This looks like a good idea. (http://www.casavaria.com/sentido/science/2006/06-0802-new-universe.htm)
Humans are stupid...
We're all gonna die...
But yes, I do want to play God...
I've read this scenario in a few science fiction books before.
It's very, very cool that this is able to happen. Even if we can't observe that it actually happened, I still think it will be a definite footnote in history.
Eh Macgyver already did that with a toothpick, bubble gum, aluminum foil, and a microwave. :)
so the scientists doing this are running on "if the project is successful"?
why oh why oh WHY can i hear some hillbilly yelling "hey MAW! if'n this werks...." about this project?
Dunno, unless there's a hillbilly dialect that Japanese scientists use.
I just hope it doesn't work completely or works completely... No half-assed splinching where we all experience agonising pain for thousands of years...
Nah, entropic consumption would probably rapidly consume everything in its path, man. We'd be dead in microseconds.
Or some kind of obsence quantum fuckup and subsequent utter annihilation.
Utter Annihilation kinda sucks...
It's better than some alternatives.
Boy, do I want to be known as a member of the sentient race who were responsible for punching a hole through space-time!
Although....
Man, a weird idea just hit me.
We've always wondered where our *own* Big Bang "came from", so to speak. There are theories, yeah, but that's all.
What if somebody from another universe inhibited a micro-singularity like this one to create our own space-time? Wouldn't we then have an obligation to do the same?
If that were the case, then the question of our existence and the purpose of humanity in the universe is called into question...
Man, I'm thinking an offshoot philosophy thread is in order or something.
Yeah, that very same idea hit me yesterday when I was reading about this in New Science. My friend and I had a well-good romp coming up with Sci Fi plots and alternative UFO cults for this...
It's like the space continuum is the perpetual artificial reproduction of universes: when sentient life reaches sufficient advancement, it produces another universe, and so it begins again.
L. Ron Hubbard would have a friggin' field day.
But then the question becomes where the original singularity emerged from, unless it's an endless cycle that eventually loops back through the original space-time? An endless cycle...
But then, wouldn't that make us predestined to create the new reality? That would mean that space-time is predictable and repeats itself continuously... reincarnating all matter again and again. We could be living in a repetition of the same proto-matter cycle, for some unknown amount of time...
This is like a Star Trek plot gone wrong...
Predestination is a nsaty notion, but, sadly, one I am inclined to accept.
I am reminded now of the ugly Eternal Return.
EDIT:
Alternatively, this might draw parallels with genetic engineering. The idea of a Big Bang followed by a Big Crunch followed by a Big Bang etcetera has been floating around for a while now, and this New Universe idea is very much an example of humanity siezing Natural Process by the nutsack and throttling it into submission: rather than allow the standard course of expansion, contraction, reexpansion, we're taking control of things. Similarly, genetic engineering involves grabbing hold of evolution and playing it by our own rules.
Interesting...
Meaning? Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
From a funding and budget standpoint, it is a brilliant variation on the Emperor's Clothes theme. If said "baby universe" is completely divorced from out own, then there is no ability to measure or quantify it, therefore it is noy there, but because nothing is there, they can claim success and ask for more money.
Not that I am cynical or anything...
No, I've thought the same thing. We're speaking in theoretics, though, and theoretically, it's a mind-boggling application of science.
Practically, it's the Emperor's New Clothes.
Theoretically it's the cat's pyjamas!
Quote from: Elven DoritosNo, I've thought the same thing. We're speaking in theoretics, though, and theoretically, it's a mind-boggling application of science.
Theoretically, Stargate SG-1 is a boggle-minding application of science.
I love Stargate SG-1...
You know the really great part? We haven't yet proven that there are higher dimensions into which a baby universe can go. It might just turn out that another Big Bang has nowhere to go but out.
(Of course, the real secret is that "Baby Universe" and "Mini Black Hole" are both just jargon that, when translated into English, each mean, roughly, "X place in Y equation where term Z equals 0." All that creating universes and bending space and making wormholes crap is just a bunch of fancy code-words for "I'm doing math; now give me funding!")
(EDIT: Incidentally, though, there is evidence suggesting that black holes and electrons are mathematically similar. In other words, an electron might actually be a mini black hole in many respects.)
on the UFO cult discussion- read 'the twelfth planet', but zacheria sitchen (sp?). one thing he mentions is that, supposedly, the original hebrew version of the bible had an entire section between "in the beginning", and "god created the heavens and the earth". apparently, according to his claims, "god" was an alien race that was created by some other alien race, and the "god" aliens...... i dunno, something completely idotic.
hey, japanese hillbillies creating a baby universe!
How much you wanna bet the hillbillies's baby universe is born to an unwed mother?
Quote from: Epic MeepoHow much you wanna bet the hillbillies's baby universe is born to an unwed mother?
That is his cousin?
And it time is circular, the baby universe may be also end up being his own step-father, thus completing the hillbilly trifecta.
IÃ,´m not usually one to advocate morals (there's usually plenty of people doing that) but I must wonder: can we do this? Who knows what we're giving birth to, and abortion is not an option here? We're creating an entire new universe just as a scientific experiment? And since we probably won't be able to perceive its creation, we will keep creating them until someone finally comes up with detailed enough microscopes that we can, which might mean we've already created hundreds of universe, thus deciding on the lives of a trillion sentient creatures. And we're not even sure about the workings of the whole process. I'm inclined to say "don't do this" in line with the old adage of my mother "do not use words you don't know the meaning of, and don't play with things you don't understand".
Túrin (*is suprised by this own rant*)
I, on the other hand, am all for it. Not for any justifiable reason, just the idiotic impulsive machismo that makes any madman say "I can, so why not?"
Basically, it's like CYMRO said: very much an "Emperor's New Clothes. We'll never know, because this new universe will partition itself in a number of nano-instants, and it'll be gone. Then we can lie around and dream about all the whacky possibilities that this fledgling cosmos could engender. That's about the only satisfaction this project will produce.
So I say: do it for the hell of it. And for the male ego, God bless it.
Which is horribly amoral, but hey, this is coming from the kid who tortures housepets. His own housepets.
QuoteWe're creating an entire new universe just as a scientific experiment? And since we probably won't be able to perceive its creation,
That is the whole point in a nutshell. They
say they are creating a universe, but with no way to measure such things, it is just an elaborate "See the egress!" boondoggle. They get huge sums for "research" and accelerate a particle and claim success, and then its off to Pago Pago.
I prefer the "Gabriel, pull my finger!" theory to this "Baby-universe" thing. Not the most enlightened alternative, but it's better than witch hunts.
More fun sci-fi / stupid humans stuff: The New Age of Sandwich Warfare (http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=1152)
thought: assuming this isnt some emperors new clothes scheme, and assuming the baby universe really does have a completely seperate time/space continuum.....
who says "time" in baby-U starts at the point when the japanese scientist create it? put another way, how do we know that, upon creation (according to our t/s continuum), baby-U hasnt already been going on for millenia (according to baby-U t/s continuum)?
if this is the case, are we still faced with the ethical dillema of the fates of countless sentiant species?
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Are you asserting the space-time will expand into an already-existing timestream, therefore "polluting" or "overwriting" it?
Let's just hope that no one involved is named Akira or Tetsuo.
...knowing some common Japanese names, this is impossible.
well, assuming the creation of the baby universe can be pinpointed to a single second- say, the 37th second of 1200h (noon), on july 16, 2010. from what i understand, so far, were running under the assumption that this second in our time will be the first seond in baby universe's timeline.
if baby-U has a completely seperate time/space continuum, then whats the basis of that assumption? whos to say that the 37th second of 1200, july 16, 2010, wouldnt be equivalent to the 97th second in baby-U time? or, even further, how do we know it hasnt developed to the point where a sentient baby-U race developed a calander, and could say it was the year 206, as according to the king glafklaf?
if this is the case, then the scientist didnt really set the wheels in motion to create sentient races; in the baby-U time/space continuum, sentience had already existed for who-knows-how-long. are we still left with the ethical dillema of the fates of these races?
Quote from: Natural 20Humans are stupid...
We're all gonna die...
But yes, I do want to play God...
I'd be satisfied with divine rank zero.
Quote from: sdragon1984, ona'envalyaif this is the case, then the scientist didnt really set the wheels in motion to create sentient races; in the baby-U time/space continuum, sentience had already existed for who-knows-how-long. are we still left with the ethical dillema of the fates of these races?
Yes we would. Regardless of whether or not the creation of the baby-universe coincides (measured in our time) with the first moment of its existence (in its own time, assuming the new universe even knows time as we know it) or whether the creation (measured in our time) coincides with the rule of FlakFlak the Second, there is still a direct causal relation between the actions of Japanese scientists and the existence of the baby-universe, even though the timeframe is distorted because we are working between dimensions. So:
Cause:
Japanese scientists bring a particle to nearly-infinite mass (if I understand correctly, doesn't matter for my point though).
leads to
Effect:
A universe is created which may contain sentient life.
This means we are responsible, regardless of the order of time in which things happen.
Having that said (IMO, having proven that we are responsible for its creation regardless whatever I am going to say next), I would like to further speculate on your idea of different time-frames.
Let's assume that what we read in the article is right, and there will be a new four-dimensional universe separated from ours by another (let's assume for simplicity that it is just one) fifth dimension. Then, when thinking on the level of that fifth dimension, the two universes are not two changing three-dimensional spaces, but four-dimensional static entities: if time is not change, but another dimension, time as we know it no longer exists, and the universe would turn from a three-dimensional space that is subject to change, to an immutable four-dimensional space-time that is
not subject to any change whatsoever.
If this is making any sense (Salacious Angel once had a campaign setting that incorporated this idea, so he might be able to explain it better than I am) then there is no point to comparing the times of the different universes: because they exist in different dimensions, they are not directly analogue to one specific point in the other universe.
To show what I mean with a three-dimensional example: suppose we have a three-dimensional grid with three axes, x, y and z. We might take a single point on the x-axis, say x = 5. Were we then to move across the y-axis, we could once again fix a value for x, say x = 7. However, the value for x we end up with after moving across the y-axis completely depends on which direction we traveled in: had we traveled perpendicular to the y-axis, we would have found x = 5 after our move, but we might also have traveled with lots of curves, and end up at x = 100.
Now let's try to view our three-dimensional universe as one-dimensional for simplicity, and give it the z-axis in my example. Time would then be the x-axis, and the y-axis would be the mysterious fifth dimension that separates us from the baby-universe. Now at a certain point in time x = 5 we move across the y-axis to the baby-universe. However, we don't know if we will travel in a straight line, so we might end up with very different values for x and z after coming to the baby-universe. Thus there is no direct relation or analogy to time in our universe and time in the baby-universe, because they are two completely separate "times".
As I write this, however, I realize that it might very well be possible to define the analogy you were talking about as "the closest point", i.e. the analogous time and place in the baby-universe compared to our universe would be the orthogonal projection of the x and z axes on the y-axis. Then you theory might very well hold, and it is a real possibility that this relation is warped: it might not just be: [time in baby-universe] = [time in our universe] + 10, but the relation might be reversed or whatever. Thus, the creation of the baby-universe here in our universe might coincide with the rule of king Flakflak II in the baby-universe, who decides a few weeks later to let his scientists proceed with their latest experiment (which is universe creation) thus creating
our universe. :o
Just some random and most likely unintelligible thoughts...
Túrin
lol mutual creation paradox!
wow... i ran into what was essentially the same problem when i wrote the prior post, and i suspected it wouldve been a million times more complicated when written out....
say, on the Q axis (time) we currently exist (at the exact instant this post is completely submitted) at 437. we start out at 0 ("big bang"), and steadily advance 1/gagglesec (leaving, of course, 437 gagglsecs between the big bang and now). since th creation of baby-U would be an immesuarebly small fraction of a gagglesec later then now, we can safely say its in the same gagglesec, with no major loss. this leaves our current X/Y/Z/Q coordinates something like, 4/19/13/437 (+1/gagglesec), and our starting coordinates 4/19/13/0 (+1/gagglesec).
baby-U exists on a completely seperate 4D grid (possibly right next to ours, as per the fifth dimension), with coordinates of 15/32/5/10 (+1/year).
what my question proposed was, how would those first 10 years (baby-U time) be handled in our universe? would we be responsible for the events that took place? could we be held responible for them?
edit- please note, that while im positive it could very easily be much more of a complex corelation then that, im keeping it this simple for my sake; any further complications would be, as far as this question is concerned, unneccessary, and... well, complicating.
edit 2- also note, this situation can very easily be claimed in the 'emperors new clothes' scam, presented above. im just going on the assumption (however accurate or inaccurate it may be) that this isnt a scam.
Quoteim just going on the assumption (however accurate or inaccurate it may be) that this isnt a scam.
Big assumption, but assuming so:
If the acceleration of a particular particle means the creation of another universe, then it is just one of a overwhelming number of universes being created constantly by the large but unknown number of natural and unnatural phenomena that can and will accelerate said particle.
Eat the right combination of hot peppers and I bet you, too, can accelerate some quantum particles. Whether or not it gives birth to a new universe or just reduces the air quality in this one is open for debate.
They can't make a reliable space shuttle. They have not presented a safe, cheap alternative to fossil fuels. They do not understand how the human brain works. They cannot accurately predict even the simplest weather. They cannot cure cancer.
But they claim they can create another universe.
Riiiighhht.
Quote from: CYMRO of the TRUE Cabbage CabalThey can't make a reliable space shuttle.
On this point, I have to disagree-- every major shuttle disaster occured because NASA proceeded regardless of warnings from the manufacturers and supervisiory companies of the component products. I have word for this from a very reliable and very informed source.
So, it's not that they can't make a reliable space shuttle. It's that they can't find a reliable
human to manage the thing.
Meh, the appeal of the story isn't what they're going to do. It's what they're trying to do... and, on that note, why the fuck they want to do it.
QuoteOn this point, I have to disagree-- every major shuttle disaster occured because NASA proceeded regardless of warnings from the manufacturers and supervisiory companies of the component products.
It is made of ceramic tile that they can't make stick on reliably!
It ain't the disasters that make it unreliable. It is the astronomical cost of maintenance and basically rebuilding the stupid thing after every flight.
Unreliable.
Biplanes can fly in weather they scrub a space shuttle launch over.
Unreliable.
Quote from: beejazzMeh, the appeal of the story isn't what they're going to do. It's what they're trying to do... and, on that note, why the fuck they want to do it.
They are trying to avoid real work, solving real problems.
That's... BRILLIANT! We should all take an example from these scientists. Rather than rely on labor-saving devices to lighten our workload, we should all just LOOK BUSY in order to avoid labor to begin with!
Quote from: CYMRO of the TRUE Cabbage CabalQuoteim just going on the assumption (however accurate or inaccurate it may be) that this isnt a scam.
Big assumption, but assuming so:
If the acceleration of a particular particle means the creation of another universe, then it is just one of a overwhelming number of universes being created constantly by the large but unknown number of natural and unnatural phenomena that can and will accelerate said particle.
Eat the right combination of hot peppers and I bet you, too, can accelerate some quantum particles. Whether or not it gives birth to a new universe or just reduces the air quality in this one is open for debate.
They can't make a reliable space shuttle. They have not presented a safe, cheap alternative to fossil fuels. They do not understand how the human brain works. They cannot accurately predict even the simplest weather. They cannot cure cancer.
But they claim they can create another universe.
Riiiighhht.
main difference here, of course, is intent and, (to a lesser extent) knowledge. when was the last time you ate something with the intent on creating a new universe? or better, how often does the average human eat something with that intent? for that matter, how often does the average human eat something with the knowledge that they may create a new universe?
i never said i believe they really are doing what they claim to be doing, nor did i say that its possible to use their methods to do it. i posed my hypothesis with no mention of
how they do it, only
is they do it.
Quotefor that matter, how often does the average human eat something with the knowledge that they may create a new universe?
Well...I know a few, but I travel in some pretty strange circles. :yumm:
Quote from: sdragon1984, ona'envalyaQuote from: CYMRO of the TRUE Cabbage CabalQuoteim just going on the assumption (however accurate or inaccurate it may be) that this isnt a scam.
Big assumption, but assuming so:
If the acceleration of a particular particle means the creation of another universe, then it is just one of a overwhelming number of universes being created constantly by the large but unknown number of natural and unnatural phenomena that can and will accelerate said particle.
Eat the right combination of hot peppers and I bet you, too, can accelerate some quantum particles. Whether or not it gives birth to a new universe or just reduces the air quality in this one is open for debate.
They can't make a reliable space shuttle. They have not presented a safe, cheap alternative to fossil fuels. They do not understand how the human brain works. They cannot accurately predict even the simplest weather. They cannot cure cancer.
But they claim they can create another universe.
Riiiighhht.
main difference here, of course, is intent and, (to a lesser extent) knowledge. when was the last time you ate something with the intent on creating a new universe? or better, how often does the average human eat something with that intent? for that matter, how often does the average human eat something with the knowledge that they may create a new universe?
i never said i believe they really are doing what they claim to be doing, nor did i say that its possible to use their methods to do it. i posed my hypothesis with no mention of how they do it, only is they do it.
I intend to create a new world EVERY time I eat chili fries... a world of pain and horror! :explode:
Quote from: beejazzQuote from: sdragon1984, ona'envalyaQuote from: CYMRO of the TRUE Cabbage CabalQuoteim just going on the assumption (however accurate or inaccurate it may be) that this isnt a scam.
Big assumption, but assuming so:
If the acceleration of a particular particle means the creation of another universe, then it is just one of a overwhelming number of universes being created constantly by the large but unknown number of natural and unnatural phenomena that can and will accelerate said particle.
Eat the right combination of hot peppers and I bet you, too, can accelerate some quantum particles. Whether or not it gives birth to a new universe or just reduces the air quality in this one is open for debate.
They can't make a reliable space shuttle. They have not presented a safe, cheap alternative to fossil fuels. They do not understand how the human brain works. They cannot accurately predict even the simplest weather. They cannot cure cancer.
But they claim they can create another universe.
Riiiighhht.
main difference here, of course, is intent and, (to a lesser extent) knowledge. when was the last time you ate something with the intent on creating a new universe? or better, how often does the average human eat something with that intent? for that matter, how often does the average human eat something with the knowledge that they may create a new universe?
i never said i believe they really are doing what they claim to be doing, nor did i say that its possible to use their methods to do it. i posed my hypothesis with no mention of how they do it, only is they do it.
I intend to create a new world EVERY time I eat chili fries... a world of pain and horror! :explode:
Who said the spirit of scientific endeavor was dead?
It just smells that way...
I hold that we are still responsible even if in some way some of the action in the baby-universe takes place before it is created in our universe, because it is the cause-effect relation that matters, not the chronological one (even if existence of the baby-universe would somehow happen before its creation, creation would still be the cause and existence the effect).
Túrin
how could effect happen before cause? even in this example of 4D existance, i dont see how the ten years would be an effect; as far as i can tell, it would be an incredible blur of the otherwise thick line between "creation" and "discovery".
of course, now im even more confused, because in this case, creation wouldnt be possible without discovery....
meh. time distortion is already taken into account. we exist, therefore we will not be erased from any point before now... likewise, the other universe either exists in reality or as a possibility. if it's the latter, we have no responsibility towards it... any more than we have to exist in a perpetual state of fucking for the sake of all the 'potential' humans.
Quote from: beejazzif it's the latter, we have no responsibility towards it... any more than we have to exist in a perpetual state of fucking for the sake of all the 'potential' humans.
Wait, you aren't?