X-20 Reboot
[ooc]X-20 was my first attempt at making a system made to model modern fanatsy stories better without getting to the absurd levels available for 20th level characters - or even 10th level characters. It was also a miserable failure - in trying to cram awesome into every level, I ended up just creating a problem of density - instead of becoming a god at level 20, you were a god at level 6.
I know that E6 already exists, and E6 is a great way to handle this particular problem, but it has a flaw in that it's not really a system in it's own right - it's a truncation of a system, what you get when you cut a system in third. X-20 or the Legendary System is an attempt to make this an entire system built around the idea that the heroes are dangerous individuals to be reckoned with, but not forces of nature.[/ooc]
Introduction:
X-20 is about creating legends. Not gods, not superheroes, but legendary heroes who are still mortals, can still be threatened, but are still a significant cut above the norm. X-20 is about playing a hero that, upon being ambushed by a dozen ordinary orcs, will grin and ready his blade - but against twenty will hesitate, and against a small army will have to flee or fight and die. An X-20 wizard can seriously threaten a small town or tribe - but against the might of a garrison would fall.
There are four perspectives on characters in the X-20 system: the peasant, the soldier, the king, and the monster.
The peasant sees one of these legendary heroes and is either going to rejoice or flee, depending on their reputation. This person is a huge threat, and you're going to want to show him respect - either because he's earned it or because he'll kill you in a matter of seconds. However, if you live in a big city, you can breathe a bit easier - while the Watch would not be able to easily dispatch of him, their numbers means they'd be able to protect you - if they arrived in time. Of course, that's only if they're cruel...and really, if all you know are the legends, do you want to find out Sir Brightstar's reputation for mercy is overblown?
If you're a soldier, it's a bit different. This person, this level 6 X-20 character, is probably going to be able to murder you right in the face if you start something. But you're a soldier, you're part of a larger force of fighting men and women and no stranger to danger yourself. Sure, you're no legend like this guy, but you're no coward - and you've got the weight of the army behind you. There's no need to needlessly antagonize her - she /may/ be able to kill you before your friends arrive - but if she starts something you're not guaranteed death. If your friends are close. A veteran of dozens of campaigns, however, may even be able to hold his own against such a legend with a little luck on his side.
If you're a leader, you either thank your gods or worry. These people are dangerous enough to be a major destabilizing force if they chose to be, and if the Watch or Army has to intervene they aren't going to take those characters down without losing many more men. If they decide to help you, though, you have a small force that is to be reckoned with. Sure, you won't toss them at a nearby massive dragon terrorizing your town, but their help will up your odds of success in a major way. Plus, their legend precedes them, and they can provide the much needed morale boost for your troops - or if they oppose you, their names may inspire enough fear to turn the tide even though "They are still mortal, they still bleed!"
If you're an intelligent monster, assuming you follow humanoid legends, these people could be excellent tests of strength, perfect components for powerful rituals that require legendary blood, or threats to your plans. You'd have to be a fool to not consider them when plotting - unless you are just that powerful where you do threaten cities or kingdoms. Then the heroes are a bother that could potentially disrupt your doomsday mechanism, though of course they're no risk they could manage that since the only way in is a small but poorly guarded sewer entrance they couldn't possibly know about...
If you're an unintelligent monster, your thoughts on the heroes are likely "GRWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRG." You don't have a vocabulary, you're an unintelligent monster.
Levels and Tiers:
X-20 contains 6 classic levels, at which point you move into advancing within tiers. It breaks down like this:
Beginner Teir:
Level 0 Drawn In: you're an average person thrust into a circumstance through bad luck or fate or the gods or simply refusing to back down. During this you pick up a sword for the first time, find how deep your faith runs, a book of spells, or that you enjoy the thrill – whatever it is, this is where you start your adventure. This method is used if you don't want to worry about how someone is already military trained or studied at wizards school or is a member of the clergy, and fits many classic fantasy tropes. All level 0 characters have the same (lack of) abilities and skill, but have a special resource – which is called pluck, fate, or whatever fits the tone - that only works for that first adventure and is likely the only reason you survive it. After completing your level 0 arc (which may involve a lot of running for your life), you take your first level in a character class, meaning you've now officially entered the...
Adventurer Tier:
Level 1-5 Learning the Ropes: At this point, you are still adventuring – sometimes wondering why the hell you keep getting yourself into these messes. You're much more of a credible threat than your average person, but you're not a figure of legend yet. If you survive until level 6, you will be. Half the time, though, surviving to the next sunrise looks less likely. During this time you grow in power and health – in game terms, the bonuses you get for skills, attacks, damage, health points, saves all increase until they reach their (mostly) peak in the...
Legendary Tier:
Level 6 Becoming The Legend: Now you're there. You've reached a lot of your peaks, and increases in how much you can achieve in some senses stop here. On paper, you look much like you will for the rest of your career in the areas mentioned above barring some feats and bonuses from items. (which are limited and rarely give you more than a bit in certain circumstances). You're never going to reach the point where you can hit the DCs needed to balance on water, leap hundreds of feet, lift boulders, or any other superhuman/wuxia feats. Instead, what advances here is a reduction in your chance to fail as you get abilities that allow you to reroll or provide a minimum roll (treat a roll of 1-4 as a 5 when making X check for Y reason, for example.) Your abilities also increase in frequency – spell casters can cast more spells, berserkers can rage more, etc. Finally, your reputation grows, which provides boons – and poses dangers of its own.
What's Going to Change:
Using Pathfinder as a basis, I'm going to modify the first 6 levels of some core classes. Not all that much. That's where I went wrong last time. But enough to make sure they feel like iconic members their class by level 6 without the massive power boosts that plagued the old X-20. In addition, I'll be creating legendary feats and bonuses for reputation to provide advancement and play post 6. With all that, we'll also be seeing some monsters and magic items retooled for the new power level of the campaign, magic will get a good hard look, and more core classes will exist as prestige classes get cannibalized for feats or turned into core classes, and classes are created that break down existing classes that have a bit too much, and custom classes get made for different settings. This post is a philosophy post: I'll start getting down to more brass tacks in later information.
I will definitely follow and give my input, but it will be more from an observer's aspect rather than a convert's. My own desires for a system are a bit grander; what you describe is what I want out of "heroic tier", but I and my group also want "Crouching Tiger" martial artists and the likes of myths. You reach there at 6th level, which is nice and fast relatively speaking, but the lack of "up" past there worries my own sensibilities. Then again, if those six levels are very well done, and legendary characters go on to become fixtures in the setting ... then maybe a legacy mechanic of switching to the next generation of heroes would be fun.
definitely interested to see how this develops
Always appreciate the observations of Cap'n Crunch. :)
I think I stop just where your system picks up. The feats obtainable keep you advancing as you play - the game really is meant to come into it's own at level 6. I'm looking at modern fantasy-non trilogy series as my example: book 1 would be your level 0 adventure, where the characters start becoming heros, book 2 would be levels 1-6 as the progress into the heroes of the tale and rapidly gain new skills, and then books 3-X are where you are the legendary heroes that keep the series going. Crouching Tiger style stories typically start off where you are already a legendary warrior (or at least a warrior with legendary skills) which is a very different style of system - both equally valid, and I'll admit I love those kinds of games, but you're right in that we're looking at entirely different design goals.
The idea of a legacy system intrigues me so that after characters complete their story, a new game can be started at level 0 again...but with advantages from the legacy left from your prior characters. I've considered actually putting mechanics for post 6 development that let you integrate into the fabric of the world and reach a definite "end", a la 4e's epic destinies, but decided that such a system is best left to flavor and fluff. However, mechanics in play that let your next character pick up benefits from the previous one - the "Dread Pirate" system - are something I'm interested in. By the way, depending on how close you're sticking to d20, I recommend checking out Pathfinder's new book (free playtest version available at Piazo) which deals with mythic heroes - I'm planning once i've gotten X-20 Core completed, incorporating rules like those, which WILL better support those wuxia style heroes you're looking for.
If nothing else, I trust your mechanical expertise as much as anyone else's on these boards, tied with only a couple other people's, so your feedback is greatly appreciated. (Especially since you're better at math than I am.)
There are a couple thing I actually wanted your feedback on in particular was fractional saves - in normal d20, the end difference in base save bonuses with a difference of 6 (30%). At level 6, however, that difference in base saves is 3 (15%) - At that point, do fractional saves become less unbalancing than they normally are, in your opinion?
As far as classes I go, a number are going to be fairly unchanged from their 1-6 Pathfinder versions with some minor tweaks, listed below:
[ooc] classes original versions can be found at d20pfsrd. I'll convert these to tables which show all features when not working from my phone, because bb tags on a phone are HARD.[/ooc]
[ic]Barbarians are going to be as Pathfinder core with trap sense removed, replaced with bonus unarmed damage as a level 1 monk at level 3 and DR 2/- at level 6.[/ic]
[ic]Bards are getting +1 to spells per day, and Lore master is moved to level 5 and usable a number of times per day equal to int modifier (limit 1)[/ic]
[ic]Druids are getting some of the most changes. At level 4, wild shape is gone. Instead, at level 4 (in addition to resist nature's lure), they gain a second nature bond, but are treated as 3 levels lower for the bonuses of that bond, and it must be of the alternate type of the bond chosen before. (A druid with an animal companion instead gains a domain but only gains the domain abilities, while a druid who picked a domain gains an animal companion at effective druid level -3 as a ranger.)
At Level 5, they gain Natural Empathy, which allows them to use Wild Empathy on Magical Beasts, Dragons, Plants, and Vermin without the extraplanar subtype with an intelligence score 2 or lower (mindless plants and vermin are treated as having a score of 1) with no penalty, and may use the handle animal skill on those creatures with a -4 penalty.
At level 6, they gain "Spurn The Unnatural," which gives a +2 bonus on saving throws against the spells, spell like, and supernatural abilities of aberrations, constructs, outsiders, and undead, and a +2 bonus to defense against those same creatures. [/ic]
[ic]Fighters, in addition to adding perception and heal to their class skills, gain Armor training 2 at level 6, and bravery +2 is moved to level 5.[/ic]
[ic]Monks get some major changes as well. Flurry of Blows gets a third attack at a -2 penalty at level 6 (So a level 6 monk's flurry is +4/+4/+2),
Ki Pool is available from 1'st level.
At level 1, ki can only be spent to add an additional 20 feet to his speed for one round.
At level 2, Ki can also be used to add on additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows.
At level 3, Ki can be used to give himself the +4 dodge bonus.
Wholeness of Body is gained at level 6.[/ic]
[ic]Paladins are mostly unchanged, but get 2 additional skill points per level.
At level 4, instead of getting spells (which paladins never gain), a paladin adds her charisma modifier to the damage she heals when using lay on hands
At level 6, a paladin's lay on hands grants its target fast healing equal to the paladins charisma modifier for 1 round per 2 paladin levels after used, and can also be used to harm evil outsiders same as it harms undead.[/ic]
[ic]Rangers lose their spellcasting abilities and instead:
At level 4, a ranger gains a +10 foot enhancement bonus to their base speed. This bonus increases to +20 feet in a favored terrain.
At level 5, a ranger gains woodland stride.
At level 6, a ranger gains Woodland Stride. This ability also function in any of his favored terrains.[/ic]
[ic]Rogues are pretty much unchanged. Improved Uncanny Dodge can be selected in place of the rogue's usual rogue talent at 6th level or any time a rogue gains a talent through a feat after sixth level.[/ic]
[ic]Sorcerers gain access to 2nd level spells at level 3, third level spells at level 5, and the ability to cast 2 4th level spells a day at level 6, learning a single one. Absent feats, typical bonus spells based on ability score do not apply to how frequently he can use this 4th level spell.
Bloodline powers, feats, and spells are redistributed:
the first bloodline spell is moved to 2nd level
The second bloodline spell is moved to 4th level
The bloodline feat is moved to 5th level
The third bloodline power is moved to 6th level[/ic]
[ic]Wizards gain access to 2nd level spells at level 3, 3lird level spells at level 5, and the ability to cast a single 4th level spell at level 6. Absent feats, typical bonus spells based on ability score do not apply to how frequently he can use his 4th level spell slot, though he can learn additional 4th level spells as normal.
At 1st level, and every level thereafter, a wizard gains 2 additional skill points. These additional skill points must be spent on knowledge skills.
At 2rd level, a wizard gains his first bonus feat from the normal list of wizard bonus feats.
At 5th level, a wizard gains his second bonus feat.
At 6th level, a wizard gains the level 8 ability of his school.[/ic]
The good news is that by focusing on levels 1-6, you're focused in on the tier where Fighters don't suck as much simply by virtue of spellcasters not having diverged as much yet.
However...
The bad news is that you haven't actually done anything to make the Fighter not suck. :dead:
After all, by level 6, Wizards and Sorcerers can still turn invisible, fly, shoot fireballs, and so on.
Adding Perception to their class skills is actually pretty good... but it's not nearly enough. Give the poor guy a few more skill points, maybe? And, I'd think, some kind of "mundane badass" class feature that lets a level 5 or 6 fighter do some interesting and badass things that let him even hope to compete with the invisible flying wizard. I like the idea of a Fighter having three good saves, maybe, and possibly even some way to further boost his Will save. A sort of mundane "massive damage" save or die could be cool, too.
How about if, after level 6, instead of gaining a feat at every level-up, fighters get them every other level up, but their BAB and maybe also saves continue to increase (probably at a slower rate than before) so that they really stand apart from other classes as combat death-machines?
I like the roll-attack-roll-damage simplicity of fighters - surely if you want a plethora of crazy powers to call on, you can play a spellcaster - but I also think sparkle's right that they need something to make them feel a little bit special compared to the other classes.
Mearls's "Book of Iron Might" had a very good attack improv system. It was a table of effects with commensurate attack penalties. At one time, I reverse engineered it, comparing their trip maneuver to the standard trip maneuver and the feat improved trip to create my own "improved maneuver" feat. I could share it with you if you want Xathan; it would be an easy way to let fighters do cool things without having to give them so many toys that they don't feel like fighters anymore (also, since anyone can do these maneuvers, fighters would just have more options since they have more feats, it feels right).
I definitely think the fighter needs a bit of a boost - giving them a good will save and a couple more skill points is a good way to handle it, for starters, (thanks for the suggestion) and I've considered expanding their armor boosting skill to also give them a bonus against reflex save effects when wearing heavy armor (the bunker defense against explosives), but one of the balancing factor in X-6 is duration - that flying, invisible wizard is only going to be invisible for 30 seconds (30 seconds guaranteed to end if they attack, since they never get greater invisibility) and flying for 6 minutes, max. And part of what I like about spells spell level 4 or below is that there are precious few save-or-die effects, and none of the really good, guaranteed save or die: if I gave one to the fighter, it'd have to have a ton of limitations on it.
As far as badass normal attacks...I'm open to suggestion, but part of the problem I'm having with adding more badass to the fighter inherent in the class is restriction: part of what people who love the fighter love about it is the fact that you can, with the same class, make a master archer (often better than a ranger), a two handed cleaver, a sword-and-board defender, a spiked-chain wielding nightmare, a plate clad brute, and about a dozen other possible things - all within the same class. I can't for the life of me figure out an ability that offers that degree of flexibility. It all ends up feeling like making Fireball a mandatory sorcerer spell. Which sounds great on paper...but if you want to play an illusionist that rarely gets in the fray himself, or an enhancer that buffs his allies, or an enchantress that turns friend against foe, you're never gonna use that class feature - and by forcing you to have it, it's wasting design space on something you don't want. You'll feel like if you're playing a sorcerer and not fireballing things, you're doing it wrong. Maybe my analogy isn't making sense, but I'm hoping so. And if you can think of some kind of badass normal attacks that doesn't limit the fighter, please share - I'd love to give them one. Or maybe it just comes down to feats, and I just need to make sure the fighter has more awesome options when it comes to feats. Again, suggestions are welcome.
Addendum: part of the problem is also making sure I don't repeat my mistakes on the original X-20 and end up, by trying to add more awesome, ending up with people, instead of being the complete gods they used to be at level 20, were gods at level 6.
Kindling: the problem with that is that post 6' there aren't anymore levels: it's every X000 xp, you can buy a feat. Levels are gone, so there isn't really an Opprotunity for that to happen. That, and then there is the balance issues that arise. However, one way to make something similar to this happen is to give them a bit more by way of iterative attacks than paladins and barbarians...but then that steps into monk territory.
Xeviat: I'd love to see that please! I've read iron heroes before and liked the concept: in fact, using inspiration from that book for some other classes. (Particularly the Archer)
MOVING FORWARD:
What comes next is going into the feats available. I'm going to be starting with the standard slight advancement feats, the 'requires the class level X' feats. There's also going to be some feats that show how I intend for advancement in terms of decreased chance of failure instead of increased numbers to work. And this section probably makes no sense, so the simple version: coming next will be some feats intended for post 6 advancement.
As far as the fighter goes, why not let him have his second attack (which assuming full BaB progression is being maintained he gets right as he becomes a legend) at a -4 or -3 penalty rather than -5 so he gets a second attack at level 4/5 instead. That way the flexibility of weapon choice and style is still all in the players hands, they just know they'll get more attacks than other classes sooner, which hopefully balances things out a little.
Quote from: Xathan
As far as badass normal attacks...I'm open to suggestion, but part of the problem I'm having with adding more badass to the fighter inherent in the class is restriction: part of what people who love the fighter love about it is the fact that you can, with the same class, make a master archer (often better than a ranger), a two handed cleaver, a sword-and-board defender, a spiked-chain wielding nightmare, a plate clad brute, and about a dozen other possible things - all within the same class. I can't for the life of me figure out an ability that offers that degree of flexibility.
You could possibly greatly expand the feat and ability choices for fighters, picking and choosing from Pathfinder archetypes, 3rd parties variants, etc. So, in fact, they could, as you said, become a master archer, two-handed cleaver, etc. but with limited use abilities thrown in to make it interesting.
I suppose you could also expand their access to weapon mastery feats. A wizard can pick and choose all manner of spells, but once a fighter is specialized, she is kind of put into a corner with longswords, or maces, or whatever. Expanding the range of weapons Fighters can use well could possibly serve as a counter to the spell options that wizards get.
Quote from: Xathanflying for 6 minutes, max.
Keep in mind that in D&D time that's 60 rounds. You can do a
lot in 60 rounds.
Quote from: Xathanpart of what I like about spells spell level 4 or below is that there are precious few save-or-die effects, and none of the really good, guaranteed save or die: if I gave one to the fighter, it'd have to have a ton of limitations on it.
You might be right about overt save-or-die, but even low level spellcasters get a lot of save-or-you-might-as-well-be-dead show-stoppers. Even at
level 1 there's good ol'
color spray. By spell level 4, you're throwing around
black tentacles.
Quote from: Xathanpart of what people who love the fighter love about it is the fact that you can, with the same class, make a master archer (often better than a ranger), a two handed cleaver, a sword-and-board defender, a spiked-chain wielding nightmare, a plate clad brute, and about a dozen other possible things - all within the same class.
Ok, I get that. I also get that people playing a Fighter don't want to mess around with huge lists of abilities. However, I also think that people playing Fighters want to be able to contribute to level-appropriate challenges, which, I do think, necessitates something of an increase in the guy's versatility. Just boosting BAB or damage doesn't seem to quite cut it, in itself, because, while it does make the Fighter that much better at hitting things with his sword (or his arrows, or his spiked chain, or whatever) he's already pretty good at that. It doesn't add any
versatility. Stuff like giving the Fighter better Will saves or more skill points adds to the number of things that the fighter can actually do to contribute. So, here are some abilities that can save a Fighter from things that might normally give them a hard time, without diluting the "Fighter-ness" or forcing any one archetype:
-
Tuck and roll - The Fighter no longer takes falling damage.
-
Armored Soul - The Fighter gets a (hefty) bonus to Will saves against save-or-bad-thing-happens magic.
-
Constant Threat - The Fighter can take attacks of opportunity even against enemies he wouldn't normally threaten. (we'd need to figure out exact crunch for this one)
-
Talented - The Fighter chooses a skill. It is now a class skill.
-
Speedy - The Fighter can use a swift action to do something that isn't an attack but would normally require a standard or move action.
Also, I'd replace the rather narrow and worthless Weapon Focus with this version:
Preternatural Focus - Any weapon in the Fighter's hand does not actually become magical, but is considered +1 for the purposes of attack, damage, and what it can hit. If it is already magical, its bonus is considered one higher.
Quote from: XeviatMearls's "Book of Iron Might" had a very good attack improv system. It was a table of effects with commensurate attack penalties.
I've never actually played with these rules, so I don't know, but they didn't seem like they were very useful. For most of the good stuff you seriously took like a -20 or -30 penalty on your attack... and you're only rolling a d20. Unless you're fighting some enemy that you'd just guaranteed crush anyway (and if that's the case, why are you wasting the time on this fight?) then it seems like you're better off just fighting normally.
There was also a crappy version of Power Attack, which I didn't understand the point of at all... considering anyone who would find Power Attack useful probably already took it, given that it's one of the few feats that's actually and unambiguously useful.
Quote from: Xeviatit would be an easy way to let fighters do cool things without having to give them so many toys that they don't feel like fighters anymore (also, since anyone can do these maneuvers, fighters would just have more options since they have more feats, it feels right).
They have an optional rule that lets Fighters use their BAB or something because they don't have many skill points... and right below that, there's another optional rule that lets spellcasters use their caster level and casting stat to do stunts, too. So basically casters get to do everything that Fighters can, probably better than them, and Fighters suck again.
Quote from: Xathan
Kindling: the problem with that is that post 6' there aren't anymore levels: it's every X000 xp, you can buy a feat. Levels are gone, so there isn't really an Opprotunity for that to happen. That, and then there is the balance issues that arise. However, one way to make something similar to this happen is to give them a bit more by way of iterative attacks than paladins and barbarians...but then that steps into monk territory.
Yeah so I guess what I meant is they can buy BAB increases using their XP in the same way.
I like what you're doing here, Xathan. Good stuff! Now, I still play PF and I've played it through the beta, so I'd like to think I have some degree of experience. I'll give you my best crack at what you're doing!
So, most of this looks really solid. Yeah, Sparkle is right about the Fighter issue, but if you're going to get on the Fighter's case, then you might as well get on the Rogue and the Monk. I'm of the opinion the Fighter is much better than both of those classes, albeit a bit dry in comparison.
The Monk suffers from MAD (multiple attribute dependency), and has conflicting mechanics: on the one hand, they have a natural movement speed progression that allows them to be nice and mobile (which is great since, without godly stats or awesome items, they won't have a good AC and they lack a decent HP pool), but their arguably core mechanic, flurry of blows, requires a full round action to perform, i.e., you get a 5 foot step and that's it. Giving them the ability to heal at an earlier level is great idea, but they could probably even stand to get it earlier, to be honest.
The Rogue won't actually be as bad by virtue of people capping out at 6 (being the "skill monkey" gets progressively worse after level, like, 8, when spellcasters can just dominate folks or fly or whatever), but they also aren't great damage-dealers, even with sneak attack. A Fighter generally has the best average damage, upstaged only by a few case-specific examples (paladin smiting evil or ranger fighting his favored enemy, for example). They don't have access to weapons with great damage, and they don't have a means of reliably getting out of the fray - getting into and out of flanking, the best place to be as a Rogue, requires good skill rolls (not an issue), but staying there isn't easy with low armor and HP. I would honestly consider giving them some rogue talents similar to the Ninja (maybe flavor invisibility as being able to easily blend into the crowd/chaos of battle and appearing elsewhere). Honestly, giving them something like that would boost them a ton.
Rogues and Monks usually require a lot of feats to be decent, as well (Rogues more so). Honestly, slapping a few more bonus feats here and there couldn't hurt them.
Also, the Paladin. The Paladin is one of the best (Magus close behind), if not THE best non-full spellcaster classes out there. Smiting is super good, and their heals are really, really good (swift action to heal myself mid-combat? Don't mind if i do!). I'm playing a paladin in one campaign (currently level 3) and playing alongside one in another (currently level 14). Holy crap are they good. I would be really, really hesitant to give them more healing capability. If anything, they make the Fighter that much worse :P (don't nerf them for that - that's a crime by most classes).
Anyways, this looks pretty cool! I hope it develops into something you really enjoy :).
Quote from: sparkletwist
Quote from: Xathanpart of what people who love the fighter love about it is the fact that you can, with the same class, make a master archer (often better than a ranger), a two handed cleaver, a sword-and-board defender, a spiked-chain wielding nightmare, a plate clad brute, and about a dozen other possible things - all within the same class.
Ok, I get that. I also get that people playing a Fighter don't want to mess around with huge lists of abilities. However, I also think that people playing Fighters want to be able to contribute to level-appropriate challenges, which, I do think, necessitates something of an increase in the guy's versatility. Just boosting BAB or damage doesn't seem to quite cut it, in itself, because, while it does make the Fighter that much better at hitting things with his sword (or his arrows, or his spiked chain, or whatever) he's already pretty good at that. It doesn't add any versatility. Stuff like giving the Fighter better Will saves or more skill points adds to the number of things that the fighter can actually do to contribute. So, here are some abilities that can save a Fighter from things that might normally give them a hard time, without diluting the "Fighter-ness" or forcing any one archetype:
- Tuck and roll - The Fighter no longer takes falling damage.
- Armored Soul - The Fighter gets a (hefty) bonus to Will saves against save-or-bad-thing-happens magic.
- Constant Threat - The Fighter can take attacks of opportunity even against enemies he wouldn't normally threaten. (we'd need to figure out exact crunch for this one)
- Talented - The Fighter chooses a skill. It is now a class skill.
- Speedy - The Fighter can use a swift action to do something that isn't an attack but would normally require a standard or move action.
Also, I'd replace the rather narrow and worthless Weapon Focus with this version:
Preternatural Focus - Any weapon in the Fighter's hand does not actually become magical, but is considered +1 for the purposes of attack, damage, and what it can hit. If it is already magical, its bonus is considered one higher.
Quote from: Xeviatit would be an easy way to let fighters do cool things without having to give them so many toys that they don't feel like fighters anymore (also, since anyone can do these maneuvers, fighters would just have more options since they have more feats, it feels right).
They have an optional rule that lets Fighters use their BAB or something because they don't have many skill points... and right below that, there's another optional rule that lets spellcasters use their caster level and casting stat to do stunts, too. So basically casters get to do everything that Fighters can, probably better than them, and Fighters suck again.
I love Fighters, by the way. I think they're fun, in a sort of mindless, hack'n'slash manner. That said...
The versatility of the Fighter is probably one of its biggest weaknesses as well as its strength. Fighters are cool because you can kinda them a bunch of ways (sort of; there are definitely mechanically superior/dominant ways to build a Fighter). But Paladins and Rangers and Barbarians and to some degree even Rogues are, at their roots, flavored Fighter classes. Like, the Fighter is sort of an anomaly in the current class regime. Why not have a really customizable Fighter, Sneaky Guy, and Spellcaster? I'm of the opinion that the Fighter needs a little focus, and sparkle's right - versatility is the way to go. They're really good at hitting things and soaking up hits.
I like sparkle's suggestions! Those would be a great start. Fighters also have some "class abilities" in the forms of feats (class abilities by virtue that only a fighter can pick them up). Maybe you should consider looking at those (Disruptor, the Weapon Focus tree, the critical feat tree, the shield specialization tree, etc.) and slapping those into the levels. Granted, it'll be helpful, but most of those feats still revolve around just attacking and doing damage or being able to beef up AC - again, things the Fighter can do quite well already. Hope this helps some!
EDIT: But I don't like rogues. Rogues still suck.
Wow. So much feedback, thank you all! I'll get to full replies tomorrow likely when im not typing on an ipad, but wanted to thank you all for the outpouring of support and ideas. Keep em coming!
For instance, the BoIM maneuver system had "boost damage" as an option, which was +1 damage for every -2 to attack. Thus, "improved boost damage" was power attack: -1 to hit for +1 damage. Likewise, "knockdown" is a -20 penalty (remember, this is ontop of a normal attack), while the "Improved Trip" feat is (forgive me if I'm wrong) one attack for trip with a bonus, followed by an extra attack.
Also, the maneuver system had drawbacks. Provokes attack of opportunity fromt he target is a -5 penalty reduction (-10 if a successful AoO cancels the maneuver). Effects only is a -5 penalty reduction. Opposed check, and Reflective Attack all exist too: The standard trip maneuver in the PHB is built as "knockdown (-20), effects only (+5), opposed check (+5), Attack of Opportunity, target only (+5), and reflective attack (+5)". Improved trip removes the attack of opportunity, removes the reflective attack, and gives a bonus attack if successful; this can be reverse engineered into an "improved maneuver" feat.
Now, I'd advise prebuilding maneuvers, just like spells, so the game doesn't slow down.
Wow, with those drawbacks, it takes a lot of the maneuvers that might be worthless and makes them almost too good. I mean, the rules even say as much, with a whole lot of "well you might not want to do this" and "don't let players do this all the time" and stuff like that. It honestly comes across as pretty mealymouthed and just one step away from "hey, let players do whatever they want, as long as it makes sense and doesn't break the game" which is... well... how D&D works anyway.
I personally really prefer the more reductionist approach to maneuvers of systems like FATE, where you basically just do something that fits the fluff of the moment, and then someone later on can "tag" the effect of that maneuver for a bonus, without getting into a lot of the gritty details of what exactly was done to whom and where. It is, admittedly, a little more dissociative, and might not suit a "crunchier' system like D&D.
Quote from: WeaveThe Rogue won't actually be as bad by virtue of people capping out at 6 (being the "skill monkey" gets progressively worse after level, like, 8, when spellcasters can just dominate folks or fly or whatever), but they also aren't great damage-dealers, even with sneak attack.
It's not that terrible, but sneak attack is absolutely essential.
A level 5 sword and board fighter (+5 BAB, str 20, -2 due to power attack) with flanking has a +10 attack bonus, as does a level 5 finesse rogue (+3 BAB, dex 20) who is also flanking, so I won't mess with factoring in hit odds and crits and such and just figure damage. They'll both probably be using d8 weapons. So, the fighter will be doing d8 + 5 + 4, or an average of 13.5 damage. The rogue, when he makes a sneak attack, will be doing d8 + 3d6, or an average of 15 damage. If he's got a small strength bonus adding to damage, it'll be more like 16 or 17. Of course, the rogue's damage becomes paltry when he can't make his sneak attacks, and Pathfinder removed some tricky (or, dare I say, sneaky...) ways you could get sneak attacks in D&D (grease spells, ranged attacks, and such) so there's that. If we assume the fighter does his damage every round, and the rogue only gets sneak attack half the time, that's 27 over two rounds for the Fighter, and only 20.5 for the Rogue, so you really do have to sneak attack.
So general consensus on Fighters seems to be "They Need Fixing!" Figuring out how is the tricky part. Tons of good ideas here, and I need to chew on some of them - fraid I can't give everyone the reply they deserve here, but I'll do my best.
Hippopatamus, I like the idea of giving them their second attack earlier at a lower penalty - the question is, will my OCD let me do that for only one class? I'll try and see how that works for me - hopefully I can resist that, and it works out.
Xeviat: I like the maneuvers but have trouble seeing how that wouldn't become a balance nightmare. I'm going to be putting that into a "for later" category - I want to add them, but feel doing them early on will bog me down. If I do, I'd go with your suggestion they be pre-built to prevent too many balance issues...which means I'd be making a whole knew spell list. I'm actually reminded more of Arcana Unearthed's Martial Maneuvers, which might fit better.
Sparkle: Some of those are going in as feats, and Preternatural Focus as a class skill makes perfect sense as opposed to just being a feat, since it's good for every fighter. I'm also thinking weapon focus and weapon specialization are gained as bonus feats automatically by every fighter (in addition to regular things at particular levels) and apply to a group of weapons (swords, maces, bows, crossbows, etc) as opposed to a single weapon to broaden their focus.
Talking about weapon focus gave me an idea as well - any weapon wielded by a fighter that has focus in that weapon could be used to inflict a condition (vs a fort save DC = 10+Fighters Attack Bonus) instead of damage. Things like bleed, dazed (big old mace to the head), slowed (arrow to the knee)...stuff like that. It'd be a special "Fighter Only" portion of those feats. Thoughts?
Kindling: I'm hesitant to directly boost BAB, worried about getting into "I never miss" territory - I don't want people with +10 BAB on top of everything else running around, y'know?
Weave: I am 100% behind adding a few more bonus feats to monks, but I feel rogues function pretty well as is, so long as they can manage to sneak attack (as sparkle's math shows). Of course, once things have been beefed a bit more we'll see, but for now I'll keep the class as is. As for Paladins, I'll probably adjust their new heals to not be as good when used to self-heal to keep them from becoming too monstrous. ;)
As for Fighters, I honestly considered splitting the class into three - melee dude, tanky dude, and archer - but decided against it. I do like the idea of adding some of their trees to the class - maybe at levels when they don't gain a regular fighter bonus feat, they get a "useful to every fighter but still fighter focused" bonus feat?
Some more (non-fighter) stuff to come in next couple of days, largely depending on how busy work is (I get most of my writing done these days between calls.)
Quote from: sparkletwist
Quote from: WeaveThe Rogue won't actually be as bad by virtue of people capping out at 6 (being the "skill monkey" gets progressively worse after level, like, 8, when spellcasters can just dominate folks or fly or whatever), but they also aren't great damage-dealers, even with sneak attack.
It's not that terrible, but sneak attack is absolutely essential.
A level 5 sword and board fighter (+5 BAB, str 20, -2 due to power attack) with flanking has a +10 attack bonus, as does a level 5 finesse rogue (+3 BAB, dex 20) who is also flanking, so I won't mess with factoring in hit odds and crits and such and just figure damage. They'll both probably be using d8 weapons. So, the fighter will be doing d8 + 5 + 4, or an average of 13.5 damage. The rogue, when he makes a sneak attack, will be doing d8 + 3d6, or an average of 15 damage. If he's got a small strength bonus adding to damage, it'll be more like 16 or 17. Of course, the rogue's damage becomes paltry when he can't make his sneak attacks, and Pathfinder removed some tricky (or, dare I say, sneaky...) ways you could get sneak attacks in D&D (grease spells, ranged attacks, and such) so there's that. If we assume the fighter does his damage every round, and the rogue only gets sneak attack half the time, that's 27 over two rounds for the Fighter, and only 20.5 for the Rogue, so you really do have to sneak attack.
Maybe it's just my experience, but I've more often seen fighters with bastard or greatswords than, say, a longsword or something. d8 is about the highest damage dice a rogue can get (might be wrong on that), but d8 is pretty midrange for a fighter.
Sneak Attack is certainly essential; there's no doubting that. I didn't mean to imply SA was somehow bad - the rogue as a general package is bad. SA does wonders for them, but it's not enough. Then again, I'm also not one to advocate rogues being super bursty damage-dealers, rather just being really scoundrel-ly acrobats and thieves, so I'm not convinced SA or their damage is actually a problem - it just doesn't contribute strongly enough to make them all that relevant later in the game despite having a mechanic that would imply so.
I had seen an alternative use for the speciality at skills by allowing them to use skills to mimic spells effects - like a rogue (and only a rogue) could roll well enough on, say, a diplomacy check to use the spell
suggestion on them, or for Stealth to actually have them go invisible, or something. I thought it was pretty cool, but it'd need a fair DC and a set number of times per day they could utilize it. I don't know if that's something you;d be interested in, Xathan, but I might be able to go digging for you!
As far as Rogue possibilities go, altering the movement system so 5-foot steps are allowed only while unencumbered and unarmoured unless you are a rogue (who can take them in Light armour and with Light encumbrance) might help. Also folding the split movement action of Spring Attack so it's just a rogue ability might help.
I'd advise against using 3E's BAB's; just have everyone grow at +1 per level, and have warriors (former bab+1/level classes) get a +1 bonus at first level. When you're only dealing with six levels, the differences are small (+6, +4, +3), but the rogue would really be helped out by getting any boost they can.
Then again, rogues rarely attack normally. They attack with flanking (+2 to attack) or vs. flat-footed (no Dex), so perhaps their low attack bonuses don't affect them much.
As for Hippo's spring attack suggestion, many systems just have that as part of the rules. Heck, I can peak out from behind a wall, fire a nerf gun, and then hide.
Xeviat: I'm keeping BAB as is, because changing everyone to a +6 at level 6 has some serious implications that would require major rebalancing:
1) one of the few things that keep casters in check is the need for touch attack rolls. WIth the extra BAB, those touch attacks would need to be all reworked.
2) If I'm trying to keep the fighter from falling too far behind, boosting it up where a wizard/cleric/etc will be close to as good as a fighter with a weapon the fighter doesn't have the right feats in (or at least, will be 15% closer) kind of kills that.
3) It'd mean everyone would get an iterative attack, which I want to keep as a perk for the pure martial classes (Fighter/Paladins/Barbarians and any related classes)
4) It makes Dex the most ultimate of the ultimate stats ever with weapon finess, allowing it to cover pretty much all rogue attacks at even 10% higher.
5) Pathfinder tied BAB to HD (low gets 1d6, medium gets 1d8, high gets 1d10 or occasionally 1d12) and I like how natural that feels to me.
6) I feel like everyone gets same BAB/saves/skill points type systems feel a bit too homogenous.
7) Above all else: I'm lazy. I really don't want to spend hours and hours fiddling with every little class and system trying to get everything perfect balance. In fact, this seques nicely into a little rant:
[spoiler=WARNING: RANT IN HERE]I BELIEVE BALANCE IS A SACRED COW
True balance, 100% every class is balanced in terms of damage output and such over the course of most fights, is something RPGs always seem to strive for. And I think it drives RPG writers to become Mike Mearls: after all, the easiest way to make sure everyone is special is to make sure no one is. I'm fine with the fact that in some situations the Wizard will shine more than the Fighter, the Rogue will outshine the Cleric, the Cleric will outshine the Wizard, the Fighter will outshine the Wizard. (Which is part of why I'm so willing to rework the fighter, because the fighter rarely gets those moments, especially compared to the higher damage dealing barbarian and the better meatshield paladin). But rogues are masters of subterfuge and sneaking and all that. If they underpreform in combat statistically compared to some other classes...I'm okay with this. If I'm playing a rogue, I'm not worried about my DPR (damage per round) - I'm worried about my ability to scout, stealth, find traps, steal, etc. And sure, i want to be able to at times creep up behind a guy and one shot him with a well timed sneak attack, but if I fail to match another class in how much damage I'm doing...not a huge problem unless there is a vast gulf. That's part of why I like the level 6 cap - sure, the wizard can turn invisible which totally overrule rogue stealth, but can only do it for about half a minute, whereas I can sneak all day long. When I'm comes to balance, I'm more worried about "Does class X fail to do what it should do best?" Does the wizard fail as a caster? Does the sorcerer fail as a caster that feels at least slightly different from the wizard? Does the Fighter fail at being the badass normal with a weapon? Does the rogue fail at being a sneaky underhanded dude? (I feel the answers to that are No, Slightly, Yes, No, in order.) So keep the feedback coming and I do love reading the statistical damage output of rogues vs fighters vs wizards vs X and all that...but keep in mind that such tweaking will come later on once I've gotten a workable beta of a system together. The other area of balance I'm worried about are godmode combinations - things that give you ulimited spells in a single round or pun-pun or hulking hurlers throwing around planetoids or any other build that breaks the game entirely.[/spoiler]
Hippo: Doing so seems god on the surface, but totally gimps any Fighter that wants to use a reach weapon...and we're avoiding gimping fighters, or at least trying to. Giving Rogues a limited spring attack as a trick they could pick up (perhaps one that reduces the chances of attacks of opprotunity to make up for a slower movement speed) seems like a good idea - one I'd fold into the rogue bag of tricks.
Weave: I'd love to see that system. Either I could fold it into rogues, or I could make it part of another, later class, or make it something that could be picked up by legendary characters...please, do share!
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Now, I know I promised feats and post 6 advancements, but I realized I first need to go over existing feats more to have a better idea what basis I'm working from - I typically make skill monkies or casters, so my feat knowledge is...not as extensive of my knowledge of other areas of the rules. So that's going to be delayed some. However, some samples of things I intend on doing with feats:
All Legendary Feats can be taken once you've already reached level 6.
Feats such as acrobatic, stealthy, awarness, will all get a legendary version that gives you a minimum roll for that skill - each feat can be taken twice, meaning that when rolling the affected skill you treat any roll 1-4 as a 5 at teir one and then any rol 1-9 as a 10 at teir two - essentially meaning you always are taking 10. (The first rank of this cost 5000xp, the second costs 10000xp - it's not a cheap thing to manage)
A Legendary Fighter feat as part of the weapon focus chain means that, with that group of weapon, your minimum roll is a 5 - and you never fumble.
A Legendary Fighter feat that opens some manuvers suitable to your favored weapon catagory as per Xeviat's suggestions.
A Legendary feat that gives you access to those tricks sparkle mentioned on page 1 for fighters - and only fighters can do them in heavier than light armor. (The Veteran Adventurer feat).
A Ranger feat that gives you that minimum attack roll fighters have when going against a favored enemy.
An Arcane Caster feat that lets you get a single level one spell at will.
A divine caster feat that lets you heal an ally whenever you apply a buff to them.
Feats that let you pick up additional rogue tricks.
Sorcerer/Bard feats that give you an extra spell known (These build in teirs - you have to have this feat 3 times for a level 1 spell to get it for a level 2 spell)
Multiclass Feats to create some late-game gishes and support gishing - although plenty of classes will gish it up.
And more!
I'll see what I can find, Xathan!
Also, in response to your rant: I'm sure I triggered some of that incidentally, and I apologize for that. I firmly share your beliefs about "true balance" being boring and something that shouldn't be striven for, and I think that, aside from being a little dull every now and then, the Fighter is well-balanced as is. He serves a role of front-line combatant better than most, and while spellcasters get loads more versatility, they still need someone/thing between them and the big bruiser their trying to turn into a frog. I was trying to illustrate that the monk and rogue were, debatably, underpowered despite the fact and may need a boost to make them a little better at what they generally do - my goal was not to compare DPR or other statistics, and it got close to becoming that.
Anyways, I have faith you'll take this in a good direction based on what I've seen. Good luck!
Quote from: Weave
I'll see what I can find, Xathan!
Also, in response to your rant: I'm sure I triggered some of that incidentally, and I apologize for that. I firmly share your beliefs about "true balance" being boring and something that shouldn't be striven for, and I think that, aside from being a little dull every now and then, the Fighter is well-balanced as is. He serves a role of front-line combatant better than most, and while spellcasters get loads more versatility, they still need someone/thing between them and the big bruiser their trying to turn into a frog. I was trying to illustrate that the monk and rogue were, debatably, underpowered despite the fact and may need a boost to make them a little better at what they generally do - my goal was not to compare DPR or other statistics, and it got close to becoming that.
Anyways, I have faith you'll take this in a good direction based on what I've seen. Good luck!
Actually, the rant wasn't directed at anyone in particular or triggered by anything. I just was getting myself far to stressed about individual class balance and had to do that to avoid panicking and dropping the project altogether. I hope I didn't offend or scare anyone off...I just needed to make sure I keep myself focused on the goal, and needed a button I could click to remind myself of it.
...I probably should have mentioned that yesterday when I posted it. I'm sorry if it offended anyone. I really, really need to not post when I'm stressed out that much. :(
Haha, no harm done :). I just wanted to apologize for potentially steering the thread in a different direction. Now, BACK TO X20 TINKERING!
Also, here it is: https://sites.google.com/site/triomegazero/kirthfinder
Check out the Rogue (or any classes, for that matter). Some have some really good ideas ripe for the picking.
So...much...to...read. I know I'm doing with my night! :D Thanks a ton Weave.