Since we got kicked out of the tavern for talking about linguistics and conlanging, here's a fun place to discuss it!
My initial task here will be to come up with a naming language for th locale I'm focusing on first. I figure it's at least the third generation of a mother tongue for the region. After a bit of thought and much cringing at the prospect of actually inventing three different languages, I'm going to start with the local language and as the need arises, reverse morph it into its parent language and branch off from there.
So I'll start with Y and later morph it into X and use that as the mutal parent language for Y and Z, for example. I really want to do it this way because it'll give a lot of flavor if as the PCs leave their home town, the climate changes, the people change, and even the names of things change. I think it's one of those little details that'll play on the subconcious.
Another thing I'll do is transliterate foreign or really old names into the modern, local tongue. That'll give them the feel of being different and adopted, I think. An example of this would be spelling "Happy Chinese New Year" as "Hapi Chainis Niu Yir" for a Spanish speaker. Engrish forms another (and probably better) example of this.
Anyone have any thoughts or comments on the best way to tackle this sort of thing? Or evne just how ya'll do it? Or if you think I'm nuts for even attemptig it?
It's a cool idea, I like it when people put this kind of linguistic effort into a setting as it can make for some wicked names and stuff - I'm very into having cool names. I can't really give any advice though, as I don't do it myself, I just choose cool names and try and make them sound like they're backed up by a concrete system - often by just using archaic/obscure/foreign names from the real world.
Thanks. It's also a time-consuming idea, unfortunately. I hope it pays off. Heck, I hope someone will play a game in this setting when it's "finished."
I think I'm going to start by making a list of types of places in the locale I'm detailing first. I know there are fjords, caves, forests, mountains, hills, etc. I figure I'll translate that mess first, try to pull some root morphemes from that and expand them into other words. Frex, [River] may contain a such a root, and [Stream], [Brook], and [Delta] might be based on it, but [Rill] might be a foreign word from a previous migration (where that damnable mother tongue comes in). I'll start with a real simple naming vocabulary until I work out some other languages.
Truth be told, you're probably better off devising the parent language first, and then evolving the daughter languages. Doing it the other way around requires you to essentially reconstruct the parent language using the comparative method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method), which is...problematic, if the history of Proto-Indo-European scholarship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_studies#History_of_Indo-European_studies) is any indication.
An easy way I've found to construct a (family of) naming language(s) is to settle on the phonology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology) (set of available sounds) and phonotactics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics) (patterns by which sounds are assembled to form words) of the parent language, then generate a set of roots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_%28linguistics%29). A compact list of roots can be extracted from Sona's (http://www.rickharrison.com/language/sonabook.html) table of radicals (http://www.rickharrison.com/language/sona8.html). Once you've compiled a set of roots in the parent language, you can derive new words and then mutate them according to various "sound laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_law)" to produce cognates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognate) in the daughter languages.
I didn't say I intended to develop the various languages independantly and then use the comparative method across them all. I'm looking at making the one local language and then using the opposite of those sound laws you mentioned to generate its parent language. Then use the parent language to make other languages in the region. I could later do this again to the parent language to get a protoparent language for the continent.
Quote from: Humabout
I didn't say I intended to develop the various languages independantly and then use the comparative method across them all. I'm looking at making the one local language and then using the opposite of those sound laws you mentioned to generate its parent language. Then use the parent language to make other languages in the region. I could later do this again to the parent language to get a protoparent language for the continent.
Ah, my bad. I misread what you had posted above. Are you familiar with the zompist boards (http://www.incatena.org/)? The owner wrote The Language Construction Kit (http://www.zompist.com/kit.html) and The Sound Change Applier (http://www.zompist.com/sounds.htm). Very useful for conlanging.
Oooh! Sweet! Thanks, man. I hadn't heard of those. And you did raise good points, for sure. I just figure since I'm making it all up anyway, I should be able to save some time (always a plus for a GM) by focusing on what's immediately useful for a game.
I'm on my way to those links right now!
[EDIT]
Holy cow! Awesome forum! Thank you so much!
Roots!
Here are some pre-wordified roots:
[spoiler]Large - ja
Small - łï
Land - ji
Body of Water - mïr
Flowing Water - kaž
Mountain - ŧaina
Cliff - duđ
Cave - mïjë
Coast - füvre
Tree - sežo
Marsh - šaivjo
Field - čig
Crossing - ruta
Boarder - źeśu
Storm - vetra
Thunder - zvüt
Snow - žda
Fog - vai
Ice - kelek
Water - źë
Falling - bähu
Strong - śü
Weak - ba
Not - ǩä
Home - đłïd
Deep - vüŋ
Shallow - ślütäl
Dangerous - druď
Safety/Protection - riǩ
Spring - gušë
People - šiđ
Structure - täz
Rulership - ralis
All/Entirety - ka
Purity - jau
Multitude - te
Hill - łïŧaina
Forest - jasežote
Wood - sežote
River - kaž
Stream - łïkaž
Fjord - vüŋkaž
Rapids - druđkaž
Waterfall - bähuźe
Island - źeŧaina
Bluff - źeduđ[/spoiler]
As I'm sure you can tell, I'm focusing on geographical stuff at first. I need to name stuff on a map! Anyway, I'll modify and tweak these a little, once I get some basic noun structure sorted out. Maybe even gender? Not sure yet. I'm definitely leaning toward aglutination eventually. Meh, anyway...enjoy my wordiness!
River and flowing water are the same... although you may have intended that.
I like how rapids are "Dangerous Rivers" :D
Your orthography gives a strong "Slavic" feel to your region. If that was intentional, then it has accomplished its goal-- but if your audience is English speakers, they may not have any idea how to pronounce your placenames. Really, it's often hard enough to do that with just the unadorned 26 letters of the alphabet.
Sparkletwist makes a good point there; to add another thing- one consequence of your selection of letters is that it's difficult to search for those words in a document unless you either have those keys on your keyboard or you know how to make them. Of course, players could copy/paste... But it's something to consider. One way around the search problem could be to add the marks after the letters.
I'd definitely recommend editing out the accents and spelling them with "h"s and diphthongs where appropriate. Makes it easier. I'm calling the high fey in my world sidhe, and still trying to convince myself if I should just come out and spell it Shee to avoid confusion or just chocking it up to "fey can't spell".
Quote from: sparkletwist
Your orthography gives a strong "Slavic" feel to your region. If that was intentional, then it has accomplished its goal-- but if your audience is English speakers, they may not have any idea how to pronounce your placenames. Really, it's often hard enough to do that with just the unadorned 26 letters of the alphabet.
I was going to say it looked vaguely Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language), but it definitely has a broadly Eastern European flavor to it.
Wow, I never posted a pronunciation key for my orthography! I'll do that in a minute. To respond to everyone, it is intended to have an Eastern European flare to it, even if I eventually bash out transliteration that's more friendly to English speakers. For now, I'm just using that one for my own purposes, since it's far more consice and less scary than a bunch of Hs everywhere, or god forbid, a more pinyin-style transliteraiton where familiar letters aren't pronounced in any sort of familiar way (x = sh? q = ch? what are they on?!)
With regard to "flowing water" being the same root as "river," that was intentional. Any words that have to do with "flowing water" will have that root, as opposed to the one for a body of water.
I like the compound word structure, btw.
Thanks. Eventually, I'll mash out some minor changes that occur when making a root into a word, such as adding a gender affix and occassionally shifting one consonant to a closely related one. That should make some of the compounding a little less obvious but make it all still feel related.
On another note, here's the pronunciation guide:
Vowels
i – feet
ï – fit
u – boot
ü – book
e – egg
ä - up
ë – bet
a - father
Consonants
b – ball
č – chase
d – dog
ď – judge
đ – the
f – ford
g – garrison
h – hop
j – yes
k – carrot
ǩ – no English equivalent; Bach
ł – bulk
l – land
m – marsh
n – nod
ň – onion
ŋ – sing
p – peat
r – rime
š – shape
s – snow
t – tether
ŧ – three
v – vermin
ž – vision
z – zoo
I wonder how transliterating that into a more English-looking script would apear. It'd definitely lose its Eastern European look, but would it end up just looking like gibberish?
And... Some more words!
[spoiler]
Ocean - raliźe
Sea - jaźe
Strait - rutamïr
Bay - riǩmïr
Lake - jimïr
Glacially-carved Lake - vüŋmïr
Pond - łïmïr
Island - źeji
Iceberg - źelektaina
Reef - druślütäl
Rime - vailek
Hail - bähułek
Thunderstorm - zvüdvet
Hailstorm - bähłegvet
Snowstorm - ždavet
Blizzard - jaždavet
"Perfect Storm" - jazvüdvet
Rain - bauźe
(Rain) Shower - łïbauźe
Glacier - leǩŧaina
Ford - razruta
Bridge - täzruta
[/spoiler]
As you can see, seafaring will be a major part of life, and it's really stormy with harsh winters. I need some more roots before I can dig into habitations. I'll probably do some flora and fauna, too, since that'll help with naming. Eventually need some state verbs, too, I guess. The list keeps getting longer...
Are you just picking words? Do you have a list of syllables, or some other tool so that the words sound "the same"?
Quote from: HumaboutI wonder how transliterating that into a more English-looking script would apear. It'd definitely lose its Eastern European look, but would it end up just looking like gibberish?
How about a Polish-influenced orthography:
ï > í
ü > ú
ä > á
ë > é
č > cz
ď > dz
đ > d'
ǩ > ch
ň > nj
ŋ > ng
š > sz
ŧ > t'
ž > rz
So
čëňüǩ (just a random word I made up) becomes
czénjúch;
kaďä (ditto) becomes
kadzá;
đižëš,
d'irzesz; etc.
And a spoken sample (https://rapidshare.com/files/3243963461/elyria_lang_sample.mp3)?
QuoteAre you just picking words? Do you have a list of syllables, or some other tool so that the words sound "the same"?
I've got a list of phonotactic constraints that reduce the syllable structure to (C)(j, R, L, L)V(C). Plug that through an excel spreadsheet to randomly generate syllables, and voila! All of the words in my last post are composites of the roots I posted initially, however. I've used the convention of shifting the voicedness of the final consonant of a syllable to match that of the first consonant of the following syllable, wherever that is an issue. Frex, the kv > gv in bäh-łek-vet > bäh-łeg-vet.
Also, I've been fricative-izing syllable-final stops followed by fricatives, or de-fricativing fricatives that follow stops, such as in leǩŧaina and źelektaina, respectively. I may eventually standardize this one way or the other, but natural languages always seem to have exceptions to any rule. A few inconsistencies just makes it feel more real.
QuoteHow about a Polish-influenced orthography:
It definitely looks more appealing and less czech (where I got most of those diacritics), but I don't know. I might mix it with some more russian looking stuff. I know I don't like using J for a Y sound.
I'm going to be the Devil's advocate here, so don't take this the wrong way, but there is one big problem with your language for Elyria - it uses Latin or Slavic/Cyrillic/Germanic/etc letters. I don't know an awful lot about Elyria, but I'm going to assume that the modern Western phonetic set was developed there.
I know you're trying to avoid just writing strange-sounding in words in English, which is in a way a good thing, but all the strange (to those of us that don't speak Polish or Cyrillic or one of the Slavic or Germanic or Scandinavian languages) letters just it make it really confusing.
If you're really serious about developing a con-lang for Elyria - which I applaud, as I was a linguistics minor in undergrad - go all the way and develop your own alphabet or set of characters, which you can then "translate" with more a simple, phonetic English.
Once again, I'm just being the Devil's advocate here. I really do applaud you though for having the balls to go for a con-lang, which is likely the most difficult thing someone can do when they are developing a setting. My hat is off to you sir.
Thank you for the applause and suggestion. I can totally understand what you're getting at. My reasoning for not doing just that immediately is mostly because this is initially intended to create names for places in the world. For that, I really only need a shorthand for the sound that I can easily type and read, and hopefully, transliterate into something that other English speakers can read. For flavor's sake, a unique orthography would add tons to be certain, and I'll put that on my to-do list. But for now, I need names for fjords, cliffs, caves, cities, straits, etc.
Of course, once I get all of that hashed out, along with enough syntax and grammar to cobble together place names, I'll tackle the orthography and make a really spiffy looking map, and eventually, other extra-spiffy handouts.
With regard to a simple phonetic English, that's sort of my goal, but some of the phonems don't have standard english representations. Even if I use Ch, Sh, and Th, there's nothing to represent the S in "vision," the TH in "then," or the N in "onion." And there's no good example of an unvoiced velar fricative or dark L in english; those would require their own symbols. I'd love some suggestions for them, however. My other stumbling block is where two syllables meet, such as wrods like athok, which looks like ath-ok, but might be at-hok. What opions are there to avoid such ambiguity? This was my reasoning in giving each phonem its own symbol, and just using diacritics to expand my symbol library. Of course, all of these reasons are just arguments for a unique orthography, as you've suggested....
I'm sure you know how many consonants are paired, voiced and unvoiced, like T and D. Thus, if th makes one sound, then dh would be the voiced sound. The s in "vision" could then be zh (it sounds like a voiced sh to me), "then" is "dhen", and the N in "onion" is more like ny (which is how I always hear the ñ in the spanish language). Japanese does things like Nya (using lower case to symbolize the subscript "ya" they do for this condensed sound).
But using "h"s like that would also require a pronunciation guideline.
Quote from: Humabout
Thank you for the applause and suggestion. I can totally understand what you're getting at. My reasoning for not doing just that immediately is mostly because this is initially intended to create names for places in the world. For that, I really only need a shorthand for the sound that I can easily type and read, and hopefully, transliterate into something that other English speakers can read. For flavor's sake, a unique orthography would add tons to be certain, and I'll put that on my to-do list. But for now, I need names for fjords, cliffs, caves, cities, straits, etc.
Of course, once I get all of that hashed out, along with enough syntax and grammar to cobble together place names, I'll tackle the orthography and make a really spiffy looking map, and eventually, other extra-spiffy handouts.
With regard to a simple phonetic English, that's sort of my goal, but some of the phonems don't have standard english representations. Even if I use Ch, Sh, and Th, there's nothing to represent the S in "vision," the TH in "then," or the N in "onion." And there's no good example of an unvoiced velar fricative or dark L in english; those would require their own symbols. I'd love some suggestions for them, however. My other stumbling block is where two syllables meet, such as wrods like athok, which looks like ath-ok, but might be at-hok. What opions are there to avoid such ambiguity? This was my reasoning in giving each phonem its own symbol, and just using diacritics to expand my symbol library. Of course, all of these reasons are just arguments for a unique orthography, as you've suggested....
Japanese romaji utilizes an apostrophe to resolve ambiguous syllables (or, more precisely, moras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_%28linguistics%29)). For example, the name
Jun'ichirō is parsed ju-n-i-chi-ro-u, and not ju-ni-chi-ro-u. So one might have ket'ha and ketha, mad'ha and madha, nis'ha and nisha, etc.
I have a personal thing against using apostrophes for anything other than contractions. It's probably my distaste for so many bad attempts at exotic-looking fantasy names, but I really, really don't want to go there. Really, all of this reinforces Senior LEetz' point that this conlang needs its own orthography, but for now, I'll just keep using the one I have for my own sake. When I get some time, I'll post more words and maybe some beginnings of a syntax.
I personally hate pointless apostrophes too, but, the problem for me is that they don't have a purpose. They're just arbitrarily inserted to make the name look more "exotic." If the apostrophe is being used to mark a syllable break, or show a glottal stop, or an epenthetic vowel, or something, then it's actually there for a reason, not just "to make the word look weirder." You can actually explain to someone why it's there and what it does.
I don't know if that makes you feel any better about them, though. :P
Ha! I get what you're saying, for sure, but I'm still uneasy jamming them into a slavic-looking/sounding language. It might prove necessary, or I might just say the heck with it and leave it like English - god only knows how you actually pronounce the words. For now, though, I'll just use my shorthand (it's short for me; I made keyboard hotkeys for all of those symbols in Word).
More words!
[spoiler]
Fire - huŋ
Hot/To Heat - dri
Home - fiǩ
Town/Settlement - źair
Path/Walk - daul
Mill - tauǩiŋ
Wind - đu
Rock - kair
Stone - łeśe
Gold - fët
Silver - čïrüž
Tin - jaiź
Copper - fauďün
Iron - ňivük
Farm - gumin
Market/Trading/Meet - taul
Bear - seź
Owl - sirü
Dear - süźdrä
Wolf - vloźla
Boar - kïžňä
Jay - čëś
Seal - maukan
Oak - haz
Aspen - faułta
Spruce - trëšä
Pine - rïmǩjëv
Mine - mïjëtäz
Water Mill - źëtauǩiŋ
Windmill - đutauǩiŋ
Orchard - sežgumin
Mill Town - tauǩ
Walled Town - riǩtäz
Castle - śüriǩ
[/spoiler]
Quote from: Humabout
Ha! I get what you're saying, for sure, but I'm still uneasy jamming them into a slavic-looking/sounding language. It might prove necessary, or I might just say the heck with it and leave it like English - god only knows how you actually pronounce the words. For now, though, I'll just use my shorthand (it's short for me; I made keyboard hotkeys for all of those symbols in Word).
More words!
[spoiler]
Fire - huŋ
Hot/To Heat - dri
Home - fiǩ
Town/Settlement - źair
Path/Walk - daul
Mill - tauǩiŋ
Wind - đu
Rock - kair
Stone - łeśe
Gold - fët
Silver - čïrüž
Tin - jaiź
Copper - fauďün
Iron - ňivük
Farm - gumin
Market/Trading/Meet - taul
Bear - seź
Owl - sirü
Dear - süźdrä
Wolf - vloźla
Boar - kïžňä
Jay - čëś
Seal - maukan
Oak - haz
Aspen - faułta
Spruce - trëšä
Pine - rïmǩjëv
Mine - mïjëtäz
Water Mill - źëtauǩiŋ
Windmill - đutauǩiŋ
Orchard - sežgumin
Mill Town - tauǩ
Walled Town - riǩtäz
Castle - śüriǩ
[/spoiler]
Are concatenated vowels like au and ai diphthongs, and if so, how are they pronounced?
AI and AU are the two diphthongs, actually, and they're pronounced "eye" and "Ow!" respectively.
Next on the to-do list are some common affixes and a bunch of adjectives and adverbs. I think that'll round out the initial lexicon and provide enough variation to name anything important on the map and give a wealth of names for people, as well. Then I can make a proper map, finally.
Changes in orthography! (I will likely keep the original orthography for my own purposes, which mostly involve tracking roots and affixes)
The previous roman transliteration remains unchanged except where noted below:
č > ch
ď > j
đ > dh
j > y
ǩ > kh
ł > ll
ň > ny
ŋ > ng*
š > sh
ś > ts
ŧ > th
ž > zh
ź > dz
*Ns preceding velar stops are pronounced as Ŋs. This is not written out.
Where one syllable ends with C, D, K, T, or Z and the following begins with an H so that it appears that there is no way to visually distinguish between "...T-H..." and "...TH...," it's up to the speaker to simply know which way it is pronounced.