Ah, the kitchen sink setting. So long maligned, and with good reason. Us CBGers are, in my experience, excellent setting-builders, and as such are well aware, and have been for a long time, that just because it exists doesn't mean it needs to be a part of your world. That said, I've been wondering recently if a good kitchen sink type setting might be possible, even to the point where I'm considering making one (or trying to, at least)
Now, if I am going to have a crack at this, I probably won't include absolutely EVERY fantasy staple, just a lot of the key ones - more a simple basin than a sink, if you will. So, at least the four basic fantasy races (humans, elves, dwarves, orcs), wizards of some form or another, gods (probably including race-specific gods), demons, at least one Dark Lord type, Proud Warrior Race Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProudWarriorRaceGuy) barbarians, eldritch ruins of the once-mighty ancients, and quite possibly a few more to boot. Maybe a dragon or two, if I absolutely have to.
The real issue though is for me to try to avoid some of the pitfalls of the standard, crappy, kitchen sink setting. That, or try to twist them into a form I find more palatable. To this end, I'd like you guys to help me list all the things that usually end up sucking about these kinds of settings, so I know what I'm up against. I'll kick off with a few things I think we can all agree suck.
- Monolithic racial cultures. All elves are hippie wizards, all dwarves are drunken axe-wielders, etc. Obviously there is a bit of a problem here in that, if I'm going to use elves and dwarves they need to be elves and dwarves in more than just name, but I still think it's possible to have several different cultures that are all variants on "elf," and the same for the other races
- Long, tedious Tolkeinian histories with several "ages" full of cool but irrelevant stuff happening to people who don't really matter very much in the present day of the setting. Not that history's not important, I should just focus on the bits that really are important, and present it in a more exciting format
- Planes of existence. The only way I've really ever liked these was in Planescape, where they're the whole point. Otherwise they just seem distracting if they go beyond vague concepts such as "heaven" "hell" or "the spirit world"
Your turn, please chip in with anything you think I should really avoid if I go ahead with this - or alternatively, anything you think I really should do.
Are you thinking of doing something Planescapean, i.e. with a sort of punk, eclectic quality? That's my favorite kitchen sinky setting... so awesome. Or something more like Faerun/Eberron?
Things that suck:
- Magic being ubiquitous but not affecting social structures, economies, standard of living, etc. People will think differently if magic is widely available. It'll be used for surveillance, industry, medical treatment, or whatever. Eberron is the perfect counterexample. If magic is really rare that's another story.
- Medieval stasis. The setting might be medieval but it shouldn't stay that way for thousands and thousands of years. Magic is sometimes blamed for this, but really magic should accelerate progress rather than stagnate it.
- Eurocentrism. If it's a kitchen sink, make it a cultural kitchen sink, too. Plus who could pass up elves with katanas?
- Motiveless and/or monolithic Evil, and black & white morality in general.
Things that rock:
- A feeling of grandeur and the Mythic.
- Weird and awesome monsters.
With as many different elements that have gone into it, Asura could probably be called a kitchen sink. Indeed, I've called it that on enough occasions. However, it's a kitchen sink that organically developed-- I kept putting more and more different things together, resulting in a setting that kept growing in a lot of different directions, and involving a lot of different elements. I think maybe this "natural development" is what allows it to avoid some of the traps that kitchen sinks frequently suffer from, like Eurocentrism and monocultures, because lots of different elements are going into it that developed on their own, rather than an intentional attempt to come up with as much as humanly possible and throw it all in there at the same time.
I agree with Steerpike's list, too. Those things are no good. And often plague not just kitchen sinks, but a lot of D&D-ish settings in general, I would say.
I'll admit to having trouble coming up with new things to add to that list. I will say Kitchen Sinks like Asura work out very well - it's about making it all fit together in a realistic way, so you don't notice it's a kitchen sink until you're standing in the drain.
Oh, I do actually want to add one to the list - complete ignorance of how climate shapes land and visa versa, with random deserts with a inland sea in the middle and rivers, swamps on top of mountains, mountains randomly dotted across the landscape like the mapper had a seizure when drawing them, and an overall desire to cram every possible biome onto a single continent.
Also, "There's this vast empire over to the West/East that we know little about because they're super ultra double secret but they're probably awesome BUT no one really knows so we'll drop a couple random hints and then leave it entirely untouched."
Also, "The Dark One" "He Who Shall Not Be Named" "He Who Is Hidden" "The Great Shadow" "The Unnamable Evil" "He Who's Van You Must Not Enter." If you're going to have a evil power, give it a damn name and don't make it something that people are afraid to speak.
Also also, The Evil Empire (TM) fighting against the Stalwart Rebels - it was overdone by the time Star Wars got done with it. Why not switch it up and have an evil revolutionary group within a good nation? Or just ignore this trope entirely.
Finally, The Nation of Evil. The Government is Evil, the Religion is Evil, the Noble's are Evil, they have Undead so they're Evil, and they torture and main and kill and do all kinds of Evil things because they're Evil, and the end result is that the Common People are fairly Evil too. It differs from the Evil Empire in that it's largely contained to a single nation as opposed to being an overwhelming power, but it's still a frustrating trope - no government like that would ever survive before being overthrown internally or externally, and it just doesn't make sense.
EDIT: one more: "This culture is basically [insert culture here] but with MAGIC! Some originality in cultures is nice. Nothing wrong with using other cultures for influences, but just ripping one off and plopping it down is dull.
...okay, apparently I did come up with a few.
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
Also, "The Dark One" "He Who Shall Not Be Named" "He Who Is Hidden" "The Great Shadow" "The Unnamable Evil" "He Who's Van You Must Not Enter." If you're going to have a evil power, give it a damn name and don't make it something that people are afraid to speak.
That trope can perfectly justified. All you need to do is explain the reason for the name being avoided (generally because speaking it aloud would draw it's attention and potentially make it take interest on YOU). It doesn't even have to be a genuine danger, it's sufficient that this is believed to be the case.
I also don't agree on this trope being particularly associated with the kitchen sink concept.
Okay, I should probably clarify my annoyance with this trope:
Yes, it at times can be justified (it draw the Dark One's attention, or the Dark One's name is entirely unprouncible by human tounges), and yes, it can work well. And while it's not entirely kitchen sink, I've seen it too often since Robert Jordan and Harry Potter (where it wasn't really justified) where it's a commonly used fantasy trope that I find frustrating - and I've seen so many stories/settings that refer to a Dark One that lacks a true name that I've come to find it frustrating. When writing that one down, I guess I was thinking less "kitchen sink settings" in general and more "overused fantasy tropes that, in tandem with the rest of them, contribute to overall triteness." The Dark One trope, if it's the only (or one of the few) tropes of the genre you use, dosn't bother me -it's when it's part of a series of tropes that it annoys me. It didn't bother me in the above works because Jordan justified it well - anytime someone said Shai'itan something aweful happened - and Harry Potter turned enough tropes on their heads (elves are not a beautiful immortal beings being the first example) that that one trope didn't particularly bother me. However, we're talking about things that, within a kitchen sink setting make it worse, and that's one I feel would detract from it.
More things that suck:
- Common people being surprised by strange creatures, magic, and/or other supernatural phenomena. This is related to but distinct from the "magic isn't used" issue. Usually a kitchen sink brims with weird stuff, so people should be familiar with it. They should know what the weaknesses of monsters are, that common locks can't stand up to even low-level magic (at least in d&d), that people can be charmed, and similar details of a world.
- Uniform political structures i.e. a homogeneous slew of monarchies. Powerful creatures - dragons etc - might set themselves up as dictators; if divine magic is available, theocracies will probably be far more common; if arcane magic is especially powerful, magocracies of some sort might develop. And imagine how differently peasant insurrections would be with sorcerous commoners casting fireballs at those platoons of the king's men... a fast way to establish a democracy, or at least get a constitution written!
- Nonsensical geopolitical stability and/or demographic distributions. If dwarves are great steel-makers then they're probably going to dominate other species unless they have a really good reason not to, like an intensely isolationist, xenophobic ideology reinforced by conservative religious structures, or an aversion to sunlight. If goblins really do breed like rabbits they shouldn't be scattered in isolated tribes in the wilderness, they should throng the world and build enormous ramshackle cities, or form underclasses in non-goblin cities, or whatever. If orcs are the most naturally skilled warriors then unless technological factors keep them down (like that dwarf steel) they should be occupying territories and forging empires.
- The good guys having monopoly on things like art i.e. elves making beautiful songs and fancy clothes and gorgeous architecture but orcs lacking any form of aesthetic culture. Again unless there's a really good reason, like maybe orcs are single-minded clones bred purely for war (Uruk-Hai) or whatnot. Basically, Tolkien did a lot of things right, but his imitators screw it up. A lot.
- Humans, humans, Humans. Humans are the only peoples to spread far and wide - Humans love Empires, Kingdoms, Duchies and towns. Around every corner lies a Human.
- Humans love diversity in culture but only when it obviously mimics a real world culture. Egypt, Inca, Aztec, Rome, Greece, China, Japan, India, Mongolia, Arabia, Polynesia, Scandinavia - Humans have a monopoly on all of them.
- Technological stasis, the Gods demand that no one ever think about making anything new because everyone must be a 13th century Peasant living on their Lord's Manor.
- Guns don't exist, or if they do they are perpetually "new" and "exotic".
- Magic is horded by a few and, even though there are a million Player Characters running around, it is still exotic and unknowable.
- Humans are easily corruptible, especially their leaders.
- Evil races conveniently gather in level appropriate areas where they can be slaughtered by Player Characters.
- The only thing more common than Humans are ancient Ruins and Dungeons, all of which are perpetually overflowing with ancient gems, gold and treasure.
I will say I think a lot of this stuff is easily averted, and that the great majority of creators here would avoid most of the cliches almost as a reflex.
And I will add that a lot of the worse cliches listed would be as much of a problem in any kind of setting, not just kitchen sinks.
Quote from: Ghostman
And I will add that a lot of the worse cliches listed would be as much of a problem in any kind of setting, not just kitchen sinks.
I'll agree with you there - the problem with kitchen sinks is they tend to have a ton of these, as opposed to one or two of them, which makes all of them more glaringly obvious.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfEvil races conveniently gather in level appropriate areas where they can be slaughtered by Player Characters.
Just want to add to this - some races are EVIL for no reason other than they're ugly and barbaric. Evil races that aren't supernaturally evil (demons and such) should be on this list, though it's one of the less bothersome examples.
Just remember, most cliche's are cliche's for a reason. They were good ideas, and they got used a lot. A while ago, I wanted to reinvent the wheel and change a lot of things about my races, but I realized that if it ends up being similar to an elf, you might as well just make it an elf. Our brain works with stereotypes, and avoiding them can make some things complicated.
As for kitchen sinks, I consider Eberron to be a kitchen sink setting. One of the first lines in the book was "if it's in D&D, it's in Eberron", and that immediately turned me off of the setting. It seemed, to me, that they were just hitting D&D with a different coat of paint. Granted, I never really gave the setting a chance, but I wasn't interested.
Your initial idea about cutting out a lot of the unnecessary history, and focusing on the fun of the now, is a great idea that I'm going to use in my own presentations.
Quote from: Xeviat
As for kitchen sinks, I consider Eberron to be a kitchen sink setting. One of the first lines in the book was "if it's in D&D, it's in Eberron", and that immediately turned me off of the setting. It seemed, to me, that they were just hitting D&D with a different coat of paint. Granted, I never really gave the setting a chance, but I wasn't interested.
That is a slight misquote. What they meant was if it is in the Core 3.5 D&D Books then it is in Eberron. That may sound like a kitchen skink but, if you really get into the setting, everything has a place - which is a far cry from the haphazard manner in which most creators (of printed material) simply fling creatures into their settings.
For example, Dinosaurs play a large role in the Talenta Plains, where nomadic Halflings ride raptors into combat. Three Hags have actually gathered up many of the vilified/monstrous races (like ogres and Minotaurs) and forged a Kingdom of their own. The Kingdom isn't necessarily evil, just more barbaric/rustic than the human kingdoms. Many of the magical creatures (like Owlbears, Griffons, Hippogriffs, etc.) are actually bred by a Dragonmark House and sold/rented to Nations and other interested parties.
Honestly, Eberron is the best setting every produced by WotC.
Forgotten Realms feels like a Kitchen Sink setting- Eberron does not. As EE says, it fits and it makes sense (except for the miniscule population numbers).
Quote from: Light Dragon
Forgotten Realms feels like a Kitchen Sink setting- Eberron does not. As EE says, it fits and it makes sense (except for the miniscule population numbers).
The problem with FR was that there were too many hands in its development and not enough focus on the overall feel of the setting. The setting feels like it was constructed from the husks of seven or so different settings, duct taped together and published in a single book.
The latest version of the setting is created with a nod towards consciously constructing a pan-continent theme and over all feel. And yet as I look at it all I feel is mild indifference. It doesn't feel like FR, it feels like someone took the idea of Points of Light and stuffed it down FR's throat.
I liked the old FR because, regardless of its faults, it was a fun setting full of more stories, character and plots than most settings ever dream of. And WotC flushed all that down the drain. Sad really.
I think of Eberron as a kitchen-sink setting in that it has a huge degree of eclecticism. Skyrails and dinosaurs and robots and otherworldly horrors and gigantic cities and pint-sized barbarians and magic tattoos. What makes it a good kitchen sink setting (IMO) is that it still somehow manages to feel semi-cohesive; the pieces fit together, more or less, and the whole thing is united by an atmosphere of pulp action and Noirish zaniness. Yeah it's D&D with a new paint job, of course - but the old paint was peeling pretty badly.
I know these are usually considered fantasy staples more than vilified tropes, but personally I can't help but put the following two items in the latter category:
*Living gods. Although it sounds good at first, gods walking the earth toying with mortals, this ruins the entire freaking concept of religion and bothers me to no end. A few (alleged) god-kings and demi-mortals is okay, but when you start introducing the main gods of the pantheon as NPCs I start cringing.
*Dragons, oh god the dragons. They are everywhere. There is nary a setting without dragons. And they are always the cleverest, strongest and most magical being around. Gah.
Hmm, don't know whether the above actually applies to your kitchen sink discussion, but take from it what you will.
On the subject of "official" kitchen sinks, I think Pathfinder's Golarion glaring example. Don't get me wrong, it does get a few things right and has its share of original ideas, but for every original idea there are five annoying clichés. The most scathing part of the setting though is the very incoherent nature of how all the elements are fitted together, which is really what separates a sink from an ordinary setting. Oh, and as mentioned by others earlier, they lean on RL civilizations way too much.
So we have Viking country next to Ice Witch country (I kid you not) and then there is Technology country which lies between Evil Magic country and Good Magic country. We have Egypt country, Arab country, Indian country, Chinese country etc. as well as more peculiar things like barbarians-meet-spaceships-and-robots country.
That being said, their Evil Empire is kinda neat and actually manages to separate itself from its real-world inspirations.
EDIT: Just realized parts of my comment line up pretty well with Steerpike's comment above. What determines whether a setting turns into a (bad) kitchen sink is the cohesiveness and verisimilitude of its elements. Even if you put all the fantasy elements of the world in one setting I'm not sure it would "deserve" the title Kitchen Sink unless it was falling apart at the seams. All of us here want our settings to brim with ideas, the difficult part is to stitch them together. (hmm, I think I have taken this franken-setting analogy as far as it can go)
EDIT: Oh, and Eberron is A) a pretty great setting apart from the godawful novels, B) not deserving of the kitchen sink label for the above reasons. It was more of a counter-reaction to the kitchen sink principle that pervaded the settings before it, taking care to unify everything people loved about D&D under a common flag and ethos.
Wow, some great responses guys, lots to think about. Based on the definition of kitchen sink that seems to be emerging from all this, I think that might not even be what I'm going to end up working towards - a better term might just be "standard fantasy," as I'm not so much interested in jamming as many different things into the setting as possible as I am interested in making a setting that uses a number of the basic fantasy staples (demihumans, wizards, barbarians, etc.) and manages to still be a good, interesting setting rather than just "my version of DnD-land" . . . although I guess, essentially that's exactly what it will be, just hopefully my version will be a good one :P
>>I think of Eberron as a kitchen-sink setting in that it has a huge degree of eclecticism. Skyrails and dinosaurs and robots and otherworldly horrors and gigantic cities and pint-sized barbarians and magic tattoos. What makes it a good kitchen sink setting (IMO) is that it still somehow manages to feel semi-cohesive; the pieces fit together, more or less, and the whole thing is united by an atmosphere of pulp action and Noirish zaniness. Yeah it's D&D with a new paint job, of course - but the old paint was peeling pretty badly.
Well, I can agree with that, but Eberron doesn't 'really' have everything in the way that Golarion (Paizo's setting) or Forgotten Realms does. It doesn't have the Gothic Castles of Ustalav for a horror setting, or the Space weapons of Numeria, or really an ice-begotten land. As was said earlier, in Eberron, everything that's rules-compliant can fit there, but the setting itself follows a core ethos.
EDIT: Just read Crow's response above... I see you hit on the "core ethos" language as well :p. I really should have read his reply before replying to Steerpike--he's on the same wavelength as me.
Quote from: Superfluous CrowLiving gods. Although it sounds good at first, gods walking the earth toying with mortals, this ruins the entire freaking concept of religion and bothers me to no end. A few (alleged) god-kings and demi-mortals is okay, but when you start introducing the main gods of the pantheon as NPCs I start cringing.
As someone who has used this trope a few times, including in Asura, I feel the need to defend it a bit. :P
I don't think it particularly ruins the concept of religion, personally. Just because the god is walking around doesn't mean that people always (or even usually) know where he is or what he's doing, and even when he is around, in the temple or whatever, it's not as though he has to be completely transparent in explaining just what's going on. There could even be gods who were seen to be walking around a generation or two ago, but nobody's seen them since then. Or, maybe, two or more gods that some believe are actually the same single being walking around, while others fiercely protest the claim, and of course the actual entity isn't going to be forthcoming about it. I also like when there true nature isn't clear, so they might just be aliens or something.
Basically, all I'm saying is, just because the gods are given incarnations doesn't mean they have to be available and particularly transparent about what they're doing. I think that the problem with the trope is when one automatically assumes that they do have to be-- which
does ruin religion and it makes
me cringe as well.
I had an image in my mind when I finished reading this thread.
A blank sheet on which a circle was drawn. Then animated dots fight each other eternally while always remaining in the circle, forgetting that the circle is, but a mere barrier that can be crossed easily to escape in the more open outside world. Where better opportunities await!
Weird eh? Of course someone who reads between the lines might find this a bit funny, or the exact opposite. I hope it happens.
Kindling- have you looked at the old discussions about DivSet? You may want to run a search. I think a description of DivSet is also on the wiki. I don't know if anyone mentioned this in this thread yet, but what you want to do seems like the epitome of DivSet rather than Kitchen Sink--as you have already noted that you wanted to avoid the negative aspects of Kitchen Sink.
I second LD. I don't think I was part of the old discussion, but I have encountered the definition a few times. If I remember correctly DivSet is essentially the idea of constructing a setting that can accomodate any form of adventure/story as opposed to a setting with an ethos which is restricted to stories of a specific format and tone.
Yet I wonder whether there is a distinction of some kind between a "good" kitchen sink setting and a DivSet setting? One could be seen as element/idea accomodation while the other is tone/style accomodation. I don't know if this is a difference or, if it is, whether it is worth exploring.
Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Yet I wonder whether there is a distinction of some kind between a "good" kitchen sink setting and a DivSet setting? One could be seen as element/idea accomodation while the other is tone/style accomodation. I don't know if this is a difference or, if it is, whether it is worth exploring.
This.
I am well aware that this does rehash some of the issues of the DivSet/Ethocentric schtick, but as Crow has so eloquently put it, the two issues don't
quite line up exactly with each other.
As one of the original anti-ethocentric arguers, I don't know if I like the divset terminology or concept, or where things went after I dropped out. Big part of my original idea is that tailoring a setting to a theme feels odd. Especially since what happens in game isn't the sole domain of the setting. If the theme is trust, it would be hard to make everything about trust. A *tone* can work, but that's different entirely.
The way I see it, there's multiple factors at play. There's tones, themes (which can be left out of my open-ended games), stuff (spaceships in a scifi), and something else I don't have a good name for (the difference between a romance and a mystery).
So a kitchen sink setting can have stuff from many genres (nuke-toting goblins in space) if it has a unifying tone or that last one (nuke toting goblins in space solve mysteries). And I think RPGs are uniquely good for this. The same rules apply across the board, and can unify the tone. So even if your characters are magic pegasi in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, the system will decide if the tone is My Little Pony or The Road.