Quick Note: I am currently fine tuning a number of mechanical issues for my campaign setting. Once they have been dealt with, I will finally get around to posting it in detail, chapter by chapter. I will probably look into getting a web page made for it, because it will require that much. Please be patient with the amount of mechanical threads I will be starting in recent time; hopefully it will all be worth the effort.My setting's magic system is perhaps the largest change over conventional settings. Not only has it required an overhaul of spell descriptions and a conceptional redesign of my setting's spell-casters, it's also leaked it's influence into the most basic aspect of the game: ability scores.
The base idea of my magic system is that the world is composed of the five elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Void; as seen in Japanese, Greek, and Celtic belief). Because animals are of the world, they too are composed of these elements. A creature's mental and physical atributes are a direct reflection of the levels and concentrations of elemental energy within them. Each of the "physical" elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) have a physical and mental ability score associated with them; Void is its own ability score.
Air is tied to a creature's quickness and perceptiveness. Earth is tied to a creature's physical health and mental resilience. Fire is tied to a creature's strength of body and mind. Water is tied to a creature's flexability and mental capacity. Void is reflected in a creature's ability to go beyond their abilities; some call this luck, others see it correctly as the ability to realize that everything is connected.
Thus, the current ability scores simply aren't enough. Str is fire, dex is water and air, con is earth, int is water, wis is air and earth, and cha is fire. Luckily, dexterity and wisdom are currently a little overloaded in my opinion, and thus the core of the ability scores change to be the following:
Strength: The measure of a character's physical power. Your strength score determines the following:
- Bonus damage for melee and thrown weapon attacks. A character applies their strength penalty to damage dealt with a bow, and can apply a strength bonus to damage with a composite bow (up to the strength rating of the bow).
- The size of a weapon a character can wield without penalty (a medium character requires a 7 strength to wield a light weapon, an 11 to wield a one-handed weapon, and a 15 to wield a two-handed weapon; increase or decrease these numbers by four for every increase or decrease in size from medium). A character suffers a -2 penalty to hit when wielding a weapon they lack the requisite strength score to wield.
- A character's carrying and lifting capacities.
- Your Strength modifier is used for a number of special combat actions, such as grappling, tripping, overrunning, and bullrushing.
- X skills.
Dexterity: The measure of a character's flexability and hand-eye coordination. Your dexterity score determines the following:
- Attack rolls for both melee and ranged attacks.
- X skills.
Constitution: The measure of a character's health, endurance, and physical resilience. Your constitution score determines the following:
- Bonus hit points with each Hit Die.
- Total Wound Points.
- Fortitude Saves.
- Endurance checks.
- The Concentration skill.
Agility: The measure of a character's reflexes and speed. Your agility score determines the following:
- Armor Class, though this can be limited by your armor and encumbrance.
- Reflex Saving throws.
- Initiative checks.
- X skills.
Intelligence: The measure of a character's reasoning ability and ability to learn. Your intelligence score determines the following:
- The number of starting languages.
- Bonus skill points.
- X skills.
Wisdom: The measure of a character's instinct and mental resilence. Your wisdom score determines the following:
- Will saving throws.
- X skills.
Perception: The measure of a character's sensory accuity. Your perception score determines the following:
Charisma: The measure of a character's force of personality. Your charisma score determines the following:
Currently I am trying to decide if Perception and Charisma need abilities other than their skills. Also, I'm trying to decide exactly what skills will go to Agility (currently I am wanting to make Jump and Tumble tied to agility) and which skills exactly will go to Perception (definately Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive, but perhaps Survival, Search, and many others). I've been considering making Initiative part of perception and possibly adding in a speed bonus/penalty imposed by one's Agility score (maybe +5 feet per modifier, I think I could live with that). I could be fine with Perception and Charisma not having abilities other than their skills since their skills are the ones most called upon in most games; I would be happy with making a new saving throw for Perception (to counter illusions mostly), but that isn't required.
I know this is a big change, but I'd like help balancing these. I won't appreciate trying to be talked out of it, because it is quite necessary for my setting (it really makes my races work nicely; each demihuman gains a +4 bonus to one physical ability score, and a -2 to a physical and mental).
As a quick note, my setting's spellcasters use all four mental ability scores; each mental ability score is tied to a different element, and you use that score when casting that element.
Yes, move init over to perception. Dexterity seems like a dump stat for most characters here and the think that really comes to mind is how much dexterity affects the ability to hit your opponent in both ranged and melee combat. I always found it strange how strength was the sole stat to help you hit. However, this would mean redoing the way combat is effected by stats, which could end up as too much work. I'd certainly be interested in exploring the idea of finesse in combat, how about you?
I've been toying with a similar idea, but instead of full seperate abilities, I've been thinking about using the sub-abilities from Player's Option: Skills and Powers which was often called a DMs nightmare during its time(I on the other hand had a lot of fun with it).
For what you have, you do need to put actual non-skill abilities(preferably things having to do with combat) attached to them, otherwise they will quickly become dump stats.
I think it would be interesting to use Strength, Dexterity, and Perception all in effecting combat. I think Strength and Perception would work well with melee attac,s and Dexterity and Perception would work well with ranged attacks... Perhaps using and average of the modifiers... I haven't thought about it too much yet, but I think you're on to some good ideas here.
Well I have Dexterity being the only stat that adds to to-hit, thus I can't see it being a dump stat, especially since it has the most skills tied to it in the game (and with skills like Balance, that everyone has to make sometimes and a failed check can get you killed ...). Perception is a defensive stat like Constitution and Wisdom, while Dexterity is now an aggressive stat like Strength and Charisma.
But you do think initiave is more closely tied to your senses than your speed?
This could get very complicated.
Quote from: nastynateThis could get very complicated.
How so? Most CRPGs that don't run on D&D utilize 4 physical abilities: everquest and ragnarok come to mind immediately. At it's core, I've changed the physicals to this:
Str: Damage
Dex: To Hit
Con: HP
Agi: AC
Seems rather balanced to me. But please explain your aprehension. If it is anything other than "it's different" or "it will take some getting used to", I may need to hear it to avoid some issues down the road.
Thanks.
D&D is already a complicated game, and I think messing with the rules leads to issues, which are often unforseen. Nothing jumps out at me yet that could be problematic other than re-aligning the attributes assigned to skills, but who knows...
I think maybe giving each ability score two sub-scores like skills and powers did might be safer. It has some precadent, and doesn't force new ability scores into the game. Think of how many PrCs and feats will be effected by changing the ability scores...it's staggering.
Now maybe if you're running core only with just the PHB, and DMG...it might not be too hard, but when you start to bring in splat-books it can get messy. We don't have the play-testers that WotC has...and the pros miss stuff all the time.
I'd just be very thorough and very cautious, that's all.
having 12 sub scores wouldn't work for what my setting needs. My setting needs 4 physicals and 4 mentals because there are 4 elements and each element has it's influence on the body.
For example, my orcs are a race created by the Fire God. They gain a +4 bonus to strength, because strength is the physical atribute of fire, but they suffer a -2 penalty to dexterity (the physical of water, fire's opposite) and a -2 penalty to intelligence (the mental of water).
I know that I have a lot of work ahead of me, but I'm ready for that if it will benefit my setting. The good thing about it is that I don't actually have to change monsters, since their stats will still be compatable.
It's a cool idea. I just don't know if I'd dare to undertake it. I wish you much luck though.
I like the idea, but I probably would never use it myself. I think you're just making it the way it always should have been.
I think it's an interesting idea, and I like where things are assigned. One question, though: how heavily will the element/alignment tie be emphasized throughout the setting
About Elemental Focus in the setting: There will be different martial paths associated with each element; in fact, four of the five knight schools are related to the four "physical" elements. I'm currently deciding if I will have a priest and a sorcerer class, or just a sorcerer class, but either way all spellcasters will have to focus on an element in one way or another (sorcerers by virtue of their power, priests by virtue of the domains they choose; all domains are related to one element or another).
Lastly, I am still considering having a Chakra system in place. As a character gains levels, you will gain points to put into your five chakras (energy centers where elemental energy is focused within your body). Your chakra ranks will determine your caster level with spells of that element, and will be used as a prerequisite for some feats (power attack would require some amount of fire chakra for instance). Additionally, as your chakras increase, the ability scores related to your chakras also increase (this would replace the current method of ability score improval). Again, this is just an idea, I may or may not impliment it.
Lastly, the five main gods, the only gods who don't fit into the animistic nature of divinity in my setting, are elemental dragons who brought the world back to life after their mother destroyed it. All true dragons are related to an element, all pure giants are related to an element, and each of the four demihuman races are related to an element; this is because the five god dragons created these three races "in their image".
Does anyone have an idea for what Perception and Charisma could have? Because my world is animistic and I will be using the "spirit" subtype, I've been considering letting everyone have a "turning" type ability. Basically it would be like in literature when someone holds a cross up to a vampire; instead you would make a charisma+level check vs. their charisma+hd+turn resistance. If you succeed, and spend a standard action every round, they won't be able to approach you. To do this, you need an item that the particular spirit would fear, such as a holy symbol for undead, or a cold iron item (such as a horseshoe) for fey. A priest would be able to expend a turning attempt after successfully affecting the spirit to truely turn it.
Again, I can be persueded to use Initiative for Perception, but I'm still not convinced that Initiative is more a reflection of your senses or your reflexes.
Perception should have more to it to be interesting.
How come you don't have to change monsters? You'll have to assign them two extra scores right?
I will change the monsters slowly as needed; I'll work on the animals first (since they are familiars and animal companions), then the intelligent monsters of my setting (mainly dragons and giants). I'll eventually get to everything.
But in reality, the only thing that is really important about monsters is their combative stats. If someone happens to hit a monster for Agility damage, then they'll just take penalties to AC and Reflex and the Agility skills.
Eventually altering them will be a goal, but I'm only going to alter what monsters my setting will employ.
Do you have an idea for perception, other than initiative that is? Or were you putting your vote for initiative? The way I figure it, I could go both ways; perception has spot and listen, which can give you early warning and thus extra time to make an initiative check.
Here's an example. You're standing near a shelf and you nudge it, causing a vase to fall. But your quick reflexes allow you to turn and catch it before it falls. Now, did you see that it was falling, and thus react to it, or did you react without rationalizing it? Is this a function of your mental facalties (your senses) or a function of your physical quickness?
It's a tough decision. Since you can argue either way, perhaps you should let it be decided by what is more convenient mechanically. Which in this case means moving initiative to Perception IMO.
That's what it seems like to me. Then onto a slightly less difficult question: Exactly which skills will go into Agility and Perception?
Currently I want to place Jump and Tumble into Agility, and I definately know that Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot will be Perception. But there are a few other skills that could be moved to Perception.
What's all of your opinions?
*bump*
i like this thread.
concern: i dont really see the need to create these stats just as a way of re-organizing currently existing skills.
opinion: i understand that you are trying to create a specific sense of balance within your setting, but i dont think re-labeling currently existing skills is the best way.
i mean, obviously, you could just have 3 physical and 3 mental stats based on the current ability stats, which is a balance of some sorts, but you want to have 4 o make things 'fit'...
i understand, but i just think it over-complicates the game for the sake of a setting, and that just doesnt make sense to me.
I think there isnt enough difference between Dex an Agil, or Wis & Perc. ... it seems like the changes you're attemping to make are superfluous, because they don't actually anything to the game. Its just a matter of convienence for your setting's sake.
i like/respect how you're thinking.. ;) i just dont agree on the solution.
surely there is a bette way to create the sense of balance you're seeking, w/o making it significantly harder on the player.
Think of a marksman, or a fat hunter. They are coordinated, and steady with a shot, but they aren't necessarily agile and fast.
Sure, a high dex and a high agility run hand in hand, but so do a high con and a high strength.
I also like adjusting to hit to be based purely on Dex, as I have been considering switching to Armor as DR and splitting up AC and Damage makes sense.
Remember, currently Strength is a little more important for melee classes than any other ability score. That shouldn't be.
There's no other way to make the four elements representative of your physical and mental make up than to add the additional ability scores. My players like the idea, I'm just having a hard time picking which skills go to agility and perception.