The Campaign Builder's Guild

Using the format of Steerpike's primer of the CE - which in turn used LC's format - I'm going to try to just jot down a brief, but hopefully thorough, overview of a possible setting that evolved from discussion of how to make a Gygaxian D&D make sense. That said, this isn't really going to be a pure D&D-inspired setting. I should also point out that the name is not carved in stone by any means, but it sounded like it fit the tone as of now.

World Synopsis

A Possible "Future" of a D&D World - Without being too long-winded, Grindelrath, in a way, is a possible outcome for a world full of heroes, adventurers, magic, and monsters. The present day of Grindelrath would be akin to earth's 14th and 15th century. The monsters and villains of the world have been driven into the shadows, the power and danger of magic is feared, and adventurers are a dying breed.

An Almost-Forgotten Past - The Grindelrath peasant, down-trodden, weak and fearful, has most likely never seen a "monster". Aside from the flashy tricks of alley-wizards and the cheap portents of roaming gypsies, he has never witnessed real magic. He has most likely bought into the lies that cruel kings and the meddling clergy spread, believing that the beasts of the past only exist in the past, and that in the present taxes are due.

But he is wrong. The powers that be know what still lurks in the thick shadows of Grindelrath. They are often all too aware of the whispers of black and foul magic that drift through the night, of villages found empty, or worse, or merchant caravans never arriving on time, and of deep woods and misty fens that seem to swallow men.

Pariah Heroes - In the past, in the glorious days when farmers became fighters, wheelwrights became wizards, when the gold of a dragon's horde founded a kingdom and the clerics of the old gods fought gallantly against the forces of evil, heroes lived the life: there were wenches to woo, villains to vanquish, and lairs to loot.

Nothing made the kings and lords of history more nervous than vivacious do-gooders armed to teeth. But as long as beasts and creatures and dark wizards were a threat, the heroes were left to their own devices. However, the heroes did their jobs very well, too well perhaps, and with the dangers of the past becoming less and less, the kings and their vultures began to circle. Laws were passed requiring the adventurers to join guilds and pay dues. Their treasure was taxed and their items were regulated.

After only a few short centuries, adventurers nearly ceased to be. The ones who survived became pariahs, maligned by authority and feared by the masses, training in their remote guild-citadels until those that shunned them, bringing gold and asking for silence, need them.

Themes

Dark Fairy Tales - The monsters in Grindelrath are not the hordes of orcs that come pouring from their filthy pits or giants that lumber across the countryside, but those creatures and beasts intelligent enough to adapt, to flee to the shadows of the world and sow fear. The witch that lures children with sweets, only to cook them in a pot. The trickster goblin who gives the witless maiden the poison apple The jealous, bitter sorceress that curses the lovely virginal princess to sleep forever. The clever demon that promises riches and glories through his silvered tongue.

Outsiders - The adventurers are outsiders, remnants of a world that is forgotten. Mistrusted by the powers that be, but still needed, they exist in a proverbial limbo - half-loved and half-feared.

A Late Medieval/Early Renaissance Setting - Aside from gunpowder, Grindelrath has, in the absence of monstrous threat, developed to a point relatively equivalent with earth's 14th and 15th century, and all that comes with it: religious fervor, advancing technology, cultural awareness, ear-specific weapons, alchemy, scholasticism, politics, etc. This is not pastoral, bucolic D&D. Considering the Grimm Brothers are such an influence, the late Holy Roman Empire seems fitting.  

Genres and Influence

Dark, Gothic, and Horror Fantasy, The Grimm Brothers, film noir, the works of Andrzej Sapkowski and Lovecraft, folklore and mythology - particularly Central European, and anything else that tickles my fancy.

I must admit I didn't follow the discussion thread I believe this was born from very fervently, but from reading the above I get an instant idea of the tone and feel you are aiming for. This is essentially what the introduction is supposed to do, so you succeed with bravura!
Indeed, your writing is overall really good. I love this line: "He has most likely bought into the lies that cruel kings and the meddling clergy spread, believing that the beasts of the past only exist in the past, and that in the present taxes are due".

I enjoy this so far, and like what you have done to avoid the 'magic becomes tech' issues.   Curious about the place of magic in the world and if churches have clerics...or if they are all, somehow, in the guild...and how that makes sense.

I second Vreeg on that question. Was magic considered enough of a danger by politicians and kings for them to completely disavow it and its practitioners despite all the advantages it would offer them? Or is it just heavily regulated? Do arcane colleges of some sort operate in Grindelrath?

Yeah, I've been trying to figure out myself how Clerics fit into the game world, which I may end up going with "they don't." I'm leaning towards having a single religion, something basic like religion in ASoIaF - The Smith, the Crone, the Mother, etc. - that rules supreme, surpressing most of the old religions, which would be very akin to the classic D&D gods (pagans!), and be part of the military-industrial system, in cahoots with kings and politicians.

However, I also want the characters to be close to the only people in Grindelrath (which is really just a single, Transylvania-esque country) with Player Classes, as they are the only ones still trained as such, so maybe they could be Clerics of the old gods, being even more persecuted by the powers that be.

As for magic, it would be heavily regulated, with many laws passed against illegal magic use. The Dogmatic Church would be quick to condemn illegal magic-users as demons or witches, and the average peasant is terrified by it.

Would Guild personnel sometimes be put on retainer by the nobility? E.g. being the only baron with a seer on hand would be a very fortuitous situation.

No, the nobility are terrified of the guild members, and as such, they are kept as dirty little secrets. In addition to that, the guilds try not to get involved in politics at all, as past experience has taught them that it never leads to good things.*

* For instance, even though a band of adventurers can do many things that normal people cannot, even a battle-hardened party of heroes cannot resist 4,000 strong army of someone they crossed, laying siege with trebuchets.

So magic is universally restricted to guild members and a few hedge witches? Seems unlikely, honestly, unless the guilds operate a Locke Lamorean Bondsmage-like competition policy where anyone encroaching on their monopoly is swiftly dispatched?

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
So magic is universally restricted to guild members and a few hedge witches? Seems unlikely, honestly, unless the guilds operate a Locke Lamorean Bondsmage-like competition policy where anyone encroaching on their monopoly is swiftly dispatched?

You make a good point. Maybe wizard colleges exist outside of guilds, but are very cloistered and scholarly, more like librarians than fireball-throwers. Except those that thirst for more power would make good villains.

I like the name Grindelrath. It's evocative. Limetom could probably better explain why that is than me, but the sound of it really makes me think dark fantasy. Or perhaps that's me reading "Grendle Wrath," which sounds like Beowulf's nightmare.

QuoteThe monsters and villains of the world have been driven into the shadows, the power and danger of magic is feared, and adventurers are a dying breed.

:yumm:

Quote from: Señor Leetz

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
So magic is universally restricted to guild members and a few hedge witches? Seems unlikely, honestly, unless the guilds operate a Locke Lamorean Bondsmage-like competition policy where anyone encroaching on their monopoly is swiftly dispatched?

You make a good point. Maybe wizard colleges exist outside of guilds, but are very cloistered and scholarly, more like librarians than fireball-throwers. Except those that thirst for more power would make good villains.

I dunno, a Lies of Locke Lamora Bondsmage approach would be pretty cool - casters are given an ultimatum "Join or fight several experienced mages. To the death. Your call." And it feels kind of weird if there are random wizards that work for dukes and such that aren't viewed the same way adventurers are - A guy who can fight really well and goes out to kill the remaining monsters is lest trusted than the man with strange, hard to understand powers that has access to the ruler of an area?

Don't get me wrong, I can see the latter approach working, but it'd have to be handled carefully to maintain suspension of disbelief - but form what I've seen, I'm fully confident you could do that.

This sounds really awesome!  I love the idea of a more rennaissance setting.  Are you going to go the way of steampunk at all ro keep it more urban fantasy?

QuoteI dunno, a Lies of Locke Lamora Bondsmage approach would be pretty cool - casters are given an ultimatum "Join or fight several experienced mages. To the death. Your call."

Trudi Canavron's books had a similar approach to magic-those with magic needed to join an organization or else be sent out of the city to perhaps perish in the wild or be hobbled an unable to cast magic ever.

Hmm, dealing with magic seems to be a pressing issue. Here are my thoughts.

1. Not really worry about like D&D does.

2. Have the powers that be heavily regulate magic, like many people have suggested. Either you join the Magisters (or whatever they will be called) or you disappear. The hero-guilds who train wizards would have to be exempt somehow.

3. Have magic be EVIL!, which would probably mean that even players cannot be Wizards - but maybe the class could be tweaked so they could be Witchhunters, and would focus on the less evil and destructive spells, but even they would be extremely marginalized and suspect for dealing with demons and what-not.

Thanks for all the replies thus far!

EDIT: I'm imagining adventures as 75% hunting and searching for the monsters, and 25% confronting and fighting, with the players going through all manner of questionable and dark paths to find said monsters - shadowy thieves guilds, mad scholars, those who may dabble in the dark arts.

*Also, I'm pretty much at the point of dropping all pretenses of having this be a "D&D" campaign, as I like the idea and don't want to be cornered.

It almost sounds more like a monster hunter game set in a rennaissance fantasy world.  I love it, really.  You could draw on tropes from various action flicks (infiltrator, investigator, people person, etc.) or outright monster hunter flicks (inhuman helping the humans, fighters, priests/holy men, sages).  Somewhere in that mix, you should have a nice melieu of classes.

If magic is outright evil, then banning it from players would be understandable.  I should ask, though, it is inherently evil or just viewed as such?  Are we talking Warp Magic or just a good old-fashioned witch hunt?

Quote from: Humabout
It almost sounds more like a monster hunter game set in a rennaissance fantasy world.  I love it, really.

Why thank you sir. But hopefully I can work more than just monster-hunting into the work.

Quote from: Humabout
If magic is outright evil, then banning it from players would be understandable.  I should ask, though, it is inherently evil or just viewed as such?  Are we talking Warp Magic or just a good old-fashioned witch hunt?

A bit of both. I want magic to costly and mysterious and alien, but I also want the people of the setting to be irrational and superstitious and fearful of magic as well, very Inquisition-esque fear of the arcane.

Oh, I think those classes I mentioned could handle a great variety of genres, so long as their internal structure is versatile enough to accomodate a wide range of way sot fill those roles.  "Fighter" would have to cover anyone who fights and offer options for those different styles.  Infiltrator would have to cover any sort of infiltration; investigator is more narrow, I suppose.  Just some ideas.

In what way is magic costly, exactly?  Mysterious and alien is easily achieved, I think, through flavor and a morbid DM.  Depending on the cost and how morbid you are about its flavor, that would easily spawn irrational superstition galore.  And btw, Inquisitions rock!

Quote from: Humabout
In what way is magic costly, exactly?  Mysterious and alien is easily achieved, I think, through flavor and a morbid DM.  Depending on the cost and how morbid you are about its flavor, that would easily spawn irrational superstition galore.  And btw, Inquisitions rock!

Maybe meta-costs? Damaged abilities, hit point reductions, saves vs. insanity.

I'm thinking very dark and morbid, more so than I normally. And I want irrationality and fear to be big themes/tones as well.

Meta-costs?  Ewe!  But what do they represent?  Does magic make you insane?  Does it taint your soul?  Does it turn your mind toward depravity?  Does it cause maggots to infest your organs or make your flesh slough off?

The classic answer is that it erodes your soul.  It harkens back to the Tree of Forbidden Knowledge and trying to learn what God doesn't want you to know.  It's blasphemous, but moreso, it's hubris at its worst.  It's baptism in sin, reenacting the events of Eve and the snake, rather than John's washing of Jesus.

To drop the biblical stuff, I always liked how Legend of the Five Rings did it with Taint and Corruption coming from blood magic.  I, personally, use to enjoy removing other types of magic from the mix in dnd games and only using that yumminess.

I wouldn't think anyone, well at least most people, would begin delving into magic to become evil, that's just silly. They would, however, begint studying it because they think they can handle the price and the risk, despite evidence to the fact, as the average person think that they are above average and able to do things others can't. The Insanity and/or Corruption mechanics would probably work well.

I also think it would be fun to focus on all the really cool non-magical items of D&D (especially 3E) that seem to be forgotten as soon as the players start getting +1 loot and area of efffect spells - caltrops, grenade-like weapons, traps, etc. I'm pretty sure purely enchanted weapons are out. Also thinking that only silvered weapons can harm undead, as the necromantic magics that keep the corpse "together" would be strong enough to resist simple steel or wood - a ghoul sliced open by an iron blade would simply "knit" it's rotting sinew and muscle back together.

Haha, wasn't the original idea to make a D&D setting? ^^ Anyway, I perfectly understand your motivation -  building a setting around a pre-defined system can be a suffocating endeavour.

If you are building the entire magic system from scratch, try to do it organically: where does magic come from? How do you control it? If magic entails being possessed by supernatural devilry controlled by blood sigils people would probably act more adversely to it than if it was, say, just some strange source of energy a few ascetic people could tap into to a limited extent.   
Are you going with alignment? Otherwise the "magic is EVIL" approach falls a bit flat.

Hmm, instead of having magic be persecuted by the church (or whatever), maybe the church has a monopoly on the arcane. Only monks and priests know the Language of God. Of course, they'd still pursue those unanointed pagans who dare speak the holy language. Challenge the idea that divine and arcane magic are separate things.
 

I wouldn't expect people to delve into magic to become evil, either.  It's the power that attracts people, and it's their hubris that leads them to think they can handle the risks.  Always fun to watch that downward spiral.  Perhaps magic items are rare in the way that they are in LotR?  Even a +1 sword is the thing of Artifacts.

Now does using a magic item corrupt the user, the person who creates it, or both?

Or maybe there are no +1 swords at all. Magic items are strange and ineffable things clearly not of human design, yet those trained in their use can evoke the supernatural.
Essentially mages would be collectors and students of these arcane antiques - archaeologists of the unknown. There are no spells, no incantations. There are only the Objects.
This has been done (badly) in the abominable novel Nights of Villjamur. A better match would be the mini-series the Lost Room where there are a number of unique supernatural items hunted and kept by secret orders and common men, although I think control of the items should be a more academic pursuit.   

I was struck by a sudden need to write down the above, but now that I am done I realize that it's really quite a bad match with this sort of Grimmian fantasy. Can't bear to delete it again, though.

Hmm, spirit-mongering and faustian bargains would probably be the best fits, but I feel like something is missing if it were only those two.

I love how the comfortable meatloaf setting instead became a comfortable but much more unique and awesome setting - gourmet meatloaf, as it were. :P

I'll have some more comments in greater detail later on, just wanted to put out a "I love this setting so much" again. :P

Why does magic have to have any moral significance? Why can't it simply be dangerous in the way that plutonium is dangerous? Yes, it is difficult to fathom and confers miraculous powers to those who unravel its secrets, but it also emits strange energies that derange the mind and body, and this has absolutely nothing to do with how the substance is used.

Quote from: arkham618
Why does magic have to have any moral significance? Why can't it simply be dangerous in the way that plutonium is dangerous? Yes, it is difficult to fathom and confers miraculous powers to those who unravel its secrets, but it also emits strange energies that derange the mind and body, and this has absolutely nothing to do with how the substance is used.

Well, for this setting at least, I think it's key that the magic is at the very least inhuman and alien, power above and beyond our comprehension, which doesn't inherently mean it evil, just that it can't lead to good things, which makes the in-setting populace believe that it is Evil.

And like you mentioned, it you could do good things with magic - at first. But it's corrupting and devious, and it's only a matter of time before the weave of the mind starts unravelling. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

EDIT: I was also thinking the other night, "Why can't fighters use magic?" I know it's a balance thing, but balance has never really been that important to me (it's roleplaying, not war gaming) and was thinking along the lines of using the d20 Modern Basic Classes (With some fluff rewrites) along with basic magic (well, more like anti-magic) abilities that they can learn outside of class choices.

Plus, the Defensive and Reputation Bonuses would work perfectly considering a.) the lack of uber-enchanted armor/Renaissance-era gear and b.) the fact that I was going to use Repuatation anyway.

I don't think the fighters-can't-use-magic issue stems so much from balance as from a thematic decision. They wanted the fighter and the wizard to be fundamentally different. If a fighter can do everything a wizard can and vice versa there is little reason to talk of either as a separate entity.
On a fluffier note, magic is also often described as an academic pursuit. It would be like asking why the soldier can't do nuclear physics. Of course he can do both if he studies both, but so can the fighter/wizard multiclass character in your example.
That being said, it is of course possible to handle magic differently. Assuming you still want to operate within the D20 framework a good first step would be to remove all casters and make magic feat-based. Or limit it to class-neutral PrCs.

Also, just because you want magic to have a corrupting influence doesn't mean that it has to be evil. For one, if magic was capital-E Evil you would have to build the existence of such into your cosmology. Secondly, madness can take many shapes - it doesn't all have to be of the blood-drinking child-sacrificing variant.
Of course, with the Grimmian dark fantasy tone of the setting I can definitely see the virtues of having corrupting or even evil magic. This would just take magic out of the hands of the players, which could be either good or bad.

My big question: How much of this is still D&D-based? Are you doing away with wizards, classes, alighments, dragons and goblins? Having a quasi-clear answer to this question would make it immensely easier to comment since right now I am working from assumptions that might or might not no longer be valid! :) 

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
My big question: How much of this is still D&D-based? Are you doing away with wizards, classes, alighments, dragons and goblins? Having a quasi-clear answer to this question would make it immensely easier to comment since right now I am working from assumptions that might or might not no longer be valid! :)  

Not much. This has ended up evolving into an entirely different beast. A d20 ruleset will be at the base of any crunch, but yeah, for the most part, I'm just going to go for it an end all the D&D restrictions and constraints.

Anyhow, geographically thinking, I'm looking towards focusing on a single kingdom or land divided between several kingdoms, with a northern/eastern European feel - Germanic forests, brooding Transylvanian mountains, cold fens - with lots of rain, lots of snow, lots of clouds. I think I may make it landlocked, which would prevent lots of foreign influence and makes for an isolated, somewhat xenophobic populace.

This is sounding more and more awesome.  Will the local government still be fuedal in nature or will it be in the process of evolving into the nation-state?  IF it's landlocked, what are the neighboring countries like?  Do they attempt to control this population or is the population seen as too backwater to care about?  What sort of influences do creep in?  How do the locals view their neighbors?

Quote from: Humabout
This is sounding more and more awesome.

Why thank you sir

Quote from: HumaboutWill the local government still be fuedal in nature or will it be in the process of evolving into the nation-state?  IF it's landlocked, what are the neighboring countries like?  Do they attempt to control this population or is the population seen as too backwater to care about?  What sort of influences do creep in?  How do the locals view their neighbors?

As for the government, it will be fuedal in that there is a king and lords that support him, but it will be much more modern in the sense that lords and barons and officials have much more power than in classical Medieval fuedalism. Lot's of violent politics exist between the nobility, but there is still a start difference between the common rable and the distant nobles.

As for bordering nations, I'm going to put some heavy physical bounderies like mountains and fens around Grindelrath, but for the most part, I'm not going to put too much thought and work into what exists outside. In keeping with the Brothers Grimm tone, I want to have the land be "quaint" in a sense, and avoid big politics and large-scale wars, which I think takes away from the dark fairy tale feel. There will of course be rumors and what not, but they will be short, tantalizing snippets. The people of Grindelrath are as misinformed about the oustide world as the common peasant in the 14th century.

So Grindlerath probably won't have anything of interest to outside powers?  It's probably poor by outside standards?  It's socially retarded by outside standards?  It's just the sticks and no one wants to go there anymore than New Yorkers want to go to the boondocks of Arkansas?

It may or may not, but I'm just not really going to focus on it. I think it may even add to the dreary, fearful tone if the outside world is little known or understood. And Grindelrath wouldn't be the only land with this attitude, it's neighboors may be just as poor and xenophobic as it is, leading to an isolated, fearful world.

QuoteAnyhow, geographically thinking, I'm looking towards focusing on a single kingdom or land divided between several kingdoms, with a northern/eastern European feel - Germanic forests, brooding Transylvanian mountains, cold fens - with lots of rain, lots of snow, lots of clouds. I think I may make it landlocked, which would prevent lots of foreign influence and makes for an isolated, somewhat xenophobic populace.

I love the NE European field, but would definitely go with multiple kingdoms, to give Harbringers (you still using that name or did I miss the change) the option of being hired to deal with military matters - plus, multiple kingdoms in conflict is the biggest drive to technological advancement, and helps explain the eradication of many monsters if these kingdoms viewed them as a military threat or just decided that 'Meh, we have an army in the area and there's a small orc tribe, might as well eradicate them while we're at it."

Well yeah, within the land of Grindelrath, there will most likely be a handful of small kingdoms, but all exist within the same social and cultural sphere.

EDIT: Something like Skyrim would be an example, with all the mini-kingdoms within the greater land.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
Well yeah, within the land of Grindelrath, there will most likely be a handful of small kingdoms, but all exist within the same social and cultural sphere.

EDIT: Something like Skyrim would be an example, with all the mini-kingdoms within the greater land.

That's a great way to handle it - especially if, in their past, they were separate enough where those wars could happen, contributing to classic monster extinction. Or has that changed - has the world always had this level of supernatural, or is the age when monsters were common and now rare still the way it works (I'll admit I've not been following as closely as I should.)?

Normally I spend my time poking around these types of forums without ever really getting involved, but the description of your setting was enough to get me to read the entire thread, and then to join CBC.

The setting oozes dark fantasy, and the ASoIaF is apparent but not overwhelming. What really interests me here is that the 'characters" are now outcasts, and the ongoing discussion about why magic is being considered dangerous keeps bringing me back to one question: HOW are the leaders of present-day Grindelrath keeping magic-users in check? It's all fin and good to tell a powerful wizard "Stay in your tower- or else!" but there has to be a definite, serious threat to back up the "or else" with. And I'm just talking about the former heroes here. Obviously an evil wizard popping up here and there would be the sort of reason to call the characters from their remote guild training areas, but what about the good-aligned mage who resents being oppressed by the nobility's lies?

As far as magic goes, perhaps a catastrophic (and rapidly becoming cliche if Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms are any indicator) event that rips the weave of magic from the fabric of the world? Or that the source of magics power has become so weak that even the most powerful of wizards can barely cause a candle to flicker? Of course these paths require removal of magic from the world completely, which seems to be the opposite of what you aim to do.

There is always the Inheritance Cycle to consider; in which Galbatorix decided to police all magic users and forbid the use of any unauthorized magic through use of even more powerful magic. Perhaps this sort of "he who has the most power makes the rules" scenario would fit your setting?

Forgive me for rambling on through text; your setting is awesome and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see what you do with the issue of magic.

Quote from: Stryker25B
Normally I spend my time poking around these types of forums without ever really getting involved, but the description of your setting was enough to get me to read the entire thread, and then to join CBC.

Why thank you sir.

Quote from: Stryker25B
HOW are the leaders of present-day Grindelrath keeping magic-users in check? It's all fin and good to tell a powerful wizard "Stay in your tower- or else!" but there has to be a definite, serious threat to back up the "or else" with. And I'm just talking about the former heroes here. Obviously an evil wizard popping up here and there would be the sort of reason to call the characters from their remote guild training areas, but what about the good-aligned mage who resents being oppressed by the nobility's lies?

I'm leaning towards have the magic-users of the setting all being a part of a single college or brotherhood, that, in addition to their own dark goals, search for any potential magic users, and give them the ultimatum: Join us or die.

As for the potential good wizard, the wizards college (or whatever) will have a near monopoly on arcane knowledge. Without books and study, you simply cannot harness magic, so farmer Jim cannot say, "I want to be an adventurer and a wizard!" and do it.

As for the characters, they may be exempt from the wizard college's purge/recruitment, but they will practice their own form of magic, namely anti-magic magic.

BUT, that is just a thought. This setting has really only gelled in the last week or so as an evolution from another setting, so I'm up for anything thoughts or suggestions. I know what tone I want, but besides that, I'm still shooting from the hip.

Quote from: Stryker25B
Perhaps this sort of "he who has the most power makes the rules" scenario would fit your setting?

Yes!

[ic=The Sombraphage - The Shade-Eaters]In the realm of Grindelrath, none maintain such a shroud of mystery and an aura of fear like the Sombraphage - the Shade-Eaters. While their history has been carefully cultivated by their own ranks, they were most likely, at one time, one of the many arcane societies founded centuries ago during the golden age of adventurers and explorers. But over the years, they slowly absorbed other such societies, their methods and means becoming darker and more foul, with those societies that did not join with them mysteriously vanishing. Over time, the Shade-Eaters - the exact origins of the name are unknown - became the sole arcane society in Grindelrath.

By carefully balancing their influence, they have become at the same time seemlessly intergrated into the political system of Grindelrath while at the same time being above and beyond the petty vendettas of spoiled princes and decadent lords. They are both feared and sought after as advisors and court-mages. They are above the reproach of the law, their black-stone towers soaked with rumors of vile experiments, pacts with demons, and machine-tortured souls. While their numbers are few, many surmise that the Sombraphage is the true power behind many of the warring kings and lords of Grindelrath.   

Yet they are not fools, inspite of their foulness. They know how far they can push before the nobility and commoners begin to push back. They are especially wary of the Harbingers, the very last of the adventurers guilds from so long ago, who always seem so close to stumbling upon the blackest secrets of the Shade-Eaters.[/ic]

This is all still very W.I.P., but I just thought I'd start putting stuff out.

Quote from: Señor Leetz

Quote from: Stryker25B
Normally I spend my time poking around these types of forums without ever really getting involved, but the description of your setting was enough to get me to read the entire thread, and then to join CBC.

Why thank you sir.

Quote from: Stryker25B
HOW are the leaders of present-day Grindelrath keeping magic-users in check? It's all fin and good to tell a powerful wizard "Stay in your tower- or else!" but there has to be a definite, serious threat to back up the "or else" with. And I'm just talking about the former heroes here. Obviously an evil wizard popping up here and there would be the sort of reason to call the characters from their remote guild training areas, but what about the good-aligned mage who resents being oppressed by the nobility's lies?

I'm leaning towards have the magic-users of the setting all being a part of a single college or brotherhood, that, in addition to their own dark goals, search for any potential magic users, and give them the ultimatum: Join us or die.

As for the potential good wizard, the wizards college (or whatever) will have a near monopoly on arcane knowledge. Without books and study, you simply cannot harness magic, so farmer Jim cannot say, "I want to be an adventurer and a wizard!" and do it.

As for the characters, they may be exempt from the wizard college's purge/recruitment, but they will practice their own form of magic, namely anti-magic magic.

BUT, that is just a thought. This setting has really only gelled in the last week or so as an evolution from another setting, so I'm up for anything thoughts or suggestions. I know what tone I want, but besides that, I'm still shooting from the hip.

Quote from: Stryker25B
Perhaps this sort of "he who has the most power makes the rules" scenario would fit your setting?

Yes!

Well, you could go the Dragon Age route and have a Circle of Magi that enjoys a Church-granted monopoly on the practice of magic, enforced by fanatical Templars with anti-magic capabilities. Alternatively, you could have magical ability stem from a pact with a supernatural entity, and argue that, as spirits and monsters are driven ever deeper into the wilderness, it becomes increasingly difficult to contact such creatures and gain their cooperation, resulting in a steady decline in magical activity. Witches and wizards thus live deep in the woods, because that is where their familiars feel most safe, and they are all suspected of diabolism, because devils are the only entities that actively seek out mortals to form pacts with them.

I'm thinking of taking the route where the players will have no access to magic, as it is inherently evil, and only obtainable by pacts with darker, more dangerous "things". However, magic along the lines of prestiginations and cantrips may exist, but would be the height of non-pact magic. Also, alchemy would, in a way, take the place of many things that magic normally does in a setting (in crunch terms, buffing and healing in particular.) Magic can also be accessed through artifacts, but this is rare also.

So in effect, magic is evil in Grindelrath, much like it is in many fairy tales, and the players become witch- and warlock-hunters in addition to being monster-hunters. Because of this, I'm leaning towards the d20 Modern classes (Strong, Tough, etc.) more than the classic D&D classes, considering the absence of magic. (Plus, I like d20 Modern because it only really goes to level 10, with the Basic Classes at least. I think it's a good middle ground between E6 and the full 20 levels.)

And despite magic being evil, it doesn't mean that haughty nobels, merchant princes, or power-hungry clergy don't dabble in it, as everyone seems to think they can control it, and not the other way around.

EDIT: And considering it's a more Renaissance than Medieval setting, I want lots of books, codices, manuscripts, and missives on monsters, magic, and other cool things, like the Codex Nocturne for spectral undead, the Codex Corpus for corporeal undead, the Encyclopedia Hexe for witchcraft, the Hyssian Index for poisons or the Caduceus Missive for beneficial herbs and remedies.

Quote from: Señor Leetz


So in effect, magic is evil in Grindelrath, much like it is in many fairy tales, and the players become witch- and warlock-hunters in addition to being monster-hunters. Because of this, I'm leaning towards the d20 Modern classes (Strong, Tough, etc.) more than the classic D&D classes, considering the absence of magic. (Plus, I like d20 Modern because it only really goes to level 10, with the Basic Classes at least. I think it's a good middle ground between E6 and the full 20 levels.)

There's a lot to comment on here and I promise I'll get to it, but since I'm on iPad I gotta keep this short or kill my hands. Just wanted to make an offer that I'd be happy to work with you on classes for Grindelrath using X20, which might suit your tastes - and making non magic or pactbound classes would be a blast and aid me too. :P

Quote from: Xathan On The Town

Quote from: Señor Leetz


So in effect, magic is evil in Grindelrath, much like it is in many fairy tales, and the players become witch- and warlock-hunters in addition to being monster-hunters. Because of this, I'm leaning towards the d20 Modern classes (Strong, Tough, etc.) more than the classic D&D classes, considering the absence of magic. (Plus, I like d20 Modern because it only really goes to level 10, with the Basic Classes at least. I think it's a good middle ground between E6 and the full 20 levels.)

There's a lot to comment on here and I promise I'll get to it, but since I'm on iPad I gotta keep this short or kill my hands. Just wanted to make an offer that I'd be happy to work with you on classes for Grindelrath using X20, which might suit your tastes - and making non magic or pactbound classes would be a blast and aid me too. :P

Just a quick idea here (as I've had way too much wine to carry on a solid argument) is to reward the PC's with extra skill ranks and feats instead of magic weapons.

Quote from: Señor Leetz

Quote from: Xathan On The Town

Quote from: Señor Leetz


So in effect, magic is evil in Grindelrath, much like it is in many fairy tales, and the players become witch- and warlock-hunters in addition to being monster-hunters. Because of this, I'm leaning towards the d20 Modern classes (Strong, Tough, etc.) more than the classic D&D classes, considering the absence of magic. (Plus, I like d20 Modern because it only really goes to level 10, with the Basic Classes at least. I think it's a good middle ground between E6 and the full 20 levels.)

There's a lot to comment on here and I promise I'll get to it, but since I'm on iPad I gotta keep this short or kill my hands. Just wanted to make an offer that I'd be happy to work with you on classes for Grindelrath using X20, which might suit your tastes - and making non magic or pactbound classes would be a blast and aid me too. :P

Just a quick idea here (as I've had way too much wine to carry on a solid argument) is to reward the PC's with extra skill ranks and feats instead of magic weapons.

That's something that could be worked in very easily. When you're sober again, we should talk nitty gritty - I am building X20 with a much lighter focus on magic items (though the "core" system is not designed to be low magic, I'm going to make such a thing easily possible).

And that, regardless of system, fits the tone of your game very well. Magic should be a rare thing if it's good, or magic items should always have a downside (I'd lean towards the later) but be extremely powerful - so you have to chose power with a price or becomeing more skilled and not taking that tempting shortcut to power.

Of course, you could always go a route where for some reason magic as it was known in the time of heroes and adventurers is gone forever, in that nobody could weave it anymore. In this scenario, previously created magical items could still function so there still exists the reward for PCs, and with such things become more and more scarce they would be precious treasures indeed. Another idea which I believe you brought up in a previous post would be to put some kind of serious drawback to the use of magic, akin to the taint of the source in the Wheel of Time series only with much more dire consequences.

Hmm, going with artifact-based magic could be really cool, as far as humans using magic goes. I still think that the "monsters" of the setting would have to have their own magic (this could easily explain mankinds distrust and fear of magic, as it's something that 'they' have that we don't). It may be cool to go both ways, having artifact magic and pact magic (although it would most likely not make sense that the PCs would use the pact magic, as the whole idea of the PCs as monster/witch/mage-hunters goes against that.)

For the artifact magic, I just need to figure out where these items came from - extinct elves or dwarves? (much like the Dwemer in the Elder Scrolls) Times when mankind could still use magic? Forged with the assistance of darker beings?

As for pact magic, I'm thinking deals with witches or hags or goblins - I don't think I'm going to have demons be "real" in the setting, but more an idea perpatrated by the Church.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
For the artifact magic, I just need to figure out where these items came from - extinct elves or dwarves? (much like the Dwemer in the Elder Scrolls) Times when mankind could still use magic? Forged with the assistance of darker beings?

If I'm following the setting correctly, Grindelrath has already gone through an age of heroes where adventuring wizards roamed the world much like in most Fantasy settings, so it seems only natural that the artifacts of today were the commonplace magical items of ages past. No one race need have created it all; these artifacts are merely pieces of history that still exist and function in the world. Given the public's view of magic these items would be considered dangerous so it would make sense that PCs be hired to retrieve/destroy them.

Quote from: Stryker25B

Quote from: Señor Leetz
For the artifact magic, I just need to figure out where these items came from - extinct elves or dwarves? (much like the Dwemer in the Elder Scrolls) Times when mankind could still use magic? Forged with the assistance of darker beings?

If I'm following the setting correctly, Grindelrath has already gone through an age of heroes where adventuring wizards roamed the world much like in most Fantasy settings, so it seems only natural that the artifacts of today were the commonplace magical items of ages past. No one race need have created it all; these artifacts are merely pieces of history that still exist and function in the world. Given the public's view of magic these items would be considered dangerous so it would make sense that PCs be hired to retrieve/destroy them.

Good point.

Now, the next thing on my mind is how to deal with the monstesrs. I"m leaning towards the Northern/Central European staples like goblins, trolls, witches, fairies, some undead (wights, ghouls, and ghosts) and maybe dwarves and elves, taking them back to their mythological roots. Each monster will be mostly unique, although the more "race-like" monsters - dwarves, elves, goblins - may exist in small bands or tribes, but trolls or witches or undead will be mostly solitary but extremely dangerous.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
Good point.

Now, the next thing on my mind is how to deal with the monstesrs. I"m leaning towards the Northern/Central European staples like goblins, trolls, witches, fairies, some undead (wights, ghouls, and ghosts) and maybe dwarves and elves, taking them back to their mythological roots. Each monster will be mostly unique, although the more "race-like" monsters - dwarves, elves, goblins - may exist in small bands or tribes, but trolls or witches or undead will be mostly solitary but extremely dangerous.

I guess the only real questions you need to answer here are where have the more dangerous of the monsters gone and how many of them have survived. They can't be very numerous or roaming the entire countryside, else the heroes would not be restricted to their remote guild areas. The more run-of-the mill creatures have likely become manageable by the common folk, else there would be more adventurers around or a very large military presence to deal with things. Are the more powerful creatures of the world simply manipulating politics from behind the scenes? Have they fled to another realm altogether or have they just come close to extinction?

Quote from: Señor Leetz

Now, the next thing on my mind is how to deal with the monstesrs. I"m leaning towards the Northern/Central European staples like goblins, trolls, witches, fairies, some undead (wights, ghouls, and ghosts) and maybe dwarves and elves, taking them back to their mythological roots. Each monster will be mostly unique, although the more "race-like" monsters - dwarves, elves, goblins - may exist in small bands or tribes, but trolls or witches or undead will be mostly solitary but extremely dangerous.

I love this idea, especially taking some of those monsters back to their mythological roots (though I would also branch back to greco-roman mythology, since some pretty iconic monsters that wouldn't be out of place here come from that). However, something to carefully consider: many of these creatures, in their mythological roots, were kind of...dull or lame, at least as threats for adventurers. It depends on which version you're talking about, of course, but in some versions elves were nothing but crafters, goblins were little more than mischief-makers, Faeries basically were the medieval Ashton Kutcher "Punking" people, trolls were only a threat if you regularly cross bridges, witches lived in houses made of candy, etc. The goal, I think, should be to find a medium between the actual lore and the modern danger. Part of this will in large part depend on which interpretation of the mythological creatures we're going with - are you talking central European elves, Norse elves, or Western European elves? Some combination thereof?

One example that I felt did a great job blending myth and danger and cool was the Harry Dresden series - if you haven't read it, I would.

The idea of the more dangerous creatures (witches, undead, etc) largely working alone while the weaker ones existing in tribes fits perfectly in my opinion - I'd go with it, and I also agree that keeping Demons (and Angels) out of the picture as actual beings and instead myths perpetuated by the church to keep people under control works very well.

Also, I think Stryker has an excellent point about the more powerful creatures - dragons, giants, and sea-creatures - are all staples of myths at this time, but might ruin the feeling you're going for, so I'd carefully consider what I'd do with them. (Personally, I'd have them as extremely rare and near extinction but very long lived so a single one won't go away anytime soon, if ever - but they are hiding as much as possible and working as subtly as possible to avoid drawing attention but holding a deep hatred for those humans that drove them to their current state)

Quote from: Xathan
I love this idea, especially taking some of those monsters back to their mythological roots (though I would also branch back to greco-roman mythology, since some pretty iconic monsters that wouldn't be out of place here come from that). However, something to carefully consider: many of these creatures, in their mythological roots, were kind of...dull or lame, at least as threats for adventurers. It depends on which version you're talking about, of course, but in some versions elves were nothing but crafters, goblins were little more than mischief-makers, Faeries basically were the medieval Ashton Kutcher "Punking" people, trolls were only a threat if you regularly cross bridges, witches lived in houses made of candy, etc. The goal, I think, should be to find a medium between the actual lore and the modern danger. Part of this will in large part depend on which interpretation of the mythological creatures we're going with - are you talking central European elves, Norse elves, or Western European elves? Some combination thereof?

I'm definitely going to take liberties, but I just want to avoid using the D&D stereotypes of each monster, especially the stereotypes that have been taken so far beyond their original ideas, like the dwarves and elves especially. More myth, less Tolkien.   

Quote from: Xathan
Also, I think Stryker has an excellent point about the more powerful creatures - dragons, giants, and sea-creatures - are all staples of myths at this time, but might ruin the feeling you're going for, so I'd carefully consider what I'd do with them. (Personally, I'd have them as extremely rare and near extinction but very long lived so a single one won't go away anytime soon, if ever - but they are hiding as much as possible and working as subtly as possible to avoid drawing attention but holding a deep hatred for those humans that drove them to their current state)

Well the Big Ones could be hiding, could have been hunted to extinction, or never existed at all. A fantasy setting doesn't have to have dragons. I think monsters that are too big and overt will ruin the tone.

I was walking my dogs in the woods today, and just thought about the players having to hunt down a single troll (or what have you) that's snatching children from a remote marsh village. They'd have to prepare to hunt trolls somehow, get to the village, learn what they can from the villagers, then delve into the marsh, hunting the troll as it hunts them, and to characters of that relative level, a troll means serious business - one unlucky roll and a character is dead.

A quick thought on weapons: considering this is a late Medieval/Renaissance setting, it seems most likely that the characters will only train in a handful of weapons, specifically swords. While it would be silly to limit the characters to only swords - as axes, hammers, and maces would also make sense - I think the players should be "limited" to a small pool of weapon types to be good at. While the armies and guards of Grindelrath are armed with pikes and halberds, I can't see our monster-hunters using them.

That being said, and being combined with the likely use of E6 or E8, I think it would be fun for the players to start with weapons they will not want to part with - ancient blades or axes with histories and names that they have trained with since childhood.

While they wouldn't be magical, they could come with bonuses anyways.

Ex. Marrowbane, an ancient silvered long-sword, would give basically a +2 bonus to Gaston, but only to Gaston, because he is so familiar with the blade.

EDIT: And a quick thought on armor. I also can't see the players stalking a ghoul in the catacombs of the city of Ghendt in full plate. While I know that armor of incredible quality did exist around this time, I don't think it fits with the PCs. Soldiers - sure, guards- sure, but not the players. Leather, chainshirt max. I'm sure there is a defensive bonus rule out there somewhere...

Don't rule out pikes and halberds; there may be some things that even the toughest warrior may only want to fight with a blade at the end of a 10-foot pole.

Quote from: Stryker25B
Don't rule out pikes and halberds; there may be some things that even the toughest warrior may only want to fight with a blade at the end of a 10-foot pole.

That may be true, but historically, pikes were only useful when they were used en-masse in a block. A single pikeman would be fairly easy to take down once you got around the single point, not to mention it would be difficult using a 3 - 7 meter long weapon in the tight areas adventurers often find themselves in - crypts, caves, dungeons, etc.

And in effect, I suppose that explains why adventurers are still around to hunt monsters, as they can go places that armies cannot. A party of 5 adventurers would most likely get wrecked by a pike block and crossbow army, but that same army would likely get eaten one by one if they marched, heavy footed and frightened, into a bog to hunt down a pair of trolls.

However, you're right about getting some distance. Maybe shorter pole-arms, like a bardiche, spear, or pollaxe, could be used. But I think swordsmenship should be key to players, as it represents the pinnacle of martial and culture sophistication, and seperates them from the pike-wielding, dagger-waving, club-shaking masses.

[spoiler=Note]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fencing , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing[/spoiler]

Writs

In so many words, writs are requests for the adventurers guild to hunt down a monster. In Grindelrath, adventurers do not, and cannot due to law, meander through the country side, armed and armored with all manner of weaponry, slaying and killing all that stand in their way. Writs are also a license for the adventurers (Harbingers) to carry weapons and the occasional magic item through Grindelrath. There are several types of writs, each with a set price and goal, usually bound by tradition. Payment is always collected after the monster is slain, but must be seen before the hunt begins. If the Harbingers fail - which is exceedingly rare - they refuse payment. It is punishable by death to refuse payment to the guild. But few, if any, are reckless enough to refuse them their fee.

Red Writs - The most basic and cheapest of writs, Red Writs are called such as they are sealed by red wax. Red Writs consist of a simple hunt, the location of the monster is known. The nature and usually quantity of the monster(s) are known as well. Discretion is not required from the Harbingers. Red Writs are usually requested when a village already knows the nature of the threat and they just want it gone. Red Writs cost two-hundred silver coins, one ingot of gold, seven red bird feathers, and a white wolves pelt.

Violet Writs - A Purple Writ, called so because it's sealed by purple wax, is basically a Red Writ with discretion preferred. This is usually requested by a town elder or duke who wants the problem kept under wraps and hidden from the populace at large. A Violet Writ costs fifty-nine knives made of copper, two ingots of silver, twelve pounds of salt, a lock of blond hair, and a single dried violet flower.

Gilded Writs - A Gilded Writ, called so as the wax seal - usually of basic, colorless wax-  is dusted with gold leaf immediately after it has been poured, is similar to a Red Writ, but the location of the monster is not known. If discretion is required, a small black feather is inserted into the hot wax along with the gold, if discretion is not required, no feather is used. A Gilded Writ costs two ingots of gold, eleven ingots of high-quality steel, fourteen crowns of woven grass, and a puppy or foal of good breeding.

White Writs - A White Writ, sealed with clean white wax, is requested when an area is known to harbor some form of monster or evil, but beyond that, nothing is known. Whit Writs often involve clearing out old ruins, catacombs, or caves. If discretion is required, the writ is wrapped in black cloth, if not, it is left as is. The price of a White Writ is four ingots of silver, six recently killed bucks, fifteen white candles, two rare books, scrolls, or tomes - the guild decides whether the books are sufficiently valuable - and a year of sworn service by a towns person of the guilds choosing.

Black Writs - A Black Writ, the most expensive and vague of writs, is requested when investigation is needed. The nature and number of the monsters are unknown, as is where they reside. If discretion is required, a fox tail is attached to the writ, if discretion is not required, a bell is tied to the writ. The price of a Black Writ is high: five ingots each of copper, silver, and gold, the cured and treated hides of two bulls, and a drop of blood, from the requester, staining a small white cloth. In addition, the requester of the Black Writ must swear to do a single favor for the guild in the future - no matter the circumstances nor request. Failure to complete the favor results not only in the death of whoever refused, but a black-listing of the area. Never again will the guild help said realm.

The Rule of Woe - Sometimes the price of a writ cannot be afforded, especially by small, poor, or remote villages and lands. In this case, the Rule of Woe may be invoked. The Rule of Woe changes the price of any Writ to a healthy orphan, no older than twelve, no younger than five, who's parents were slain by the monster or monsters the Harbingers are hired to slay. Sickly and weak orphans are not accepted. Orphans who's parents died by other means are not accepted either. The guild accepts both boys and girls. The orphans are then trained either as future Harbingers if they show the aptitude, or work as stewards, squires, smiths, or scholars within the guilds keep if they.

The Rule of Woe, because of the human price, is rare and only used in the most dire circumstances. Also, within the Rule of Woe is a clause that gives the Harbingers the right to execute any who knowingly lie, falsify, or cause the deaths of the parents in order to create an orphan to pay the price.

I like the writs, though I think the whole thing about adventurers not being legally allowed to meander through the countryside armed and armored would cramp a lot of groups' style. They're quite colorful, though! Would PCs expect to collect these? (And what would they do with orphans?)

I should also point out that in certain times and places, human life isn't given nearly the value as it is to many modern societies. The Black Writ and the Rule of Woe seems like they could be abused. Orphans are cheap, why part with any gold or anything expensive?  A corrupt nobleman who wants the problem solved could just wait for the monster or whatever to ravage some poor village that would have to invoke the Rule of Woe, rather than pay up for a red, purple, or whatever writ.

Hmm, you have a good point about the value of life, and all I can do is argue that Grindelrath is slightly more "modern" than most settings, but I think I'm just going to have to with hand-wavium.

As for the law against walking around with weapons, I think it only makes sense (even if it does cramp style) that the powers that be don't want these guys walking around messing up things. But that doesn't mean PCs can't walk around armed, they just have to be subtle about it and be prepared to take the severe consequences.

As for the Rule of Woe, I think that the guild would know when the requester cannot pay the price and when he can. Plus, I'm going to say that only the most arrogant, ignorant, and border-line mad ruler would intentionally mess with the guild. While they keep themselves out of most outside business, they will move if they are threatened or, more importantly, their honor is insulted. Perhaps, in the charter that defines what the guild does, is an article that gives them powers of retribution if they are taken advantage of to keep such a thing from happening. Actually! That would be a good reason for the PCs to fight other humans instead of monsters: attacking a baron's fortress in order to dispense justice after he cheated them.

Doesn't this bring us full circle back to the question of if the guild is powerful enough to overtake anyone who cheats them, how do the powers that be keep them in check in the first place?

I would say that the powers as a whole can keep them in check, but for the most part, it's in the powers best interest to keep the guild, as they can do things normal humans, regardless of numbers, can. But if one rogue ruler starts playing with the guild for his own gain, I don't think the other lords and dukes and princes will look too kindly on that, and look the other way when an obvious transgression has occurred.

The guild who definitely be able to covertly kill a single ruler no problem, but wouldn't stand a chance against the full might of Grindelrath if the guild wished to really flex their muscles and upset the balance.

EDIT: Plus, people are generally afraid of the guild, despite what they do. Maybe I should write a quick summary of the Pact that established the guild and the laws that govern both them and the nobility.

Or perhaps once they have been cheated, they are done with that realm for seventy-seven years. And after a few duchies were left to fall under the ravages of werewolves or trolls, most rulers toe the line now, more concerned of the consequences than they are about the price.

Love the Writs as written. Especially the fees. You seem to be unable to decide whether it should be the Violet or the Purple Writ though. I'd go for purple, personally. 
To circumvent the orphan problem, what if the village had to hand over one of their own as of yet unaffected children? That would be a pretty terrible prize for any community, add to the general fear of the guilds and make it almost impossible for rogue rulers to cheat the Guild of their usual fee by waiting and invoking the Rule of Woe.
If you really want to get the orphan into the picture, maybe the family giving away their blood child must simultaneously adopt a monster-orphaned kid as well. That'd probably result in some rather dysfunctional families ("You are the reason our son is gone, you bastard!"), but the Guilds don't seem entirely rational to begin with (considering their normal fees), so it seems likely they might associate this exchange with some sort of mystical meaning or tradition and leave it at that.

I love the 77 year quarantine as a way of keeping the Guild in power.

Can the Guilds be bought for anything? What about transportation of relics or suspects (a la the-not-that-good-but-applicable Season of the Witch)? Or simple assassination? What if a man is accused and slain, but later turns out to be innocent (assuming here the Writ-buyer didn't know), e.g. a village convinced their new neighbour is a witch, warlock or curse-monger? Is it part of their job to protect their clients from the menace or are they only there to track and slay, consequences be damned?       

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
To circumvent the orphan problem, what if the village had to hand over one of their own as of yet unaffected children? That would be a pretty terrible prize for any community, add to the general fear of the guilds and make it almost impossible for rogue rulers to cheat the Guild of their usual fee by waiting and invoking the Rule of Woe.

Yeah, I think that would work much better, if they got to the choose the "best" child from the village - healthiest, strongest, most intelligent. Perhaps the guild could have all these strange tests and measurements and rituals to determine which child is the best (whether these tests are accurate is besides the point).

That also brings up the point that I want the guild to seem very ancient and old and strange compared to the rest of the world - relics of another age with strange beliefs and rites. 

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
I love the 77 year quarantine as a way of keeping the Guild in power.

Why thank you, but is that sufficient reason not to mess with the guild? Fear and mystery aside?

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Can the Guilds be bought for anything? What about transportation of relics or suspects (a la the-not-that-good-but-applicable Season of the Witch)? Or simple assassination? What if a man is accused and slain, but later turns out to be innocent (assuming here the Writ-buyer didn't know), e.g. a village convinced their new neighbour is a witch, warlock or curse-monger? Is it part of their job to protect their clients from the menace or are they only there to track and slay, consequences be damned?        

Monster and sorcerer hunting only. Hunting sorcerers and other users of black magic also gives me the chance to throw human opponents against the guild, ala thralls and dark cultists. I suppose monsters could have human servants as well - wild, mad men who worship trolls or werewolves.

As for consequences, they're pretty nonchalant about protecting the clients, and usually do not get involved in anything aside from killing the monster. The ideology of the guild is to keep the world of the supernatural and unnatural at bay, consequences and other duties be damned.  

Grimmian-Witcherian fantasy otherwise seems a perfect setup for hard moral choices and dilemmas - are you sure the "murder only" approach won't make it degenerate into something more crude and hack'n'slashy?
Of course, there is still the occasional investigation.

Playing the Guild up as a strange and mystical organization sounds great, but if this is designed for roleplaying, how will you get the players to follow these traditions?
What happens to Guild deserters or the handicapped and elderly? Some of them will probably become teachers or administrators, but some must obviously be incapable of carrying out such duties even if they wanted to. Can you buy your way out of Guild servitude? Some of those semi-kidnapped younglings must have a desire to get away from the hard life of monster hunting.   

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Grimmian-Witcherian fantasy otherwise seems a perfect setup for hard moral choices and dilemmas - are you sure the "murder only" approach won't make it degenerate into something more crude and hack'n'slashy?
Of course, there is still the occasional investigation.

Hmmm, I suppose they could be hired to defend the town, but they can't do that forever and would most likely have to hunt down the source anyways. I just that the line drawn between monster-hunting and everything else is a good place to have it, as once the guild starts being hired to do other things - relic hunting, escort missions, etc. - it gets hard to differentiate the guild from common mercenaries.

I think that answers your question, if I understood what you meant by "murder only"

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Playing the Guild up as a strange and mystical organization sounds great, but if this is designed for roleplaying, how will you get the players to follow these traditions?
What happens to Guild deserters or the handicapped and elderly? Some of them will probably become teachers or administrators, but some must obviously be incapable of carrying out such duties even if they wanted to. Can you buy your way out of Guild servitude? Some of those semi-kidnapped younglings must have a desire to get away from the hard life of monster hunting.    

Well hopefully the players will take heart to being part of a super-elite, mystical, monster-hunting guild.

As for the old - not that many adventurers make it to a very old age. Those that do teach, train, and run the guild to an extent. Those that become very old - feeble, senile - are respected and kept comfortable and alive through alchemy until they pass.

As for buying out or escaping from the guild, I can't see that happening often, if at all. Only orphans and children of a certain age - I may lower the maximum age - are accepted, so as to avoid such things. They are most likely indoctrinated during training and then must swear an oath to serve the guild upon punishment of death.

EDIT: I realize that having the players be part of a guild-cult with strict rules and purpose is, well, restricting. But considering players can be anything they want in nearly every other setting, I'm OK with putting limits on what they players can and can't do in Grindelrath. This is decidedly anti-kitchen sink.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
I realize that having the players be part of a guild-cult with strict rules and purpose is, well, restricting. But considering players can be anything they want in nearly every other setting, I'm OK with putting limits on what they players can and can't do in Grindelrath. This is decidedly anti-kitchen sink.

So long as you make this a clearly spelled out premise, it shouldn't be a problem. It's just like telling your players "let's play a game where you're gangsters in 1930s Chigago" or "let's play a game where you're pirates in the Spanish Main", or "let's play a game where you're the crew of a spaceship sent to explore this unknown planet". It's up to the GM to explain what the game is about, and up to the players to come up with characters that fit in (unless they're just given pregens to choose from) - and if they can't stand those restrictions then it might be better to just play something else.

Quote from: Ghostman

Quote from: Señor Leetz
I realize that having the players be part of a guild-cult with strict rules and purpose is, well, restricting. But considering players can be anything they want in nearly every other setting, I'm OK with putting limits on what they players can and can't do in Grindelrath. This is decidedly anti-kitchen sink.

So long as you make this a clearly spelled out premise, it shouldn't be a problem. It's just like telling your players "let's play a game where you're gangsters in 1930s Chigago" or "let's play a game where you're pirates in the Spanish Main", or "let's play a game where you're the crew of a spaceship sent to explore this unknown planet". It's up to the GM to explain what the game is about, and up to the players to come up with characters that fit in (unless they're just given pregens to choose from) - and if they can't stand those restrictions then it might be better to just play something else.

Ok cool, that's what I was thinking, thanks for the opinion!

[ic=The Guild Pact]The Law of Blades - Guildsmen shall not carry Arms nor Armor nor Magick outside of the Guildkeep without the Right of Writ.

The Law of Fee - The Requester of Writ shall pay the Fee. If the Guild fails to complete a Writ, the Fee is thus nullified.

The Law of Neutrality - The Guild shall not interfere in the Affairs of the Realms. The Realms shall not interfere in the Affairs of the Guild.

The Law of Guard - Guildsmen shall not attack Those under the Protection of the Realms. Those who Deny or Oppose the Powers of the Realms are excluded, as are Those who draw Weapons against the Guild.

The Law of Law - Those who break the Laws of the Guild Pact are Subject to Exile or Death.
[/ic]

Do you think that covers most of the loopholes with the Guild? Any I missed? (I'm sure there are)

>>The Law of Neutrality - The Guild shall not interfere in the Affairs of the Realms. The Realms shall not interfere in the Affairs of the Guild.

What happens when the interests overlap? Who defines the 'interests'? Is there an order of precedence in your laws?

I don't think there's a need to define these things too deeply, but I'm asking in case you want to go into that depth.

Quote from: Light Dragon
>>The Law of Neutrality - The Guild shall not interfere in the Affairs of the Realms. The Realms shall not interfere in the Affairs of the Guild.

What happens when the interests overlap? Who defines the 'interests'? Is there an order of precedence in your laws?

I don't think there's a need to define these things too deeply, but I'm asking in case you want to go into that depth.

Those are good questions, but, like you said, I don't think I'm going to go into that sort of depth. It's just the way things are and it is accepted. (However, a transgression of the pact would be a great plot hook.) Now that I have the Writs and the Guild Pact taken care of, where should I focus  next. I have lots of time this week - geography? More information on the Guild? A bestiary entry? Something I'm totally missing?

EDIT: I have had some good ideas for names, especially for places, so far: Ghendt, Strathen, Ryvenwood, Casse-Tyre for some examples

Here's one I always find entertaining:

Make a list of the top seven wonders of your setting.  Maybe you don't need a full seven, but describe, even briefly, a few of the jaw-dropping places or achievements in your setting.  They need not be domestic and from what you've said about Grindlerath, are probably foreign.  Perhaps you could do a Bard's view of these things as he'd present them to the locals?

Quote from: Humabout
Here's one I always find entertaining:

Make a list of the top seven wonders of your setting.  Maybe you don't need a full seven, but describe, even briefly, a few of the jaw-dropping places or achievements in your setting.  They need not be domestic and from what you've said about Grindlerath, are probably foreign.  Perhaps you could do a Bard's view of these things as he'd present them to the locals?

That's actually a great idea, and one I'm definitely going to do.

[ic=The "Seven Wonders" of Grindelrath]Casse-Tere : Perhaps the most important place for the players is Casse-Tere, the citadel-home of the Guild. Days from civilization, perched upon a great stone spire within the Vale of Whispers, deep in the Blackhorn mountains that run through the center of Grindelrath, the Casse-Tere - meaning lonely spire in the Old Tongue - sits ominously, a somber reminder of the glory days of heroes long past. A foreboding and spartan fortress of angular walls and stark, square towers, the Casse-Tere appears empty, and for the most part, it is.

In the golden era of adventurers, the Casse-Tere was a sacred neutral ground among heroes, somewhere where treasure could be traded, spells exchanged, and ideas shared. Its halls where lavishly decorated in the loot of successful quests, warmed and lit by great fires and rowdy with mead and songs of glory. But as that era died, and the Guild Pact born, the fortress became a cold and hollow shell of what it once was. Now its hall are mostly empty, vast corridors of echoes between the small, candle-lit rooms still inhabited the few Harbingers left.

The Fens of Mhire : A vast crescent of soggy, fog-plagued land on the western border of Grindelrath, the Fens of Mhire are notorious as the lair of Witches and Trolls and is the setting for many a folktale and myth regarding those creatures. There are no significant cities or towns in the Fens - as the are most commonly called - but there are a handful small settlements that survive on frog-hunting, mushrooms-collecting, and woodworking. People that live in the Fens are, not surprisingly, referred to as Fenfolk, and are seen as backwards and superstitious people. Within Grindelrath, they have resisted the influence of the Church more than most, but not entirely. As such, the Fens hold many secrets and tales that have long been forgotten, or purged, from the rest of the Realms. The Fens are also dotted with the submerged and slimy ruins of an ancient Elven kingdom from nearly a thousand years past said to hold treasures best left forgotten...  

The Ryvenwood : On the southern border of Grindelrath is the Ryvenwood, the epitome of a dark, brooding forest. While the borders have slowly shrunk to recent fire and iron of industry, but slowly, as the forest manages to strike fear into the hearts of even the stoutest of men and women. While the Ryvenwood is home to many legends, it is most famous for the Beasts of Were, a cursed and blood-thirsty race of men, bound with the blood and appetites of wolves.While most of these so-called "Werewolves" were nearly hunted to extinction during the Silvered Purge nearly a two centuries ago, a few managed to survive - those few being the strongest, the fastest, the oldest, and the most intelligent. In taverns and inns across Grindelrath, stories are frequently told of woodsmen gone missing, cattle and sheep brutally slain, and infernal howling during the full moon.  [/ic]

Nice write-ups!  I'm glad you like the idea.  My British lierature professor in college once spent a lecture discussing what we can learn about the society who wrote Beowulf based on the description of Heorat, which is certainly hailed as being a wonder of that world.  If nothing else, we know that the massive beam that supported the roof required a lot of manpower and cooperation to produce and set in place, and they probalby used soem sort of crane to get it up there, etc.  It was  fascinating class, but more on topic...

So what do your "seven wonders" imply about Grindlerath?  I probably should have mentioned that it helps if they are manmade wonders.  Still, what does Casse-Tere say about Grindlerath?

On a slightly different note, I love the description of Casse-Tere.  It really reminds me of the initial description of the house in "Fall of the House of Usher."

Hmm, once again, good point. I have a few ideas I want to get down today, so I'll just keep the list of the "Seven Wonders" very short.

1. Casse-Tere - The citadel-home of the Guild. Ancient, empty, and remote.
2. Helmut's Wall - The wall that marks the northern border of Grindelrath. Long neglected and unmanned, it nonetheless seems to keep out the pagans and heathens that make their home to the north in the realm of Norsund.
3. The Thrice-Blessed Fane - The headquarters of the Church in Grindelrath, it is a wild mix of architecture from three different periods. It is grand, Gothic, and grotesque, adorned with gargoyles and violent murals and reliefs.
4. The Field Stones - A rolling, fog-bound plain marked with close to a thousand black-stone cairns, covered in strange runes and what appear to be celestial charts.
5. The Tower of Harath - Built in the golden age of heroes by the slightly-mad wizard Harath of Ghent, the Tower was meant to be a great testing ground for adventurers of all manner. Few adventurers actually took Harath seriously. But over the years, legends and stories have grown of the treasures, and beasts, the green-black stoned Tower now holds.
6. The Catacombs - Located underneath the city of Neuren, the Catacombs are a remnant of one of the first human cities founded in Grindelrath. Many scholars believe that the city was built as a vast holy city for the dead for early heathen gods, which explains why the Catacombs are so massive.
7. The Forge - One of the only known remnants of the Dwarven kingdoms that ruled Grindelrath even before the Elves. Carved into the side of a mountain, the Forge is the base of many folktales and stories, almost all involving what is referred to as the "Lurker-in-Stone", a mythological creature of Dwarven legend that can move through stone as if it were air.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
2. Helmut's Wall - The wall that marks the northern border of Grindelrath. Long neglected and unmanned, it nonetheless seems to keep out the pagans and heathens that make their home to the north in the realm of Norsund.

This suggests that the wall is magical or at least being guarded/haunted by something other than men (angels? ghosts?), even if the fact might be unknown to/unacknowledged by people.

Quote from: Ghostman

Quote from: Señor Leetz
2. Helmut's Wall - The wall that marks the northern border of Grindelrath. Long neglected and unmanned, it nonetheless seems to keep out the pagans and heathens that make their home to the north in the realm of Norsund.

This suggests that the wall is magical or at least being guarded/haunted by something other than men (angels? ghosts?), even if the fact might be unknown to/unacknowledged by people.

Hah, well maybe, maybe not....

EDIT: somewhat of the cuff here, but for crunch, I'm looking at E6, with the following variants: Defensive Bonus, Damage Reduction Armor (Modified with reduced AC bonuses and material DR for creatures - silver, gold, copper, cold iron, wood), Vitality/Wound Points, Weapon Group Feats, Incantations, Metamagic Components, and maybe Sanity. I know it's a lot, but I think it all fits the setting.

[ic=Waiting in the Dark...]The inn was smokey and filled with the sickly sweet scent of too much ale. The din of drinking and gossip drifted through the thick air as weary-looking wenches moved with surprising agility through throngs of rowdy, mud-caked men. In a corner sat two men, one meek and drunk, the other coldly calm and obviously in charge of the conversation. The drunk man was small and dirty with a festering wound drawn across his face from just below his left eye to the bump in his throat. His clothes were common, a mismatch of browns and grays, and he no doubt smelled of swine and drink. The man opposite him was quite the opposite. His bearing was proud, but not noble, as if he knew that the blood in his veins was better than the common man without peasants and clergy telling him so. His face was lean and weathered, his blue eyes sharp and bright, and his skin marred with countless scars, large and small. He was missing the small finger on his left hand and his nose had obviously been broken many time. His chestnut hair was trimmed very short. If one looked closely, the pommel of a dagger peaked above his boots. Clad in well made leathers of black and a weathered but well-made cloak, he seemed the quite opposite of his companion.

"Tell me again, once more Louis." said the man in the leathers, pushing a fresh mug of ale towards the other man.

"I already told ye'." Louis replied, the ale starting to curb his meekness, replaced it with snide. "I was in the 'Combs, looking for somethin' to sell, 'tis hard times. Went in somewhere near the edge o' town, where the sewers dump into the river."

"Go on..."

"Well, I went down deeper than I norm' do, the upper 'Combs have been near picked cleans ye' see. So an' outta nowhere, this man, all skinny an' pale an' wailing, jumps outta the dark and claws at me face!" said Louis as he pointed to the putrid gash. "So I ran out as quick as I could."

"And then..."

"Well, I went home an' had the missus try to fix up me face, but it just wouldn't seem to clean and started to fester and smell real bad like. So I went to Old Mabeth, she be a midwife that lives down the road from me kip in the Narrows. Crazy ol' bad tells me I got bit by a ghoul!" Louis laughs and manages to dribble some ale down his chin, some running into his cut. "A ghoul she says! Sure, maybe two hundred years back a ghoul, but they be long. Everyone be knowin' that, plus the Church says so. Starts rantin' and ravin' how now I'm gonna be a ghoul, with me scratch and all that. Me, a ghoul, ha!" He manages on last chortle. "So I tell her to pike off, I walks out, makes me way home, and I find your letter waiting for me two days later. And here we be, good sir."

"As I thought." said the man in leathers as he pulled out a map of the city. "Now, one last thing before you get what you came for Louis. Could you be so kind as to mark where you entered the Catacombs?" asked the man as he pushed the map across the greasy table, the scars upon his hand seemingly dancing in the fires light. The noise and din of the inn seemed to increase during their talk.

"Was wonderin' when you were gonna get to that, that's why I came after all, I wanna get this damned wound healed, smellin' worse and worse by the hour." Louis, now clearly drunk, took the map, marked a crude X with small piece of charcoal, and pushed it back, leaving his hand open, looking half-sheepishly, half-wily at the man in leathers. The map disappeared in the other mans cloak remarkably quick, and small vial of milk-blue glass was placed in the drunks grimy hand.

"There is your price, Louis, drink it all at once and you will be cured." The man in leathers said as he began to stand up. "Now, if you have no questions, I believe we are done here. Be well, Louis." A cool, wet wind blew in the door as the man in leathers left the inn and it's noise.

Louis looked in his palm at the vial, thought for a short moment, and then poured the contents down his throat. He thought it tasted faintly of peppermint as the world quickly spun and then went black. His head thumped loudly against the table. They found him the next morning, dead as door nail, smelling faintly of peppermint.
 [/ic]

Sights, Smells, and Sounds - Heavy, dark, and solid, Nurren is a dour and depressing town. Located in the East, it is usually fog bound in the spring and fall, covered with rime and ice in the winter, and plagued by incessant rains in the summer. The architecture of Nurren has been heavily influenced by the ancient Catacombs that form the base of the city, and so seems "older" than other cities in Grindelrath. Absent are the towers and arches and glass-works that are most common in the realm, replaced by heavy stone work almost entirely in right angles. Its towers are strong but simple, it's walls thick and ugly. But despite the plainness of build, the city is full of strange reliefs and sculptures influenced by the old art in the Catacombs.

Being a river city, the smell of fish and water always fills the city, along with an omnipresent mist that stifles in the summer and freezes in the winter.

TBC.

I've been pondering, and could use a bit of feedback on the question.

The question is whether or not the idea of the guild would be better off in a setting that isn't so Gygaxian and much more fantasic? It would obviously change much about everything - the setting, the place of the Guild within the world, the time frame - but I feel like I'm hitting a wall now that I've gotten past the basic premise of the setting. It would probably work best as a setting for a single campaign or one-shot, but I have no group nor idea how to work an IRC game.

EDIT: I also had the thought of making an alternate-Earth setting, something along the lines of His Dark Materials.

I am not sure I understand the question; are you asking whether to make Grindelrath less Gygaxian or whether to remove the Guild and use it in another setting instead?
I think the Guild fits pretty well with what you have here so far. Of course, most of what you have here is the Guild.
I think the Guild works better in a gritty dark world where the Guild is the last line of defense rather than in a more fantastical setting. Not to say Grindelrath can't be fantastic, but it has to keep a core of "normalcy" for the Guild members to compare themselves to. If magic and super-creatures are everywhere I'm pretty sure the average village would need more than the occasional clean-up team.

Haha, I'm still not exactly sure what I want out of this either.

I did have the thought of putting the setting in Earths history, somewhere around the discovery of the Americas, but I think that draws pretty close to Steerpikes Order of the Black Rose setting. So many options, so little focus...

But if I do keep it in a fairly traditional fantasy world, I'm going to get rid of premise of a golden age of adventuring and all that jazz, it's just too hard for me to work with with the ideas I have. The pseudo-Renaissance era I will keep though, for sure.

Instead of calling it a "Golden Age of Adventuring," why not refer to it in the same way the greeks and romans refered to their legends and myths?  It's not so much a Golden Age as "this is how it once was long, long ago, and we're trying to rebuild the tradition in order to preserve society?"  It makes it all less metagamey and fatastical while preserving the ideals of the Guild.  I agree with Superfluous Crow in that the Guild works better against a grtty, dark backdrop.

Honeslty, your idea of the Guild is somewhat similar to what Elirya has in its adventurer class, except my setting lacks the formalized organization.  As far as what "less gygaxian" means, I really don't know.  Do you mean that it's less metagame-oriented?   Or that it's less beer-and-pretzels?  Or something entirely different?

Gygaxian, HB, I'm just referring to the old school D&D with art that should look like it belongs on the side of a van, and also meta-game as well.

The more I think, the more I'm leaning towards making this a setting with the Guild within it, rather than being a setting based around the Guild, even though the players will still be in the Guild. I keep thinking that this would be best run as individual adventures and campaigns rather than building a whole setting around it.

Quote from: Señor Leetzthe old school D&D with art that should look like it belongs on the side of a van

This is the best description ever.
Especially when you imagine one of those boxy vans from back then. :P

I don't think it would be completely unimaginable to do a campaign where the players play e.g. a minor noble family with a small monster-haunted barony near the borderlands, or rogues who stumble upon something really, really bad hidden behind a wall in a cellar. Having the Guild just allows you to create a credible world where Standard Issue Adventurers fit in seamlessly.

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: Señor Leetzthe old school D&D with art that should look like it belongs on the side of a van

This is the best description ever.
Especially when you imagine one of those boxy vans from back then. :P

Like this?
(http://www.enworld.org/newsimages/DnD_Bus_2.jpg)

Well, that's more of a bus than a van. But I guess.... :P
We should probably stop derailing the thread now.  :ill:

So the Guild is one faction within Grindlerath?  What are some others?  How do they view each other?  How expansive is their control?

Posting van art is never considered a derail as far as I'm concerned.

[ic=Tools of the Trade][note](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Loup-garou.jpg)
A cambius carus - cambius lupos to be exact. A wood engraving from The Marrienwold Manuscript, depicting the so-called "Scourge of Sechberg", killed by Bherrich of Renna in 1254. [/note]

The Guild, in its specialized and peculiar line of work, has developed a number of methods that excel in the vanquishing of fell beasts and unnatural creatures. While a Harbinger is defined by his skills and training, they employ numerous items, weapons, and baubles to assist them in their work.

Copper - Clumsy, unwieldy, and relatively ineffective against men and most beasts, copper weapons - spearheads, ax-heads, and quarrel- and arrowheads are the most common - are one of the few ways to down several creatures, most of which classified as faen malverus, while literally translating as "bad fairies", it means so much more. Will-o'-wisps, spriggans, and changelings in particular are vulnerable to copper, and wounds caused by such weapons burn and weaken the beasts.

Silver - More expensive and more renowned than copper, silvered weapons have become emblematic of the Guild, as the common man,and even the common noble, cannot afford the luxury of a blade of silver. Weapons as such - swords and axes the most common - are used in the destruction of morta corporus - tangible undead brought to life through necromancy, mainly skeletons and zombies. Normal weapons of steel and even silver may shatter bone and cut sinew, but the black magicks that animate the once-dead are more than powerful enough to "repair" superficial damage to the abominations. Silvered weapons seem to disrupt the black magicks that hold together the morta corporus. It is a common misconception among the common rabble that silver weapons can wound faen malverus - were-beasts in particular. A mistake that has lead to many a brave - and foolish - farmers death.

Moon-iron - Forged under the clear, cold light of the full moon and quenched in water infused with hemlock, moon-iron, also called iero lunarus by the scientifically inclined, is a pale, brittle version of iron that is near impossible to shape and quite useless as a weapon. However, moon-iron seems to be one of the only things, aside from powerful magicks, that is effective in the felling a were-beasts, the cambius carus. Carefully forged into fragile spearheads and arrows, moon-iron weapons are often saved until a were-beast has been trapped and weakened in order to deliver the killing blow.

Alchemy - The practice and discipline of alchemy runs deep in the Guild, and to describe its history as well as all its uses is impossible in so few words. Used for healing allies, curing illness, poisoning enemies, and augmenting themselves, all manner of potions, elixirs, ointments, and salves are manufactured and used by the Guild.

Technology - With their considerable resources, experiences, and abilities, the Guild is often at the forefront of technological trinkets and baubles. While the devices made by the Guild are hand-crafted and difficult to recreate, they are a significant part of a Harbingers repertoire. Some examples include gear-powered automatic crossbows, hidden wrist-mounted dart-shooters,  adjustable telescopes, alchemical grenades, and even fickle and dangerous weapons powered by the newly discovered "fire-powder."

Books - While not nearly as glamorous as the strange and exotic weapons, potions, and devices that the Guild has at its disposal, the Library, which occupies an entire tower at Casse-Tere, is perhaps the Guilds most important weapon. Books, texts, scrolls, manuscripts, and codices hold all manner of knowledge on all manner of subjects. Despite their rugged and often violent nature, the Harbingers of the Guild are all literate, if not well read. While the keeper of the Library - the retired Harbinger, Jorrich Thrice-Dead - is loathe to let any of his "wards" out of his sight, sometimes knowledge is required outside the wall of the citadel, and the Harbingers sometimes carry works with them.[/ic]

This stuff is great!
Love the tone it evokes, and you are really good at the time-honored discipline of fictional namedropping. It really adds more than one would think.
Do some of the creatures have really peculiar weaknesses like the traditional vampire's hatred of wooden stakes and garlic? Most of this seems to hinge on what is essentially damage reduction.

Aside from the Witcher, here are some other possible sources of inspiration: Supernatural, Grimm (tv shows) and Van Helsing. I sense the latter has already influenced you slightly, with your mention of automatic crossbows. I do have a soft spot for Van Helsing, but many would probably consider it a slippery slope towards cheesiness, so tread carefully :)

EDIT: by the way I second Humabout's question above. What do you have in the way of inbred royalty, secret societies, scheming syndicates and corrupt clerics?
Are you planning on having unique monsters in addition to the "species"?

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
This stuff is great!
Love the tone it evokes, and you are really good at the time-honored discipline of fictional namedropping. It really adds more than one would think.

Why thank you sir. I'm a fan of name-dropping, glad to hear others like it too!

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Do some of the creatures have really peculiar weaknesses like the traditional vampire's hatred of wooden stakes and garlic? Most of this seems to hinge on what is essentially damage reduction.

Aside from the Witcher, here are some other possible sources of inspiration: Supernatural, Grimm (tv shows) and Van Helsing. I sense the latter has already influenced you slightly, with your mention of automatic crossbows. I do have a soft spot for Van Helsing, but many would probably consider it a slippery slope towards cheesiness, so tread carefully :)

EDIT: by the way I second Humabout's question above. What do you have in the way of inbred royalty, secret societies, scheming syndicates and corrupt clerics?
Are you planning on having unique monsters in addition to the "species"?

I think I'm going to try to deviate from the common tropes of monsters/weaknesses and try to spice things up a bit and make the "relationships" between them unique to Grindelrath. Every species of monster will probably have a specific weakness, some more exacting and precise than others.

As for Van Helsing, I was worried that I was going a bit too Hugh Jackman action movie with the automatic crossbow, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyways. I do think it would be cool for the Guild to have access to strange and unique gadgets and baubles, but I think I want them more subtle than an automatic crossbow.

EDIT: Also, does the art work?  

Automatic crossbows are badass, just saying :p
But yeah, it might get a bit too action-cinematiesque. This setting would probably be best served by a fairly gritty approach, as I have mentioned before.

The art is perfect! Looks like something right out of the Malleus Malificarum or a worn monster hunter's diary.  

EDIT: The Pact/Brotherhood of the Wolf is also a really good (in my opinion) french movie you could draw some inspiration from. Some cool fight choreography and a neat monster aside from the appropriate tone and style.

I've had an idea about Grindelrath as of late.

How characters differ from most settings.

Characters in Grindelrath, the members of the Guild, should not be seen as similar to class DnD interpretations of the fighter, the mage, the thief, and how they act in public. The character players in Grindelrath, once again, as members of the Guild, are social pariahs, at best feared and at worst hated by the populace at large from high dukes to stable-cleaners. Players are more likely to travel cross country incognito (which is hard to do considering their "look" - hardened, scarred, battle-ready, disciplined warriors bereft of any real clue about culture or people aside from imitation) then to march into town, go to the tavern, and see what quests are laying about. The players, as part of their upbringing and indoctrination within the Guild, will most likely be seen as callous, aloof, and cold. The players, however, were trained to kill monsters, not deliver love letters, escort a maiden through the forest, or recover a lost heirloom of some bumbling town elder. The players are mercenaries with a mission, and most likely will not even see the importance or point of such gracious gestures.

This is not say that players cannot put their own twist on the characters, but the tradition part composition doesn't really serve Grindelrath, as neither as the charming rogue, the good hearted fighter, the goofy bard. And while the players would want to avoid collateral bloodshed if they can, they are of the "greater good" mindset. If several small villages fall in order to protect even more larger cities, then so be it.

In short, playing as a member of the Guild requires the player to change her mindset. While I hope this does not seem restricting in any sense, and I'm sure there are more than enough ways to inject personal preferences into characters, it makes much more sense considering Grindelrath is about an ancient cult of monster hunters that protect a society that hates them and that they don't understand.

Wow, Grindelrath is awesome!  I'm not sure if I just missed it completely before now, or if I saw it in its early stages and forgot to keep track. 

I really like the "Dark Fairy Tale" tone.  The "Van Helsing" influence can be valid too, as many aspects DO fit into the framework you have created.  Just make sure not to lose the dark feel. 

Now I want to make something for Grindelrath in one of the monthly contests.

I may just have to now that I have time (read: Winter Vacation!)

Religion in Grindelrath

The Abbey of the Martyred Savior
More commonly known as just 'the Abbey', this religion was founded some 1,000 years back in a land far to the south and to the east. Many scholars once argued that the Abbey in the past, as opposed to itself in the present, was once a faith founded on pacifist, humanistic, and communal values. The faith of the Martyred Savior arrived in the Occident around 500 years ago, and within a few centuries, installed itself as the only legitimate faith in all the west as many flocked to this new, caring faith, turning their backs on the fickle Night Gods of old. However, as the Abbey grew in power and reach, it slowly became but a shadow of its former self. The Abbey and it's labyrinthine hierarchy and bureaucracy, became more concerned what people shouldn't be doing than what they should be doing. Wealth trickled from the bottom up, leaving the peasantry However, that is not to say the Abbey hasn't done decent things or that decent people are absent from their ranks. The Abbey, along with the Guild in it's glory days, was instrumental in arranging and financing the Seven Great Hunts two centuries ago that decimated all manner of monsters, beasts, and fell men. There are some decent men and women within the clergy, but they are usually, sadly relegated to nunneries or monasteries while the corrupt and cunning rise to the top.

Today however, despite its humane past and deeds of valor, the Abbey is nothing but a hollow building of stone and mortar and misery. The Abbey hates and fears all that is strange and ancient and old, in particular what remains of the Guild, and inquisitions and purges have become more common in the last few decades as Abbey leaders seek out heretics and heathens, often finding them were they do not even exist. They are consistently seeking out old temples dedicated to the Night Gods and hidden shrines devoted to the Other to put them to the flame and chisel. Esoteric knowledge is forbidden and archaic scrolls and tome are frequently burned at large gatherings where the Abbey-Fathers, bestowed in regal purple and gold, whip the crowds into frenzy with promises of rewards in the next life and bread tomorrow.

[spoiler]I can see the PCs dealing with the Abbey as tentative allies or full fledged enemies, with masked inquisitors interfering with the PCs at best or actively hunting them at worst. Corrupt Abbey-Fathers could also play the roles of manipulative villains, pushing the truce between the Guild and the powers that be to the breaking point.[/spoiler]

The Night Gods
A strange and undefinable pantheon of benevolent nature spirits, fickle emotions personified, and vengeful celestial deities, the Night Gods were worshiped since time immemorial in Grindelrath and other lands of the Occident before the arrival and spread of the Abbey of the Martyred Savior. Few who follow the Night Gods remain, as the Abbey did its job in rooting them out and putting them to the fire exceedingly well. Most people in Grindelrath, through the teachings of the Abbey, believe that the Night Gods are nothing but fairy tales and myths told by tired mothers to scare their children into behaving. Yet still, in the darker, older corners of the world, shrines and small, crude temples can be found to the Night Gods. Even in the choked, crowded cities of Nurren, Renna, or Marrionwold, small shrines to fertility spirits or death protectors are still periodically found, much to the fear of the city-folk.

[spoiler]I imagine the PCs searching out old Night Gods temples to search for knowledge or artifacts or descending through them to hunt monsters that have made these places their lairs. Small Night Gods cults could also be potential allies or enemies, depending on the situation and which Night God is being worshiped.[/spoiler]

The Other
The Other is the patron deity of the Guild, if the Other can be said to be either a deity or to be an active patron. A mysterious being, neither good nor evil, the Other, as seen by the Guild, is a weaver of fate, a keeper of secrets, and the watcher of some great, overarching cosmological balance. The Other has no tenets nor does he hold his followers to a certain code of conduct - in fact, he probably does not care who follows him at all. For the most part, he is aloof and flighty, but occasionally will take an active hand in shaping events. Several artifacts that belong to the Guild are said to be gifts from the Other in order to further some goal beyond the understanding of mere mortals. Yet even those within the Guild fear him to an extent, his help often comes at a price...

[spoiler]The Other, for the most part, would be removed from the PCs in almost every instance, although 'clerics' of the Other would allow the PCs to choose from a divine-casting class, although it would be more focused upon knowledge and divination than healing and buffing.[/spoiler]

The Exotic Faiths
There are indeed numerous other faiths spread across the world. In the far north, it is said they worship the great ice-bears with offerings of ghost-whale flesh. In the even farther east, all manner of peaceful and violent philosophies exist. Far to the south, beyond the lands of the Salt Kings and over the Mountains of Myr, the people consume the ashes of their ancestors and war over blood-lines and talk to spirits. While some of these religions sometimes make it to Grindelrath through foreign merchants or scholars, they are looked upon with disgust and loathing, and it is well known that the Abbey does not burn them on sight only because of the large bribes that find their way into Abbey coffers.

[spoiler]The PCs in certain instances may have to seek out foreigners for particularly long-lost knowledge or they could even serve as villains, bringing evils to bear never before seen in Grindelrath.[/spoiler]

So, I should probably describe the realm of Grindelrath as it's the setting of the, uh, setting. Note: in this setting, all the real world influences that you all will no doubt pick up are purposeful. This is not a particularly 'original' setting, so if you think of Russia when I mention the northern kingdom of Muscova or of the Renaissance Italy when I mention the City-States of Tyrrusca, it saves me on filling in lots of the little details.

Grindelrath

For a realm that rests in the middle of the Known World, Grindelrath knows little of it. Walled by cloud-wreathed mountains, sickly moors, and labyrinthine forests, it is an ancient, if backwards land. Long isolated, it has resisted or ignored the great changes that are afoot in many nearby lands. In Grindelrath, the old ways still run deep, much unchanged since the elder days. Even the great Abbey, so intertwined with kings and lords in other lands, has a strong but still tentative hold and it is constantly on the offensive against the few remaining heretics and pagans.

A desolate but beautiful land, it is sparsely inhabited. The summers are cloudy and rainy and the winters brutal and bitter. The soil is poor more often than not and the rocky mountains and foothills are fit only for scraggly goats. What few farms exist barely subsist on barley, wheat, and whatever other cultivars they can coax from the soil. Yet within this harsh realm several cities have managed to be born, due entirely to the lodes of ore, gold, and gems that sleep deep within the mountains of Grindelrath.

To the peasants and serfs of the hinterlands, these cities - Rhenna, Nurren, and Aadenburg in particular - represent all that they aspire to. But to travelers of other lands, this is not so. To the roaming gem-merchants of the Tyrruscan Cities, these three 'towns' are nothing but humble, quaint, and rural way-stations. To the wandering scholars and scientists of Carolingia, Merolingia, Albian to the west, they are backwards and uncouth. For the great northern warriors of Muscova, the measly stone walls are worth scoffing over and for the decadent poets and mercenaries of Empire of Ecea to the south think of Grindelrath as realm of dirty shepherds and illiterate shit-shovelers. 

So I've decided to stick with some version of D20 for Grindelrath, as it's the most familiar to me and because it actually makes sense in this setting where the PCs are the elite with access to advanced training instead of the magical "level up" progression out of this air. Anyhow, I'm stuck between two approaches. The first is the easiest, where I tailor the core DnD generic classes to fit Grindelrath somewhat better. Also, I'm leaning heavily towards an E6 route to up the lethality and keep the real-world, visceral feeling of mere mortals, albeit highly able, going against the unnatural.

In the first approach, I think the Generic Classes work well in this setting, as it is much less defined by crunch than many other settings. Using E6 and the Generic Classes variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) would work well in letting the PCs be flexible  in their character design as well as keeping them free from some of the 'baggage' that comes along with some DnD rules - "My Wizard cannot possibly sneak well because she is a Wizard!" or "My Fighter cannot possibly be well-schooled in ancient magic because he is a Fighter!"

The other approach, which would be a lot more work, a LOT more work, would be boiling down D20 to a point buy system where PCs can pick and choose various things at every level accordingly. Even as I type this, it seems like the lesser of the two ideas.

Thoughts?