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The Archives => Homebrews (Archived) => Topic started by: beejazz on August 19, 2006, 01:17:59 PM

Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on August 19, 2006, 01:17:59 PM
Yup, just your standard, run-of-the-mill discussion thread.
Didn't want to put this up until I posted something you haven't already seen. So far, all we've got is the revamped rules, the revamped races, and the revamped classes. In case anyone is wondering why I changed the halflings so much, I have three words: NAUTICAL SLAVE REBELLIONS. I just wanted to make the halflings a little more badass... it might sound silly, but I've got pictures that prove it's awesomeness. If I ever get a scanner, I might actually show you guys. But enough about halflings; DISCUSS.

Diis Manibus: Rules and Crunch (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?12244.0)
Diis Manibus: Secrets (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?13146.0)
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on August 20, 2006, 11:48:58 AM
My personal opinion is that rolling a natural 1 and auto-missing one in 20 attacks is enough of a penalty.  Additional penalties are generally more frustrating than whatever they may add to the game.  Are we to believe a professional archer breaks his string once every 20 shots?  Sure it happens, but often enough that we need a special rule for it?

I do, however, like Defense bonus, armor as DR, and many of your other ideas.

A minor suggestion would be linking to this thread in the top.

Interesting idea about halflings.  I don't have them in my setting, but it does add some flavor.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Túrin on August 20, 2006, 12:52:05 PM
I am currently playing in a campaign that has been going for almost a year now, and we have used a natural-1-makes-bad-things-happen rule for all of that time. This has proven to be easily long enough for me to come to hate it. It just annoys me to death every time it comes up, whether on a PC or NPC. I find the realism-argument for it to be weak at best, and gameplay-wise I can see no advantage for it, except annoying players and effectively stealing turns from them. SO, from personal experience, I advise against it.

Túrin
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on August 20, 2006, 02:45:59 PM
I originally started using the natural one rules because of complaints regarding the fact that guns would never "jam up" I've used them and gone without them... and pretty much had fun either way. Like most of my changes it's more of a descriptive aide than a statistical necessity. I'm glad to have some support on the halflings... I just thought it was time to get rid of the sissy rural bull and give them a reason to adventure. One of my big worries is the barbarians with natural armor... I worry that it waters down the AC penalty for rage. I figured it was okay though, in that a barbarian remains consistently behind a fighter in terms of AC pretty much regardless.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: CYMRO on August 20, 2006, 03:04:52 PM
QuoteSO, from personal experience, I advise against it.

Agreed.  It was annoying twenty years ago. I cannot imagine playing in a game today that resurrected such a thing.

QuoteI originally started using the natural one rules because of complaints regarding the fact that guns would never "jam up"

Clearing a jamed round takes very little time for a practiced professional, easily represented by a failed attack roll.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on August 20, 2006, 03:22:26 PM
I dunno... worked for me anyway. Considering it only took.. what? A move action to fix? Wasn't that terribly inconvenient. And it's just so crazy when you attack the monk with a spiked chain and he just wraps it around his wrist, grins, and pulls.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on August 21, 2006, 09:03:33 PM
Okay... I'm thinking limitations on magic items.

Going to update my gunslinger PrC soon.

Could use some feedback on exotic flails-chains-kusarigama PrC, too. I was thinking flurry strikes, extra reach... what else?
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on August 22, 2006, 10:20:12 AM
I think both the kusari-gama and spiked chain are such awesome weapons they do not need a prestige class dedicated to them.  What a wielder of these weapons needs is feats, which he can get from Fighter.  You could also use the CW's Exotic Weapon's Expert, though I'm not fond of it for flavor reasons.  Things like iaijutsu are good for kusari-gama, or sneak attack.  But these are also already available to base characters.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on August 23, 2006, 01:39:52 PM
Yeah... still. I am, after all, a player-centric DM... and if players want a flails-n-chains freak, who am I to say no? Especially when one of my races' favored weapons are flails and chains. Speaking of which, I was thinking of pulling a Link move and letting players pull foes towards themselves with their weapons. Touch attack and opposed strength check, whaddaya say?
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on August 23, 2006, 05:43:12 PM
It sounds like a reverse bull rush.  I don't see any reason it couldn't work (rules-wise), but it should basically count as a bull rush and be a full round action.  No in terms of realism, I think it unlikely you could quite do what Link does with a grapple-shot using a kusari-gama (the person seems more likely to lose balance and fall down than just be yanked flying through the air).
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on August 24, 2006, 06:10:58 PM
Meh... it's only a five-foot pull, and even then, I'm thinking of replacing the five-foot-square with the square meter. Besides, realism comes second to just plain coolness.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: SA on September 19, 2006, 09:46:41 PM
Darn you! Got there before me!

Seriously though, the principles of reality manipulation in Dystopia involve collapsing wave function and M-Theory.  I'm even using ontological paradoxes (the cyclical non-origin of your Evard's Black Tentacles)!

Not that it's a problem that we're operating on similar principles, but it's often nice when you get there first...

Nevertheless, this is an ingenious use of scientific theory for fantastic purposes, and I look forward to more of your trademark beejazz craziness.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on September 19, 2006, 10:14:53 PM
lol... "trademark Beejazz craziness."
I really like the sound of that.
I was kind of worried I'd just come off as being lame.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Xeviat on September 20, 2006, 02:35:25 AM
Beejazz, I wasn't sure if I should put this here or in your crunch thread:

You have the armor DR as follows:
*Leather's provide DR/piercing
*Chains provide DR/bludgeoning
*Plates provide DR/slashing

I recently learned how to weave chain and I've been talking with lots of armorers lately, and I think you have things a little off. The weapons used to deal with plate armor were typically bludgeoning and piecing weapons (specifically hammers, maces, and picks); blades did next to nothing against plate (unless you used a huge two hander, but then the goal is to bend the plate around a muscle like the bicep so the arm can't be bent).

Chain, on the other hand, provides very little protection against piercing attacks, and moderate protection vs. bludgeoning. Chain works by keeping blades off your skin and by widening the impact; it's like the difference between being hit with a 1 pound hammer and a 1 pound pillow: same weight, larger distribution. Chain is never worn against the skin, it has padding underneith, so the two together pad out the attacks.

As for leather, leather seems to absorb and deflect the same all around. Leather armor is not supple, it is at the very minimum work hardened (usually it will be wax or oil hardened). Technically it is almost as protective as steel plate (though it takes less effort to destroy leather armor than plate armor).

I think if you want variety, you could try this: leave leather AC and DR alone, but increase the DR provided by chain while decreasing it's AC, and increase the AC of plate while slightly decreasing it's AC. Plate protects by keeping attacks out, while chain protects by padding attacks. Then, make the DR DR/adamantine (since adamantine cuts though hardness like butter). Adamantine armor can then change the DR to DR/-.

Let me know what you think.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on September 20, 2006, 05:33:56 PM
Wait...
This is awesome!
Game-balance wise I can't be sure, though...
I made class-based AC and armor AC stack on the assumption that DR could be pretty easily overcome. This might put the advantage on the defense, thereby prolonging fights.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Xeviat on September 21, 2006, 01:03:54 AM
=)
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Xeviat on September 21, 2006, 11:18:29 PM
Beejazz, I have a suggestion for your Critical misses; for thrown weapons, have the weapon become lost on the battle field somehow (search DC 20 to find, or DC 15 plus a size modifier). Perhaps it gets stuck in the dirt, lost in a shadow; the description would depend on the terrain.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on September 22, 2006, 05:15:40 PM
Um... probably not. Losing a weapon you wouldn't be able to use again in the short term doesn't really add to the depth of the tactics. In the long term, you might be really hurting the player's wealth. Especially if it was a magic weapon.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Ghost on September 24, 2006, 11:53:11 PM
It looks very awesome, especially the explanations for the gods. I also liked the use of the physics.

But I haven't seen the part where it says what the Sayoshant is. Do you have a link to more information?
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on September 25, 2006, 12:41:15 AM
Sayoshant is ripping off the Zarathustrian messiah.

You can't have the end of the world without a pseudo-Christ/Antichrist thing going for you.

I promise I'll explain it better than that later, but for now it'll have to suffice.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on September 25, 2006, 12:41:15 AM
Sayoshant is ripping off the Zarathustrian messiah.

You can't have the end of the world without a pseudo-Christ/Antichrist thing going for you.

I promise I'll explain it better than that later, but for now it'll have to suffice.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Seraph on October 10, 2006, 11:44:03 PM
Perhaps you have posted this somewhere, but I have not seen it:  You said guns basically work like exotic crossbows, so what differentiates them?(besides often requiring a extra feat to use)  Why would someone choose a gun over a crossbow?  Do they deal more damage?  have a better crit multiplyer?
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on October 10, 2006, 11:57:11 PM
I pretty much use the stats out of the DMG. Higher damage, decent critical threat (as there are no multipliers in my system)
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on October 11, 2006, 12:17:06 AM
Updated armor. I am very pleased with Xeviat's idea, and with my solution to keeping DR beatable.
*toots own horn*
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on October 20, 2006, 01:34:09 PM
I totally missed this as setting of the week (been kind of busy lately), but I'm trying to catch up.

I'll review the secrets page you link to.

1) Origins of Humanity
This is very cool.  A good twist involving a race at the most basic level is always (as is a similar twist to a religion) because it forces us to question our most basic beliefs.  Like myself, you seem willing to blend science fiction and fantasy without delving into ridiculousness with little explanaition, which I admire.

Aboleths are wonderful.  They make a great template for Lovecraftian horrors and really make a setting feel darker if done right.

2) Quantum Magic
The theories seem well-thought-out and based on actual sciene.  Kudos.  Also nice to see someone else bother to explain magic as something other than "the magic goddess creates a field/weave/whatever that lets mortals use it."

Game Effects:
1. Someone trying to become God?  The potential for epic conflicts abounds.
2. Interesting.  So that would mean the existence of the aboleths at the same time as humans is a paradox?
3. The possibilities for story ideas with this are grand, but I think you are correct in urging caution here.  Players that feel their actions do not produce definitive results are apt to become frustrated - if events do not unfold based on their actions, they can effectively become impotent.

3) The gods?  Is there another page you have not linked to?  I am lost.  Twists with the gods, like that they are/were human are also great.

Overall:
You have an excellent sense of plot twists and the surprises necessary to keep things fresh and interesting, but manage pull these off with enough explaination they don't seem forced or arbitrary.  Good work.  I recommend more secrets and mysteries.

Mysteries for non-human races may be good.  Perhaps (if your aboleths are as advanced as mine) the aboleths created some of the other races through a genetic experiment.  Maybe the "gods" created others as part of their grand plans.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on October 20, 2006, 02:16:37 PM
Thanks for the review! I'm glad to have made such a good impression... it was what I was going for, after all.

As for the gods, my only work on them so far has been in the rules, crunch, and overview thread. Just the demiurgical pantheon so far, but it should answer your questions about them... also IIRC, I mentioned racial origin in the same post.

Secrets is going to occasionally reference overview (or even threads for specific nations) so it could get a little confusing.
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: Seraph on October 22, 2006, 12:51:04 PM
I like it.  Your magic system is very unique.  As to the Collapsing Wave Function, you haven't by any chance seen What the Bleep Do We Know? have you?  They use the exact sameelectrons are everywhere until you look at them bit.
So the origins of your humans (while not that of traditional fantasy) does not necessarily mean that the world is any more advanced than traditional fantasy.  
I once tried to do something vaguely like your collapsing reality, but you did it much better.  One thing I would be wary about is how would PCs retain memory of events that never happened?  Why would the change affect everyone but them?  
Title: Diis Manibus: Discussion
Post by: beejazz on October 22, 2006, 05:41:58 PM
What the Bleep: Yep. Seen it. I don't know how much of this stuff I buy, but it is chock-full of scifi premise gold.
Tech: Well... as I've said before there are guns. I haven't really gotten around to the ancient artifacts yet, but... I might have mentioned subways and massive hovercraft somewhere. I'm almost sure I mentioned subways (oh, and underground fungus cultures... a nod to Prelude to Foundation) in the Nompelle thread.

And as to the last question... why indeed. I suppose I could pull something out of m-theory and animism. Or you could go with something where the heroes are somehow special (which they probably are for some reason or another... there's gotta be some reason why they of all people are sucked into the middle of all this).