The Campaign Builder's Guild

[ooc](//../../e107_files/public/1168206278_9_FT22227_dystopia4.gif) This is the discussion thread for Dystopia Revisited (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?20839.last).[/ooc]

It's been a while since I've looked at Dystopia.  I look forward to seeing your revisiting of it.  I feel I may need to something similar with some of my projects.

May favorite part of the new thread so far is the "Destiny" speech the guy being tortured gives.  I might suggest not breaking his speach until the very end, rather than splitting it with the torture, have the torture be the end.

The only other thing I can suggest so far is also technical (it's hard to give weighty content suggestions this early, since you're working on presentation right now):

QuoteThis is a world caught between many things. Between slumber and wakefulness, agony and bliss, ignorance and unbearable enlightenment.

is a world caught between slumber and wakefulness, between agony and bliss, between ignorance and unbearable enlightenment."  

As always, disregard any suggestion if you like the original better.

You have a fantastic creative mind, so I look forward to seeing more.

Wow.

Just as a note, I have never before read Dystopia, so this revisiting is incredibly convenient for me.

On another note, your introduction is awesome.  I now have to find my jaw, as it hit the floor and went right on through a while ago...

A nice, concise intro. I think it does a better job than the original thread of portraying the diversity of Dystopia right from the outset. In particular, the early emphasis on aquatic life makes the undersea regions seem a part of Dystopia as a whole instead of a seperate (if nearby) setting all their own.

Regarding that last point, perhaps consider a passing reference to methods or realms through which interaction between air-breathing and water-breathing races are possible.

I primarily lurk on the CBG, but I had to post just to say: I LOVE Dystopia!  At the risk of sounding like a sycophantic fanboy, Dystopia is the kewlest.  I've read the old Dystopia thread a few times, and I love the flavor of the setting.  Your writing definately captures the feeling of utter doom and the madness required to ignore it.  The sheer magnifience of this setting is awe-inspiring. (Oops, there I go being sycophantic.)

I want to hear about the conquering of Heaven, the IoValde (they rock), and the aquatic races (you have done an excellent job of portraying their alienness)!  Your new intro is awesome, definately supports the dark tone of the setting.  I am looking forward to more.

Quote from: Salacious AngelThis is a world caught between many things. Between slumber and wakefulness, agony and bliss, ignorance and unbearable enlightenment.

is a world caught between slumber and wakefulness, between agony and bliss, between ignorance and unbearable enlightenment."[/quote]Wow.[/quote]A nice, concise intro. I think it does a better job than the original thread of portraying the diversity of Dystopia right from the outset. In particular, the early emphasis on aquatic life makes the undersea regions seem a part of Dystopia as a whole instead of a seperate (if nearby) setting all their own.[/quote]I primarily lurk on the CBG, but I had to post just to say: I LOVE Dystopia! At the risk of sounding like a sycophantic fanboy, Dystopia is the kewlest. I've read the old Dystopia thread a few times, and I love the flavor of the setting. Your writing definately captures the feeling of utter doom and the madness required to ignore it. The sheer magnifience of this setting is awe-inspiring. (Oops, there I go being sycophantic.)[/quote]doom[/b] and madness elements are clearly evoked.

QuoteI want to hear about the conquering of Heaven, the IoValde (they rock), and the aquatic races (you have done an excellent job of portraying their alienness)! Your new intro is awesome, definately supports the dark tone of the setting. I am looking forward to more.

Heaven's fate has been altered slightly: it didn't seem feasible to me (even within the improbable nature of the setting) that humanity could conquer the angels without assistance from the Angels themselves.  So Heaven's still conquered, but the specifics of its fall are more treacherous in nature.  The IoValde will be back in terrifying form, with a slightly more insidious background.  The aquatic races have, though usually mentioned in passing, somehow become the poster boys for Dystopia.  They will be given their dues.

More to come, folks!

I read through your new post.  Some interesting ideas.  I like how you work out the mental/physical dualism as found in some esoteric cosmologies.

Anathema.... mmmmmmmmm....

Deceptively enough, Dystopia doesn't deal in dualism.  It deals in the illusion of dualism; the erroneous distinction between things which should not be distinguished.  The dichotomy is like the ouroboros: two entities ostensibly containing their counterpart within themselves, but truly being a singular, self-referencing entity.  Reality is essentially infinity observing infinity.

I have The Eternal Golden Braid to thank, in part, for this inspiration.

The second and third posts have now been merged.  More to come.

Quote from: Salacious AngelThe dichotomy is like the ouroboros: two entities ostensibly containing their counterpart within themselves, but truly being a singular, self-referencing entity.  Reality is essentially infinity observing infinity.

That sounds more like Yin-Yang than the ouroboros.

I like the flavor of the cosmology section as an intro. From the perspective of a campaign setting as art, it works very well. I'm curious to see related material that will actually come in play in game. How easy is it to move between different spheres? How to travellers percieve the journey? How often does such travel happen, and what effect do the resulting interactions have on Dystopian life? What can sentient beings do in a given sphere as compared to what they can and cannot do in others (game mechanics, perhaps)?

Sorry, that should probably have read: "Ostensibly, it is two entities, each containing its counterpart within itself, but it is more accurately expressed in the imagery of the ouroboros; a singular entity containing itself within itself."

Coming next: Iounennion, The Merchant Cities of Draum, The City of Eternal Rain and the... League of Prostitutes?  Oh dear.

Quote from: Salacious Angela singular entity containing itself within itself."

Like I said. Yin-Yang. (In Taoism, the yin-yang symbol represents one singular whole that is sometimes mistakenly described as two halves, even though no such division actually exists. The supposed dichotomy of yin and yang is a false one; both are exactly the same thing.)

[spoiler Spoilerized for convenience][ic Dystopia for Dummies]

Quote from: #0000ff"As Muer became Mýr over time, so too did Muer Saell become Myrshal, which in later incarnations of Phaelassi (particularly at the height of the Omellud Theocracy) came to represent not only the planet itself (which for them extended no farther west than the Iounennion Sea), but also the Counterfeit Realities, which were only beginning to be understood."[/color] to be a bit dense. I understand you write from the perspective of an intelectual addressing fellow intelectuals, but perhaps it would be better to choose a different perspective and/or subject for the initial content. After all, is the verbose section on etymology actually relevant to the reader?

I'm making good headway (despite the prose) in your work. Expect more review soon (After this headache goes away :P).[/spoiler]

That was genuinely laugh-out-loud funny.

I think I will make that an official part of the setting, Rael.  I like my style, and will stick with it, but this idea could prove very useful as a sidenote.  Don't worry, though: the other quotes I'll be employing don't feature nearly the same quantity of circumnavigatory prose as that of Eirqart anâ,¬,,¢Melluk (and as Dystopia is fleshed out, you'll see why it opens how it opens).

Part of the problem might be that a lot of folks are reading this as a campagin setting (it doesn't help that it's in the Campaign Builder's Guild).  Technically, it is, but I'm aiming for a more literary than utilitarian presentation: to be read more like a discordant novel than a setting rulebook.  It's all "good reading", but not all of it is useful to a prospective Dystopia DM.  If you want to use it as a campaign setting, skip straight to "The World", or even "Iounennion".

Which doesn't exist yet...

It will be up in a few days.

Wow, I actually don't know where to start save to say that. It really has the feel of a book written in another age for another place. There is an immediate sense of it being a dark, living world that has different rules than our own. It is also one of those rare settings that makes me wish I had a setting handbookf for it on my shelf.

To begin with: the names are very good. The Book of Yawd is evocative sounding for instance. The phrase "The Overreach, The Inverted Tower, a Prison of Kings" makes you want to know more. It is as poetic and wild and strange sounding as any place in Michael Moorcock's Multiverse.

There is a bigness to your proposed world that I find fascinating. It makes me think of one of those paintings from the 60s that showed buildings and vessels huge and overwhelming and people around and on them tiny as ants.

I would like simply to encourage more from you. I want to know more about the Carrion Lords, more about the conceits of antiquity that endure in gross fashion, more about the city of eternal rain.

All in all most intriguing.

Quote from: #0000ffAscending past the mist
A hundred score and they were one
The soil despoiled with blood and soot
Disgorged them t'ward the sun
Their faces shone with blackish light
Their eyes beheld the blade
Which from the clouds supernal sang
And clave apart the Shade
-Terminus Corpus[/color][/center]
As for the City of Eternal Rain, that'll be featured in Iounennion, so you'll know before the week's end.

On another note, a little extra text has been added to the Core Ethos in the first post.  Not much, but it should have been there in the first place.  It is thus:

[ic=Addendum]Rebirth
The earth is older than the universe.  Man is older than the earth.  There have been innumerable incarnations of the Eternity, born, shattered and reforged, for all that dies is not dead eternal.  A princely shade sits perched upon the crown of existence, and with diamond hands he twists the cosmic skein and weaves anew the lattice of Creation.[/ic]

I'm going to provide counterpoint to my earlier suggestion of a change in writing style. Though the etymology section is thick and imo, irrelevant, the next discussion of the nature of Myr is greatly boosted by the verbiage. When reading about the nature of mind and matter the reader can be drawn into a discussion of the magical nature of the setting solely on conjecture formed in the mind of the reader. This is a brilliant move because it engages interest and explains something while keeping it mysterious and locked. Because of this, I'm actually going to suggest a re-phrasing of the core idea of "Perception as Power" so as to leave a little more mystery.

I still think you might want to tone down/move the etymology section though.

A question regarding the great spheres (read: planes):
Though Myr is magical in its very nature, are the planes an important part of the setting? I'm always a bit hesitant when someone brings up planar travel, because it draws focus away from the world. What, if I may ask, is the purpose behind the otherworlds?

More content! Though you have 8+ pages of words I fear that I only see 1-2 pages of ideas. Keep writing!

Hello! It's been about a year since I've really kept up with Dystopia, and like a twitchy addict, I decided it's time for another fix.

I do believe you've pared away a lot of your material in the process of revisitation, and I wonder what you intend to reimplement and what you intend to do without. Unless I have missed links to other pages where the remainder of the information is stored, of course.

I do miss the cephalopods and their defense of their ancient and strange ways against the encroachment of surface-dwellers and skin-takers. I miss Tammaurand (which I have probably misspelled!) and the machinery of its soot-clogged depths, the peculiarly ocular seas. Most of all, I think I miss the IoValde and their terrible machinations, the dreaded plasmoclast engine, and the stilled streets of Penumbra. I see that you are refocusing your attention to other facets of Dystopia (particularly the philosophical, it seems), but I'd hate to see all of this go away entirely.

What seems new to me is the matter of Yawd, Basch, and Aub. Although I was at first struck with some unusual associations, (http://www.boschtools.com/) I found this quite compelling. It underscores quite succinctly the ideas you have discussed elsewhere: namely, the perceived yet illusory dichotomy between opposites, the eventual and inevitable decay of all things, and the way that destructive forces act without malice, but with some sort of twisted and unconventional affection.

You've said it before, but here, you are showing it, and that is powerful. I feel that in many places, your way with words distracts you, and leads you do explain and to allude, when presenting your ideas in a more visual and narrative manner is far more evocative and satisfying. You damn tease.

I feel I can address Raelifin's question about the importance of the great spheres and the purpose behind them. Feel free to correct me if I am in error, of course. But Dystopia has never struck me as a setting that is literal-- instead, it is a metaphor for examining, insofar as it is possible to do so, the dark and sordid corners of the mind. Used in this context as an illustrative tool for mental concepts, conventional geography leaves much to be desired, and the various and bewildering Geodesics are much more appropriate.

The relation of the various Geodesics to Myr cannot be considered analogous to the relation of the various planes of a standard D&D cosmology to the Prime Material. (Indeed, I almost hate to mention such terms here; I feel as if by invoking such vocabulary I am breaking some kind of spell.) The otherworlds do not "draw focus away from the world," I think, because the fractured and layered nature of reality (can we call it that?) is an essential element of this world.

Again, Dystopia is a "world" that I have trouble envisioning in terms of conventional geography; I have trouble assigning labels like "space", "distance", "weight", "North," etc. to it-- it seems to elude them. I think it is more likely that Dystopia might be a shared dream or hallucination, or the mental landscape of an individual slowly losing sanity, or some sort of elaborately-constructed thought prison containing the minds (but not the physical forms) of countless creatures who perceive themselves as its inhabitants. I ramble, but my point is that I don't think that the usual sorts of consideration and questions apply here.

That said, I hope that Dystopia continues to grow in size and in detail. Right now, it feels as if most of the landscape has been boiled away, leaving only a sad shell: a philosophy assignment.

Or have the IoValde succeeded at last, and Myr become Penumbra, and I am only now discovering this? :(

Quote from: LuminousHello! It's been about a year since I've really kept up with Dystopia, and like a twitchy addict, I decided it's time for another fix.

I do believe you've pared away a lot of your material in the process of revisitation, and I wonder what you intend to reimplement and what you intend to do without. Unless I have missed links to other pages where the remainder of the information is stored, of course.

I do miss the cephalopods and their defence of their ancient and strange ways against the encroachment of surface-dwellers and skin-takers. I miss Tammaurand (which I have probably misspelled!) and the machinery of its soot-clogged depths, the peculiarly ocular seas. Most of all, I think I miss the IoValde and their terrible machinations, the dreaded plasmoclast engine, and the stilled streets of Penumbra. I see that you are refocusing your attention to other facets of Dystopia (particularly the philosophical, it seems), but I'd hate to see all of this go away entirely.[/quote]Tammurand[/i].

Some things changed and some things not...

The dhampir are now the descendants of the rulers of the Veighasht (rather than the rulers themselves), the rulers being a far older people called the Sangheil.  Their nature is inextricably tied to the Taint of Aggremoor.

The cephalopods have not changed.  If there is one thing I am adamant about preserving, it is the psychology of the cephalopods.

Das Dramurr has expanded in physical size but diminished in political power, and the alsin (the analogue to Old Dystopia's humans) are equally prevalent in the newly conceived kingdoms of Calleinn.

Chaultine is now far more habitable, although the Whispering Coast remains, as testament to the Plasmoclast.

The IoValde have been repositioned in the history of Mýr, although their influence is now arguably stronger.  The Cataclysm occurred soon before humanity's population of Chaultine {making it thousands of years before it did in Old Dystopia).

Humanity is now native to the Sundered Isles: the earliest humans are the jutra, whose first empire (in the Clockwork Kingdoms) still remains, guarded by the aeons-old golemn[sic].  Now, humanity exists as the jan, jutra, samkha and ulven (thus, they no longer exist as separate races in the conventional fantasy sense).

Heaven is much the same; only the nature of the Fall has changed (now engineered purposefully by a select few among the angels, for reasons you may not expect).

The Sorrow Plague is still around.  As in, it happened, and it's still happening.

The Focus of Worldly Power has shifted from Baennet Zzar into the Iounennion Sea.  This has a lot to do with the politics in the aftermath of the Great War, when the Merchant Kings all but nullified trade to all conflicting nations (Draum exists right between Dramurr and West Corlainth), thus asserting their own economic might.

Baennet Zzar is now a collection of nations, rather than a singular one.

Ehrune is now more "worldly'.  That is, it has more physical substance than it seemed to in Old Dystopia.  It is also the place where the manifest desires of gods go to dwindle into oblivion.

The Future seeks to devour the past.  Penumbra has not yet come to be, and yet already it seeks to reach backward through inconceivable ages, retroactively engineering its own premature existence.  It doesn't take a genius to see this is an ontological paradox on a monolithic scale.  Bad news for the Cosmos...

And much more!  Again, a lot of what you recall will remain, plus a helluva lot more that youâ,¬,,¢ve never seen.

QuoteWhat seems new to me is the matter of Yawd, Basch, and Aub. Although I was at first struck with some unusual associations, I found this quite compelling. It underscores quite succinctly the ideas you have discussed elsewhere: namely, the perceived yet illusory dichotomy between opposites, the eventual and inevitable decay of all things, and the way that destructive forces act without malice, but with some sort of twisted and unconventional affection.

You've said it before, but here, you are showing it, and that is powerful. I feel that in many places, your way with words distracts you, and leads you do explain and to allude, when presenting your ideas in a more visual and narrative manner is far more evocative and satisfying. You damn tease.[/quote]I feel I can address Raelifin's question about the importance of the great spheres and the purpose behind them.... my point is that I don't think that the usual sorts of consideration and questions apply here.[/quote]you[/i] should be writing this...

QuoteThat said, I hope that Dystopia continues to grow in size and in detail. Right now, it feels as if most of the landscape has been boiled away, leaving only a sad shell: a philosophy assignment.

compliments[/i] - rather than dominates - the (pseudo)corporeality of the world.

Quote...Or have the IoValde succeeded at last and Myr become Penumbra, and I am only now discovering this?

Perhaps.

[quote SA]Any suggestions as to how I should go about this?[/quote]Perception and Illusion
Are we wanderers in a great cosmic web, watching the strands unfold, or is it because we perceive with such lucidity that we believe we exist? Is an illusion real if there is no flaw? Is a thing real if it is never found? The rules of reality are blurred here, and things that do not, or should not, exist are often too real.[/ooc]

I'm sure you could write something better, but the idea is to muddle up the perception of magic to aid its mystique.

Quote from: Mutually Assured Destruction (don'tthinkaboutit)The Future seeks to devour the past.  Penumbra has not yet come to be, and yet already it seeks to reach backward through inconceivable ages, retroactively engineering its own premature existence.  It doesn't take a genius to see this is an ontological paradox on a monolithic scale.  Bad news for the Cosmos...

Fun story!

I read your response this morning, thought about it for a while, resolved to check the thread again later, et cetera.

Then I went to class. My Tuesday/Thursday class is Electroacoustic Composition, which is an electronic music class that involves a fair amount of computer programming and related sound manipulation. The final project for this class is the construction of a piece, to be performed at a concert at the end of the semester, which must feature some sort of interaction between one or more live performers and a computer patch.

So I was sitting in class, trying to make sense of this program and what it can do, and thinking about Penumbra, sitting at the far end of the timeline, reaching back into the past in improbable and meddlesome ways. It's given me an idea of how to set up my piece.

I guess what I am trying to say is: would you be okay with the idea of me using Dystopia as inspiration for a piece of music Y/N?

I can't put a chain on your inspiration.  Let your creativity flow free!

Ahem.  That means yes.  Anyone can do anything with Dystopia, so long as they remember where it came from, and treat it with respect.

im reading your setting tomorrow
if i dont, feel free to hunt me down, tie me to my laptop and make me.

Then it's a date!

Posted a short story set in Iounennion.  The juicy bits shall follow close behind.

I like the story, it has a nice combination of mystery and cynicism and action, which are things that immediately come to mind with your setting. If I were to warn you about anything it would be this: the story is a really good example of how to keep such a setting interesting, ie character and drama. It would be cool to see more of how someone's character could fit into this world.

Thanks, Ty.  I think Dystopia will end up being presented primarily through narrative.  Next one will be from a lizard's perspective.  Well, kind of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapsid) a lizard.

Yay, I can't wait, one of my favourites!

Wow. That story is fantastic. I've always been a fan of Dystopia, but seeing it portrayed in such a way, from a human perspective, makes me see it entirely afresh.

I'm very glad you're planning to do more narrative-based stuff, and I eagerly anticipate it.

Yeah, it started out being a short vignette to introduce the section on Iounennion, but when I got into full swing it ended up being 1'200 words, which is a little long for a vignette (by my standards).  Decided to add it anyway, as a post was long overdue, methinks.

Quote from: Salacious AngelWell, kind of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapsid) a lizard.

Quote from: From the Wikipedia Entry:Synapsids ('fused arch') also known as Theropsids ('beast face'),

"There were four of them,â,¬Â mutters Cythphas. â,¬Å"They are all the worse on their own. Or in droves.â,¬Â[/quote]because[/i] it's out there on its own, unexplained, and it leaves me wondering what sort of creatures these ironheads are, that Cythphas would rather fight four of them at once than one by itself.

Quote from: Luminous CrayonThis is probably my favorite little throwaway passage from the Murta Sigli story. I think I like it because it's out there on its own, unexplained, and it leaves me wondering what sort of creatures these ironheads are, that Cythphas would rather fight four of them at once than one by itself.

The peculiarity of the ironhead battle tactics (along with certain... idiosyncrasies of their anatomy) is the main reason why they are one of my favourite terrestial "races" in Myr.  I guess this is my penchant for allusion popping up again: ghostfaces, ironheads, the long-dead rulers of the city-beneath; I figured it would do well to mention such things in an introductory tale for Iounennion, but that it would be overkill to explain them.

Oh, and I'm working on Iounennion right now, I swear!

To better understand some of the impending historical posts, here's a short list of past names and their modern equivalents.

Aghatt Urr/the Aghatt - Das Dramurr
Causicaa - Calleinn (the name Causicaa refers to all the disparate and conflicting regions in what would come to be known as Calleinn when finally united in the 1800's)
Leyblas - Poeddac
Chalseybim - Soujinnlead

More will be added as they appear (and if you think you've spotted one that I haven't identified, gimme a holler)

Next up:

Anatomy of a City-Tower
Gaelbellaine, City of Rains

Interesting, as always. I like the mention of respirators for creatures with gills, clearly establishing if (yes) and how (with respirators) water-breathers are able to interact with air breathers.

I notice that at one point, you make a passing reference to "the Naga." Why did you choose to use a name from real world mythology here? Except for angels and Man, it seems that Dystopian creatures almost always have original names; naming a race after nagas immediately sets it apart and makes it seem as though it should be rather important.

Also, I noticed a few grammatical errors in the story, "Intercession":

QuoteI hissed dissent.  Ã¢,¬Å"They will themselves.  We will wait.â,¬Â

He raised his weapon towards the man almost without hesitation, and the bullet tore a bloody swathe through his chest.[/quote]They came to the Cities of the Eye near the apex of the thirty-third â,¬Å"Great Battel of Gloomâ,¬Â...[/quote]

Actually, Sisa's respirator is more akin to a breathing aid.  He's genuinely amphibious, but he can't breathe well at high altitudes so the respirator bathes his gills for extra oxygen.

The Naga are named thus because they're a primordial race of worms (not wyrms) that have been "synapomorphised" by the Tamut so that they resemble grand serpents.  I chose that name specifically for its connotations toward the arcane and the mythical (although like the Clerics in Dystopia's original incarnation, I make no apologies for any erroneous allusions to D&D).  The Naga are incredibly important; as much as the IoValde, Sangheili and Anarchim (the latter two having not yet been developed).

As to the errors, I'm uncertain whether it should be rendered less ambiguous by changing it ("They will do so themselves").  To be perfectly clear, the thing they (the humans) will do is intercede, but I had assumed that to be evident if Sisa's response was considered to follow directly on from Monet's question. (Alternatively, the statement could be the Ambassador's acknowledgement of human autonomy - "let the men do as they wish", so to speak - which is an ambiguity I will gladly indulge)

The second one I'll change.

Battel(sic) is spelt "correctly", being a transliterated nuance of Northern vs. Southern Iounennion dialects.

EDIT: To remove all confusion to the matter, the name would be Lebor Umgli in the north and Libor Umgli in the south.  The north retains more of the old pronunciations (Lebor being analogous to the Old English "battel"), while the south has diverged somewhat more (serving, as it does, as a thoroughfare for foreign peoples and their colloquialisms), and so Lebor has become Libor (like our modern "battle").

Gotcha. That explanation clarified things nicely.

More chunky goodness added to the Iounennion post (Geographies and Politics).

Tasty

I want it all in an illustrated tome two inches thick to put on my coffee table.

Your writing does wonders to create some amazing images.

With its abundance of races, it seems like you took the major evolutionary branches to sentience. Was this a core concept when designing Dystopia, or has it just happened that way?

And speaking of races I'm still struggling to understand the melting pot:
The Tamut are synapsidae, but you also say they dwell in the water and they're the enemies of the Gon. So are they lizards or did they evolve into something more cetacean (whale) like? For some reason I really like the idea of ancient and scheming whales...

There are two races cephalapod, do they differ along the squid/octopus lines, or are the differences more arcane?

Finally, as to chordates: are humans lumped into this category so it comprises multiple races, or do you use it in reference to a specific race?

I'm sure it will probably all be explained eventually, but perhaps a few morsels now?  

QuoteI want it all in an illustrated tome two inches thick to put on my coffee table.

Your writing does wonders to create some amazing images.[/quote]With its abundance of races, it seems like you took the major evolutionary branches to sentience. Was this a core concept when designing Dystopia, or has it just happened that way?[/quote]in[/i] a dynamic, verdant (and no small part psychedelic) ecostem rather than dominates it; there are other beasts, other predators eking out their existence, propagating and cutting a swathe through the world's biological history.  In a sense, it is the notion that sentient civilisation itself is but another protean wilderness (with psycho-vampiric fungus), wherein everyone's striving to be the fittest.

So to that end I established a number of races who held some kind of dominance in Dystopia's ecosystem.  The synapsids and cephalopods are almost a warring analogue to humanity; if men are lords of the earth (they aren't) then the cephs/synaps are the lords of the deeps (they aren't, either).  Men can't just go trumpeting over everyone: the dark waters crush them, the scorching deserts roast them, the hollow places between the stars consume their very essence.  But there is always something living in those places deemed uninhabitable by others.

(To further emphasise the concept, the Anarchim, Eloim and IoValde, called the elder races, are in fact from millions of years ago.  They're like... the dinosaurs.  Tamut and Sut history is comprised of folk tales collected over the aeons of their evolution.  Cephalopod accounts of ancient wars in the Shell Empire are a kind of "illuminated paleontology", a mythologised version of their evolutionary struggles.)

QuoteAnd speaking of races I'm still struggling to understand the melting pot:
The Tamut are synapsidae, but you also say they dwell in the water and they're the enemies of the Gon. So are they lizards or did they evolve into something more cetacean (whale) like? For some reason I really like the idea of ancient and scheming whales...

tyrranosaurus rex[/i], but librarians.

Sorry, there aren't any ancient scheming whales, but there are ancient scheming clams.  Will that do?

QuoteThere are two races cephalapod, do they differ along the squid/octopus lines, or are the differences more arcane?

Finally, as to chordates: are humans lumped into this category so it comprises multiple races, or do you use it in reference to a specific race?[/quote]aquatic[/i] chordates (Tamut, serpent-kind, the fanged brood (sharks) etcetera) as "chordates".

Thanks for your questions, and I hope I shed some light.

Tamut F.A.Q.

Q: I've never seen one before.  What do they look like?
A: They're big ugly quadrupeds, about twice as long as a man is tall, and fifty percent of that is a tail that'll crush a man's skull with a twitch.  Their skin is usually dark grey, and somewhat rubbery in texture.  The face is an approximation of a lizard/dolphin mongrel, filled with multitudinous teeth like carefully honed stilettos.  They're made for swimming, so their tail terminates in a large horizontal fin and their hind legs are immensely powerful.

Q: How do they think?
A: Violently.  That is, passionately, and, well, violently.  They're very philosophical, in a carnivorous kind of way, and they tend to pass the time with intellectual discourse.  Because of this proclivity, they are probably the most sophisticated (for what it's worth) of the common races.  The Iounennion's greatest libraries are stocked and maintained by them, and many of the books therein are translated works by them.

Q: People say they're good businessmen.
A: They're efficient businessmen.  They've never, ever been good.  I'll put it this way: if you crossed a Merchant Lord, he might have your head.  If you fail a Tamut, it might eat you and your extended family.  Think I'm exaggerating?  Is it worth the risk?

Q: Why do they even tolerate humanity in their territory?
A: Why don't you go and ask them?

Q: What's the deal with them and the Sut?
A: No-one really knows.  They give a lot of different reasons (many don't make sense), but whatever the reason, they always fight when they encounter each other.  Always.  Like they're tearing their way to centre of some copiously wrapped gift, only the gift is someone's fleshy insides.

Q: I've seen that their hides are covered in scars.  Some of them look very brutal.  What's with that?
A: A Tamut's second favourite pastime is rending flesh.  Being the courteous individuals that they are, they don't rend strangers (unless they deserve it, which is surprisingly often), so those nasty cuts are usually from interactions with kin and acquaintances.  It's like playtime, but with slashy claws.

Q: How can you tell when someone's been in a fight with a Tamut?
A: Strictly speaking, you probably won't recognise them as a "someone", more like a "something".  A messy, drippy red something on the floor.  Tamut are meticulous in their carnage, like everything else.

Q: How do you kill a Tamut?
A: Firstly, distance is the key, as they are very fast.  If you can, interpose a barrier that will give you some time to prepare (though you should have performed all preparations in advance - never fight them unprepared!).  This barrier should ideally be made of solid steel (no cages).  Wood is useless.  It's like paper.  Wet paper.

For your weapon, you should preferably use something automatic, as the intermittent shock of semi-automatic fire will just piss it off (this is to be avoided).  If you can acquire some, heavy ordnance is even better! (Do not assume grenades are a happy medium,  They are known to survive such attacks, and have a high degree of lethality even when their scorched innards are exposed.)

If you have no firearms, you'll likely only get one good stab in with that trusty sabre, so make it count!  (You can always use an advance guard to harry it with jabs and such, but you'll need a few dozen at least, as they are easily terminated.)

But an important question to ask is "Why do I want to fight it in the first place?"  Engagement will be an extraordinary commitment, and data shows that in as much as a ten-on-one (human advantage) confrontation with standard-issue Watch-class carbines, 83% casualties are assured.  Not good odds.  That's like... eight dudes and a leg.

Runningâ,¬,,¢s always an extremely palatable option.

Q: So if I've somehow pissed one off, and it isn't charging me yet, what can I do to stop it without resorting to violence?
A: They are open discourse - in fact, they love to talk.  But be honest!  They can sniff a white lie from a mile away!  Confess in as simple terms as possible what you did wrong, and trust that their reason and civility *coff* will save your life.  If you haven't done anything wrong but it's convinced you have, hopefully you've brought a friend.  Tamut are susceptible to human sacrifice.

Q: What if it's already charging?
A: Are you a... religious man?

Q: So are they psychopaths or something?
A: No.  With the exclusion of the Sut, they always attack with reason.  They aren't vengeful; if someone killed one of their kin they would first consider whether said person is a continuing threat, and proceed from there.  Otherwise, they are quite willing to let most transgressions go unpunished.

It is also a myth that they go on "killing sprees".  That only happened once, and they're very sorry.

[ic=A Tower Filled With Shades]"Vjdide!"

Meticulously, each wire, cord and blackened strap was secured about the victim's body, until with the last he had all the appearance of a marionette.  The celebrant descended the dais, his hands upraised in praise, and the eyeless Brothers spun their censers.

Here are the words they all spoke, transliterated with Yobar's assistance, though I was not told their meaning.

"Gnamfad hruddirham.  Mshir dibthhat."

The chaplain-lessers tell me it is of the emperor's sacred tongue, but not even those educated in its use are privy to its meaning, save Divinity Himself.  "We are agents, viulta," says one.  "Vehicles for the holy and ineffable Word our filthy minds have not the grace to comprehend."

Other words were then spoken, which I did understand but do not recall, and here the gathering was silent.  Afterwards, a slave came forth, his sinuous arms cradling a white basin which he set before the strung man's feet, and the chant began again, with a new and uneasy cadence, as the celebrant reached down into the container and drew a ladel stained dark with some unknown substance.  He raised it above the victim and poured the tarry mix upon his head.

Here, the man cried, with such voice and fervour it seemed the very cathedral would be made to tremble, but his words were borne on the winds of such eerie exaltation.  "Vjdide!"

Around them the wavering candlelight was like the stirring of a flock as a beast moves unseen amidst the reeds, and more dark mix was poured upon him, until he was covered.  His trembling had now ceased, and the chaplain returned the ladle to the pot.

"What is this?" I whispered, but Yobar's quiet exhalation silenced me.

A single gesture brought a tiny flame from a candle to the celebrant's hand.  So small, yet for the brief moment it danced upon his fingers it seemed the whole stage was drowned in its light.

Gods.  I knew what would follow, and the horrid anticipation of the event was asphyxiating.  I did not speak - I could not.

All of a sudden, the man was aflame, screaming, and the chant changed once again, a sickly "Tertlut hrashtist mladhub."  As the fire raced across his flesh (and strangely, in those first brief seconds the stink of roasting meat was already upon me), the cords jerked taut, pulling him upward to the darkness of the cathedral's high ceiling.

A hundred hands rose with him, in salute to his ascent.

The flames illuminated the shadows of the vault, and the horror of that one man's demise was suddenly eclipsed by a more sickening sight.

More shapes hung there, small at such a distance and yet discernable as men.  A crowd of hellish phantoms, suspended in gloom, and their numbers seemed to ascend through that high tower into a distant forever.

* "I am worthy!"
** "Foreigner"
*** "And so he is consumed by [the Hungry] God."
[/ic]

Oh, and those last two posts should be here.

Quote from: Sविष्णुAI wanted to convey the sense that humanity dwells in a dynamic, verdant (and no small part psychedelic) ecostem rather than dominates it

Sorry, there aren't any ancient scheming whales, but there are ancient scheming clams.  Will that do?[/quote]
I prefer my clams steaming actually. When they get to scheming -- the morning after isn't so good. I couldn't resist...

Thanks for the info, it was enlightening. Keep up the original work!

Virally fecund, eh?

That one's going in the lexicon for sure...

In cosmology, my eye is drawn to hod. Why does it seem familiar and what exactly is it?

You may recognise Hod from my old Concordance (http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?8092.post) thread.  He was the demon-god of bloody conquest and dominance, and held a seat among the ten Sephirot of the GodHead.

I loved my Sephirot so much that most of them have been retained in some fashion, so if you read the end of the second post again and compare it with Concordance you'll find that Zaphot is now a Great Sphere, and Temeris and Maenachus are Major Spheres (represented as Temerissent and Maenachalissent, respectively).

Similarly, though they have not yet been mentioned in Dystopia, Chokhmah is an ancient Naga revered by the Tamut, Chasod is the Weeping Ancient spanning the vastness twixt the Greater Hells and Illael, Eylon is the White Primordial of the Counterfeit Realms, and Elokhavastra is the "corporeal incarnation of a Descended Overgod adopted by the first men of the Clockwork Kingdoms in the Sundered Isles".

As for Hod, it is best described as the progeny of the other spheres of the Cosmos.  To put it in one scholar's words "If Hell is all the aggregate woes of the Cosmos made manifest, then Hod is the black river flowing down from the imperious heights of the Overreach to the glassy quiet of the Grey, where dead sufferings and silenced lamentations drift on waters thick with gore and effluvium to their final rest amidst the stagnance of the Infinity of Broken Worlds."

Some have called it the Entropic Road, for its watery path terminates where the Grand Sphere itself finds its end: the Calamity.  Beyond this, there is only the waiting Hollow and the darkness of the Yearning Father, Oblivion.

I can't speak for Sविष्णुA but Hod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hod_%28Kabbalah%29) is part of the Kabbalah (Jewish religion/tradition/spirituality) in that it is part of the Tree of Life. And I won't try to explain it better than that because I'll just botch the job.

Since Sविष्णुA used other "Kabbalistic" terms in his work, it might have something to do with it. Yes/no?

Kabbalah terms have also popped up in video games throughout the years. Most recently in the Xenosaga series.

Yep.  My Sephirot were shamelessly yanked from the Tree o' Life.  I think there's probably a reference to that by another member somewhere in the Concordance thread, too.

Quote from: Sविष्णुA[Though it has] not yet been mentioned in Dystopia, Chokhmah is an ancient Naga revered by the Tamut...

You should work that in somewhere. Nagas need some props. :)

Ah... yes, who isn't fascinated by the Tree of Life? I've tried working it into my scifi project, but it's hard to insert into anything scifi without feeling I'm being too obvious about ripping off Eva...

Shhhhh.  You're only ripping off Eva if you admit it...

http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neuroturbostudio/destroydystopia/series.php?view=archive&chapter=14392&mpe=1&step=1

That isn't you, is it?

Edit- If not, then I don't think that person particularly cares for your setting....

Some important changes have been made to the human sociogeography, noticeable in the second post of the main thread when it summarises the various regions.

But first things first, the "major ethnic groupings" of the human race have expanded.  They are now: alsin, jan, jutra, ulven, yeot and samkha.

In addition, the relationship between Das Dramurr and Calleinn has changed.  The latter is now a full-fledged continent, and Das Dramurr is to it as Japan is to China (geographically speaking).  What follows is a very brief summary of human expansion and differentiation across ancient history.

Humanity originated in the Sundered Isles, and there are four known periods in which major migration occurred, moving populations across the globe.  The first Exodus occurred many thousands of years ago, during or possibly even before the time of the Clockwork Cities (waaay before recorded history, or possibly even language).  These people passed through Calleinn, then south across the Eiglassut Sea into Chaultine; they would come to be known as the yeot.

(There is little sign of their presence - even in passing - in Calleinn.  Perhaps they were swallowed up by the Old Lords of the Earth?)

The second Exodus carried humanity from the Sundered Isles to East Corlainth; thus were born the samkha.

In third Exodus, which happened over a much larger period of time than the others, humanity travelled south into the various islands above the Iounennion, as well as Poeddac (and subsequently Rheinlaed and Soujinnlaed) and West Corlainth.  These humans are now the jan, jutra and ulven.

In the final Exodus humanity once again travelled down into Calleinn, also populating Das Dramurr.  These people would become the alsin.  They eventually reached Chaultine (but much, much later), and the ensuing conflicts with the native yeot caused a great schism, eventually culminating in the founding of the three Theocracies in the north, where the old (and very "primitive") ways could endure.

Here's a very simple diagram showing the history of human expansion.  The Exodi are represented as numbers (in order of sequence), identifying the continents they passed through.

Quote from: Cornhttp://www.webcomicsnation.com/neuroturbostudio/destroydystopia/series.php?view=archive&chapter=14392&mpe=1&step=1

That isn't you, is it?

Edit- If not, then I don't think that person particularly cares for your setting....

Not me (Not nearly my style of writing or art).  But thanks for the link; it's a rather nifty-lookin' comic.

Oh, and I hadn't made the changes I thought I made.  Now I have.

And I'll have Draum finished soon, I swear!

OK, I really only looked to check out your cosmos, but I must say that I absolutely love the All-Thing. This is probably answered elsewhere, but just how common is knowledge of this? I mean, is it just philosophers and theologians who know about the All-Thing, or would any commoner with INT 10 know about it? I imagine it's somewhere inbetween, but I'm curious for a feel of where inbetween.

If this is already answered, though, I'll just have to look at more :p

It is important to note that the All-Thing and the theory of Perceptual Recursion are products of thaumatological study, which is generally restricted to wealthy and learned individuals of the developed world.  A good way of looking at it is like the "string theory of magic", that is, a complication of the arcane processes and understandings that have developed over the millennia, tought in universities and detailed in bewildering treatises.

The comman man has no knowledge of the concept; rather he would likely be familiar with a base simplification (much as a youth is schooled in the basic principles of gravity but not taught the complexities of Special Relativity).  But again, this is only in developed nations such as those in the Baennet or Eastern Calleinn; the people of less refined nations retain the simple mystification and superstition that has long served them.

However, this is not to say that it is exclusive knowledge in a spiritual sense.  The Gehenn philosophy of Das Dramurr, for instance, involves four principle deities (the Quadripartite) and ten-thousand demigods, each of which is in some way "a simplification of the universal whole, perverted to that beings' own capricious ends", and together they define the nature of the world.  Alas, as Das Dramurr moves away from its secular past, the nature of Gehenn is now being polluted by dogma.

There are many other examples, emerging in Corlainth, South Chaultine and even among the inhuman races, and they all express it in different ways.  However, the theory is fairly recent, and hasn't proceeded beyond the more erudite academic circles.

So it's sort of like radiation in the 1960's? Sure, the commonman could learn more about it with the right applixation, but it still manages to be a convenient excuse for otherwise inexplicable things (green skin, tingling sense of danger, enhanced strength, etc.)?

I haven't posted anything on Dystopia in a while (excluding the Economy section in Draum) - in part because I've had a lot else going on, but more importantly due to an ardent rethinking of the setting's presentation.  While I've not had any intentions of significantly altering the setting (in such a manner as was done in making Revisited), I've been having issues with the general in-character exposition of the main text so far.  Not that I doubt the effectiveness of approach in terms of mood-setting, or fear a dearth of available voices to recount the setting; rather, I believe a lot of information is lost through relying on such narrators, as their nature is finite and as such they cannot fully convey all the nuances of the world that I require.

What I'm considering is an omnipotent narrator, possessed of a certain individual character and yet clearly divorced from the setting, who can eloquently detail the setting's every element.  I do not wish it to merely present Dystopia as a list of facts; I would like the delivery to possess the idiosyncrasies of an individual who sees all, but who might have subversive reasons for not telling all, and whose own opinions are often as perverse as the world itself.

I will, however, be retaining much of the in-character excerpts and fiction, and will write more.

What do those who have read Dystopia Revisited think of this idea?  What are its merits/disadvantages, and is there anything else I should take into consideration?

Salacious Angel,
This is the first chance that I have had to read Dystopia and I have to say my brain hurts, but in a good way! I couldn't stop reading once I started. Your cosmology and Great Spheres completely fascinated me and then the fiction evoked such images that I could picture it vividly, especially the one with the whelp.

As someone else said about wanting this as an illustrated coffee table book I completely agree.

But to your question. The omnipotent narrator will give you the ability to describe/tell everything and let you have the subversive atmosphere for things not told, but my question is this. What type of things will this narrator be able to tell us about the areas that you have already described that the current narrators for those sections haven't told us, or could tell us? The way you have it written now is beautiful. Is the point of breaking the fourth wall to add that subversive text to the setting, or are there pieces that the current narrators cannot tell us?

Either way you go I will be eager to see what else you write!

I'm of two minds about this.  First I would point out that an omniscient narrator doesn't have to "break the fourth" wall in the traditional sense of the word (all stories have narrators, but not all narrators address the audience directly).

That said, I can see the desire to reveal to players and GMs (etc.) details that might not be known by any particular character.  That's the advantage of the omniscient narrator.  On the other hand, I think part of Dystopia's appeal is mood of madness and discord, and I think that can best be conveyed with the emotion of first person.

We talked a little bit about this when you were reviewing Kishar, but maybe what you need is a narrator that does know way more than a person.  An ancient wizard, a powerful entity, a fallen angel, or whatever.  In my case, I have the nearly omniscient aeon, Theletus, (though the narrator is actually a human telling what she had been told by him, for reasons I think you understand).

A powerful being still allows you to intersperse opinion and clearly suspect information, but also to relay larger amounts of secret knowledge than any mere mortal has access to.  Plus, the archetype of the unreliable narrator does have its merits in fiction.

A nearly omniscient in-world (or in-game) narrator seem a bit bromidious and overdone to me. A reason for them to exist in the world needs to be fabricated and put into place, and a reason for them not to have any particular bias on top of that. It is my opinion that such as thing can only be done so many times, without becoming quite stale.

It seems that if you want to give more of an "information dump", than is possible through narration by individuals, the solution of a 'divorced from Dystopia, but still with motives' narrator is somewhat half-assed. I don't doubt that you would do amazingly with it, but it still presents the problems of other narrators, simply on a higher scale.

I think I agree with you folks.  An omniscient narrator isn't necessary, particularly given the apparent effectiveness of my current set-up.  However, I do know how I would go about doing it, if I did (and therefore don't see it as being nearly as half-assed, bromidious or overdone as Jaerc does) - nevertheless, I am aware of the different manner of issues it raises and would rather stick to my winning formula.

(If it ain't broke...)

Hoorah!

Though my heart sings with praise
When Dystopia passes by my gaze
It leaves me melancholy and sad
That updating this setting is no longer a fad
And has been this way for over two hundred days. :(

Jeez, that's a pretty freakin' long time.

Funny thing, I was recently rummaging through my archives and came upon a quaint little summary of one of the setting's early incarnations.  The setting has diverged significantly in tone since then, but it was a pretty profound reminder of why I'm writing this thing in the first place...

Dystopia

Entropy.  A weary-eyed child, stirring from slumber in the heart of a crumbling concrete jungle, peers through fractured panes of a soot-laden window to behold a sky thick with sickly russet darkness.  An aging warrior in a very different jungle sights an unfamiliar beast, which slithers, bounds and wings all at once, and melts the very air with its gaze.  A timeless earthen Magister swathed in trembling subterranean darkness peers into the very fabric of time and causality, and notes an ill pallor, a subtle fraying of the edges of reason'¦

These are ill times.  Famine and greed propel the pirate war-engine of Das Dramurr into an ever more desperate frenzy of conquest and destruction; in the depths of the Murkwater and Iounennion Seas, the cephalopod nations plot nameless designs amidst the ruins of fallen empires from aeons past; in the silence of a forest older than age itself, the enigmatic sidhe whisper maddening prophesies and promise illumination or damnation to all who hear their call'¦

Dystopia is a mix of Lovecraftian horror and swashbuckling heroism, with apocalyptic overtones.  It's a world headed in the wrong direction, and rest assured, this will not end well.

Points of Interest

Exotic Locales: Cathedrals the size of cities, mountains with minds and motions of their own, shadowed oceanic corridors, ancient ruins teeming with alien fiends, and lands of pure antireality'¦ fun for the whole family!

Truly Villainous Villains: The IoValde sealed shut the gate to the Daemonic Realm two millennia ago, but every doorway has a key, and what lies on the other side knows only the ways of agony.  Of course never underestimate the mortal capacity for horror; even without daemons, devils and other plane-hopping monstrosities, terror always finds a way.

Weird Technology: Bio-manipulation, anti-causal energies, pure chaos power, perception-dependent psionics'¦ the world is full of breathtaking technologies.

A Potentially Non-existent Cosmology: Yeah'¦ it's there, but it kinda isn't.  Go figure'¦

And plenty more!  Horrifying, tantalising, and about a trillion points in between, Dystopia is a wonder to behold, in all its facets.

My Dystopia entry for this month's contest will be up in a couple of days.

I need to hear more about the Lunatic Dark.  Yes, need is the appropriate word to use in this instance.