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Title: Break my system
Post by: Superfluous Crow on August 19, 2011, 01:22:51 PM
As some of you might remember there is an ongoing contest to make a resolution system for a roleplaying game not involving dice. I made just such a system and based on personal interest alone I'd like to know whether it would be viable in real world gaming.
Basically, I'm asking you to break the system.
Everybody knows that is it the players who find the flaws, so I'm basically asking you to pretend to be them.
If you can find any serious flaws, I'll try to repair them. For the sake of the contest, I will probably refrain from doing this until after the contest has finished unless LC gives me the thumbs up.
Open the two spoilers below to see the system.

[spoiler]
[ic=Look Ma, No Dice competition entry by Superfluous Crow]
Manifest Choice
The resolution system I have designed for this competition is called Manifest Choice and is designed with FATE and similar RPG systems in mind, but will work fine with anything using discrete skill levels and success margins.

The primary goals of the system are as follows:
The system operates with a set of entities tied to setting or game mythology, represented by chess pieces or similar tokens. These pieces are divided amongst the players and the game master, called the Architect.
Whenever an action is attempted, it is resolved based on the Entities in front of the player with the balance between so-called Boons and Curses being particularly important. Before this balance is tallied, though,  the Architect and the player get a chance to act, in that order. A player can manipulate the game board a number of times equivalent to his skill level, but every time he makes a move the Architect is awarded an additional move the next time someone acts. Failure is thus more sure to follow great success.
In addition, a player can only manipulate the board by calling in unused Entities or by exchanging bad Entities for good Entities with his fellow players, thus setting them up for a fall when it's their turn to act.
To spice things up, players are haunted by inevitable failure in the form of the Shadow and can at any point call upon their Manifest Destiny to ensure their victory. But always at a price.
[/ic]
[spoiler=complete system to follow]
Objective: The player must achieve a positive Balance by possessing more Boons than Curses, while the Architect (game master) will try to prevent him from reaching this goal.

Layout: Each player, including the Architect, has an area in front of him called his tapestry. In addition, there is a neutral area called Oblivion at the center of the table. 32 chess pieces, called entities, will be moved around between these areas and their positions determine the outcome of any attempted action. Half of the 32 entities are Curses/Boons while the remainder are special entities.

Setup: Before the session begins split boons and curses as equally between the players a s possible. Give the remaining curses/boons to the Architect. All other Entities are assigned to Oblivion.  

Resources: Strands of Fate (represented by real twine or other tokens). A player has a pool of two strands plus his skill modifier for any given action. Whenever a player spends a Strand, it goes to the Architect who gets to keep it. If the Architect later spends it, it goes back into the pool of unused strands.

Turn: Whenever an action requiring resolution is announced, the player and the Architect get their allotted strands and the resolution phase begins. First, the Architect can choose to either make one free move or spend as many of his strands as he wants to. Then, its the player's turn and he can likewise spend as many strands as he wishes. After this process, the action is resolved by finding the character's Balance.

Moves: There are two possible moves:
   —‹ Call: Spend one strand to move an entity from Oblivion to any tapestry.
   —‹ Exchange: Spend one strand to exchange an entity from one tapestry for any other figure of the same color, making them swap places.        
In addition, the Architect can, at the beginning of his turn, choose to Chain any number of Entities, making them immovable for the rest of the turn. They can neither be called nor exchanged.
If an entity is banished, it is returned to Oblivion.  

Resolution: The difference between boons and curses determines a person's Balance. If he has more boons than curses, he has a positive Balance and he succeeds. If it's a tie or lower, he loses. The higher the Balance, the more significant the outcome will be. More difficult tasks might require a minimum Balance of 2 or higher.

Adaptability: Any system which uses a discrete number of skill levels and uses a resolution system with a margin of success can be easily adapted to use Manifest. FATE would be an example of such a system. The tone of the resolution system can easily be adapted to fit any setting's mythology.

Architect's Tapestry:
Boons and curses possessed by the Architect are communal and apply to everybody!
For every Boon he possesses, he can make one more free move when he chooses not to spend strands.
If he possesses any curses, on the other hand, the Shadow can no longer be summoned.

Basic Entities

The Shadow
The Shadow is the most troublesome Entity of them all. While a player is under the Shadow he can never win, no matter how many Boons he possesses. His Balance always counts as negative.
The Shadow cannot be called, exchanged, nor chained. Instead, any player can put the Shadow in play by removing three black entities from a single tapestry and replacing them with the Shadow.  

Boon
A Boon adds one point to the Balance of the player who possesses it.

Curse
The opposite of the Boon. It deducts one point from the Balance.

Manifest Destiny
The Manifest Destiny is the most powerful Entity as it ensures your immediate victory. You count your Balance as positive for that single action. You can call it for free, but after resolving the action it banishes all of the following entities to Oblivion: Boons and the Shadow.

Other Entities

Blind Warrior
Calling the Blind Warrior allows you to move one Entity (including the Shadow) from the tapestry he is called to, to any other tapestry. In addition, you are fervently protected from everything. You can't receive Boons, Curses or the Shadow as long as you are guarded by the Warrior.

The Lurker on the Threshold
The Lurker breaks ties to the hero's advantage. As an exception to the general rule, a player holding the Lurker can win while under the Shadow by getting a tie.  
In addition, all communal Curses and Boons held by the Architect do not affect the player holding the Lurker.

Cosmic Irony
If a player calls the Irony, count all of his Curses as Boons and vice versa. This also goes for calling the Three Fates or the Shadow. Irony and the Shadow can't be in front of the same player, and if the latter is called the former is removed. Cosmic Irony can only be exchanged between the players, not by the Architect.  

The Ravenous Man
When a Ravenous Man is called or exchanged, an entity is immediately banished from the person now possessing the Man. When a person possessing the Man acts, the Ravenous Man eats another Entity. This continues until the player has no more Entities in which case the Man jumps to the player with most Entities, immediately devouring another one. The Shadow cannot be eaten, but it is powerless (has no effect) as long as the Man is fed.  

The Three Fates
A person holding the Three Fates can at any time choose to move an entity from one tapestry to another. This can be any entity, including the Shadow.
Like the Shadow, the Three Fates can neither be called, exchanged, nor chained. Instead, you put it in play by removing three white entities and replacing them with the Three Fates.
The person holding the Fates can make these moves even when it isn't his turn, but he can only ever make three of them. When he has used the Fates three times over any span of time, the Fates are banished. He loses his remaining moves if the Three Fates is moved elsewhere.

Golden Lie
When resolving the action, Golden Lie increases the magnitude of the Balance (be it positive or negative) by one. Ties count as negative as usual.
In addition, at the beginning of your turn,  remove a number of strands from your pool equal to your positive Balance or add a number of strands equal to your negative Balance. Use the unmodified Balance, as this is not part of the final resolution.
 
The Weaver
When you hold the Weaver, Entities exchanged with you do not need to be of the same color.

The Devil's Bargain
You can call upon the Devil's Bargain for free and as soon as you do the resolution phase ends. You narrowly escaped the consequences of your action. Exceptionally, you can even call upon the Bargain outside of a resolution phase to escape your current situation!
While holding the Bargain, your fate is separated from that of your friends and no exchanges can be made with entities from your tapestry. The only exchange you are still allowed to make is between you and the architect. You can still call entities from Oblivion.
If the Bargain is forced to move, banish it instead.  

Chess-Entity Correspondence
As it stands, the resolution is meant to be played out with chess pieces, using all 32 pieces.
PieceBlackWhite
PawnCurseBoon
Kingthe ShadowManifest Destiny
QueenDevil's BargainThree Fates
KnightCosmic IronyLurker on the Threshold
BishopGolden Liethe Weaver
RookRavenous ManBlind Warrior

[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Title: Break my system
Post by: Stargate525 on August 19, 2011, 04:38:44 PM
It's awfully complex. I do like the idea of a pool of actions like that, but wonder if the chessboard itself could be implemented somehow.

For example, perhaps each player gets a token, which the Architect keeps on the board in front of him. Each player can move his piece, or do one of the other actions, and threats/removals from the board affect the balance?
Title: Break my system
Post by: Superfluous Crow on August 20, 2011, 12:44:46 AM
I think the basic movement rules are fairly intuitive, but I agree that some of the Entities come off as a bit complex. The Golden Lie is a major offender.
Yet I don't think it is quite as complex as it looks at first glance. Many of the figures have rather basic abilities at their core: The Ravenous Man destroys entities, the Blind Warrior moves them, the Irony turns the Balance etc.

The basic idea lying behind the system was that of the entities. The chess pieces were added to the mix later.
One could probably mke a similar system using a chess board (there are still 10 days left of the contest!), but I think it would make e.g. the Shadow more difficult to implement and less dramatic (since it affects everybody equally). Also, I think using a chessboard would make the resolution too central a part of the game since everybody would have their attention focussed on it. Instead of playing PnP with chess you'd be playing chess with PnP.

Basically, people start with a zero Balance and must spend Strands to succeed at anything. This gives the Architect more resources for disrupting the PC's in later rounds. As the game progresses, some person will accrue three black entities and the Shadow will probably come into play shortly after. Then the special entities will be called upon to move and finally banish it, at which point all players will be low on Boons as Manifest Destiny banishes both the Shadow and Boons.  

My hope is that there is a countermove to any move. You can see it like this: the Architect sets up a small puzzle and the player must then solve it to succeed. I added the chaining move to give the Architect a little more control over the playing field.

I realize I forgot to put a limit on the Manifest Destiny... That was always the plan, so I will have to think on that.
Also, I'm unsure whether the Man should cancel the Shadow.
My major concern though is whether there is a good balance between good and bad outcomes or one outweighs the other.
Title: Break my system
Post by: Stargate525 on August 20, 2011, 02:15:54 AM
Just because we're using a chessboard (theoretically) doesn't mean the game would look anything like an actual game of chess. If each player had their own token, there would be anomalous pieces on the board; the pieces wouldn't move like real pieces, etcetera. I do understand where you're coming from, though, so that does make sense.

It's just... to me, the notion of a chess-piece-based system seems to call for a board or playing field of some kind. Otherwise, it's just a lineup of random pieces in front of the player instead of a pile of dice. This system also seems to encourage team backstabbing. Ie, I'll swap the Shadow over to you because it benefits me, and to hell with the consequences. This doesn't encourage a team-like atmosphere. The board would solve that, as it allows the Architect to pick on multiple players at once. Say that instead of the shadow affecting the holding player, it affects everyone it threatens. Okay, then a player might make a counter-productive move, intentionally falling under the shadow, but releasing another, more important player to succeed at something.

...But that's not what you're asking for. My apologies for derailing it. As it stands, the mechanic for actually acquiring boons and curses seems absent. In addition, I think the 'chaining' mechanic should be called 'locking' or something similar. At current, it more associates me with connection, rather than imprisonment. I think it would be cool to give players the ability to actually chain two pieces together, so that if one is affected, the other is too (both pieces are swapped, for instance). This would add a layer of strategy, allowing players to concoct a setup that could radically change the board very, very easily.

There's a fatal flaw with the Three Fates. Since that can be used at any time, what's preventing a player from summoning it, using two moves, then using the third to pass on the Three Fates to the next player, who then makes his two moves, passes it on, etcetera? This would be a strand-free way to basically load the Architect with curses, or on-the-fly swap the players' entire collection of boons to the player who needs it at the time.
Title: Break my system
Post by: Superfluous Crow on August 20, 2011, 02:54:37 AM
To answer some of your questions:
Boons and Curses can be called from Oblivion (Manifest Destiny and the Ravenous Man are wont to send Boons/Curses to that place) or traded for more powerful pieces (say you don't want the Ravenous Man anymore; swap him for a more manageable Curse).
Although the Three Fates can be moved, you can only perform three free moves for every time it is called. So transferring it another player would not give that player any additional moves; it would in fact just waste a move. Also, a player must pay three white entities for it, meaning he can only just restore himself to status quo by using the free moves.
Also, loading the Architect with curses is not necessarily a good idea. 8 communal curses is just as bad, if not worse, than the Shadow.  

I begin to see some merit in using an actual chessboard, but I'm still afraid that it would take too much focus away from the game itself. As to the backstabbing, that is entirely true, but that's basically the premise of the system: there is a finite amount of good and bad fortune and you must collectively make the best of it. You are not actively backstabbing, it's just the only way to have an impact on the resolution. You know the others aren't doing it out of malice, but out of necessity.
Also, I don't find your "pile of dice" comparison to be especially apt. When not actively rolled dice have no inherent meaning in most games. In this variant, your tapestry actually gives you a hint about your future as well as your next move.

I think I'm going to remove the clause stating that remaining curses/boons should be given to the Architect. This delays the entry of the Shadow unecessarily. Although it does give the architect something to exchange with. I'm probably going to clarify that you cannot make exchanges with Oblivion.  
As for Manifest Destiny, I think I will include the limitation that he only returns to oblivion if he is the last entity in your tapestry. Or maybe just last white/black entity? This should prevent people from overusing him.

EDIT: About the chessboard, the Shadow could be easily implemented as an "actual" shadow; if there is a straight line between you and it, you are screwed. I can't see how Boons/Curses would be handled though. Perhaps simple proximity? Hmm, maybe the Architect can move one figure for every figure you move?
Title: Break my system
Post by: Stargate525 on August 20, 2011, 09:20:58 AM
Quote from: Superfluous CrowAlthough the Three Fates can be moved, you can only perform three free moves for every time it is called. So transferring it another player would not give that player any additional moves; it would in fact just waste a move. Also, a player must pay three white entities for it, meaning he can only just restore himself to status quo by using the free moves.
Also, loading the Architect with curses is not necessarily a good idea. 8 communal curses is just as bad, if not worse, than the Shadow.

That isn't the way it read to me. It reads as a per-player per summon thing. You might want to make that a bit clearer.

Quote from: Superfluous CrowI begin to see some merit in using an actual chessboard, but I'm still afraid that it would take too much focus away from the game itself. As to the backstabbing, that is entirely true, but that's basically the premise of the system: there is a finite amount of good and bad fortune and you must collectively make the best of it. You are not actively backstabbing, it's just the only way to have an impact on the resolution. You know the others aren't doing it out of malice, but out of necessity.
I do get that, but the only way to know that for sure is to playtest. *shrugs*

Quote from: Superfluous CrowEDIT: About the chessboard, the Shadow could be easily implemented as an "actual" shadow; if there is a straight line between you and it, you are screwed. I can't see how Boons/Curses would be handled though. Perhaps simple proximity? Hmm, maybe the Architect can move one figure for every figure you move?
Right. In that case, make it the queen, and use its normal threat areas. Not everything needs to be on the board; I think boons and curses would be best handled off-board as a sort of counter. In this variant, I would give Players control over the boons (with some piece power exceptions), and the Architect controls the curses. This makes the game naturally fall into teamwork against the Architect.
Title: Break my system
Post by: O Senhor Leetz on August 20, 2011, 11:15:32 AM
I'll have to admit, it reads as confusing, but then again, I'm not the best at reading rules. I'm sure if I used the system, I would be able to understand it much better.

that being said, the flavor is great. the names of all the pieces are spot on (the only thing I would suggest is maybe change the name of Curses to Bane, I just like the double B of Boons and Banes, plus a Curse seems to imply something permanent).

If you wanted to go the extra mile, tie the system into the games "leveling system" itself. Certain feats or perks or whatever you could call them, I'm sure you could think of a great name to tie it into the system, maybe "Prophecies" or "Things Yet to Pass", would award players either a positive or neutral balance to their base number of entities.

For example, after a certain amount of playing or levels or whatever you may have, allow the players to chose from a list of these perks to augment their base total. Choosing, off the top of my head here, something called "...And I Have Gazed into the Abyss", would could give you the ability to manipulate the Shadow somehow while forcing you to have extra Curses.