The Campaign Builder's Guild

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/vga-10-elder-scrolls/708369

It has been announced!

And its in SKYRIM!!!!

And it has DRAGONS!!!

And I hope it isn't an MMO...

[spoiler]
FUCK YEAH!
[/spoiler]

Meh.  Oblivion was disappointing and I wasn't a fan of FO3 so I don't see myself enjoying this so much.

...but it does have the counterpart culture to the Vikingr so I think I might check it out.  Here's to hoping for better map design.

M.

Here's hoping they somehow manage to combine the graphics and combat of Oblivion with the complex story and world-building genius of Morrowind (and don't make it an MMORPG).

Haha and I was just playing oblivion too. To be honest I hope they polish up the character creator and lip synch a bit more. Oblivion was nice graphics wise but the humanoid characters themselves (both player and npc's) looked a little ugly (though this was true in morrowind as well).

I think they looked better in Morrowind, from the perspective of not trying to push too far.  Oblivion is more advanced, but it doesn't seem to go all the way with the character models.  The result is exactly as Nomadic put it - ugly.

That said, the combat in Oblivion needs to be more fluid.  Weapon swings felt robotic and stiff, even compared to Morrowind's.  Also, where the hell are my suriken, spears, halberds and crossbows?

M.

Quote from: Cancerous CheI think they looked better in Morrowind, from the perspective of not trying to push too far.  Oblivion is more advanced, but it doesn't seem to go all the way with the character models.  The result is exactly as Nomadic put it - ugly.

That said, the combat in Oblivion needs to be more fluid.  Weapon swings felt robotic and stiff, even compared to Morrowind's.  Also, where the hell are my suriken, spears, halberds and crossbows?

M.

I don't want to start an Oblivion vs Morrowind argument here but the combat in Morrowind makes Oblivion's combat look like a masterpiece of code and design by comparison. Morrowind has a number of things over Oblivion (storyline, design, etc) but combat ain't one of them :P

I think you misunderstand.  Not important, though.  I do wonder if this new one will have the great diversity of weapons and equipment seen in Morrowind; I quite liked wandering around in segmentata-inspired armor, wacking things with my wakizashi.

M>

Know what I think the ideal character design is? The one being worked on by CCP for the Incarna release. If bethesda can make their characters look that real then I'll be more than happy.

picture related:

(http://assets.motherboard.tv/post_images/assets/000/007/312/1289999237eve_large.jpg?1290009465)

Agreed.  They did a good job with that program.

M.

For me, the really impressive bit will be if they manage to stick to that release date.

I agree with Che that they should have a more diverse and unique set of weapons/armour.  Morrowind's atmosphere was so amazing - bizarre pterodactyl thingies and insectile armour and architecture made of fungus.  I loved a lot of things about Oblivion and I tend to seesaw back and forth as to which I prefer, but a lot of its imagery was so banal... medieval Europe, yeah, we haven't seen that before Oblivion.  I loved Shivering Isles though.

Oh and no more leveled lists.  It was lulz when brigands in full dwemer armor tried to stick me up for small sums of money - simply selling their gear would land them a penthouse in the Imperial City.

M.

Ha yeah.  Like a thug mugging someone with a bazooka for some loose change.

GIMMIE THE CASSSSSSSHHHHHHHH!

I really hope the world builder is better, too.  I never mastered it for Oblivion because it was difficult to work with the 3d grass as you couldn't see most of it in the editor.  Texture application and removal was also clunky.  I had wanted to make a total conversion with a few friends but the map editor was too much of a turn off.  Crysis has set a new benchmark in map editor software - let's see if Bethsoft can catch up.

M.

Quote from: Cancerous CheOh and no more leveled lists.  It was lulz when brigands in full dwemer armor tried to stick me up for small sums of money - simply selling their gear would land them a penthouse in the Imperial City.

M.

Leveled lists are alright, the problem is that they were bonkers in Oblivion. The majority of brigands in Morrowind used Leveled lists too, but they had a cap at certain kinds of armor or weapons.

Hell, I'd like to see an economy that actually makes sense.

+1 on economics.  And, if possible, a more involved melee system.  It would be cool if spears could actually keep things at bay, and we could ride horses into combat a la Mount and Blade.

M.

[blockquote=Stargate]Hell, I'd like to see an economy that actually makes sense. [/blockquote]I think this is the least likely thing to actually be implemented, sadly.  Standard fantasy RPG game mechanics and realistic economics are quite difficult to reconcile, and the majority of players just won't care or notice.

But at least it'll have dragons!

I gotta say I'm a wee bit disappointed it's not going to be on the Sumerset Isles.  Ah well.  Hopefully we'll get a really harsh, tooth-and-claw style world, as opposed to the relatively cushy cities of Oblivion (Kvatch excluded) and pastoral landscapes.

The changes I would like to see (from oblivion) .

- Go back to the large number of skills Morrowind had
- More Voice Actors (akin to Fallout 3)
- The introduction of a Mass Effect-style Codex system (to flesh out the world and quests).
- A cap on the gear random enemies use (so no more bandits in daedric armor)
- Re-introduction of travel routes (like Morrowind's Silt Striders and boats)
- Re-Introduction of Mark and Recall spells
- Mounted Combat
- A way for me to tie a horse to a tree/pole so he doesn't run off while I'm in a dungeon.
- Elimination of the global "YOU'RE A HORSE THIEF" mechanic

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Know what I want. No more psychic guards that instantly know that you committed a crime whether you did it 5 feet away or 500 miles out in the wilderness. I use a plugin that helps with this to some extent but I'd like to be able to play an assassin class where I can actually still walk around town after knocking out someone I don't like (provided I didn't get caught).

And on a side note about the economy I think that someone actually released a plugin for the game that tweaks the economy to be more realistic. Plugins are so awesome, in fact I think that's one thing Bethesda got REALLY right with oblivion... don't like something? There's probably someone out there that made a mod that fixes it, and it's piss easy to install them. Just drop into a folder, open up the oblivion data menu and check the checkbox and you're good to go.

Elder Scrolls V did not seem nearly as big an announcement as the first teaser for Mass Effect 3.

Quote from: FREAKINAWESOMEHORSEElder Scrolls V did not seem nearly as big an announcement as the first teaser for Mass Effect 3.

Isn't releasing two things this awesome so close together against the law? And Eve Incarna is supposed to come out sometime in '11... not to mention they're about to start filming for the hobbit (in February I believe). This is just too much awesome.

Quote from: FREAKINAWESOMEHORSEElder Scrolls V did not seem nearly as big an announcement as the first teaser for Mass Effect 3.

I'm psyched for both!

Next year is going to be game heavy - Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, The Elder Scrolls V and The Old Republic... It's a lot but I think I can manage!

Quote from: NomadicAnd on a side note about the economy I think that someone actually released a plugin for the game that tweaks the economy to be more realistic. Plugins are so awesome, in fact I think that's one thing Bethesda got REALLY right with oblivion... don't like something? There's probably someone out there that made a mod that fixes it, and it's piss easy to install them. Just drop into a folder, open up the oblivion data menu and check the checkbox and you're good to go.

Arguably, they had that right back in Morrowind.

As for what I meant by the economy, I meant more one that at least looks like something reasonable. I mean, come on, you've got the hunger, thirst, and 'want shiny object' stuff in the RAI, so demand is semi-taken care of. Production can be implemented pretty easily by treating plants as refillable containers, and making smiths and such actually make their items.

From there, its a matter of regulation and making sure the micro-economy doesn't tank (which would, I think, be somewhat hilarious).

Though one that doesn't leave me post-game with enough cash to purchase the entire continent would be nice.

Quote from: Stargate525

Quote from: NomadicAnd on a side note about the economy I think that someone actually released a plugin for the game that tweaks the economy to be more realistic. Plugins are so awesome, in fact I think that's one thing Bethesda got REALLY right with oblivion... don't like something? There's probably someone out there that made a mod that fixes it, and it's piss easy to install them. Just drop into a folder, open up the oblivion data menu and check the checkbox and you're good to go.

Arguably, they had that right back in Morrowind.

As for what I meant by the economy, I meant more one that at least looks like something reasonable. I mean, come on, you've got the hunger, thirst, and 'want shiny object' stuff in the RAI, so demand is semi-taken care of. Production can be implemented pretty easily by treating plants as refillable containers, and making smiths and such actually make their items.

From there, its a matter of regulation and making sure the micro-economy doesn't tank (which would, I think, be somewhat hilarious).

Though one that doesn't leave me post-game with enough cash to purchase the entire continent would be nice.

IMO oblivion's mod support is far and away superior to morrowind's. On the economy thing what you said is basically what the guy did.

Quote from: Cancerous CheGIMMIE THE CASSSSSSSHHHHHHHH!

...

Did I perchance hear a 5th element quote?

Loved Morrowind, was somewhat disappointed by Oblivion... There was no real distinction between character choices and the world was somewhat dull. It just wasn't as... interesting as Morrowind. So I have mixed feelings about Skyrim. But here's hoping for the best :D

Yes, yes you did :>

Also, I hope the NPC conversations aren't so...robotic.

Hello.
*cough*
I saw a mudcrab yesterday!
Nasty creatures.
<silence>
*cough*
Goodbye!

M.

IMO shivering isles is how Oblivion should have been in terms of design/feel/etc. If only it hadn't just been a small expansion (seriously Sheogorath was the most awesome character in TES IV). Anyhow...

Things I do want to see in skyrim that were in oblivion:
- Absolutely gorgeous landscapes
- Highly Charismatic characters (Sheogorath, Count Hassildor, The Gray Fox, etc etc etc)
- The general feel of combat (though melee fighting could use a slight speeding up)

Things I don't want to see in skyrim that were in oblivion:
- Ugly Humanoid Characters
- Awkward background conversations
- The Lusty Argonian Maid you sick freaks

Things I want to see in skyrim that were in morrowind:
- Highly original landscapes
- An immersive and interesting storyline
- The incredible diversity of items

Things I don't want to see in skyrim that were in morrowind:
- The combat system
- The difficulty of finding certain things for the storyline quest
- Cliffracers... LEAVE ME ALONE YOU WORTHLESS FLYING RATS

Quote from: Nomadic- The difficulty of finding certain things for the storyline quest

That problem is gone forever with the compass (for better or worse).  

I'd actually like that compass gone as it makes things TOO easy. The problem I had with Morrowind was confusing quest instructions leaving me lost as what to do (me and my friend still joke about his week long quest to find the Dwemer Puzzle Box). Clearer instructions without a direct pointer would be awesome.

The difference between having an automap and that compass are minimal.  Mounted Combat ftw; horses are all but useless when you have fast travel.

M.

I thought the social minigames in Oblivion were pretty terrible - stilted and immersion-breaking.

Ugh.  I had forgotten about those.  It needs to go.  Mini-games are cool, but not stuff like that.

Speaking of which, maybe we should have some kind of built-in board game or card game vs the AI...imagine Tameriel's version of Shogi or something.

M.

Quote from: Cancerous CheThe difference between having an automap and that compass are minimal.

Not sure what you mean by this

Automaps lead you right to your objectives just as surely as that little compass do-hicky.  There's a mod to remove those, anyway.

M.

Quote from: Cancerous CheAutomaps lead you right to your objectives just as surely as that little compass do-hicky.  There's a mod to remove those, anyway.

M.

You've lost me, did someone make a comment about automaps... what is an automap anyhow?

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Cancerous CheAutomaps lead you right to your objectives just as surely as that little compass do-hicky.  There's a mod to remove those, anyway.

M.

You've lost me, did someone make a comment about automaps... what is an automap anyhow?

You made a comment about not wanting Morrowind style of "Well go up north and look around for a bit... I'm sure you'll spot it!" To which I replied - any game Beth makes will have the compass. To which you replied the Compass makes the game too easy. To which Che commented that Auto-map, a feature very common in games, is just as "easy button-y" as the Compass.

I think they need something but the Compass is way too easy. A simple pin mark on the world map would be more than enough. It gets you to the area but leaves the hard work up to you.

P.S. I had a hell of a time trying to find one of those yurt-dwelling Ash hippie dunmer tribes... Ugh.

I think Che lost me with the auto-map comment as I don't know what an automap is (at least I'm pretty sure the auto-map I'm familiar with is nothing like what che is talking about) and more importantly I don't know what it has to do with my comment about removing the compass.

And yes a simple pin on the map would be awesome. You have to go to this general area and you are looking for this person/thing that can be found in place named "x". I won't show you exactly where they are but I will give you an idea of the area they are in and it won't take you forever to find it as long as you pay attention to the aforementioned clues.

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/24/skyrim-building-better-combat.aspx

Wow, a ton of info in that single article.

To sum it up:

- TES V will allow you to equip weapons AND spells to BOTH of your hands. This allows you to dual wield two weapons or cast your two favorite spells, one right after the other, without ever touching the dial/equip screen.

- The repetitive nature of Combat in previous iterations of the series will be replaced with a more fluid physics engine that will force players to think about positioning - if you get off balance, you're going to get hurt.  

- Mysticism is gone and its spells distributed amongst the other Schools.

- Spells now have multiple ways of being cast including the traditional fire and forget as well as sustained effects. For example you can click the trigger and cast a fire ball or you can hold the trigger down and get something more like a flame thrower.

- Bows are going to become more deadly allowing for more one-shots however to balance this out the Bows take longer to shoot and you are very vulnerable to melee when shooting. Furthermore, arrows, and especially special arrows, will become much more rare.

- Daggers will become much more powerful if used for sneak attacks (a developer stating they'll do 10x damage on a sneak attack).

Also moving the level cap to 50+. Early leveling will be quick while later leveling will take ages (especially after 50). Each level brings perks that help the character 'grow organically'.
  I nearly pooped me pants when this months Game Informer showed up at my doorstep.

 per NPC conversations:
   They hired a shitload more voice actors.
   Conversations dont have that weird zoomed in fixed camera angle thing. NPCs will walk around while they talk to you, do some little tasks like poke the fire etc.
    I also read that your choices in the game will trigger certain NPC encounters...for instance if your a a bad ass mage...another mage with something to prove will challenge you to a duel randomly in a city. Something that would not happen if you had made a fighter type character.
 

People are trashing Morrowind combat but there were times I was threatened in battle in that game. In Oblivion, that didn't happen. The only thing that ever took me out (even with the difficulty up some) was trolls. Those damn trolls...

Everything they're saying sounds pretty cool but this is Bethesda. This is probably the most unreliable major player in the industry. They'd quickly go under if they had any serious competition in the style of game they make.

Their coding ability needs to improve. Bethesda games are always lacking easy, obvious things and very buggy. With that track record, they're programming their own engine! Even if they were better, I don't think they've given themselves enough time to do it well.

Also, I still haven't heard anything about multiplayer. WAKE UP, BETHESDA! Two Worlds 2 will be the Skyrrim killer. I'm going to be buying that at midnight tonight.

I think that the Elder Scrolls really needs something like hardcore mode from New Vegas. In fact, ever game needs that. Yes, even football games.

I don't want any of this to sound like I don't love Bethesda games because I do. I'm just being honest.

Also, I don't like that duel idea. That sort of thing might be cool once but quickly feels unnatural and lame. "You look like the sneaky sort! What have you been getting into?"

I'm expecting this game to be a trainwreck. If it is, I won't be surprised. If it's any better than that, I'll be pleased.

Oh yeah, and about the compass thing...
I really like the way that it's done in Borderlands, or even WoW. Show the area but don't lead to the exact location.

Quote from: Elemental_Elf - Mysticism is gone and its spells distributed amongst the other Schools.

- Bows are going to become more deadly allowing for more one-shots however to balance this out the Bows take longer to shoot and you are very vulnerable to melee when shooting. Furthermore, arrows, and especially special arrows, will become much more rare.

- Daggers will become much more powerful if used for sneak attacks (a developer stating they'll do 10x damage on a sneak attack).
[/quote]
Good, I think. Both of those worked much better at lower level, but bows & backstabbing just seemed to get frustrating once you got past 10 or so. (Especially backstabbing with bows ^_^)

Quote from: brainface

Quote from: Elemental_Elf - Mysticism is gone and its spells distributed amongst the other Schools.

I should have said this, too. That was probably my favorite school of magic.

I also have a problem with changing the mechanics of bows. I liked them the way they were. I got plenty of one shots (or close) and liked shooting not taking too long. I made a lot of archer characters and they were usually my favorites.

Clicked a link on the article to a related article and discovered they're bringing in something called dragon shouts. Thought it sounded interesting so read into it more...

my face when I realized they were talking about thu'um

(http://myfacewhen.com/images/183.jpg)

I will apparently need to find out what that is.

Is there anything SOLID saying there will actually be dragons in this game?

Quote from: Ninja D!I will apparently need to find out what that is.

Is there anything SOLID saying there will actually be dragons in this game?

yes...also

thu'um (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thu%27um)

As far as card games, I want Acromage. Who cares if it's not the right setting? I want it!

Dragons are indeed confirmed, both in writing and screenshots-- along with an encounter with one in one of the early demos that GI (Game Informer) reviewed.

Speaking of: this (http://www.gameinformer.com/p/esv.aspx) page seemed to have a bit more information than the other URL a little above. Not sure how much more that's relevant, but still. Novemeber 11th is the current release date, and I am hoping mightily that it holds at that.

In other news-- from the screenshots, it looks like they did a serious overhaul on the appearances of NPCs, which I am all for-- I thought most of the characters in the games were always pretty fugly (Even games like ME2 and DA:0, I thought a lot of characters looked quite hideous, so it may just be me).

I'm curious to see how 2-handed weapons will work in light of the "2 hands, 2 weapons" concept. Will you be able to cast magic with one hand, when you aren't swinging your greatsword around? If not, it seems like they are going to have to seriously pimp out 2-handed weapons in order to balance the lack of versatlity and... badassery, of dual-wielding magic.

The same with shields, I think. Is equipping a shield going to be worth losing that slot when you can just use magic instead? Without consideration, I think it's almost going to be silly NOT to dual-wield swords and sorcery, but they have plenty of time to work that out, I'm sure.

And Dragon Shouts seem awesome. Basic, at first, but still awesome-- the real question, though, is the why the MC can understand Draconic Words of Power.

Also? You gain more Words of Power by killing dragons and taking their souls. There will be copious amounts of dragon carnage, in that case, it appears.

Quote from: CoyoteCamouflageThe same with shields, I think. Is equipping a shield going to be worth losing that slot when you can just use magic instead? Without consideration, I think it's almost going to be silly NOT to dual-wield swords and sorcery, but they have plenty of time to work that out, I'm sure.

The article mentioned you will be able to shield bash your enemies, thus getting them totally off balance and ready for a massive hit with your weapon.

I think it'll be cool to be a Battle Mage who dual wields  Magic and a Shield. Get in close, shield bash the enemy, then flame thrower him to death!

Quote from: Elemental_Elf I think it'll be cool to be a Battle Mage who dual wields  Magic and a Shield. Get in close, shield bash the enemy, then flame thrower him to death!

I hope you'll be able to do the opposite as well--wield flameshield or resist frost in the left hand and charge forward with a longsword in the right. It seems like the system they're trying to set up will be great for general fighter magery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c9eGtyqz4gY

That's all I got to say.

We have Screenshots!

 (http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/182643_496598861403_131368351403_6226387_4341385_n.jpg)

(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/182739_496598911403_131368351403_6226388_3548322_n.jpg)

(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/179831_496598976403_131368351403_6226391_5901826_n.jpg)

(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/168727_496599006403_131368351403_6226393_6001308_n.jpg)

(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/168091_496599036403_131368351403_6226395_3944807_n.jpg)

(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/168351_496599051403_131368351403_6226397_514035_n.jpg)

(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/180363_496599086403_131368351403_6226398_5016422_n.jpg)

(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/180707_496599131403_131368351403_6226400_7419111_n.jpg)

(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/182779_496599166403_131368351403_6226402_3158386_n.jpg)

(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/179879_496598931403_131368351403_6226390_1994586_n.jpg)

This game is gonna waste so much of my time.

Looks like enchanting skill is making a comeback. Not sure if i like that--it just seems like such a necessary skill to have.

Kinda curious what that "aft" is on the skill's list.

Quote from: brainfaceThis game is gonna waste so much of my time.

Looks like enchanting skill is making a comeback. Not sure if i like that--it just seems like such a necessary skill to have.

Kinda curious what that "aft" is on the skill's list.

It going to kill everyone's free time :D

I like that Enchanting is back, I hope this means items will regenerate their magicka based on your enchanting skill, instead of being forced to go to town to get them recharged like you had to in Oblivion.  

Maybe the "Aft" skill is Shaft... As in Quarterstaff or Polearm?

$20 says the aft is speechcraft

Quote from: Nomadic$20 says the aft is speechcraft

:huh:  :-|  x.  :explode:

Gameplay footage has been released for the game... and it is 9 kinds of awesome.

Check it out (http://kotaku.com/#!5768421/the-first-spectacular-gameplay-trailer-for-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim)

http://pc.ign.com/articles/116/1164053p1.html

Big changes in store for Skyrim.

There are only three attributes - Health, Magicka and Stamina. There are now only 18 skills. Experience is gained differently now as well, you get more xp for using the skills you use more often.

There will be 5 major cities and 9 towns. You can mess with their local economies by destroying their infrastructure (kill people in a mine and suddenly metal in the town disappears, which means weapons and armor disappear).

Fallout 3 style Perks will be added to the game to making leveling more interesting.

Dragons will be smart and scary, so watch out.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfThere are only three attributes - Health, Magicka and Stamina. There are now only 18 skills.

When someone on SA said Elder Scrolls VI will only have two stats, 'Attack' and 'Defend', I assumed they were just trolling. Maybe they were right...

Quote from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Qayup[/url]

Quote from: Ninja D!

Quote from: Elemental_ElfThere are only three attributes - Health, Magicka and Stamina. There are now only 18 skills.

When someone on SA said Elder Scrolls VI will only have two stats, 'Attack' and 'Defend', I assumed they were just trolling. Maybe they were right...

This artcile was linked by the official TES V Facebook page, so its accurate.

I at once both approve of the system concept and don't. I like it because it's awesome, and I don't like it because they totally jacked it from me. The whole classless skill based system with skill perks was my idea. Then again I jacked the base skill system from vreeg so I suppose it's just a continuation of the never-ending cycle of idea theft.

The 3 abilities doesn't sound too good to me, since it will lessen diversity between characters. The perks might help though. I don't mind skill-based experience, but Oblivions system kind of bothered me since it seemed more like a chore and you got very little out of levelling a skill except some invisible increase in the underlying stats and numbers.

3 abilities is enough. They're all reactive anyway: Health responds to damage, Stamina responds to Physical activity and Magicka responds to... well, duh.

The skills look like the abilities' proactive counterparts. As long as the skills are diverse enough and experience is scarce enough (but significant enough) to require specialisation, 18 should do fine.

If you haven't checked out the video in EE's link, you ought to.

All in all, everything I've seen of ESV suggests it won't be like Oblivion.

Quote from: Salacious AngelAs long as the skills are diverse enough and experience is scarce enough (but significant enough) to require specialisation, 18 should do fine.

From what I see you gain experience in the skills that you use (like in celtricia). So you don't get a level up screen to pick skills after x experience. Instead you level up individual skills when you've used them enough.

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Salacious AngelAs long as the skills are diverse enough and experience is scarce enough (but significant enough) to require specialisation, 18 should do fine.

From what I see you gain experience in the skills that you use (like in celtricia). So you don't get a level up screen to pick skills after x experience. Instead you level up individual skills when you've used them enough.

They said, in the video, that you do level up and perks are your reward as well as leveling will go faster than it did in Oblivion. The thing I have a question about is how perks will work exactly, will they simply be given after x number of increases across all the skills you use or will perks be given or whether perks will be specific to each skill, thus giving you very specific perks that allow you to do cool new things with that specific skill. Or a mix of both.

Quote from: Elemental_Elf

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Salacious AngelAs long as the skills are diverse enough and experience is scarce enough (but significant enough) to require specialisation, 18 should do fine.

From what I see you gain experience in the skills that you use (like in celtricia). So you don't get a level up screen to pick skills after x experience. Instead you level up individual skills when you've used them enough.

They said, in the video, that you do level up and perks are your reward as well as leveling will go faster than it did in Oblivion. The thing I have a question about is how perks will work exactly, will they simply be given after x number of increases across all the skills you use or will perks be given or whether perks will be specific to each skill, thus giving you very specific perks that allow you to do cool new things with that specific skill. Or a mix of both.

Never said you don't level up, just said that you level up differently now. Basically what I'm getting from everything I've read and seen it works like this:

- You use a skill
- You gain experience in that skill for using it
- When you gain enough exp that skill levels up
- After so many levels in the skill you get a perk point for that skill that you can allocate to it's perk tree unlocking a cool new ability.

So basically it's the mare eternus leveling system... bloody thieves :P

That system does make a bit more sense. Going away from levels in the traditional sense is goo.

Mmm yes. Goo indeed.

One must have goo.

That's what I get for posting from my phone, I guess. Especially while so tired (Minecraft is a cruel mistress). I may just have to name my first Skyrim character 'Goo' now.

http://au.ign.com/videos/2011/04/18/skyrims-dragons-are-serious-business

Did we all see this one?

8 bit rendition of Skyrim's theme! http://youtu.be/qLdtHsBfImo

I'll try to find it again sometime, since it came from some German site but I have already seen one Skyrim interview where they spend half their time defending the game being inferior to Morrowind. I thought that was hilarious. One thing that disturbed me about it, though, was that they seem to think that people only preferred the setting of Morrowind, not the mechanics or gameplay...I really liked Morrowind best in every way. I hate that they have cut down on skills so much.

Quote from: Ninja D!I'll try to find it again sometime, since it came from some German site but I have already seen one Skyrim interview where they spend half their time defending the game being inferior to Morrowind. I thought that was hilarious. One thing that disturbed me about it, though, was that they seem to think that people only preferred the setting of Morrowind, not the mechanics or gameplay...I really liked Morrowind best in every way. I hate that they have cut down on skills so much.

Morrowind is just one of those games that captured people's imaginations - they loved everything about it and could even forgive the lame combat system.

I don't think gamers are as kind these days, at least not Console gamers...

Quote from: Admiral E. Elf

Quote from: Ninja D!I'll try to find it again sometime, since it came from some German site but I have already seen one Skyrim interview where they spend half their time defending the game being inferior to Morrowind. I thought that was hilarious. One thing that disturbed me about it, though, was that they seem to think that people only preferred the setting of Morrowind, not the mechanics or gameplay...I really liked Morrowind best in every way. I hate that they have cut down on skills so much.

Morrowind is just one of those games that captured people's imaginations - they loved everything about it and could even forgive the lame combat system.

I don't think gamers are as kind these days, at least not Console gamers...

Gamers have been spoiled. As a result alot of us have ended up with preconceived notions and/or a sense of entitlement as to what a game developer is "required" to give us. Morrowind basically came in at the tail end of an era in gaming where it was still a niche hobby. As gamers people were a bit more willing to look past the flaws to see the good things, there was I feel still a sense of wonder at the new things game developers were coming up with. Gaming has gone mainstream and now even soccer mom's have their own category of games tailored to their expectations. I'll admit that I have a touch of this, it's why I wasn't able to enjoy starcraft 2 (and no longer enjoy starcraft tbh) while I loved the series when it was somewhat new. Of course it's gone the other way for me in some cases. Take Morrowind for example, I couldn't stand it back when it was new, and now I'm more willing to go give it another try. Though I think that in part is connected to my increased roleplaying and the resulting increase in appreciation for good storytelling (and Morrowind does have a good story).

anyhow that's my 2 cp

Morrowind had atmosphere and a real sense of three-dimensional geography. Oblivion felt geographically flat, and its fantasy setting was conventional. (This is no judgment on the game as a whole, however)

I could forgive a hell of a lot in a game if it produced the sense of immersion that Morrowind did. That's why I love Shadow of the Colossus so much: you only ever did four things (ride, climb, shoot your bow, and stab giants in the head) but you really felt like you were somewhere while you did it.

If Skyrim can produce that kind of immersion I will play it for a million hours. Even if all I can do is jump, talk, and swing a big old stick.

EDIT: on the subject of SotC, no game I've played has made a horse seem so alive as Agro was. Hopefully the ones in Skyrim have decent AI and independent pathfinding.

I should probably try and find some of those great old games everyone is always talking about at some point...

I loved Morrowind (although I never completed it), but disliked Oblivion. The scaling system was arbitrary, the setting conventional, the skill system dull, and there was little true enjoyment to be gained from exploration. You didn't find yourself thinking "shit, this is an awesome place" very often, if at all.  

Quote from: Superfluous CrowI should probably try and find some of those great old games everyone is always talking about at some point...

I loved Morrowind (although I never completed it), but disliked Oblivion. The scaling system was arbitrary, the setting conventional, the skill system dull, and there was little true enjoyment to be gained from exploration. You didn't find yourself thinking "shit, this is an awesome place" very often, if at all.  

I thought it was ok... then I installed shivering isles and it pretty much stomped morrowind IMO. I wish they could swap those two so shivering isles was the big main expansive campaign and the oblivion gate one was just a little side thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQENnvkcC7I

'gasm

To quote a youtube viewer commenting on Arkham City:

"[Batman] then followed by Skyrim. The end of the year is the end of MY world. Fuck 2012"

Not to mention Uncharted 3, Dark Souls, Deus X, Gears of War, Max Payne...

Oh yeah. and the Witcher 2 for 360!

Also: what's the deal with the Elder Scrolls characters being prisoners? Is there any metaphysical backstory concerning that, or do you think it's merely a matter of convenience?

Witcher 2 is going to be on the 360? *glee*

I think the prisoner thing is just lazy writing. It works for having you start out with nothing exactly where they want you.

I don't think the Prisoner bit is lazy, I think its the easiest way of making each and every each characters' past meaningless, which allows greater focus on the here and now of the game. Plus, its tradition!

As for the trailer, I watched it live yesterday. Loved everything about it, especially the 2 Weapon Fighting. One thing that struck me was that it didn't look like he was blocking when using the 2 swords, so I wonder if you can only block with a shield now.

He visibly blocks with the left sword, just with horrible timing.

I'm excited about this game in so many ways. I'be been playing Oblivion, New Vegas and Red Dead Redemption all at once, so I've really got the free-roaming bug. (Oh how I wish someone would use RDR's RAGE engine to make an rpg... New Vegas looks so damn bland by comparison!)

Quote from: Ninja DWitcher 2 is going to be on the 360?

They're apparently bringing it out on the PS3 as well, but at a later date. Probably 2012.

To read into the prisoner thing a little bit more than one probably should, starting as a convict and becoming a hero emphasizes a kind of rags-to-riches arc, a dynamic which ultimately lies at the heart of almost all RPGs (adventure and gain experience to grow in power/wealth/status/ability).  As the stars/destiny seem to be important forces in the Elder Scrolls universe it also suggests a kind of predilection on the part of fate for diamond-in-the-rough chosen ones... if the character were born with a silver spoon in their mouth (see Fable III), you expect them to have an epic destiny and do great things.  Not so for a lowlife at the bottom of the barrel, heightening the drama.

I knew there had to be a reason why I always name my Elder Scrolls characters Aladdin.

(Seriously. Redguard thief. Rocking the ninja skillz)

>>if the character were born with a silver spoon in their mouth (see Fable III), you expect them to have an epic destiny and do great things. Not so for a lowlife at the bottom of the barrel, heightening the drama.

I actually prefer starting with the rich character; many if not most games seem to start one at the bottom of the barrel (e.g. Witcher, Elder Scrolls IV, Fallout:NV (weak beginning), etc.). Starting in a prison is trite.

Fallout 3 played a good medium- you are the child of someone important and then you have that happy life taken away from you.

I think the fall from grace, accompanied by building up to reattain something is a much better motivator. The person knows what glory has been theirs, so they need to work to attain the apple before their eyes.

Mass Effect 1 and 2 also had good ways to start the game; you know what you are capable of and you have things in your past to live up to in your future.

The Dwarven noble backstory in DA1 was likewise the best because it introduced more drama-- you wanted to get revenge, or redeem yourself, etc.

Characters who come from a life of privilege often have more to live up to and to discover than does a guttersnipe thief, since they don't know how the world really works.

>>I don't think the Prisoner bit is lazy, I think its the easiest way of making each and every each characters' past meaningless, which allows greater focus on the here and now of the game.

Which is really weak. Stories need a beginning a middle and an end. I'd rather my story have meaning to my character based on my character's experiences...to have some sort of locus to roleplay. Starting as a prisoner is only slightly better than "oh, I have amnesia!!!" The only good execution of amnesia that I've seen was Bioshock...and then it was mostly in retrospect as you find out WHY that's an interesting case. Bioshock II, in contrast, was blah and weak in its characterization and history.

It would be interesting to take the prison angle all the way and have your character be keyed to a criminal background story. Then it becomes a question of continued carnage or redemption. In the Elder Scrolls games you are most often "a wrongfully incarcerated hero". With A DESTINY of course.  

EDIT: I don't really know what to think of Skyrim yet... Free roaming is all well and good, but I need some kind of hook before I readily invest insane amounts of time in an RPG. Dragons alone aren't enough to pull me in. I'll probably try it at some point, though.

(the game I'm looking the most forward to is Bioshock: Infinite by the way. That game looks superb.)

>>It would be interesting to take the prison angle all the way and have your character be keyed to a criminal background story. Then it becomes a question of continued carnage or redemption

That would sound better (!) Not great, but better.

[blockquote=Light Dragon]The only good execution of amnesia that I've seen was Bioshock[/blockquote]
Have you ever played Planescape: Torment or Amnesia: The Dark Descent, and if so, what did you think of their handling of amnesia?

Todd Howard has pretty much come straight out and said the reason you are a prisoner is just tradition. Don't look too deeply into it it isn't there for the story it's there as a callback to the series itself. It's kind of the elder scrolls calling card so to speak.

Quote from: Steerpike[blockquote=Light Dragon]The only good execution of amnesia that I've seen was Bioshock[/blockquote]
Have you ever played Planescape: Torment or Amnesia: The Dark Descent, and if so, what did you think of their handling of amnesia?

I have been meaning to try Planescape, but I can not find it anywhere (I am avoiding Steam and GOG for now, but I may eventually purchase it online).

Regarding Amnesia, I have not played that either.

Yeah, Planescape is very hard to find these days - at least fully licit copies.  I think it handles amnesia pretty brilliantly, though, as again amnesia is more than simply a plot device but becomes central to the story.  The Dark Descent plays it in a slightly more cliched way, but it does sort of enhance the horror as you begin through flashbacks and journal entries to piece together fragments of your exceedingly disturbing past.

GOG is the way to go.

I thought that the amnesia in Bioshock was really stupid. I thought the whole story of that game, just a justification to lead you along by the nose was terrible and really annoyed me. It made me lose all desire to play that game, knowing my input was meaningless and I would basically just be turning the pages of a book in which I had no control.

I always thought Knights of the Old Republic pulled off Amnesia pretty well.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfI always thought Knights of the Old Republic pulled off Amnesia pretty well.

KotOR did amnesia really well, but in the end you end up finding out who you were before and it adds to the story. A good example of this is the Bourne series (movies/books not games... but still) which flawlessly pulls this off to create a wonderful internal conflict for the protagonist. Having to deal with the fact that you were an ice cold killer after your amnesia has caused your personality to shift away from that creates a serious value dissonance that can often make for great storytelling.

Dark Descent and the Bourne series present an interesting comparison. In the Bourne series Jason's own forgotten crimes were the consequence of Operation Treadstone; in Amnesia the protagonist Daniel has no such excuse for his crimes, and can only say "I was trying to save my self". The more Daniel learns about his past monstroities, the more abominable he becomes in the present, by the simple virtue of having those experiences reintegrated into his identity.

And Steerpike, what do you mean Planescape's hard (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/planescape_torment) to find (http://www.amazon.com/Planescape-Torment-Pc/dp/B00002EPZ2)?

Some people don't like to buy online and they did mention that they did not want to go the GOG route...though I can't imagine why. You get all that extra stuff in exchange for not having the physical disc. I have a Baldur's Gate desktop wallpaper right now because of GOG.

I also saw it on a shelf at my local gaming store. Cheaply priced. I assumed it had a hardcopy re-release.

...That amazon offer is almost too good to pass up... I may very well take advantage of that--thank you.

As for Bioshock leading you around- I thought that was amazingly well done and the rationale was very well integrated. The whole story-line concept was exciting-- I played it for the philosophy rather than the shooting :) And I got chills when dealing with Andrew Ryan.

When you look at the game through the lenses of: Objectivism, and Free Will and Religion v. Capitalism and worship of self v. selflessness, it's really quite a deep game.

Bioshock 2... not so much.

I'll admit, I never made it to the end of Bioshock. I got very sick of it because of how much you're led around.

The multiplayer on Bioshock 2 was kind of fun for the two days anyone was playing it.

Did everyone catch the g4 interview with Todd Howard? It shows off a number of new things including the map, the menu, new items, interaction with NPCs and a look around one of the towns. The beginning shows footage we've already seen but there is new content later on. http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.g4tv.com%2Fvideos%2F53441%2FThe-Elder-Scrolls-V-Skyrim-E3-Gameplay-Demo%2F&h=794e2

Quote from: Ninja D!I'll admit, I never made it to the end of Bioshock. I got very sick of it because of how much you're led around.

Did you make it at least until the point that you meet Andrew Ryan in person?

Quote from: Light DragonDid you make it at least until the point that you meet Andrew Ryan in person?

In my own playing, no I did not. I have heard about almost everything in that game from people. More than that, I've seen most of it because my girlfriend is really big on Bioshock. She's played through both of them at least twice, has a Big Daddy on her desk, and Rapture posters all over her wall.

Quote from: Light Dragon

Quote from: Ninja D!I'll admit, I never made it to the end of Bioshock. I got very sick of it because of how much you're led around.

Did you make it at least until the point that you meet Andrew Ryan in person?

I just realized how happy I'm going to be with Skyrim. I did enjoy Oblivion a lot -- it was a fun game -- but the more I looked at it and the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to fall short of Morrowind. Then with Fallout 3, I knew what Bethesda games were like now. The different setting helped but I wasn't hurt by the fact that there were so few quests or things to discover. Basically, I'm going to love Skyrim simply because of how disappointed I was with Oblivion.

Dual wielding swords. Sneaking around the wilderness, double-shanking fools.

200 hours of gameplay right there.

Ah, just purchased Planescape. It should arrive sometime next week. Now to hope it runs on Win7.

I have just started playing Planescape on my Win7 computer and it works fine.

Quote from: Light DragonAh, just purchased Planescape. It should arrive sometime next week. Now to hope it runs on Win7.

I think you did that backwards.

Meanwhile, back in Tamriel...

Which race are you guys going to start with?

I know two of my friends will be playing Nords regardless of anything else. I tend to be all over the place. My favorite character in Morrowind was an Imperial, while my favorite character in Oblivion was a Kajiit. I think my Skyrim character will probably be... Hmm. I like the Imperial's voice of the emperor ability, it makes interacting with people so.much.easier. But at the same time, I really like the Viking feel of the game, and being a Viking (i.e. Nord) would be pretty dang cool. I'm re-playing Morrowind right now with a Redguard and I have to say, I do like their mechanics (Adrenaline Rush is soooo good).

Bah! I'll probably just roll a die :)

In Morrowind I was usually Redguard for the mechanical superiority. Otherwise, wood elf rangers were great.

In Oblivion, I don't remember. The races were more balanced and mundane. Diseases had also become a non-issue.

In Skyrim, maybe I'll recreate my first Morrowind character: A Nord warrior called Heimdall.

My favorite character's in Oblivion were Redguards. I'll probably do a Nord first in the spirit of the game and roll up a Redguard second time around.

Haha, look at us - Three Redguards talking about how awesome we are. ^^

Khajit, definitely.

Again, sneaking and shanking. That's what cat people do.

...Or if I'm playing while friends watch, as is often the case, a Redguard with big eyes and HUGE LIPS. Because there's nothing more hilarious than engaging in racial humour that your white friends are obligated to find offensive.

Quote from: Musky Scented AngelKhajit, definitely.

Again, sneaking and shanking. That's what cat people do.

...Or if I'm playing while friends watch, as is often the case, a Redguard with big eyes and HUGE LIPS. Because there's nothing more hilarious than engaging in racial humour that your white friends are obligated to find offensive.

Be sure to name him Bubba Blackface and have him wear ratty pants, no shirt, and a straw hat while wielding a pitchfork.

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Musky Scented AngelKhajit, definitely.

Again, sneaking and shanking. That's what cat people do.

...Or if I'm playing while friends watch, as is often the case, a Redguard with big eyes and HUGE LIPS. Because there's nothing more hilarious than engaging in racial humour that your white friends are obligated to find offensive.

Be sure to name him Bubba Blackface and have him wear ratty pants, no shirt, and a straw hat while wielding a pitchfork.

If only Oblivion had Polearms!!! :P

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Musky Scented AngelKhajit, definitely.

Again, sneaking and shanking. That's what cat people do.

...Or if I'm playing while friends watch, as is often the case, a Redguard with big eyes and HUGE LIPS. Because there's nothing more hilarious than engaging in racial humour that your white friends are obligated to find offensive.

Be sure to name him Bubba Blackface and have him wear ratty pants, no shirt, and a straw hat while wielding a pitchfork.

I approve of all of this so much...

This exchange should come with a disclaimer.

Quote from: Musky Scented AngelThis exchange should come with a disclaimer.

I suppose the humor would sort of be lost on people that didn't realize you're a dark-skinned fellow, if that's what you mean.

I usually end up making like a trillion characters and none of them ever make it very far. I had a crazy dark elf warrior-mage in Morrowind, but I was always sad that I hadn't trained myself in using all that cool, cool high level heavy/medium armor there is in that game.

The medium armor was the coolest...Oblivion hurt so bad.

VIDEO (http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/220475/roleplayers-realm-video-extra-2-your-questions-about-skyrim-answered/)
For a moment, I was confused about genders...get past that and watch this. This Kat really calls the Bethesda guy out on some stuff.

It upsets me that Ashley claims that people play as a fighter OR a mage OR a thief. One of the fun things about this sort of game is that you're not restricted to classes like that.

She asks about vampires. His voice says he can't talk about it but his face says, "YES".

No riding dragons. :( "The dragons are these beautiful, phenomenal creatures...and you're going to kill a lot of them."

"Over 50 beards. Tons of beards." I want all the beards at once. I WILL BE THE VIKING GOD OF FACIAL HAIR.

Oh yeah, if you guys hadn't heard yet, the Doom Stones actually do something now. You can apparently change your birth sign with them...which doesn't make sense but oh well, these games have talking cats.

It seemed to me that Bethesda was trying to dumb everything down game after game until we would finally be left with something like that Star Wars connect game where you pretend you're a crippled person with a lightsaber and enemies throw themselves on you to die...but the more I read and see of Skyrim, the more I think it looks like it could really be a damn good game and an actual improvement over Oblivion.

I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that I did not actually like Oblivion-- and try as I might to LIKE the Elder Scroll Games, I find myself bored and frustrated with them after only a few short hours, so I tend to leave them be and never go back to them.

Skyrim's changes, however, have me much more hopeful that it will be a game that I may actually want to continue playing. Kind of like the Witcher 2. I love the writing and the atmosphere of the game, but I find the combat system so beyond terrible that I /ragequit it so hard that I actually uninstalled it as a result. Oblivion was the same, just for different reasons. I hope that Skyrim does not prove to be of the same nature.

I think Red Dead Redemption and Arkham Asylum both make better rpgs than Oblivion, and they aren't even rpgs. Both games thoroughly invest the protagonist and therefore the player in the world through their abilities and motivations.

One of the principle weaknesses of rpgs where you can invent your character from the ground up is that it places profound limitations on the game's writing. There are no "save your daughter"/"protect your family villa"/"conspire against your long-time ally" plots, because who's to say if the character has a daughter, or a villa, or any long-time allies?

Compare with the plot of the Witcher 2, where the major NPCs know who and what you are and how to manipulate you. You (Geralt) in turn are given the sort of opportunities for compromise and alliance and betrayal that are consistent with the identity that is established from the outset.

Plot-heavy rpgs would benifit from a selection of such predetermined, fleshed out protagonists (I figure three is an intuitive, manageable standard). The narrative choices, then, would be the sort that a given character could conceivably make. You don't get to burn down the orphanage and then save the boat full of refugees. Your opportunities reflect your nature and ambitions. It's better for the plot if some character prejudices and predilections are predefined.

ALSO: Conversation time limits. No letting players stew over a response for five minutes while the NPC stares back with patient stupidity. If the king's champion asks you "with whom do you stand?" you've got about a second and a half before he tries to run you through.

Combining this with predefined characters, you have opportunities for mental breakdown, or personal shame, where decisions made in the heat of the moment take their toll on the protagonist's resolve or force actual transformations in self-perception. The gaming industry has more than enough great writers to make this compelling.

This is one of the true gaming evolutions explored in Heavy Rain.

>>
ALSO: Conversation time limits. No letting players stew over a response for five minutes while the NPC stares back with patient stupidity. If the king's champion asks you "with whom do you stand?" you've got about a second and a half before he tries to run you through.

The only reason I'd complain about this is that most gamers are causal--and sometimes you get interrupted or aren't able to pay 100% attention to the game.

e.g. in Mass Effect 2 the instant-actions were neat, but sometimes I'd have to go back to an earlier save because I only noticed the option to do something when it was too late to pull the trigger.

Just imagine this problem raised to the next level. You're in an important conversation...and then the dinner call comes and you don't realize that sometimes the game has a time limit, so you don't go to the menu screen... ... When you come back from dinner, somehow your character is dead.

>>One of the principle weaknesses of rpgs where you can invent your character from the ground up is that it places profound limitations on the game's writing. There are no "save your daughter"/"protect your family villa"/"conspire against your long-time ally" plots, because who's to say if the character has a daughter, or a villa, or any long-time allies?

I agree with that. It reflects back on my earlier comments about annoyances about the weaknesses of many games where you 'start with amnesia/in a dungeon'. Its sort of difficult to define anything or to make anything matter in those games unless the player has a very strong will to make things matter and define thing s for themself.

I like to be able to create my own character, though I understand that writing can be better for games where the character is better defined. I think, for a video game, Dragon Age Origins found the right balance here. Of course, I would take that setup and make it skill based instead of class based, unless class based really works better for the setting.

The problem with games that have a set character, like Mass Effect, is that there are only so many playthrus you can achieve before you wind up re-hashing the same experience. The play-areas of Story-Driven games tend to be much smaller, focusing more on levels and small sections of a world because if you go off the rails too far, then you wind up loosing the core essence of the game - the story. This is where sandbox games like the Elder Scrolls shine - they give you a very large play area and tell you to make up your own story. The weakness of the sandbox, however, is that you wind up with a less emotionally driven in-game story.

I cannot think of a single game that really balanced Open World and Story driven-content very well, most games tend towards one or the other.

QuoteThe only reason I'd complain about this is that most gamers are causal--and sometimes you get interrupted or aren't able to pay 100% attention to the game.

Just imagine this problem raised to the next level. You're in an important conversation...and then the dinner call comes and you don't realize that sometimes the game has a time limit, so you don't go to the menu screen... ... When you come back from dinner, somehow your character is dead.[/quote]The problem with games that have a set character, like Mass Effect, is that there are only so many playthrus you can achieve before you wind up re-hashing the same experience.[/quote]I cannot think of a single game that really balanced Open World and Story driven-content very well, most games tend towards one or the other.[/quote]I like to be able to create my own character, though I understand that writing can be better for games where the character is better defined. I think, for a video game, Dragon Age Origins found the right balance here. Of course, I would take that setup and make it skill based instead of class based, unless class based really works better for the setting.[/quote]A simple matter of different games. This is why I brought up Heavy Rain. This game has split-second choices with immediate consequences and prefabricated characters to act out and be affected by those choices. Heavy Rain was far from perfect, but it was a great exploration of a way rpgs can go that is different than (but not necessarily inherently superior to) Elder Scrolls.

I for on would love a game with no story but remarkable detail in the landscape and mechanics for hunting, tracking, stealth, exploration and combat. Different game. Equally viable.

That game would be best suited for something along the lines of Monster Hunter, where there isn't really usually a plot at all, or an MMORPG. I'd love a game that plays like that sort of MMORPG offline, though. Bonus points if you could play it and build your character alone offline then take it online with other people, like Borderlands.

By way of example, here's an idea I had for an rpg as I was drifting off to sleep a few nights ago:

It's an rpg focusing on one-on-one to three-on-one combat, a la Rob Roy, but filled with all sorts of esoteric and occult moves, so I suppose it's a blend of western swordplay and wuxia combat-sorcery. Every battle is fought against an individual, voiced opponent, and most of the time you will have encountered them before in a non-combat circumstance.

You might, for instance, parlay with a corrupt official but fail to acquire permission for something, so later on when he discovers you transgressing you have to fight him and his son who works beside him. If you kill the father, the son freaks out and flees but swears revenge.

This is of course very conventional.

But what happens later is you encounter the young man again. He's out for blood but he knows how good you are. You can see he's conflicted. Filial duty demands he fight but he's frightened enough that he might be convinced to flee.

So let's say there were three characters to select from at the beginning of the game. One is a man no older than the one here described, a prodigy with a blade  eager to prove his manhood but blind to the true implications of bloodshed. Another is the wife of a murdered swordsman, who takes up her husband's sword to avenge him and their butchered sons. The last is a seasoned killer, known and feared, but secretly embittered by warfare's endless cycle.

These three characters have different responses to the vengeful churl. They might be...

The Prodigy:
'He was in my way. And now you are.' (Starts a fight)
'You've seen what I can do.' (Fails. The young man sees you as an equal, whatever your skill, and for honour's  sake he will not back down)

The Widow:
'I had sons like you.' (Avoids a fight)
'I will fight you if I have to. (Reluctantly concedes and battle begins)

The Veteran:
'This will be a pointless death'
'Come then, boy.'
Surprise Attack (Throws a dagger straight into the boys throat... there will be consequences)

And there might be common options, such as 'he was corrupt!' (doesn't work, it was his father after all).

Immediate choices, personal consequences. The Widow can't just butcher her way through hordes of foolish and impressionable boys. That's the very thing she's trying to avenge! Every life takes its toll. Not so for the Veteran. Perhaps the Prodigy only begins to see the consequences of his killing later down the track, as the kinsmen of the dead are arrayed against him.

EDIT: This kind of gameplay involves a subtly altered perspective. Because the characters are specifically described it is difficult to reconcile them with personal player identity. So we don't. The Prodigy is his own evolving being. You guide his choices, but within the game's narrative they are his choices, not yours.

That might be fine but it couldn't replace a good sandbox game. Really, they should stop trying to make them be the same thing because they're not. They should be allowed to grow naturally in their own directions with different expectations. To me comparing The Elder Scrolls to Mass Effect because they're both called "RPG" is about the same as comparing The Elder Scrolls to a Call of Duty game because they're both meant to be played in first person. Different games are meant to offer different experiences. Creators, in any media, trying to follow any of the established conventions of an established genre can only lead to reduced creativity. (This is especially the case in music.)

Which is just my point. Nobody's talking about replacing. This is specifically concerning the refinement of gaming narrative within the context of rpgs. Perhaps it sounds like a criticism of Elder Scrolls because I'm presenting it in an Elder Scrolls thread.

QuoteTo me comparing The Elder Scrolls to Mass Effect because they're both called "RPG" is about the same as comparing The Elder Scrolls to a Call of Duty game because they're both meant to be played in first person. Different games are meant to offer different experiences.

that[/i] game is in no way an RPG)

As I said, my suggestions are principally about verisimilitude. A more realistic and fluid conversation system could contribute to a more immersive sandbox. In this regard there are advantages to limiting character creation options just as there are disadvantages.

We can even divide the character creation sandbox from setting exploration sandbox. Maybe you can only play as Dave, but you can make Dave an assassin or a stormtrooper or a psionic berserker, but no matter what you choose he always hates spaghetti and loves redheads. Still a potential sandbox, just with different parameters.

Just food for thought. We all want new and original games, after all. :)

Quote from: please DO NOT feed the eyeballWe can even divide the character creation sandbox from setting exploration sandbox. Maybe you can only play as Dave, but you can make Dave an assassin or a stormtrooper or a psionic berserker, but no matter what you choose he always hates spaghetti and loves redheads. Still a potential sandbox, just with different parameters.

Two Worlds is exactly this.

Is it a good game?

I really liked it, even though it was really cheesey. It was not very popular in the United States (we almost didn't get the sequel) but it's huge and popular in most of the rest of the world.

I too really liked the game.  My biggest complaint about the game is the auto target and I have yet been able to figure out how to switch targets with it.

Yeah, that was a bit of trouble.

The voiceovers were so bad they were good.

EDIT: And welcome to the CBG.

I may just be the weird one here but I never had any issue with getting invested in my character. It is my very nature that if my character has no backstory I will end up making one for them and weaving it into the game. If something is in the way of it working I've never had any issue ignoring it or altering it to fit. Sometimes you have to look outside the game for the story in sandbox situations. For alot of people this breaks immersion but for me personally I have never broken immersion for myself by doing so.

You're on an Elder Scrolls thread, so I think it's safe to assume the consensus is with you. ;)

I don't always, or even usually have a story for characters in this sort of game. That's probably mostly because I don't think the setting is really all that great.

You can stick to your own character better if you don't feel obligated to do the main quest or any certain quest lines. Of course, this was much easier to do in a game like Morrowind because there we're so few options. Fallout 3 had, probably, the fewest options but the setting and situation from the beginning sets you on a certain path, anyway.

Been playing it for a bit and thought I might show you all how beautiful this game is. I keep stopping to just enjoy the scenery, it's phenomenal. Enjoy some early screenshots.

[spoiler=Large Image Warning](http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4031/2011111000001.jpg)
(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7072/2011111000004v.jpg)
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3637/2011111000007.jpg)
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2653/2011111000012.jpg)
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8789/2011111000013.jpg)[/spoiler]

Gah, why can't I see ANY of the images on this site anymore? I just get a weird placeholder image of a frog stuck in a gelatinous cube.

Looks like some dumb thing imageshack is doing. I registered thecbg.org with them so hopefully imageshack images should start working again on here again soon.

[spoiler=Warning this contains awesome... oh and Skyrim spoilers]Anyhow this game totally blows both Oblivion and Morrowind away IMO. The first thing I noticed is that it is alot grander than either of the past games. Everything seems larger with more distance between it. It takes longer to walk between towns than it did in Oblivion. I don't mind though as the scenery is absolutely beautiful and it has much more varied terrain. Where Oblivion was forest, forest, mountain, slightly different forest I have only really started getting into the main quest and I've already run into: plains, tundra, pine forest, autumn forest (with pretty orange leaves), rivers, an icy marsh, mountain pass, frozen lakes, and several other things. On top of that the weather keeps the scenery interesting even in the same location varying from light rain drizzles to howling wind, to driving blizzards and fog banks (and of course sunny days too). The sky is really great and I especially love the night sky (I've seen an aurora already and it was awesome). Overall in terms of scenery the game is amazing.

Character models and voices are much improved too. Long gone is the talking monkey faces of Oblivion or the six whole voice actors for everything. There's tons of variation in voices and the character models look really sleek (Bethesda has obviously improved on their modelling techniques since Fallout New Vegas, which IMO had good models in its own right). Character interaction is smoother too, while there's still a touch of the awkward pathfinding that the older games had it isn't as bad. And more importantly I haven't yet heard a single awkward conversation about mudcrabs. Conversation is much more fluid and more often dwells on recent events and local activities. People also react to your actions alot more. I love using the voice in towns because people stop and go "holy crap it's true! you're dragonborn!" and other such comments.

On that note I love using the shouts the first shout you unlock is great once you max the power on it and send bad guys flying across the room to slam into a wall. The magic system in general is great with the destruction spells acting like element throwers where you can hold down the button and unleash a steady stream of hell on your opponents. Melee is much "heavier", you feel the impacts of your hits and it really feels like you did some damage. It also seems to be ever so slightly sped up from the slower combat of Oblivion. Ranged is still... ranged really, it feels similar to how it was before which is fine with me as I liked it how it was. Blocking is still around with the added bonus that your shield acts like its own separate item instead of a modification to your sword like in the older games. You still use it to block attacks but instead of just stopping everything it soaks up the hit (a hard enough hit will push a shield aside allowing a followup attack to get through) plus you can bash with it which staggers your opponent and opens them up for a strike. So in the end combat is a bit more tactical than it was in Oblivion. I've noticed having the high ground is more important than before and I have to carefully time my blocks and strikes to take advantage of openings. The shouts only add to the tactics. So far I have maxed my first shout which is basically force push with your voice (if I fully charge up the shout I can send a couple guys in a narrow cone flying 15 feet through the air) and unlocked shouts for one that throws me forward really quickly (force sprint) and is good for closing distance with ranged enemies and another that turns me ethereal (can't take or deal damage) which is a good panic button.

Basically it's the beauty of Oblivion upgraded and combined with the story quality of Morrowind upgraded. Not only did they take the most important of the best from each of the two previous games but IMO they made it better. Morrowind fans will be happy to know that the terrain is more varied, the quests are more interesting, the story more convincing, and the races more distinct. Meanwhile those who liked Oblivion will love to hear that the graphics are even better, the landscape breathtaking, the physics are great (the gravity from jumping and such is still a little light but there's no more hitting a guy with an axe and watching his body soar 15 feet through the air), and the spells have real oomph to them. Oh yea and the dragons are freaking terrifying to fight and very satisfying to defeat and since they're not all scripted to quests you'll sometimes come to a town and find people running in fear. So you get to go and help the guards save the town (and afterwards bask in the glory when the townsfolk look on you in awe and comment on the return of the dragonborn).

I've only just started and I'm already in love. I keep running into constant little things here and there that are improved and there are things that are still the same but overall they seem to be minor things that don't really matter much to me. Great game, great fun, it's 5am and I should really get a few hours of sleep. :)

Oh yea... I ran into a traveling bard who sung me a song of the dragonborn for 25 gold. I think I'll name him Vreeg...[/spoiler]

[spoiler]This game is what Oblivion SHOULD have been #IamaMorrowindphile[/spoiler]

Seconded.
[spoiler=ALSO (spoiler)]WEREWOLVES![/spoiler]

Wait? Does Skyrim have
[spoiler]werewolves?![/spoiler]
or are you referring to
[spoiler]Solstheim in Morrowind?[/spoiler]

I'm just about done installing the game. This is the first game I have ever played in the Elder Scrolls series, and wasn't planning on buying until my friend, who was playing, said he was running around with an axe in one hand and shooting lightning out of the other. SOLD!

Will post my perspective as a newcomer to the series at some point after playing for a bit.

Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
I'm just about done installing the game. This is the first game I have ever played in the Elder Scrolls series, and wasn't planning on buying until my friend, who was playing, said he was running around with an axe in one hand and shooting lightning out of the other. SOLD!

Will post my perspective as a newcomer to the series at some point after playing for a bit.

- Put on black mage's robes
- Dual wield lightning spells
- Play Emperor Palpatine

How viable is a Nord mage? :p

EDIT: I really like the new character models. (at least the images I have seen)

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
How viable is a Nord mage? :p.

Totally. Your racial abilities won't give you much of an edge, and you won't be the best caster at first, but you'll eventually get to be awesome!

Quote from: Nomadic- Put on black mage's robes
- Dual wield lightning spells
- Play Emperor Palpatine

This is exactly the character I'm playing. Messed up face and everything.

Quote from: Superfluous CrowWait? Does Skyrim have SPOILER?

Yes. [spoiler]And a SPOILER is you![/spoiler]

So, its time to dish - What race did everyone choose?

I'm still bouncing back and forth between several characters at the moment. So I will answer in a day or so.

I'm playing a male Orc. Heavy armour and two handed weapons. Just finished crafting my set of Ebony armour and my Ebony warhammer! Getting enough Ebony was a task and a half, though.  

In general Skyrim is pretty great and I am enjoying it.

Edit: Playing on PC, of course.

I agree that this is what Oblivion should have been. I understand that a lot of extra work goes into coding the first game on a new platform and that a bunch of stuff that was meant to be in Oblivion got scrapped but I see Skyrim as the final, damning evidence that Oblivion was half-assed.

So far, I don't find the game to be generally visually impressive. It's a big step up from Oblivion but I've seen things drawn with a mouse in MSPaint that could be called a big step up from Oblivion. The night sky is great but that was great even back in Morrowind. If you see things from the top of a mountain or some other great distance, they do look pretty nice. Gettup close, though, and most off it is barely better than Oblivion at times. And there are still those damn lines. Armors look pretty sweet, though. Keep in mind that I'm playing with the game installed on my 360 so I'm stuck with thee glitch that is causing some things to not show up right. I'll be able to say more once that is patched.

As an RPG, I think Skyrim took another step backwards mechanically. I don't like the removal of attributes and I really hate some of the consolidation of skills. That said, while I don't like it becoming more action and less RPG, it plays well so I can't get too upset about it. The perk system is nice. They seem a bit overpowered right away but balance out very quickly.

With fewer skills and all skills counting toward a level increase, you seem to level really quickly. Maybe that's what they wanted. I'm averaged at about one level per one hour of play right now. It could be better, it could be worse. It seems to easy to level skills to me. I can go through a single dungeon and see my Heavy Armor, One-Handed (both of which could be explained by my current use of the Warrior standing stone), and Destruction level TWICE. I also had an experience where I disenchanted three items and leveled my Enchant skill twice. Still, Smithing felt like it was also leveling too fast before and now seems to be at a more reasonable pace. Maybe I've gotten used to it or maybe it levels out once you get it to a really high level. Hopefully that's the case and they all do it. I just wished that happened sooner (My Smithing skill is currently over 60.)

Khajiit finally look more than vaguely like abstract representations of cats! Of course, as soon as they manage that they make it so there are hardly in Khajiit in the game. What the hell.

I now suspect that a CBGer may be secretly working for Bethesda. There is is cabbage EVERYWHERE in Skyrim.

Sure, the game isn't perfect. Nothing IS perfect. So if I'm going to use a numerical rating system, I have to take that into consideration. The upper ceiling is not and will never be perfection. This game could have been improved in any number of ways and every game could use more content. For everything that isn't perfect in this game, though, it still got me to spend about 25 hours with it in three days and enjoy pretty much every second of it.

5 / 5

I was having a hard time deciding what kind of character to make. In the end, I decided to remake the first Elder Scrolls character I ever made. Heimdal, a male Nord. Still wearing heavy armor but I switched from two handed weapons to one handed axes and destruction magic, as befitting a god. I also have a good bit in smithing, enchanting, and alchemy.

My first run through was on a nord barbarian (in the spirit of the game and all). But that was just to see the main quest line. Second time through and I'm taking things a bit slower, doing all the quests, seeing all the sights, etc. This second character is a redguard fire mage. I cannot believe the amount of pain you can dish out as a pure mage in Skyrim. So much more than in the earlier TES games.

What are spells like? Can't find any proper details on them. They removed the whole modular effects mechanic as far as I understand it, so now everything is unique?

...damn it, I'm going to have to break down and get this game, aren't I?

I won't even get the chance for quite a while since my xbox is far away and my computer is crap. I'll probably try my friend's copy once I get home. Until then, I will make do with gossip!

I've been playing one of the lizardpeople going one handed weapon and magic - a combination of destruction, restoration, and conjuration (damaging, healing/warding, and summoning fire elementals is fun as hell). Managed to take down my first random dragon yesterday - and after that was sure I loved this game. Unfortunately, last few days have been insanely busy, so haven't gotten very far, but enjoying what I've been doing.

Quote from: Luminous Crayon
...damn it, I'm going to have to break down and get this game, aren't I?

ffffffffffffffffffff

Quote from: Luminous Crayon

Quote from: Luminous Crayon
...damn it, I'm going to have to break down and get this game, aren't I?

ffffffffffffffffffff

DO EET

I am a beautiful lizard man. The default they show you is so so ugly, but the customization options are all pretty cool.

I'm going with bow, stealth, alchemy, and some evilish spells as soon as I can. For now I'm using more fire and heavy armor than I'd like, but for now they are just plain the best options. I've poisoned a few elk with arrows from hiding in the hopes of getting those skills more useful.

What platform are all of you playing on? PC? xbox? PS3?

PC for myself. Don't own any other gaming system. :P

I had  A LOT of problems with Oblivion on the PC, so I decided to play it safe and buy Skyrim for the X-Box.

What does alteration spells do? The perks imply at least one of the spells is defensive, but I have no clue what else you can do.
Same goes for illusion, although I guess fear spells and chameleon spells fall in that category.

Quote from: sparkletwist
What platform are all of you playing on? PC? xbox? PS3?

xbox. Does anybody know if dragon scale or bones are useful? Can they be used to make armor or something?

I'm hoping they are - I spent 5 grand on a house just so I wouldn't have to keep stashing them in a barrel in the street.

Quote from: beejazz
My girlfriend just got a house. We haven't found it yet.

It should be right next to the blacksmith in Whiterun (assuming I got town name right).

Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds

Quote from: beejazz
My girlfriend just got a house. We haven't found it yet.

It should be right next to the blacksmith in Whiterun (assuming I got town name right).

Yeah, found it by going to start>misc>visit your house. Misc there is sort of nifty, but you forget its there. And breezehome isn't quite as obvious as "my house."

I got it on 360. I always start this sort of game on my XBox. My girlfriend will play it on there, too. Then in a couple of years when a complette collection is released on PC for $30, I buy that.

Oh yeah, about the dragon bones and dragon scales...the top (if you can call it that) perk in smithing is Dragon Armor, so I assume the scales will make light dragon armor and the bones will make heavy. Good thing you bought the house, containers and even placed objects refresh after a while in this game (FINALLY) and if that happened, your stuff would no longer be there.

Quote from: Ninja D!
Oh yeah, about the dragon bones and dragon scales...the top (if you can call it that) perk in smithing is Dragon Armor, so I assume the scales will make light dragon armor and the bones will make heavy. Good thing you bought the house, containers and even placed objects refresh after a while in this game (FINALLY) and if that happened, your stuff would no longer be there.

Dragonscale armor is light armor and as you said requires only scales. The heavy armor is dragonplate and uses both scales and bones (and looks sort of weird).

Heavy Armor users get screwed again. I'd be mad if I weren't a brick wall with an axe.

Actually, containers refreshed every so often in Oblivion. Found that one out the hard way...

Quote from: Elemental_Elf
Actually, containers refreshed every so often in Oblivion. Found that one out the hard way...

You're right. I think outdoor containers must have done it monthly or maybe a bit less often. In Skyrim, if you take stuff off a table, not only will there be stuff on that table again later but it will be different stuff.

the cleaning lady:
"Hmm, someone left a daedric claymore on the table *again*. Tsk tsk"
*brushes it down into a sack with her broom and disposes of it*

(Also, why do heavy armor people get screwed? Can't you get both the bones and the scales from one and the same dragon?)

EDIT: found a picture of the dragon bone armor (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Armor)

So Meridia's daedric artifact is awesome

[spoiler]It's a flaming sword that has a chance to make undead explode frying everything around them and turning any other surviving undead.[/spoiler]

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
the cleaning lady:
"Hmm, someone left a daedric claymore on the table *again*. Tsk tsk"
*brushes it down into a sack with her broom and disposes of it*

(Also, why do heavy armor people get screwed? Can't you get both the bones and the scales from one and the same dragon?)

EDIT: found a picture of the dragon bone armor (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Armor)

Dropped some weapons in the keep in Dragonsreach. Was reprimanded by a guard.

Heavy Armor users get screwed most by the removal of Attributes and Athletics. For the most part, I don't give a damn about my Stamina. When you start out using Heavy Armor, though, your armor alone is almost half of what you can carry. It also seems to get a lot more expensive than light armor.

So, I have a decidedly non-gaming PC. This game runs better on my computer than I expected. Even with low graphics settings, it's very pretty. I want to see if I can increase the rendering distances without taking too much of a performance hit. (While fighting some bandits at range, one kept disappearing and reappearing as he'd move away from me and back towards me, crossing the distance threshold apparently.) I feel like I'm spending a pretty long time at loading screens, and that certain UI elements take longer than they need to (the pop-up progress bar and accompanying text when you increase a skill or when you level up, for instance), and I don't know whether this is universal or just my PC. I also wish I could trade the 3D map for a less clunky 2D map. I really like how much of the UI is invisible when it's not needed, so you just get uninterrupted vistas of awesome mountains.

Also, is it just me, or are all the menus engaged in a fiercely competitive "which menu can be the shittiest menu design/layout" competition? I will say I like the whole idea of the Favorites menu; that one's cool. Climbing up into some kind of metaphysical astronomical observatory just to spend my skill points is a little ridiculous, though. Would it be too much to ask to see all my skill values at the same time, or to browse perk effects with a simple mouseover, without having to zoom and twirl through the cosmos (and put all the other perk candidates outside my field of view)?

Enough bitching. This game is still fun.

Character models are engaging, feel complex and interesting. As soon as I started setting up my character's looks (a lean, middle-aged Redguard, going grey, skin roughened and scarred from a life of... what, precisely?), I started wondering what his deal was. What deeds had those hands done? What sorrows had those eyes seen? I'm still working out the details of this guy's past. He is the coolest guy, I'm telling you.

I've noticed it's interesting the way the world reacts to you. It's harder for me to play this like a game, you know? After the initial scene, I made my way to a village where a local blacksmith offered me shelter and whatever I needed from his supplies, and on the list was a magic ring. It looks useful; it even gleams! But I'm thinking, this guy doesn't even know me, and he's opening his house to me and offering up all his magic gear to a stranger, it's probably the most valuable thing he has-- no way I am asking for that. I just can't. It's too much.

Later I bought a cheap little "globe of light follows you around" spell, because I thought it would be an easy way to build up one of my magic skills. (Apparently that is not really the case?) The first time I cast it in town, a guard was all "whoa there, buddy, watch it with the magic!" which I guess is understandable; he had no way to know I wasn't going to burn the town to the ground, I guess. But once the spell was cast, kids followed me around because they wanted to look at the pretty lights. That sort of thing is way better than easy magic skillups anyway.

I really like how alchemy is all based on trial and error now, and high skill doesn't give you intuitive knowledge of ingredients' qualities. It makes me want to find an actual in-game library and learn new recipes by reading actual in-game books.

wow, that sounds like a pretty amazing level of immersion LC :D
Love the detail with the kids following you around.
Heh, your redguard sounds awfully close to one of the mental characters I was playing around with in my head in lieu of playing the actual game. Does he by any chance have a beard? (note: beards are great)

EDIT: pondering the nature of in-game beards. I think a good Turing Test equivalent for game realism would be to consider a game realistic when you character had to shave in-game. Do you think more people would play females to get out of the chore if that was the case? Hmm. (random B-philosophy)

He's got a little salt-and-pepper stubble thing going on. (I'll probably make a Nord character later, so I can really rock the Magnificent Soup-Strainer look.) I'm doing that thing where I'm trying to go without a helmet as much as possible, so as not to cover up the character model.

I'm doing a bunch of minor sidequests, rather than getting on with the main event. That may change, though, because I imagine that pretty soon I'm going to get tired of getting the crap kicked out of me by this one bandit chieftain. The upside: I'm getting to hear a lot of amusing banter from him and his cronies; I just wonder how long it'll take before it inevitably repeats enough to get old and stale. The voice acting in general, though, is pretty impressive. And the various NPCs are doing a much better job at feeling like distinct individuals than in Oblivion or Morrowind. (There's one asshole mage [you know the one] who's going to eat his words I swear it; there's one Redguard blacksmith who I'm going to help make the most famous blacksmith in Skyrim, listen, I don't even care if there's not a quest for that, where doin it man, where making this hapen)

Quote from: Ninja D!
Heavy Armor users get screwed most by the removal of Attributes and Athletics. For the most part, I don't give a damn about my Stamina. When you start out using Heavy Armor, though, your armor alone is almost half of what you can carry. It also seems to get a lot more expensive than light armor.

Stamina also increases Carrying Capacity. :)

Quote from: Elemental_Elf

Quote from: Ninja D!
Heavy Armor users get screwed most by the removal of Attributes and Athletics. For the most part, I don't give a damn about my Stamina. When you start out using Heavy Armor, though, your armor alone is almost half of what you can carry. It also seems to get a lot more expensive than light armor.

Stamina also increases Carrying Capacity. :)

I know. What I was saying is that is the only reason for me to increase stamina.

I don't know how they are on PC yet but the menus are supposed to be designed for consoles and they're nothing but a pain in my ass on there.

What I was alluding to is that Stamina replicates an increase in strength and a boost in Athletics. If you wear heavy armor, you should increase Stamina, that way you can keep carrying the increasingly heavy items and have the inner strength to hustle longer and power attack more often.  :)

As for menus, I like Skyrim's set up waaaaay more than Oblivion's.

Quote from: Luminous Crayon
Later I bought a cheap little "globe of light follows you around" spell, because I thought it would be an easy way to build up one of my magic skills. (Apparently that is not really the case?) The first time I cast it in town, a guard was all "whoa there, buddy, watch it with the magic!" which I guess is understandable; he had no way to know I wasn't going to burn the town to the ground, I guess. But once the spell was cast, kids followed me around because they wanted to look at the pretty lights. That sort of thing is way better than easy magic skillups anyway.

I remember being in Riften because I found a strange jewel and decided to have it appraised and as I entered the town a dragon attacks. People are running and screaming, guards are mobilizing, I run up to the dragon and unleash lightning and hellfire on it as it lands. At one point in the fight I used FUS ROH DAH right as it was about to breath fire, knocking its head back and interrupting the shout. After an epic battle with it snapping at me with 7 inch long fangs and me running 20,000 volts through its body it finally collapses and I absorb the dragon soul...

It's at this point that I notice everything has gone deathly quiet so I turn around to see a crowd of 10 townsfolk and several guards just standing there in awe. As I stroll past them one comments in amazement that I absorbed its soul and another asks if the dragonborn has really returned. Right as I passed the last guy he thanked me for saving them. Now that was some awesome immersion.

You know what really got me? I was in Whitehelm and I had too much junk in my inventory, so I dropped a mace on the ground, figuring I'd come back for it later (after I free up some room). Well, a guard saunters up to me and informs me that I shouldn't leave weapons on the ground because someone could get hurt. I tell him I'm sorry, it won't happen again. I turn around to pick the mace up and it was gone! My only explanation is the guard confiscated it. Pretty cool!

I was out for a stroll one evening, on my way to collect a sword from some bandit in the middle of nowhere. I noticed a lone traveler on the road and said to myself, "Gee, that traveler really shouldn't be out here in the middle of the night. They could get ambushed by a large predatory cat; a gang of bandits; or, Talos forbid, a Dragon! I shall offer them assistance!" So I waltz my happy ass over there and discover that the traveler is a Kajhit. Upon my approach, he promptly addresses me and asks if I would like to purchase some Skooma.

"Skooma?" I think, "That's quite an illicit substance! I'm sure this traveler is unaware of the illegal nature of his wares. I'll just ask him if he knows that his goods are not looked too highly upon by the local constabulary."

He knew. My God did he know. He immediately dropped all pretense of a buyer/seller relationship and begins to punch me in the face! I responded in VIOLENCE!!! As I am wont to do when greeted with violence. I notice that after his first barrage of swings I'm at less than half health and I begin to flee from this experienced brawler, only to catch a right hook to the jaw and drop like a stone. Dead.

What did I learn from this lesson? There is always something that can kill you that doesn't necessarily LOOK like it can kill you. Which leads me to the point that I love about Skyrim: You can always be killed by something or someone if you're not careful about what you say, or how you approach an enemy. It keeps you on your toes and makes sure the tension doesn't ebb out of gameplay.

And that's awesome.

It sounds like you met Charlie Kajiit :P

Quote from: Elemental_Elf
It sounds like you met Charlie Kajiit :P

I've got Khajit's Blood

[ooc]
A personal question:
When I get home should I get Mass Effect 2 at a discount rate or splurge on Skyrim?
I am way behind gameswise.
[/ooc]

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
[ooc]
A personal question:
When I get home should I get Mass Effect 2 at a discount rate or splurge on Skyrim?
I am way behind gameswise.
[/ooc]

Skyrim. ME2 is pretty dang good but Skyrim is far better.

But from a financial point of view buying ME2 makes more sense right? Also, let us assume that I want to start playing both games as fast as possible: if I start with Skyrim I won't get to play ME2 in this lifetime!
There are many factors :D

Oh, add Deus Ex 3 to the list too by the way. As I said, I am way behind.

I feel like I am missing out, but I am fleeing from this time-sinkhole as fast as possible.
(for now)

Vreeg, if anyone should be playing this game it's you - the entire system is built upon the same concept as Guildschool, in that you level up the skills you use, so no getting better at lock picking by blasting zombies with fire. It's like the video game was made for you.

Seconded.

Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Vreeg, if anyone should be playing this game it's you - the entire system is built upon the same concept as Guildschool, in that you level up the skills you use, so no getting better at lock picking by blasting zombies with fire. It's like the video game was made for you.

Yep, Skyrim is classless :D

I still think the Magicka / Health / Stamina thing is lame. In previous versions, there has been a lot more fine tuning possible so you could make exactly the character you wanted.

Mysticism was my favorite school in Morrowind. Then it was gimped to crap in Oblivion...now it doesn't even exist.

I love the game but I think Vreeg is the wisest among us.

My only real complaint is the Magicka/Health/Stamina stats rather than the traditional RPG style stats. I liked the fact that I could, in Morrowind and Oblivion, increase my health, carrying capacity AND magicka every time I leveled.

Also, I still miss Mark/Recall and Levitation spells.

(I have yet to play the game)
Well, if the system forces you to pick one of the three instead of levelling all three simultaneously then it's forcing you to consider what kind of character you actually want and prioritize more than you otherwise would.

This sounds like a small gripe to be honest. Unless the ability scores have a non-combat effect (think Fallout 3 where they opened up speech options) it doesn't really matter that much how they model it.
I'd almost prefer if they ditched ability scores entirely and built the whole thing on perks (or perk-like things) alone.
It does make it more transparent that it's just a game though, in an odd way.

Felt Mysticism was kind of messy in Morrowind, but it did have some of the more unique spells. I can understand why they removed teleportation though.

If you increased those at every level it was at the expense of not increasing other things. There was just more detailed customization.

I don't understand why that sort of teleportation was removed. It was sort of replaced by the lame fast travel system, too. If you could shed some light on that, that would be cool.

From what I remember, they removed Teleportation because they wanted people to experience the world and not "cheat" but teleporting out of a dungeon every time they exceeded their carrying capacity. Of course they could have gotten around that by saying you can't teleport when you carry more than your maximum. At the same time, people would have adapted by marking the dungeon, using a teleportation spell to take them to the nearest Temple/Fort, unloading their goods and recalling back to the dungeon to repeat the process. If they had gotten rid of the Temple/Fort spells, then people would do exactly as above but mark a location in a town, recall there, unload goods, fast travel back to the dungeon. Any ways you look at it - Teleportation would be abused to "cheat"

Of course I disagree with the designers..

well, teleportation has a few issues:
* it's fairly easy to exploit. Most people seem to use player-controlled teleport to completely rip dungeons of anything valuable and sell whatever rags and cutlery they found, then return with a small profit and next to no hassle. This is the sandbox variant of freaking XP farming.  
* The designers had to put in all sorts of ad hoc teleportation blockers to keep the player from messing with the main quest.
* it lessens tension. You are miles deep in an unexplored dungeon full of deadly monsters, yet the nice relaxing temple is never more than a word and a spell away.

I can't really see what you gain by adding teleport spells. Fast travel is pretty lame, but it does offer the advantages of teleport without the disadvantages.  
I sort of miss that spell that lowered another person's carrying limit even though it was fucking annoying to have cast on oneself by an enemy :D

I would like to see some more unique spells admittedly, especially now that they have turned their back on the modular spell system. Looking over the list of enchantments everything seems so dull. It's just resistance to this, bonus to that. Only muffled and that weird moonflame thing you can get on weapons stand out from the crowd.

@E_E I hope that wasn't even that stated reason. That made people experience the world far less by adding in the stupid fast travel system in Oblivion.

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
well, teleportation has a few issues:
* it's fairly easy to exploit. Most people seem to use player-controlled teleport to completely rip dungeons of anything valuable and sell whatever rags and cutlery they found, then return with a small profit and next to no hassle. This is the sandbox variant of freaking XP farming. 
* The designers had to put in all sorts of ad hoc teleportation blockers to keep the player from messing with the main quest.
* it lessens tension. You are miles deep in an unexplored dungeon full of deadly monsters, yet the nice relaxing temple is never more than a word and a spell away.

I can't really see what you gain by adding teleport spells. Fast travel is pretty lame, but it does offer the advantages of teleport without the disadvantages. 
I sort of miss that spell that lowered another person's carrying limit even though it was fucking annoying to have cast on oneself by an enemy :D

I would like to see some more unique spells admittedly, especially now that they have turned their back on the modular spell system. Looking over the list of enchantments everything seems so dull. It's just resistance to this, bonus to that. Only muffled and that weird moonflame thing you can get on weapons stand out from the crowd.

You know, now that I think about it...
GS has teleportation, but it is so hard that very few people can use it.
And a lot of the reasons are the same reasons above.  So no matter how much easier recall/mark made the game to get things done...I think I certainly have to agree it lessened the tension.  Which is one of the reasons i made it so hard in GS.

(disclaimer: please do not read the paragraph below as a personal attack, it is rather aimed at the type of argument posted above in general.)
No one is forcing anyone to use fast travel. Hell, teleport has exactly the same level of convenience. The whole idea of a sandbox is that no one is forcing you to explore; that just sorta happens. So if you feel like walking then walk, if you feel like fast traveling then fast travel. The beauty of freedom. More freedom can hardly be said to make a sandbox worse even if you don't like using it yourself.
That would be like a guy playing a fighter claiming it was crap they included magic since he doesn't want to play a mage.

Teleport and fast travel are almost exactly the same thing. The difference is that teleport has an in-game, in-world reason. I also had no problem with silt striders in Morrowind or the carriages in Skyrim. It's just the nonsensical fast travel that I hate.

Well, it's implied that you are actually travelling. They are not claiming that you mysteriously appear in a different city without traversing the road in between.

Not just implied - if you watch the calendar, it takes time off it, depending on how far you travel. Also, Skyrim's designers did a great jib making you not want to fast travel, because you see so much less dragons that way - its a good tool when you have only an hour to play, but I ignore it if I have more time.

Also, they put flowers and butterflies along the road. So if you walk a lot, you get better at alchemy. I've got a bunch of 3 or 4 property ingredients so far. Though I wish there were faster ways to learn about the expensive ones, without wasting them on failed potions.

[spoiler=just in case]

I'm playing a nord that looks pretty much like Kratos from God of War. Red war paint, bald, scarred. I got the game last night and dropped about 8 hours into it. I'm playing PS3 version and have hit a ton of glitches. The game froze twice on me which has been mildly annoying. Textures often fail to load and I've seen NPCs just disappear from a room. My friend (who had the game at release) said it was far worse before the patch... glad I waited a bit.

I've only done one dungeon (barrow something or other) and killed the first dragon at White Run. Overall the game is incredibly immersive. No more bland npcs...the landscapes are freaking beautiful and detailed. (This is one of the few games I would pick up the concept art book for) I can remember running through oblivion totally skipping the dialogue, but in Skyrim I can actually bear to listen to 5 minutes of dialogue before a quest.

Is anyone else experiencing glitches/freezes?

[/spoiler]

Quote from: Sarisa
[spoiler=just in case]

I'm playing a nord that looks pretty much like Kratos from God of War. Red war paint, bald, scarred. I got the game last night and dropped about 8 hours into it. I'm playing PS3 version and have hit a ton of glitches. The game froze twice on me which has been mildly annoying. Textures often fail to load and I've seen NPCs just disappear from a room. My friend (who had the game at release) said it was far worse before the patch... glad I waited a bit.

Is anyone else experiencing glitches/freezes?

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I'm playing it on the 360 and have yet to encounter a glitch. WHich is quite shocking considering Oblivion ruined my old computer and Morrowind crashed like every 20 minutes.

As for NPCs disappearing, it can be that they are going outside. I've noticed that the don't have to be as close to a door to exit as a player does.  [/spoiler]

I've had maybe two freezes and a guy on horseback flying through the air as I walked through the mountains. Plus occasions where I maybe encountered like four random encounters (sabretooth, bandits, wolves, dragon all at once). I kind of like the ease with which I can sometimes avoid encounters I'm not interested in, between sprinting, whirlwind sprinting, and stealth.

Has anyone else seen the [spoiler]headless horseman?I ran halfway across skyrim trying to catch him, but he never stopped and when he paused I still couldn't talk to him.[/spoiler]

Quote from: beejazz

Has anyone else seen the [spoiler]headless horseman?I ran halfway across skyrim trying to catch him, but he never stopped and when he paused I still couldn't talk to him.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I too have seen him, and chased him but he eventually got away from me when a Dragon showed up. :( [/spoiler]

Something I have been wondering about...
is the choice of race more than a cosmetic/perk choice?
Do different races interact differently with the environment?
Do they have different speech options and do the locals react differently?

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Something I have been wondering about...
is the choice of race more than a cosmetic/perk choice?
Do different races interact differently with the environment?
Do they have different speech options and do the locals react differently?

Primarily its cosmetic and mechanical (each race has a different power and a smattering of skill bonuses).

Nords are treated to slightly different vocals (since you're a local/native rather than an outlander) but none of it is that major.

Interestingly, At the start of the game, an NPC calls a player whose playing an Argonian a "Lizard" where as every other race is called by their proper racial name (Nord, High Elf, Breton, etc.).

I know that time passes but that doesn't matter when time still doesn't mean anything. There should be some quests that expire to give it some significance. Even better, have seasons with changing weather. Maybe the entrance to some mountain dungeons could be covered by snow in the winter so you can only get to them in the summer. Anything to make the time mean SOMETHING would make the fast travel a little better. Without question, your travel should be able to be interrupted by creatures, just like resting in Morrowind. I really miss that, it added a lot of believability.

In the end, teleportation and fast travel amount to pretty much the same thing except that fast travel is less useful. I think that with the new carriages they should have done away with it.

Anyway, each race has a few minor skill modifiers that mean nothing after a few levels. They also each have a power and maybe a could of other things. Nords can use a battle cry to scare enemies away for a short time. The also resist disease 100% (meaning they don't geet to be vampires) and resist frost damage something like 50%. Khajiit can still trigger a nighht eye like effect at will and argonians can breathe under water. Those are the only ones I'm certain of in Skyrim right now.

Actually, I think "high elf" would be on about the same level as "lizard" since the proper term would really be "Altmer." It make no difference, though.

Off the top of my head the "cool" radials are: High Elves get +50 Magicka, Bretons 50% Spell Resistance, Dunmer get a power that harms nearby enemies with fire, Orcs get Battle Rage (which is very, very fun), Nords get a Battle Cry, Wood Elves can charm animals, Argonians get a minor heal power and the ability to breath underwater, Kajiit get Nigh Eye and claws, Imperials have a Calm power, Reguard get a power that fortifies their Stamina.

Quote from: Ninja D!
Actually, I think "high elf" would be on about the same level as "lizard" since the proper term would really be "Altmer." It make no difference, though.

Its the name the Imperials use to designate their race, so its not that bad (Altmer call them selves High Elves occasionally but I've never heard an Argonian call himself a Lizard).

If you listen, the Imperials also call the Altmer homeland "Summerset Isle" rather than calling it "The Dominion". Subtle little jab at the Altmer there.

A little sad to have that entire racial panoply and then not have any differences between them. Like, the way I hear it both the Altmer and the Imperials are stirring up some trouble in Tamriel at the time when Skyrim is set so would be cool to see some reactions to that. And of course Argonian and Khajiit racism feels like it might be a fit for the setting (considering the Argonians are constantly referred to as "weird lizard people we know nothing about").

But we have to realize that there are always going to be programming limitations and everything you can abstract from gives you more power to play around with the important things in the game. Having seasons and the like would be a nice touch, but would ultimately add too little to be worth it I fear. (especially since they already have random weather in place)
Time-based gameplay is interesting as a concept, but I seriously doubt it would work well for an open-ended sandbox RPG. It would force people to play by certain rules and less experienced players might miss out on things because the game was unfairly restrictive or required too much. Simply put, I think it'd detract from the overall appeal of the game. (I think it'd be pretty cool myself, but from a game design/entertainment point of view it sounds messy)

I have never played a Bosmer. That guy in the beginning of Morrowind annoyed me way too much for me to ever consider that an option.

Which guy in the beginning of Morrowind? The first person you see is dunmer.

Also, the home of the Altmer IS the Summerset Isle(s?). The Aldmeri Dominion or whatever seems to be their new government. It's sort of like Cyrodil and Skyrim are part of the Empire.

I can't recall his name but I seem to remember him having something to do with a magic ring or a romantic proposal or some such...
EDIT: he is in the starting town. Never said he was the very first person you see in the game. You see him fairly early though, he is right outside the imperial office IIRC.

Fargoth

Oh goddamn Fargoth. Yeah, that's a reasonable reaction to him. Screw him.

Seasons would be extra cool far enough north. You'd get days that were mostly night or day. Seasons that would be heaven or hell for vampires (for mechanical perspective). Since the Burning of King Olaf was supposed to be yearly, that'd be a good one for a time limit too.

Okay, admittedly, you could get some crazy 30 Days of NIght action with that taken into consideration; that'd be pretty awesome.

Quote from: Ninja D!
Also, the home of the Altmer IS the Summerset Isle(s?). The Aldmeri Dominion or whatever seems to be their new government. It's sort of like Cyrodil and Skyrim are part of the Empire.

Actually, the Thalmor is the name of their Governing body, Aldmeri Dominion is the name of their Country and Summerset Isles is the name of a constituent nation in the Dominion. However, the Altmer re-christened their isles with the name "Alinor" after the (re-)creation of the Dominion. Calling their land Summerset is a dig at the High Elves because it evokes the memory of Imperial control (much like the name High Elf does).

I've been playing an stealth archer and having fun with that. Choosing perks is rough though, as even for that build I find Enchanting and Smithing have a lot to offer.

It seems to me that the smithing perks would lose their value pretty fast?
It doesn't really matter that you can smith elven if you already have a suit of glass?

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
It seems to me that the smithing perks would lose their value pretty fast?
It doesn't really matter that you can smith elven if you already have a suit of glass?

Smithing lets you enhance weapon and armor effectiveness IIRC. So sure you already have the best armor you can smith, but you can use your skill to enhance that armor.

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
It seems to me that the smithing perks would lose their value pretty fast?
It doesn't really matter that you can smith elven if you already have a suit of glass?

Smithing lets you enhance weapon and armor effectiveness IIRC. So sure you already have the best armor you can smith, but you can use your skill to enhance that armor.

Not to mention how much money you can make by crafting fine quality armor and Jewelry.

Smithing continues to be useful as a money maker even when yopu don't use that kind of weapon or armor. I wear heavy armor but I still smith light. I even still make iron armor frequently. Then I improve it and enchant it before selling it. I gain XP in two skills and make gold in the process...while killing A LOT of time.

Also, it appears that I am not entirely up to date on recent lore. I do know, however, that one load screen says that Thalmor is the name given to the agents of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Here is a link to an in-game book that explains everything that happened between Oblivion and Skyrim: HERE (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War)

I shall have to check that out.

How does one "invest" in this setting? It's something you can do in this game, I think. There's a place in the start menu that counts the businesses you've invested in.

Quote from: beejazz
How does one "invest" in this setting? It's something you can do in this game, I think. There's a place in the start menu that counts the businesses you've invested in.

I think it's a Speech perk that lets you invest in a merchant.

Getting married can be a lot like investing, if your spouse likes mercantile activities. My Orc's wife provides me with a steady (if cozy) income and food!

Quick question, before I go and mess everything up - when creating a new character on the PC version is there any risk of losing your old character, and how do you prevent that?

Every time you save makes a new file. Just be careful to not delete your previous character when saving/deleting saves.

That's the thing I was worried about - it looks like it automatically moves old files down as you save, and I'm worried too many auto saves will overwrite my old character. Is it only a concern for manual saves?

Manual saves stay there. Do not rely on Auto-saves, they get over written every time they save (they don't care if they're saving over a different character).

Alright, thanks. :)

Investing requires a Speech perk. The best part is that they will act like a fence for you, with another perk. I already have a cupboard full of stolen jewelry for the day I get that particular perk.

I'm playing a level 24 Dark Elf warrior/necromancer who joined the Dark Brotherhood and has since [spoiler]become head of the organization and Listener to the Night Mother[/spoiler]. I've run into several bugs. I've been spending a lot of time just running around, exploring and undead hunting, and this being my first Elder Scrolls game, am absolutely overwhelmed by the amount of material in this game as well as the soundtrack (seriously, every track just fits). However I'm pretty disappointed with the combat system.

My next character is going to be an all-out mage, I think. My current character is a lot of sneaking and minimal magic other than healing and raising the dead, so I think it'll be nice to be an opposite. It seems that the Sneak tree combined with the Archery perk tree is ridiculously good; is this normal in Elder Scrolls games?

Where do you join the Dark Brotherhood... I've killed several people for no reason and Skyrim's version of Lucian Lachance has not beckoned me into his secret order... :(

I love the idea of playing an assassin-necromancer....
"He sneaks into the house at night ... THEN HE REANIMATES THE DOG. Then he leaves"

The IGN wiki (http://www.ign.com/wikis/the-elder-scrolls-5-skyrim) seems to have a bit on the Dark Brotherhood under side quests.

My girlfriend has gone through it - The Dark Brotherhood quest line starts with the orphanage quest in Riften.

Sneaking and using a bow does tend to get things done. From experience I can tell you that thee only real balancing factor is you're probably in trouble if you get surprised.

This game has quite a few bugs but they're almost all minor and only a couple break anything. For Bethesda, this is incredibly stable.

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
I love the idea of playing an assassin-necromancer....
"He sneaks into the house at night ... THEN HE REANIMATES THE DOG. Then he leaves"

The IGN wiki (http://www.ign.com/wikis/the-elder-scrolls-5-skyrim) seems to have a bit on the Dark Brotherhood under side quests.

I love that, too.

That actually has made me feel like I want to make my next character something a little bit more than just a mage.

Who would have thought someone could come up with an original character concept in Skyrim :P

It's mostly in how you play it, I guess. You look into the skills and everything will start to blur together.

Yeah, but as opposed to some other roleplaying games I think Skyrim is more about the world and the events of said world than it is about the character. The "character"  is more of an observer and a tool the player can use to manipulate the world through. A legitimate avatar :)
(oh, yeah, still haven't played the game so feel free to shoot this down. I did feel like this was the case in Oblivion though and to a lesser degree while playing Morrowind)

I'd say that was more true about Morrowind than the other two. Oblivion and Skyrim boh have big things to draw you to the main quest.

Between Morrowind and Oblivion, Morrowind was the only game that made me feel like I had a real character and a place in the story, as opposed to just being some glorified errand boy/player-world interaction tool.

At the end of Morrowind, you become Dunmer Jesus. Awesome.

At the end of Oblivion, you become a glorified gofer who watches the real hero save the day.

I disliked Oblivion when I was playing it, but decided to read the plot summary just to be up-to-date for Skyrim. After reading that I was kind of glad I didn't play through it to the end.
(of course a purely personal opinion!)

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
I disliked Oblivion when I was playing it, but decided to read the plot summary just to be up-to-date for Skyrim. After reading that I was kind of glad I didn't play through it to the end.
(of course a purely personal opinion!)

I played through the darn thing, can you imagine my disappointment?

Quote from: Elemental_Elf
At the end of Morrowind, you become Dunmer Jesus. Awesome.

At the end of Oblivion, you become a glorified gofer who watches the real hero save the day.

Well, you're the hero history forgot. The one that gets Martin to the point he can make his famous sacrifice. Not as satisfying, but still a relevant player in the story.

Now I didn't love the last battle, as it was spent guarding someone else, which is not at all what my sneaky archer was built for--and the game had encouraged me to build whatever kind of character I wanted up to that point.

Oblivion was nothing it was supposed to be and hooribly flawed. It was still fun when it was what we had but I think we've now reached a point where we can say; Morrowind and Skyrim are awesome. I wonder why they never released Elder Scrolls 4?

I finished up all the Companions stuff this morning and started a new character. I'm going pretty much pure mage, though he will carry and sometimes use a shield. I thought that would be cool. The shield is of pretty limited usefulness and will become less useful as I level but I consider it more a part of the character than the build.

Bethesda is updating  (http://www.bethblog.com/index.php/2011/11/28/skyrim-1-2-update/)Skyrim sometime in the near future.

Of the issues they are fixing, I find this bug horrifying:

"Fixed occasional issue where a guest would arrive to the player's wedding dead"

That's awesome, I wish I could opt out of that fix.

They should write quests around their bugs :P
Bethesda: "it's true guys, it was part of the plan all along. The flying mammoths? Aldmer superweapons. The head buckets? disguised brain parasites. Crashes? Well, we don't want to spoil too much, but there is this one quest where the world ends if the player doesn't stop the villain in time and we wanted to make sure the player could truly identify with the consequences of this disaster"

I had an odd occurrence the other day.

I was in Whitehelm. I decided to mess around and see how many people I could kill before the guards overwhelmed me and either forced my capitulation or killed me. Well I managed to kill about six people before being hauled off to jail. Once inside, I immediately picked the cell door's lock and escaped. Several guards spotted me and gave pursuit. After a heart-pounding chase, I ducked into a house to take a breather and let my stamina regenerate. Well, after a few seconds, a Guard burst into the house... And began swimming in the air! Because she believed herself to be swimming, she could not draw her weapon or interact with me. So I stood, mouth agape, as she she darted and dashed around me like a majestic seahorse. Eventually, several other guards realized where I was and bolted in. Unfortunately for me, they did not create a school of guards. No, they draw their swords and beat my face into the ground, leaving me broken and dead in someone's living room, with a guard gracefully swimming around my corpse, mocking my inability to swim in midair.

I'm sure there is a perfectly logical reason for above (great) story!

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
I'm sure there is a perfectly logical reason for above (great) story!

Yes--that was the quest about the mermaid turned into a guard, trying to get you to return her to her true self. You have to bring her seven mudcrab chitins during the full moon. Then cast Transmute.

Quote from: Ninja D!
That's awesome, I wish I could opt out of that fix.

It happened if you schedule your wedding (which takes place at dawn the next day), but your follower dies between now and then. From what I've read, it also means you fail the wedding quest and don't get married.

Canceling the wedding DOES seem reasonable if someone shows up dead.

I actually really hate that you can't use your weapon or any sort of magic underwater (or even partially in water) in Skyrim. I think that's lame.

Anyways, I had a very strange glitch this morning. I was near Riften. If I were to turn around, I probably could have still seen the main gate clearly. It was after dark and I was going somewhere. I don't remember where I was going or what quest I was doing / had active. There were some things flying around so I figured I'd gather some of those alchmy ingredients that you can only get at night. First I snagged one of those glowbugs. Nearby, I saw a glowing moth. I went after that. It landed on a bush so it could be a nice, easy target for me. I activated it and nothing happened. That's fine, it happens sometimes. I probably just missed the spot by a hair. I did it again. And again. And again. Each time, I got nothing. It must have been on about the fifth try that, all at once, the moth vanished and was replaced by a dead rabbit, which fell straight to the ground, and I still had nothing added to my inventory.

Quote from: Ninja D!
I actually really hate that you can't use your weapon or any sort of magic underwater (or even partially in water) in Skyrim. I think that's lame.

Anyways, I had a very strange glitch this morning. I was near Riften. If I were to turn around, I probably could have still seen the main gate clearly. It was after dark and I was going somewhere. I don't remember where I was going or what quest I was doing / had active. There were some things flying around so I figured I'd gather some of those alchmy ingredients that you can only get at night. First I snagged one of those glowbugs. Nearby, I saw a glowing moth. I went after that. It landed on a bush so it could be a nice, easy target for me. I activated it and nothing happened. That's fine, it happens sometimes. I probably just missed the spot by a hair. I did it again. And again. And again. Each time, I got nothing. It must have been on about the fifth try that, all at once, the moth vanished and was replaced by a dead rabbit, which fell straight to the ground, and I still had nothing added to my inventory.

Ah I see Sheogorath was having some fun with you...

Update is out. A friend is telling me that it broke the textures in the item viewer for him. My girlfriend (on my console) is telling me that it fixed our world texture problems. It sounds like a lot of people are reporting that it broke all resistances of any kind for both PCs and NPCs.

Bethesda : The idiot-savants of game programming.

I had an interesting glitch occur. I don't know if it was relevant, but since completing the Companions storyline (and marrying Aela), I've seen random groups of companions here and there fighting things as I adventured. During one experience, I witnessed a dead Skjor, with only his torso and up sticking out of the ground, gliding seamlessly back and forth across an area with his eyes closed and hands down (as if a dead body had been stood up), with Aela and Njada chasing him back and forth. They were still doing it even though I enticed a few sabre cats into the area to fight, and Aela when I interacted with her still addressed me in that fake, loving fashion as if nothing was wrong. One of the funniest glitches I've ever seen.

Alright, if you like Zero Punctuation or are even moderately amused by it, Check Out The Skyrim Review (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/5020-The-Elder-Scrolls-V-Skyrim) - especially since, as this thread proves, when it comes to Skyrim discussions he is absolutely one hundred percent correct.

I have been waiting for that forever! Damn shooter season. Anyway, good fun as always.

Videos have come to annoy me. I just want stuff written out so I can get through it faster.

Quote from: Ninja D!
Videos have come to annoy me. I just want stuff written out so I can get through it faster.

Meh the point of zero punctuation is less about practical information and more about entertainment.

Quote from: Ninja D!
Videos have come to annoy me. I just want stuff written out so I can get through it faster.

I am so in this boat.  I get mad in most sites when it defaults to vid.  "Thanks for making this take 3 times as long and be less efficient, ..."

I am with you guys there, I hate when portals and news sites expect you to sit through videos, but that doesn't necessarily mean videos are inherently bad. What I dislike is when you try to convey "textual" information through the video format, but zero punctuation was made for the video format so it makes sense. You couldn't do zero punctuation (despite the name) on text, even if you wanted to, but IGN or cracked or whatever could easily do their video stuff on text.

IGN videos can be hell to sit through when you just want a little blip of information that they've hidden somewhere near the end. I've never watched a single video on Cracked but I read them very often.

I just realized yesterday that I need to get my current Skyrim character to a point where I feel comfortable stepping away from it in the next couple of weeks since The Old Republic comes out on the 20th and I get slightly early access.

Does anyone else here think the Dark Brotherhood characters are some of the most likable in the whole game?

Quote from: Zoetrope
Does anyone else here think the Dark Brotherhood characters are some of the most likable in the whole game?

Babette is both adorable and disturbing at the same time. Love her to death.

I'm going to start a sneak very soon here and go through the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

Mage just wasn't for me. It was fun at first but it got old pretty quickly.

Quote from: Ninja D!
I'm going to start a sneak very soon here and go through the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

Mage just wasn't for me. It was fun at first but it got old pretty quickly.

Really? I've loved Destruction and Conjuration. I find I'm able to progress through the dungeons so much faster than with my sniper. And with so many huge dungeons, that's a big deal to me.

I wasn't getting through things faster at all. It was actually taking longer because I had to make sure I was more prepared going into fights. Healing potions, stoneskin, that sort of thing. Then the fights were less entertaining to me.   

I put my focus on Destruction, then added quite a bit of Alteration and eventually some Conjuration.

An armored mage would probably be more enjoyable and going more Conjuration heavy and using a lot of Bound weapons would be for sure.

On my new character, I hit level 10 and had 50 in Archery, AND had someone sending mercenaries to rough me up before leaving Riverrun (which was the first settlement I visited). Make a fine rug, indeed.

Oh, and my new character had my girlfriend nearly in tears laughing when I grabbed an old lady (Anise) by the back of the head and punched her in the face until she died.

Going to roll my second character soon, and actually had a question for the community:

right now I'm playing a battlemage, one handed weapon in my right hand and spell of some variety in my left. The result of this is my playstyle typically consists of pointing my character in the general direction of my foe and then nervously twitching my index finger on my mouse button like a fumbling high schooler in the backseat of his parent's car with limited knowledge of female anatomy while my ring finger attempts to maintain contact long enough to achieve the desired result in spiteful rejection of its partners fumblings, which extends the backseat analogy quite nicely, and while this typically results in everything in front of me falling down in relatively short order, it leaves something to be desired in the "not getting my face torn off" department and a bit of a cramp in my wrist and fingers. I've been thinking about trying a different playstyle, one focused around sword and board with sword and ward being used for casters to help preserve my precious face, but I've no experience with actively trying to prevent my face getting torn off in Elder Scrolls, so my question is - does anyone try this playstyle, and if they do, how does it work for you/how fun is it? (No, I've no clue as to what race I intend on playing yet, so open to suggestion here, though I'm leaning towards really any non-human because I almost never play humans if I don't have to.)

Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Going to roll my second character soon, and actually had a question for the community:

right now I'm playing a battlemage, one handed weapon in my right hand and spell of some variety in my left. The result of this is my playstyle typically consists of pointing my character in the general direction of my foe and then nervously twitching my index finger on my mouse button like a fumbling high schooler in the backseat of his parent's car with limited knowledge of female anatomy while my ring finger attempts to maintain contact long enough to achieve the desired result in spiteful rejection of its partners fumblings, which extends the backseat analogy quite nicely, and while this typically results in everything in front of me falling down in relatively short order, it leaves something to be desired in the "not getting my face torn off" department and a bit of a cramp in my wrist and fingers. I've been thinking about trying a different playstyle, one focused around sword and board with sword and ward being used for casters to help preserve my precious face, but I've no experience with actively trying to prevent my face getting torn off in Elder Scrolls, so my question is - does anyone try this playstyle, and if they do, how does it work for you/how fun is it? (No, I've no clue as to what race I intend on playing yet, so open to suggestion here, though I'm leaning towards really any non-human because I almost never play humans if I don't have to.)

I play sword and shield, and I haven't had difficulty with anything since around level 15. Carry a nonmagical weapon and make sure you locate the Elemental Fury shout for good times. Using a shield will make it fairly easy to survive melee fights that would probably slaughter most other characters. Build lots of health and lots of stamina, with just enough magic to cast some restoration spells, and make sure you take lots of opportunities to practice your alchemy and you should really enjoy such a character.

double post, sorry

Quote from: Ninja D!
I wasn't getting through things faster at all. It was actually taking longer because I had to make sure I was more prepared going into fights. Healing potions, stoneskin, that sort of thing. Then the fights were less entertaining to me.   

I put my focus on Destruction, then added quite a bit of Alteration and eventually some Conjuration.

An armored mage would probably be more enjoyable and going more Conjuration heavy and using a lot of Bound weapons would be for sure.

On my new character, I hit level 10 and had 50 in Archery, AND had someone sending mercenaries to rough me up before leaving Riverrun (which was the first settlement I visited). Make a fine rug, indeed.

Oh, and my new character had my girlfriend nearly in tears laughing when I grabbed an old lady (Anise) by the back of the head and punched her in the face until she died.

As near as I can tell there is no reason not to wear armor as a mage in Skyrim. It no longer seems to weaken your magic at all. Also, double cast + Impact lets Destruction stagger opponents.

Quote from: PhoenixAs near as I can tell there is no reason not to wear armor as a mage in Skyrim. It no longer seems to weaken your magic at all. Also, double cast + Impact lets Destruction stagger opponents.

The reason is that there is a perk in the Alteration tree that makes spells like Stoneskin twice as effective, encouraging people to use them. Also, if you're going pure mage, you're probably not putting anything into your Stamina so your carrying capacity will be crap and armor will take up a fair amount of that.

Even with the double casting and the Impact perk, I never once had my magic stagger anyone and I double cast a lot. I was very disappointed that I had wasted the perk. I assumed it was a glitch that would be fixed eventually.

My sneaky sort of character is doing wonderfully. Pickpocket levels too quickly and I now have that at 100. Archery is somewhere over 50, as is Light Armor. Smithing is steadily climbing. I've done a lot of the cheap tactic of paying for training, stealing my money back, and repeating. It seems unfair but it makes sense for the character. For combat I'm still using claws or a bow. I had been thinking that I would go the One-Handed route but I'm now considering doing Conjuration instead and using Bound weapons.

I love runes. It's fun picking fights with giants and being able to cast offensively at them while running with my back towards them. They can't keep up.

Hey, random question, just curious if I'm the only one who does this: Do any of you all assign backstories to your random NPCs? I married Yslonda and she was all about the caravans, so I like to pretend that while I'm out adventuring she and Lydia are traveling with a caravan and that's where the money comes from and she's always in whiterun when I get back because I schedule my return trips around her caravan's routes...does anyone else do that?

Nope. I wish they included more story in the games without me having to insert it, though.

Quote from: Xathan Dovahkiin
Hey, random question, just curious if I'm the only one who does this: Do any of you all assign backstories to your random NPCs? I married Yslonda and she was all about the caravans, so I like to pretend that while I'm out adventuring she and Lydia are traveling with a caravan and that's where the money comes from and she's always in whiterun when I get back because I schedule my return trips around her caravan's routes...does anyone else do that?

Hey! She is the Wife of MY devilishly handsome Orc! Get your own wife!!!

But in all seriousness, I pretend Yslonda and my Housecarl just trade with caravans that come to Whiterun because I adventure in Skyrim, I of all people know just how dangerous the province is, and I would never subject that to my beloved.

Also, I often pretend that both Yslonda and Lydia snuggle up with my Orc in bed... Because its cold... And last time I checked a blanket, straw and wood planks does not warmth make...  :shy: :wink: :grin: :shades:

I think they somehow planned for most people to marry her. I did with one character. Even my girlfriend married her (HA! My comment just got dirtier that E_E's!).

Quote from: Ninja Dovahk!!n

Quote from: PhoenixAs near as I can tell there is no reason not to wear armor as a mage in Skyrim. It no longer seems to weaken your magic at all. Also, double cast + Impact lets Destruction stagger opponents.

The reason is that there is a perk in the Alteration tree that makes spells like Stoneskin twice as effective, encouraging people to use them. Also, if you're going pure mage, you're probably not putting anything into your Stamina so your carrying capacity will be crap and armor will take up a fair amount of that.

Even with the double casting and the Impact perk, I never once had my magic stagger anyone and I double cast a lot. I was very disappointed that I had wasted the perk. I assumed it was a glitch that would be fixed eventually.

My sneaky sort of character is doing wonderfully. Pickpocket levels too quickly and I now have that at 100. Archery is somewhere over 50, as is Light Armor. Smithing is steadily climbing. I've done a lot of the cheap tactic of paying for training, stealing my money back, and repeating. It seems unfair but it makes sense for the character. For combat I'm still using claws or a bow. I had been thinking that I would go the One-Handed route but I'm now considering doing Conjuration instead and using Bound weapons.

Bound weapons are very cool. You can't enchant them, obviously, though you can mimic soul trap and banish on them.

What spell were you using to try to Impact? I'm not sure it works on the continuous ones like Flames, but it works every time (at least on PS3) on the ones you charge up and launch.

I think Ebonyflesh is the best armor spell which gives you 100 armor. Doubled that be 200 for a minute. With a full set of smithed Dragonscale and a couple of perks in Light armor (by no means maxed) I"m close to 400 armor, and Ebonyskin would stack with that if I needed it. But really, it's only magic that's a real big threat.

Yeah, carrying capacity was an issue early on, before I got the perk that negates the armor weight (at Light Armor 40 or 50, I think). I was constantly making Lydia carry stuff, before I dismissed her (I was afraid I was going to blow her up after I got Fireball). Now that my spells cost nothing and my health is at 300, I started pumping Stamina for fighting with Bound Blades, with the nice side effect of bonus carrying capacity.

Quote from: Elemental_Elf

Quote from: Xathan Dovahkiin
Hey, random question, just curious if I'm the only one who does this: Do any of you all assign backstories to your random NPCs? I married Yslonda and she was all about the caravans, so I like to pretend that while I'm out adventuring she and Lydia are traveling with a caravan and that's where the money comes from and she's always in whiterun when I get back because I schedule my return trips around her caravan's routes...does anyone else do that?

Hey! She is the Wife of MY devilishly handsome Orc! Get your own wife!!!

But in all seriousness, I pretend Yslonda and my Housecarl just trade with caravans that come to Whiterun because I adventure in Skyrim, I of all people know just how dangerous the province is, and I would never subject that to my beloved.

Also, I often pretend that both Yslonda and Lydia snuggle up with my Orc in bed... Because its cold... And last time I checked a blanket, straw and wood planks does not warmth make...  :shy: :wink: :grin: :shades:

Lol! And Lydia is why I assume she goes out - lydia has a full set of dragonscale she's wearing and a draedic bow, all enchanted, so she can serve her thane by guarding my wife.

Also, does it make it more creepy that the lizard person I'm playing is female in tems of marrying yslonda?

I apologize for reviving this thread, but I have a desperate need to recount the tales of my wanderings through Skyrim.
Or maybe not so much wanderings, as I knew that my worst enemy was my short attention span and that I had better get through the main quest first, thus partly skipping the part of Skyrim most commended by others (i.e. the side-quests/world), although I of course sometimes couldn't quite stop myself from doing this or that.

And so it came to be that I finished the game at a mere level 24, with nary a skill above 60 and with my equipment having stagnated at dwarven plate and a skyforged sword 10 levels before.
I played the "ultimate" multiclass character, a redguard with flames in one hand and a sword in the other whose highest skills were destruction, heavy armor and one-handed with smithing, alchemy, speech, and alteration coming second. Honestly, I doubt this is as good a build as I had hoped as having flames in your off-hand is more a matter of convenience than off-hand with the melee/magic fighting style being poorly integrated. You can hack or burn, but not both and definitely not together. 

Spoilers below.

The main story is... unimpressive. It goes from possible intrigue with a twist of civil war to "nah, it's just this one bad guy and hey, there is a prophecy too!". I don't care much for Bethesda's version of all that is dragony, but shouts are awesome. Just a pity you can't focus your character on them more; the recharge time and power of the shouts is a constant throughout the game aside from a single magic item.
The story also seems badly fleshed out, but that might just be because I don't know enough of the game's mythology. 

I honestly don't get all the talk about Skyrim's alleged "freedom of choice". Yes, you can move around the map, but that is about the only damn freedom you are given. Missions are linear and choice in combat boils down to whether you are sneaky or offensive. You get to choose the order in which you do missions, but rarely do you get to choose how to do missions. In the rare instances where you are allowed to go a bit outside the ordinary parameters of the game, it is in heavily scripted events (like a certain big social event in the middle of the game).   

Rarely did the world seem "alive" to me, and I envy you for the moments of immersion most of you have mentioned. The NPCs where artificial, the voice-acting kind of uninspiring and they rarely acted as expected. Also, the companions were ridiculous and suicidal.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a bad game, it just doesn't feel as amazing as most have let me to believe. Neither would I give it top grades nor game of the year status on any kind of objective scale. The dangers of hype, I guess.
But it is still a decent and sometimes fun game and I will probably dive right back in (maybe with a new character?) after a short break and explore its wealth of peripheral content.   

Hey Crow, I think it's mentioned as offering freedom for the side quests you said you avoided, while the main story is more linear. But the game is really about those side quests. You can do or not the quests as you please, many can be solved in multiple ways, and they can be done in any order.

For example, you can decide which side of the civil war to fight on, switch part way through, and determine who becomes the next High King of Skyrim or return the land to the Empire.

There are a bajillion things to do, and if you replay parts, you may see entirely different ones. But the main quest is a single static line with little deviation, that's true.

Main story was decent. It feels like a step-up mainly because the plot in Oblivion was not only un-interesting, it was tedious. I believe I was level 62 when I finished the main story, and had to force myself to stop there so I could spend time on other things.

I haven't finished the main quest, but it seems that a lot of the freedom of choice comes from the side-quests and guild-quests.  For example, [spoiler]cities and towns can change Jarls depending on who you side with in the war; there's a quest to rescue a member of Clan Gray-Mane where you can either steal information or blackmail a member of Clan Battle-Born (after discovering his affair with a rival clan-member) to find out where the captured soldier is being held, and then you can choose to find a diplomatic solution with his captors, storm the place on your own, or take a bunch of Gray-Manes with you; there are quests whose resolution changes depending on whether you have a companion with you; even within the mostly linear main quest there are small choices to be made which change depending on what other quests you've done - like what kind of distraction you want to make at the Thalmor Embassy.  Just a few examples.[/spoiler]  What I really like about the choices in Skyrim is that unlike games like Fable, the choice isn't just between two black-and-white options, the good and the evil.  A lot of your choices have to do with things religion, colonialism, nationalism, self-determination, realpolitik, law vs honour, freedom vs safety, tradition vs progress etc; others have to do with who you trust more in a given situation.

I agree that the immersion is far from perfect, and that sometimes it works better than others.  For me the most immersive moments were either when I seemed to wander into a scene already part way through, like an execution, a quarrel, a debate, a conversation, or a battle, or when NPCs really did things instead of standing around like cardboard cutouts like they tended to do more in Morrowind and Oblivion - like having funerals for dead friends or forming an angry mob to go rid the local caves of vampires or just shrieking zealous propaganda in the town square.

I've only watched Youtube videos of it thus far, but in response to crow:

QuoteI honestly don't get all the talk about Skyrim's alleged "freedom of choice". Yes, you can move around the map, but that is about the only damn freedom you are given. Missions are linear and choice in combat boils down to whether you are sneaky or offensive. You get to choose the order in which you do missions, but rarely do you get to choose how to do missions. In the rare instances where you are allowed to go a bit outside the ordinary parameters of the game, it is in heavily scripted events (like a certain big social event in the middle of the game).  

Rarely did the world seem "alive" to me, and I envy you for the moments of immersion most of you have mentioned. The NPCs where artificial, the voice-acting kind of uninspiring and they rarely acted as expected. Also, the companions were ridiculous and suicidal.

I agree- it seems it would be difficult for me to get into. The dialogue lacks the insinuation and references to your actions that Mass Effect or even Fallout does at times. It doesn't seem like there's much to do with a character after you help them... the NPCs don't seem to grow or be affected by what you do at all?

Also, the writing appears to be fairly poor of the Bulwer-Lytton type- overwrought grandiloquence.

What I'm looking forward to is seeing modders add in more interactions in the early parts of the game that change peoples' reactions based on your choices in the mid or late game or based on if you complete certain 'flag' events. For example, I'd really like to see later interactions with the archer or the bard and the bard's mother based on things that happen at the beginning rather than the end of the line being ok now the Archer is your ally.

Speaking of allies- how hard is it to keep them alive? I would fear to use them due to their apparent fragility?


Steerpike- [spoiler]in that thing I worked out for you I tried to do a little of later reactions being informed by your choices and I realize it takes a lot of time to code for something most people will miss (b/c they don't trigger the flag through their actions) but adding things like that really helps versmilliltude. (Also note- In testing I found that in the version you have the Tavern speeches are a bit bugged in that the 2nd and 3d and 4th encounter dialogues aren't triggering; but I think I hashed it out to work in the next one that I'll send in a little bit. I'm considering getting the program so I can add more, but the combat options and some other limitations of the base program (like the miniscule space for dialogue) are a bit disappointing.)[/spoiler]

Quote from: Light Dragon
Speaking of allies- how hard is it to keep them alive? I would fear to use them due to their apparent fragility?

Not too bad. It depends on what kind of character. Most allies are marked "semi-essential" by the game, meaning that they get knocked down rather than killed by enemies, and enemies will stop attacking them after this. However, you can kill them yourself in this state. So careful with the AoEs.

QuoteThe dialogue lacks the insinuation and references to your actions that Mass Effect or even Fallout does at times. It doesn't seem like there's much to do with a character after you help them... the NPCs don't seem to grow or be affected by what you do at all?

Mostly, yeah. Though people do talk about the things you do all the time. "Hey did you hear some old woman got murdered at the orphanage in Riften?" "I hear they finally cleaned up the trouble with the College." "Oh, are you the guy that..." That kind of thing. Which is a little inane, I guess, but a step toward immersion.

Mass Effect (only played the first one), was more immersive, but I found it less fun to play. Fallout 3 was less fun and less immersive, to me, though still entertaining.

>>Not too bad. It depends on what kind of character. Most allies are marked "semi-essential" by the game, meaning that they get knocked down rather than killed by enemies, and enemies will stop attacking them after this. However, you can kill them yourself in this state. So careful with the AoEs.


Thanks! That was a concern I had- now it's eliminated.

Note: I use Mass Effect as an example because it was brought up previously in a different post.


Freedom in TES games comes from the fact that you can go any where and do anything. Most games give you a fairly discrete area in which to game; these areas amount to a level in which you are expected to defeat the given challenges. Look at Mass Effect, every area is tiny. The Citadel is supposed to be one of the largest hubs of civilization in the galaxy. What do you get to explore? A tiny, insignificant area (especially in ME2). Every world you travel to is basically a level with a bad guy you have to beat, after which the story advances. How do you approach challenges in Mass Effect? Resolve through dialogue or pull out your gun and kill people. Mass Effect's background characters are just that - background. Most cannot talk and many can't even be clicked on.


Honestly, neither game is perfect. Skyrim fails in the immersion through story department while Mass Effect fails in the immersion through a large, realistic world that reacts and responds to you. 

The only game I can think of that sort of bridges that gap is Star Wars: The Old Republic but it has its own failings as well.

I...I just don't know what to say about this (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/01/19/skyrim-mod-replaces-dragons-with-my-little-pony/).

Quote from: Phoenix
I...I just don't know what to say about this (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/01/19/skyrim-mod-replaces-dragons-with-my-little-pony/).

Well on the upside it lets you kill ponies so I am ok with this.

Quote from: Phoenix
I...I just don't know what to say about this (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/01/19/skyrim-mod-replaces-dragons-with-my-little-pony/).

Man, I went to 4chan back in the day, so I've been around the block when it comes to fads and memes and shit on the intertubes.

But I have to say, I don't get this My Little Pony shit.

Big news everyone! They just announced The Elder Scrolls: Online!
(http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/03/june-cover-revealed-the-elder-scrolls-online.aspx)
I have no idea whether I should be ecstatic or depressed...

Both!

I fear for the social lives of many of my friends.

- not developed by Bethesda
- features like these below
- is a MMORPG

= game will suck

Quote-Releasing 2013 for PC/Mac
-Developed by ZeniMax Online Studios
-MMORPG
-250 Person Team
-Started development in 2007
-"This time, saving the world from the awakening of ancient evil is only the beginning. What happens when hundreds or thousands of prophesied heroes all think that they should be Emperor?"
-The game is fully voice acted
-Third person perspective
-The game uses a hotbar to activate skills like other traditional MMOs
-Visually it looks like other Hero Engine MMOs like SWTOR
-The general art style is kind of like RIFT or Everquest 2
-You can't be a werewolf or vampire
-Crafting, alchemy, and soul stones will exist in an unrevealed form
-There will be Daedric Princes like Molag Bal, the primary antagonist, and Vaermina, "whose sphere of influence extends to the dream world and the nightmares of mortals", along with some unnamed others
-Constellations will be in the game a la Mundus stones (which work like guardian stones) and also give the answer to things like block puzzles where you step on the blocks in a certain order
-Tons of towns ranging from Imperial City, Windhelm, Daggerfall, Sentinel, Mournhold, Ebonheart, Elden Root, Shornhelm, Evermore, Riften, and a lot more
-Radiant AI will not be present
-There will be mounts, but no flying mounts
-Fast travel exists in the game in the form of wayshrines, which are also your ressurection point, and you can teleport from one wayshrine to any other wayshrine you have already visited
-There most likely won't be dragons
-Sneaking will be in the game, but how it is implemented is undecided
-They're not talking about pets right now
-There will be no player housing
-There will be no NPC romances or marriage
-"It needs to be comfortable for people who are coming in from a typical massively multiplayer game that has the same control mechanisms, but it also has to appeal to Skyrim players."
-Features most of Tamriel including Skyrim, Morrowind, Summerset Isle, and Elseweyr.
-"Not all provinces are included in their entirety; Zenimax Online is keeping large areas inaccessible to save them for use as expansion content. Nonetheless, every major area is represented to some extent."
-As an example, Windhelm is fully implemented, but Winterhold and the mages' college won't be in at launch.
-There are three player factions:
--Ebonheart Pact: The Nords, Dunmer, and Argoninans
--Aldmeri Dominion: Altmer, Bosmer, and Khajit
--Daggerfall Covenant: Bretons, Redguard, and Orcs
-"Recreateing the freedom Elder Scrolls players expect within the World of Warcraft-style mechanics Zenimax Online is using for this MMO would be impossible without changing the way that players interact with the world."
-As such, the game uses a hubless design
-For example, you don't necessarily pick up a quest to do the following, but if you kill all the necromancers in an undead barrow, a shade you free at the end will reward you.
-However, to help you find these events, various NPCs you talk to will tell you where they are happening and put a marker pointing them on your map, which is obviously totally different than receiving a quest.
-Not all quests will have NPCs that indicate where they are
-The game uses MMORPG genre standards such as classes, experience points, and other traditional MMORPG progression mechanics, but they try to present it "around the core fantasy presented by traditiona Elder Scrolls games" such as traveling around and righting wrongs or seeking riches
-The game world is very large relative to Skyrim
-You can explore almost anything you can see
-the game is set 1000 years in the past
-You can't master every discipline
-The imperials are an enemy to all three factions, lead by the noble Tharn family and the King of Worms, Mannimarco, and are hatching a plot to take over all of Tamriel
-But BEHOLD, Mannicmarco is scheming with Daedric prince Molag Bal to take over the world behind the Tharn's back
-Also, your soul has already been stolen by Molag Bal, which is the reason you can come back from death over and over again, and the starting plot is that you're fighting Molag Bal to get your soul back from him
-Hitting the level cap takes about 120 hours
-Each faction has their own leveling content
-An example quest is the story of Camlorn, where you have to stop evil werewolves who have their eyes set on conquest. First, you have to do a "standard MMO kill and collection quest" to sto ghosts from attacking some mages and soldiers. The ghosts are reliving a battle that the werewolf leader was in. You summon a ghost to find out what's going on, and the ghost tells you to wear her dead husband's armor to re-experience the battle he died in. You then get transported hundreds of years into the past to fight this battle. During this battle, you can choose to save the dead man's wife or to pursue the Werewolf leader. ZeniMax chooses to save the man's wife, who then tells you that the Werewolf leader is weak to fire. This information is helpful when you fight him, but you don't actually need to do this quest before fighting the werewolf leader if you don't want to. Basically, you can skip parts of quest chains if you want, but you get some benefit for playing the whole thing. Also, whenever you go back to the town you just saved, everything there hails you as a hero.
-The game features three faction PvP where you fight to take over keeps and use trebuchets and other siege weapons to help do it. At the high end, you can have 100 v 100 battles. There are also farms and mines you can try to take over. Mots of this happens in Cyrodiil where your goal is to take over and hold the Imperial City to get faction wide bonuses for it. If you have played Dark Age of Camelot, this probably sounds familiar. For those who haven't, essentially the entire zone is a giant PvP area will all sorts of points of interest.
-The most accomplished PvP player on your faction becomes emperor whenever you take over the capital
-When you take over Cyrodiil, you will be able to adventure in it as a hostile city a la Kvatch
-The game will have raids and heroic modes for its dungeons as end game content in addition to faction PvP
-There is also balanced PvP for people who prefer eSports
-The game will also have high end public dungeons
-Public dungeons are essentially instances that aren't actually instanced, so anyone can be in them, so imagine a World of Warcraft dungeon that featured everyone on the server in the area instead of just your party
-There are standard instanced dungeons as well
-Back on the topic of the skillbar, you have a limited number of skills you can use at any given time, and can change them whenever you're out of combat
-The number of skills is equal to (paraphrase) "a light and heavy attack with your current weapon that take up the first two slots, a few more spells related to your class, and an ultimate in the last slot".
-The ultimate is used once you gain enough finesse, which is earned by doing well in combat
-You also get a bonus loot chest if you're soloing and max your finesse, and you can also build finesse by comboing with other players
-For example, a rogue can put oil on the ground that a mage can set on fire
-A fighter can also spin in the firestorm a mage puts down, which sends out fireballs
-If you've seen Guild Wars 2 videos, the above will seem familiar
-You can't combo with the abilities of enemy players though, so if an enemy faction player drops an oil slick, you can't set it on fire
-The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood will be presented, but in what form isn't detailed as their contnet is hard to recreate in an MMO setting
-NPCs will try to work together and use player like behavior when fighting you, and (at least to my understanding) have stamina as well
-They want the AI to be good, so instead of enemies in a dungeon sitting around and waiting to be pulled, you will be attacked by the entire room and they will try to react to how you are playing
-The claim was not demo'ed to Game Informer
-You destroy dark anchors to gain reputation with the Fighter's Guild. They are large hooks that fall from the sky pseudorandomly and have Daedric guardians next to them. They are easier to kill with a group, and once destroyed, everyone who participated gets a reputation boost with the Fighter's Guild, and eventually nets you rewards like new skills and abilities.
-The combat model will not be real time due to latency
-The combat is based around a stamina bar which you can use to sprint, block, interrupt, and break incapacitating effects
-Blocking is the primary focus of these abilities, and can do things like stopping the secondary effects of attacks such as an ice spell slowing you
-Stamina also applies to PvP, so stamina management (and wearing down your enemy's stamina) is important, as your crowd control abilities might be on a long cooldown, and if you use them before the enemy player runs out of stamina, they will probably just block the effect
-ZeniMax feels that having the stamina bar will help break down the Holy Trinity as stamina allows you to do things like tank
-However, healing is still a big part of the game
-There is also no aggro mechanic in the game, which is part of the reason stamina blocking and healing exist

It sounds like they are trying to make the game feel less like an MMO, which is good. That was my biggest complaint with The Old Republic; that for all its shininess and voices, it was just another MMO where I hit 1, 2 and 3 repeatedly to win. I dislike that there are going to be classes but I understand why they have to exist. MMOs would not have successful PVP if everyone could use every weapon, every armor and every spell. I like the fact that it will feel more like guild wars with limited number of combat options while in combat. Also, it sounds like I might be able to actually use an X-Box controller instead of a mouse and keyboard, and that's great news!

Real time combat is a pipe dream due to latency but I hope they make the game feel less turn based than other MMOs.

So this game will be set in the 9th century of the second era. Probably the middle part of that century, after the Aldmeri Dominion is formed but before Tiber Septim uses Numidium to conquer Tamriel in 896. So, the game will have to take place between 830 and 896, probably closer to the latter as it allows the Imperials the chance to really threaten their neighbors.

Quote
-"Recreateing the freedom Elder Scrolls players expect within the World of Warcraft-style mechanics Zenimax Online is using for this MMO would be impossible without changing the way that players interact with the world."
-As such, the game uses a hubless design
-For example, you don't necessarily pick up a quest to do the following, but if you kill all the necromancers in an undead barrow, a shade you free at the end will reward you.
-However, to help you find these events, various NPCs you talk to will tell you where they are happening and put a marker pointing them on your map, which is obviously totally different than receiving a quest.
-Not all quests will have NPCs that indicate where they are

To be honest I'm not too hot about this whole thing, however I will admit that this is pretty cool. I like the concept and it does break a bit with much of the traditional MMO fare.

Quote from: Elemental_Elf
I dislike that there are going to be classes but I understand why they have to exist. MMOs would not have successful PVP if everyone could use every weapon, every armor and every spell.

See I kind of disagree with this. Both Runescape and Eve Online do quite well allowing everyone to access everything. There's some tricks to doing it well but I feel that they both do (or in runescape's case did, I'm thinking mainly of the old days with the original pvp system).

Quote from: Elemental Elf
Real time combat is a pipe dream due to latency but I hope they make the game feel less turn based than other MMOs.

Maybe, depends on how it's done. There are actually a couple real time multiplayer things like that (m&b multiplayer for example). The big limit is in how many players you can handle in an instance at once without slowing things down. I've seen it successfully done with up to 128 people in one area but it requires serious optimization. Who knows though, as technology marches on the pipe dream may become more and more of a reality.

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Elemental Elf
Real time combat is a pipe dream due to latency but I hope they make the game feel less turn based than other MMOs.

Maybe, depends on how it's done. There are actually a couple real time multiplayer things like that (m&b multiplayer for example). The big limit is in how many players you can handle in an instance at once without slowing things down. I've seen it successfully done with up to 128 people in one area but it requires serious optimization. Who knows though, as technology marches on the pipe dream may become more and more of a reality.

Check out TERA Online as an example here. Yes, you still have your hotkey abilities, but those abilities have to be aimed. I play a lancer tank, for instance. I need to block with my shield to prevent damage, and as expected I can block only frontal attacks in such a manner. Also, if I want to stab with my lance or use any other ability, I have to drop my shield in order to do so. Archers need to aim, healers need to aim. At first, I thought it would be a huge mess, but it's actually fun, and I mean fun in the way that I can ignore the HIGHLY forgettable quests which is a huge leap considering how invested I get in story (story was why I could forgive SWTOR on their genre-standard combat execution.)

Class systems tend to exist in games like this more as a result of the player base and not so much the developers just copying a tried and true system. When you leave the options wide open, you let players take the risk of having an underdeveloped character into their own hands. If they don't meet the standards of the players around them, group content is going to be difficult to tackle. Not to beat a dead horse, but World of Warcraft is a prime example of this. If you didn't conform to specific talent sets, you weren't "on par" with others of your class and far less likely to get invited back to a group. Blizzard did one major revamp of talent trees for Cataclysm to allow more freedom to the players while ensuring characters retained their core skill sets. With Mists of Pandaria they are revamping talent trees yet again to make them less important in the characters prime role.

Breaking with traditional MMO fare, as Nomadic pointed out, is finally what it's all about. We had a long stretch there of forgettable MMO design based of the 800 pound gorilla in the room. The smart developers knew it wouldn't work and threw their assets at something new. SWTOR gave us STORY, lots of it, and delivered it in a meaningful and memorable way. Guild Wars 2 is doing away with the traditional quest structure and holy class trinity (tank/healer/dps.) TERA gives us actual combat rather than mindless button-spamming.

I sincerely hope the folks at ZeniMax Online are taking a good hard look at whats on the horizon rather that whats "tried and true." Elder Scrolls is an awesome IP and I'd hate to see it's popularity dwindle due to a poor MMO offering.