Recently my creativity has become very focused on the rules of the game. I've written one article for the CBGuide, and I am working on a handful of new combat manuevers (Knock Back for one) and possible alterations to others (Bull Rush, Overrun, and Trip ... I'm looking at you). But in the interest of the community, I thought of something which might be fun.
Have you (or one of your players, if you DM) ever wanted your character to do something that wasn't covered by the rules? Something that seems simple enough physically to not require a feat to simply perform?
I'm sure this has happened to many gamers, and more rules oriented DMs prefer to have mechanics so they can feel they are running the game fairly. I'm not intending to open a story teller vs. mechanics DMing style debate, so please let us not go there.
So, are there any mechanics you would like to see made? Give me an example or a situation and I'll see if I can use the existing rules to create something managable. If not, I'll see if I can create something entirely from scratch.
Let me know what you'd like to see.
Choking people.
Pure and simple... grab the throat, crush the hyoid, watch 'em gasp and turn all kindsa pretty clors. I mean, it's so fun in re... I mean... violence is ABHORRENT.
Choking people is a difficult one; thanks! (not sarcastic, I'm serious).
The first way to simulate this is simply the grapple rules. If your grapple check is exceedingly higher than your foe's, you will be able to maintain the grapple and deal damage every round, while your foe will not be able to damage you in return. Sure, a few things may happen (your foot could get stepped on, or you could get elbowed), but by and large, if you have a larger grapple bonus, you're going to win.
At first level, your average warrior mook will have 4+con mod HP (lets say Con is their 2nd highest stat, so they have a 12 con and thus 5 hp, what with NPC default array being 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8). Your average first level PC warrior will deal 1d3+str (probably has a 14 str, so 1d3+2 for an average of 4 damage a round).
Thus, choking said target will only take 2 rounds, with a 3rd round for a coup de grace.
The suffocation rules don't need to be brought in, because choking is more about stopping blood flow than air flow (I believe, I could be wrong).
The only other thing I could see is possibly throwing in a power attack-esque rule for grapple, where you can take a penalty to your grapple check to increase your grapple damage.
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I'm pretty sure that wasn't satisfactory, but you said choking and not something more difficult like slitting throats or breaking necks.
The only other thing I can say is add in Critical Grapple checks. If you roll a 20 on a grapple check, your grapple check automatically succeeds (no matter your opponent's roll); if you roll a 1 on a grapple check, you automatically fail. Additionally, after a roll of 20, you and your opponent roll again; if your check is successful the second time, you deal double grapple damage.
This could represent establishing an especially painful grip, and would add together with a WP/VP system to simulate breaking necks or slitting throats.
But I ultimately think the grapple rules simulate choking well enough. Improved Grapple will make you even better, and Supreme Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) will boost your unarmed damage. Simple rules for a Garrote can be made as just drastically increasing your damage and giving you a nice bonus on your grapple check (I forget the actual Song and Silence rules).
Getting slightly more complicated, you could bring items into the mix. Having a chain weapon, be it a nunchaku, a spiked chain, or a flail, should make it easier to conduct a grapple (heck, even a rope would); it is simply harder to pull a rope off your neck than an arm. The weapon could increase your grapple damage, or simply deal weapon damage (I'd be weary of this, though, and I'd be more comfortable with a simple system of increasing unarmed damage by one step).
Not sure what else to say. Is that satisfactory, or do you think a new mechanic is really necessary. Sell me on it, tell me what you want to accomplish that you can't with the grapple rules.
Yeah, I was tempted to use suffocation rules on a pin (not quite sure yet how that would have worked) but this is pretty awesome. Thanks.
Suffocation on a pin is really simple. At low levels, a character can only pin when conducting a pin; there's simply nothing else the character can do. Since you can keep someone from speaking during a pin, I think it's pretty safe to say that with the proper equipment, or even without it, you could suffocate during a pin as well.
The problem is that it takes a long time for someone to die from suffication, at least as far as rounds of combat are concerned. Since the pinned opponent will most likely be struggling, they have a number of rounds equal to their constitution modifier before they have to start making fortitude saves. The only advantage to this over standard grapple damage is that the pinned foe has no chance of damaging you in return if you succeed your pin checks (where grappling would require you to not only succeed your offensive grapple checks, but also succeed the defensive grapple checks). I'm not a statistician, but I since the same modifiers are used, it's best to deal with less rolls than more rolls.
So yeah, just consider pinned to be the same as under water, if the pinner chooses. You're going to have to win on average 10 consecutive pins against your average human, so it's really not beneficial to do this.
Sleeper holds, though, would be conducted with feats, just like stunning fist.
rules for chars before 1st level? the idea behind it is your char just left home to start his life as X, Y, or Z, but you have to get to the accadamy first. on your way you can end up in encounters that give you xp, but your not training in X, Y, or Z yet, so me as Dm have probs at that point.
Good one. I'm curious what Xeviat will come up with. By the way, do you know the "0th-level rules" from DMG 3.0?
Túrin
that's the whole problem, i've read the DMG 3.0 and there aren't any, persay. the only rules they have is for mulitclassing at 1st level
That's what I was referring to. It might be used as a starting point.
good point.
Turin already knows me too well: I'd use the 3.0 zero level rules as well. Interestingly enough, I am trying to work 0 levels into normal level progression, creating abilities that a character only gets for their 1st class level and not when they multiclass. Such abilities would be like a class's +2 bonus to their high saves, weapon/armor proficiencies, and others.
I'll see what I can put together for a formal 0-level system. But reading over your example, I believe I have a different solution: change the commoner.
The D&D commoner is an NPC class. The problem is that there is no rules in the DMG to help a DM understand why one NPC remains a commoner and another NPC becomes an Expert or a Warrior. Another issue is with humanoids with more than 1 racial HD; what are their commoners?
The simple answer came to me when I was reading the Starwars rules. Commoner simply is a base human (or other race), and since humans have no racial hit dice, a base human has 0 HD (this works with the WP/VP system, since the base human still has wound points; but it would be fair to give a commoner a 1d4 HD in standard D&D, just to throw them a bone).
So, a "commoner" has a 1d4 HD, 0 BAB, 0 in all saves, no skill points, and no feats. You cannot level up as commoner, as it is weaker than a humanoid HD in every way.
I don't know how many XP you should have to earn to reach first, but 400 seems like a reasonable amount. Every time you earn 100 xp you gain 1x your class's skill points (you have 4x at first level, so this way you slowly gain your skill points). At 200 xp, you gain the 0 level benefit for your future class, and at 400 xp you gain the full benefits of 1st level.
Sound cool?
Ha, beat you to the punch! :P
Seriously though, good points. Since this is used for children and/or adults that have no fighting experience whatsoever, I'd suggest to just give them 1 hp (or possibly a 1d2 HD) rather than 1d4. Most ordinary people, I think, would be seriously hindered by any serious injury, which corresponds nicely to being disabled after only 1 hp of damage.
On another note, anyone have any idea why the 0th-level rules didn't appear in 3.5, while at the same time no suggestion whatsoever is given about what stats pre-class-level-characters (specifically children) should have?
Túrin
i have a prob with no skills, only because you may not be highly skilled, but you can cook and clean and such.
You don't need skill points for that. I mean, how many characters have skill points in Profession (cooking) and Profession (cleaning)?
Túrin
true, it's not like your trying to cook for the king or any thing
Yeah, cooking is covered by Craft, as you are making something, and crafts can be done untrained. There's no reason someone won't take 10 with a Craft (Cooking) check, and I think something simple like a sandwich would have a DC of 5 (you'd have to be very stupid to mess up meat between bread), while actual measured ingrediants would have a DC 10 (like making mac and cheese without instructions). Most skills can be used untrained though.
The reason I went with a 1d4 HD is because some people have higher con's than others. A close friend of mine rarely gets sick and never bruises, and while this is probably due to his years of martial arts training, I'm quite certain he was a tough little cookie as a child as well. Granting a 1d4 HD means someone with an 8 con will have 1 HP, a 10 will have 2, and it will go up from there.
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Turin has unintentionally made a request, so I'm going to put together my rules on children and adolecents. I'll post them soon.
Quote from: XeviatYeah, cooking is covered by Craft, as you are making something, and crafts can be done untrained. There's no reason someone won't take 10 with a Craft (Cooking) check, and I think something simple like a sandwich would have a DC of 5 (you'd have to be very stupid to mess up meat between bread), while actual measured ingrediants would have a DC 10 (like making mac and cheese without instructions). Most skills can be used untrained though.
Cook is a Profession, not a Craft.
You're right, the PHB does list cook as one of the Professions, but it then goes on to say that if the job is part of the service industry, then it is a Profession, and if it's part of the manufacturing industry, then it's a Craft.
A cook is manufacturing food, thus I deem it is a Craft. Like writing literature, cooking is an art form, and is taught at art schools just like any other form of art. Cooking takes creativity and knowledge, just like other art forms, thus cooking must require intelligence and not wisdom.
So, while I'm directly contradicting the PHB, I feel justified.
Quote from: XeviatYou're right, the PHB does list cook as one of the Professions, but it then goes on to say that if the job is part of the service industry, then it is a Profession, and if it's part of the manufacturing industry, then it's a Craft.
A cook is manufacturing food, thus I deem it is a Craft. Like writing literature, cooking is an art form, and is taught at art schools just like any other form of art. Cooking takes creativity and knowledge, just like other art forms, thus cooking must require intelligence and not wisdom.
So, while I'm directly contradicting the PHB, I feel justified.
A cook does not manufacture food, he prepares food. Farmers manufacture food.
And if it is art, then it should be a Perform check.
Uhg. No. That's like saying that a painter doesn't do a craft check because he doesn't make his paints. Farming is a profession, cooking is a craft and juggling is a performance, I don't care what the rules say. >_<
Making art is NOT a Perform check. I would say it's probably a Dex check or a Wis check... but NOT a Perform check.
Quote from: Table Limetom Just Pulled From His Arse[tr][th]Check Result[/th][th]Value[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Less than 5[/td][td]No value[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6-8[/td][td]1d6 cp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9-10[/td][td]2d6 cp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11-13[/td][td]3d6 cp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14-16[/td][td]3d6 sp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17-19[/td][td]4d6 sp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20-22[/td][td]5d6 sp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]23-25[/td][td]6d6 sp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]26-28[/td][td]6d6 gp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]29-31[/td][td]7d6 gp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]32-34[/td][td]8d6 gp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]35-37[/td][td]9d6 gp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]38-40[/td][td]9d6 pp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]41-43[/td][td]10d6 pp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]44-46[/td][td]11d6 pp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]47-49[/td][td]12d6 pp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]50-52[/td][td]12d6 pp[/td][/tr]
[tr][td colspan='2']ad infinitum[/td][/tr][/table]
My guess is that these could get much higher much quicker, but its midnight here; I want to sleep. You fix it.
Quote from: XeviatTurin has unintentionally made a request, so I'm going to put together my rules on children and adolecents. I'll post them soon.
Actually, didn't we just establish we could use the 0th-level rules for that? OTOH, I admit that this wouldn't work for really small children (say, those that haven't reached the size category of their parents yet), but a simple template could fix that (such as: size - 1, the appropriate Str, Dex and Con modifiers from the MM, and then perhaps a Wisdom penalty).
To clarify, my original comment was wondering about the fact that these rules didn't appear in 3.5 (while they did in 3.0) not actually wondering what these rules would be like (because we just established that for most relevant cases).
@ the Craft/Profession/Perform discussion : We already established in earlier discussions that the rules for this are crappy and unrealitic (though using the new rule that many people actually don't even have a level of commoner might fix that problem), so either make a new thread to fix that or get over it. ;)
Túrin
The Game of Thrones d20 has some nice rules for children. I'd use them if I wanted to play a child. Too bad I don't have the book. >_<
~blinks~ i didn't know rules where out there ~smiles~ my thought is that every one should have a level as commener or aristocrat, because that is how was they where raised. in some ways if forces the players to come up with a background for thier pcs, but in trade they can pick up skills or abilitys that aren't part of thier class or wheren't trained how to do.
some people just have a nack for some thing. a carver that didn't know he could work wood untill he tried one day and made a work of art.
Making art is a Craft check; Races of Stone, oddly enough, set the precidence with Craft DCs for novels, epics, music, and other forms of art. Perform means how well you can perform a specific piece of art, generally telling a story, playing a part in a play, or performing a piece of music or a song; Perform does not allow you to compose, craft does.
As for actual children, I use a system that's very similar to the Monster Manual's takes on young giants. A medium sized creature as a child is one size smaller (this is comparable to an elementary school child), suffers a -4 size penalty to strength, a +2 size bonus to dexterity, and a -2 age penalty to all physical ability scores and a -4 penalty to all mental ability scores; thus they have a -6 Str (children are weaker than adults, due to a lack of size and growth hormones), a -2 Con (children get sick more often than adults, though they do typically recover faster; not sure how to emulate that), a -4 Int (children haven't yet learned all the basics), a -4 Wis, and a -4 Cha.
A teenager of a medium sized race (for example, a middle school student, possibly an early highschool student), is the same size as the adult, and suffers a -2 age penalty to all mental ability scores.
Under normal circumstances, children and teens do not enter into classes; they remain "commoners". Certain circumstances, such as extensive education, can cause a child or a teen to enter into class levels early; for example, noble children might enter into the aristocrat class early. If a teen or a child enters into a class early, determine their skill points normally for their current Int (though when the age penalty goes away, they will retroactively regain skill points), except a child only recieves x1 skill points at first level and a teen only recieves x2 skill points at first level (these skill points will be regained when their age reaches full).
Children of different sized races might have different size adjustments. Anything smaller than medium should use what medium does. Large creatures, though, should have teens that are 1 size smaller and children that are 2 sizes smaller (we're not considering infants at all). I'm unsure what the others should be.
~hugs~ thank you so much