I'm currently in the process of creating a steampunk setting and as such I could use some help from the good people here. Instead of schools of magic, I would like to have disciplines that serve the same function. Obviously the disciplines have a tech base, but I can only think of a few. They are: Chemistry, Steam, Magnetism, Clockwork, Electricity, Ballistics, Metallurgy, and Explosives. Any further suggestions would be welcome.
Also, I am currently in the process of working on the setting fluff and a system. when I more of that I will post it.
How are you differentiating these schools of steam punk?
How realistic is the world? For example, can I build a steam-powered spaceship to sail the Luminiferous Aether? Can I build a miasma bomb? Can I reanimate the dead with a galvanic spark? Can I have my skull read by a phrenologist to determine my character?
Is there any kind of magic? If so, is it antithetical to science/technology (irrational, chaotic, wild, fey, whatever), or is it part and parcel of the physical, rational universe (or both, in different forms?)?
How advanced is the tech in general? 19th century? More advanced?
A few ideas of the top of my head: Aeronautics, Hydraulics, and Pneumatics.
How about bionics?
Some kind of biological engineering could perhaps be designed to fit with the general tone of steampunk.
... transdimensional mathematics? ... emergent philosophy?
There are a whole lot of untapped esoteric options depending on what steam-to-punk ratio you decide on.
Whats keeping these disciplines segregated from each other? Technology seems to need a cooperation between many disciplines in order for anything to work.
Do Steamers and Chemists have street-fights using piston-hammers and grenandes, respectively, over whose technology is better?
I have the feeling that scientist-heroes in this genre tend to be multidisciplinarian, crossing easily over very minimal boundaries between areas of specialty. I'm not sure dividing technology up into "schools of science" really serves your theme. (Not to mention the overlap-- it's hard to have explosives without chemistry, or ballistics without explosives and metallurgy, or arguably magnetism without both metallurgy and electricity, etc., etc. Some of these categories, I'm not sure what they'd do on their own.)
Have you considered, instead of dividing up technology into sections like this, letting scientist characters be generally competent across the board, with an additional area of extra proficiency? (i.e., if you have a character with a good science skill and a special focus in flying machines, for example, he's broadly competent at science but especially competent at building aircraft, regardless of what powers those craft.) I think you're more likely to conjure up images of Tesla or Da Vinci this way.
I don't think that SK is talking about a complete segregation. He mentions the similarity to schools of magic, and honestly, what is the last game of D&D you played where the wizard only knew spells from one school?
Yet I might be wrong?
I do wonder what you intend to do with this division of fields. Skills? "spell" lists? or are we talking genuine factions?
I can see the use of divided schools of technology if it ties the flavor of the setting with the mechanics. But as pure flavor, I don't think it would work well. Divided things into even little pieces always seemed very artificial to me. That being said, I'm also no fan of elemental magic or alignment charts for that very reason of artificialty, so I'm biased.
But your "schools" could be used to great affect between factions who technology going in different ways, electrical vs. steam, or ceramics vs. metallurgists.
Quote from: Elemental_Elf
How are you differentiating these schools of steam punk?
That is still up in the air. I mean I could go along the same lines as the traditional roles i.e. Clockwork = Conjuration, Magnetics = Abjuration, Explosives = Evocation, and so on. But the problem with that is, none of the disciplines that I have so far come up with fit neatly into single defined role. For example Magnetics could just as easily be evocation as abjuration. So long story short, I'm still trying to figure it out.
Quote from: Steerpike
How realistic is the world? For example, can I build a steam-powered spaceship to sail the Luminiferous Aether? Can I build a miasma bomb? Can I reanimate the dead with a galvanic spark? Can I have my skull read by a phrenologist to determine my character?
Is there any kind of magic? If so, is it antithetical to science/technology (irrational, chaotic, wild, fey, whatever), or is it part and parcel of the physical, rational universe (or both, in different forms?)?
How advanced is the tech in general? 19th century? More advanced?
A few ideas of the top of my head: Aeronautics, Hydraulics, and Pneumatics.
To answer your first question, about as realistic as a world with magic. As for your examples you could do any of those. Thanks for bringing up phrenology, I couldn't remember what that was called, but I know I want it in my setting.
I was thinking about having magic existing in the past but it either ceased to function or those who had arcane powers used them to subjugate and enslave those without them. Eventually the enslaved rose up and overthrew their arcane masters, destroying them and anything to do with the arcane. As you can read I am leaning towards the latter. I still might have arcane magic used as a power source, but I don't see a need to have magic (if I keep it) to be antithetical to tech.
As for your third question, I see the setting have very advance tech level but with a 19th century slant. For example you could have a steam powered starship (like your example above). Clockwork soldiers so advance they can think for themselves and so on.
I was thinking about aeronautics, I know do want to have ornithopters and zeppelins in the setting.
Quote from: ErebusRed
How about bionics?
Absolutely
Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Some kind of biological engineering could perhaps be designed to fit with the general tone of steampunk.
... transdimensional mathematics? ... emergent philosophy?
There are a whole lot of untapped esoteric options depending on what steam-to-punk ratio you decide on.
Your right, bio engineering could work. I am leaning far more to the fantastic side of the gene.
Quote from: Señor Leetz
Whats keeping these disciplines segregated from each other? Technology seems to need a cooperation between many disciplines in order for anything to work.
Do Steamers and Chemists have street-fights using piston-hammers and grenandes, respectively, over whose technology is better?
You are right, tech does need an understanding of other disciplines. I was just trying to create something for ease of use. Then again it is all up in the air as of right now. I have also been thinking about a system that requires several different skills to accomplish a task. For example to build a rail gun a PC would need to have access to the magnetism, ballistics, and metallurgy skill and achieve a certain level of mastery with each.
As for 2nd part, it would be more along the line of whose faction is better, and less of whose tech is better. If that makes sense.
Quote from: Luminous Crayon
I have the feeling that scientist-heroes in this genre tend to be multidisciplinarian, crossing easily over very minimal boundaries between areas of specialty. I'm not sure dividing technology up into "schools of science" really serves your theme. (Not to mention the overlap-- it's hard to have explosives without chemistry, or ballistics without explosives and metallurgy, or arguably magnetism without both metallurgy and electricity, etc., etc. Some of these categories, I'm not sure what they'd do on their own.)
Have you considered, instead of dividing up technology into sections like this, letting scientist characters be generally competent across the board, with an additional area of extra proficiency? (i.e., if you have a character with a good science skill and a special focus in flying machines, for example, he's broadly competent at science but especially competent at building aircraft, regardless of what powers those craft.) I think you're more likely to conjure up images of Tesla or Da Vinci this way.
You know I didn't think of that, but since you mention it, it is something to think about. If you look at the answer to the post above you will see the line I am thinking along right now.
Quote from: Superfluous Crow
I don't think that SK is talking about a complete segregation. He mentions the similarity to schools of magic, and honestly, what is the last game of D&D you played where the wizard only knew spells from one school?
Yet I might be wrong?
I do wonder what you intend to do with this division of fields. Skills? "spell" lists? or are we talking genuine factions?
No, you are not wrong. They are going to be more like skills. As for factions, the setting will have them, but each faction as access to a different skill set.
Quote from: Señor Leetz
I can see the use of divided schools of technology if it ties the flavor of the setting with the mechanics. But as pure flavor, I don't think it would work well. Divided things into even little pieces always seemed very artificial to me. That being said, I'm also no fan of elemental magic or alignment charts for that very reason of artificialty, so I'm biased.
But your "schools" could be used to great affect between factions who technology going in different ways, electrical vs. steam, or ceramics vs. metallurgists.
You are right, I could be a nice adding the bias to the factions that I am going to build.
So what is going to be the "unique factor" in your steampunk setting. What is going to set it apart?
Also, this thread has inspired me to start brainstorming on my own steampunk setting, a genre, that up until now, I've never really enjoyed that much.
Quote from: Señor Leetz
So what is going to be the "unique factor" in your steampunk setting. What is going to set it apart?
Also, this thread has inspired me to start brainstorming on my own steampunk setting, a genre, that up until now, I've never really enjoyed that much.
That is a good question and I'm sorry to say, that I don't have an answer for you. it is still up in the air. Have a few ideas:
Magic existed, and was used for centuries to dominate and enslave. The people then overthrew their arcane masters; destroying their tomes and places of power. They enjoyed in their new found freedom, but it was short lived. The people discovered that their former masters had woven powerful magics that changed the face of the land, sea, and sky. And without the wizards to maintain those magics, the world began to return to its natural state. Once fertile farm land turned to deserts, rivers changed their course, and dark creatures emerged form the forests.
In order to survive the people had to come up with new ways, new technology. Instead of sails; steam. Instead of arrows; bullets
I know that I will not be using the standard fantasy races. I don't know if I will have other races or how many there will be, but I know there will not be dwarves, elves, orcs, etc.
It is all still vague and rough, but it where I am currently going.
The idea of magic being overthrown and it created a sort of mini-apocalypse* is definitely something I could get behind - though I'm curious if it was completely eliminated or in some dark corners of the world secret cults hold on to ancient knowledge and intend on reviving the Old Way.
Also, if mages were so powerful they literally had changed the face of the world, how did the rest of the people get the power to overthrow them?
The one critique I have of this as what makes your setting unique is that it's history - for the players, if that's the primary unique factor, it's going to feel largely like classic steampunk with a more interesting backstory. It's hard being completely unique in steampunk without going way out there (stuff like Dragonmech, for example), and props for not going to the fallback of arcane vs. tech...maybe you could make it unique with the level of steampunk? Entirely clockwork cities that rival the grandeur of the mage's sanctums, or conversely, isolated settlements with ramshackle technology that's barely keeping them alive in the face of the landscape and re-emergence of dark creatures (neither of which I see commonly done in steampunk, though I'm sure someone has).
BTW, that last bit is another area ripe for exploration - what if the dark things wizards were holding back were, in fact, far worse than the Wizards themselves, and technology is now the only way to keep humanity/humanoidanity from falling to the danger they present?
*I'm completely in love with Apocalypses. Something's wrong with me.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
The idea of magic being overthrown and it created a sort of mini-apocalypse* is definitely something I could get behind - though I'm curious if it was completely eliminated or in some dark corners of the world secret cults hold on to ancient knowledge and intend on reviving the Old Way.
Magic is still around, just people who know how to use it are gone. Well for the most part. I can se a handful of mages escaping the purge. There will definitely be at least one group trying to revive the old ways.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Also, if mages were so powerful they literally had changed the face of the world, how did the rest of the people get the power to overthrow them?
Magic on that scale requires dozens of mages to perform and maintain. I only really see there being like 100 mages at most during that time.
A single mage, while still being very dangerous, can be overwhelmed if enough people attack him at once. I see magic requiring a lot of personal energy and concentration to perform. After while a mage just gets tapped out.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
The one critique I have of this as what makes your setting unique is that it's history - for the players, if that's the primary unique factor, it's going to feel largely like classic steampunk with a more interesting backstory. It's hard being completely unique in steampunk without going way out there (stuff like Dragonmech, for example).
You are right; it is really difficult to make it truly unique without going way out there. That is something I really don't want to do. I am hoping that the backstory and the fluff is good enough to keep people interested.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
and props for not going to the fallback of arcane vs. tech...maybe you could make it unique with the level of steampunk? Entirely clockwork cities that rival the grandeur of the mage's sanctums, or conversely, isolated settlements with ramshackle technology that's barely keeping them alive in the face of the landscape and re-emergence of dark creatures (neither of which I see commonly done in steampunk, though I'm sure someone has).
Thanks and for right now that is the plan.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
BTW, that last bit is another area ripe for exploration - what if the dark things wizards were holding back were, in fact, far worse than the Wizards themselves, and technology is now the only way to keep humanity/humanoidanity from falling to the danger they present?
*I'm completely in love with Apocalypses. Something's wrong with me.
This is very much the way I am going.
Quote from: Steampunk Knight
Magic is still around, just people who know how to use it are gone. Well for the most part. I can se a handful of mages escaping the purge. There will definitely be at least one group trying to revive the old ways.
Awesome - such a group would be a great starting point for an adventure. Something to consider: are they public or hidden?
Quote
Magic on that scale requires dozens of mages to perform and maintain. I only really see there being like 100 mages at most during that time.
A single mage, while still being very dangerous, can be overwhelmed if enough people attack him at once. I see magic requiring a lot of personal energy and concentration to perform. After while a mage just gets tapped out.
Ahh, that makes more sense...though if only a hundred of them was able to reshape the globe, it's still hard to imagine them falling to anything but hundreds of thousands of normal's lives. Then again, that's just my opinion, not an actual critique. :P
Quote
You are right; it is really difficult to make it truly unique without going way out there. That is something I really don't want to do. I am hoping that the backstory and the fluff is good enough to keep people interested.
See my comment below in response to this:
Quote
This is very much the way I am going.
That, right there, is where your setting gets the most of it's uniqueness in my opinion. If gameplay/story is focused around holding back the dark creatures once contained by mages, you've got an angle on steampunk I've not heard before and not entirely sure anyone's done before. It's a great way to handle things, and I'm really looking forward to seeing this particular element develop above all others.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Awesome - such a group would be a great starting point for an adventure. Something to consider: are they public or hidden?
The group would definitely hidden. I see it as a secret cabal working behind the scenes slowly moving their pieces into place.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Ahh, that makes more sense...though if only a hundred of them was able to reshape the globe, it's still hard to imagine them falling to anything but hundreds of thousands of normal's lives. Then again, that's just my opinion, not an actual critique. :P
I can understand that.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
That, right there, is where your setting gets the most of it's uniqueness in my opinion. If gameplay/story is focused around holding back the dark creatures once contained by mages, you've got an angle on steampunk I've not heard before and not entirely sure anyone's done before. It's a great way to handle things, and I'm really looking forward to seeing this particular element develop above all others.
I just don't want it to be some Cthulhu like creatures. Still have to figure out what type of creatures or dark forces were released.
Quote
I just don't want it to be some Cthulhu like creatures. Still have to figure out what type of creatures or dark forces were released.
I'd also advise against Lovecraftian things, just because I don't think it'd fit in well with the overall setting from what I've heard. Could be as simple as just monstrous beasts or something more ephemeral, energy-type beings, or perhaps something of the Devil/Demon variety. Maybe nightmare versions of Faeries? Or...well, it doesn't need to be horrific, just extremely dangerous.
Quote from: Xathannightmare versions of Faeries
Very Victorian.
The past mages/wizards could have fought a terrible civil war between themselves, leaving only a few survivors that were then overcome by the non-wizards that remained. The civil war also could have left the world severly wounded and weak afterwards.
This could also be a good mechanism to create the reason that a general mistrust, fear, or hatred of magic exists. Anti-magic laws, inquistions, and mage-targeting death squads would all fit well in a steampunk setting.
I actually like the idea of the civil war between mages quite a bit - presents a good, logical way for why normal humans were overthrown, and the twisted abominations/undead/constructs created by the warring factions would provide the Dark Creatures (TM) that now threaten society - which would give people an ongoing reason to fear and hate mages, as opposed to wishing for their return to hold the Dark Creatures (TM) back again - instead of restraining them, in their last days the mages created them.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Could be as simple as just monstrous beasts or something more ephemeral, energy-type beings, or perhaps something of the Devil/Demon variety. Maybe nightmare versions of Faeries? Or...well, it doesn't need to be horrific, just extremely dangerous.
Quote from: Señor Leetz
The past mages/wizards could have fought a terrible civil war between themselves, leaving only a few survivors that were then overcome by the non-wizards that remained. The civil war also could have left the world severly wounded and weak afterwards.
This could also be a good mechanism to create the reason that a general mistrust, fear, or hatred of magic exists. Anti-magic laws, inquistions, and mage-targeting death squads would all fit well in a steampunk setting.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
I actually like the idea of the civil war between mages quite a bit - presents a good, logical way for why normal humans were overthrown, and the twisted abominations/undead/constructs created by the warring factions would provide the Dark Creatures (TM) that now threaten society - which would give people an ongoing reason to fear and hate mages, as opposed to wishing for their return to hold the Dark Creatures (TM) back again - instead of restraining them, in their last days the mages created them.
I think I am going to mash all three of those concepts together; definitely going to have nightmare Faeries. Now I just have to sit down and write it up. Hoping to have a rough draft by tonight.
looking forward to seeing an overview. Also happy you're not usin orcs and elves and dwarvs. Humanocentric?
I"m really, really looking forward to the overview as well. Do want to second Leetz question - are we only seeing humans as the "PC" race, or are there other "Playable" races - just using the term loosely for races that aren't one of the Nightmare Faeries or other very powerful beings.
Quote from: steampunk knightI think I am going to mash all three of those concepts together; definitely going to have nightmare Faeries. Now I just have to sit down and write it up. Hoping to have a rough draft by tonight.
Ditch the gossamer wings and go with an autumnal/shadow/insect aesthetic. Fairies that make those sick papery sounds roaches do. Fairies that are just out of sight in the worst places. Fairies that smell like wet leaves and have papery skin and gangly little legs.
Also include bigger ones, and play up the shapeshifters.
I'm going to second Beejazz's idea of the more insectile faeries - though keep the gossamer wings, since that's a very insect thing. :P But overall sounds very Victorian/Steampunk...I'm looking forward to this setting so much I cannot even begin to express.
Quote from: Señor Leetz
looking forward to seeing an overview. Also happy you're not usin orcs and elves and dwarvs. Humanocentric?
I was at first thinking that I was going to make it a humanocentric setting. And currently I am still leaning that way but, I think that it might be interesting to have a few other races populating my world.
Quote from: beejazz
Ditch the gossamer wings and go with an autumnal/shadow/insect aesthetic. Fairies that make those sick papery sounds roaches do. Fairies that are just out of sight in the worst places. Fairies that smell like wet leaves and have papery skin and gangly little legs.
Also include bigger ones, and play up the shapeshifters.
I was thinking about that, having them work in swarms and building hives like bees or wasps. I was also thinking about having them be feral, but in large numbers (haves and such) they have a group mind. PC's would be able to parlay with the queen.
As for the bigger ones, I'll have to look into it more.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
I'm going to second Beejazz's idea of the more insectile faeries - though keep the gossamer wings, since that's a very insect thing. :P But overall sounds very Victorian/Steampunk...I'm looking forward to this setting so much I cannot even begin to express.
I hope I can keep your interest.
Oh and I am still working on the write up, just got side tracked. hope to have something up soon.
Here is part one of the history I am building. I can't believe how long it took me to write 4 paragraphs. Again it is very rough and rather vague but I plan to follow this up with the next installment "The Ascension of the Magisters"
[ic=The Time of Chaos]
Before the ascension of the magisters, the world was a very different place. The people lived in a constant state of warfare. Tribe fought tribe over land and resources; even a simple insult could start a war that would last generations. Society, if it could be called that, was nothing more then a simple warrior code; a code that was strictly enforced by tribal chieftains. Agriculture and trade were almost non-existent and most of the population was illiterate.
With society as such it is amazing that the tribes even discovered magic, let alone maintained the discipline to use it. Over time a small class of wizards formed, most of which followed their chieftains whims without question; but a few saw the need to move past the endless wars and the constant death. They knew that they would have to do something drastic; something that had never been tried before, they must unite the clans, and in order to do that they must bring down the chieftains. A feat which was easier said the done.
The First Wizards, as history would call them, began to meet in secret; trying to decide on the best course of action. They knew for their plan to work, they would needed to bring the other spellcasters into their ranks. Slowly, the First Wizards began reaching out to others of their kind. Some saw the need for change, while others viewed the First Wizards plan as a threat to their tribe and as such they quickly informed their chieftains.
The chieftains, enraged by the audacity of the wizards plans to overthrow their rule, sent their forces to exterminate them. The First Wizards were initially caught off guard and several fell to the chieftain's blades. Even though the First Wizards lacked the immense power of their descendants, they were able to quickly rally and take the war to the Chieftains.
[/ic]
I really like the IC and OoC tags.
Wee! History! In such a tribal setting, how did the First Wizards begin to meet? Why wasn't society developing on its own?
Interest is most assuredly held.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Wee! History! In such a tribal setting, how did the First Wizards begin to meet? Why wasn't society developing on its own?
Interest is most assuredly held.
the danger of monsters, demi-human hordes, and other darker, quieter things could have easily kept humanity in check before magic and the, Im presuming, industrial and steampunk advancement they later made unbalanced the scales.
Oh, yeah, I thought of those - I'm just curious what the Canon reason is.
If I get a vote, the previously mentioned Nightmare Faeries (Who for some reason I keep calling the Protosidhe or Archaosidhe in my head, partially because it has a nice ring of the archaic evil plus fae, and partially because I love mixing up words) would make for an excellent reason why. Or Dinosaurs. Because everyone loves Dinosaurs, as overdone as they are. :P
haha, since when have dinosaurs been overdone in fantasy, or even steampunk settings? but seems somewhat out of place, so i would say avoid.
Same - but I had to make the joke. And they're not quite overdone yet, but ever since Eberron they've become increasingly common.
At the same time, steampunk weapons mounted on a triceratops just tickles me in ways I can't explain. :P
You could also design the natural fauna of your world to be like dinosaurs or other extinct species, but without specific species references. If the game's not straight fantasy, but you want big dumb monsters to fight, giant lizards could easily be the way to go. Bonus points for using a mounted combat system that works.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Wee! History! In such a tribal setting, how did the First Wizards begin to meet? Why wasn't society developing on its own?
Interest is most assuredly held.
Tribes are very close to one another. Some are close enough for a person to walk to one and back in a day. I see it starting with a group of wizards who were close enough to meet. Then after they met they wizards would travel home and then make contact to wizards to tribes further out.
I'm going to answer the last question below.
Quote from: Señor Leetz
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Wee! History! In such a tribal setting, how did the First Wizards begin to meet? Why wasn't society developing on its own?
Interest is most assuredly held.
the danger of monsters, demi-human hordes, and other darker, quieter things could have easily kept humanity in check before magic and the, Im presuming, industrial and steampunk advancement they later made unbalanced the scales.
Your right for the most part, but don't forget about the humans themselves. Now it wasn't the rise of tech that started the creation of society, but the rise of magic that really started things going. Society would become a monoculture under their rule. Then when the wizards started warring amongst themselves and their downfall is when the monoculture would fracture in a varied amount of societies.
Quote from: beejazz
You could also design the natural fauna of your world to be like dinosaurs or other extinct species, but without specific species references. If the game's not straight fantasy, but you want big dumb monsters to fight, giant lizards could easily be the way to go. Bonus points for using a mounted combat system that works.
Is there one that works?
Quote from: Steampunk KnightIs there one that works?
I could probably help you cobble one together, gear-head that I am. But I kind of like the idea of treating the mount's turn and the player's turn as one and the same. If the mount moves, that's the player's movement this turn, and likewise for attacks. If you want to attack with both, I'd treat that similar to dual wielding (penalty to both, or however you handle it). And if you want to be realistic, have people target rider or mount, but use "firing into a crowd" type rules that let the other get hit sometimes. That plus options to charge past and trample foes and you're golden. Lots come pretty close to getting this right. It's just the specifics that bog down a lot of rule sets.
Vehicles are a little different. I like the idea of vehicles that keep going the same speed/direction until you act to accelerate, decelerate, or steer.
Quote from: beejazz
Quote from: Steampunk KnightIs there one that works?
I could probably help you cobble one together, gear-head that I am. But I kind of like the idea of treating the mount's turn and the player's turn as one and the same. If the mount moves, that's the player's movement this turn, and likewise for attacks. If you want to attack with both, I'd treat that similar to dual wielding (penalty to both, or however you handle it). And if you want to be realistic, have people target rider or mount, but use "firing into a crowd" type rules that let the other get hit sometimes. That plus options to charge past and trample foes and you're golden. Lots come pretty close to getting this right. It's just the specifics that bog down a lot of rule sets.
Vehicles are a little different. I like the idea of vehicles that keep going the same speed/direction until you act to accelerate, decelerate, or steer.
I like all of those ideas, and when I get into the mechanics of the system I am going to build, I will incorporate those ideas into it.