I've been watching lots of Asian horror themed movies and Japanese TV shows lately, some of it gets pretty dark. Imprint from Takeshi Miike goes too far with child molestation, aborted fetuses,. and the graphic side of prostitution.
Such concepts as a woman's ghost who had been a rape victim and committed suicide, and spirit possession and inhabitance of a child (thus slaying the child in the process) by a witch prior to her execution, are story concepts I am considering for future adventure ideas.
Asian horror looks into subjects that are often too uncomfortable for the west. I want to bring some of those dark concepts into Kaidan, but I don't want to go too far.
I could see a one-off product that's rated NC17 or something similar on the cover, that explores some very adult, dark horror concepts as a module set in Kaidan, but that is a very slippery slope.
How far is too far? Or, at what point are you 'have not crossed the line of going too far'?
GP
I had a conversation with Sparkletwist about going over the line with things like this. She made a very valid point, it strongly depends on the individuals who are playing the game. I think if you were to do this you would have to do it as a separate module for Kaidan with a clear warning that it contained very dark content (giving a few examples) and to not purchase unless you were mature enough to handle such things. I know I would have no issue with such things but I know people who would be deeply offended by a phantom rape victim or murder of children, etc.
Also keep in mind that even if you include a warning, there is still a strong chance that Little Timmy Christian will still buy it and get offended and talk shit all over the internet. I wouldn't go very far in a product for sale unless that was the focus of it and / or I was positive it was going to the right market.
Personally? I have yet to find "too dark". More recent experience tells me that I get more enjoyment from stuff that's really fucked up and goes much further than other stuff. Maybe that's all that still feels new and unexplored to me, I don't know.
Well, you already have a relatively small market
1. People who play Pathfinder/3.5
2. People who buy 3PP for (1)
3. People who like Japanese settings
4. People who know about and buy your Japanese setting.
The question is if this type of product appeals to your current customers or if it broadens your appeal or if it cheapens your brand (eg. Kaidan gets a 'bad reputation'...people complain about it on the boards as unsavoury and therefore people don't even buy your regular material).
As for rape themes- Carrion Crown episode 1 from Paizo brushes on that if I recall correctly.
As for child endangerment- Paizo at least seems to have a policy against this, probably based on complaints from purchasers, but if you look at things like Grimm's Fairy Tales, which were told to all children in the West until probably the 1940s, you could probably use that as a guideline for what might be acceptable.
>>spirit possession and inhabitance of a child (thus slaying the child in the process) by a witch prior to her execution
Frankly I don't even think that rates a PG-13 rating. I remember reading ghost stories in the Childrens section of the library worse than that when I was in 2nd grade. But that would have been banned by Paizo. Apparently when children are involved, people can become very upset, for whatever reason.
The real question isn't how 'dark' is too dark...since a lot of people apparently enjoyed the cartoon Spawn movie, but how this will affect your market and your target audience.
As Nomadic said about his conversation with Sparkletwist, it strongly depends on who is playing. There's also a fine line between using gore/horrifying events to add to the horror feel and turning a campaign into a gore-fest, although there are some exceptions that use it liberally and still pull off that creepy atmosphere (Dead Space).
The point where it's too far to me seems to be not necessarily when an event, set piece, plot hook, etc. becomes very gruesome and awful, but rather is when these situations come about far too often. You will probably want to contrast the darker elements of a module/campaign with more faceless horror or with elements that aren't horror at all - the polarity between such things can make a game pretty haunting if done right.
The most horrific thing I've done in a campaign in the past few years that was actually very upfront and visible to the players (as opposed to more subtle things like you might see in the X-Files or some Lovecraft) was in a darker FR game I ran; a necromancer linked to one of the primary villains in the campaign was abducting and experimenting on children, which resulted in battles with a few undead ones that still sounded and looked like they would if they were alive.
Spent some time trying to make it back from the dark side.
hard to leave, truth be told, because over here, we got cookies.
My advice it to make it module specific. Make it clear in the master books that the game, setting, and the game aids run the gamut, but minimize any need of those modules to run the game. Hell, i'd go steer clear enough to make sure any of those modules at least seemed to be from a different source (i.e., create a fictional/legal vendor id to create the dark stuff)
I deal a lot with the dark side of power; the effect that magic would really have in a world were 5% of the population can 'touch the void', and the synergistic effects of political and personal power that sets people over other people. Historically, the Oix Quomedie (New Police) and other historical or current groups have very strong prejudice towards those of who cannot 'touch the void', and even the current Collegium Arcana uses slang such 'DerrixBog' (Mud Cattle) to refer to those who cannot cast.
And the current Empire of Argus, as well as some other older empires, have huge slave and indentured underclasses.
Said power invariably leads, in certain games with the proper mix of players, to a darker game. My Igbar game, when the undead started erupting in the streets of Igbar, took on a macabre tone with the group coming into an orphanage and finding the remains of a slaughter, zombie children, adult nurses hung from hooks on the walls, etc.
Horror, sex, and violence can trigger strong roleplaying/emotional responses...when not overused. When the game in any way makes them mundane, the repsonse can become muted.
Too often is probably the line. If one adventure is about a rape, the next a murder, the next dead babies and kittens...then it gets old.
Strangely, Jonathan McAnulty, who is my lead designer/author is a Christian preacher. In the Gift, the first adventure, there's a Pool of Dead Children. A serial killer (through a tamashinaki - human body controlled by an elemental spirit) has been kidnapping children, murdering them, then dumping them into a pond in the mountains. The PCs get attacked by zombie children from the pool.
In adventure 2, Dim Spirit, the PCs will run into that serial killer with an opportunity to kill this fiend.
So even the primary intro adventures now have dark concepts and no rating - except having earned 8 each 5 star ratings...
So there's some latitude, apparently.
GP
I think there's a lot of latitude. Have a look at the comics world, a comparable, often-overlapping branch of geekdom. Thumb through an issue or two of Preacher or Transmetropolitan or Hellblazer or even some of Sandman (Sin City would also be a great example, what with the attempted rapes, pedophilia, prostitution, cannibalism, abuse, and extremely graphic violence). Some of that stuff is dark as pitch, but all of them are very popular and have multiple industry awards. None of them shy away from taboo themes, and some unabashedly revel in them. They have much more to them than simple shock value, but the dark tone is vitally necessary to give them their particular grotesque frisson. I don't think there's any particular reason to surmise that roleplayers as a group are less tolerant of dark stuff than comic book readers.
Quote from: Gamer PrintshopStrangely, Jonathan McAnulty, who is my lead designer/author is a Christian preacher. In the Gift, the first adventure, there's a Pool of Dead Children. A serial killer (through a tamashinaki - human body controlled by an elemental spirit) has been kidnapping children, murdering them, then dumping them into a pond in the mountains. The PCs get attacked by zombie children from the pool.
That is strange. It's always slightly refreshing to encounter someone that considers themselves Christian and doesn't use that as an excuse for extreme sensitivity or outright ignorance. I once had someone tell me they could not tolerate "cursing" because they were a "good Christian person".
Quote from: Ninja D!Quote from: Gamer PrintshopStrangely, Jonathan McAnulty, who is my lead designer/author is a Christian preacher. In the Gift, the first adventure, there's a Pool of Dead Children. A serial killer (through a tamashinaki - human body controlled by an elemental spirit) has been kidnapping children, murdering them, then dumping them into a pond in the mountains. The PCs get attacked by zombie children from the pool.
That is strange. It's always slightly refreshing to encounter someone that considers themselves Christian and doesn't use that as an excuse for extreme sensitivity or outright ignorance. I once had someone tell me they could not tolerate "cursing" because they were a "good Christian person".
On a related note I myself ascribe to the christian faith (perhaps a bit of irony in the admin of a roleplay site being a christian). The honest christians out there from what I've seen, are the ones that don't take offense easily and don't judge or put others down for not believing what they do or doing things they don't agree with. Those who go around shouting brimstone and fire on the unbeliever or calling someone a horrible sinner as if they themselves haven't sinned just as much aren't christians anymore than the terrorists blowing people up "in the name of god" are muslims. They're misusing a belief for their own selfish desires not out of any want to better themselves spiritually or otherwise.
I mostly like a dark (to an extent, I don't want to be overwhelmed with it).
But Light Dragon makes a really important point about further limiting your audience. Unless your fan base is already very large, you probably cannot afford to split them. And while the module may appeal to some of your existing fans, I think it's unlikely to bring in new ones--that is, I don't think anyone would by the setting simply because it has a NC-17 module, but some who buy the setting might not buy the module because it is NC-17.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Ninja D!Quote from: Gamer PrintshopStrangely, Jonathan McAnulty, who is my lead designer/author is a Christian preacher. In the Gift, the first adventure, there's a Pool of Dead Children. A serial killer (through a tamashinaki - human body controlled by an elemental spirit) has been kidnapping children, murdering them, then dumping them into a pond in the mountains. The PCs get attacked by zombie children from the pool.
That is strange. It's always slightly refreshing to encounter someone that considers themselves Christian and doesn't use that as an excuse for extreme sensitivity or outright ignorance. I once had someone tell me they could not tolerate "cursing" because they were a "good Christian person".
On a related note I myself ascribe to the christian faith (perhaps a bit of irony in the admin of a roleplay site being a christian). The honest christians out there from what I've seen, are the ones that don't take offense easily and don't judge or put others down for not believing what they do or doing things they don't agree with. Those who go around shouting brimstone and fire on the unbeliever or calling someone a horrible sinner as if they themselves haven't sinned just as much aren't christians anymore than the terrorists blowing people up "in the name of god" are muslims. They're misusing a belief for their own selfish desires not out of any want to better themselves spiritually or otherwise.
I think it was Ghandi that said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ." Or something along those lines. It's sad how far the ideal things are and have always been. I've had a number of good friends that considered themselves Christian.
Actually, a Morman I went to school with is why I never became one of thos outright haters of religion. Morman beliefs are probably the most out there and even crazy but, for the most part, they are the nicest people you will ever meet.
/derail
From a purely business perspective, it might be better to divorce such modules from any setting/other product lines and instead design them as generic standalone products. Then you could aim for the niche of horror-interested customers at large. Although you would not be able to exploit the renown of an established brand, you also would not be constrained by it.
Quote from: GhostmanFrom a purely business perspective, it might be better to divorce such modules from any setting/other product lines and instead design them as generic standalone products. Then you could aim for the niche of horror-interested customers at large. Although you would not be able to exploit the renown of an established brand, you also would not be constrained by it.
Going with this idea, a section could even be included explaining things that could be changed to make it fully a Kaidan adventure.
Quote from: GhostmanFrom a purely business perspective, it might be better to divorce such modules from any setting/other product lines and instead design them as generic standalone products. Then you could aim for the niche of horror-interested customers at large. Although you would not be able to exploit the renown of an established brand, you also would not be constrained by it.
pretty much sums up what I said above.
On the flip side of "will this scare customers away," I think that potentially, dark stuff can attract a larger fanbase, or a section that might otherwise pass you by. Just thinking of myself, if I saw a module on a shelf that just looked like a Japanese mythology/history-based RPG, I would probably pass it by. If I saw a module advertising itself as a Japanese horror-based RPG, I might take a look, and if I then saw that the module had some seriously messed up content - as well as looking well put-together, professional, etc - I'd be far more intrigued than if I'd found some tame, tepid attempt at horror (whoo it's a yurei, spoooky!). Pool of Dead Children? Wait a second, this designer has some guts!
Just speaking as an individual; I have no marketing training whatsoever. Just random thoughts.
Quote from: SteerpikeOn the flip side of "will this scare customers away," I think that potentially, dark stuff can attract a larger fanbase, or a section that might otherwise pass you by. Just thinking of myself, if I saw a module on a shelf that just looked like a Japanese mythology/history-based RPG, I would probably pass it by. If I saw a module advertising itself as a Japanese horror-based RPG, I might take a look, and if I then saw that the module had some seriously messed up content - as well as looking well put-together, professional, etc - I'd be far more intrigued than if I'd found some tame, tepid attempt at horror (whoo it's a yurei, spoooky!). Pool of Dead Children? Wait a second, this designer has some guts!
Just speaking as an individual; I have no marketing training whatsoever. Just random thoughts.
As someone who does have a bit of marketing training I'd agree with you on this Steerpike. Doing separate modules like this can widen your potential fan base. And remember, Kaidan is supposed to be horror anyhow so darkening it up won't discomfort people as much as darkening up a classical fantasy setting would. They're already going into it expecting at least some degree of horror. All you're offering them here is a module that turns the horror dial to 11.
Well, I'm just exploring the idea of doing something really dark.
For the time being, the setting is plenty dark without having to cross the line. There are plenty of mature subjects, however, everything is treated lightly with a vagueness. I don't have to specify the gore, I think giving subtle hints, makes things more horrifying when the realization by the player as to what's really going on is left up to their imaginations. I don't have to be explicit, I merely have to touch upon the subject, suggest in minimal terms what the viewer sees.
I don't want to revel in the darkness. Also I don't want to overbear the dark implications. There is plenty of opportunity for nomral adventuring, monster slaying, treasure finding, interspersed with dark elements.
GP
Quote from: Gamer PrintshopI don't want to revel in the darkness. Also I don't want to overbear the dark implications. There is plenty of opportunity for nomral adventuring, monster slaying, treasure finding, interspersed with dark elements.
True but remember if you're doing a module that's something separate of the main setting itself and if said module's focus was to be horrific then you sort of do want to revel a little bit in the dark. having "normal adventuring, monster slaying, treasure finding, etc" is fine but it would be a bit bland I think if you didn't put some of that on the back burner from time to time to let other aspects (in this case horror) shine out.