becomes what do other races think of these two races? I will think of this more, but for now I am off to work.
Just a thought: make the two races the same race and give each gender have a different field.
Wow. Darn double-posts. :chase:
Quote from: RaelifinJust a thought: make the two races the same race and give each gender have a different field.
Sounds like something a raw brussel sprout eater would say. Hee hee with this method lovers quarrels wouldn't end up with some being blown up or polymorphed, just the plan old throwing a vase at their spouses head.