The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: IshmaylFirst and foremost, this forum is for site-sponsored contests. That means, no posting your "Who would win, Batman or Superman" contests here; direct those towards the Dragon's Den.

Let's set up some parameters: It's the modern-day, post-Crisis (all of 'em) Superman with regular powers and vulnerabilities, as well as the current Batman.

(And the fight in DKR doesn't count, being as that the modern Superman is NOT that much of a tool, that was an alternate future telling)

Batman vs. Superman. Two superheroes whose powers can be summed up as "Just Plain 1337ness."

I'd have to say Batman, if only because of the snazzy black uniform. In play, he'd probably utilize lead (to stop x-ray vision... Batman's all about the hiding) and some variety of kryptonite... probably in ray form. (kryptonite does get used like that, right? I could've sworn Metallo or someone did it. If anyone could reverse-engineer that trick, it's batman)

Also, consider if the conflict took place between their secret identities. Let's see... billionaire who practcally owns Gotham vs. a third rate (at best) journalist. Superman's sense of anything is fucked up any time the public hates him. It gets in his head.

Batman. 'Nuff said.

Totally spiderman. He's got the spider sense, the porportionate strength of a spider, and can outdodge any melee attacker. Wolverine's all melee, it doesn't matter if he's got those 12" claws that can cut thru anything, spiderman can just swing out of NOWHERE and slam him in the head, then bounce back out before wolverine can react. And if the first hit doesn't give wolverine a concussion thru his invisible adamantium skull, the fifth or sixth hit will. Hell, spiderman could just start dropping cars on him, until there's too big a pile for regenerating super-knife guy to climb out of. Really, it's no contest.

It would depend on how much planning was involved.  If both of them were suddenly infected with the 'spirit of adversariality' while within arms reach of each other, Superman would nail Batman faster than the finger-tip activation of a kryptonite ring.

But with an hour or so of planning, Batman would have the edge.  Heck, he beat Darkseid on his own home turf of New Apocalypse.  Of course, he had a mother box at the time, but still.

If Batman and Superman ever came down to a death dual, Hal Jordan would give them both the what-for.

Quote from: DeeLBut with an hour or so of planning, Batman would have the edge.  Heck, he beat Darkseid on his own home turf of New Apocalypse.  Of course, he had a mother box at the time, but still.

And Superman beat the snot out of Darkseid, simply because the big ol' 'seid was talking crap about Supergirl. He even pinned him to that wall full of dead gods for a while and returned to Earth unscathed.

He took in the Omega Effect like it was sunlight!

@Cymro: Yes, Hal is definitely a hardass. When you have the universe's most powerful weapon on your finger, though, you normally DO win these sorts of bouts.

on bats vs. supes, the question really isn't about whose weakness is easier to exploit: lets face it, kryptonite is just as common as villianous chicks with killer bodies in the DCU. hell, even if you only count the villianous chicks with literal catsuits, it's still fairly even.

with that as a moot point, pretty much all that's left is the fact that batman is human, and superman ain't. i know i'm going to be crucified for not taking an opportunity to figure out how [ insert any character here ] would be able to take down superman, but i think the fact of this matter is that bane was a near-fatal challenge for bats. all bane has is strength, and even then it's not as much as superman.


thor vs. superman, on the other hand, is a completely different issue. weak against magic, y'say? does a divinely enchanted hammer count as "magic"? here, let's check that out:

*SMASH*

apparently it does....

when it comes to Superman v Batman, the question really isn't who would win in a drag out fight. The question, rather, is which happens first: Superman gets to Batman, or Batman gets some kryptonite.

I'd have to say that if Supes went all out, Batman wouldn't have much of a chance. I mean, Batman wouldn't have time to react before he was turned into a cloud of superheated steam by by Supes' heatvision. Hell, Supes could just fly through the Batcave and collapse it on Batman, and then if somehow Bats survived, Supes would notice thanks to X-Ray vision, and use heatvision to vaporize him. Although, If I recall correctly Batman and Luthor both have easy access to Kryptonite.

Also, Darksied has been shat on since the end of New Gods... He's a freaking God... And yet all these little mortals seem to thwart him...  Grrr...  

Quote from: Xathan, the Archbishop of Cabbagewhen it comes to Superman v Batman, the question really isn't who would win in a drag out fight. The question, rather, is which happens first: Superman gets to Batman, or Batman gets some kryptonite.

true; i must conceed to that point. remind me again: which one has superspeed?

seriously, that logic can be applied to any comic character or team. it would work if you replaced all instances of "batman" with "the power pack".

I would like to remind everyone that Batman is the master strategist-- he has probably thought of this contingency. I mean, he had a giant frickin' satellite to monitor his fellow heroes, you don't think he has, say, teleportation device to a lead-lined room with a kryptonite stash inside? It just seems that he would have a plan to take Supes out, in case the big blue went rogue-- the whole reason Supes trusted him with that kryptonite ring to begin with.

On the one hand, Supes frequently only loses cause he lets people win. He is not willing to end it. If he decided to kill every one, maybbe he could (think about the Red Son Elseworlds story). The thing is, it depends on who make the first move. If Bats plans and then goes after supes, supes is screwed. It's possible supes could strike first, but even then bats likely has contingencies in place for the evnet (supe goes rogue and the world is blanketed in red sun radiation or kryptonite rays or one of the many other things that hurt him. MAybe bats implanted a sealed kryptonite charge inside supes in one of the times supes was hurt that is set to go off if he tries to attack bats).

As for supes vs thor? supes is sooo dead. any magic guy could beat him prolly. Doom anyone ? (doom is not only magic, but a rich brilliant scientist. he could synthesize kryptonite too).

Speaking of Doom (the greatest villain alive along with luthor since they are the only two to really succeed - magneto is close to the awesome list too) Doom vs Batman is a fight i would really love to see. I think Doom could even take down Bats.

Yes i said it. Doom could take down Batman.

Tough, Superstrong, Brilliant stategist, owns a country, wicked scientist, and powerful sorceror - Doom's got it all.

Also, because the thread title made me think of it i have to bring this up.

 url (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/285267)

watch this everybody

Quote from: ~Tilde~Yes i said it. Doom could take down Batman.

Tough, Superstrong, Brilliant stategist, owns a country, wicked scientist, and powerful sorceror - Doom's got it all.

And he knows it. Doom's biggest weakness is his awareness of how badass he is-- and how arrogant it has made him. Batman would pick up on Doom's crushing ego and use it against him-- something that many others with lesser power of done to thwart the ruler of Latveria.

As for Red Son, I loved that story. But I don't normally try and compare Elseworlds power levels to "mainstream" levels, if nothing else than to stick mostly to "canon" interpretations.

Unfortunately Superman would probably win, which is what makes him suck. Y'see, there's no tension with Superman, cause he's.. well... super..

It's boring, cause he can do pretty much ANYTHING better than anyone else.

Batman on the other hand, rocks, cause he's just some really clever, athletic guy with martial arts skillz.

And he gets PUNISHED a lot of the time, which is good, cause you're actually like OMFG HOW THE HEL IS HE GONNA GET OUT OF THIS ONE!

Plus, image wise, he shits all over Superman.

Yeah, Batman owns. Only, Superman would win. But Batman would look really cool while losing, and like... just be better while losing.

Quote from: Captain ObviousSpeaking of Doom (the greatest villain alive along with luthor since they are the only two to really succeed - magneto is close to the awesome list too) Doom vs Batman is a fight i would really love to see. I think Doom could even take down Bats.

Yes i said it. Doom could take down Batman.

Tough, Superstrong, Brilliant stategist, owns a country, wicked scientist, and powerful sorceror - Doom's got it all.

Heh, there was an 8-bit theatre comic along these lines, unfortunately I don't remember which so I can't link to it.

QuoteYeah, Batman owns. Only, Superman would win. But Batman would look really cool while losing, and like... just be better while losing.

Yeah... honestly, if Batman becomes the guy that can Beat Anyone... With PREP TIME(tm)! then he ceases to be an interesting character. :P

Quote from: Red MageBatman. he keeps doing it over and over again, how many more examples do you need?

Dr. Doom vs. Batman Part 1[/url]
Part Deux (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018)

Thanks Darkxarth, that's it.

Yup, it took me ten minutes of searching to find, but I got it.  I love 8-Bit Theater.

WooHoo. Doom FTW yo. They ended up with the right answer.

Quote from: Off-Topic Green Lantern RantOn that note, when are they finally going to have a Hal Jordan cameo on Smallville? I mean, seriously, they have a multi-week story arc featuring freakin' pansy-ass Green Arrow, but they can't have just one appearance by Green [i/]Lantern[/i]! What's up with that? A Green Lantern is an intergalactic cop. Clark Kent is in the middle of a battle against a horde of intergalactic criminals that escaped from the Phantom Zone. How hard is this one to figure out?

They could even declare that one of the escaped criminals is a rogue Green Lantern, for cryin' out loud. And it's not as though Smallville hasn't introduced the conecept of Kryptonian technology that just happens to thematically resemble properties similar to those of Hal Jordan's power ring. And incidentally, Green Arrow - who already appears regularly on Smallville, mind you - was Green Lantern's sidekick at one point in time.

Hello, Smallville writers! How can you have gone this long without having Hal Jordan appear on your show?[/spoiler]
But getting back to Batman vs. Superman, the fight wouldn't be as straightforward as everyone assumes.

Firstly, while everyone backing Batman assumes that Batman would defeat Superman with kryptonite, I beg to disagree. Superman is also vulnerable to magic, and Batman is both aware that magic exists and aware that it is more versatile than a rock whose two primary properies are glowing and F-ing with Superman.

Secondly, Batman is paranoid, especially when it comes to alien and metahuman heroes. While it may not be spelled out in any given issue of any given comic, I don't think its safe to discount the fact that Batman may have added magical wards to his person, his gear, and his lair.

However, we must thirdly recognize that Batman would likely be unwilling to inplement any measures that would actively interfere with Superman's powers prior to Superman going rogue. Batman reluctantly accepts that the world needs other heroes, and that he can't just go around pre-emptively curtailing their powers just because he's paranoid.

And as others have already pointed out, Superman has super-speed, and thus can act rather fast once he goes rogue.

So here's my take on the battle between Batman and Superman: Despite Batman's superior badassitude, Superman flies in obliterates Batman without too much trouble. However, despite Superman's awesome destructive power, Batman ultimately survives by virtue of magical wards that can counteract the effects of Kryptonian powers, or some other, similar defense. Though incapicitated - possibly during a harrowing and painful process of resurrection - Batman survives the initial battle. Later, when all hope seems lost, Batman returns for the rematch. And from that point forward, Batman owns Superman. Every rematch belongs to Batman, no contest.

(All of the above is operating under the assumption that Batman is fighting Superman because Superman has gone rogue. If, on the other hand, Batman goes rogue, then Batman wins, no contest. Only some alliance of powerful heroes and/or villains could overcome Batman's resourcefulness, should Batman turn villainous and decide to pre-emptively take out his rivals.)

Quote from: Epic MeepoHowever, we must thirdly recognize that Batman would likely be unwilling to inplement any measures that would actively interfere with Superman's powers prior to Superman going rogue. Batman reluctantly accepts that the world needs other heroes, and that he can't just go around pre-emptively curtailing their powers just because he's paranoid.

And as others have already pointed out, Superman has super-speed, and thus can act rather fast once he goes rogue.[/quote]

Which Bats has probably taken account for. Otherwise, I agree with your assertions.

here's my take on the fight, second-by-second:

second 1: supes goes rogue.
second 2: batman feels a pain in his back. he also dies.
second 3: superman enjoys a margarita after a job well done.

Quote from: Elven DoritosRemember that huge-ass satellite he built in outer space? "Brother Eye"? That was a pretty pre-emptive measure. He also had those specialized directives designed to kill the other Leaguers back in that one JLA arc... and he probably has plenty of contingency plans.

QuoteAnd as others have already pointed out, Superman has super-speed, and thus can act rather fast once he goes rogue.

Even computer-operated contingencies are restricted to the speed of light, since they have to detect a threat before they can respond. That means there are really only two ways to stop someone attacking you at or near the speed of light: 1) Take away their speed before they decide to attack you or 2) have a contingency that allows you to survive their first strike. (Mind-reading, supernatural precognitive powers, and time travel also work, but those are among the few resources that Batman doesn't seem to exploit on a regular basis.)

I think Batman would choose the second option in preference to the first. He wouldn't risk accidentally cutting off the powers of a non-rogue superhero when he could instead just put in place protections that allow him to recover from the full-strength effects of those powers. That is my reasoning for a lack of contingencies that eliminate the effects of super-speed before Superman could act.

Personally, I think Superman would annihilate Batman.  I know I posted a quote from Red Mage that said otherwise, but that was his opinion, not mine.  I mean, Superman can move fast, REAL fast.  And, if it looks like he's losing, all he has to do is fly into space and hideout for a while.  It'll take Batman a few minutes to hop in the Bat-Space Shuttle and take off into space, by which time Superman is long gone.  Then, whenever Superman is ready, he hunts Batman down like a mouse.

Quote from: DarkxarthPersonally, I think Superman would annihilate Batman.  I know I posted a quote from Red Mage that said otherwise, but that was his opinion, not mine.  I mean, Superman can move fast, REAL fast.  And, if it looks like he's losing, all he has to do is fly into space and hideout for a while.  It'll take Batman a few minutes to hop in the Bat-Space Shuttle and take off into space, by which time Superman is long gone.  Then, whenever Superman is ready, he hunts Batman down like a mouse.

Your saying more time benefits *Superman*? Bats would never launch into space to deal with Superman, he'd launch missles that are programmed to track Kryptonian DNA, etc. "Master Strategy" =/= battling a god without using a few tricks.

Quote from: DarkxarthIt'll take Batman a few minutes to hop in the Bat-Space Shuttle and take off into space, by which time Superman is long gone.  Then, whenever Superman is ready, he hunts Batman down like a mouse.

But if Superman is running away and coming back later, that gives time for Batman to plan Superman-specific countermeasures. That's the exact scenario in which Batman has a clear advantage over Superman. Superman can only defeat Batman by hitting him hard and hitting him fast, before Batman knows what's coming.

EDIT: Also, if Superman spends all of his time in space, hiding from Batman, then Batman has won the fight because Batman owns the Earth, at least where Superman in concerned.

I think I'd agree to both the "Batman comes back." scenario AND the assertion that a Rogue Batman pwns first time around. Because no one sees it coming until it's too late.

Because Supes might have x-ray vision, but he doesn't have detect alignment.

Quote from: /= battling a god without using a few tricks.[/quotemaking stuff up[/i]. Missiles that can track kryptonian DNA? That can fly faster than superman?? Sure, he had them in Dark Knight Returns. and they did, like, okay. chasing a superman that had just been hit by a nuke. If we assume superman has been hit by a nuke before the fight, and batman had several weeks preptime to build his anti-superman-missiles and anti-superman suit, sure, he'll win. ;)

Well, uh, while he's in space... umm... ok.  I didn't think my comment through very well.  Still, I just can't believe that Batman, a regular person (compared to Superman), could ever beat the god-like power of Superman...

Quote from: beejazzBecause Supes might have x-ray vision, but he doesn't have detect alignment.

don't give DC any ideas.....

by the way, wolverine would hand it to batman, too. strategic contingency planning means nothing against a beast with indestructible claws, a regenerative factor that renders him nigh-immortal, and a complete disregard for holding back in a fight.

'nuff said.

edit- @darkxarth: you can? i can't.

Won't like, Bat-Gas knock out Wolverine?  Or Bat-Knockout Darts?  That would put the fight pretty squarely with Batman.  Granted, he wouldn't have long to contain Wolverine, but surely even a few minutes would give Batman enough time to put Wolverine in some sort of Bat-Stasis chamber, where he can poison him, disintegrate him, etc.

Quote from: brainface

Quote from: /= battling a god without using a few tricks.[/quotemaking stuff up[/i].

Yes, it's really far-fetched to think that the dude who, and I can't stress this enough, built a GIANT FREAKING SATELLITE that CONVERTED MANY OF THE WORLD'S HUMANS INTO CAPE-KILLING CYBORGS, could ever, EVER, have Superman-specific weaponry like that.

Remember! These are comics, meaning that people are making it up either way.

Quote from: DarkxarthWon't like, Bat-Gas knock out Wolverine?  Or Bat-Knockout Darts?  That would put the fight pretty squarely with Batman.  Granted, he wouldn't have long to contain Wolverine, but surely even a few minutes would give Batman enough time to put Wolverine in some sort of Bat-Stasis chamber, where he can poison him, disintegrate him, etc.

with wolvie's healing factor, it'd hit him like chamomile tea.

even if the KO (whatever) did work, odds are that wolverine would recover in time to claw his way out of said stasis-chamber.


edit- i wonder how chamomile tea would affect wolverine....

Quoteby the way, wolverine would hand it to batman, too. strategic contingency planning means nothing against a beast with indestructible claws, a regenerative factor that renders him nigh-immortal, and a complete disregard for holding back in a fight.

anti-wolverine[/i] missiles. heck, if he can do it for superman, he can do it for anyone! (i guess?)

QuoteYes, it's really far-fetched to think that the dude who, and I can't stress this enough, built a GIANT FREAKING SATELLITE that CONVERTED MANY OF THE WORLD'S HUMANS INTO CAPE-KILLING CYBORGS, could ever, EVER, have Superman-specific weaponry like that.

that sounds like a horrifically stupid comic ;) what is he, Lex Luthor now? that's terrible!

Quote from: sdragon1984with wolvie's healing factor, it'd hit him like chamomile tea.

even if the KO (whatever) did work, odds are that wolverine would recover in time to claw his way out of said stasis-chamber.


edit- i wonder how chamomile tea would affect wolverine....

Probably badly.  He doesn't seem like the tea type, to me.

Ok, so his Bat-Knockout Darts only slowed Wolverine down, now Batman swings into action with his Bat-Bola, pinning Wolverine's arms to his sides.  Unless I'm missing something, Wolverine is not super-strong, a couple of steel cables should keep him occupied long enough for Batman to do whatever is necessary to annihilate Wolverine.

Quote from: brainfaceOh, i'm sure he'd just make anti-wolverine missiles. heck, if he can do it for superman, he can do it for anyone! (i guess?

Actually, judging from how well Nitro's powers have worked on Wolvie, I'd say missles are out of the question. Just throw him in a volcano or something, problem solved.

In a slightly unrelated note, if Superman is indestructible by normal things like knives and such, how does he cut his hair or trim his fingernails?

Quote from: DarkxarthIn a slightly unrelated note, if Superman is indestructible by normal things like knives and such, how does he cut his hair or trim his fingernails?

Now we're getting into the physics of comics-- always a touchy area.

I believe that the accepted answer is that he emits an intangible, psychic "force-field" of sorts-- check Wikipedia on that.

Quote from: Darkxarth

Quote from: sdragon1984with wolvie's healing factor, it'd hit him like chamomile tea.

even if the KO (whatever) did work, odds are that wolverine would recover in time to claw his way out of said stasis-chamber.


edit- i wonder how chamomile tea would affect wolverine....

Probably badly.  He doesn't seem like the tea type, to me.

Ok, so his Bat-Knockout Darts only slowed Wolverine down, now Batman swings into action with his Bat-Bola, pinning Wolverine's arms to his sides.  Unless I'm missing something, Wolverine is not super-strong, a couple of steel cables should keep him occupied long enough for Batman to do whatever is necessary to annihilate Wolverine.

remember: wolverine doesn't mind ignoring pain, if he has enough reason (say, his very life). if he strains hard enough, he can get out of the cables and only have them cut through his flesh and maybe a couple centimeters of muscle. he's ripped all the meat off his wrists and hands to get out of adamentium manacles before, he can handle steel cables.

Quote from: Elven Doritos

Quote from: DarkxarthIn a slightly unrelated note, if Superman is indestructible by normal things like knives and such, how does he cut his hair or trim his fingernails?

Now we're getting into the physics of comics-- always a touchy area.

I believe that the accepted answer is that he emits an intangible, psychic "force-field" of sorts-- check Wikipedia on that.

he uses kryptonian steel from the spaceship that carried him as an infant, to relfect his heat-vision at just the right angle for haircuts, shaves, or presumabley cutting his nails.

official answer.

edit- the force-field thing was the official answer to why pre-crisis superman's cotume never got damaged. it didn't reach far enough to protect his cape, however.

So he's vulnerable to his own heat vision?  Well crap, all Batman needs is a Kryptonian Steel shield (which he could probably get as easily as Kryptonite, if not easier) and to be able to trick Superman into blasting him with heat vision and it's over...

superman might not be the master strategist batman is, but he's still no dummy, and i doubt he'd fall for something like that.

that said, assuming batman could trick him like that, we don't know just how effective heat-vision is on superman. i mean, sure, i can cut his hair and nails, but can it deal a mortal blow?

not to mention, the only kryptonian steel on earth is supermans spaceship (in the fortress of solitude), and bats would have to re-work that into the shield. this is getting into the "if batman had enough time to plan" realm, which is shot down (figuratively and literally) by supermans superspeed.

Ack!  That's why I don't usually get involved in discussions like this, they make my brain hurt without accomplishing anything.

For those choosing Batman over Superman, what about this match-up: Batman vs. General Zod?

I would argue that Zod is more dangerous than Superman when not crippled by his obsession with humiliating and subjugating the House of El. Since that wouldn't be a factor in a battle against the Dark Knight, Zod would be a tougher match for Batman.

I typically stay out of Bats v. Supers debates but this is too good to pass up...

http://www.biggercheese.com/

they BOTH win!

didn't we already know that about batman, though?

jeez, this thread makes me look like i hate batman....

Quote from: sdragon1984didn't we already know that about batman, though?

jeez, this thread makes me look like i hate batman....

Bat-hater.

End of debate:

(http://applegeeks.com/comics/issue42.jpg)