This was a discussion in chat, with Superman and Batman used as examples of opposing traits. Specifically, the Single Defining Moment of a character. Personally, I'm curious what might develop from this conversation.
Quote[22:41] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> A bit of everything
[22:41] <LizardKing> Alan Moore, on writing comics (specifically, his arch rival, superheroes):
[22:41] <LizardKing> "I was just standing there, looking at my stamp album and the priceless collection that it had taken me years to build, when all of a sudden I realized that since I had foolishly pasted all of them directly into the album using an industrial-strength adhesive, they were completely worthless. I understood then that the universe was just a cruel joke upon mankind, and that life was pointless. I became completely cynical about human existence and saw the essential stupidity of all effort and human striving. At this point I decided to join the police force."
[22:42] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> lol
[22:42] <LizardKing> I HAD A FREAK ACCIDENT IN A LAB
[22:42] <LizardKing> CHEMICALS CHANGED ME
[22:42] <LizardKing> something something...
[22:42] <LizardKing> I'M A SUPERHERO NOW
[22:42] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> That's the dream
[22:44] <LizardKing> indeed it is
[22:46] <LizardKing> in the sense that a single moment never defines a person's character as much as it would a superhero, flat characters like Superman are actually *more* believable than "flawed" characters like Batman or Spiderman
[22:47] <LizardKing> with Superman, EVERYTHING builds him up to where he is, regardless of how bland that might be
[22:47] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> I think Batman is more of a case of a buildup with a kicker that throws it into overdrive, really
[22:47] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> Depending on the source, anyway
[22:48] <LizardKing> you think he had emotional issues before he was an orphan?
[22:48] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> Maybe it should be the other way around
[22:48] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> A wake-up call followed by compounding
[22:48] <LizardKing> which makes it more of a single defining moment, really
[22:48] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> Although different versions of the origin story don't agree with that
[22:49] <LizardKing> with every origin story I've come across, everything else can draw a direct lineage to that single moment
[22:50] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> What about Superman being sent to Earth in the first place?
[22:50] <LizardKing> while he wouldn't have been super-powered, had he been raise by Jor El, he still would've been a decent being
[22:51] <LizardKing> not because of some singular defining moment, but because of constant reinforcement
[22:51] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> But the powers
[22:51] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> If he hadn't have been sent he wouldn't have had them
[22:51] <LizardKing> the single defining moment defined the super, not the hero
[22:51] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> I don't think that's unique, either
[22:52] <LizardKing> note that many stories focus specifically on Clark, and his struggles
[22:53] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> The point of Clark Kent is that he wasn't unique in having the super added instead of the hero added?
[22:54] <LizardKing> right
[22:54] <LizardKing> he's still an exceptionally upstanding citizen, but without LAZERZ FROM HIS EYES, what does that really mean?
[22:54] <Llum> no
[22:55] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> I think you just made a contradiction, LK
[22:56] <LizardKing> in the Superman universe (as opposed to the DCU in general), being a hero isn't enough, so it's somewhat laughable
[22:56] <LizardKing> like CK
[22:57] <LizardKing> Kent strives to be just as much of a hero as Supes, but without TEH LAZERZ
[22:57] <FREAKINAWESOMEHORSE> I don't think that he's that unique
[22:59] <LizardKing> as far as non-supers go, the Kents are the moral ideal
[22:59] <LizardKing> take supers into consideration, Supes-- who is secretly a Kent-- is the moral ideal
[23:01] <LizardKing> Clark is the only one that's a moral ideal regardless of whether or not you take supers into consideration
[23:01] <LizardKing> I'd say that's pretty unique
[23:04] <LizardKing> flat, as his defining feature is being a constant ideal (ie, no change), but unique nonetheless
[23:07] <LizardKing> most people that know Clark think, basically, "more boyscout that humanly possible, but no Strength. or speed, or LAZERZ... ahh, Superman, though..."
I;d like to point out that the whole "last son of Krypton" thing as a defining moment was touched upon in the story Red Son, in which Kal El was raised by soviets. Ultimately, the only thing his Kryptonian lineage defined was his powers, not his ideals. With most superheroes, there's a Single Defining Moment for their ideals. Batman, as one example, though Spiderman fits quite nicely, as well.
What are YOUR thoughts?
I can mostly only go off the movies, but it doesn't seem like the X-Men really fit the pattern, since they are born different and trained to be heroes by attending a school.
Others like the Hulk or Iron Man do seem to fit better.
woh, Iron man is like Batman, one single event changed him from from normal to hero, while compounding events by choice turn them into Supers. Hulk is a little different in this though. Banner is a hero, Hulk is not but Super (he has is hero moments but...) single event yea but only grants Banner Super, he was already hero, but its not passed on to the hulk...
Quote from: Kaptn'Lathwoh, Iron man is like Batman, one single event changed him from from normal to hero, while compounding events by choice turn them into Supers. Hulk is a little different in this though. Banner is a hero, Hulk is not but Super (he has is hero moments but...) single event yea but only grants Banner Super, he was already hero, but its not passed on to the hulk...
Iron Man, I think, is especially apparent in any version that has Stark Industries as a major arms manufacturer. "War is good for business, if you pay me I'll make you better at killing, waitaminute! I'm the only one moral enough to wield these uberweapons!"
Spiderman is another example of a Single Defining Moment. While karma has certainly slapped him plenty of times for being selfish, it always goes back to Uncle Ben. Just once, I'd love to see a story where he compares his dilemma to the time the Sinister Six took advantage of the fulfillment of his wish to be powerless.
I guess with spider man there is two separate SDMs with Super and Hero two separate concepts. The spider bite made him Super, and for a while a SuperPerson, the Uncle Ben dies and he gains "hero".
My take on Stark was that the kidnap/ransom situation turned him from into a "Hero" more than super (yea ok suit mrk 1 was good but...). He gained a consience from that incident. Overtime this pushed him to develop the suit more and more, as he realised with some "Super" he could go good, not just concerned with his own life anymore.
X-men... All born supers (some with a gradual build up ala puberty), some become hero, some villians and some just mutant people. Mutants just dont fit in this concept i think.
Fantastic Four? I think the accident is accually a defining moment for both Super and Hero for them. They were neither before, Dr Reed Richards a little hero maybe...
Captain America is Marvels Superman, a hero first, then the defining Super moment. I think this is a small group.
Green lantarn?
Any one know the defining moment that turned Magneto from Superhero to Supervillian...?
Quote from: Kaptn'LathAny one know the defining moment that turned Magneto from Superhero to Supervillian...?
Auschwitz. His whole philosophy is "never again" taken to scary extremes.
Dresden Codak creator Aaron Diaz has something interesting thoughts on the matter (http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/tagged/batman). He mounts a pretty convincing argument that despite his lack of super-powers Batman is actually less believable/realistic than Superman, based in part around the "defining moments" of the two.
Its not really easy to make a character assessment of characters that have been written by many different writers who took the social/popular trends of the time into consideration when writing the stories.
Superman is boring-he never changes. He is always just good. No man on earth is like that, especially when given immense power. He should be tempted at some point.
Batman is a raving lunatic. A megalomaniac driven by traumatic circumstances. Fitting in with the dark detective stories of Agatha Christie-his character is deeply flawed. Is he a hero? Nah.
Is Superman a hero? Yeah.
just watched both recent hulk movies, i think Banner was a hero first and then became super. A few origins from the marvel universes, but some show him getting the gamma radiation to save others. Banner tries to destroy the hulk in him to prevent damage, protect lives (Hulk likes to SMASH) and to prevent it from becoming a weapon (ala supersoldier). So I guess this makes the HULK, and Superman more realistic than Batman, or Spiderman. Lol
Quote from: Kaptn'Lathjust watched both recent hulk movies, i think Banner was a hero first and then became super. A few origins from the marvel universes, but some show him getting the gamma radiation to save others. Banner tries to destroy the hulk in him to prevent damage, protect lives (Hulk likes to SMASH) and to prevent it from becoming a weapon (ala supersoldier). So I guess this makes the HULK, and Superman more realistic than Batman, or Spiderman. Lol
Definitely. Though, it's been shown (through other characters) that the monstrosity of Hulk is due to otherwise latent psychological damage. I think the earlier movie touched on that.
Amusing off-topic sidenote: In the original origin story, he got the powers by trying to push a kid (Rick Jones) out of the blast radius of a gamma bomb, but couldn't get himself out in time. The kid wasn't entirely out of the way, either, and picked up some temporary powers. Let me restate that: He got superpowers by saving someone from-- but not himself escaping-- a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION.
[spoiler=Insensitive comment]Taken at face value, this explains a
lot in anime.[/spoiler]
I don't like Clark/Superman because there is no depth to his character; at least there is no depth in anything I've read or seen. I would love to write a Superman story to explore why he's a goodie-goodie, why he's never been tempted, why he is who he is.
What do I think would be a good reason for Supes? I think he's afraid of what he'd become, what would happen to the world and to humanity if he let himself stray from the straight and narrow. I think him being moral and upstanding at all times should be a struggle for him.
There was a Justice League cartoon episode where Darksied came, and Superman had a great "conversation" with him. Superman pinned Darksied into a wall of Darksied's ship, and said to him:
"I like fighting you. You don't know how it is living down there with those humans. Everything is like cardboard. I have to constantly hold back. But with you, I don't have to."
And then he punched him through the ship and out into space. That gave me the idea of there being a struggle. I'd be more interested in him if there were a struggle.
I think Batman is the greater hero, because he has to try harder. Batman faces the dregs of humanity, and it has been shown in the comics that Superman couldn't clean up Gotham (at least during the "No Man's Land" story).
As for the original topic, I do think Superman's defining moment was being adopted by the Kents. Like said, in the Red Son, Kal-El turned out differently when he was raised by different people. He was too young for his father to have imparted anything upon him. Plus, without his powers, he just would have been a nice guy, he wouldn't have decided he needed to do anything more.
It's like Spiderman's "with great power" thing, only Superman didn't have a defining tragedy to get him started.