I have a notion to make Fire a living thing in my campaign world. I got the idea from a priesthood I was designing that consulted the temple fire when faced with a problem with no clear solution. Then I wondered, what if the Fire talked back? Since my magic system does not allow for Communication with inanimate objects I got the idea to give Fire consciousness. I am not certain why I keep capitalizing the word Fire, but it's too late to stop now.
It's born, it propagates, and it dies. Fire breathes, consumes, and excretes ashes. On the surface, it's simply a non-corporeal being of energy. However, there are some logistical issues to consider. The simplest torch could wind up setting loose an angry beast indoors. Hearths and camp fires could easily become death traps. It would fundamentally alter mankind's relationship with Fire. What would it fear? What does it want or need, other then kindlin'? What would make it angry and cause it to run wild?
These are some possibilities:
1. Fires started by natural causes (lightning strikes, lava flows) spark a Fire that is wild in nature and cannot be tamed. It will consume as much and grow as large as it can as quickly as it can. Kind of like a stampede. This is also holds true for existing Fires that are introduced to an accelerant, Greek Fire, flaming arrows, etc.
2. Fires started in a ritual space will take on aspects of the space's intended use. For example, Fire in the temple of a god dedicated to altruism and healing will house a tame and benign fire while those sparked in a secret room used to summon demons might produce a Fire that is malicious and violent if not properly contained.
3. Domesticated fires? If a family or village uses the same fire, and keeps it burning then the Fire might develop an affinity for the populace. It won't burn their houses. It won't wander beyond its boundaries.
4. Simple magics that compel Fire to live where it is intended. For example, a lamp with runes that hold a fire in its place, and as long as the lamp or the Fire's fuel is not in jeopardy the Fire will contently burn.
5. Fire can be communicated with using the right spells, and as long as a Fire burns it retains all that it surveys. This goes back to the original idea of the temple fire. If the Fire burned in the temple for hundreds of years it could have been witness to countless religious debates, ceremonies, and the like. A tremendous source of wisdom and information.
If you all have any ideas I would to love to hear them. I really like the idea, but I am not sure it's worth the trouble.
Someone once told me, a long time ago, about an acronym that lists things that define a what a living thing is. I don't remember the acronym, but it was things like growth, feeding, reproduction, etc. The guy said that, with fairly open definitions of some of those things, the acronym did apply to fire, and therefore it was, in his mind, a living thing.
Hehe, Kindling was the first to come to the Fire.
Anyway, of those life characteristics I think one of them is homeostasis which basically means you have to keep your body's temperature and chemical balance constant. If anything, fire does the opposite of that?
That has nothing to do with this question though, so my apologies. I like how your mention of accelerants sort of implies that certain chemicals makes fire go mad. I think you need to establish exactly what the fire is. How intelligent is it? Is it a hive collective of thousands upon thousands of embers or is it all one flame, one thought?
Is it even locomotive? I could imagine fire as perhaps a sort of flailing amorphous tentacled creature (I will never look at my fireplace the same way again...), but just like we humans can't stand on a slippery incline perhaps the flames can't get a foothold on anything non-flammable. Essentially, as long as you keep them properly contained they pose no harm. They might be more mobile than this, but that would definitely change a lot! Domestication or magic seems like a "reasonable" way to go about controlling them in that case.
I feel like this would have a fairy tale-ish influence on your setting's tone.
This could be really cool. You could always have fire and then Fire - the former being mundane, unliving fire, the latter some kind of awakened/magical/divine fire - perhaps only created when a certain type of wood is burned, like wood from a sentient and/or holy tree, or perhaps only created when fuel is burnt in the proper enchanted/blessed hearth.
Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Hehe, Kindling was the first to come to the Fire.
Anyway, of those life characteristics I think one of them is homeostasis which basically means you have to keep your body's temperature and chemical balance constant. If anything, fire does the opposite of that?
That has nothing to do with this question though, so my apologies. I like how your mention of accelerants sort of implies that certain chemicals makes fire go mad. I think you need to establish exactly what the fire is. How intelligent is it? Is it a hive collective of thousands upon thousands of embers or is it all one flame, one thought?
Is it even locomotive? I could imagine fire as perhaps a sort of flailing amorphous tentacled creature (I will never look at my fireplace the same way again...), but just like we humans can't stand on a slippery incline perhaps the flames can't get a foothold on anything non-flammable. Essentially, as long as you keep them properly contained they pose no harm. They might be more mobile than this, but that would definitely change a lot! Domestication or magic seems like a "reasonable" way to go about controlling them in that case.
I feel like this would have a fairy tale-ish influence on your setting's tone.
I had given thought to locomotion already. I had determined that it cannot pass over anything that is not "fuel". When it does pass over fuel it can grow or it can simply cross over it. Other thoughts:
Attributes: No strength since it is insubstantial, highly dextrous, animal intelligence (varies), and hit points are based entirely on size (I haven't come up with a suitable range yet).
Combat: Can lash out and do torch damage or greater (depending on size again). Cannot be harmed by weapons, insubstantial. Can be smothered, blown out, drowned, and takes direct damage from water. Causes burn damage and can throw fire causing damage or creating other fires. Can choose not to burn fuel and can suppress heat. This last entry is limited to very old fires.
Locomotion: As mentioned, fire can pass over fuels, consuming them or not. Unless it has gone "wild" the fire creeps along very slowly. When frightened or enraged it can leap up to half its size in distance and can "run" very fast. A 20' fire at its base could leap 10'. In no case can it move across water, nor would it want to. Only wild fires would even attempt to cross water of any size.
Temperment: Fires created in a controlled setting would take on characteristics of that setting in regards to the powers that be. Fires started purposefully are more calm than others, in the beginning. Fires started by a violent ignition start off wild: lightning strikes, flaming arrows striking a wall, fireball spells, explosions, etc. Fires that are exposed to an accelerant go wild unless a Will check can be passed at -4. Fire threatened by water of any kind will react poorly. This could range from cowering to fleeing at the greatest possible speed (wild) or attacking (wild). A Will check required to avoid going wild with bonuses for elder fires. If a wild fire is cornered on all sides and becomes exceptionally enraged or frightened then it can "push" itself and grow in intensity. This cannot go on for very long, and ultimately will result in the fire blowing itself out. Wild fires can also cause other fires to "stampede" unless a Will check is made. The fire does not do this consciously.
Consciousness: The syntactic magic system has four Nouns groups Corporeal (including Beast), Ethereal (Consciousness), Energy (including Fire), and Matter. Fire falls within all of them except for Matter. Since it has a consciousness it has memories, thoughts, etc. It does not, however, have eyes. It can sense thru the Ethereal, and as a result any one who Communes with Fire will have the same information. The fire cannot show you what the room looked like or smelled like or even what could be heard. But you could sense other living things that were near the fire and know what they said, what they heard, and sometimes even what they were thinking (depending on your skill level with the spell).
A fire is defined as a single entity derived from a single spark. If a fire should split it would become 2 separate fires with the larger of them retaining the identity of the first. If two fires combine only the dominant fire would carry on and add the second fire to itself in the physical and the Ethereal. For example, in a tradition where a recently deceased person's "fire" was taken to the temple and added to the eternal flame then the eternal flame would take in the smaller and younger fire along with its Ethereal impressions (allowing magic capable descendants to come to the temple and commune with their ancestors). Two fires of equal strength and age could simply pass thru each other, but if a battle for control breaks out then both fires go wild and a contest of wills would erupt (almost literally).
I have also toyed with the idea of allowing personality traits for fires much like some games do for animals. I am uncertain. Also, unlike other Beasts fire can be bound into an item like Energy.
Quote from: Steerpike
This could be really cool. You could always have fire and then Fire - the former being mundane, unliving fire, the latter some kind of awakened/magical/divine fire - perhaps only created when a certain type of wood is burned, like wood from a sentient and/or holy tree, or perhaps only created when fuel is burnt in the proper enchanted/blessed hearth.
That is true. Then I wouldn't have to worry about Farmer John burning down his barn because he was foolish enough to carry a torch out into the rain. I could limit the number of "ascended" fires. That would solve a lot of problems. I am almost certainly going to incorporate your idea, but I want to think on it first. Thanks Steerpike.
What about the other elements?
In many systems, there might be a system/setting dissoncance created.
Any system where fire is used in magic (like a D&D fireball) will be affected thus.
One possibility: the first Fire was brought by a Promethean deity or something, and all other Fires are its spawn, Olympic torch style. Other fires can be made, but they're not sentient: only fires started by the divine First Fire are Fires.
Quote from: LordVreeg
What about the other elements?
In many systems, there might be a system/setting dissoncance created.
Any system where fire is used in magic (like a D&D fireball) will be affected thus.
The other elements are covered under the Noun group called Matter. It will be either Air, Water, and Earth or Gas, Liquid, and Solid (with scientific skills governing what a caster can and cannot do). Matter also covers Plant/Wood. If anything, to describe the system in a classical elemental format the elements would be Air, Earth, Water, and Plant.
Only things with a consciousness can be Communed with. I don't want spell casters communing with rocks and walls. Living plants, on the other hand, do exist in the Ethereal, and they can be communicated with via spell.
The "element" system of the Celts (insofar as it existed) might be useful here. The Celts did not have "elements" per se, but our understanding of the four elements relates in Celtic life as follows:
Earth, water, and air, or "Land, Sea, and Sky" represented three different worlds. They were similar in that they were large spans you could move across or through. Fire was different to them, though. Fire was a sacred thing that connected them.
There were also ritual fire festivals, wherein all the fires in the land would be extinguished and re-kindled from the burning branches from a giant bonfire in the center of the kingdom. This sounds like it fits in with the idea that only certain fires lit from an enchanted fire (or the first fire) are "Fires" and have life of their own.
Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium
The "element" system of the Celts (insofar as it existed) might be useful here. The Celts did not have "elements" per se, but our understanding of the four elements relates in Celtic life as follows:
Earth, water, and air, or "Land, Sea, and Sky" represented three different worlds. They were similar in that they were large spans you could move across or through. Fire was different to them, though. Fire was a sacred thing that connected them.
There were also ritual fire festivals, wherein all the fires in the land would be extinguished and re-kindled from the burning branches from a giant bonfire in the center of the kingdom. This sounds like it fits in with the idea that only certain fires lit from an enchanted fire (or the first fire) are "Fires" and have life of their own.
That fits perfectly. I have decided to have "ascendant" fires that were started by the gods themselves; in a distant age when gods walked the earth. Your last point will hold true in one faith that has "fires" in each of its temples. Each of these fires carries the consciousness of the original "fire", but it cannot reproduce new "fires".
I also have toyed with "fire" being an ethereal being and "connecting" people, as you suggested. Thanks.
I have an overview of what I have so far, and I will post it momentarily...
I will try to be brief...
Fire is a living thing, but it is unintelligent and lacks will, of any kind. It acts and behaves just as fire, as we know it, does. It exists in the ethereal as a "divine spark" and is associated with all Divine Facets: Light, Truth, Love, Purity, Creation, Thought, Ascension, and Order (as a piece of the puzzle).
However, there are two kinds of fire that do possess a higher consciousness and a will. The fires started by the Ethebians in the First Age of man when gods walked the earth. These fires are called Ascendant fires. They can breed other lesser ascendant fires, can commune with spellcasters, and have a will and sentience of their own. Once they are extinguished they cannot be relit. However, on ancient "fire" sites a sizable and pious group of followers can rekindle an ascendant flame, but it will have lost all memories and skills. There are a number of ascendant fires still burning, and there are sanctified sites where the fires have gone out.
The second kind of sentient fire is an "awakened" flame. The magical system is identical to the "spells" used by the gods, but the only differences are humans have limited knowledge and fatigue to power the spells in question. Fire produced by spells of any type (divine, demonic, or magical) can produce a fire with a consciousness on a critical failure/success (depending on the effect desired). These fires are totally autonomous and can reproduce other awakened fires. Divine fires will manifest personalities consistent with their deity. Magical fires are "wild" fires and must be contained. Demonic fires are completely docile, and they are a channel to the demonic hierarchy.
I will use many of the same rules I have outlined above regarding accelerants, natural fires, etc. I have a list of the sites, and some examples of their uses, but I will post them a bit later. I am drunk, and I am afraid I am not making any sense.
Why are demonic fires so docile?
Quote from: Ghostman
Why are demonic fires so docile?
[/quoQuote from: Ghostman
Why are demonic fires so docile?
Because the demon's reach is limited. The fire does afford a bonus to commune, summon, and gate, but the fire lacks an intelligence. It can go "wild", but it serves a "lower" purpose.
Quote from: Porklet
Quote from: LordVreeg
What about the other elements?
In many systems, there might be a system/setting dissoncance created.
Any system where fire is used in magic (like a D&D fireball) will be affected thus.
The other elements are covered under the Noun group called Matter. It will be either Air, Water, and Earth or Gas, Liquid, and Solid (with scientific skills governing what a caster can and cannot do). Matter also covers Plant/Wood. If anything, to describe the system in a classical elemental format the elements would be Air, Earth, Water, and Plant.
Only things with a consciousness can be Communed with. I don't want spell casters communing with rocks and walls. Living plants, on the other hand, do exist in the Ethereal, and they can be communicated with via spell.
I meant what gaming system. You can overlay as much setting as you want, but the physics engine will eventually take over.
What happens when an Ascendant fire and an awakened fire (divine, demonic, what-have-you) meet?
Quote from: LordVreeg
Quote from: Porklet
Quote from: LordVreeg
What about the other elements?
In many systems, there might be a system/setting dissoncance created.
Any system where fire is used in magic (like a D&D fireball) will be affected thus.
The other elements are covered under the Noun group called Matter. It will be either Air, Water, and Earth or Gas, Liquid, and Solid (with scientific skills governing what a caster can and cannot do). Matter also covers Plant/Wood. If anything, to describe the system in a classical elemental format the elements would be Air, Earth, Water, and Plant.
Only things with a consciousness can be Communed with. I don't want spell casters communing with rocks and walls. Living plants, on the other hand, do exist in the Ethereal, and they can be communicated with via spell.
I meant what gaming system. You can overlay as much setting as you want, but the physics engine will eventually take over.
A syntactic magic system in GURPS. It can use the existing spells as a guide, and it probably will. I don't think I understand what you mean by dissoncance. Of course, it could be because I was drinking for the first time in months that night.
Quote from: Steerpike
What happens when an Ascendant fire and an awakened fire (divine, demonic, what-have-you) meet?
The Ascendant fire can control an Awakened fire much like a spellcaster can attempt to control an elemental. It can also "imprint" memories on other fires. I am still working on the mechanics.
If it comes into contact with a Descendant (demonic) flame then confrontation is inevitable, vicious, and fatal (for at least one of the combatants).
Quote from: Ghostman
Why are demonic fires so docile?
After further review, demonic (or Descendant) flames are not docile at all. They may appear to be in order to lull the demonologist into a false sense of security, but they are patient, malicious, and cunning.