I'm still working out details about how religions work in my campaign, and wanted to invite some discussion on it.
As I see it there are some interesting perspectives available on deities, and they can all be true. There can be the idea that nothing works without the help of the gods, not really, so that the invocations over crafts, agriculture, birth, marriage, etc are genuinely or generally believed to be necessary in order for the daily facts of life to go on. Then there is the idea that while sapient beings largely control their own lives it is nevertheless wise to be respectful to those beings who have power over certain areas of life. Furthermore, there is the idea that deities are merely symbols of philosophical wisdom, from which nevertheless power and understanding can be obtained. There is also the idea that deities are strange distant creatures who must be propitiated lest they become angry. And so on...
What I've tentatively been working on is the idea that there are a few kinds of deities in my campaign world, but I'm trying to decide how to have them affect my campaign.
First of all, there are ancient races who exist to some extent beyond the ken of humanity/other sentients and are worshipped, who actually appear from time to time, and who in some remote regions actually still as they once did rule over people directly. This tends to be rare; I'm adopting the idea from Sumerian mythology that the tumult and sheer numbers of humanity wore out the higher beings and they withdrew themselves in order to have some peace. However in these cases the religions that remain that worship these beings literally respect the power they have over the land and the principles of existence, and the idea that the rulers of the mortal world must have a literal relationship with them in order to have real power. (for instance the idea that the king must be the champion of the queen who is the high priestess of the goddess of the land)
Second, there are legendary heroes who have assumed the position of deity but in fact are dead. This is more like respectful observance.
Third, there is reverence among certain orders and certain philosophers and adepts for the Source of Creation, a mysterious creator who is believed to be also the source of wisdom and compassion.
Fourth, there is the worship of demons, who are creatures that exist in another dimension and grant powers in exchange for bargains.
What I'm sort of struggling with is whether or not this is too complext to all be true at once or whether they can somehow fit together, and I'd like some feedback on that.
Perhaps some of the gods and demi-gods are in fact same entities, just worshiped under different names in different cultures?
This would reduce the number of actual deities and make them easier to manage.
I don't think it's too complex. But I tend to go with pretty complex then hand people a slightly dumbed-down version an let them discover in a campaign that things are never quite what they appear.
Hm...okay. What I've got ready to present so far in my game as far as the active campaign goes is the idea that people in the multicultural nation of New Edom in particular are finding to some extent that worship of the gods is more ceremonial and respectful than anything. The exceptions are those who practice druidism (belief and in fact knowledge of the existence of an ancient race with godlike attributes) and are in effect recent arrivals, those who are priests of the Source (worshipping creation itself) , and an example of a cult of demon/undead worship. (basically worshipping the spirit of a dead evil king) However, they will also discover that certain 'gods' are actually the primogentors of humanity, who came from an alien spacecraft that came through a dimensional door and crashed on this world.
As for the nearby nonhumans, I consider the worship of the goblins' deities as demon-worship, which they fell to when their civilization was destroyed millenia ago. The lizard-folk and the other aquatic creatures (sea elves, locathah, merefolk) worship their ancestors, while that ancient and cruel race, the sahuagin, worship demons as well as the goblins though with greater sophistication. The Wood Elves have a sort of tribal memory of the Source but otherwise follow the worship of the ancient races through gestures of respect (hunting sacrifices and that kind of thing). The Dwarves observe ancestor-worship through the practice of crafts and war, while the Gnomes do the same.
That sounds good to me. If you are interested, I take the stance on Kishar that some gods actually exist, but are in fact a race of beings evolved to a state of pure energy. Others are demons (though most worshippers don't know this), while others still are actually people whose legends have deified them in the eyes of mortals (not literally); in this last case, these people are mostly elves or encarans whose immortality and powers could lead to the belief in their divinity. Other entities are worshipped that simply don't exist.
My setting, however, does not have divine magic to confirm or deny the existance of gods. If you want divine magic, you can still have religion be ambigious by saying that gods don't grant spells, faith does (which sounds like what are you saying).
I like your idea of the Source. I think demon worship is more interesting if the worshippers don't know the true nature of their deity. A race that knowingly worships a demon seems so black-and-white evil as to be bland and cliche.
As a side note, I think you mean that certain gods are the progenitors (ancestors) of humanity, not the primogenitors (being the first born children or the legal process of succession through first born son). ;)
Thanks for the correction..yes, your campaign setting actually gave me a greater clarity for my own. The thing is, I do like the idea of some deities (and demons) being able to grant certain powers. For instance in Greek Mythology magical items and abilities are often gifts of the Olympians.
What I had in mind for the demons would be that the humanoids for instance believe that worship of them will one day restore them to their ancestral glory. If you're familiar with the barghest, the envoys for instance of the demons to the goblin tribes tend to be barghests, and therefore fulfill their idea of wiser, more powerful goblins that they might one day become. Of course as you say often evil is necessity disguised; the belief that you have to do something unpleasant to achief important ends, or else you are motivated by vengeance or what have you. In the case of the goblinoids in my world this is true in both cases; they believe that only when humans, elves, dwarves, etc are swept from the world will they come into their own again.
I read something rather interesting in a David Gemmel novel. Two characters are discussing a sorceror, and one believes he must be evil, and yet is amazed by the sorceror's apparent compassion and kindness towards his apprentice. The second character (who is a nonhuman priestess) states that this is the interesting thing about humanity.
"And because of this you doubt whether the Ipsissimus can be truly evil? I do understand that, Grey Man. You humans are wonderful creatures. You can show compassion and love that is awe-inspiring, and hatred of such power and vileness it could darken the sun. What you find hard to accept is that such extremes are in every one of you. You gaze upon the works of evil men and you tell yourselves that they must be monsters, inhuman and indifferent. Because to accpe that they are just like you would threaten the foundations of your existence...he is not a monster. He is a man. He can laugh and know joy. He can hug a child and feel the warmth of human love. And he can order the death of thousands without regret. He can torture and kill, and rape and maim. It will not touch him. Yes, he loves the boy, but he loves power more."
I think to be honest that there is an evil perspective, and that the above quotation (from Hero in the Shadows by David Gemmel, a book I strongly recommend) suggests that it is our choices rather than our stated beliefs that make us good or evil generally. A goblin clan might within itself be kindly to its children, thoughtful towards one another, and cruel as cats towards anyone else. That makes them evil as a society by the rule of standards in D&D because you rate 'good' or 'evil' depending on how npcs and creatures respond to the players.
Quote from: TybaltWhat I'm sort of struggling with is whether or not this is too complext to all be true at once or whether they can somehow fit together, and I'd like some feedback on that.
It does not seem complex to me. Take a look at our world, how many different religious views are there? My point is that the great thing about religion is that it is personal. What you believe to be "true" is believed by others to be "false". It is these differences between beliefs that will create the opportunity for some great campaigns. Religious extremists will fight hardest when their beliefs are questioned.
I remember reading a post somewhere in my travels (sorry don't remember where or who) that basically said "religion should be a mystery, people need something to beleive in. Be careful because the more certainty about the Gods, the less there is left to actually believe in."
I think you have done a good job and it is possible to make it all fit together.