[ooc]To help increase overall participating in various settings, I'm looking for people who would be willing to be consultants for a week on this setting, where I provide feedback on your setting and you on mine during that time period. If you're interested, just let me know - I'll be doing one setting at a time, so first come first serve.[/ooc]][note]Right now the setting is very nebulous, hence why it's in a brainstorming thread – once I get it more codified I'll make an actual setting thread and this will become the discussion thread, using the same method I did in Terra Macabre. [/note]
Overview:
[spoiler=Size Comparison of Earth, Aelithia, and Neptune] (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Exoplanet_Comparison_CoRoT-7_b.png)[/spoiler]
Design Goals:
So I've decided to create an ubersetting, one that combines all my prior and abandoned projects (except for Terra Macabre – after much deliberation, I've decided that two projects, one of them this and one of them that, is best, since I don't want the unique flavor of TM) into a single unified setting that can also accommodate any future ideas I have. This is going to be pretty difficult – I need to create something that is combined but not schizophrenic, uses everything I like from the old settings and discards what wasn't working, the things that lead to the project's abandonment. I've decided to start outlining the design goals and going from there.
Everything Fits Boundless is going to, as previously mentioned, be broad enough to combine elements of a number of my older projects – especially Datrik, Sooth, Sundered Lands, Sreth, Verdant Apocalypse, and Pirates, though stuff from other settings will make their way in. In addition, I'm constantly having new ideas, and Boundless is going to be flexible enough that I can merge them in.
Sufficiently Advanced Magic A reversal of Clark's famous line, inspired by the discussion in Xeviat's magic thread and previous discussions, I'm going to be using magic to fill the role of technology – to a point. I still want to have the setting fantasy – I don't want to make armor, swords, castles, etc obsolete, but I also want to make sure the fact that magic exists known. Eberron is a bit of a model here, but I'm also taking it further – magic is part of everyday life, floating castles and landmasses and infusions into cities and golem or necromantic limbs or deliberately modified forms, every day ease of life, transportation...the possibilities are limitless, and the difficulty is going to be ensuring that it still feels like fantasy.
There are some areas of the world where magic has not advanced to this point, much as technology did not advance uniformly on Earth.
Sufficiently Advanced Alchemy Much as above, but the abundance of magic is only part of what makes life different – alchemy has the advantages of being performable by anyone and not subject the dangers of dispelling. How this will manifest exactly will emerge as the setting develops.
Size Matters As the picture shows, the world of Aelithia is huge compared to Earth, and the land is broken up into a number of "islands" - a loose term, because the largest of them is as large as Antarctica, and many are around the size of Australia. This also allows for creatures that just wouldn't work – dragons, giants, and other huge creatures – to exist: with much more ecosystem to feed on, megafauna can exist.
Humanoids are Rarely In Charge Dragons, Lichs, Giants, Aberrations – so many creatures that have the power to dominate humanity and the will to do so exist, it's unrealistic to expect that humanoids are the masters of their own destiny.
Strange Geographies Giant trees that can house cities, floating islands, and stranger still exist, and that's just on the surface – the Lowerlands (drawn from Datrik) are an immense world within the world. And even then we're not getting into the 1000 Realms, planes of existence beyond our own.
That's what I have right now. Any questions would be greatly appreciated to help get the ball rolling on this, even though it's pretty vague.
I fully support this, and I will offer everything I can. Here's a couple of thoughts that come immediately to mind:
- Kitchen Sink scares me: as much as my setting can look like it's "and the kitchen sink", the idea always makes me jump; it's why I never gave Eberron a chance. Hopefully there will be unification between it all
- On magic: I love this, and may steal plenty of those ideas for Avalon in my setting. This sort of thing can make the world feel immediately different. High magic isn't done to its full extent enough, and doing it halfway makes it feel half-baked. So bravo.
- I'm interested in the extents of alchemy; I wonder if it's going to end up similar to my spell/ritual separation (the one that seems like I stole from D&D4). Are fighters going to carry around bandoleers of alchemist fire and flasks of acid? Will rogues disabling traps involve dripping acid into mechanisms? Will precious metals even be worth anything if people can turn base metals into gold, or is that the holy grail of alchemy still?
- Is the larger planet going to influence gravity ever so slightly, or is the planet less dense? =P I'm curious on your thoughts on megafauna, because I have dragons and smaller elephant-sized drakes in my setting, and I need to figure out how rare they'll have to be for the ecosystem to support them. I expect to see some type of mage-o-synthesis lifeform as a possible base of the ecosystem that could support a lot of life (an idea I'm using in my setting).
- Humanoids not being in charge is very interesting. Kingdoms ruled by dragons, an empire ruled by an undying undead oligarchy, and entire nations enslaved by tentacular horrors from beyond are all very interesting.
- Strange geographies are something I'll love to see. I've wanted to do a bit of this in my setting, but I'm always too conservative to risk it.
Here's some unrelated questions:
- Are you intending on this being a D&D-type setting, or something different? Are you intending on focusing on dungeon and strange environment exploration, politicing, or everything under the sun? What do you want to support the best?
- How much classic stuff are you planing on using, and how much original?
- Are there any other questions you'd like me to ask (brain just melted ...)
I'll answer all those questions and do some more updating between classes today, but for now I want to share this image of something you might see in Aelithia:
(http://slightlyunstable.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/spellsunger1.png)]
Awesome image!
Looking forward to hearing more about the undead oligarchy.
If that's a magical sniper-rifle/flame-thrower combo, I'm all ears dude.
Quote from: Xeviat
I fully support this, and I will offer everything I can. Here's a couple of thoughts that come immediately to mind:- Kitchen Sink scares me: as much as my setting can look like it's "and the kitchen sink", the idea always makes me jump; it's why I never gave Eberron a chance. Hopefully there will be unification between it all
Kitchen sink is always dangerous and difficulty - true, unadulterated DivSet is nigh impossible when creating a setting that feels coherent and logical. What I'm aiming for here unifying elements that are still somewhat loose: technology/magitech/alchemy are going to be fairly standardized, and a few of the other listed elements are going to be unifying. Beyond that, I'm going for regional unification: a campaign that largely takes place in Shabbot will feel different than one that takes place largely in Shunta, which will feel different than one in the Shining Wastes, the Saltflats, The Lowerlands, or Drakan. The difficult part and what I'm going to do my best at is making sure that transitioning between regions is smooth enough where it feels like the real world - but at times that will feel like an American visiting Ethopia in terms of similarities.
Quote- On magic: I love this, and may steal plenty of those ideas for Avalon in my setting. This sort of thing can make the world feel immediately different. High magic isn't done to its full extent enough, and doing it halfway makes it feel half-baked. So bravo.
Thanks! This is partially due to your thread on magitech and some discussions Sparkle and I have had over IRC - I'm hoping to all else that it feels the way I'm hoping (the picture should give a good idea of what I'm hoping for in some aspects) Also, if you're familiar with that ultimate crapsack of a setting Forgotten Realms, there is one thing they did that I loved, the idea of large (city wide) magical feilds people can tap into called mythals - I plan on incorporating something similar for larger cities in Aelthitia.
Quote- I'm interested in the extents of alchemy; I wonder if it's going to end up similar to my spell/ritual separation (the one that seems like I stole from D&D4). Are fighters going to carry around bandoleers of alchemist fire and flasks of acid? Will rogues disabling traps involve dripping acid into mechanisms? Will precious metals even be worth anything if people can turn base metals into gold, or is that the holy grail of alchemy still?
This is a good chance to expand upon alchemy before I get to a full writeup: it is widespread because, at its core, it's cheaper to mass produce and use on a large scale than magic. It takes months if not years of training for a wizard to master the most basic of spells, a cleric requires extreme devotion, and innate casters are not common enough to significantly reduce the cost (not to mention learning to control their powers still requires almost as much effort as a wizard learning to use magic). Alchemy is common mans power - so bandoliers of alchemical bombs, disabling traps with acid (or traps that use acid), even golems powered by alchemic formulas exist. It's still not as cheap as a good iron blade or bow, but it's much cheaper than an enchanted item. (The advantage the latter have is longevity - once an alchemical formula is used, it's used, while enchanted items can endure indefinitely)
Quote- Is the larger planet going to influence gravity ever so slightly, or is the planet less dense? =P
I've decided to take a "Fuck physics" approach to gravity and a number of other things: gravity is the same as on Earth because I say so, and can get wierd in some places (especially the lowerlands. Basically, gravity is going to follow the rule of cool, and I have no intention of trying to justify it unless something brilliant occurs to me. On a purely terrestrial planet, gravity is boring - it pulls down at a constant rate. I'm going to have fun with it, and damn logic. The rules for gravity will be
interally consistent, because otherwise it will just feel stupid, but they're not going to be the same rules we have in the real world.
Quote- I'm curious on your thoughts on megafauna, because I have dragons and smaller elephant-sized drakes in my setting, and I need to figure out how rare they'll have to be for the ecosystem to support them. I expect to see some type of mage-o-synthesis lifeform as a possible base of the ecosystem that could support a lot of life (an idea I'm using in my setting).
There are a couple of lifeforms that support a larger ecosystem, including airborn creatures that fill the role of krill in the ocean, much larger and faster growing plants (which support larger herbivores and therefore allow for larger carnivores), a greater variety of "lower life forms" equating the small creatures that form the animalistic base of many ecosystems, and energy/partially energy beings that support an entirely new ecosystem - the prey animals of this ecosystem feed (passively) on intellect, magic, spirits, etch, while the predatory animals are Thaumivores that feed on a variety of things in often nasty ways.
Quote- Humanoids not being in charge is very interesting. Kingdoms ruled by dragons, an empire ruled by an undying undead oligarchy, and entire nations enslaved by tentacular horrors from beyond are all very interesting.
Bingo. That's not to say that there aren't nations that have humanoid rulers, but such places are the exception to the rule, made possible by beneficial terrain, small status, powerful mage rulers, divine intervention, or some combination thereof. Otherwise? Humanoids are not in charge, though not everything that rules humanoid races is malicious, tyrannical, or malevolent.
Quote- Strange geographies are something I'll love to see. I've wanted to do a bit of this in my setting, but I'm always too conservative to risk it.
I hope I can pull this off without going to far, but I love playing with physics and geography, so I'm much more liberal here - I just have to find the right balance between weird and unbelievable, which I freely admit will be trickery than it sounds on paper.
QuoteHere's some unrelated questions:- Are you intending on this being a D&D-type setting, or something different? Are you intending on focusing on dungeon and strange environment exploration, politicing, or everything under the sun? What do you want to support the best?
When I get down to system, it's going to be a modified Pathfinder system (and hopefully eventually moving to either Xev20 or X20 if I get that under way). I want the setting to BEST support classic adventuring, but exploration, politicing, intrigue, etc are all going to be possible - I rarely design a setting with "what kind of adventures are possible here" in mind, otherwise I get bogged down in that way too much.
Quote- How much classic stuff are you planing on using, and how much original?
A huge amount of both. I made the setting massively large to support almost all classic OGL stuff as well as my own creations, and am going to have a ton of fun with both.
Quote- Are there any other questions you'd like me to ask (brain just melted ...)
If I knew the questions I wanted asked, I wouldn't need others asked. Just ask about anything that interests you, and I'll take it from there. :)
Quote from: Steerpike
Awesome image!
Looking forward to hearing more about the undead oligarchy.
Hehehe, I'll get cracking on one of those as an early region, because A) it was requested and B) I have a ton of ideas for those.
Quote from: Señor Leetz
If that's a magical sniper-rifle/flame-thrower combo, I'm all ears dude.
Yes, yes it is, though it can also be used to channel other magical energies - just one example of magical technology. She's also sporting a crystal eyepach that lets her zoom, see through walls, and even deliver a flash if she gets trapped in melee, boots that give her enchanced movement/climbing, gloves that do the same and allows her to "feel" magic auras on things (as well as analyze alchemical concocotions) and a book that gives her data on what she's looking at and allows for simplistic communication with whoever has the companion book. Granted, her entire gearset is something that cost a ton, but most militaries are willing to spend a ton to give their special forces a much needed leg up. (The picture is from a pathfinder variant wizard class called the spellslinger, but I'm taking it several steps further.)
Coming next: A history of the world in terms of ages (which went primeval, intellectual, wood (the stone age), divine, arcane, alchemical, and finally the modern synthesis age) and an overview of the general global state of things. After that, going to look at some individual regions, races, and cultures, providing some broad overviews. Hoping to get the first part of that done tonight.
[note=Steam, Diesel, and Clockwork]You'll notice these kinds of technology are utterly absent from Boundless. That's not accidental - while such technologies are within the realm of possibility for the people of Aelithia, and have even been experimented with, but alchemy and magic provide much more reliable and workable alternatives. An arcane engine is easy to produce, reliable, and more efficient than early steamtech, and it would require decads of research to get it to the point where it's almost on par with existing technology, and since there's almost nothing you can do with them you can't already do with existing power sources, the global consensus was "not worth the time, money, and effort" - a mindset I hope is plausible and doesn't feel like a handwave.[/note]
- The Primeval Age:
The longest age in Aelithia's history, the Primeval age started at emergence of life millions of years ago and went to 10,000 years ago. The only records from this time are in the fossil records and the writings of some of the Aberrant races and outsiders that emerged during this time, but those are scattered. No clear picture of this age exists and likely ever will - all that's known is that it existed, but is not particularly historically relevant to any non-aberration. Records from those Aberrant races will appear later, but for the time being it doesn't matter.
- The Intellectual Age:
The name of this age is somewhat misleading: starting 10,000 years ago until 9,500 years ago, races across the globe suddenly developed intelligence, a revolution that kickstarted pretty much everything else. Again, records are scattered and hard to interpret as they were written mostly in proto-languages that were emerging at the time. The greatest mystery of this age is what, exactly, triggered this mass awakening of creatures, and the answer is a resounding "we can speculate", with theories that range from the experiments of aberrations and outsiders (or cross breeding with these creatures) direct divine intervention, cosmic rays, and other, stranger theories. However, that's all that can be really known of this age: intelligence happened, no one is sure why, and it completely changed the world.
[note=Evolution]Evolution does not work the way it does in the real world - instead, it's a product of something known as Drift, first defined by Epic Meepo long ago. I'll try to find the thread that detailed it, but for now all that you need to know is it happens over centuries or millennia instead of millions of years, and is largely responsible for the sheer number of creatures that exist in the world.[/note]
- The Wood Age:
From 9500 years ago to 8500 years ago, technology was dominated by wood and stone. The first civilizations began to emerge during this time period, spurred by the efforts of Dragons, giants, and other beings of similar intellect and power, who were waging a massive war of control with the Aberrant races that inhabited this world while the extraplanar creatures retreated to their old homes, not wanting to be drawn into the conflict. These wars spurred what was either the inclusion of or enslavement of "lesser" races into these civilizations and set the stage for what would have been total domination if not for the advancements of later Ages. The end result of this 1000 year war was an uneasy truce that still shapes the modern world. - The Divine Age:
From 8500 years ago to 4000 years ago, we see the beginning of magic and humanoid independence as divine power was beginning to be harvested, giving the "lesser races" a chance to fight back against their overlords - while never able to achieve complete freedom or extermination, they still managed in a few places to gain control or expel the beings that ruled them. The divine age is named because this was spurred entirely by the gods providing power to mortals, and almost all humanoid societies (as well as a number of societies that other beings ruled) were theocracies. Magitech was now in its infancy, with a great deal of time before it reached current levels.
[note=Other Power Sources]Psionics, Animism, Ki, Shadow, and others provided magical power prior to the Divine Age, but none of them sparked a revolution - they required much more energy than Divine, Arcane, or Alchemical sources, and unlike the latter three could not be used to create lasting effects, denying the creation of magitech. While these power sources still exist, they are not used to power technology and lack the global impact of the primary 3.[/note]
- The Arcane Age
Roughly 4000 years ago, arcane magic became part of Aelithia. The current theory for how this happened is the world passed through a nebula that introduced this power to the world, and like the intervention of divine magic, it sparked yet another revolution as mortals had access to more power, but powerful beings were also empowered. This saw a less radical power shift than the Divine Age, though many theocracies were overthrown or weakened. The most significant change during the arcane age was much more stable and common magitech - although it was still expensive and somewhat rare, it began having a constant influence over the world. Thryron was developed during this time, and many of the structural wonders we see in the modern world were built by arcanists nearly drunk on the possibilities of their newfound power. The arcane age ended about 1000 years ago, as a new power source was discovered that would change the globe once again. - The Alchemical Age:
Starting 1000 years ago and running to a mere 200 years ago, the Alchemical Age took advantage of the primary benefit of the arcane age: new chemicals were being produced as the waste of arcane spells, and people finally learned to harvest this magical waste - though they had been figuring it out for a couple hundred years. What really changed 200 y ears ago was the discovery that it was possible to reproduce or find these substances without them being magically generated, making alchemy the cheapest and easiest way to create widespread technology. Alchemical lights that would glow for months, firebombs, blastpowder, treatments for metal - all were developed over this 800 year period, and was the biggest technological advancement of history. - The Synthesis Age: (modern times)
During the Alchemical Age, magic and alchemy were largely viewed as incompatible or at odds - while alchemy was started from arcane waste, as soon as alchemy divorced itself from arcane power, it created the mindset that neither one or the other could work together, aside from arcane waste still being useful for alchemy. 200 years ago, that mindset changed, and socities being finding ways to combine the different power sources, using arcane power to compliment alchemy and visa-versa. This has lead to modern technology, reliable and constant, blending at times the arcane, the divine, and the alchemical to create wonders never before seen. In addition, the Synthesis Age has seen the augmentation of natural life, grafting golem pieces, necrotically animated limbs, and introducing mutagens that permanently alter a being, leading to what has become known as the Transmortal movement, some advocating constant development and artificial Drift of humanoids to put them on par with the Greater Races. This movement is only 25 years old, so has not gained a huge amount of traction yet, but it's adherents grow with every passing year - as do its detractors.
Realized belatedly that Technology needs to be outlined in at least some detail before I move into cultures, since technology influencing cultures is a vital part of Aelithia. So here's an overview:
Technology
Technology in Boundless falls into 3 major categories: mundane, alchemical, and magical. All of these have some overlap, but it's important to define each one on its own first.
Mundane
Mundane items are devices manufactured without alchemical components or imbued with enchantments. Swords, bows, castles, walls, houses, hammers, nails, carts, pots, pans...listing all possible mundane equipment is nigh impossible. What is important is why these items remain relevant in an age of magic and alchemy. The first, major reason, is simply a matter of cost: making a bow is much cheaper than an alchemical autobow ore firearm, enchanting the walls sounding an entire town is much more expensive than adding more stone. The second, lesser reason is ease of use - alchemical and magical tools require a higher degree of knowledge and training to use, and some magical items even require that the user has some magic of their own. The final reason, related to the second, is ease of manufacture: while a skilled blacksmith does require years of training, it only has the cost of an apprenticeship - on the other hand, a caster requires being accepted into the priesthood or spending the money to receive training at a mage's school, while alchemy (though possible through apprenticeship) is typically taught at universities that have a steeper cost to attend. All these factors keep mundane items in regular use, though their alchemical and magical counterparts are typically much more effective.
Alchemical
Many people still have a mistrust for Alchemical items, expecting them to be unstable or explosive or corrosive in some ways - an attitude that ignores 200 years of research and refinement. In modern times, if an alchemical item explodes, it's because it was designed to do so: even alchemical items that fail typically do so quietly, just failing to work, as opposed to detonating. The most common use of alchemy is treatment: taking a mundane item and applying formulas to it to strengthen or enhance it in some way: making steel stronger, wood more supple, stone less breakable. However, though that is the most common, it's by no means the best known, most iconic, or flashiest uses of this art. Alchemy permeates daily life: most cities are lit by glowfires, glass spheres that contain a substance that glow in the absence of light, alchemical concoctions treat a number of illnesses, special inks are used to mark important documents, plants and animals are treated with alchemical substances to make them better food, guardians, etc - or even just make them different, hybridizing them to create new fruits or unique creatures. Beyond that, Alchemy's military applications are best known for 'flasks' - vials that release an effect upon impact (fire being the most common one, but acid, poisonous gasses, flashes of light and sound, even preserved creatures or hallucinogenics all exist) and autobows, weapons that use an explosive propellant and a simple spring to allow them to shoot darts at an incredible rate. Firearms do exist, shooting actual pellets of metal to great effect, and though they cause more grievous injuries than autobows, they lack the accuracy of a dart or arrow.
Magic
Magic is the rarest and most expensive of the technologies, but also the most powerful and versatile: magic has been used for everything from high speed transit to creating floating buildings to moving fortresses to arcane firearms to energy shields to powered armors to golems and more. It feels almost weak to give Magic the shortest entry of the three, but that's because it needs to least explanation as an overview: how magic impacts the world will become apparent when we discuss particular technologies.
NEXT: Military Technology
[note=Screw Physics]In a setting where I'm trying to do as little handwaving as possible, I decided that one was needed - instead of trying to explain every weird instance of geography/physics, I'm only going to explain when I can. Otherwise, it's a handwave - it works the way I want it to work because it fits the feel, and I freely admit that I probably have no intention of explaining unless it proves to be too immersion breaking.[/note]Once again, realized that what I was going to post next just didn't fit what I needed - right now I need to get the general details down and then gradually expand upon them, same as I did in Terra Macabre. Plus, technology (especially in style and use) would vary by region, and I want to keep that from bogging down.
So, instead, I'm going to do a post about the Strange Geographies (TM), and once I get that down, do an overview of various regions and races/creatures. Once those are completed I should have finished the overview section of Boundless, and can start getting down to the finiky little details, like nations and weapons and cultures and all. :P
The Divisions of Aelithia:
It's varied geography means that, unlike the two divisions most worlds have (sea and land) or the third some add (underground), Aelithia is divided into 4 distinct types of terrain that are a category above forests, deserts, plains, etc.
1: The Ground:
This one is something that I feel the need to explain very little - mountians, rivers, plains, forests, cities, deserts - all of the terrain that you see on pretty much every world exists on the ground. There are some unique features even here I'll get into in my next post, but other than those it feels almost insulting to everyone's intelligence to expound upon here. The only thing I feel is noteworthy is there are some grounds that the Great Trees grow densely on and leave in perpetual twilight or even midnight, and the trunks of the Great Trees - especially where a Great Tree grows near a river - are often sides of major cities.
There are also a few areas that feature strange gasses - perpetual mists, sulfiric geysers, euphoric chemicals - but such regions are typically very isolated.
2: The Sea
Again, there is less to expand upon here since we're all familiar with it, but there's a bit more variance here than on the land. Not all oceans are purely water - the Bleeding Bay contains a number of chemicals that give it the texture and consistency of blood, seas of Breathwater - a fluid that can be breathed by both aquatic and terrestrial creatures - can be found, hyper saline oceans exist, and bodies of water of even stranger liquids exist.
These are prevented from defusing into each other by a number of factors - being landlocked, underwater mountains that break the surface just enough to keep too much overflow, an isolated source feeding into the ocean which causes it to diffuse upon existing a bay or canal, and even magical devices built by the Aberrant races (and later, the sea-dwelling humanoids who copied the designs) to prevent the diffusion from occurring.
3: The Deep Warrens:
Now we're getting to something different. The Deep Warrens (Also called the Deeps and the Underdark) is a region that sits below the surface of Aelithia, a vast interconnected network of tunnels and caverns lit sporadically by bioluminsenct fungus and veins of magma flowing through quartz tunnels, both supplemented by magical or alchemical light sources.
However, those features do not have the biggest impact on the races that live and venture into here - upon entering the Deep Warrens, gravity becomes much more...flexible. In particular, it becomes subjective - whatever surface you are standing on is "down", something that is often very disorienting to people unaccustomed to it's effects. This leads to some confounding structures - caverns where cities are built on all surfaces facing inwards, homes that use all 6 surfaces as living space, paths that curve and spiral around a tunnel to avoid obstructions, and even stranger still.
It is from these strange caverns that Floatstone is mined, the rock that can easily be enchanted to form the floating structures that characterize so many of Aelithia's greatest cities and wonders.
4: The Vast Canopy:
As mentioned in the ground briefly, the Vast Canopy is the byproduct of a species of life unique to Aelithia: the Great Trees (New name needed). With trunks that can easily reach a mile in diameter, the Great Trees rise miles and miles and miles into the sky before splitting off into branches high among the clouds.
Except in rare cases this canopy is not dense enough to significantly obscure sunlight to the ground below, the Trees for the most part being spread out at a significant distance. However, their branches grow thick and long, and in many cases form "weaves", areas where two branches from separate trees intersect and begin branching out into a complex network of branches as sturdy as an incredibly thick basket. Among these weaves live some of the aerial races, building cities that cover the entire weave, and the lairs of Drakes, Dragons, and other flying creatures can be found bored into the trees themselves or at the apex of an individual tree.
What I'm Stealing From Where:
Since this setting is a mashup of my previous settings, I figured it'd be interesting to make a post showing what I'm taking from where.
Sreth (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,16717.0.html) Reading over this setting, I almost don't want to cannibalize it and instead revisit it, but doing so defeats the purpose of a mashup. Instead, Sreth is a continent of Aelithia, and a sizable one at that – and one that has an interior that is rather unfriendly to habitation. However, that has not prevented people from entering the continent and attempting to establish a foothold due to the abundance of resources located within. While such expansion has been somewhat successful, the interior of the continent is in many places lawless and dangerous: keeping the old west wuxia horror tone of the original setting. The races from this setting are being brought over, as are Dementia and Rot – Sreth was once an Aberrant stronghold that was razed during the Sapience War, leading to it's current state, but the twisted and foul magics of the Aberrants combined with the powerful spells have left an indelible mark on the world. However, it's being toned down from the original setting to prevent a devolution into an outright Boogerville.
Thaedia (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,4392.0.html) This setting was very strongly tied into the concept of its history and apocalypse, so less is theivable from there without putting some major changes into Boundless – however, I love many of the races I have them, and plan on modifying them slightly before importing them into Boundless.
Datrik (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,4696.0.html) The Lowerlands of Datrik are a clear inspiration for the Deep Warrens of Aelithia, and once again I am lifting races and creatures from this setting after modifying them to fit into Boundless, but not much beyond that.
Verdant Apocalypse (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,8096.msg8108.html#msg8108) Like Sreth, this is one of my best early attempts at a setting, so is getting a lift, makeover, and then being plopped down as a region of Aelithia known as the Verdant Expanse. The big change from original setting is that, while the Expanse does threaten to overwhelm the continent in question, it doesn't threaten the rest of the world.
One thing to draw from this is my design philosophy for Boundless: While I intend on making the setting a unified whole, I intend on including a number of "settings within a setting", where a DM could run a game entirely in Sreth or the Verdant Expanse and never have players visit the rest of the world, which will create much more unified tones while still allowing the option to visit new, wondrous lands.
What are you looking for in a consultant? I definitely feel the need to consult for all you've done for me. And also for how much I'm liking the ideas here.
I already told you that I liked the way you posted the history; it allows you to get a feel for the whole world's history without having to explain it region by region. It is definitely an overview style that I will copy for my setting, as I was already near it but somehow was traveling in a different direction.
Specifically to your setting, the progression of ages gives a great feel of the world. I'm assuming there was no magic for mortals before the divine age, and am even assuming that the power the aberrants and dragons have isn't considered "magic" in the same terms that mortals consider magic. One thing that comes to my mind is this: are you prepared for a world where everyone has to rely upon magic? Or is it the same as how we all rely upon technology in a d20 modern game? Perhaps I get too hung up on the notion of being able to play different options that I fixate on the wrong feature.
The other thing that requires immediate attention are your handlings of the Underdark and your Vast Canopy. Both ideas are so awesome that I want to steal them, but I don't really have a place for them (I could shove them into Avalon, but I won't). I'd love to play in a game that took place solely in the Underdark, learning to utilize the way walls would impact combat. The Canopy is also an amazing, and achieves that great thing of making the world feel truly fantastic (something I'm going to be trying hard to do in Avalon).
Quote from: Xeviat
What are you looking for in a consultant? I definitely feel the need to consult for all you've done for me. And also for how much I'm liking the ideas here.
Thanks! As for what I'm looking for: any suggestions or questions. I don't particularly need flattery, my ego is big enough as is, but suggestions or questions get me thinking more than anything else, and a ton of the times I develop a setting based largely around the questions I'm asked or from inspiration I get from suggestions.
QuoteI already told you that I liked the way you posted the history; it allows you to get a feel for the whole world's history without having to explain it region by region. It is definitely an overview style that I will copy for my setting, as I was already near it but somehow was traveling in a different direction.
I'm glad to hear how helpful it's been! I'm probably going to, when I get to the region by region part, do the same thing for each one, codifying it into ages and giving an overview of major events - but probably never a year-by-year breakdown, because those are both painful to right and, in my opinion, painfully dull to read.
QuoteSpecifically to your setting, the progression of ages gives a great feel of the world. I'm assuming there was no magic for mortals before the divine age, and am even assuming that the power the aberrants and dragons have isn't considered "magic" in the same terms that mortals consider magic.
Thanks - I wanted to make it clear that the world was old but humanoids were young and new to the stage, and it sounds like I achieved that. And there was magic prior to the divine age in the forms of psionics (the primary magic of aberrations, but still accessible by humanoids), Anima (a rebranding of Ki) and shamanism. All of these had the major flaw, however, of not being able to permanently alter anything - if these were the only magics in a setting, the setting's technology would be medieval Europe.
QuoteOne thing that comes to my mind is this: are you prepared for a world where everyone has to rely upon magic? Or is it the same as how we all rely upon technology in a d20 modern game? Perhaps I get too hung up on the notion of being able to play different options that I fixate on the wrong feature.
Prepared for it? My friend, I embrace it! The idea is to retain a fantasy feel while still having magic/alchemy relied upon the same way technology is in the real world - a challenge I gave myself, but one I hope I can pull off. If I ever feel it can't be done, I look at that picture I posted - it's undeniably fantasy, but also undeniably magitech. That's what I'm going for and hoping to achieve.
QuoteThe other thing that requires immediate attention are your handlings of the Underdark and your Vast Canopy. Both ideas are so awesome that I want to steal them, but I don't really have a place for them (I could shove them into Avalon, but I won't). I'd love to play in a game that took place solely in the Underdark, learning to utilize the way walls would impact combat. The Canopy is also an amazing, and achieves that great thing of making the world feel truly fantastic (something I'm going to be trying hard to do in Avalon).
Thank you so much. :D The Underdark is an extension of an idea I've been working on since I first posted Datrik here back in 2006, so it's had 5 years to brew and form, while the Vast Canopy was trying to create sky islands without "floating islands" that are commonly used. I'm so glad to hear they worked out, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with for Avalon - if these are in any way inspirational for that, then I feel I did a job well done (I believe the goal of any creative work is to inspire others to be creative. :) )
EDIT: As as to actually answer your post, I will be delving into these (SEE WHAT I DID THAR?) once I get done with my series of overviews, but I need to get the "core" elements of the setting on the forums in broad outlines before I get into any details, otherwise I'll get myself bogged down - if the entire thing is outlined in broad strokes, then I feel I've gotten to the point where I can safely delve into individual aspects.
My gods, so much to read in this thread! I'll catch up eventually (half way down so far), but until then, here's my initial reaction:
If you want a larger world with earth-normal gravity, there are a few physics-consistent options: 1) the world has the same general structre, but the crust is thicker and damned near hollowed out with underground catacombs. This would reduce the density of the planet, and thus lower its surface gravity. It also gives you an extensive Underdark. 2) the planet has an icy core, and thus has a lower density. Additionally, if you want any moderately accurate solar system, I can help with this. I have several spreadsheats aimed at constructing realistic solar systems.
Also, I'd suggest holding off picking a system until the setting is complete, or until you settle some major questions like How does magic work? That sort of thing, combined with how much work you want to put into houseruling things, can largely affect your choice of system.
I'll comment on the rest of the thread tomorrow. This looks quite interesting!
I think you have a good base here, as far as tone and them goes. What about something a bit more specific? A city, a kingdom?
Quote from: Humabout
My gods, so much to read in this thread! I'll catch up eventually (half way down so far), but until then, here's my initial reaction:
I go big or go home on settings. :P
QuoteIf you want a larger world with earth-normal gravity, there are a few physics-consistent options: 1) the world has the same general structre, but the crust is thicker and damned near hollowed out with underground catacombs. This would reduce the density of the planet, and thus lower its surface gravity. It also gives you an extensive Underdark. 2) the planet has an icy core, and thus has a lower density. Additionally, if you want any moderately accurate solar system, I can help with this. I have several spreadsheats aimed at constructing realistic solar systems.
I haven't even thought about the solar system yet - but when I get to that point (because the idea of a solar system existing that matters is giving me some ideas for later) I will ask for help. And, funnily enough, the first idea (Making the world somewhat hollow) perfectly compensates for gravity on the surface, since the Deep Warrens are huge and vast and hollow and, well, would reduce density. Not sure on icy core - will get to that part when I decide if the Deep Warrens go far enough where that matters.
QuoteAlso, I'd suggest holding off picking a system until the setting is complete, or until you settle some major questions like How does magic work? That sort of thing, combined with how much work you want to put into houseruling things, can largely affect your choice of system.
You've got a point there, but I like having a system in mind because it gives me inspiration. I may well change systems to something totally different later on or even just make up a new one, but for now I'm going to pretend I've chosen a system. :P
Quote
I'll comment on the rest of the thread tomorrow. This looks quite interesting!
I look forward to it, and thanks for the feedback! :)
Quote from: Señor Leetz
I think you have a good base here, as far as tone and them goes. What about something a bit more specific? A city, a kingdom?
That post will come after my next one - next up is going to be an overview of races...though I might jump straight to a city/kingdom to give a better feel for the setting. Will ponder that one.
Questions then:
1) You said you aren't worrying about what kind of adventures the setting will suit, but that you want the setting to suit everything. What feel are you going for? What would the first adventure/campaign that you would want to run in the setting be (without player input that is)?
2) Which classic/standard dnd/tolkienesque races are you going to use? I know you're going to use a lot.
3) Are there things that arcane magic can't do, but divine can? What are the storybased compensatory elements to psionics, anima (great name, may steal, been looking for a "western" sounding word for Ki), and shamanism (I'm assuming "primal" as D&D4 calls it)?
4) What era of Earth would you say magitech pushes things? Industrial Age? Modern? Information Age? Near Future?
5) If the world is so magical, do the other classes use magic from items, or do they have a bit of their own? Is a naked fighter balanced against a naked wizard? Can anyone perform alchemy? Does it just take some training, or is it a lifestyle (as in a feat, or a class, in d20 terms)?
Quote from: Xeviat
Questions then:
1) You said you aren't worrying about what kind of adventures the setting will suit, but that you want the setting to suit everything. What feel are you going for? What would the first adventure/campaign that you would want to run in the setting be (without player input that is)?
First thing I'd want to run here? A very classic "there's a nearby problem we need help dealing with" that has elements of intrigue (The nearby problem was actually working for a local magistrate) and combat. Something simple and basic to get a feel for the setting. :P I know that's not very helpful, but thinking about kinds of games to run almost always kills settings for me when I'm this early in development.
FEEL, on the other hand, is something I can't definitely comment on. I want it to feel fantastic - high fantasy like is almost never done. I want people to feel like they've stepped into the future but the world is magical, like they can pick up a sword or an arcane sniper rifle and either way fit right in. I want the setting to be awesome, and not in the modern sense, but in the original, where the vistas and the landscapes and the settings take your breath away and are things you would never, ever be able to encounter anywhere on Earth. That's what Boundless is about - bringing the fantastic back into Fantasy.
Quote2) Which classic/standard dnd/tolkienesque races are you going to use? I know you're going to use a lot.
Most if not all. Elves, Dwarves (sigh), Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Hobgoblins, Halflings, Gnomes (sigh), Lizardfolk, Centuars, variants thereof...if it's humanoid and playable, you'd be able to find it somewhere. Now, I'll be splitting it up some by region, either having a race absent or having a different subtype in a particular region, but if you look hard enough you'll be able to find the overwhelming majority of them, except for ones I find stupid and aren't as iconic as dwarves and gnomes, much as I dislike both races. :P
Quote3) Are there things that arcane magic can't do, but divine can? What are the storybased compensatory elements to psionics, anima (great name, may steal, been looking for a "western" sounding word for Ki), and shamanism (I'm assuming "primal" as D&D4 calls it)?
To the first, yes in both directions. Divine magic can heal and protect much better, whereas arcane is much better at blowing things up...and it's much better at creating a permanent magic item. Divine items are a bit cheaper to make but require faith to use, where an arcane item works for whoever can operate it.
To the second, the benefit of shamanism, psionics, and anima is twofold. First, items that protect against/nullify magic typically are not geared towards defending against the powers of those three sources, making them usable in areas where they would not normally be. Secondly, none of them are detectable until the effects manifest, so they have more subtle impacts. From a story perspective, shamanism is mostly going out of style - only a few limited groups still cling to it, so a shaman is viewed as strange and wondrous...and most people don't know anymore what they can actually do. Psions are uniquely suited for battling aberrant creatures on their own terms and have a keen insight into them, since they share the same power source, and unlike the other two can waggle their fingers and mutter things and everyone will assume they're an arcanist. Animists have the advantages you'd expect from ki users - viewed as mysterious, wise, and extremely well trained and disciplined, the latter of which are almost always true.
Quote4) What era of Earth would you say magitech pushes things? Industrial Age? Modern? Information Age? Near Future?
Near Future if we skipped the Information Age and the modern age happened without mass production. It creates a really weird result: the technology is futuristic, but there aren't assembly lines cranking things out (through golems do much of the work). As such, it feels futuristic...but buildings still use actual stone and wood, metal/chainmail armor is still worn, and animals provide the most reliable means of transportation on land.
Quote5) If the world is so magical, do the other classes use magic from items, or do they have a bit of their own? Is a naked fighter balanced against a naked wizard? Can anyone perform alchemy? Does it just take some training, or is it a lifestyle (as in a feat, or a class, in d20 terms)?
Every class can get magic from items, of course, and there will be at least one (if not two or three) variant classes for each class that will give them access to either magic or alchemy or both. A fighter, for example, might have a variant class that gives them a limited selection of supernatural abilities in place of the armor bonuses they get in pathfinder, or a different variant class where they have additional training in alchemy and can use alchemical items (especially explosives) better at the cost of some bonus feats.
Alchemy is as easy as engineering or chemistry is in the real world: the very basics of it pretty much anyone could manage (Moving something with a lever is a feat of engineering we could all figure out, as is baking soda + vinegar), but the more advanced and complex uses require extensive training OR apprenticeship.
In d20 terms, to build and make the most of alchemical items, it requires feats and/or a class, but any class can use an alchemical item - not much training is needed in that regard, you just won't be able to fix it if something goes wrong. (There will be feats for "Alchemical Weapon Proficiency", "Alchemical Armor Proficiency" and "Mutagen Proficiency," as well as related feats for arcane items, so you need some training to use them without penalty.)
Thanks for the questions, keep them coming! :D
On Steam, Diesel & Clockwork: So long as it's cheaper to make things with magic than to use other technology, it shouldn't feel like a handwave. This would, of course, include mass production - that's really where these things took off. Remember that there's always the possibility of combining them. Frex, a magical eternal flame of insane heat could replace the heat source of any steam turbine, from charcoal-burning trains to nuclear power plants.
On Other Power Sources: This is completely disregarding system, but it's worth considering. How do these sources interact with Arcane, Divine, and Alchemical sources? Psionics and Ki draw on inner energies (I'm assuming), so can they even be blocked by magic of any kind? You mention Animism; I assume you are refering to shamanistic magic that utilizes spirits? If so, how does that really differ from utilizing gods? They both rely on outside sources of power, except that where the shaman sticks to little guys, clerics go balls to the wall and tap God on the shoulder.
On Screw Physics: An easy way I've found to handle this sort of thing is to stipulate that physics always works, but it gets trumped by magic. That is, magic allows mages to do whatever they can imagine, but as soon as the magic ends, physics takes over again. A mage might create a 7-ton stone floating 8.72 inches off of the ground, but as soon as that spell ends, the physics will take over and the stone will come crashing down. Fantastic landscapes are awesome, and if you want to explain them with minimal handwavium, you might give them further depth and discuss the magic that keeps the location from responding to physics.
On The Intellectual Age: Alien genetic therapies dammit! Mus thave alien conspiracies! Heck, Baba Yaga was just a transdimensional alien who spun around Eastern Europe in her hut-with-chicken-legs-shaped spaceship!
On The Synthesis Age: Did you just cram transhumanism into this? Dammit!
Quesitons!
So what sort of sociopolitical organization does the world have? Have they developed nation-states? Are they still clan-based? It makes a big difference in the end, because nation-states can pool tremendous resources. If a nation-state wants to equip all of its soldiers with alchemical auto-bows, it can just blow the money on its defense budget. A clan doesn't have the resources to do that. Just something to consider.
That's all I have for now. I'll have to find a few extra lifetimes (I suspect) to catch up on the other settings you reference. If you'd like me to look at something specific, let me know and I'll start there.
Quote from: Humabout
On Steam, Diesel & Clockwork: So long as it's cheaper to make things with magic than to use other technology, it shouldn't feel like a handwave. This would, of course, include mass production - that's really where these things took off. Remember that there's always the possibility of combining them. Frex, a magical eternal flame of insane heat could replace the heat source of any steam turbine, from charcoal-burning trains to nuclear power plants.
It's cheaper and more effective - I am reconsidering my stance on clockwork and steam because the one advantage they have over arcane and alchemical is the one you mentioned, and that's the ability of mass production. I hadn't considered clockwork/steam that uses magic/alchemy as a power source - at that point, I can see it fitting it. However, part of this comes down to tone - I'm not sure how much I want that in the setting. But a goal of mine was looking at the logical implementation of magic, and it's harder to ignore now that that's been pointed out. The initial idea I had behind why it wasn't developed - because they already had magic and alchemy and those worked just fine, so why put the effort into developing clockwork and steam when we have something that works - does kind of break down when you consider mass production.
QuoteOn Other Power Sources: This is completely disregarding system, but it's worth considering. How do these sources interact with Arcane, Divine, and Alchemical sources? Psionics and Ki draw on inner energies (I'm assuming), so can they even be blocked by magic of any kind?
You assume correctly as to where they come from - and magic can block them, but it's exponentially more difficult to block them than it is to counter other sources of "classic" magic. Add that to the fact that a magic user has to be prepared for it, and psionics and ki give very little warning to when they're going off, and for the most part it's very dangerous to mages. That being said, what they can counter is some of the effects of those powers: a bolt of kinetic energy from a psion is still force, and can be blocked same way a mace could, and someone empowering their fists with ki still needs the fist to connect. It's much less efficient and much more dangerous than dealing with other classic magic OR dealing with mundane weaponry, but magic users aren't completely at the mercy of a psion or monk.
QuoteYou mention Animism; I assume you are refering to shamanistic magic that utilizes spirits? If so, how does that really differ from utilizing gods? They both rely on outside sources of power, except that where the shaman sticks to little guys, clerics go balls to the wall and tap God on the shoulder.
You assume correctly again, though Anima is the re branding of ki to make it more western, and Shamanism is typically used to refer to communing with spirits. The end result of Shamanism and Divine magic is very similar, with one major difference - a spirit doesn't have the sustaining power to maintain a magic item or power one (without killing itself, and a shaman who is willing to try and make spirits do that will likely find spirits unwilling to answer his calls). In short, Shamanism almost always results in short term effects, while Divine magic can create longer effects since the gods have a lot more power to spare once they've been tapped on the shoulder.
QuoteOn Screw Physics: An easy way I've found to handle this sort of thing is to stipulate that physics always works, but it gets trumped by magic. That is, magic allows mages to do whatever they can imagine, but as soon as the magic ends, physics takes over again. A mage might create a 7-ton stone floating 8.72 inches off of the ground, but as soon as that spell ends, the physics will take over and the stone will come crashing down. Fantastic landscapes are awesome, and if you want to explain them with minimal handwavium, you might give them further depth and discuss the magic that keeps the location from responding to physics.
The big thing is I want that stone to be able to stay floating. I'm going to explain fantastic structures and items and such without handwavium (really, that's the point of much of this setting), but things like how the Great Trees grow so tall, why the air up there is still easily breathable, why the Underdark's gravity is just "whatever you're standing on is down," I would have to spend pages of pages explaining something that ultimately works just as well as "That's the way it works."
QuoteOn The Intellectual Age: Alien genetic therapies dammit! Mus thave alien conspiracies! Heck, Baba Yaga was just a transdimensional alien who spun around Eastern Europe in her hut-with-chicken-legs-shaped spaceship!
Hahaha! The idea that Aberrations (who might as well be aliens) sparked intelligence is one that's been floated around - so in short, yes, that is a theory. Especially since Aberrations have psionics, the magic of the mind, and would have an easy time making things intelligent - the only problem with this theory is "Why the hell would they create rivals to themselves?", but then again, the answer could be "Because they don't think the way we do" or "They're batshit crazy" or "It seemed like a good idea at the time" - if they are the source of intellect, the Aberrations aren't sharing why, and aren't answering yes or no. (Unless eating your brain is their way of saying yes or no.)
QuoteOn The Synthesis Age: Did you just cram transhumanism into this? Dammit!
Yes, yes I did. Couldn't resist. :)
QuoteQuesitons!
So what sort of sociopolitical organization does the world have? Have they developed nation-states? Are they still clan-based? It makes a big difference in the end, because nation-states can pool tremendous resources. If a nation-state wants to equip all of its soldiers with alchemical auto-bows, it can just blow the money on its defense budget. A clan doesn't have the resources to do that. Just something to consider.
There are nation-states and city states - most clans are either in environments so inhospitable that modernization hasn't caught up with them yet, have something backing them powerful enough to keep them, or have been wiped out/integrated. So there are cases where nations have a large portion of their forces equipped with alchemical or arcane or (in the case of Theocracies) divine weapons - typically nations or city states that either have an expansionist or military mindset, or nations that share a border with a group in the former category.
QuoteThat's all I have for now. I'll have to find a few extra lifetimes (I suspect) to catch up on the other settings you reference. If you'd like me to look at something specific, let me know and I'll start there.
No need to really look at the other settings - the relevant material from them will appear here, it was just fun for me to point out some of my inspirations for people who remember those settings and for my own enjoyment. Not reading them will in no way diminsh what you find in Boundless once I life, polish, and mash. :P
Because I like putting things in game terms, have you considered the results of "over equipping" an army? Giving those soldiers equipment that makes them far more powerful, either offensively or defensively (or both), raises the challenge they pose, no? Or does the training required to wield magical rifles and such come with the requisite levels for them to be assumed?
My point is, if a group were to be fighting an army of conscripts equipped with lightning guns, would dropping explosions on them wipe out tons of people as you'd expect it to in the real world, or would they also be equipped with the defensive equipment to bring them up to par.
Not sure why this came to mind. It's something I noticed when looking at the technology ages in d20 Modern and Future; late era people are significantly more their equipment. It may make things a bit pain to balance while still having the semblance of believability.
Frankly, the thing about modern armies is that they are their equipment and the training to use it. Even in older times, this was the case, but to a much smaller extent. The pike is a great example of this: you surround some slow-firing musketeers with ranks of men with really long, pointy sticks. This lets an entire block of men stab at opponents while the musketeers get ready to unleash hell. Then the musketeers get to shoot at whatever they want, and the pikesmen resume marching stabity death. That's more efficient than a highly-trained mounted knight. Period. It has to do with the fact that an increase in the number of combatants on one side of an encounter results in an increase in effectiveness proportional to the square of the increase in number. So a group of two combatants who can engage an enemy force simultaneously is 4 times (2^2) as effective as a group of 1 comtatant. Ranged weapons or really long pole weapons allow you to implement this in ways that the classic knight cannot.
Now, take that and mix in technology. Guns are force multipiers. Equip a bunch of yokels with guns, and the lethality and range of guns will make up for lack of training. Do this on a large scale and you've got a conscript army who could easily be more effective than a highly-trained, highly-mobile corps of mounted knights. That's why the US Army doesn't employ men in massive plate armor armed with the modern equivalent of a pointy stick.
All of that said, the ability of a nation-state to easily hire and equip such an army is somethign ot take into consideration. Why don't these nation-states trounce everyone else into submission? How do city-states even continue to exist? What about fueldal societies? They'll ge their clocks cleaned, too. And none of this addresses the economic advantages of a nation-state over all other forms. There's a reason the real world doesn't have city-states anymore (no Tongo and Narua don't count dammit!).
Quote from: Xeviat
Because I like putting things in game terms, have you considered the results of "over equipping" an army? Giving those soldiers equipment that makes them far more powerful, either offensively or defensively (or both), raises the challenge they pose, no? Or does the training required to wield magical rifles and such come with the requisite levels for them to be assumed?
There's a degree of training beyond what a simple soldier needs to use the more advanced weapons - in game terms, the feats to remove the penalties on alchemical/arcane weapons have a BAB requirement (though many classes offer them at an earlier level as a class feature). However, common soldier's and non-elite military members will have levels in one of the NPC classes I'll be creating, so they'd need that training to make the best use of those weapons.
That being said, you can give someone an arcane rifle, say "Point this end at the bad thing and push this to make it go pew pew" and while they won't be particularly accurate with it, it'd still do some damage - but you'd likely be better served in terms of investment giving them a crossbow or an autobow at most.
QuoteMy point is, if a group were to be fighting an army of conscripts equipped with lightning guns, would dropping explosions on them wipe out tons of people as you'd expect it to in the real world, or would they also be equipped with the defensive equipment to bring them up to par.
If they were fighting conscripts, the group would likely be able to kill a decent number of them - though the fact that the lightning guns would be touch attacks would make the conscripts more likely to hit and help compensate for the penalty to the rolls. Special Ops types - who would be more likely to go up against a group of PCs anyway - would have defensive gear and advanced training to keep them at par.
QuoteNot sure why this came to mind. It's something I noticed when looking at the technology ages in d20 Modern and Future; late era people are significantly more their equipment. It may make things a bit pain to balance while still having the semblance of believability.
Yeah, it's something I'm working on, and the mechanical aspects of this are easily the most fluid part of this setting. It's going to be a trick to make work, but should be awesome if I can pull it off.
Quoterankly, the thing about modern armies is that they are their equipment and the training to use it. Even in older times, this was the case, but to a much smaller extent. The pike is a great example of this: you surround some slow-firing musketeers with ranks of men with really long, pointy sticks. This lets an entire block of men stab at opponents while the musketeers get ready to unleash hell. Then the musketeers get to shoot at whatever they want, and the pikesmen resume marching stabity death. That's more efficient than a highly-trained mounted knight. Period. It has to do with the fact that an increase in the number of combatants on one side of an encounter results in an increase in effectiveness proportional to the square of the increase in number. So a group of two combatants who can engage an enemy force simultaneously is 4 times (2^2) as effective as a group of 1 comtatant. Ranged weapons or really long pole weapons allow you to implement this in ways that the classic knight cannot.
Now, take that and mix in technology. Guns are force multipiers. Equip a bunch of yokels with guns, and the lethality and range of guns will make up for lack of training. Do this on a large scale and you've got a conscript army who could easily be more effective than a highly-trained, highly-mobile corps of mounted knights. That's why the US Army doesn't employ men in massive plate armor armed with the modern equivalent of a pointy stick.
Keep in mind that these factors don't take into account a number of things that exist in a fantasy setting. Men on drakes, force fields, magic armor, reflective abilities - unlike in the real world, defensive abilities scale with and sometimes exceed attack abilities.
QuoteAll of that said, the ability of a nation-state to easily hire and equip such an army is somethign ot take into consideration. Why don't these nation-states trounce everyone else into submission? How do city-states even continue to exist? What about fueldal societies? They'll ge their clocks cleaned, too. And none of this addresses the economic advantages of a nation-state over all other forms. There's a reason the real world doesn't have city-states anymore (no Tongo and Narua don't count dammit!).
First of all, equipping an entire army with these devices is cost prohibitive - it'd be like putting the entire US army in tanks. Would be incredibly powerful, but expensive as all hell. And city-states exist because of one factor: Spellwebs, large magical fields that grant those attuned to them superior abilities (Spell like abilities, fast healing, flight, etc) that make them extremely tough nuts to crack.
QuoteKeep in mind that these factors don't take into account a number of things that exist in a fantasy setting. Men on drakes, force fields, magic armor, reflective abilities - unlike in the real world, defensive abilities scale with and sometimes exceed attack abilities.
Everything you've mentioned is a force multiplier. And quite often defensive ability does exceed attack capabilities. Brigandine armor often was proof against firearms, as was full plate. Today, a man with a machinegun can open fire on a tank and just chip the paint. That sort of thing is a multiplied by the number fo men present. You then square that. So yeah, it matters, but not as much as the size of the force.
Interstingly, this sort of thing makes a difference in PC tactics, as well. Multiple PCs concentrating on one foe at a time will fare better than if everyone squares off against a different threat. Using RL tactics can be a fun excercise and freaking out your GM!
QuoteFirst of all, equipping an entire army with these devices is cost prohibitive - it'd be like putting the entire US army in tanks. Would be incredibly powerful, but expensive as all hell. And city-states exist because of one factor: Spellwebs, large magical fields that grant those attuned to them superior abilities (Spell like abilities, fast healing, flight, etc) that make them extremely tough nuts to crack.
Fair enough, but remember that a nation-state could put all of their soldiers in low-quality full plate and give everyone a sword and shield (like Rome did). They could have entire "tank" corps, and field forces of griffon-mounted knights, as well. A big city-state might have 70,000 people within its walls and its surrounding countryside (realisticly, anyway). Larger than that and you historically tend toward fuedalism, nation-states, or empires.
I don't know about spellwebs, but the power a nation-state can draw to bear is tremendous in comparison with a city-state. It's just a sense of scale as much as anything. For example, AThens' army at the Battle of Marathon was about 10,000 strong. The Imperial Army of the Holy Roman Empire (Germany) was 40,000 strong, and Rome at its height had an army of 450,000 soldiers. That would give the Holy Roman Empire 16-1 odds against the athenians, all things equal, and 2,025-1 against the Romans.
Quote from: Humabout
QuoteKeep in mind that these factors don't take into account a number of things that exist in a fantasy setting. Men on drakes, force fields, magic armor, reflective abilities - unlike in the real world, defensive abilities scale with and sometimes exceed attack abilities.
Everything you've mentioned is a force multiplier. And quite often defensive ability does exceed attack capabilities. Brigandine armor often was proof against firearms, as was full plate. Today, a man with a machinegun can open fire on a tank and just chip the paint. That sort of thing is a multiplied by the number fo men present. You then square that. So yeah, it matters, but not as much as the size of the force.
I see your point here. Honestly, I can't really find a flaw in that logic at this point. :P
QuoteInterstingly, this sort of thing makes a difference in PC tactics, as well. Multiple PCs concentrating on one foe at a time will fare better than if everyone squares off against a different threat. Using RL tactics can be a fun excercise and freaking out your GM!
Same principle applies to focus firing in RTS's and FPS's - each target you kill is one less target that can damage you. The downside is if your DM gets wise, he'll employ monsters smart enough to do the same, and even if it doesn't mean a wipe, it increases PC death rates significantly.
QuoteQuoteFirst of all, equipping an entire army with these devices is cost prohibitive - it'd be like putting the entire US army in tanks. Would be incredibly powerful, but expensive as all hell. And city-states exist because of one factor: Spellwebs, large magical fields that grant those attuned to them superior abilities (Spell like abilities, fast healing, flight, etc) that make them extremely tough nuts to crack.
Fair enough, but remember that a nation-state could put all of their soldiers in low-quality full plate and give everyone a sword and shield (like Rome did). They could have entire "tank" corps, and field forces of griffon-mounted knights, as well. A big city-state might have 70,000 people within its walls and its surrounding countryside (realisticly, anyway). Larger than that and you historically tend toward fuedalism, nation-states, or empires.
I don't know about spellwebs, but the power a nation-state can draw to bear is tremendous in comparison with a city-state. It's just a sense of scale as much as anything. For example, AThens' army at the Battle of Marathon was about 10,000 strong. The Imperial Army of the Holy Roman Empire (Germany) was 40,000 strong, and Rome at its height had an army of 450,000 soldiers. That would give the Holy Roman Empire 16-1 odds against the athenians, all things equal, and 2,025-1 against the Romans.
The big advantage of spellwebs is, for example, applying a healing effect to your entire army, or perhaps a sustained fast healing, increasing their damage and strength, empowering their arrows and weapons, giving them flight - plus the advantage of sustaining them during a siege.
And, even if spellwebs are not that powerful, even if realistically they'd be overwhelmed, it'd be a matter of terrain and, well, I'm willing to apply the rule of cool and say "They exist because I like them existing." :P
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This is just a sample of what I'm looking at, statistically, for some alchemical/clockwork weapons. :)
Alchemical
Ranged Weapons | Cost | Damage (S) | Damage (M) | Critical | Range | Weight | Type | Clip Size | Special |
| Clipbow | 140 gp | 1d6 | 1d8 | 19-20/x3 | 30ft | 2lbs | Bal. | 4 | - |
| Longshot | 160 gp | 1d8 | 1d10 | 19-20/x3 | 60ft | 4lbs | Bal. | 6 | - |
| Farbow | 200 gp | 2d4 | 2d6 | 19-20/x3 | 100ft | 4lbs | Bal. | 3 | - |
| Autobow (Pistol) | 300 gp | 1d6 | 1d8 | 19-20/x3 | 30ft | 4lbs | Bal. | 20 | Autofire |
| Autoshot | 400 gp | 1d8 | 1d10 | 19-20/x3 | 60ft | 8lbs | Bal. | 30 | Autofire |
| Spraybow | 350 gp | 2d4 | 2d6 | 19-20/x3 | 10ft | 4lbs | Bal. | 2 | Burst |
| Dragon's Breath | 300 gp | 2d4 | 2d6 | - | 30ft* | 10lbs | Fire | 1 | Cone |
| Acid Spit | 325 gp | 1d6 | 1d8 | x2 | 20ft | 7lbs | Acid | 1 | Clinging |
Autofire: A weapon with autofire can be fired in one of two ways, aside from the normal shooting method. When a weapon of autofire has a full clip, it can be used to either fill a 10ft spread, forcing all targets within the spread to make a reflex save (DC 13) for half damage. Second, it can be used to fill a 20 ft by 5 ft line, either straight from the shooter to a space straight away, or a line that runes parallel from the shooter - again, a reflex save (DC 13) cuts the damage in half. This DC increases with the weapon's enchantment bonus. Doing so completely empties the weapon's clip.
Burst: A burst weapon, upon hitting the target, forces its target to make a DC 13 reflex save or be knocked prone. This DC increases with the weapon's enchantment bonus.
Clinging: A weapon with the clinging quality does its damage again on the round after its initial attack, unless the user makes a DC13 reflex save. This DC increases with the weapon's enchantment bonus.
Cone: A cone weapon does it's damage in a cone and does not extend beyond its first range increment. A reflex save (DC 13) halves the damage. This DC increases with the weapon's enchantment bonus.
Clips:
A clip costs 1-10gp, depending on size and weapon type.
I've begun to realize that focusing on a single, massive project is a bad idea, and I'm going to break this setting back up into component pieces - but use the elements from Boundless that are unique to it to create a setting in and of itself. Basically, instead of having one huge sweeping project, I'm going to have 4-5 smaller projects (Right now, I have Terra Macabre (which I'm going to shave some things off of that were making the setting too large and complex), Aelithia, X20/E6, and strongly considering Sreth and Sooth 2.0) So this setting isn't dead, it's just getting put on a diet and workout regime.