[note]I recently changed direction on my goal for creating a new armor system, one which I think will be more simplistic.[/note]
Recently I have developed an interest in reworking D&D's armor system. Currently I run a game utilizing Armor as AC and DR, Class Defense Bonuses, and Wound/Vitality Points, but as usual I intend to create my new rules in such a way that everyone can use them (like my MP system). I have begun talking with Raelifin about it, but I'd like to open up discussion about it first before I begin working on it in earnest.
So, I'd like to open up the floor to discuss Armor in D&D. I believe the biggest flaw in D&D's armor system is that one's choice of armor is not a character preference; a character chooses the best armor for their Dex. Expanding upon that, there are currently 5 out of the standard 12 armors that are worthless: Hide, Scale Mail, Chain Mail, Splint Mail, and Banded Mail. The reasons these armors are weak is because their AC Bonus and Max Dex Bonus add up to less than 8. Worse still, the only armors which do add up to 8 or more fall upon Dex scores in such a way that a character with a Dex of 14 or 15 lacks an optimal Armor; they're stuck with wearing a heavier armor and losing out on some of their Dex, or wearing a lighter armor and getting less AC.
Another fault is that heavy armors are fundamentally weaker than other armors; what I mean is that you can get the same AC and a better speed with lighter armors and a decent Dex: there is absolutely no reason for a high Dex character to want to strap on heavy armor, and that doesn't seem realistic to me. I recently started learning to weave maille, so I've been talking with recreationists who fight with blunted metal weapons and functional armor, so I've begun to see a new side of armor.
The only way to improve armors in D&D currently is to boost the AC granted by medium and heavy armors. All armors should have AC bonuses and Max Dex bonuses that add up to 8, and mediums should add up to 9 and heavies should add up to 10; that way, taking getting heavier armor proficiencies actually grants you extra power, rather than simply allowing you to survive with a lower Dexterity score (which carries it's own penalties, which is why I don't buy it).
Taking those points to a further level, the fundamental flaw of D&D's armor system is that it lacks player options and aesthetics; I have a player who really likes chain armors, his characters either have too high Dexterities or too low Dexterities to utilize them properly. An example of a system in the game which allows for aesthetic appeal is the weapon system: ideally, every weapon of the same proficiency and handedness is as powerful as the others (scimitar, longsword, and battleaxe are all the same power; use of them comes down to preference for image or preference for critical styles [though I admit the higher threat range/higher crit multiplier weapons become better once you have massive bonuses to damage, except against crit immunes]).
So, a character's choice between Light, Medium, and Heavy armor should be more similar to the choice between a simple, martial, or exotic weapon, or perhaps a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon; it's partially preference, and partially use the best you can (but to defend the last statement, someone who wishes to use something lighter or heavier should still get a tangible benefit out of their choice).
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[note]Here's where things change.[/note]
Keeping with my original idea of reducing armor to leather, chain, and plate, I have come to the realization that a more simplistic system is possible. First off, we start with the three armor types: Light, Medium, and Heavy. We also have three armor materials: leather, chain, and plate. This just begs to be condenced: now we have three armors: Leather, Chain, and Plate.
Then, what about heavier materials? Since there are only 3 armor proficiencies, we can't change things to much, but we can make heavy leather (a medium armor) which we call Hide, we can also make light leather (a light armor) which we call chainshirt, a heavy chain (a heavy armor) which we'll call splint mail (plates linked to other plates, a "soft" armor like chain), and last a light plate (a medium armor) which we'll call breastplate.
That gives us 7 armors: 2 lights, 3 mediums, and 2 heavies.
Then, to create differences between them. Leather armor can provide an even amount of AC and DR; leather both absorbs impact and deflects impact (because leather is hardened and becomes rather inflexible). Chain armor can provide more DR than AC; chain, for the most part, protects by absorbing impact, not deflecting it. Plate armor, finally, can provide more AC than DR; plate protects largely by deflecting blows, while a solid hit can still mostly be felt. I may be off base here, but this will create armors with some varieties, and those varieties can be chosen for stylistic and esthetic purposes (just like one chooses between a sword and an axe for looks and for the differences between a 19-20/x2 crit and a 20/x3 crit).
To keep differentiation alive, there will be some modifications. All seven of these armors can be "reinforced": leather becomes studded, chain becomes scale, and plate becomes full plate (I imagine basic plate being like roman armor, made of bands of plates layered over one another, and full plate being a more reinforced structure). Reinforced armors will increase AC but decrease maneuverability (allowing a player to further customize their character: do they want a higher flatfooted AC or a higher touch AC?).
Lastly, I will propose a change to Max Dex bonuses. Currently, Max Dex bonuses cause a lot of min-maxing: most people won't pick chainmail over breastplate since they both offer the same AC but breastplate has a higher Max Dex. Max Dex causes the light armors to be good, and leaves breastplate and full-plate as the only medium/heavy armors on the playing field (and even then, the differences between chainshirt and breastplate are small at best).
So, instead of having Max Dex, armors can have a Dex penalty, or simply a Dodge penalty (similar to the Armor Check Penalties). I've worn armor before, a simple aluminum hauberk that weighed 15 pounds. It restricted me, even with padding and a weight reducing belt. There's no way I have higher than an 18 dex, which I'd need to be restricted by what amounts to a Chainshirt in D&D. Slapping a suit of fullplate on a Dex 18 guy and a Dex 8 guy should restrict them both, but in D&D only the Dex 18 guy is restricted. Replacing Max Dex with a Dodge penalty will make balancing armors more simple.
So, how much of a penalty? Let's say Light armors have an AC+DR equalling 2, Medium's equalling 5, and Heavy's equalling 8: how much of a penalty should they impose? I'd prefer them all to be even numbers, which will make things easier, so it could also be 2, 6, and 10. Reinforcing armor will increase the dodge penalty by 1 (and adjust the weight and armor check penalties).
So, with these changes, does anyone have any new ideas?
Of course, where does that leave the aesthetical pleasures of the scale mail, banded mail, and splint mail?
It seems like a good system, but it also adds even more math to the game. Every change to make things more realistic in D&D also tends to make things more complicated there on the playing table. I've gotten recently where I just prefer to keep things simple. But on the other hand, it does seem like a good way to go to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. There should be more options, though, than just leather, chain, and plate.
Quote from: IshmaylOf course, where does that leave the aesthetical pleasures of the scale mail, banded mail, and splint mail?
As I began to say, scale is "reinforced" chain. If you've seen what armor scales look like, they are diamond plates with a hole at the top so they can be fitted onto chain rings. So it's like a coat of maille with plates hanging off it.
Banded and split would probably be "primitive" plate.
As for the math, once it's finished I don't think it would be too much. Heck, you don't even have to use it as a piecemeal system, you can just have premade suits. The main purpose is to strike a balance between the armor types, make mediums and heavy actually perform better in certain categories, so that there is more of a choice.
I find this system adjustment to be a good thing. Long have I played with the actual choice between five different armors. I'm hopping to use your system, when you hammer it out. Good luck.
Question about non standard armor, what about those who wear 20 odd layers of clothing insted of armor. (a gutter snipes mounten of clothing must count as some thing)
That would be "padded" armor, which could be seen as "inferior leather".
I'm still hammering out ideas for this, but since I've begun actual work on my setting, it will be some time before I get to the equipment section (I'm doing it chapter by chapter, so "Races" is my current focus).
Hmmm. So you say you don't like the fact that a high dex with light armor can equal full plate? But, the question is, why bother with that high dexterity if you could go for strength instead and wear full plate?
Most characters I've seen with high dexterities have those stats because they either A) Want to be a swashbuckler-type wearing light armor and finessing, or B) Their class doesn't allow heavier armors. You'll generally already be better off keeping dex at a 12 and going for full plate, while being able to hit stuff harder, no?
Sure, high dexterity and light armor can achieve the same AC as full plate and relatively low dexterity, and will have higher speed, but he'll also have to burn a feat for Weapon Finesse, be hitting for way less damage (smaller weapon for Weapon Finesse + Lower Strength Modifier), and he probably built the character that way because he wanted to be in light armor.
If anything, I've had trouble getting people out of heavy armors, which is why I devised a convoluted mechanical way of saying, "Not many wear armor in the city!" for my urban campaign setting.
As for piecemeal armor, I think the idea in general has a lot of possibility for character customization, but it can end up overcomplicating things, so be careful.
Oh, and I agree it's a shame there's only one or two armors from each catagory worthy of being worn.
High dex characters should be harder to hit; low dex characters with heavy armor should be harder to damage. This is ultimately why I believe an AC+DR system for armor is the best solution; it allows for more variety within each max dex.
In the end, I'm still working on this, but your input will help me.
Hello there: I've made a change to the first post, since I've come up with a more simplistic system for this change.
Additionally, I created helmets for my game:
Leather Cap: +1 AC vs. critical confirmation checks, -1 Spot and Listen.
Chain Hood: +2 AC vs. critical confirmation checks, -2 Spot and Listen.
Plate Helm: +3 AC vs. critical confirmation checks, -2 Spot and Listen.
Full Helm: +4 AC vs. critical confirmation checks, -4 Spot and Listen.
Since gaining +4 to hit for critical confirmation checks is a feat, and -4 Spot and Listen is a flaw, I figure gaining +4 AC vs. critical confirmation checks could be considered a feat (and thus balanced out by the flaw). The others followed suit.
Quote from: XeviatHigh dex characters should be harder to hit; low dex characters with heavy armor should be harder to damage. This is ultimately why I believe an AC+DR system for armor is the best solution; it allows for more variety within each max dex.
In the end, I'm still working on this, but your input will help me.
I see your point and I agree with it. However, I don't agree with the point that armor should provide both AC and DR.
The sidebar in UA explicitly explains how even the fullplate's DR of 4/- (or was it even 5/- ?) actually hurts against monsters with high attack bonuses and high damage values. The drop in AC compared to the normal AC bonus the armor would have normally provided makes the monsters hit more often, which does outweight the reduced damage from the DR.
Imho armor should only provide DR and not AC (which makes the term "armor class" somewhat useless, but still...). Also, I would make enhancement bonuses directly increase the DR. So that when a normal armor of type X has DR Y/-, a +1 armor of type X has DR Y+1/-. My reasoning is that there is indeniably an increase of damage output on the side of both monsters and PCs due to additional supplements. While the problem not being as evident in a "Core only" game, the moment you allow eg CWar you'll notice. And when a CR 20ish monster deals ~70 points of damage per blow, your armor's DR of 3/- is not helping much.
Therefore, if you made the DR armor grants equal to its current armor bonus, and allowed enhancement bonuses to improve that DR, the worst thing you could run across was DR 16/- on a highlevel fighter/paladin running around in a +5 adamantine fullplate, which seem's hardly extraordinary by the time a character can afford that compared to what spellcasters gain from
polymorph and its ilk. Actually, that'd make improving your armor's enhancement bonus instead of just stockpiling special abilities at last worthwhile, because after around level 10 or so every non-AC-twinked character is going to get hit on a rolled 2 anyways.
I'm definitely much more interested in this with your recent changes. I don't have any real constructive criticism or advice to offer, but I'm interested in trying this system out.
Also, where you mentioned "(I imagine basic plate being like roman armor, made of bands of plates layered over one another, and full plate being a more reinforced structure)," I think of full plate being a custom-fitted armor; full plate that was made for Bill may not fit properly on Bobby, and vice-versa, whereas regular plate mail (or as you mentioned, the roman banded plate armor), is kind of a "one-size-fits-all," or at least a "small, medium, large, extra-large" type of thing.
Anyhoo, good work.
Ra, the problem with having armor only provide DR is that it is entirely possible to circumvent armor entirely; if I hit the arm of someone wearing breastplate, I'm only bitting into leather (as D&D defines brestplate), or the arm of someone in chainshirt is completly uncovered.
Armor both absorbs and deflects. A curved surface has a higher chance of deflecting than a flat surface, which is why plate armor deflects so well. Deflection is much different than absorbing, which is what DR is. Ever recreationist I've spoken to on this matter says that armor both deflects and absorbs, and that my notion of "soft" armors (mails) providing more absorbtion than others is quite sound.
The only way I'd be able to see making armor entirely DR would be if crits were more likely and the function of crits was ignoring DR.
By the way, any opinions on my helms?
Quote from: XeviatRa, the problem with having armor only provide DR is that it is entirely possible to circumvent armor entirely; if I hit the arm of someone wearing breastplate, I'm only bitting into leather (as D&D defines brestplate), or the arm of someone in chainshirt is completly uncovered. [..]
Which only enters the stage if you use a hit-location system, something I highly oppose in DnD/d20. DnD's hit point mechanic is too abstract to allow for a reasonable way of determining where the blow landed. I personally abhorr the idea of hit-location in DnD just as I do with "critical fumbles". :-/
If the only important thing is "hit" or "no hit", then my suggestion would work very well. And even with your explaination of armor deflecting the blow... the blow still connected, didn't it? It only failed to inflict damage on the wearer because it slid off on the armor.
Quote from: XeviatBy the way, any opinions on my helms?
Nice, although I'm not sure if it was necessary. AFAICR, armor in DnD is supposed to come with appropriate headgear, or am I wrong? And the penalty to Spot/Listen - although being realistic - makes situation even worse for characters that usually wear heavy armors: fighters and paladins. :?:
I like the idea of armors providing both DR and AC, it does work to make the swinging of swords and stuff a bit more realistic when hitting a hard vs a soft surface.
But, on the dodge penalties. If you give an armor a ac bonus of 3, but then turn around and give it a dodge penalty of 3, aren't you worse off than if you'd just gone with straight DR in the first place? I understand where you're coming from on the logic of it, but putting in a dodge penalty defeats the purpose of the armor in the first place. A decrease is speed, the standard armor check penalties, penalties on the dexterity stat itself would all, more or less, make sense. A dodge penalty, imho, doesn't.
I think you mean it is mechanically counterproductive, not it doesn't make sense. It certainly makes sense that it is harder to dodge in heavy, albeit probably not that much harder (-3).
A dex penalty wouldn't make sense, since armor would not make you less coordinated, just less mobile. That is to say, should wearing a chain shirt make it significantly harder to throw a knife? It might make the action more tiring, but that is an issue of fatigue, not dexterity.
In the situation you describe, however, the character is not worse off - he has gained DR and kept the same armor class.
I've considered doing something like this for Witchcraft, perhaps removing the AC of armor entirely (as some have said previously) and either improving shields, changing BAB progressions, or something else. I've thought about the possibility of a d20 variant where if armor is only DR (and natural armor would be DR as well), BAB progressions would be more akin to what you see in 10-level PrCs, only over 20 levels: 1/2 BAB for fighter classes (resulting in +10/+5), 1/4 for average classes (resulting in +5), and 0 for sorcery classes. But that idea is fairly crazy.
Regardless, I think you're on the right track to some kickass realism, Xeviat.
This post is to talk shop; I'm trying to analyze armor in a point by point structure, similar to the way some of us have analyzed weapons. Obviously, Light armor is basic, but it does take 1 feat to wear without penalty. Likewise, Simple weapons are basic and require 1 feat to wield without penalty.
[note]Beware, this is about to get strange[/note]
In the weapon balance calculator I use, a simple weapon is worth 1 point, a martial is worth 2, and an exotic is worth 3. Thus, in such a system, a feat is worth 1 point. Without points, a medium sized weapon deals 1d4 20/x2 as a light, 1d6 20/x2 as a medium, and 1d8 20/x2 as a two-hander. A human's unarmed strike is a 1d3 20/x2 light nonlethal weapon; in my opinion, that's 2 penalties right there (lower damage die and nonlethal only), thus a weapon has 2 free points.
If one extrapolates this, equipment is worth 2 points by it's very nature of being equipment. The fact that it can be taken away or destroyed weakens it slightly (a feat can't be taken away after all).
Further expanding upon this, light armor then must be worth 3 points, just like a simple weapon. My armor system is setting out to have 2 beneficial qualities (AC and DR), and 2 negative qualities (Dodge penalty and Armor check penalty; though these penalties will probably be linked). A point of Armor AC is a feat, so it's worth one point; that's pretty simple. DR is slightly more complex: as power attack has shown us, 1 to hit is closer to 2 damage (weapon specialization backs this up as well); so it might be safe to say that 2 points of DR is a single point (does anyone disagree?).
Penalties are slightly harder to weigh, as players will accept penalties that don't penalize them too much. The Unearthed Arcana flaws are an example of how to weigh penalties. The Flaws have -1 AC as a flaw, and even though my penalty is a Dodge penalty, dodge penalties (like a negative dex) still apply while you are flat-footed. As for Armor check penalties, there is currently a flaw that gives you a -2 penalty to all physical skills; all physical skills encompasses all of the Armor Check penalty skills and concentration (could be included if arcane spell failure is changed), ride (could be included and have Mounted Combat remove the penalty, instead of doing it the way it is now), and use rope. Since that's so close, we'll use that; -1 armor check penalty is -0.5 points.
Going further still, armor can reduce speed and run speed. Halving speed is a flaw, so that's -1 point, but reducing run speed is a bit more difficult. The current run feat makes you not lose your Dex and increases your run speed, but even then it isn't enough (in my games, it makes your charge speed x3, and now it gets selected). Thus, I'm not sure how much of a penalty reducing your run speed really is unless it affects your charge speed. Going by the methods I did earlier, what would you say the penalty for reducing run speed would be? -0.5 points, or negligable?
So, if a few people think my reasoning is sound, I believe I can progress.
Hmm, to evaluate run speed, start by thinking about the situations in which it matters. I begin by noting that run speed effects are greater for the heavier and bulkier armors.
Closing - When an encounter begins at distance, run speed may reduce the number of rounds before melee is engaged. Primarily important for melee-preferred characters, who will probably prefer medium and heavy armor anyway. Thus, it may actually be a fairly serious impediment to such characters. They'll definitely prefer armors that provide less run speed reduction without sacrificing DR, if available.
Fleeing and chasing - When trying to escape an encounter gone bad, run speed will affect your ability to escape or to prevent a foe from escaping. Low run speed means that melee-bound characters will have to remain engaged unless they can get some kind of aid. Higher run speed means they can escape if they can disengage.
Charging - Similar to closing, but this determines how close they have to get before they can gain the benefits of a charge.
So I think I'd say that for light armor, the fleeing/chasing is the most important effect, because characters who choose light armor might prefer to avoid melee contact. For medium and heavier armor, the closing is the most important effect, and for some characters that are optimized for charging, that might be more important.
How important are these? In my experience, fleeing and chasing scenarios are fairly rare. When they do occur, magical aid is usually preferred over pure foot speed. Closing speed can be tactically important in some cases, especially to engage spell casters. But even there, it is most important in the early stages of an encounter.
The thing to keep in mind is that these balancing considerations can't really balance things entirely. For a given type of character and given type of encounter, there will be a best type of armor. What you can hope to accomplish is to balance things so that there is at least some reason to have multiple types of armor in the game.
For any given type of armor, there is at least some type of character that might prefer that type. Specifically, different types of character value the advantages and disadvantages differently. If the various armors are reasonably close in overall points, this change in values would that type of armor to be chosen by some types of characters but not by others.
For any given type of character, there might be different types of armor that would be more appropriate in particular situations. Specifically, in particular situations, different features of the armor are more relevant, and this could change which type of armor is "best" in that situation (for that type of character).
In this sense, it might sense to assign different point values for different types of characters or different situations, to see which types of armor come out on top in each case. For example, melee-based characters vs. skill-based or missile-based. Armor against missile-wielding foes, or against high-damage melee foes, or against large numbers of foes with lower damage. DR is going to be most important against foes that attack many times with lower damage, whereas AC is going to be most important against foes with high damage. (At least within limits - if the BAB is high enough, you are just screwed anyway, regardless of DR/AC. At that point run speed becomes more important.)
Being reminded, if you were ok with going hardcore complex you might want to take a look at some 2e renditions of armor and shields - different kinds were better against different kinds of attacks (don't know if anyone has already said this).
I don't like the complexity of 2E's different ACs versus different damage types. The closest thing I am considering doing is having the DR type of each armor be slightly different:
Leather offers DR/slashing: leather is soft and absorbs blunt impact, and it is firm and absorbs penetration, but cuts can penetrate it.
Chain offers DR/piercing: chain is a soft armor and thus widens blunt impact, and it is flexable enough to not be cut by blades.
Plate offers DR/bludgeoning: plate deflects both piercing and slashing attacks, but blunt attacks tend to hammer through it.
This doesn't mean these armors would be entirely worthless against said damage, as they still offer AC (which represents a deflection).
I ran my calculator on the armors in the PHB, modifying it for the difference in Max Dex. The light armors all come out balanced, but the medium and heavy armors are weak in that system's eyes. Remember, according to the game, it requires a feat to be able to use medium and heavy armor, and as of right now, those armors don't give enough oomph back to make up for their drawbacks.
I don't like Max Dex at all anymore, because it hurts characters differently.
Later today, I will post two versions of armor; one which has less DR that applies to everything, the other which has more DR but has a damage type penetration.
What I need from people now is discussion on which armor type (leather, chain, and plate) should affect skills the most.
PS: Snake, so are you saying that running could be tied to charging?
Hmm... makes me wonder actually... perhaps you could give each armor a base AC bonus, and give it DR or additional AC to specific types of attacks (piercing, bludgeoning, slashing), or even penalties to some.
EDIT: A little too late, lol.
Well, for starters, any armor that has to be custom-fitted (such as Ishmayl mentioned) shouldn't make things any worse than crappier armors, and might even make it better (you could handle full plate as only slightly better than regular plate in terms of AC/DR, but the penalties it gives wouldn't be as bad).
Perhaps it shouldn't be a matter so much of what type of armor it is, but how strong/agile the character is who wears the armor. Str/Dex requirements might be in order, where if your character doesn't have enough Str/Dex (hell even Con would work if you perceive it as stamina), as certain materials and armor weights are gonna tie you down. That's already in the form of ACPs, but...
I've been looking into handling the speed penalties similarly to the Armor Check Penalties; an armor check penalty applies a penalty to certain skills (all str or dex based), which can be negated or overcame by a high str or dex score; even though the penalties can be effectively negated, you are still better off without anything.
D&D's speed system is not augmented by ability scores at all, and it is only reduced once you reach a medium load. Common sense says that armor should probably only reduce your speed if you're put into your medium load, but this slightly flys into the face of convention: wearing 50 pounds of armor should slow everyone down, if only a little bit.
Also, changing the way the speed and ACPs are applied, as in having them not apply universally, is harder to balance in my opinion.
Right now, I'm building the armors following the notion that all light armors have the same penalties (none), all medium armors have the same (-1 Dodge, -4 ACP, -1/3rd speed), and all heavies have same (-2 Dodge, -8 ACP, -1/3rd speed and run/charge reduction). But the problem with this is that the armors are not differentiated enough, I don't think. Sure, I have the AC and DR applied being the same, but I'm not sure if this leaves the "skill armor" out of the equasion.
Should I strive for diversity or fairness?
Quote from: XeviatShould I strive for diversity or fairness?
Diversity... with fairness. If you look at weapons (and I'm sure you have), you can see how you have a large amount of them that can do different things (Deal more damage, reach, able to trip with it, etc), that's really the beauty of that weapon system. I've read most of this thread, but not all... I'll reply later with more imput. I just wanted to answer that question.
I'm anxiously awaiting your answer.
Quote from: XeviatI've been looking into handling the speed penalties similarly to the Armor Check Penalties; an armor check penalty applies a penalty to certain skills (all str or dex based), which can be negated or overcame by a high str or dex score; even though the penalties can be effectively negated, you are still better off without anything.
D&D's speed system is not augmented by ability scores at all, and it is only reduced once you reach a medium load. Common sense says that armor should probably only reduce your speed if you're put into your medium load, but this slightly flys into the face of convention: wearing 50 pounds of armor should slow everyone down, if only a little bit.
Also, changing the way the speed and ACPs are applied, as in having them not apply universally, is harder to balance in my opinion.
Right now, I'm building the armors following the notion that all light armors have the same penalties (none), all medium armors have the same (-1 Dodge, -4 ACP, -1/3rd speed), and all heavies have same (-2 Dodge, -8 ACP, -1/3rd speed and run/charge reduction). But the problem with this is that the armors are not differentiated enough, I don't think. Sure, I have the AC and DR applied being the same, but I'm not sure if this leaves the "skill armor" out of the equasion.
Should I strive for diversity or fairness?
Xeviat, just a suggestion. In one of your earlier posts (IIRC) you mentioned that you dislike the fact that max Dex penalizes characters differently. But from what I've read from your last post you generally reduce speed by certain increments ("-1/3rd speed"). This would actually penalize a character with a higher speed (say a human barbarian; speed 40ft, -1/3rd -> ~26ft, difference 14ft) more than characters with a lower speed (say dwarven fighter; speed 20ft, -1/3rd -> ~13, difference 7ft).
Why not make it so that for every 2 or 3 points of ACP the character takes a -5ft penalty to speed? You could cap the speed penalty at some point (like -10 or -15 ft), and make all additional penalties reduce running/charging speed.
[table=Example armors]
[tr][th]Armor[/th] [th]ACP[/th] [th]Speed penalty[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Padded[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Leather[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Studded leather[/td] [td]-1[/td] [td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Chain shirt[/td] [td]-2[/td] [td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Hide[/td] [td]-3[/td] [td]-5ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Scale mail[/td] [td]-4[/td] [td]-5ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Chainmail[/td] [td]-5[/td] [td]-10ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Breastplate[/td] [td]-4[/td] [td]-5ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Splint mail[/td] [td]-7[/td] [td]-10ft / run x3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Banded mail[/td] [td]-6[/td] [td]-10ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Half-plate[/td] [td]-7[/td] [td]-10ft / run x3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Full-plate[/td] [td]-6[/td] [td]-10ft[/td][/tr]
[/table]
Here's my first attempt. This DR is DR/crit, which means it blocks all physical damage unless it comes from a critical hit (if you're using VP/WP, I suggest having DR apply to WP damage as well). This DR was priced 1 point for 1 point; I'll make a different version with the alternate pricing with the DR applying differently for different armors.
Tell me what you think.
[table=Armor 2.0]
[tr][td]Light[/td][td]Cost[/td][td]AC[/td][td]DR[/td][td]-Dodge[/td][td]ACP[/td][td]Wt.[/td][td]Speed[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Leather[/td][td]10[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][td]-1[/td][td]10[/td][td]1/1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Light Chain[/td][td]50[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][td]-1[/td][td]20[/td][td]1/1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Medium[/td][td]Cost[/td][td]AC[/td][td]DR[/td][td]-Dodge[/td][td]ACP[/td][td]Wt.[/td][td]Speed[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Heavy Leather[/td][td]30[/td][td]4[/td][td]4[/td][td]-1[/td][td]-4[/td][td]25[/td][td]1/3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Chain[/td][td]150[/td][td]3[/td][td]5[/td][td]-1[/td][td]-4[/td][td]35[/td][td]1/3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Light Plate[/td][td]200[/td][td]5[/td][td]3[/td][td]-1[/td][td]-4[/td][td]40[/td][td]1/3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Heavy[/td][td]Cost[/td][td]AC[/td][td]DR[/td][td]-Dodge[/td][td]ACP[/td][td]Wt.[/td][td]Speed[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Heavy Chain[/td][td]450[/td][td]5[/td][td]8[/td][td]-2[/td][td]-7[/td][td]45[/td][td]1/3*[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Plate[/td][td]800[/td][td]8[/td][td]5[/td][td]-2[/td][td]-7[/td][td]50[/td][td]1/3*[/td][/tr][/table]
Bump. Still need opinions guys.
I think it looks pretty good, and it being a little more generic than normal is nice. Have you done much playtesting? I'm starting to wonder if more protection should be offered by medium in comparison to light, and heavy in comparison to medium considering the penalties they give, but I'm not sure.
In weight of the penalties, medium and heavy offer enough protection. The only problem arises when you note that heavy chain is technically only offering +3 AC (since it has a -2 Dodge penalty) and plate is only offering +6 (since it has a -2 Dodge penalty as well). The standard AC/DR rules from UA has full plate offering 4 AC and 4 DR, but my full plate offers +8 AC and 5 DR, and that adds up to 11 when you take the dodge penalty into consideration.
I've only gotten to playtest this for one encounter, and one of the players is wearing heavy chain at 2nd level. I'm not sure how balanced the 8 DR is at this level, but I think it should be fine later (and threats can penetrate it, but I've only hit him once with an arrow from a scout's comp (+2) shortbow for 12 damage).
It makes sense. Someone wearing decent armor should be much harder to kill just by running up and swinging a weapon at them, unless you're very good at hitting vital areas.
Also, I don't think you need to worry about certain types of armor bonuses, but what about natural armor? Have you worked that out, yet? Maybe have DR be equal to twice the square root of the natural armor except for numbers lower than 4, in which case the number just becomes DR (so a natural armor of +4 is still +4, +9 is +6, +25 is +10), with some AC (if the total DR doesn't already a number close to original number of natural armor?). Maybe something with HD?
I didn't intend on giving DR for NA, but I could ... it just seemed like something I could easily ignore (especially since armor DR is DR/threat, not DR/-).
I must say, I really like the idea you've got going here. I'm not entirely sure on the numbers, I think you would need to do a fair amount of playtesting to get them tweaked better, but overall it looks very good.
I've been working on a very similar armour model, in fact it was inspired by this one.
I've eliminated medium armour, but have one of each type (leather, mail, plate) for each of the two remaining weight categories, so that there's still six types of armour to choose from.
Here's what I've gotten so far. Speed Penalty and Armour Check Penalty haven't been decided on yet. Also these armours are designed for my custom d20 system, rather than standard dnd, so there's a few changes that would be unbalanced in a normal game.
Leather AC -2 Crit AC +4(+2) DR 2
Chain Shirt AC -2 Crit AC +2(+0) DR 3 (-2 AC, +3 DR compared to unarmed)
Breastplate AC -2 Crit AC +6(+4) DR 1
Hide AC -6 Crit AC +10(+4) DR 4 (-4 AC, +3 DR compated to breastplate)
Chain Mail AC -6 Crit AC +8(+2) DR 6 (-4 AC, +4 DR compared to leather)
Full Plate AC -6 Crit AC +12(+6) DR 2
Each type of armour applies an AC penalty, due to limiting mobility, but increases ac on rolls to confirm critical hits, as well as providing DR. Armour doesn't provide an AC bonus since I'm giving everybody an AC bonus equal to their Base Attack Bonus.
Also in my system, standard action attacks are going to be much more potent (think Tome of Battle), as well there's going to be an emphasise on mobility, so the mobility penalties from Armour need to be offset by slightly better bonuses than we see in DnD.
In addition, I'm going to have a number of armour enchantments and feats that help to reduce penalties associated with armour, as well as boost their bonuses, and perhaps build some new ones.
Overall I know mine needs a lot more work and tweaking. But I gotta run now. I'll likely have more at some point once I get back from vacation.
See, it is so much fun running into these threads...I read through this and really enjoyed all of it. One of the first things I had to do in my system, mayebe one of the first changes, was to separate avoidance and protection. And I can honetly say that before my current campaing, we were using avoidance and protection (or AC and DR) as a primary basis for our system, as it always seems more realsitic an versatile. Pleased to see this topic, and I should have expected it with the level of vcerbal discourse I see on this site.
Speed in celtricia is totally tied to weight carried compared to weight possible. So the heavy armor weight them tremendously without speed based skills.
I also have to say based on Ish's earlier comment about more math that my game is much more math heavy than most, and admit that now.
So I do better in regards to the thread name (involving that realism word) than any designs to increase simplicty, though I struggle the same as anf GM with the 'realism vs playability' thing.
However, one of the problems of d20 is the lack of incrementalization you gain with percentiles. And one of the ways we dealt with the 'threat level' of criticals instead was the use of dividing dice in weapons and in armor.
So armors all have variable protection with a dividing die, as do weapons. Armors have variable protection, the same as weapon damage.
I'll add some for food for thought.
[spoiler=from my diffuse and disjointed thread]
Spells and missle weapons, and their proper use, definitely do help. But the way weapons (and everything) does damage, and the way protection is done, makes for an interesting game.
To maintain a potential of great lethality, yet not overly so, was a challenge. First of all, I did what many games had done, and I broke armor into avoidance and protection, and decided that anything that dealt with a character dealing with a blow that was going to hit something (armor, shield, a defensive weapon) dealt with protection, and slipping by all that was avoidance. But it still didn't quite give me the variability I needed. Daggers just could not ever touch anyone even in chainmail. The breakthrough came one day when I really got down to brass tacks and looked at the probablity curves I was trying to create. I wanted armor to have a range of protections, but more of a bell curve, while I wanted weapons to have a potential of lethality, but not every time, and the smaller the weapon, the lower the chance of a really lethal strike.
So what came out of it was to give both protection and damage a range, with a dividing die. Which allows you to really mess with the probablity curves.
I wanted almost all armor to have some protection, but to have a pretty good range. And I wanted the frequency distribution to group somewhat towards a bell-curve, but still with a bulge towards the low end and a big single tail. So the dividing die in armor is actaully the average of 2d6, which gives me my slightly taller bell in my curve. An example of a character with very light armor would be some guy in Hardened leather and padded silk, who would have a base protection of 14-23, divided by those 2d6. A guy in chain mail and padded silk would have a base protection of 22-31, with a divider, and a guy in Lammellar and padded silk would have 42-51 base protection, still with a divider.
Note : Note that none of these include the avoidance or any skills, for the sake of simplicity.
So our dude in the leather can protect up to 23 hits, he averages 6 protection, and his minimum is 3. Our guy in chain mail can protect up to 31, his average is 8 protection, and his minimum is 4 hits. Our tank can protect up to 51 hits, which is a ton. He averages 14 protection, but can protect as little as 7 on a couple of bad rolls. This gives even the medium armors the hopes of rolling a pair of ones or a one and a two, and protecting on a big damage hit. But it means that even the tank can get nailed if he rolls badly. And heavily armored tanks never get missed.
Now weapons I wanted something slightly different. I wanted a range of damage, but I wanted to curve to be a little less belled. I also came up with a neat mitigastion that allows me to not have the amount of damage being the only factor, but the bigger a weapon is, the smaller it's dividing dice. Note : Smaller weapons also are much faster. Sometime, a guy with a short sabre will get in 2-3 attacks for every attack of a guy with a bec-di-corbin, or something. This is great when you are fighting a lightly armored opponent with a low protection. However, it has been proved a zillion times that attacking 10 times and not getting through someones protection is not as good as one hit that does. It's all a ratio, both have their place.
so a Bank dagger might have 11-18 damage, with a d10 divider, a gladius might have 15-26 damage with a d8 divider, a broadsword might have 17-28 damage with a d6 divider, and double bladed broadaxe might do 22-37 dmage with a d4 divider. Behind the curtain a little bit, this means that with the dagger, you can do up 18 hits (before modifiers), and our guy in Lammellar averages 14 and can protect as little as 7. So if the guy with the dagger rolls a 1 or a 2 divider die, he has a hope of doing some damage to the tank. But it also means that there is only a 10% chance of doing decent damage, the gladius has a 12.5%, the broadsword 16.6%, and the axe 25%. Only huge, slow weapons have d5 or d4 dividers, they are rare. Giants generally have all d4 dividers, dragons have d3. Don't get hit by a dragon. A medium dragon bite is (55-70/d3)
The way the game has fallen out, and this is a gross generalization, is that a 1 or a 2 divider has a decent chance of doing some damage, anything else means you have to hope your opponent rolls a crappy protection. So the odds of getting 'decent' hit become 20% with a really small, d10 divider weapon, 25% with the d8 medium weapon, 33% with the good sized weapon, and 50% with those super slow, punishing weapons. [/spoiler]
Below .pdf was quickly done. Some of the armors listed below are specific magic versions. ANd Chickes skin armor is part of an old, old joke. This should still give a little idea.
File: 1184034737_392_FT15000_armor_basic.pdf (//../../e107_files/public/1184034737_392_FT15000_armor_basic.pdf)
Wow, the thread was resurrected.
Lately, I've just simplified things to Light, Medium, and Heavy. Materials change the cost and weight a bit, like the difference between steel shields and wooden shields.
I have to admit, part of the reason I have so many armor types is not becasue I really belive that there is a huge difference between them, so much as it is for my players, who love the little differences and idiosyncrasies.
And that's perfectly fine. I just don't have so many because there's only really so many different aspects for armor. Weapons have handedness, proficiency, damage type, damage die, crit range, crit multiplier, trip/disarm bonuses ... many things to make many weapons. Armor has proficiency, AC, and Max Dex; the other aspects of it aren't really balance issues (because a fighter would wear an armor that caused a -20 penalty if it gave tons of extra armor).