The Campaign Builder's Guild

Now, my general dislike of most D&D settings is no secret as I find them somewhat bland, but also hard to suspend my disbelief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief) for. Most of that issue is tied to the over-abundance and illogical use of magic in the settings (I thought Ebberron did a good job of actually making magic more believable within itself, despite the setting's other flaws), the lack of depth and conflict amongst and between different races, religion and the way that the gods work, and - while this ties into my first point - the fact that magic is really not "magical" and exciting.  

Way back in high school, I drew up a map greatly inspired by the Baldur's Gate II world map (http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/baldursgate2/maps/hugemap_large.jpg). The setting focused on a single large city with several outlaying towns, vague borders to other lands, and plenty of neat places. It wasn't the most original or well-developed setting, but I always have toyed with getting back to it and building it back up from scratch.

So I guess what I would like to do is make a setting using the basic rules and premises of 3rd Edition D&D (not 4th Edition World of Warcraft D&D), such as races and classes, and make a setting or even an adventure, that does justice to it. Like Gary Gygax's and George R.R. Martin's lovechild.

Issues w/ Races- Elves have never made sense in D&D settings. If they can live to 700 years, why don't they rule the world? Elves get to live, approx., 10 average human lives. With age comes experience (not in the XP sense), and with experience comes knowledge, and with knowledge comes power. I know elves are "good", but that always seemed a weak excuse, just an easy out that, once again, makes no sense (alignment in general makes no sense, but I digress). Considering that elves in most D&D settings are basically just fancy humans with pointy ears, they just never seemed to be a well fleshed-out race.

Dwarfs are not much better, although they are slightly more believable as they have many more flaws (flaws=interesting) than the perfect elves do. Halflings and gnomes always seemed to be afterthoughts and half-races just seemed lazy, right along with sub-races. (And considering the plethora of half-races available to pick from, there are a lot of unanswered genetic and anatomical questions.)

Classes- While left more open-ended and dependent on the setting than races were, they never seemed to inspire awe like I thought they should. Wizards and sorcerers never seemed rare enough and never seemed to reach the awesome mystery that Gandalf had. Fighters were cool if done right, but lacked the romantic panache of other classes. Clerics, meh. Rogues were cooler when they were called Thieves. Once again, classes were something that Eberron did right, making the PC classes rare and keeping the overall levels low.

Magic - I'm pretty sure most of us agree that magic is way overdone, trite, and, well, not that magical. I was looking in the PHB from 3E today, and was thinking what a fireball spell was capable of. I mean, that's pretty dangerous stuff, and as far as D&D is concerned, available to someone of level 5 (whatever that converts to). In a setting where humans are assumed to think like humans, a handful of moderately low-level, unhinged Wizards with some fireball spells could wreak havoc in any given city.

And when it comes to items, I'm not sure they could be named any more generic. +1 longsword...snore. Potion of cure light wounds...snore. Can you imagine people haggling over something called a +1 longsword?

That all being said, and my ranting finished, there is still lots of potential in the classic premise of a D&D-based setting. While D&D no doubt has plenty of faults, it's still the proverbial reference point. I think a low fantasy, well planned and well explained setting based on the core premise of D&D3e could be pretty cool, in a retro, nostalgic way. I think focusing on a single kingdom would be much easier and a good way to see where this goes rather than take the whole cosmos on off the bat. I have a few good (I think, at least) ideas on how to implement elves and dwarves, a few thoughts on the physical setting, and a general idea of the history of immediate.

Spoken like a man after my own heart. After I finish up with Shattered Spectrum, I'm going to make a world much like you described (if there are races beyond Humans, they probably won't be playable; I want things like Elves and Dwarves to be very special and identifiably different creatures. Maybe even alien on some levels. And they certainly wouldn't be very prominent). I'd be interested to see how you'd implement them.

On the topic of magic, I couldn't agree more. I want magic to be in the hands of extremely practiced and specialized individuals who don't know it like the back of their hand. I'm sick of there being spells to do X and Y; I want magic to be pure, raw, creative energy put at the whim of a person. No more "I prepare a Fireball spell." In fact, generally speaking, I want people to be both fearful and awestruck by magic. I want it to be rare, to be mysterious, and to be beyond casual understanding, even by its most experienced users, and that it's not the answer to everything. No more "cast this spell to let me fly over the cliff," etc. There are things it can and can't do, and it's not so easy to just cast a spell off like that.

Of course, that diverges from the core of D&D 3rd edition, but I'd like to throw out that I am interested in this project. I do love D&D, with all its flaws, as it's something I grew up on.

Let's talk.  I wrote something very similar to this 20+ years ago. I think we'd have a lot to say.  A lot of it also is affected by what you mean as D&D.  0D&D and 1E are verydifferent from later generations.

As for the Elves (the Syl'uwy'cyn in their tongue), alien is the word. I was thinking they would be the original inhabitants of the immediate area of the setting, but fought a war ~2,000 years ago with the newly arrived Humans (Human being a corrupted form of huw'mahn, an Elvish word that roughly translate into "bastards of the sea") from across the western oceans. A great truce was made after ~1,000 years of war, and the Elves still inhabit a great, primordial forest that is still a great mystery to Humans and forms the eastern edge of the known world. Culturally, I plan to make them a mesh of savage and refined. Ruthless warriors with a poetic bent.

Physically, they would be severely lithe and thin, but quick of mind and body: so not much of a change there. Maybe throw in strange colored eyes, porcelain skin, and jet-black hair just for kicks. However, in contrast to their theoretical immortality, I was thinking that they would go mad or develop some great melancholy as they aged, eventually succumbing to the ravages of the mind before the body. They would fear this madness more than death, in contrast to the mortal humans, who fear death above all else.

Quote from: LeetzDwarfs are not much better, although they are slightly more believable as they have many more flaws (flaws=interesting) than the perfect elves do. Halflings and gnomes always seemed to be afterthoughts and half-races just seemed lazy, right along with sub-races. (And considering the plethora of half-races available to pick from, there are a lot of unanswered genetic and anatomical questions.)

Magic - I'm pretty sure most of us agree that magic is way overdone, trite, and, well, not that magical. I was looking in the PHB from 3E today, and was thinking what a fireball spell was capable of. I mean, that's pretty dangerous stuff, and as far as D&D is concerned, available to someone of level 5 (whatever that converts to). In a setting where humans are assumed to think like humans, a handful of moderately low-level, unhinged Wizards with some fireball spells could wreak havoc in any given city. [/quote]And when it comes to items, I'm not sure they could be named any more generic. +1 longsword...snore. Potion of cure light wounds...snore. Can you imagine people haggling over something called a +1 longsword?[/quote]+1 longsword[/i] is lame. However in game terms, these things seem to be pretty common. It's only worth something like 2000 gp, which while is a ridiculous amount for a commoner, is not a huge deal for adventurers. I don't think that each +1 longsword deserves its own ancient history and unique name, it's still a relatively common tool. So something like a Blazesteel longsword or Quartzcore longsword, denotes that it's a special longsword, but nothing wondrous.

For potions, I disagree. Potions are utilitarian item, you want to know exactly what it does in the simplest terms. Easiest way for this is to just name them Potion of X. Potions are also relatively easy to make/distribute in 3.x (I believe). So once again they wouldn't be something wondrous, just extremely expensive (for the common man) specialty item.
 

Quote from: LlumSo when our Hill Giant buddy comes over to Genericshire and starts raising a ruckus, they have to send a messenger out for someone important to come deal with it. Maybe a Baron, or a King.

Unless the setting in turn makes monsters less common. Instead of a hill giant, it is Guthmog, the giant of the Western Wold. This also in turn leads to a fable-like treatment of monsters, instead of just cannon fodder. Monsters, IMO, are unfortunately given the same treatment as magic: too much, too common, too impersonal. Now, obviously every monster can't be of such a legendary status, and cannon fodder (sword fodder?) is fun to wade through with weapons swinging, creatures like giants, dragons, and even trolls (Grendel?) should be nemeses, not XP banks.

That is how I wrote some of the more wondrous things in a few low fantasy settings I've never really taken very far.  Monstrous and wondrous beasts are few and far between (implied to have been in population decline before humans started to dominate, otherwise they probably would have rolled us).  If there's a vampire, its THE vampire of this region.  If there's a demon, a lot went to summon even that one.  Much of the horror comes from it being otherworldly, and the larger implications of being able to bind one / make one.  A zombie is a frightening thing, difficult to destroy and all that.

Similarly magic, especially things that destroy or do visible things, stem from innate talents that had to be trained up.  Typically, these settings never had books that could teach you how to throw a magic missile - that was something innate to you (sorcerer side of the wizard/sorcerer spectrum).

I will admit though, I don't fully understand what you mean about not liking spells that do X.  If I'm a wizard, do I just make "magic happen"?  Is that functionally different from spells that do X?

M.

Quote from: LlumSo when our Hill Giant buddy comes over to Genericshire and starts raising a ruckus, they have to send a messenger out for someone important to come deal with it. Maybe a Baron, or a King.

a[/i] hill giant, it is Guthmog, the giant of the Western Wold. This also in turn leads to a fable-like treatment of monsters, instead of just cannon fodder. Monsters, IMO, are unfortunately given the same treatment as magic: too much, too common, too impersonal. Now, obviously every monster can't be of such a legendary status, and cannon fodder (sword fodder?) is fun to wade through with weapons swinging, creatures like giants, dragons, and even trolls (Grendel?) should be nemeses, not XP banks.
[/quote]

True, that's one logical extension of this. However personally I think that goes against the D&D-ness of the setting. D&D is just as much about fighting monsters as it is having a hero IMO. Just as you have your PHB you have your MM. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of monsters made for D&D.

Quote from: Cancerous CheI will admit though, I don't fully understand what you mean about not liking spells that do X.  If I'm a wizard, do I just make "magic happen"?  Is that functionally different from spells that do X?

M.

I'm speaking from purely my opinion, not Leetz, but I meant in the sense that I wouldn't want there to be a list of spells for me to choose from and cast; I just want there to be energy that I can form to be like "make a beam shoot from my hand that binds that guy" when I will it into existence. Essentially, it's the same thing, and it's a spell, but it's not the spell that's written down in the rulebook that everyone gets at level 6. Not everyone will bind a target in the same way; maybe another spellcaster freezes them with paralytic energy, etc.

It's really just a reflavored spell. In my opinion, it would be a different system, but this is all within the realm of D&D, so that's not necessarily an option.

Culturally Elves are good natured and tend to be content with what they have rather than succumb to the baser human instincts such as greed and ambition. They do not rule the world because nothing in the world can challenge them. Elves are the epitome of the post-modern, post-scarcity society. They have everything they want and more, so why bother conquering the lesser races?

Halflings are an afterthought because they represent teh seedy underbelly of Human civilization. Halflings are the Roma of D&D - they wander the various Kingdoms in small groups, typically familial based, and live as beggars, paupers, thieves and entertainers. There's not much to say about them other than that.

Gnomes have long struggled to differentiate themselves from the Halflings, Dwarves and Elves. The most popular concept is the Tinker Gnome which began in Dragonlance and found acclaim in Warcraft. Many do not like the more modern elements Tinker Gnomes bring to a setting, so the Gnomes are cast aside as a half-formed idea.

Gandalf was more like an Angel than a Wizard.

Mechanically that Long Sword is +1, flavor-fully that sword pierced the heart of a great Wyrm and saved the King's daughter from certain damnation. Just because the game makes it sound uninteresting does not mean its boring in the game world.

I think D&D works best in a more LotR style low-magic world but that's me.

I think D&D works best when it either a) goes for the lower-magic, fable like approach, or b) goes really, really far in the other direction, i.e. Planescape or, to a lesser extent, Eberron.  The first is sort of the Lord of the Rings approach, the second almost more of a low-tech Star Wars approach.

I also quite like the Underdark stuff, hence my old Goblin campaign... man that's still not finished... damn I'm lazy.

Quote from: SteerpikeI think D&D works best when it either a) goes for the lower-magic, fable like approach, or b) goes really, really far in the other direction, i.e. Planescape or, to a lesser extent, Eberron.  The first is sort of the Lord of the Rings approach, the second almost more of a low-tech Star Wars approach.

I totally agree - it either has to be near or really far away from reality to work properly. Settings like Forgotten Realms have so many plot holes that the ability to suspend one's disbelief is strained to the extreme.

Maybe I should refine what I mean by D&D setting.

I was reading an article about Gaudi the other week, and he was attributed with a quote that said "Originality is returning to the origin." I thought it was really neat, but at first it really didn't make me think of anything CBG-related. However, I eventually started thinking about really old school D&D (I first started playing 2E, but I know 3E the best) and how there seemed to be a relative dearth of any commercial setting that tapped into that classic vein. Eberron is Eberron, the new Forgotten Realms seems ridiculous, even the new 4E seems like pen and paper WoW.

In light of that, I thought it would be neat to work on a classic, D&D-inspired, fantasy setting. Now, I know the definition for classic is different for everyone, but I think that most of us can at least agree that Elves, Dwarves, and Humans are classic elements. Warforged, half-dragons, and Eladrin are not. I'd like to take flavor text as far I can, but much of it seems hollow and immature. Especially concerning races.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just make a really, really nice wheel.

@E_E: Yes, low-fantasy is the idea. As I mentioned earlier, George RR Martin ala Gygax. But I think how you described Elves is why they're so boring (to me at least;)). They have no flaws in a literary sense. Flaws bring conflict, and a story with no conflict isn't on that pulls you in. Also, I couldn't agree with you more on FR.

Aren't there a hundred of these already out there, though?  Even I have one up on the wiki...

M.

Quote from: Leetz@E_E: Yes, low-fantasy is the idea. As I mentioned earlier, George RR Martin ala Gygax. But I think how you described Elves is why they're so boring (to me at least;)). They have no flaws in a literary sense. Flaws bring conflict, and a story with no conflict isn't on that pulls you in. Also, I couldn't agree with you more on FR.

I think the conflict with the Elves has traditionally been premised on the Drizzt model of one man casting aside the cultural norms of his people to forge a path of his own design. That's interesting to a point but, you're right, Elves typically lack that "marvel comics' flaws' to keep things interesting.

Quote from: Cancerous CheAren't there a hundred of these already out there, though?  Even I have one up on the wiki...

M.

maybe everyone has a soft spot for these settings?

also...

Dwarves-The basic dwarf archetype - clan-based, undergroundy, gruff, likes shiny things - lends itself well to conflicts that D&D ignores by stating that Dwarves are "lawful" or "good", much the way they get around elves (actually, almost how they treat all non-human races). Without their tangible, beneficent deities or a "good" cultural zeitgeist, Dwarves would seem to be very susceptible to clan-to-clan infighting, vengeance, and greed. Civil war could have been the downfall of the Dwarves, scattering any remaining clans far across the world. They dwell in their deep mountain citadels, scheming of ways to increase their wealth and enact retribution for insults 1,000 years old.

While D&D isn't a system I always agree with, it is the system I have most experience with (as do most) and I still play,  so here are my 5 cents:
You say you want a D&D setting, so we have to be careful how much we change it. Too much and you'll have changed the system to fit the setting rather than the other way around. While this is often favorable, it's not really what you want in this situation. You don't want it to lose its D&D-ness as Llum pointed out.  E.g. if you replaced Vancian magic with something totally different it wouldn't really by "D&D" in the strictest sense of the word.

On the other hand, there are many things we can manipulate. To return to the aforementioned wizards, there are a lot of nice holes you can fill with fluff: how they cast their spells and how magic works (the somatic component might in fact be a wild dance, the swallowing of inscribed stones,  or the manipulation of alien relics), how magic is learnt (you have to have "The Spark", you can only cast magic if you have sold your soul), how they interact with others (magic is heresy, church-authorized, only from one country, only weather mages in farming communities), and how it looks (all spells might have black/white visual effects, spells look different from casting to casting, spells give onlookers a brief flash of a dream image).

Items can also be used to good effect when it comes to magic, as seen in Steerpike's Cadaverous Earth. He uses what are basically Vancian mages, but spices them up with the Nectar; an addictive magic-boosting substance which adds a certain risk-benefit consideration into the casting of spells. This could easily be any of a variety of other arcane devices. CE is also an example of a setting using wild names to flavor the spellcasting.

Of course, fixing only the spellcasting won't do much good if all you want to do is make a low magic setting. I don't really think this plays to the (potential) strengths of D&D, but well, different tastes and all that. As Steerpike mentioned previously (although he gave the low magic approach some credit too), D&D often comes into its own when you play to its flamboyant and cinematic side. Also, can't see why Gandalf would be such a role model for the wizarding community. Admitted, I have only seen the movies and read the books (including the Hobbit) , but he hardly ever uses magic (even though it doesn't seem like it poses much of a danger to him) and really, there is such a thing as making your magic too vague.          

Racewise, I understand your dislike of elves. I have never been especially fond of them either. In fact, I think your treatment of them is a little too unradical. I really don't get why elves have to live in forests (please don't mention aquatic elves in a counterargument) and I think you could easily take them further than that. Eberron did a reasonable job making especially the elves more unique (and flawed) if you ask me. I don't get all the halfling hate. Personally, while they did possibly start out as hobbit rip-offs, I don't see them as especially hobbit-y. The gnomes are far more prone to that association (and I really dislike those, since the "crazy gnome" archetype is essentially the only instance of the wretched pests I ever see).  Halflings are nomadic, opportunistic, and cunning. I agree more with E_E's interpretation.

I do agree with your comments about items'¦ +1 sword is a really lame name. We have attempted to call it a sword of the first/second/third/'¦ circle to give it more of an in-game vibe, but in the long run the players are going to break the tension and call the +1 sword a +1 sword. Even worse are the bloody ability enhancers. Those are decidedly unheroic'¦

I'll see if I can come up with more stuff to say at a later date. Good discussion/setting brainstorm either way :)

Ok, well what about desert elves?.... I kid, I kid. I don't want to open the can of worms that is elemental subraces.

On the magic, I really have no real qualms with the way D&D handles it's magic system. While spells are admittedly named in the most bland manner possible, that is more a question of fluff than crunch, and D&D at it's heart is crunch. As much as FR is ridiculous, I think they were on to something when they called magic "The Art", but they dropped the ball when they didn't take it any farther than that. Renaming spells would go a long way to make magic more magical. ex "I cast shield." vs. "I cast the First Circle of Kin-Nal-Ord." or whatever. Planescape: Torment did a better job than most when it came to that.

Low-fantasy here may not have been the best term to describe the setting, but it's better than high-fantasy. A premise of D&D is that the PCs are exceptional, a cut above the rest. Magic and magical things shouldn't be nearly as rare for the PCs as they are for the other 99% of the world, but I think magic should be at the point where you can't buy scrolls at the scroll store, +2 shields at the magic arms and armor store, and selling a magic item would be neigh impossible and unthinkable. I think Wizards should have to quest for scrolls* and wands just as a Fighter would quest for an artifact sword or a Cleric a holy relic. They shouldn't be randomly rolled loot from a chest or an ogre's corpse.

*Especially if scrolls and spells are one of a kind. The legendary wizard Kin-Nal-Ord, to use that name again, could have created something called the Nine Circles of Kin-Nal-Ord, a collection of nine spell scrolls. As far as crunch goes, they could merely by nine spells right from the PHB  (hell, one could be Light, but in the setting, they are unique and quest-worthy items.

As far as Elves go, I think the forest is part of what makes Elves Elves, just as mountains/underground halls make Dwarves Dwarves. It's so ingrained, I think deviating from that would leave the classic behind.

If you want to do the classic sage-wizards, that sounds like an excellent approach. Of course, you are at risk of having many of your wizards be almost identical in their use of magic as they will only have access to the few commonly known spells (if any). A good way to give them some variation right off the bat would be to replace the wizarding schools with actual schools; Kin-Nal-Ord Circle Adepts, Torchholders of Andragast, the Arcane Eyes, The Binders Of Shuzt etc, who'd each have unique spell lists and capabilities.
Do you envision your mages as being only trained under apprenticeships or would there be rare established colleges or secret cabals?
     
Seeing as you want fewer monsters and the like, would this world be mostly settled with fewer wildernesses or how did you imagine that? Just brigands and highwaymen instead of ogres?


Slight digression, but what were the issues you had with Eberron? I agree it has flaws, just wondered what you found particually bad.

Yeah, I was just looking at the 3e spell list, seeing what went well, what were silly spells people never used, and what were good spells that people never used because dousing a room with fireballs was way quicker and easier. But the risk of wizards using the same spells is a good point you bring up (but that seems to happen anyways with the entire PHB to pick from, magic missile at 1st, fireball at 3rd, stoneskin at 5th). However, the rarity and awesomeness of NPCs with PC classes should keep this from happening. Aside from the PCs, I don't think there should be more than, i don't know, 20 NPCs that have PC classes, and remember the setting for now is focusing on a small area, so that's plausible. Plus, the PCs should be awesome.

I also noticed you grouped your schools by magic type (divination, evocation, abjuration, etc.) which is a good idea.

I'd like there to be wilderness and more enemies than just brigands and robbers, but we'd need to think how orcs and goblins (or whatever cannon fodder would make sense) can be cool in this setting and how pull them away from comic relief. Higher end monsters, though, should be exponentially more rare, and I think keeping the monster selection focused will be a good thing.

As for Eberron, it was a neat premise and I liked the focus on low-levels and the high saturation of low-level magic, but I thought it almost had too much going on. Too many races, too many Houses. Plus the regions didn't seem especially unique from each other, aside from the wilderness areas. Also, the map of Khorvaire is Russia, which made me roll my eyes. But I guess my gripes are just little nit-picks, it wasn't a terrible setting by any means.

20 NPC's? In the entire world? Seems a little... harsh. Remember 1st level players aren't that awesome. Low characters in general aren't that awesome. 20 seems a little excessive.
I really don't have that much trouble with character levels. Can't see why city guards couldn't be low-level fighters, even if i'd agree some militiamen and such would like the systematic training required to possess a fighter level. The problem isn't really PC classes, but excessive levelling and automatic associations with status. Kings don't need to be high level just because they are kings for example. Apply PC classes when they are appropriate.

I actually thought the schools could be cross-magic type. They already divide by specialists in the rules by magic type. Schools would allow for more specialized arsenals of spells.

No no, 20 NPCs with PC levels in the immediate local area of the setting (City and surroundings.)

A couple famous/infamous Fighter, a notorious Thief, a Wizard or two, the King's personal retainer, a bandit lord, etc.

Having some NPCs with PC levels is fine, but I think they should be reserved for the exceptional, like the Master of the Guard. Abstractly speaking, Levels are equivalent to XP, which is acquired by doing exceptional things. The average city guard would not have the opportunity to gain more than a few levels, as they don't do too much to push themselves farther.

I think trained military units and war veterans could easily be fighters, you could probably find a few low-level hedge wizards or druids doing petty tricks near many a small village, can't imagine rogues not abounding in the city (although, yes, they are a step above the common pickpocket) and can't see why barbarians from the north would be warriors instead of actual barbarians.

I must say I'm not very fond of bards though. I just can't wrap my head around music giving that much of a boost. Sure, morale is important, but in the heat of battle a song isn't really that helpful... It seems off. I'm not saying you can't have musicians, just that I'd probably make them rogues or experts with perform ranks...

Agreed. As much as I like the idea of the Bard, the execution is poor in D&D. But as for the level/class conundrum, that's a bit down the road. What did you think of the take on the Dwarves?

I always thought the Bards music was magical in nature? I mean he becomes an arcane spellcaster...

As for number of NPCs, I think level 1 NPCs would be a bit more liberal, like a Sergeant might be a level 1 fighter, due to his great deal of experience.

And level 1 thieves would be like, the cities best thieves, where there might be like 1 level 2 or something.

The other thing is that there's a significant increase in strength/ability for each level gained, especially in casters.

The way experience works seems to be there should be something like 4-8 level 1s for every level 2 around, etc.

Hmm, your dwarf interpretation appears fairly classic still. Reminds me of dwarves as seen in Warhammer and Dragon Age; the greedy grudge-bearing dwarf is more of a trope than the lawful good dwarf if you ask me.

And even if the bard's music is magical, I'd still say it is a fairly odd ability (and not in the cool weird way; just scratching-your-head odd). I like the secondary abilities of bards far more; bardic knowledge especially.    

Leetz, I think you really want is the regular typical D&D setting told a different way, than a whole new setting.  If that made sense.

On the Wiki, I have an old setting called Ouroboros; it's not exactly what you want but it might agree with you.  Check it out.  The spirit of it was similar in terms of magic; potions that could heal "one point" worth of damage were not too uncommon, but everything else upwards was.  +1 swords (and their ilk) were named artifacts either in obscurity or well known, and the subject of inter-noble rivalry.  Scrolls took effort to prepare and were not something typically sold (few who could buy it could use it, few magical people wanted to share them, and typically scribed for a specific reason).  Things like that.

M.

EDIT:  And howcome no matter how much people try and alter the core races, dwarfs always stay the same?  Even TVTropes has commented on this.

@CC: The Dwarves are still trope, but like I mentioned, I'm really not trying to reinvent the wheel, just make a really nice one. Take the basic ideas of D&D and look at them in a darker, more mature, intelligent light.

@ the other CC, I will have to look into that, but it sounds nice.

Ah Kindred Spirit!

My disc world is my attempt at making a adult/mature/realistic 80s classic DnD Dragonlance/FR/Harn basterd child.

I found that it didnt become disticnt untill i started to reinvent the races. here is my stuff distilled for some inspiration. Copy and pasted.

The Race of Elf was created by the Lord of the Gods, the God/ess of Nobility, Law, Sky, and Community. His creations are the mortal personification of these ideals compared to the other races. Elves are as the first of the Races has always seen itself as superior to the other races, an innate arrogance born from their father and their long lifes. Elves see themselves as the nobility of the world and the other races as peasants. The Elves excel at nation building but each differs in their methods, as the Sun Elves believe in civilization built upon law, the Star Elves believe it should built upon community, while the Moon elves believe it should be built upon the backs of the lesser races. All Elven races have an attraction to the sky both during the day and at night, especially the Divine Portal known as Sun/Sol or Moon/Luna. As Elven Legend goes, after the Gods were banished from the Disc, the Elves looked to the sky and the Divine Portal for the return of their master. Through devotion to the Portal, only the Elves could hear the whispers comming through it from the King of the Gods and it was from these whispers that the Gods taught the Elves the secrets of magic.

The Race of Man was created by the God/ess of Luck, Love, Money and Travel. Her creations are mortal personifications of these ideals compared to the other races. Dwarves, Humans, and Ogres are all superstitious creatures who belive in luck, Ogres fear bad luck, while Humans embrace good fortune, and Dwarves belive one comes with the other. The races of Man are all passionate creatures, who show emotion openly. Even the stoic Dwarf, as their love and passion is masked behind devotion and loyalty, Humans embrace the whole range of love from lust, to jealousy, and utter hatred. Ogres can barely contain their primal emotions. All races of Men are suffer from Greed, Dwarves hoard their wealth, Humans strive to obtain more through capitalism and manipulation, and Ogres will take from those they see as weaker than them. Though Dwarves live sedentary lives in their holds, every Dwarf must satisfy their worldlust and spend tens to hundreds of years traveling far from home as a part of obtaining adulthood. Humans have notoriously spread themselves all over the Disc, but its the Ogres who, indiviually still live nomadic lifestyles either traveling wild or civilized lands for most of their life.

The Race of Folk was created by the God/ess of learning, magic, writing(runes), and building. The Gnomes and the Pixies are seen as the favored children of this group. Gnomes are the technological masters of the Disc, with inventions devoid of magic that rival the late renaissance and Pixies are living vessals of magic each born with innate magical ability. However the Hobbyts were not blessed with knowledge in magic or science like their brothers, for they were given wisdom. Hobbyts are notorious for staying out of trouble, off the world stage, living peaceful and fulfilling lives with friends and family. Hobbyts however are underestimated and under appreciated in the world. Both their brothers see them as failures, while the other races either try to take advantage of Hobbyts or at best ignore them as inconsequential.

Created by the God of War, Strength, Glory, and Protection, the Race of Gobs are not a race of nation builders. This is not to say Orcs, Bugbears, and Goblins are uncivilized, however they are not social creatures and do not build well. Orcs are the worlds best soldiers, fearless and relentless. They march towards conflict weather it involves them or not. This has caused orcs to commonly become mercinaries, body guards, or soldiers fighting for another. When there is no conflict of others to join, Orcs will gather in numbers large enough to create their own conflict. If Orcs are the consummate soldiers, then Bugbears/Hobgoblins are natural born hunters and stalkers. However they are notorious loners, and rarely gather in large numbers. Like Hobbyts they blend into the cultures of other races well. The Goblins are malitious little creatures that are more defensive in nature than their big brothers. Goblins are fearful of being alone, and seek large groups for safety and protection. A goblin will fight ferociously to protect its group. As pack creatures Goblins are the most social of the Races of Gobs and due to their small size always seem to support the underdog or the helpless.

The Planar races come from the four prime planes that revolve around the Disc. From the Plane of Law, the original home of the Great Old Gods, comes the Soulforged the Gods final creation and servitor. Some would say they lack free will, however the soulforge claim they were mearly created complete and do not hunger for anything in life. Created by the combined power of the Elemental Lords, Dopplegangers lack purpose and a sence of self. However since they were not created by the rigid gods of law, their bodies share they creators chaotic nature, and can change their body shape at will. From the Plane of Good and Evil, born from the first act of free will, come the Assimar and Tiefling respectively. The Assimar are created when a mortal devouts their life to the concepts of Good, Charity, and Love. On rare occasion this person is reborn as an Assimar. However the Tieflings are mortals of another race that has made a pact with a devil or demon. They are then reborn as a Tiefling.

and on to the wiki to get back to work...

That's a lot of good stuff Lath, but I really don't want to get even that in depth with back-stories and creation stories.

As far as I'm concerned, the history of the Setting goes back ~2,000 years, when Man came across the Great Western Ocean after some great catastrophe (perhaps they lost a war to Dragons?). Upon arrival to the current physical area of the Setting, the Elves made war with the newcomers. The Dwarves had since long retreated to their deep citadels. A 1,000 years of on-again, off-again war was waged between Man and Elf until a great accord was struck. The Elves kept the great forest that covers who knows what, Man kept the lands the conquered upon the western coast of the new continent.

Keep in mind, this is just the history for the immediate area of the setting. Along the coast, both north and south, different bands of Human refugees landed, some fought more than others, some fought little. This lets the world's borders be pushed easily, plus dropping rumors of far away lands is always fun. I'm still deciding on whether to make the current area more north or south.

As for creation stories, I'd like to keep anything from being known to be true. Within each race, not just humans, different religions and beliefs should spring up.

Lath does bring up a matter as yet untreated: how do you intend to handle your gods/religions: earth-walking, plane-residing, dead, inexistent, spirits etc

I actually was thinking about that last night.

One thought I had was akin to how arcane spellcasters need to have "The Spark". What if divine spellcasting was the same way? These 'God-Born' children would tap into the divine much the way Wizards can tap into the arcane.

However, that being said, the God's are not tangible like in most D&D settings, but that doesn't keep people from being religious. If these God-Born are from a large city, they are most likely enlisted into the ranks of a prominent temple. Prophet or messiah may be too strong of words, but think of the Dalai Lama.

If they are from a rural area, they may become renowned healers, shamans, wise-men/wise-woman, witchdoctors, etc.  

Just as in real world, region, culture, and heritage strongly influence religion, so "picking" and patron deity wouldn't make much sense. So I think a monotheistic religion will work best. However, that doesn't mean it can't have multiple facets to it, maybe a pantheon of saints, or a single god with multiple faces. A world spanning religion wouldn't be fun either. Rumors of the Seven-Faced God of the southern kingdoms, the Singer-In-The-Stone of the northern mountain nomads, or the cult-demons of the Umbriel all provide great background fluff and keep the world mysterious.

(PS. I never really liked domains anyways, seemed like a lazy way to make Clerics unique. Maybe trim down the spell list depending on the Cleric's general beliefs? So you could have legendary healers, pious soothsayers, or great war-priests)

Quote from: LeetzOne thought I had was akin to how arcane spellcasters need to have "The Spark". What if divine spellcasting was the same way? These 'God-Born' children would tap into the divine much the way Wizards can tap into the arcane.

Doesn't this essentially turn clerics into wizards with a different spell list? The only difference seems to be semantics, especially to some random peasant. What's to stop a wizard claiming that where he draws his magic from is divine rather than arcane?

If there's a monotheistic religious thing going, what if Wizards are the "Satanic" equivalents of the God-Born?  Perhaps the Wizards don't consider themselves fiendish/diabolical and do see the God-Born as nothing more than Wizards with a different spell list.

This opens up a lot of possibilities for oppressive religious structures, witch-hunts, etc.

Monotheism seems to be taking a significant step away from the standard "implied setting" of D&D.

Just sayin'.

Quote from: Llum

Quote from: LeetzOne thought I had was akin to how arcane spellcasters need to have "The Spark". What if divine spellcasting was the same way? These 'God-Born' children would tap into the divine much the way Wizards can tap into the arcane.

Isn't it just for flavor anyways? I mean, as far as I could tell, they really were the same with different spell lists (albeit different BABs and Hit Die), and there were times when the two had the same spells available between them (bards, for instance, got all the Cure X Wounds spells, despite being arcane casters. A cleric of the arcane domain could get Dispel Magic, one of the illusion domain would get Mirror Image or Mislead, etc). With splatbooks it only got worse, but even the core of D&D 3.X had its crossovers.

I can see how giving them a "divine spark" might make flavorful similarities to an arcane caster, but it really all comes down to how you play the class. As long as they remain mechanically different ("praying" for spells every morning or evening), then I don't see it as an issue. If they just spout off spells at a whim, then yeah, it'll be difficult for a peasant to tell the difference, especially if they don't act like a religious person or something.

Also, while changing all the classes is a viable option, you'd again be taking a detour from the D&D-ness of it all. You have to adapt more than change (although small changes and additions are harmless of course).
 
I do like the idea of some humans being essentially "religious royalty"; god-kings worshipped and pampered by their worshippers for their infrequent miracles in temples and shrines. They are not really an adventurer-appropriate character option, though, so you probably have to find another "way in" for clerics.

check pathfinder, you might like their basic classes.

I went down a similar path, and in 3.5 when i got to classes i made three generic classes (pretty similar to the ones in Unearthed Arcana) but with pathfinder there is too much STUFF to simplify to balanced choices. Take a look, if your interested in the generic class option I posted them up here oh so long ago if you want a look.

Classes is a sacred cow i think if you want a DnD feel. I use a mixture of lvl 1 fighters and warriors for town gaurds, but in a town of 500 the sherrif is lvl 3-4ish, 3000 maybe 6-7ish? lots of low level (1-2) PC levels where apropriate for the specialist/skilled non-farmer peasentry. Churches are Clerics and Acolytes (NPC non caster), Nobility must have atleast one level to Aristocrat NPC plus whatever. Peasents are level 0 ect.

I do have a d20 varient I created, just becasue there are some fun, easier things classes can create, especially that mythic, heroic feel.  The feel that 1/100 or less of the population has some ability to improve themselves past the boundaries of the normal.

Fantasy races in general don't make sense in most settings.  My d20 does not use them as PCs, there are instead different cultural human backgrounds.  
What makes less sense in most D&D games is the interaction between the races, and the reality checks.  The elves living so long is one major issue.  One thing you can do with them in a class based system is to make the % of them that can achieve levels lower.  That experience matters less when it does not add significant power, and if there are a higher % of humans who are level-capable, that offsets the wisdom of ages.  Does not mean you can't have some level-capable elves and dwarves, just a lower NPC %, which counteracts any racial/cultural longevity issues.

I actually made my dwarves, gnomes and hobbits all part of the same racial sub-group, to adhese them to the setting more.  They represent the workers, the spiritualists, and the quartermasters of the 'working folk', respectively.  You need to work backwards from history and intertwine them with culture and identiry that is setting-specific.  My Hobyts have overtaken the others to become the most populous race.

Also, almost all races crossbreed in my settings.  JoMalley is playing an elf/ogre crossbreed right now in Igbar.  Just saying.  Throw shit on it's head.
  You don't have to do it, but you can create some pretty cool stories, if, say the short races all crossbreed, or stuff like that.

Classes are something that I needed to make real for me.  I dumped them decades ago for skill based, so one of the ideas of creating a d20 0D&D variant was to create something that classes made sense with.  For magic to work (both divine and otherwise) and not take over the setting, or at least so it does not stretch belief of the players why more things have not changed, you need to have magic being rare.  You NEED to.  
[spoiler=Celtricia text  not totally relevant] I took years working on Celtricia, and something that came up after about year 10 was that the cultures and tech I had in the world was lacking sense based on the way magic had been created.  I had to tweak both to create more setting congruency, but it had a massive effect on the play and the immersion.  All the players had more buy in.  Even last night, on the IRC channel, players were looking at spells and seeing how some of the spells can be used in a social settingl and some were asking how the setting prepares for them, i.e., the fact that since magic is known about to a point, how common is the counterprogramming/expectation that magic is going to be used?
Celtricia is actually at sort of an 'Age of Reason' time period, despite lower tech, due to the places rthat magic replaces technology.  [/spoiler]
This means you literally need a frequency distriution of how many of what power casters you want in thw world, and then back it up with the rules


magic items were always wierd to me as well.  I like to have actual spells tied to magic items.  It is one of the main things later editions of D&D get wrong.  Commonplace is the opposite of special.  Magic items that are commonplace therefore are less than magical-feeling.  
Something I like to do is use a lot of spell charges on items.  a +1 Longsword does become pretty lame.  

By the way, just becasue you have one monotheistic faith does not mean you can't have other religions that are more trad.  Might be a nice setting conflict.  

I was reading through this the other day while I put of packing all my things and thought that this was a decent idea I should at least try to keep going, even if it's for a Holiday one-shot or short campaign. At the second I don't have much time to go too in depth, but the idea of the setting was thus: a mature, somewhat dark, intelligent, fable-like setting based roughly on Gygaxian D&D. Here's a quick list of things.

1. Low-fantasy, low-magis.

2. Focus on a single kingdom with a single important city.

3. Monotheistic religion (At least in the immediate kingdom)

4. There are still elves and dwarves and most of the other races, but they will be seriously over-hauled to be believable species and cultures.

5. A fable-like feeling where monsters are more rare, but more dangerous as well.

6. An increased feeling of lethality as opposed to Vanilla D&D where the PCs are much more powerful than the norm.

7. Rare, dark, and mysterious magics.

8. A "clean" aesthetic, nothing too funky  or anachronistic. Very Tolkienesque.

9. Some ideas for power groups: The King and the Royal House, the Issereme (wizard college), the Temple of the Goddess (better name to come), a somewhat shadowy trade guild (thieves guild), a strong but hidden cult to some older god: nothing new here I know, just some ideas.

Reinventing the Elves

Now, this will be short, as I don't have a lot of time, but by the end of this week, when I'm finally back in the States, I will have plenty of free time and long dark winter nights to sit down a properly work on this. Any how, here is a list of points that I intend to follow through on in order to reinvent the common trope elf, keeping true to the classical ideas, but fixing things are unbelievable, nonsensible, boring, or overly simples.

1. An Ever-So-Brief History. In the Elder Days, before the arrival of Man, the Elves, or as they called themselves, the Syl'uwy'cyn, were the undisputed regents of the East. They of course fought wars against giants and the darker creatures of the older years, but they were never in risk of falling from their wild thrones. Then Man came from across the sea from the West, made war with the Elves, and drove them back to their darkest and deepest forests that spread forever to the east. Now, while the Elves still rule the infinte forests realms of the east, they rest in an uneasy truce with Man.

2. The Elves are not the wise and cheerful stereotype, chaotic neutral instead of chaotic good. They are the caretakers of the forests, they do so with a drawn bow, not a smile. While they are intelligent, they are so in a different way than Man, being an entirely different creature. Their intelligence is feral and cold, not unlike a wolf. They do not build beautiful cities in the trees, resplendant with warm light and peace, but live as nomads within the endless expanse of trees, hunting and gathering. But that is not to say they are simple barbarians, as they have excelled in all arts that do not require permenancy: song and oral tradition runs strong, and Elven myths seem to have no number as to the ways they can be told. Their language is rich and nuanced, and while rarely written, it has a beautiful, tangles script. They are excellent hand-weavers, but shun heavy looms. As far as iron and metal work goes, they only carry small forges, just big enough to work arrow- and spearheads - swords and metal armor are unknwon amongst most Elves. A certain tradition of rustic-alchemy also runs strong in their culture, using the mryiad plants, fungi, animals, florals, and other things that are available in the forest.

I've created a low magic fantasy setting, Shatterworld. Basically, if you removed all the magic and monsters from the setting, 99% of the population would never notice. They've never seen a spell cast, and never met a dwarf, elf, gnome or halfling. They've never seen a dragon or giant. Odds are they've seen a gryphon more then several times per year, and perhaps a wyvern or worm a few times in their lifetime.

The problem with making a race "alien", is that once it becomes available as a PC race, that is nearly impossible to do. It just becomes another guy with pointy ears who is really good with a particular weapon. Sort of like the Star Trek TNG alien of the week.

To keep non-humans "alien" feeling, my campaign is designed to be played by human PCs only.

http://shatterworldrpg.blogspot.com/

EDIT

Now that we've been talking about d20, I've been getting nostalgic and want to see if this can get rolling again. I'll spare you all and not rewrite the whole idea, but I think a quick list will do.

1. Building a believable, intelligent, and interesting setting around the basic premises of 3/3.5 DnD. In my mind, it is a clean, somewhat sparse, melancholic, dark aesthetic set in a classic Medieval setting.

2. To use the stock information - races, classes, spells - as much as possible without trying to change them too much. The re-naming of classes and spells, however, will definitely happen.

3. Find a good balance between making the races believable and sticking to the canon material.

4. Focus, for now, on a single kingdom, which also means not using everything in the books from the get go, player races included.  While there may be the rare, lone elf or band of elves, they have no permanent home in the immediate area. Maybe dwarves could be the primary non-human race.

I'm also on the fence whether to have setting be more in the North, with all that comes with that, or the South, with all that comes with that.

EDIT: Also, like I mentioned before, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here - I just want to make a really nice wheel. :)

Alright, here's a quick seat-of-the-pants thing for the immediate setting kingdom in the most D&D way - The Stat Block!


[ic=Tessere]
Titles: The Realm-Between-Rivers, The Red Kingdom
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Capital: [Capital City]
Ruler: The Red King Arreme Pyran Myrathir III
Government: Monarchy
Natives: Tessene
Adjective: Tessene
Languages: Common
Religions: The Seven, The Red Sword Cult, The Wight-King Cult (Forbidden)

History: Founded sometime around 200 years (202-EE, EE standing for Eastern Era. The current year is 1114-EE) after the coming of Man from across the Western Sea, the land of Tessere existed only as a backwater vassal to the First Kingdom for most of its 900-odd year life. Despite being the southernmost kingdom of Man and spared from the most brutal fighting, Tessere too was forged by the great Elven Wars between the newly arrived Humans and the native Elves that raged in different forms and lands from 0-EE until 712-EE.

Once peace fell between Man and Elf, the First Kingdom, without enemies to fight soon fell, and from the corpse of that vast realm emerged dozens of smaller successor kingdoms, Tessere included. Urrem Pyran Myrathir, a distant relation to the royal family of the First Kingdom and famed general during the Elven Wars, proclaimed himself the Red King of Tessere in 714-EE. The Myrathir family has ruled ever since.

Since the founding of the kingdom 399 years ago - there is great anticipation for the 400th anniversary of the founding of Tessere - there have been years of peace and years of war - in it's early years, Tessere was renowned for its wealth and the might and wisdom of it's arcane college - the Issereal.  Three bloody civil wars - The Magpie Wars (802-EE to 823-EE) the Bastard's Rebellion (846-EE) and the Corsair Wars (901-EE to 943-EE) - all weakened the land, and the Wight-King War nearly brought Tessere to its knees in 984-EE.

Now, the kingdom is at peace. The vassals of the Crown are seemingly loyal. There is great excitement for the 400th year since the founding of Tessere, as great festivals are planned across the realm, and the current king, Arreme Pyran Myrathir III, although old and said to be in failing health, is universally regarded as a wise and just ruler.

But, as always, there are rumors. The Issereal are not as benevolent, nor unified, as they seem. There are whispers of possible rebellion once the current Red King passes, as the heir to the throne is a mere shadow of his father. And the clergy of the Seven seem to be nervous about rumors of the return of the Wight-King, an enemy they claimed to have killed more than a century ago...

Geography
Tessere is the southermost of the successor kingdoms that came from the fall of the First Kingdom. To the north and east, it is bordered by the Minas Fer and the Minas Or mountains, respectively. To the south and the west sits the Western Sea.

Most of Tessere is composed of grassy, rolling hills, punctuated by small but dense forests and marshlands. To the north and east it is substantially rougher, as can be expected in the foothills of mountains. Two great rivers cut through the realm, the Herren, flowing south from the Minar Fer, only to turn west towards the sea, and the Nosere, flowing west from the Minas Or. The heart of Tessere is located in the western lands between the two rivers, giving rise to one of its nicknames - the Realm-Between-Rivers.

To the west sit the Pillared Isles, a chain of islands infamous for its pirates and corsairs, especially since the Corsair War two centuries past.

In Tessere, summers are long, dry and warm and winters are short, cool, and wet. Frost is rare, but so is extreme heat, as winds from the Western Sea keep the climate fairly moderate all year.

To the North, past the Minas Fer, are the Twin Kingdoms of Ossiad and Marn. While today the Twin Kingdoms and Tessere and on friendly, if somewhat cool terms, the nations fought each other in the Herren Wars of 1066-EE as Tessere came to the aid of invaded Herrenhold.

Religion
Like most of the successor kingdoms, the primary faith in Tessere is the Temple of the Seven. The Seven are gods as old as mankind itself, brought from across the Western Sea more than a thousand years ago. Yet over the years, as humans spread across the land, each kingdom, hold, and realm began to develop its own unique way to worship of the Seven. While the Seven Gods are the same in every land, their importance, portfolios, and popularity are not.

Within Tessere, the three most popular of the Seven are the Mother, the Maiden, and the Crone. The remaining four - the Seer, the Warrior, the Wanderer, and the Watcher - are still worshiped, but do not claim many faithful. The Red Sword Cult - an ancient Tessene cult that worships a great warrior-hero of the Elven Wars - includes those who would normally worship the Warrior and the Watcher, and the forbidden Wight-King Cult takes those of a darker nature who may normally follow the Seer or the Wanderer.

Government
The Red Kingdom of Tessere is actually a union of several somewhat independent realms. The core of the Kingdom is obviously Tessere, which properly refers to the land between the Herren and Nosere Rivers, has always been the most populous, powerful, and wealthy of all the southern lands. But outside the Realm-Between-Rivers exist three other fiefdoms that owe allegiance to Tessere - the wooded realm of Iranisse to the east and the mountain keeps of Herrenhold and the grasslands of Gallese to the north.

The rule of Tessere has not always been accepted, and since the founding of the kingdom, at least three major civil wars have erupted, often caused by at least one of the three lesser realms proclaiming independence.

Magic
Magic and its study are strictly watched and regulated by the Issereal, who, in practice, owe allegiance to the Red King of Tessere. The policies of the Issereal have swung between acceptance and condemnation towards magic-users who do not belong to the order. Currently, the Issereal are none to friendly towards what they see as "rogue arcanists", and there are plenty of rumors of various hedge-wizards and folk-healers who have gone "missing".

The Issereal, officially the Arcane Order of the College of the Issereal, is based in [Capital City]. It is a fairly prestigious order, with most of its initiates being hand picked by the order itself. As an organization, it is very conservative, and prefers to look to the past instead of the future. It views strange and novel ideas about magic as near-heretical.

Those magic-users who exist outside the Issereal are often recluses, hiding from potential witch-hunts or seeking privacy in their often unsound magic practices. While there are rumors from the North of a type of wizard called a "sorcerer" who can wield magic as one wields his voice, there seem to be no bloodlines in the lands Tessere that are blessed, or cursed, with that innate ability. The magic of Tessere is one of study, ritual, and practice.

Seems like a fun project. Typical D&D, where your expectations are generally right. Something nice and comforting, easy to get into. I'll definitely keep an I on how this grows from here out.

Quote from: Xeviat
Seems like a fun project. Typical D&D, where your expectations are generally right. Something nice and comforting, easy to get into. I'll definitely keep an I on how this grows from here out.

Nice and comforting is the goal. Like a well-made meatloaf.

I dub this the meatloaf setting. :P

Seriously, though, I like what I'm seeing. Very classic without being "Yawn, seen this before." Looking forward to watching it develop further!

An Ever-So-Brief History Just to Get Things Going (Really, it's not that long - don't run away!)

This setting, thus far, has turned out to be very Human-centric. While the other Races, Elves in particular, are important in the history and development of the world, they still take a back seat (for now). This quick historical blurb is written from the viewpoint of Humans, particularly the Humans that came from the West 1,114 years ago, made war with the Elves, and emerged victorious.

[note=The Humans]The Humans that came from the West are not the only Humans in the whole world, there are plenty of rumors, some truer than others, of strange, fantastic lands across the seas - but this should not be read as Magic Asia and Magic Africa. That being said, I am sure I will never get around to fleshing out these places. Ever.[/note]
The basic premise begins with the Humans fleeing from the West after losing a prolonged war against the Dragons. They left in a great fleet, as their Old Empire was literally burning around them. At last, they came across the Western Sea and found a seemingly empty but lush land.

After the majority of the Human refugees - some of the ships were blown off course or sunk during the voyage - founded what was to be known as the First Kingdom, they soon came into contact with the Elves, who were none too happy to see a barbaric, seemingly uncouth people inhabit lands they just fought so hard for. Ergo, the Elven Wars soon began.

[note=The Dwarves]Prior to the arrival of the Humans, the Dwarves and Elves fought their own terrible, bloody war, with the Elves barely emerging victorious and the Dwarves being driven far into their northernmost citadels. This, I hope, explains why the disparate and battle-weary Humans were in turn able to defeat the much more advanced Elves on their own turf.[/note]
Despite the Elves knowledge of the land and more advanced civilization, the Humans proved to be too prolific, tenacious, and ingenious to drive back into the sea. The Dwarves, from their snowy mountain holds also helped the Humans in the forms of weapons and knowledge, further tipping the balance.

After more than 700 years of varying states of war, a great truce was made between the Elves and Humans - the Elves were to retreat over the [Named Mountains] that ran just east of the coast to their vast forest realm of Sidherrealliar and the Humans were to stay on their side of the [Named Mountains] - I realize a map would be useful about now.

[note=The Little Folk]In addition to Elves, Humans, and Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes also exist in the setting world and are known as the Little Folk. The Great Kin - Elves, Humans, and Dwarves - rarely pay attention to the Little Folk, and they are largely absent from history. The Halflings are nomadic travelers, traders, and thieves and the Gnomes are forest recluses who use their natural skill in illusion and knowledge of the wilderness to remain more or less un-findable. In fact, most of the Great Kin probably wouldn't be able to tell Halflings and Gnomes apart from each other if they had to.[/note]
After that, the history of the last 400 years takes a much more Human-centric focus, with only the occasional skirmish between Elves and Humans breaking the otherwise stable peace.

In addition to other things, I hope this history gives:

• A decent explanation to why things are the way they are.
• Adventure hooks in the forms of ancient Dwarven citadels, old Human castles, and archaic Elven fortresses
• Possible future conflict between these formerly warring Races.
• The slight, but terrible, chance that the Dragons may come from the West and finish what they started...

Interesting stuff, and I'll do a line-by-line inquisitive review tomorrow, but I do have one immediate question: it sounds like you're going for monocultural races. Is that a design decision, or is it just that On This Continent races are monocultural, but elsewhere in the world you see a greater variation in cultures for races? (Props, btw, for not making humans the exception to the monocultural rume as far as I can tell - monoculture bothers me much, much less in a setting where humans are the exception, and every other race is monocultural.)

Quote from: Xathan Back Again
Interesting stuff, and I'll do a line-by-line inquisitive review tomorrow, but I do have one immediate question: it sounds like you're going for monocultural races. Is that a design decision, or is it just that On This Continent races are monocultural, but elsewhere in the world you see a greater variation in cultures for races? (Props, btw, for not making humans the exception to the monocultural rume as far as I can tell - monoculture bothers me much, much less in a setting where humans are the exception, and every other race is monocultural.)

[note]However, during the Elven Wars and the wars between the Dwarves and Elves even earlier, I suppose that the cultures were much more homogeneous than they are now. Foreign enemies would cause a Race to unite, despite the difference within said Race. But once the Elven Wars were over, the conflicts within each race were directed inward instead of outward.[/note]
As for the monocultures - yes and no.

Will there be sub-races amongst the non-Human races? Probably not.

But will there be different factions, kingdoms, organizations, and religions within each? Most definitely. The Dwarves are divided into family clans and often fight amongst each other over centuries-old insults and transgressions while the Elves are also divided into various tribes, each trying to sway the High King. And Humans are not a monoculture either, it's just that the setting focuses on one of many Human kingdoms, which may make it seem like they are.

However, at the moment this is a Human-centric setting, and to most Humans in the setting, the Elves, Dwarves, and Little Folk seem to have a monoculture, even if in fact they really do not.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
However, during the Elven Wars and the wars between the Dwarves and Elves even earlier, I suppose that the cultures were much more homogeneous than they are now. Foreign enemies would cause a Race to unite, despite the difference within said Race. But once the Elven Wars were over, the conflicts within each race were directed inward instead of outward.

That makes sense - you can probably draw historical analogies to prove that this would happen. Glad to hear that's mostly in the past, though. :)

QuoteAs for the monocultures - yes and no.

Will there be sub-races amongst the non-Human races? Probably not.

As much as I love sub-races (which is far too much), I'm glad to hear that - unless they serve a purpose, they tend to provide only clutter.

QuoteBut will there be different factions, kingdoms, organizations, and religions within each? Most definitely. The Dwarves are divided into family clans and often fight amongst each other over centuries-old insults and transgressions while the Elves are also divided into various tribes, each trying to sway the High King. And Humans are not a monoculture either, it's just that the setting focuses on one of many Human kingdoms, which may make it seem like they are.

I love this, and would love to see more of it. I kind of figured part of it was that you were focusing on an isolated area at first, but having confirmation of that is nice. :)

QuoteHowever, at the moment this is a Human-centric setting, and to most Humans in the setting, the Elves, Dwarves, and Little Folk seem to have a monoculture, even if in fact they really do not.

Hah, so Humans are a bit racist. I'm a fan of that. :P

All in all, still loving this setting - it's warm and comfortable but still good, earning its name, and unlike some d20 settings (including mine) it doesn't try to be a kitchen sink. In other words: I like, want more. :D

Quote from: Xathan Back Again

QuoteHowever, at the moment this is a Human-centric setting, and to most Humans in the setting, the Elves, Dwarves, and Little Folk seem to have a monoculture, even if in fact they really do not.

Hah, so Humans are a bit racist. I'm a fan of that. :P

Haha, racist - once again, yes and no.

This isn't going to be a Forgotten Realms-esque setting where the great cities are multi-cultural and all the key races get along well and can meet at a tavern and throw down a few mugs of ale.

What I have in mind is that they so-called Great Kin (Elves, Dwarves, and Humans) each, for the most part, keep to their own respective kingdoms and lands, maybe trading occasionally, but for the most part, Races really don't understand each othe much. Humans might think that all Dwarves, men and women, have beards (they don't), Dwarves might think that Elves are immortal (they're not), and Elves might think that Humans only live for 20 or so years before they die (they don't).

As for the Little Kin (Halflings and Gnomes), they obviously have their own unique cultures and histories, but for the most part, the Great Kin really don't care too much about them, regardless of their capabilities.

As for the Half-Orcs and Half-Elves I'm still on the fence. Half-Elves are pretty obvious, but I think they're going to be very rare and very much outsiders. Orcs exist, but I'm not sure where yet. Maybe there could be rumors of a "violent, strange-colored people coming from the South."

And as always, thanks for the comments dude!

Quick question: are player groups going to be able to be multi-racial? Having the races be largely independent does mean multi-racial groups would have very interesting consequences and possible hurdles to overcome. I like that notion, and it does feel very medieval. In England, a Frenchman would stand out like a sore thumb, after all. Heck, even today, I work at Disneyland and you can tell the difference between a Southern Californian on their 80th trip to the park and a Japanese tourist on their 1st trip. As I'm apt to do, I'm thinking of stealing this, as it does strengthen that medieval feel.

Quote from: Xeviat
Quick question: are player groups going to be able to be multi-racial? Having the races be largely independent does mean multi-racial groups would have very interesting consequences and possible hurdles to overcome. I like that notion, and it does feel very medieval. In England, a Frenchman would stand out like a sore thumb, after all. Heck, even today, I work at Disneyland and you can tell the difference between a Southern Californian on their 80th trip to the park and a Japanese tourist on their 1st trip. As I'm apt to do, I'm thinking of stealing this, as it does strengthen that medieval feel.

I think adventuring parties will be the exception to the rule. Adventurers are already unique within society, even their own respective societies, so having multi-cultural adventuring parties in a way makes more sense than not.

And I like the Frenchman analogy, that hits the mark. I had a mental image of a Dwarven mule train coming into to town for their yearly trade and it being a very, very big deal. All the kids get to see the funny Bearded Folk!

EDIT: I'm fairly content with the way that races panned out, but now I should probably start thinking about how to make the Classes of D&D work with this setting. Suggestions?

EDIT EDIT: And by Classes, I'm referring to Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin, and Cleric, the five that make the most sense in the area I'm currently imagining. Prestige Classes are also a go, but tailored, once again, to the immediate area of the setting.

One thing that would feel very classic, but also not be confining, is if you made different magical traditions the "property" of different races. If elves train wizards, dwarves train druids, and humans train clerics (all for instances), but any race can be them when it comes to adventurers, you could spice things up. Go back to the 2E race/class lists maybe, or something like that.

I'll go dig through more of this thread, because I haven't digested it fully, and see what I can suggest. But based on what I have read, I think elves should very much not be clerics anymore, since they forsook them in the past.

Which classes were you hoping on going with? I'd recommend the 3EPHB set, but that's only because of my ever-growing fondness for them.

Quote from: Xeviat
One thing that would feel very classic, but also not be confining, is if you made different magical traditions the "property" of different races. If elves train wizards, dwarves train druids, and humans train clerics (all for instances), but any race can be them when it comes to adventurers, you could spice things up. Go back to the 2E race/class lists maybe, or something like that.

I'll go dig through more of this thread, because I haven't digested it fully, and see what I can suggest. But based on what I have read, I think elves should very much not be clerics anymore, since they forsook them in the past.

Which classes were you hoping on going with? I'd recommend the 3EPHB set, but that's only because of my ever-growing fondness for them.

I was toying with that myself, but I think I may make the restrictions more along the lines of fluff than crunch. For instance, Dwarves can be Wizards, but it's going to need a good backstory.

As for Classes, I'm right with you on the 3E set. I edited an earlier post and mentioned I wanted to focus on Fighters, Wizards, Clerics, and Rogues for the immediate setting are, as, to me at least, Classes kind of bring with them "cultural prerequisites" - Sorcerers need a history with lots of strange bloodlines, Druids need a society or culture with a tradition of nature worship, etc. But, as I develop this area, I will be more than willing to fit in other Classes if they work. But, just like the Race-Class issue, a player can be anything anywhere as long as it makes sense.

Yeah, I wasn't saying to make it in the crunch, just that there are "no" dwarven wizards that aren't PCs or hugely big-deal npcs.

You could definitely go with just the core four. I only proponent the other 7 (actually, I like to sub out the sorcerer and port in psion and soulknife) because I like the culture they have in D&D. You can very much create your own cultural hybrid classes. Really, Bard, Paladin, and Ranger don't fit into every setting. Barbarian and Monk can just be specialist Fighters and Rogues. Not hard. What is hard is imagining a setting without Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard.

Quote from: Xeviat
Yeah, I wasn't saying to make it in the crunch, just that there are "no" dwarven wizards that aren't PCs or hugely big-deal npcs.

You could definitely go with just the core four. I only proponent the other 7 (actually, I like to sub out the sorcerer and port in psion and soulknife) because I like the culture they have in D&D. You can very much create your own cultural hybrid classes. Really, Bard, Paladin, and Ranger don't fit into every setting. Barbarian and Monk can just be specialist Fighters and Rogues. Not hard. What is hard is imagining a setting without Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard.

I was always a big fan of the original four too, but I think I'm going to leave the Core 3E Classes in, but in varying levels of presence. Monks are obviously rare to point of non-existant, but I can see Rangers and Paladins easily fitting in, depending on the culture, as well as Bards and Sorcerers to a lesser extent.

But I'm going to steer clear of the psychic Classes, as I think that will clash heavily with the quasi-realistic Medieval vibe I'm aiming for.

No problem; the psychic classes really have little place in traditional fantasy anyway; the psion steps on the wizards toes too.

However, I was debating about splitting the Arcane spell-list between Sorcerers and Wizards (on the other hand, as I've mentioned, I don't think Sorcerers are going to have a key role in the current area of the setting), giving the Sorcerer more artillery type spells and the Wizard more utilitarians. It always bothered me, more so than normal, that Sorcerers and Wizards, while both spellcasters, and who theoretically draw their power from entirely different sources, manage to cast the exact same spells. WotC even took some time to differentiate Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Paladins, and even Bards, but Wizards and Sorcerers - same exact spells!

It was because Sorcerers were an experiment. If you dig through Monte Cook's 3rd party books, he had an alternate Sorcerer spell list that might suit you more. But it was nice for sorcerers to be able to use wizard scrolls. Then again, just give them "use magic device" as a skill (if you're using 3E).

I'll have to look into that, Monte Cook's one of the best things that 3E had going for it.

But, as I said, I'm not sure that Sorcerers will be a factor in the current area (except, I just realized, Sorcerers could descend from some intermingling between Dragons and Humans long ago during the War in the West...)

So, for now, I think the primary Classes that are present in the current area will be the Fantastic Four (Fighter, Wizards, Rogue, Cleric) and maybe Bard and Paladins (involved solely with the Red Sword Cult [which I may rename, because it has an evil tone to it]).

As for Class backgrounds, I suppose characters could learn their skills from a.) an organization like the Issereal for Wizards, the [Thieves Guild] for Rogues, or the Temple of the Seven for Clerics or b.) learning from a single person, apprentice style. Fighters could have trained under an old curmudgeonly Fighter, or that a Wizard learned his craft from an old hermit Wizard in a hidden tower, etc. I think there needs to be an explanation to why the characters had the opportunity to earn such prestigious and rare Classes.

Quote from: Señor LeetzSo, for now, I think the primary Classes that are present in the current area will be the Fantastic Four (Fighter, Wizards, Rogue, Cleric) and maybe Bard and Paladins (involved solely with the Red Sword Cult [which I may rename, because it has an evil tone to it]). 

For the Red Sword Cult, I'd keep the cult name - it's cool to see that some people remember that cult doesn't mean "evil society" and just means "religious group, perhaps small or fringe." The Red is what makes it sound evil - I'd go with a color, but one that means blue/yellow/green/white - all four colors associated with calming or positive emotions.

On the other hand, keeping them called the Red Sword Cult and explaining why a group of holy warriors with a strict adherence to the very concept of good has such a sinister name would be some awesome flavor, so that would work too.

Quote from: Xathan Back Again

Quote from: Señor LeetzSo, for now, I think the primary Classes that are present in the current area will be the Fantastic Four (Fighter, Wizards, Rogue, Cleric) and maybe Bard and Paladins (involved solely with the Red Sword Cult [which I may rename, because it has an evil tone to it]).  

For the Red Sword Cult, I'd keep the cult name - it's cool to see that some people remember that cult doesn't mean "evil society" and just means "religious group, perhaps small or fringe." The Red is what makes it sound evil - I'd go with a color, but one that means blue/yellow/green/white - all four colors associated with calming or positive emotions.

On the other hand, keeping them called the Red Sword Cult and explaining why a group of holy warriors with a strict adherence to the very concept of good has such a sinister name would be some awesome flavor, so that would work too.

I got all the Red ideas from the fact that Tessere, the immediate area, is on a west-facing coast, so the dusk, and the red light that comes from a sun setting over an ocean, would be an important thing in Tessere - hence the name the Red Kingdom, Red King.

I suppose gold could work too - The Gold Sword Cult doesn't sound terrible, except Red Sword Cult rolls off the tongue better. Plus, Paladins decked out in brilliant red full plate would just look awesome, ala...

[spoiler](http://www.bethsoft.com/images/games/gamescrn_tribunal_02-B.jpg)[/spoiler]

SOLD. Do it. Because it's awesome.

well in that case...

[ic=The Red Sword Cult]In the light of dusk,
Red judgement rides,
A-tremble foes,
Thou shalt not hide,
From bow nor spear,
nor blade so bright,
A-tremble foes,
The Red Sword rides!


Forged in the bloody War of the Wight-King, the Red Sword Cult is an order of Paladins founded upon the ideals of a the Paladin Cyrre ni'Semme. While many myths abound of his deeds, it is universally held that he was the one who hunted and cast down the Wight-King, banishing the foul necromancer before he himself fell from wounds he received in the legendary duel. Afterwards, his body was carried back to the city of Tessere, where it is still intered today within the Crimson Keep, the citadel that would later become the headquarters of the Cult.  

The Paladins of the Red Sword Cult, the organization itself founded by Cyrre ni'Semmes former companions shortly after his death in 984-EE, are sworn to hunt down evil practicioners of magic, no matter the cost. While a nominally good and benevolent order, they at times have been accused of being too zealous in their persecution of evil magic-users, at times punishing those who were most likely innocent. Since their founding nearly one-hundred and fifty years ago, they have become a powerful player in the politics of Tessere, and there recently has been a growing hostility between the Cult and the Temple of the Seven, who, while approving of their goals, accuse the Cult of naivity and brashness, preaching patience while the Cult preaches action.

The sworn members of the Red Sword Cult are all Paladins, and, in addition to their deeds, are famed for their red armor and swords. While they ironically do not wield red swords themselves - however, the hilts, pommels, and handles of their swords are lacquered in red - each Paladin, upon becoming a sworn member of the Red Sword Cult, is given a set of red-lacquered full plate, decorated with motifs of the setting sun in gold filigree. [spoiler=The Armor of the Cult]Each set of red full plate given to recently sworn members is most commonly +1, SR 13 full plate. While extremely costly, the true number of sworn members is suprisingly low.[/spoiler] A Paladin of the Red Sword in his full glory is truely a sight to behold. Within the Crimson Keep itself, the Red Sword itself is kept guarded within the citadel, but, when the need calls, it is given to a Red Sword Paladin of superb standing to hunt down a particularly dangerous threat. The last recorded use of the Red Sword was by the Paladin Illyn sa'Merren - then just twenty-two years young - against the mad necromancer Urricanter in 1070-EE.

[spoiler=The Red Sword Stats]
The Red Sword (+3, holy, keen longsword)

The Red Sword appears, for the most part, to be a simple, but well-made longsword. However, even the most casual observer is quickly drawn to the color of its blade - a deep, warm red that seems to glow at dusk. The hilt and pommel, while originally said to be made of steel, have since been gilded, and the handle is wrapped with black leather. Normally, the Red Sword is kept in the central chamber, the Duskhall, under heavy guard, and is only permitted to leave the Crimson Keep in the most dire of circumstances.[/spoiler]

I love them. Love them, quite a bit. I want more details - who was Urricanter (other than a necromancer), and why he did deserve unleashing the Red Sword? What happened during the Wight War? How large scale was that conflict? And could a Red Sword Cultist be part of an adventuring group? Do they outsource when they need people with different talents?

Quote from: Xathan Back Again
I love them. Love them, quite a bit. I want more details - who was Urricanter (other than a necromancer), and why he did deserve unleashing the Red Sword? What happened during the Wight War? How large scale was that conflict? And could a Red Sword Cultist be part of an adventuring group? Do they outsource when they need people with different talents?

I don't want to spoil some plots I have in my head, but Urricanter was a necromance that came ever-so-close to raising the Wight-King himself.

The War of the Wight-King is really not that fleshed out, I just thought it sounded cool as I thought of past conflicts within Tessere. He was most likely a lich, raised an undead army, corrupted the King of Tessere, all that jazz. The Wight-King War most likely never escalated to a huge conflict, as Cyrre ni'Semmes defeated him before he could implement the really nasty parts of his plan. But there was still fighting, but on small scale, and were most likely massacres of the living by the undead and royal court assassinations and murders.

A Red Sword Paladin could most definitely be part of an adventuring party, and the Cult itself could most definitely seek assistance when it was needed.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
The War of the Wight-King is really not that fleshed out, I just thought it sounded cool as I thought of past conflicts within Tessere. He was most likely a lich, raised an undead army, corrupted the King of Tessere, all that jazz. The Wight-King War most likely never escalated to a huge conflict, as Cyrre ni'Semmes defeated him before he could implement the really nasty parts of his plan. But there was still fighting, but on small scale, and were most likely massacres of the living by the undead and royal court assassinations and murders.

I love little details like that - really makes a setting feel alive. Are you going to weave that into other organizations histories, or is this a conflict that's unique to the Red Sword Cult?

Yes and no. It a was fairly definitive event in the history of Tessere, but not especially unique to the Red Sword Cult. The Wight-King War in general though, effected the entire kingdom, maybe even neighboring realms.

EDIT: Holy crap, the first post of this was 95% grammatical errors.

How much should I connect the fluff with Classes? As an example, should Wizards all be descendants of earlier mage clans that came from the West, or is that going too far and restricting things?

Well, is the talent of a Wizard inborn? If it's just a scholarly tradition, it could come from one spring, but I don't see why it wouldn't then spread. Try as a group might, information is going to get out, Wizards are going to go rogue and train their own apprentices, and someone could even stumble upon the techniques blindly during their own study.

Since you are doing a small area, having the races be more monocultural than many settings, I think having monocultural classes would also make sense. All paladins stem from the Red Sword Cult ruled by humans (don't know if they are, just using your words here), all bards can trace their origins back to a wanderer from a bygone age whose writings formed the basis of a college, and all rangers follow the traditions of elven patriots who remained behind to fight off the encroaching humans.

Having both race and class matter culturally would be very cool. I've always liked having D&D classes stand out as more than just a collection of abilities. I never liked guiding someone to one class purely because of it's mechanics; I found the best characters were drawn to the class that embodied what they were, and the mechanics followed.

Quote from: Xeviat
Well, is the talent of a Wizard inborn? If it's just a scholarly tradition, it could come from one spring, but I don't see why it wouldn't then spread. Try as a group might, information is going to get out, Wizards are going to go rogue and train their own apprentices, and someone could even stumble upon the techniques blindly during their own study.

Since you are doing a small area, having the races be more monocultural than many settings, I think having monocultural classes would also make sense. All paladins stem from the Red Sword Cult ruled by humans (don't know if they are, just using your words here), all bards can trace their origins back to a wanderer from a bygone age whose writings formed the basis of a college, and all rangers follow the traditions of elven patriots who remained behind to fight off the encroaching humans.

Having both race and class matter culturally would be very cool. I've always liked having D&D classes stand out as more than just a collection of abilities. I never liked guiding someone to one class purely because of it's mechanics; I found the best characters were drawn to the class that embodied what they were, and the mechanics followed.

No, Wizards become so through study. However, the catch is that the number of people who actually know magic well enough to teach it are few, and most likely don't want to teach even if they can. The second catch is that scrolls and arcane texts are rare, so the idea that Level 1 Jimmy can start out as a Wizard, even though he grew up on a farm, is right out of the question.

As for other classes, I think you're right, considering that it's such a relatively small campaign area, if the Classes are more closely tied to the fluff than normal.

However, I think I'm going to tweak some things. I think I'm going to push the Elven Wars back into the past a couple more centuries, as I feel that having the Humans settle the Eastern Realms only 1,000 years ago is too soon to get some of the depth I want. I also think that I'm going to bring the setting up towards a more temperate, cool realm, so that I can have winter and pull more "classic" elements into the area like trolls and giants, who I don't think fit that well in the south. Plus, if I'm going for the "Meatloaf" feel, I think I should stick to the Western European/England feel that classic D&D had.

Here's a thought pertaining to the uniqueness of adventurers as well as some of the other "inconsistencies" involved with the D&D setting.

-All the players are members of so-called "adventuring guilds" (they obviously wouldn't be called that, but that's what they do) where they have trained since childhood, either given to the guilds by their poor parents, found as orphans, or taken as payment for "quests". Different guilds could be famed for producing different Classes of adventurers, or combinations of them. That being said, there would not be many of these guilds at all, with each one consiting of only a few "parties" at any one time, so a dozen-odd members in each. The guilds would have a fairly dubious and dark reputation, as their prices are high and are usually only called upon the most dire circumstances (as mentioned, a small village being plagued by gnolls would not be able to afford the price in gold and silver, so they would pay with a child to be trained instead.)

I'm thinking that they would have been founded after the Elven Wars ended, some 1,400 years ago, which during that time, the "monsters" of the world thrived will the Great Kin warred with each other. For the most part, they did their job well, and most monsters keep to the fringes of the world, hidden in the deep corners of forests and mountains and ruins. There are less now then there were, and those that remain are mistrusted and maligned, until, of course, they are needed.

So even 1st Level adventurers are still well trained (It would make sense to have players start at maybe Level 2 or 3)and have decent equipment. I like the idea of the hardened adventurers riding into town to kick ass while being mistrusted and maligned by those who had to hire them.   

Pros of this idea: Explains how and why adventurers are so unique and why they can do things that normal people cannot - such as delve into an orc cave and emerged unscathed. Gives a darker feel to the setting and to adventurers and takes away the happy-go-lucky questing. Possible conflicts between and withing the adventuring guilds.

Cons of this idea: It obviously takes away from the pure D&D feeling and makes for an awkward situation with good-aligned adventurers.

well, mercenary bands/guild are of great historical notice.  If you are going along the idea that the campaign seting is dark and dangerous enough that said adventuring/dirty-job guilds exist, they would alos be of great military value, so if that is the sort of tone, then I could see it.

They could possibly sell themselves out to petty kings and lords, but I think their strengths lies in the "special operations" realm of slaying monsters. They could also put themselves above the conflicts of men, or maybe many guilds have already become to involved, and through one manner or another, become obsolete, leaving only a few left.

I think the guilds would be strong enough to be able to venture into an ancient temple and slay a rogue dragon, but I don't see them being able to withstand a siege of 5,000 men-at-arms because they supported the wrong king or prince.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
Here's a thought pertaining to the uniqueness of adventurers as well as some of the other "inconsistencies" involved with the D&D setting.

-All the players are members of so-called "adventuring guilds" (they obviously wouldn't be called that, but that's what they do) where they have trained since childhood, either given to the guilds by their poor parents, found as orphans, or taken as payment for "quests". Different guilds could be famed for producing different Classes of adventurers, or combinations of them. That being said, there would not be many of these guilds at all, with each one consiting of only a few "parties" at any one time, so a dozen-odd members in each. The guilds would have a fairly dubious and dark reputation, as their prices are high and are usually only called upon the most dire circumstances (as mentioned, a small village being plagued by gnolls would not be able to afford the price in gold and silver, so they would pay with a child to be trained instead.)

I'm thinking that they would have been founded after the Elven Wars ended, some 1,400 years ago, which during that time, the "monsters" of the world thrived will the Great Kin warred with each other. For the most part, they did their job well, and most monsters keep to the fringes of the world, hidden in the deep corners of forests and mountains and ruins. There are less now then there were, and those that remain are mistrusted and maligned, until, of course, they are needed.
[SNIP]
Cons of this idea: It obviously takes away from the pure D&D feeling and makes for an awkward situation with good-aligned adventurers.

First of all, if you haven't read the Gentleman Bastard series, I'd give the two books a look over for something similar (although it's about con-men, not adventurers) that might spark inspiration.

Second of all, I love this idea - gives it a darker edge, as you said, and really, all your pros add up to a nice element and realistic adventurers. I might (will likely) steal this for Boundless.

As for good aligned characters, being part of a marginalized fringe group that is grudgingly needed at times in no way detracts from your ability to be a good person or righteous or all that. For example: a guild that trains adventurers but instead of a completely mercenary attitude, operates based on funds received from dealing with various threats, perhaps at some point in their history taking down a dangerous dragon with a massive horde that was well invested. Basically, a guild that operates under a slightly more mercenary attitude than the X-Men, but the basic principal applies. For good ones, I'd cut out the "child as payment" option, unless they restrict themselves to orphans.

I dunno, I'm really digging the dark, realistic vibe this has. I've always been on the fence about alignment, so I may just ax it in totality. I like that visceral, dangerous, violent Medieval feel where everyone is out for themselves.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
I dunno, I'm really digging the dark, realistic vibe this has. I've always been on the fence about alignment, so I may just ax it in totality. I like that visceral, dangerous, violent Medieval feel where everyone is out for themselves.

90% of homebrews back here in the day where d20 was the norm here axed alignment, and I'm probably doing the same in Boundless. Or you could operate under an alternate alignment system: Instead of Good-Evil and Law-Chaos, maybe Altruism-Ruthless and Obedient-Rebellious.

Hmmmm, now that you mention that, I think that the Reputation variant would work amazing. Or the Honor mechanic.

EDIT: Except, what to do with the Cleric class if the PCs come from these adventuring guilds? Remake Cleric into a Healer? I'm getting farther away from pure D&D, but I'm strangely OK with it.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
I dunno, I'm really digging the dark, realistic vibe this has. I've always been on the fence about alignment, so I may just ax it in totality. I like that visceral, dangerous, violent Medieval feel where everyone is out for themselves.

ALIGNMENT...
is a setting specific thing.  Makes some games better, some games worse.  Mine it made worse.

Either of those variants would be great ways to handle it, and always feel much better than alignment. I'd go with Reputation, personally, since honor has a very Eastern feel (to me).

Reputation would work better. I also like the idea of the players having a homebase, where they can lay low between adventures, perhaps receive training from the few veterans that survived to old age, and to make items (not buy new things, that's a bit too computer-gamey). Plus, the guild has great potential for conflict and campaign story.

I'm also leaning towards a vaguely Germanic (Holy Roman Empire, to be more exact) setting, relateable to the 14th century, but with no gun-powder.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
Reputation would work better. I also like the idea of the players having a homebase, where they can lay low between adventures, perhaps receive training from the few veterans that survived to old age, and to make items (not buy new things, that's a bit too computer-gamey). Plus, the guild has great potential for conflict and campaign story.

Also, the guildhouse helps explain why they run around in dungeons and end up better at bluffing - they train there between adventures and all that - and allows for them to gain equipment from fighting wolves or outsiders or vermin or any creatures that wouldn't have treasure on them. All around, this is a great idea, and hope you don't mind me modifying it and stealing it for boundless.

No not at all, I think the settings are drastically different enough it won't even seem the same.

But I'm not sure about them gaining new, especially better, equipment. If there is a suit of +5 platemail at the citadel, there is no real reason why it wouldn't be given to an adventurer later rather than sooner (as they would want to keep their adventurers as well armed as possible, as they are expensive and rare.)

But as far as making potions, scrolls, or upgrading armor on their own, that would be awesome to have alchemy labs and forges.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
But I'm not sure about them gaining new, especially better, equipment. If there is a suit of +5 platemail at the citadel, there is no real reason why it wouldn't be given to an adventurer later rather than sooner (as they would want to keep their adventurers as well armed as possible, as they are expensive and rare.)

Thanks for the permission!

And one thing around that little problem - the suit of +5 platemail wasn't lying around the citadel, it was recently acquired by another group of adventurers on a different job who didn't have a need for it - either they already have better gear or none of them use plate. So, instead of selling it, it's given back to the guild and reassigned to someone else - in this case, the party. Which also allows for some interesting NPC interactions - "Hey, heard you were on the Litch of Hallith job. If you get his staff for me, I'll make sure it's worth your time."

I'm not sure, I think that coming to and from the citadel with leveled gear waiting for you is very video-gamey. I think it takes away from the realness and visceral nature of the world.

Also, the players maybe the only adventurers left within their guild, as they are not as needed now since they have done such a good job of killing their jobs. I like the visual of a massive, unkept, crumbling citadel, a dark reminder of darker days, full of empty halls and baracks, with the players only inhabiting the inner-most keep.

EDIT: Another cool approach would be to have the world at the cusp of it's own emergence from a long and dreary dark age (akin to the 14th century) when people are beginning to forget about the monsters and creatures of earlier centuries, seemingly diminishing the need for adventurers despite the fact that monsters still do exist: undead plague certain graveyards, trolls and gnolls lurk in the darker forests, dragons bide their time in remote caverns, and kobolds and goblins plague the sewers and underlevels of the greater cities. I think it would be cool to go with a dark fairy tale vibe.

The guilds aren't a bad idea. Admittedly I am having more trouble getting into the mindset of this setting than Arga, but it seems reasonable and definitely a plausible explanation for where adventurers come from! I especially love the whole monastery-like deal of fostering small children. Do they accept girls? Would noble families consider sending their children there to cull the number of heirs? Do they have special rights and/or lack of the same?
Didn't somebody here on the boards mess around with a "Slayer" setting? Reminds me of that.
What it really reminds me of, though, is the the eponymous character of the Witcher who was also bred and raised with the help of preternatural means to hunt and kill monsters.

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
The guilds aren't a bad idea. Admittedly I am having more trouble getting into the mindset of this setting than Arga, but it seems reasonable and definitely a plausible explanation for where adventurers come from! I especially love the whole monastery-like deal of fostering small children. Do they accept girls? Would noble families consider sending their children there to cull the number of heirs? Do they have special rights and/or lack of the same?
Didn't somebody here on the boards mess around with a "Slayer" setting? Reminds me of that.
What it really reminds me of, though, is the the eponymous character of the Witcher who was also bred and raised with the help of preternatural means to hunt and kill monsters.

Thanks, I thought it was a reasonable way to have bad-ass adventurers make sense in the world. Girls would be accepted, as woman could have much easier access to certain places and things than a man could. But I don't think that nobles would give children away, as the Guilds are mostly maligned and looked down upon, so I think it would be taboo to willingly give your child to the Guilds - poor folk, on the other hand, often don't have much say in the matter.
claym
As for the Witcher, I'll admit it was an influence, but I've never played it, so I'm only aware of the main idea behind it.

EDIT: I think that a dark, Brothers Grimm faerie tale-style setting in a cruel, harsh world would be cool. Put the modernity level to around the 14th or 15th century and give the monsters a slightly scientific twist/history - I keep thinking about how they handled tooth faeries in Hellboy 2 - and have the players be these elite but maligned "monster hunters", but obviously develop the story line beyond just hash-n-slash adventuring.

Plus, it would be fun using all those strange and semi-forgotten weapons of the late Medieval age like side-swords, cinquedas, baselards, flamberges, backswords, arming swords, pikes, swordstaffs, arbalests, bills, horseman's picks, voulgiers, and warhammers (that aren't giant and Dwarven)

QuotePlus, it would be fun using all those strange and semi-forgotten weapons of the late Medieval age like side-swords, cinquedas, baselards, flamberges, backswords, arming swords, pikes, swordstaffs, arbalests, bills, horseman's picks, voulgiers, and warhammers (that aren't giant and Dwarven)

My overall opinion of the idea is "Awesome," and I don't have much to add beyond that right now. :P

I just want to say if you want help on the stats for some of these weapons (which could be really interested) I'd be happy to help, and I'd love to see them implemented more widespread than in normal fantasy/history.

Quote from: Xathan Back Again

QuotePlus, it would be fun using all those strange and semi-forgotten weapons of the late Medieval age like side-swords, cinquedas, baselards, flamberges, backswords, arming swords, pikes, swordstaffs, arbalests, bills, horseman's picks, voulgiers, and warhammers (that aren't giant and Dwarven)

My overall opinion of the idea is "Awesome," and I don't have much to add beyond that right now. :P

I just want to say if you want help on the stats for some of these weapons (which could be really interested) I'd be happy to help, and I'd love to see them implemented more widespread than in normal fantasy/history.

Why thank you sir! The more I think about it, the more the idea of a Grimm Brothers-esque, Late Medieval period game seems cool. It would be really interesting and fun to try to get combat to mimic how it was then.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
Why thank you sir! The more I think about it, the more the idea of a Grimm Brothers-esque, Late Medieval period game seems cool. It would be really interesting and fun to try to get combat to mimic how it was then.

I just posted an idea for a new system I'm working on that might suit your needs for that well. :P

Now I just have think of a cool name for this setting: Grimmwraith? Grindlerath?

I also have to think of a good name for the adventurers: Harbingers? Doom-dealers? Mercykillers?

Quote from: Señor Leetz
Grindlerath

Harbingers

I love both of these so much.

Yeah, I like Grindelrath (a little letter switch.)

I was also thinking of having Writs, which would be a kind of official sanction from the powers-at-large for walking around with a load of wands, traps, magic arms and armor, and being able to slay things in addition to a bunch of other dangerous things that the local king or baron probably doesn't want (like 00 agents).

The only thinkg I'm worried about is that this gets "gamey", where it starts to feel like something you'd play on PS3. Would some fluff help?

Writ's are a good idea - or if they're part of one group, it could be a liscence, kind of what priviate investigators have in the real world, or permits, something like what we use for weapons IRL as well. I'd advocate the former, since it leads to interesting plots - what if the players are assigned to go "take care of" a group of unliscenced adventurers.

Fluff would help, but I really wouldn't worry about it feeling gamey. That's like saying a setting feels "Booky" because it's like something you'd read in a book, or "cinematic" because it feels like something you'd see in a movie, or "Comicy" because it's something you'd see in a comic - and none of those are bad thing. With the way video games have evolved, you've got a ton of great stories and ideas and concepts that translate excellently and seamlessly into tabletop games - especially since a ton of the ideas were originally stolen from tabletop games or novels that tabletop games also steal from. Unless it feeling "gamey" bothers you, don't sweat it - a good setting will stand on its own merid, and it doesn't matter if it's gamey or not. /Rant

Working on one setting always gives me inspiration for another, and since I've been patching together an Arga once shot, I've kept going back to the 'Meatloaf' setting. Maybe its winter, maybe not, but in the cold months I always seem to think and ponder more 'classical' DnD style settings. So, in the last couple days, I've tried to go through the seven DnD 3e races and, hopefully, make them interesting without deviating too much. I've come up with cultural names in addition to the human names of each race, and I'm frankly pretty happy with them (except for humans, which I still need to think of something). Anyhow:

Elves - Eylyf
Dwarves - Mzurth-Dura
Halflings - Nold
Gnomes - Nurn
Half-Ocrs - Orchim
Hal-Elves - Yl-Eylyf (in the Eylyf tongue, Half-Elf in Man's tongue.)

I also wrote a quick block on the gnomes, arguable the most 'goofy' race, in a more serious and mythic tone.

[ic=The Nurn (Gnomes)]A reclusive people if there ever was, the Nurn, also known as Gnomes in the realms of Man, are perhaps the greatest artificers of any of the Mortal Kin. While their works are not as prolific as those of the Dwarves or of men, Nurn-forged arms, armor, and items are without parallel. While it is often noted as strange that a people as peaceful as the Nurn are capable of creating such deft instruments of war, the gnomes care only about their craft, the process, and the quality of their creations. Many a weapon of legend was forged by the Gnomes, from the war-swords Ghilreth and Mherre wielded by Men during the War of the First Council to the silvery spear D'gwynn, traditionally held by the eldest prince of the Moth Kingdom Elves. A great number of tales recount the quest of an ancient king or prince of Men seeking out the Nurn to request the forging of some weapon or another.

Gnomes have little to do with the world of the Great Folk, rarely leaving their fortified, secluded valley-villages or "orms." They will occasionally trade with their fellow Little Folk, the halflings, but rarely deal with any other peoples. However, there are a handful of gnomes every generation that desire to know of the outside world in order to expand their knowledge and skill in a particular craft. In fact, if not for their workshops and forges, the Nurn would be little more than a side-note in history.  

The Nurn are similar in appearance to the Nold (Halflings), but are in fact completely unrelated. A Nurn-Nold couple is not capable of creating offspring.. They stand half the height of an average man and weigh but a third. They are fairly long-lived, passing lives equal to those of the Mzruth-Dura, around 300 years. Gnomes, unlike Halflings, prefer to grow beards, often braided and studded with precious gemstones and baubles of bronze and copper, while they in turn keep their heads clean shaven, even the women-folk. The language of the Nurn is almost never spoken amongst the Greater Kin, but does bear a striking resemblance to Mzurth-Dura, and the two mutually, if difficultly, intelligible. [/ic]

I love what you've done with the gnomes: I hate gnomes in 90% of settings, and not since Eberron's gnomish mafia have I been so interested in the race.

Why do they create weapons when so peaceful? Why do they seclude themselves? Are they preyed upon by more violent societies due to their minimal size and relative peacefulness?

Quote from: Xathan
I love what you've done with the gnomes: I hate gnomes in 90% of settings, and not since Eberron's gnomish mafia have I been so interested in the race.

Why do they create weapons when so peaceful? Why do they seclude themselves? Are they preyed upon by more violent societies due to their minimal size and relative peacefulness?

Yay feedback! Awesome!

And to answer your questions: the Nurn don't only make weapons, but that is what they are most famous for among the Great Folk. While they are not particularly war-like themselves, they have no compunction against creating things that could be used to violent ends for others - they care only about the process and perfection of a craft, be it swords or cups.

Their seclusion is the answer to the next question, they keep themselves secluded is deep valleys and dells in order to avoid being preyed upon. However, no one has ever had a real reason to attack the Nurn. Their weapons would be an obvious choice, but Nurn-forged arms and armor are so rare and take such a long time to forge that any enemy would find no stockpile of enchanted weapons, in fact, they would probably find nothing but very well made glass cups and trinkets. Most, if not all, of the mythic Nurn-forged weapons of old were requested by one hero or another, and so they rarely take it upon themselves to create magic weapons just for the sake of it as they are long lived, patient, and perhaps waiting for the one request that will propel them into legend.

Feedback is the fuel that keeps the creative gears turning. :P

Considering how well made everything Nurn is, is it worthwhile to raid one for those well made cups and trinkets, or not that valuable? Also, have any evil individuals deceived the Nurn into creating their powerful weapons for evil?

Quote from: Xathan
Considering how well made everything Nurn is, is it worthwhile to raid one for those well made cups and trinkets, or not that valuable? Also, have any evil individuals deceived the Nurn into creating their powerful weapons for evil?

I can't imagine it would be worth the trouble for a few cups.

As for the evil individual, one of things I would like to pursue in this setting is avoiding the Good vs. Evil conflict so pervasive in high fantasy and instead focus on more personal and political conflicts, somewhat like ASOIAF. But I have no reason to believe that the Nurn wouldn't forge a sword for someone of less than favorable reputation, as they are somewhat apathetic to everything but their craft. But then again, in a world without the alignment axis, who's to say who is Good who is Evil?

I love moral ambiguity, so I'm all for that. Better question: are any of the legendary Nurn (I have so much trouble not typing that as Norn and I have NO IDEA why) weapons used/made for tyrants, murderers, despots, and others that go beyond merely "less than favorable?"

Also, if you're taking votes, given what you've done with gnomes I'd love to see your take on elves - Feywycin, rather.

Point of clarification - are Elves, Dwarves, etc what humans call them, and the other names what they call themselves, or do all people refer to elves as Feywycin? If the former, what do Dwarves call Elves? Do all species have unique names for the others?

Quote from: Xathan
I love moral ambiguity, so I'm all for that. Better question: are any of the legendary Nurn (I have so much trouble not typing that as Norn and I have NO IDEA why) weapons used/made for tyrants, murderers, despots, and others that go beyond merely "less than favorable?"

I would imagine they would not want to help someone intent on conquering the entire planet, but villains ala Sauron really don't have a place in this setting. But I can see them being tricked into making something for someone less than chivalrous.

Quote from: Xathan
Also, if you're taking votes, given what you've done with gnomes I'd love to see your take on elves - Feywycin, rather.

Soon.

Quote from: Xathan
Point of clarification - are Elves, Dwarves, etc what humans call them, and the other names what they call themselves, or do all people refer to elves as Feywycin? If the former, what do Dwarves call Elves? Do all species have unique names for the others?

That's a really good point. The classic names (dwarf, elf, etc.) are what humans call these peoples, the names I have now is what they call themselves, and I suppose they also would have names each other as well, except that seems like a lot of work (40-odd words to make up) so I'll just address those as they come.

Ok, here's the take on Elves, hopefully it's different enough without deviating for deviations sake.

[ic=The Eylyf]An impossibly ancient race, the Eylyf, or 'Elf' in the parlance of Man, have ruled over their primordial lands since time immemorial. They are a people of contradictions, a people of poet-warriors and philosopher-kings, patient guardians and vengeance incarnate, they are physically frail and yet immortal. The history of Man and elf has been a troubled one at best, as they are, in a sense, each others opposites. Where the race of Man is brash, intuitive, and adaptive, the race of the Eylyfis tradition-bound, deliberate, and reflective. Man and Elf have been allies, enemies, and everything in between from the beginning of history. Their ways are barely understood, they figure into tavern tales boasting of the glorious alliance of Man and elf during the War of the Second Council and frightful midwives' tales warning of their treacherous nature in the Saga of Ewmthelyon.

To the race of Man, the ways of the elves are a bizarre mix of the familiar and alien. They share much in common – hubris, arrogance, and a penchant for vengeance to name a few. Men can easily understand the rule of the Elven High Kings and the hereditary infighting that follows in the wake of their deaths. But in other ways, the Ayelth are as strange to the western realms as are the motivations of wolves or the paths of the stars. Much like Man, the Elves are not a unified race. They are divided into dozens of kingdoms, localized family-tribes, and roaming caste-tribes. The most powerful kingdom at any time has the honor of hosting the Lilac Council, who meet sporadically and with varying productivity.

Perhaps the most fundamental character of an elf is his or her ability to live forever. They are not susceptible to the ravages on the body that old age brings, nor are they weak in the face of plague and sickness. As long they are not physically ended, as the end of a sword works just as well on an Elf as any other of the Mortal Kin, an elf may live to see the end of days. However, there is one caveat to this immortality. Unlike the other Kin, whose bodies regularly fail them before their mind, the Ayelth are the bearers of what some call a curse, others a disease. When an elf reaches a certain age, and this age varies greatly from one individual to another, sometimes 500 years, sometimes 1,000, they begin to show the symptoms of the Marowaeth-Yr, translated by some as 'The Long Melancholy', others as 'The Slow Death.' This blight is a prolonged death of the mind, a slow and steady dulling of the senses and spirit. Where as the rest of the Mortal Kin fear a physical death more than anything else, the Eylyf fear the Marowaeth-Yr above all. They fear it so much in fact, this languid deterioration of the self, that nearly all Eylyf, once they detect the onset, commit ritual suicide in a strangely festive and joyous occasion that celebrates life and the evasion of the Enaid-Mal – the 'Dead Soul', the final stage of the Marowaeth-Yr when the Ayelth pass to a semi-catatonic, rambling state of madness and misery. The ritual suicide, the Terfynyol, is also of great importance to society as a whole, as to kill an elf of the Enayd-Mal is a terrible taboo in Eylyf'n culture, bringing uncleanliness upon ones family-tribe until the end of time, even if the act is performed out of sheer mercy and pity. Many an Elven family-tribe has been brought to ruin or ostration in poorly handling the end of a loved ones time on this world, either by not pursuing the suicide soon enough or performing a mercy-killing once the Enayd-Mal had set in. Occasionally, an inflicted elder will hide the truth, perhaps out of fear or love, and avoid the Terfynyol for so long that the quietly Marowaeth-Yr sets in.

The Ayelth stand as tall any Man, but are severely lithe and thin, so much as to appear ill by any non-elf. While they are stronger than their appearance suggests, compared to such peoples as the Mzurth-Dura, Man, or the Orchim, they are still a frail, yet dexterous, people. Their skin is pale, their hair a jet black that turns to silver as they age. Their eyes as well, beginning in a shade of brown or green, also age to silver. Elder Eylyfof silver hair and silver eyes who have not yet been afflicted by the Marowaeth-Yr are held in the highest esteem in Elven culture, regardless of family pedigree or past deeds – to stave off the Long Melancholy is considered a triumph as great as any. They are remarkably skilled in the use of the bow and of the spear and many of the family-tribes are well versed in the art of song, dance, and poetry - the Elven sagas are well-known for their length, some take entire days to recite. While they have no compunctions against the killing of beasts for food or furs, they tend to have a closer relationship with the natural world than Man or the Mzurth-Dura and are not particularly well-versed in advanced metal-working or masonry.

Compared to the times of old, there is little contact between the realms of Man and Eylyf, with both peoples living under the peace of a cold truce forced half a millennium ago. With the realms of Man and elf physically divided by great mountains and deep forests, contact is not what it once was. However, in recent years, the Ayelth have seem to have been drawn towards the realms of the other Mortal Kin for reasons still unknown, and while seeing an Elven progression or caravan is far from a common sight, bedecked in strange mixes of fine cloth and minimally treated hides and furs, it is not unheard of.
[/ic]

I'm too tired to give much more of a view right now, but I have to say...the Marowaeth-Yr is one of the coolest, most interesting takes on elven immortality I have ever seen, and must offer your props for such a creative way of handling it.

Alright, some actual questions:

Although the reasons are unknown why the elves are returning, do they give reasons? Are they contradictory, or just not talking? What are they doing while back? Where can they be found outside their lands? And finally, do any elves allow the Enaid-Mal to take them, and what do these beings of immortal madness DO?!

Leetz, I started rereading this after I realized I started up a very similar thread. I'll be keeping my thread to the discussion of how crunch influences the rest, and if the discussion can be a help to your creation, all the better.

As for yours, I am loving what you have so far. The gnomes are impressive; I'm liking them so much that I am reconsidering having them in my setting again (I've sort of grown worried that only having one small race was limiting me somehow). Expect some more ideas from me.

One thing to remember, even going by the 3.5 DMG's rules for city creation, less than 1% of the population are spellcasters to begin with. Heck, less than 3% of the population have PC classes, so you already don't have to worry about them being prolific. Levels can get high; a city the size of Paris has 4 wizards of at least 13th level, and a 60% chance of having at least one that's level 16 (1d4+12 x4 for max level wizards in a metropolis).

I am also working on a fantasy medieval demographics system, for determining how many elves live in that forest.

Quote from: Xathan
Alright, some actual questions:

Although the reasons are unknown why the elves are returning, do they give reasons? Are they contradictory, or just not talking? What are they doing while back? Where can they be found outside their lands? And finally, do any elves allow the Enaid-Mal to take them, and what do these beings of immortal madness DO?!

No one really knows why the elves are slowly trickling back into human society (neither do I, I thought it was just a good plot point). As for the Enaid-Mal, no one wants it, yes it may be the road to physical immortality, but they merely be sedentary, semi-catatonic creatures for the rest of time.

I'm also thinking of changing the elven name for elves, Feywycin. I feel like it doesn't fit very well with the rest of the other names, too "exotic".

@Xeviat: Yeah, this thread is definitely more about fluff than crunch. I'm not terribly worried about demographics and class spreads, but more about realistic representations of race, conflict, and society (and economics to an extent I suppose as well)

Quote from: Señor Leetz

Quote from: Xathan
Alright, some actual questions:

Although the reasons are unknown why the elves are returning, do they give reasons? Are they contradictory, or just not talking? What are they doing while back? Where can they be found outside their lands? And finally, do any elves allow the Enaid-Mal to take them, and what do these beings of immortal madness DO?!

No one really knows why the elves are slowly trickling back into human society (neither do I, I thought it was just a good plot point). As for the Enaid-Mal, no one wants it, yes it may be the road to physical immortality, but they merely be sedentary, semi-catatonic creatures for the rest of time.

Do you plan on deciding why elves are trickling back, or is that going to be left up to DMs?

And if no one wants it, ever, then how do they know what happens? Is it faith? Do they have past examples? Are there any who succumbed to it still around? Is captivity until Enald-Mal sets in their version of capital punishment? Can I steal this idea but alter it slightly?

QuoteI'm also thinking of changing the elven name for elves, Feywycin. I feel like it doesn't fit very well with the rest of the other names, too "exotic".

I'll admit I have no freaking idea how you pronounce it. Fah-i-wiccan? Fae-why-sin? As my typical rule of thumb, if I can't said it out loud easily, it probably needs work.

Would calling them simply the Fe be too simple or similar to fey? The Aesila?

Quote from: XathanAs my typical rule of thumb, if I can't said it out loud easily, it probably needs work.

With an exception given to Lovecraftian-inspired settings, I'd hope. :grin:

Anyway, I think "Fe" is too close to fey/fae/whatever, but a lot of elves have those kinds of roots, so the similarity may not be entirely a bad thing?

Haha so name change. A handful of ideas: Aeld, Faen, Cin, Sile?

Hello everyone. I would like to start working on this setting again. But before that, I had a 3E conundrum - how come elves live the longest of all the core PC races, but have the lowest constitution, the universal attribute for health and durability. Shouldn't dwarves and/or gnomes live the longest?

Welcome back, Leetz!

I've never actually thought about this, but here's an answer off the top of my head:

Con refers to your ability to resist damage and diseases, as you pointed out. The lifespans presented for the PC races refer to how long you'll live without those being a factor - in short, it refers to your genetic lifespan. Those two could be independent. In game terms, while they start off less healthy than most races, the time it takes them to start taking additional penalties to Con from age is much higher than most, creating longer lifespans. In addition, in many worlds Elves live in fairly isolated communities, limiting their exposure to foreign pathogens, so they may be resistant to the relatively few diseases they encounter in their lives while still being more susceptible than most to new illnesses they encounter.

Hey welcome back!

I think the "real" reason Elves live longer is because that's how Tolkien wrote them, and Tolkien Elves probably have +4 to every stat anyway. Vulcans may also be to blame here.

Going by D&D rules and assuming that Constitution correlates with age, it makes way more sense for Dwarves/Gnomes to live the longest.

You could also say that maybe the elves, being the de facto nature-loving Magic users, draw their unnaturally long lives from arcane sources.

Also, welcome back!

thanks for the welcomes everyone!

Quote from: Xathan
Con refers to your ability to resist damage and diseases, as you pointed out.

But isn't that how the majority of people die? From diseases or cancers or other illnesses?  

Quote from: Steerpike
Going by D&D rules and assuming that Constitution correlates with age, it makes way more sense for Dwarves/Gnomes to live the longest.

I think that would be an interesting take. And considering the Meatloaf setting (removing what eventually became Grindelrath) is fluffing the 3.5E crunch,* that would make sense right?

*With certain creative license, of course.

Quote

But isn't that how the majority of people die? From diseases or cancers or other illnesses? 

Oh, absolutely. It's very possible that no elf ever manages to reach their natural lifespan - so while in theory, elves can live the longest of any races, in practice, they rarely even outlive humans.

Quote

Quote from: Steerpike
Going by D&D rules and assuming that Constitution correlates with age, it makes way more sense for Dwarves/Gnomes to live the longest.

I think that would be an interesting take. And considering the Meatloaf setting (removing what eventually became Grindelrath) is fluffing the 3.5E crunch,* that would make sense right?

*With certain creative license, of course.

Please do that! It'd be interesting to see what changes with your elves once they no longer have the smug cultural superiority that comes from being the longest lived of all races. And what happens to your dwarves/gnomes now that they do have that.

Quote from: LeetzI think that would be an interesting take. And considering the Meatloaf setting (removing what eventually became Grindelrath) is fluffing the 3.5E crunch,* that would make sense right?

Yeah, definitely. The only ways I can think of for Elves to really be so long-lived would be something like:

- Tons of Clerics to keep the population highly resistant to disease and injury. All Elven households would have "medicine cabinets" with potions of Remove Disease, Restoration, etc. Clerics cast Raise Dead/Resurrection whenever an Elf dies.
- Ubiquitous Con-boosting magic items or other items that let them resist disease/injury that the Elves wear whenever they venture outside of their secret, insolated lands. Because of the number of Elven mages these might not be uncommon, and Elves would leave their enclaves only rarely.
- Something else keeps them long-lived, like magical tree-sap or enchanted water or something, or maybe Elves that die are immediately reborn back in their homelands (this is kind of how it works in Tolkien - dead Elves eventually get new bodies, they just almost never go back to Middle Earth)

Even with those augmentations it still probably makes sense to keep Dwarves/Gnomes as super-old.

To really turn everything on its head, considering the Constitution issue, what if Elves lived the shortest lives of all the races, considering their frailty? *MIND BLOWN*

Crunch-wise, that would make sense, right? As Steerpike said, it's really only Tolkien's influence that makes us automatically think of elves as wise and long-lived.

Would they become more warlike? Volatile? Rash? Impatient? Vulnerable to corruption and evil deeds? If, as per 3.5E, elves do not require sleep, a war-band of elves would be terrifying, as they could march and fight around the clock to less disadvantage. Not sleeping would also gives elves approximately %33 more time during their lives to do things (if we figure 8 hours a day are spent asleep).

What if, to counter their possibly short lives, they were born with ancestral memories and knowledge, so that by the time they are 1 they can speak and learn, thoughtfully practice warfare at 10, so by the time they reach 18 years old they are incredibly skilled and intelligent, even though they may die by the time they reach 60 or 70.

Quote from: LeetzWould they become more warlike? Volatile? Rash? Impatient? Vulnerable to corruption and evil deeds?

Ooh, like the Ocampa in Star Trek!

They might become rash assholes. They might also be trying to cram in as much living as possible, running around like kids with hyperactive disorder, having as many new experiences as possible.

If you go with this concept I'd make their lifespans even shorter than 60 or 70, personally - that's barely less than a full human lifespan.

The ancestral memory thing is great. Here's another idea: what if some are possessed by their actual ancestors? Elven ghosts who possess children and body-surf through the ages. Maybe every seventh Elf-child (or something) gets offered up as a vessel to host the spirits of the dead.

Quote from: Steerpike

Quote from: LeetzWould they become more warlike? Volatile? Rash? Impatient? Vulnerable to corruption and evil deeds?

They might become rash assholes. They might also be trying to cram in as much living as possible, running around like kids with hyperactive disorder, having as many new experiences as possible.

If you go with this concept I'd make their lifespans even shorter than 60 or 70, personally - that's barely less than a full human lifespan.

The ancestral memory thing is great. Here's another idea: what if some are possessed by their actual ancestors? Elven ghosts who possess children and body-surf through the ages. Maybe every seventh Elf-child (or something) gets offered up as a vessel to host the spirits of the dead.

So like 50-60? They come to age around 16, are incredibly active for 25-30 years (adventuring, warring, writing, performing, learning, etc.), then finally settle down and raise their off-spring? Not that they would have much to teach is knowledge as genetic.

That's a good idea. Some rare form of honored-dead.

Additionally, from a social angle, if memories and skills are broadly disseminated paternally/maternally, I would imagine it would lead to a very rigid caste society, where you do what your father did because you are born with the base knowledge of what your father does. Obviously, individuals could change this, but with life so short it may not be worth it.

Or maybe the genetic knowledge is lessened as more children are produced. The first child has 9/10 of his/hers fathers/mothers knowledge, the next has maybe 2/3, the next 1/2, the next 1/4, until finally the 8th or so child receives nothing a must pursue their own life somehow (a good PC story?).

Edit: Or is the genetic memory thing too much, and elves simply live short but eventful lives, as they do not sleep?

Quote from: O Senhor Leetz
To really turn everything on its head, considering the Constitution issue, what if Elves lived the shortest lives of all the races, considering their frailty? *MIND BLOWN*

Crunch-wise, that would make sense, right? As Steerpike said, it's really only Tolkien's influence that makes us automatically think of elves as wise and long-lived.

That would be a crazy change on things, and would be interesting to see! One fun thing to consider - given they are the shortest-lived race, they would also likely be far more numerous than most races as well, or at least not have the typical problem of "elven children are rare." The whole "shortest lifespan" thing is actually a bit of a stroke of genius, since one common element among elves is "So many subraces." If we assume they are the shortest lived race and have a high number of children, mutation would be common, and all the different subraces would suddenly make sense!

QuoteWould they become more warlike? Volatile? Rash? Impatient? Vulnerable to corruption and evil deeds? If, as per 3.5E, elves do not require sleep, a war-band of elves would be terrifying, as they could march and fight around the clock to less disadvantage. Not sleeping would also gives elves approximately %33 more time during their lives to do things (if we figure 8 hours a day are spent asleep).

I could definitely see them becoming all of those things. In fact, if we're going this route, the Elves will start becoming the orcs or goblins of your setting, which would be a great take on it - especially if you keep their typical assumption of beauty, would be a totally different variant on the norm while still falling well into the "meatloaf" feel you want.

QuoteWhat if, to counter their possibly short lives, they were born with ancestral memories and knowledge, so that by the time they are 1 they can speak and learn, thoughtfully practice warfare at 10, so by the time they reach 18 years old they are incredibly skilled and intelligent, even though they may die by the time they reach 60 or 70.

I love this idea. It also would lead to them becoming much more war-like and reckless overall - a mindset of "even if I die, my deeds will live on in our ancestral memory, giving me a form of nigh-immortality no matter what happens to this flesh" could easily develop. It would also allow them to still create beautiful works of art and architecture and all that while still being incredibly warlike, so you could have something similar to the classic elven aestetic while also making them the vicious buggers they're becoming.

Honestly, this is the most interesting take on elves I've seen on awhile. if I ever revive Xeno Fantasum, my "Classic fantasy but different" seting, can I steal this?

I like the genetic memory angle, though I wonder whether it actually would result in a caste system given the short lifespans. If life is super short and you mature quickly, wouldn't you want to do as much as possible? As a result Elves might be more like jacks-of-all-trades. Genetic memory might function kinda like Bardic Knowledge - Elves can afford to do a bunch of different things with their lives because they master new skills rapidly, having a base of skills gleaned from their memory. Basically, they don't need to worry much about education and training, they can just go out and do things.

On the other hand medieval serfs probably didn't make it past 50 very often and most led pretty monotonous lives. This would tend to push traditionally "Chaotic" Elf-society pretty strongly into Lawful territory, though.

Quote from: Steerpike
I like the genetic memory angle, though I wonder whether it actually would result in a caste system given the short lifespans. If life is super short and you mature quickly, wouldn't you want to do as much as possible? As a result Elves might be more like jacks-of-all-trades. Genetic memory might function kinda like Bardic Knowledge - Elves can afford to do a bunch of different things with their lives because they master new skills rapidly, having a base of skills gleaned from their memory. Basically, they don't need to worry much about education and training, they can just go out and do things.

On the other hand medieval serfs probably didn't make it past 50 very often and most led pretty monotonous lives. This would tend to push traditionally "Chaotic" Elf-society pretty strongly into Lawful territory, though.

Maybe just keeping the genetic memories at "they gain skills quickly" would be enough?

Quote from: XathanI love this idea. It also would lead to them becoming much more war-like and reckless overall - a mindset of "even if I die, my deeds will live on in our ancestral memory, giving me a form of nigh-immortality no matter what happens to this flesh" could easily develop. It would also allow them to still create beautiful works of art and architecture and all that while still being incredibly warlike, so you could have something similar to the classic elven aestetic while also making them the vicious buggers they're becoming.

Honestly, this is the most interesting take on elves I've seen on awhile. if I ever revive Xeno Fantasum, my "Classic fantasy but different" seting, can I steal this?

Why thank you sir. I have no qualms with sharing this idea.

As for the rest of the elves' 3.5E fluff, the only other thing I may play with is their affinity for longswords and rapiers. If elves are primarily forest dwellers, it seems like lots of iron would be needed to make what would seemingly be lots of swords as everyone is good with them. Iron means mines, which seem antithetical to the nature-y elves. What about replacing their affinity with blades with an affinity towards short- and long-spears? Less metal, more wood, makes sense. Also, spears are very cool but very underused. The spear could also be the elves "cultural" identifier that plays into legends and ideas of "racial identity" - humans have swords, dwarves have axes, gnomes have hammers, halflings have slings, elves have spears. (Or just give humans spears and elves swords and just figure out the metal part, meteors?, later.)

Additionally, with regards to "Wizard" as favored class, maybe this a result of many elves seeing magic as a way of prolonging their short lives? Not every elf will be a wizard, but kings, princes, and war-leaders may. This would make writing a history easier as they wouldn't have a new king every 20 years. Maybe the most skilled elven wizards do live for hundreds of years, if only through personal skill in magic.

Quote from: LeetzIron means mines

Actually, not necessarily. Bog iron is a valid alternative and was used extensively throughout the ancient world and well into the middle ages and early modern periods. Rarer though still a noteworthy source is meteoric iron. And, of course, there's alchemy and magic. Elves might be able to transmute other substances into metals.

All that said, spears are criminally underemphasized in most settings despite being way more important than swords for many cultures, and it makes sense for Elves to use them, or even spear-swords hybrids like naginata.

Quote from: Steerpike
Bog iron.

That's a great idea. And would make total sense.

Also, this is how I imagine elves: http://archive.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/wallpaper_thelonitehermit_1024x768.jpg]http://archive.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/wallpaper_thelonitehermit_1024x768.jpg]http://archive.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/wallpaper_thelonitehermit_1024x768.jpg (http://archive.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/wallpaper_thelonitehermit_1024x768.jpg)

Additionally, if anyone is curious as to what is going on, what I'm going is taking the core crunch from 3.5E and then extrapolating the fluff from that information. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm)

For example, why is the elven favored class Wizard, or if dwarves and gnomes have higher constitutions why aren't they the longest-lived, or why are halflings so resistant to fear and other ill effects?

Some more thoughts:

Do we automatically assume that elves live in the forests just as we assume that they live along time? There's really nothing in the crunch that would suggest they would be better off in a forest than anywhere else. Dwarves, on the other hand, get crunch bonuses to stone/metal things and being underground. Gnomes get 'Speak with animal' as an ability, which would suggest they would be more inclined towards nature.

Also, does anyone have any suggestion on to how enough humans could cross a large ocean to escape a catastrophe and still stand a change landing on a continent full of dwarven and elven kingdoms and empires? You would need lots of boats and I don't want to really to heavily on magic. Thoughts, ideas?

Elves are usually pretty reclusive/secretive/withdrawn and Dwarves are generally more interested in commerce than conquest. Or they could be. So if humans beached in a land filled with those peoples they might be able to scratch out a place for themselves without too much bloodshed.

Or maybe they didn't, and the human realms are all provinces and client-kingdoms of Elven and Dwarven empires. Humans might basically be a slave-race, a subjugated people, or just seen as the inferiors of Elves and Dwarves.

Quote from: Steerpike
Or maybe they didn't, and the human realms are all provinces and client-kingdoms of Elven and Dwarven empires. Humans might basically be a slave-race, a subjugated people, or just seen as the inferiors of Elves and Dwarves.

Wouldn't that be interesting...

Also, the more I think about this, the more terrible the basic premise of DnD fluff is. So many assumptions without support in the crunch.

Honestly, if you're set on deriving a setting from game mechanics then the magic system as-written will be an enormous source of issues. Consider the ease (and cost efficiency) of conjuring food, curing diseases, healing injuries and fixing broken items. To say nothing of the economical implications of using controlled undead and constructs as (virtually cost-free in the long term) labour, or the military/security implications of teleportation, mind reading and shapechanging - to name but a few spells.

A lot depends on how most people generate their stats, how common magic is, and how high most people level.

Quote from: Ghostman
Honestly, if you're set on deriving a setting from game mechanics then the magic system as-written will be an enormous source of issues. Consider the ease (and cost efficiency) of conjuring food, curing diseases, healing injuries and fixing broken items. To say nothing of the economical implications of using controlled undead and constructs as (virtually cost-free in the long term) labour, or the military/security implications of teleportation, mind reading and shapechanging - to name but a few spells.

that is a very good point and the more I dig into this, the messier it becomes. I think if this setting's going to have a "familiar yet well-done" feel to it, I may have to take creative license more than I planned on.

Quote from: O Senhor Leetz

Quote from: Ghostman
Honestly, if you're set on deriving a setting from game mechanics then the magic system as-written will be an enormous source of issues. Consider the ease (and cost efficiency) of conjuring food, curing diseases, healing injuries and fixing broken items. To say nothing of the economical implications of using controlled undead and constructs as (virtually cost-free in the long term) labour, or the military/security implications of teleportation, mind reading and shapechanging - to name but a few spells.

that is a very good point and the more I dig into this, the messier it becomes. I think if this setting's going to have a "familiar yet well-done" feel to it, I may have to take creative license more than I planned on.

One option to consider for the above possible problems: the books and RAW don't have anything to say about how common casters are. If you make casters rare enough, their services and time would be a such a premium and the costs would be high enough that it would impact the world less.

There are some guidelines in the DMG for how common casters are, I think - stuff like "here's the max level of caster for this population size," anyway. But they're not definitive by any means.