The Campaign Builder's Guild

We all know about magic and how its used in the D&D world but i would like to discuss the origins of Arcane and Divine magic as well as Psionics.

My other thread Origins of the various creatures and races of D&D has prompted me to think about how and why all the D&D creatures exist, now ive been thinking (something i seem to do too often) about how and why arcane and divine magic, as well as psionics exists.

Now Divine magic would be easily enough explained by saying the Gods grant their followers the ability to cast magic on the gods behalf, but why can dragons cast divine spells? eg: Red Dragon.
Psionics can exist because a race began to develop mentally instead of physically, and therefor unlocked a part of the brain that would allow them to alter themselves in some way, but i cannot think as to how a psion can alter the things around him/her self (I know i should know but at the moment i can think of one)
So that leaves Arcane magic, i have no idea as to why this should exist in the first place, what started the magic?, how does it exist still?, how did anyone (namely Wizards) learn how to use it if no one knew it existed in the first place?

What stopped the first people that learnt the magic/Psionics from taking over the world to begin with, what prevents them from advancing to a higher level of living (eg: High magic medievil settings)? Why doesnt everyone know how to wield magic?

So what are your views on the origins of magic and psionics?

Note: I apologise if my thoughts seem fragmented and that i may contradict myself.

What are my views on the origins of magic and psionics?

Most things about magic and psionics are going to be setting-specific.  That being said:

Divine magic, quite simply as Kalin pointed out, is granted to mortals by their faith (since some clerics choose not to have a patron) or their patron.  In the case of the deities themselves, divinity itself grants them their spells.  Some outsiders, as exemplars of their alignment, gain divine spells in a similar nature to deities, except that their inherent nature as an alignment (rather than inherent nature as divine) grants them the ability to bend reality to their whim (i.e. cast magic).  By this principle, some elementals too should be able to cast divine spells, as they are "living" elements, and they should be able to bend reality to their whim.  

As a point of clarification, all dragons cast spells as sorcerers, red dragons simply gain access to cleric and domain spells.

Psioincs use their mind to bend reality to their whim, in what I would consider to be a similar fashion to deities.  They are their own power supply (as shown in power points and ability burn).  I know many people in real life who claim to be psionic, and studying some of the theories behind real world psychic phenomenae, some of it is quite plausible.  Focus seems to be the main requirement for most psionic tasks.  You must be able to focus your mind in such a way that others cannot.  

The general D&D origin is the illithid.  However, they did not teach it to other beings, such as the githyanki and githzerai, those beings spontaneously developed it after exposure.  I would say that some people in the D&D world are simply able to do things with their minds at a totally different level.  Some develop spontaneously, others need a little push.

Arcane magic I guess could be veiwed as a mortal imitation of the divinities.  The gods need not worship anyone to gain power, so why should mortals?  Reading into it, arcane magic comes from rituals and components.  Instead of inherently being able to bend reality, like divine magic or psioincs, arcanists learn "tricks" to bend reality, to extensive levels.  

I would say arcane magic came about from the fey or dragons, perhaps other creatures, who taught it to the other races, but most importantly, in broad D&D terms, the elves.  It first existed inherently in beings who were fully mortal, and then mortals who couldn't do it learned, partly from the beings who could do it inherently, and partly on their own, how to cast spells.

What prevented people who wield magic/psioincs from taking over the world?  Well first of all, the deities have done a pretty good job at it.  Secondly, in beings that cannot produce magical and psionic effect inherently, it takes a long time to gain powers of some note.  Coupled with the low life expectancy in most settings, beings simply cannot gain sufficient power to take over the world.  They'd need help.  And even with help, they're bound to be opposed by someone, including those darned "adventurers".

Why don't they advance their technological/magical level? Equilibrium.  Reality likes to stay in balance.  It does things to correct said balance when it's broken.  

Take the Netherese Archmage Karsus.  He tried to steal the divine power of the goddess of magic through a spell he called Avatar, and ended up nearly destroying magic as a whole.  His spell ultimately failed, but not before causing widespread harm to the Weave (the magical "foundations" of the Forgotten Realms), forcing Mystryl to sacrifice her own life, thus ending magic as a whole, and he himself being turned into a red sandstone butte.  A later incarnation of Mystryl restored magic back to its original state, thus restoring the balance Karsus tried to upset.

I could give examples for other settings as well, but I think Karsus' Folly shows my point well enough.

Why doesn't everyone know how to wield magic?  Simply put, its an effort that not everyone can put forth in a standard D&D setting.  Magic that beings must learn take years to master, and if you're a dirt farmer, you're going to need your sons and daughters farming dirt with you, not going off with some bearded kook to learn this "magic" gobshite.  

Some times, there are exceptions.  Dragonmarks from Eberron, I believe, allow a being who possesses them to gain inherent usage of magic.

The ancient Imaskari from the Forgotten Realms setting, are a human ethnicity that were so magically apt they developed a natural talent for magic, and almost every one of them knew at least a few spells.  After they were forced to live in the Underdark, they became the Deep Imaskari, and every single one of the isolationist Deep Imaskari has learned magic, to the exclusion the martial arts.

These ideas are mostly Vilydunn-based:

The way I envision it, Divine Magic is the force by which people express themselves and their faiths. It isn't given to them by the higher powers that they believe in (though belief in such a power certainly makes the magic easier to channel), but rather it is found within the person when they come to terms with themselves and are no longer unsure of what they believe (even when what they believe is wrong).

Psionics is not really anything supernatural (though it functions as such). It is the result of a highly trained mind functioning in a radically different mindset and at a different level than what is considered 'normal'. It is through this unusual mindset that a psion, psychic warrior, or soulknife makes their powers work.

Arcane Magic is the most mysterious magic and the most diverse. It is believed to originally be a secret of the angels that demonic forces discovered and eventually taught a corrupted version of to mortals. From the 'basic' version that was taught, many different subtypes of arcane magic have arisen through the ages, since it is a magic that can be made, researched, and created. Some types were created based on beliefs and ideals, others based on need, and others still were only given by others.

Divine Magic: Like others have said, it's pretty straightforward--From the Gods (Or in my campaign, from The One God)
Psionics:  Expanded mental capacity.  The mind has the potential to do all kinds of things, most people simlply don't realize its full potential.
Arcane Magic: In my campaign, what is referred to as Arcane Magic is a kind of energy that  infuses the world.  In the beginning, before the world took shape, there was energy (magic) and there was matter.  The energy was drawn inward pulling matter with it, forming it into a sphere that became the world, magical energy trapped inside the matter gave it life and causes otherwise inexplicable events to be possible.  In areas where there is a pocket of magical energy close to the surface, it manipulates the creatures around it, which gave rise to some of the races of the world, as well as the first sorcerers.  When it was realized that sorcerers could manipulate magical energy within the earth, those without the natural gift began to research and attempt to mimic their gift, giving rise to wizards.

the way i look at it the way it is today (kinda).

Divine magic: you have to send every waking moment in service to your god/goddess and for that they choose to help you help others. except when fighting the oposit your on your own.

Psionics: a sharpened mind is as dangerous as a sharpened sword. you have to focus and ask the world to bend to your will.

Arcane magic: i slowly scrach at the layers and search for the meanning and the inner workings of the universe. i learned from my family and others the can sence, touch and use the the forces of natcher and the univers. once you know how and why it works and how it can be altered, you can do any thing.

 

QuoteWhat stopped the first people that learnt the magic/Psionics from taking over the world to begin with, what prevents them from advancing to a higher level of living (eg: High magic medievil settings)?

the universe will allow nugges, but not pushes. large pushes take a lot out of you.

 

QuoteWhy doesnt everyone know how to wield magic?

it's a talent like singing, wookworking, ect.

Quote from: shadowlsArcane magic: i slowly scrach at the layers and search for the meanning and the inner workings of the universe. i learned from my family and others the can sence, touch and use the the forces of natcher and the univers. once you know how and why it works and how it can be altered, you can do any thing.

This is actually how alchemists works in my campaign.  You use experiments and procedures to attempt to understand the secrets of the universe.  The more you come to understand, the more you can do.

You all know my position: Magic exists because humans broke the universe.

Quote from: beejazzYou all know my position: Magic exists because humans broke the universe.

Humans break everything.  It's in their nature.

Quote from: beejazzYou all know my position: Magic exists because humans broke the universe.

Gremlins broke it.

I recently went over this ground, so it's kind of fresh in my mind.  I was wondering why sorcerers could cast spells through being charismatic, or bards could cast spells through being melodic.  And why it was that a spell like Hold Person had exactly the same stats if granted by a god to his cleric, or if researched in a library by a wizard, or achieved by a sorcerer in his meditations, or by a butler in the dining room with a candlestick.

My own solution, applicable in my own setting only, is that spell magic is like pact magic in that a spell is a kind of transaction - each spell has a kind of spirit to it that wants to be real.  The only way it can be made real, to take part in existence, is to be cast.  So when a spell-caster thinks about what spell he wants in the first place, the spell-spirit - called a veritige - assists in being part of the spellcasters formula, whether by providing a wizard with an intellectual inspiration, or by being attracted by a sorcerers mystically attuned force of personality, or by the momentary beauty of a bards song.  In this scheme, think of the gods as middlemen, ensuring that their clerics get direct contact with the veritiges they need.  

When the spell-caster is preparing that spell to be cast at the beginning of the day, that's like writing a kind of contract.  The veritige will do what the spell-caster requires of the spell, and in return will get to exist.

This also neatly ties up the question of why some spells are available on some spellcasters spell lists, but not on others.  Some veritiges may simply be more selective than others.  It may be that some - like healing veritiges - are now in such direct service to the gods that they will not cut deals with people who have no direct connection therewith.

Things like psionics and incarnum bypass this transactional form of magic because they represent the wonder-worker producing a supernatural effect by personal supernatural skill.

Truenaming is in a sense the most precise form of magic, because Truespeech is the language of the contract itself; in a way, every utterance of a truenamer is a different contract with reality.

How's that?

Quote from: beejazzYou all know my position: Magic exists because humans broke the universe.

how so? could you expand on that a little?

In Dystopia, magic works because humanity is in the process of breaking the universe.

I've given up trying to explain it in any form that is both succinct and compehensive, but it basically depends on the paradoxically recursive relationship between matter and consciousness.  Namely:

Consciousness, mind and perception emerged from matter, but the entire verifiable universe is contained empirically within the perceptions of conscious entities.  Thus, matter both causes mind, and is caused by mind, in a bewildering ontological paradox without end.

Thaumatology (magic), then, involves exerting one's influence over matter through visualisation in the consciousness, which causes the submissive physical reality (the one within the mind) to alter, subsequently manifesting as a change in dominant physical reality (the one containing the mind), as the two physical realms are not in fact distinct from one another.  There is a successive heirarchy of realities (physical and mental in continuous alternation), and through comprehension of each reality one ascends towards the Conceptual Singularity, the everything/nothing paradox that defines all of reality.  However, counterintuitively, they are simultaneously all the same reality (even the mind/matter distinction is erroneous, as both are simultaneous constructs of each other and therefore the same thing, but being without substantive origin, not an actual thing at all!).

In short, it's turtles all the way down.

As physicists depend on physical law, thaumatologists depend on mental law (nothing to do with psychology), which intersects physical law and therefore allows for the two to influence each other.

Pseudoscience for the win!

Magic just is. No different from, say, physics.

Quote from: Salacious AngelIn Dystopia, magic works because humanity is in the process of breaking the universe.

I've given up trying to explain it in any form that is both succinct and compehensive, but it basically depends on the paradoxically recursive relationship between matter and consciousness.  Namely:

Consciousness, mind and perception emerged from matter, but the entire verifiable universe is contained empirically within the perceptions of conscious entities.  Thus, matter both causes mind, and is caused by mind, in a bewildering ontological paradox without end.

Thaumatology (magic), then, involves exerting one's influence over matter through visualisation in the consciousness, which causes the submissive physical reality (the one within the mind) to alter, subsequently manifesting as a change in dominant physical reality (the one containing the mind), as the two physical realms are not in fact distinct from one another.  There is a successive heirarchy of realities (physical and mental in continuous alternation), and through comprehension of each reality one ascends towards the Conceptual Singularity, the everything/nothing paradox that defines all of reality.  However, counterintuitively, they are simultaneously all the same reality (even the mind/matter distinction is erroneous, as both are simultaneous constructs of each other and therefore the same thing, but being without substantive origin, not an actual thing at all!).

In short, it's turtles all the way down.

As physicists depend on physical law, thaumatologists depend on mental law (nothing to do with psychology), which intersects physical law and therefore allows for the two to influence each other.

Pseudoscience for the win!

Wow. I think you win the award for the most pseudoscience babble in one post! ^_^

I really like your take on magic and consequentially the laws of the universe. Let me spit it back at ya to see if I get it.

Thought and reality are one in the same. Magic is the ability to alter ones thoughts so that reality bends to meet them. It's almost like hallucinating so heavily that you cause others to hallucinate and thus, the universe to "hallucinate" making the dream become reality.

Inspired.
 - Rael

Quote from: Raelifin

Quote from: Salacious AngelIn Dystopia, magic works because humanity is in the process of breaking the universe.

I've given up trying to explain it in any form that is both succinct and compehensive, but it basically depends on the paradoxically recursive relationship between matter and consciousness.  Namely:

Consciousness, mind and perception emerged from matter, but the entire verifiable universe is contained empirically within the perceptions of conscious entities.  Thus, matter both causes mind, and is caused by mind, in a bewildering ontological paradox without end.

Thaumatology (magic), then, involves exerting one's influence over matter through visualisation in the consciousness, which causes the submissive physical reality (the one within the mind) to alter, subsequently manifesting as a change in dominant physical reality (the one containing the mind), as the two physical realms are not in fact distinct from one another.  There is a successive heirarchy of realities (physical and mental in continuous alternation), and through comprehension of each reality one ascends towards the Conceptual Singularity, the everything/nothing paradox that defines all of reality.  However, counterintuitively, they are simultaneously all the same reality (even the mind/matter distinction is erroneous, as both are simultaneous constructs of each other and therefore the same thing, but being without substantive origin, not an actual thing at all!).

In short, it's turtles all the way down.

As physicists depend on physical law, thaumatologists depend on mental law (nothing to do with psychology), which intersects physical law and therefore allows for the two to influence each other.

Pseudoscience for the win!

Wow. I think you win the award for the most pseudoscience babble in one post! ^_^

I really like your take on magic and consequentially the laws of the universe. Let me spit it back at ya to see if I get it.

Thought and reality are one in the same. Magic is the ability to alter ones thoughts so that reality bends to meet them. It's almost like hallucinating so heavily that you cause others to hallucinate and thus, the universe to "hallucinate" making the dream become reality.

Inspired.
 - Rael

I like Raelifin's translation better, it didnt make my head hurt :P
And from what i understood of Salacious Angel's post and Raelifin's translation if its accurate, i think the ideas brillant.

Oh, come now. Salacious' explanation isn't all that obtuse, really. Turtles all the way down! :turtle:

But it hits upon one of the things I like most about Dystopia: for many reasons, the whole world feels like a waking dream. Being in Dystopia is walking sleeplessly through the hallways of your empty house, while the moon casts distended shadows from outside the window, with the clock perpetually on the verge of striking three o'clock in the morning. You do not know whether you are asleep or awake, and although you can't be sure why, some nagging instinct insists that all is not well with the world.

I blame the IoValde.

In Axa, I have an explicitly dualistic cosmology, in which Mind/Spirit can have (temporary) dominance over Matter/Substance. Stronger, trained minds can directly perceive the root essence and manipulate it in ways that aren't available to those restricted to purely physical senses. Others can work directly in the realm of Spirit, bypassing the essence altogether.

All consciousness is composed of fragments of the First Consciousness, a concept I borrowed/modified from the Brahmin of Hinduism. What people call gods are just larger fragments - correspondingly more aware and more powerful. Similarly, there are a vast array of spirits of various power ranging from sub-animal up to the most powerful of deities. And who knows what else might be out there in the aether, if one were foolish enough to venture there.

These gods can not "grant" power to their followers. But they can teach, and they also control an array of servant spirits that might be delegated on need to aid their allies.

Thus, there are three types of magic which I designate Essence Magic, Spirit Magic, and Familiar Magic. Unfortunately, my spell system remains incomplete, although mostly roughed out in concept.

Quote from: Luminous CrayonOh, come now. Salacious' explanation isn't all that obtuse, really. Turtles all the way down! :turtle:

But it hits upon one of the things I like most about Dystopia: for many reasons, the whole world feels like a waking dream. Being in Dystopia is walking sleeplessly through the hallways of your empty house, while the moon casts distended shadows from outside the window, with the clock perpetually on the verge of striking three o'clock in the morning. You do not know whether you are asleep or awake, and although you can't be sure why, some nagging instinct insists that all is not well with the world.

I blame the IoValde.

...Wow.

It's amazing to have someone else easily sum up your setting in a way you had so much trouble doing yourself.  Particularly the 3 O'Clock thing, as the number three has great metaphysical significance in Dystopia (along with eight, four and eleven).  Can I quote this remark in my introductory post of Dystopia Revisited?

QuoteCan I quote this remark in my introductory post of Dystopia Revisited?

Sure, of course.

Quote from: Luminous CrayonThe whole world feels like a waking dream. Being in Dystopia is walking sleeplessly through the hallways of your empty house, while the moon casts distended shadows from outside the window, with the clock perpetually on the verge of striking three o'clock in the morning. You do not know whether you are asleep or awake, and although you can't be sure why, some nagging instinct insists that all is not well with the world.

:ninja: Man, that's creepy. I suddenly want to go far away and bury anything that might remind me of Dystopia in a portable hole.

 :ontopic:
Phaedoras uses a boring system in comparison. Most magic is... well, magical. Being magic, nobody knows why it does what it does or how to use it. Magical springs, beasts from beyond, etc. have no logical explanation and simply are. I get tired of the "magic is physics" explanation and I'm happy using the "magic is magical" one. ^_^

Phaedoras is also animistic. Spirits can use magic, but they themselves are magical and alien. "Spellcasting" is the act of binding a spirit and convincing it to use its magic.

[inside joke]At least I have a shiny rock... >_> [/inside joke]

In my embryonic setting (not yet posted, so far its almost all in my head) magic and psionics will probably work as follows...

Magic (there is no distinction between Arcane and Divine, as I will be created snazzy new core spellcasting classes with snazzy new spell lists et cetera) is the act of using rituals to channel extradimensional powers into the world.

Psionics is the fact of having a mind which is attuned in such a way as it can affect the material world with its thought processes. One could either be born with one's mind already in such a state or move it into such a state through extensive meditation and so on.