(Note, before reading: After the discussion below, I'm dumping most of what's here.)
Hello, all! I'm new around here. I played RPGs all through high school and college, but was away from them for a long, long time. I've had my dice out again for a year or so, but have been a player most of that time, save for a couple of one-off adventures. Now I'm getting ready to start my own campaign, the first one I have run in about twenty years, and I keep hitting a brick wall. Some background on what I'm playing:
The system: Savage Worlds - the whole group has significant others and/or kids, so a fast system works perfectly for us, as scheduling is a nightmare and efficient use of time is a must.
The setting: An original build of an existing setting. Reaper Miniatures has a setting for their products. It has some interesting elements, and I also play their wargame, so I have a lot of the setting-specific miniatures. Using their setting is ideal, as only a couple of small areas in the world have been 'officially' detailed, meaning that I can make it what I need it to be. Think of it as a standard fantasy world with some interesting quirks (such as many parts of the world being in near-constant armed conflict.)
The characters: I have three players. SW is a skill-based system, so there are no classes, but I'll try and draw comparisons. I'll link directly to the miniatures they're using. Two characters are distinctly non-human in a very human region.
One is a Koborlas (http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/luta/latest/14613) who fled his home after being yanked out of chosen clan and forced into another after being 'chosen' to be a shaman. He was quickly kidnapped, mistreated, and didn't escape until he was far, far from his homeland. He's primitive, angry, and confused. He has some basic shamanic powers (nothing fancy), plus some typical rogue/tracker type skills.
The second is a Mongkohn (http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/reptus%20cleric/sku-down/14096#detail/14096_af). He's a wanderer and a priest, perhaps a bit of a monk/cleric. He's a mild pacifist (self-defense only) and is focusing mainly on divine magic, mainly defensive and healing. His goal in life is to teach the other races about his people and their ways in order to bring the rising hostilities to an end.
The third is a Dwarf (http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/Dwarves/sku-down/14173). He left his home after showing cowardice in battle, leading to the deaths of his brothers. Despite him blaming himself, those brothers now visit him as spirits, supporting him and providing guidance. He's a runeforger, a dwarf with the ability to channel dwarven rune magic through his armor and weapons. Essentially, he's a warrior with the ability to briefly enchant his items.
The story(ies): Now here's where I keep hitting the wall. I've got a great intro, and a couple of long-term plot options, but I can't find a decent way to tie the intro into the plots and to bring the characters into the main sequence of events. (Note: Chapter numbers are abstract placeholders.)
Chapter 1 A few days before the game, the Mongkohn and the Koborlas met. Both being outsiders, they found themselves kindred spirits, and the monk's peaceful wisdom brought some peace to the troubled Koborlas. A few hours before the game the Koborlas will have been scouting a group of (enemy) moving through their area. He made a mistake and was captured. The peaceful Mongkohn, fearing for his new friend, has run to get help. This is where the actual game starts. A few miles away he'll come upon a small village with an inn. At the inn is a small smithy where the dwarf character has been unofficially apprenticing. The dwarf will most likely follow the monk back and help him free his friend (whom I will allow to break/pick his cage/bonds just as they begin their assault.) This starts things off with an action sequence, introduces the characters, and gives them a common bond.
The (enemies) were mercenaries. Found in their wagon is a chest of polished, glowing crystals, along with a badly injured human soldier. Too tempting to pass up, the characters will likely take them back to the inn. Later, an NPC will show up demanding the return of the crystals in the kind of aggressive manner guaranteed to make the players refuse. If he's refused, he'll leave and return with a small horde, likely including some undead, leading to a defensive fight in a burning inn in which...
Ends chapter one.
Chapter 3: The wounded soldier was a Templar (goodly knightly sortly) who had hidden himself with the mercenaries, along with several others of his order. They intended to take the crystals from the mercenaries and take them to a border town in a neighboring nation. The crystals are trapped souls (bindsouls), which are required by undead spellcasters in order to use magic, as they have no souls of their own to tap into. Some Big Bad Dead Guy has some sort of a plan to do Big Bad Dead Guy Evil Stuff and requires the souls. The Templars are working with emissaries from the neighboring nation to sabotage his plan. The neighboring nation (who are powerful magic folks, knowledgeable about souls, and enemies of the undead nation) have had several of their own mages sacrifice their own lives to have their souls bound as a 'trap' - when the Big Bad Dead Guy (BBDG) uses one, (bad things) will happen, possibly involving the destruction of his entire hoard of bindsouls. Not only that, two hostile factions (the Templar's order and the southern nation) will be on their way to a truce.
Chapter 5: Brick wall. Somehow, I need the PCs to confront the BBDG, and nearly beat him before he uses his Ace in the Hole and escapes (if possible.) Remember how the dwarf PC had the spirits of his slain brothers appearing to him? The BBDG, at the end of chapter 5, somehow steals the souls of the brothers and escapes with them far to the north, to the same region that the dwarf was originally from.
Chapter 10: The BBDG has allied with the same enemies (orcs/giants) that the dwarf was facing off against when he fled the battle (leading to him having an opportunity for revenge/redemption.) The forest the Koborlas is from is on the way from where they are to where they're headed, giving that player a chance to gain redemption, plus possibly recruit a group of allies. At some point, I see the players having an adventure into the orc lands to recover the dwarf's honor (along with an item his unit lost - a banner, maybe?) from the orcs, followed by a massive battle between the dwarves and the orcs, with a possible surprise arrival by a pack of the Korborlas' character's people to help out. As this battle rages,the PCs finally face off against the BBDG, the dwarf recovers his brothers, the Koborlas PC is recognized by his pack again, and the monk... Er, says something deep.
The problems: So, here is where I keep hitting walls. How the heck to I motivate the PCs to get from chapter 1 to chapter 3? They rescue the Templar. They recover the bindsouls. The fight off the attack to recover them. Now they go south with the templar because...? Why would they? Because he asks nicely? These aren't really characters motivated by greed, and I hate to resort to the cheese of having the BBDG kidnap the dwarf's sweetheart.
The same problem crops up between 3 and 5. Ok, they took the souls to the southern nation and heard about the plan to sabotage the BBDG. Why are they going to stay involved? What could motivate them to push on into the undead lands themselves?
Assuming I get all of those motivations in place, why did the BBDG choose that one place to escape to? Why there? What did he have to gain? Is it pushing coincidence too far to have him go to the dwarf's old enemies?
These don't seem like they should be huge hurdles, but I've been banging my head against them for weeks now.
Note: My plan is to outline the whole story, but only write up one or two sessions in advance in order to allow myself to adapt to whatever oddball things the PCs decide to do. I'm trying not to be railroady, which is difficult, as that was standard practice for campaigns that last time I played regularly!
Anyway, any help or additional brainstorming isn't just welcome, it is begged for.
love the characters. Really. Having spirits interestct is a lot of my game
My issue is so far it looks like you want to run the railroad while not. And you need to decide yes or no. Your data on cha[pter 5 basically says you are in a railroad. No insult intended, but...I have done this a while.
one thing I need to counsel, either way, is patience. whether it happen in chapter 5 or chapter 15, ...let it happen by the players initiative, so they feel the pride of accomplishment, instead of the railroad.
Yeah, and that's what I'm trying to get away from. Nearly everything out there when I used to run campaigns was based on railroading, back when it was 'normal' instead of 'bad GMing.' I can absolutely railroad them through my story, no problem. I just kidnap the love interest, then have the BBDG steal her soul. Problem solved in 15 seconds. I'm trying to find a way to not do so, though, but have no idea how to and still tell the story.
well, as you know, they are two differrent types of game...but, in my book, with the non-railroad allowing for a longer term, more immersed game possibility.
1) stop worrying so much about having them do these things asap. Give them a few optional things to do, even short term, so that they staret to feel the sandbox.
2) grab some more personal, lower depth stuff. a Korbalis who has already acculturated in town, a dwarf family of a church preaching context, etc. let them build some more ground level ties and personal relations.
3) throw more shit in. More details make it deeper and more rewarding vs the obvious railroad.
4) http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/60581028/Vreegs%20Rules%20of%20Setting%20and%20Game%20Design
Thanks for all of the input.
I've come to a realization. I started playing RPGs back in the boxed D&D days. Back then you had a dungeon. That was it. If you were lucky, there was an inn nearby to buy supplies at, but that was all. You walked through the front door of the dungeon, or you put away the dice and played Atari. RPGs were tactical wargames with a hint of 'role' in them. Eventually people discovered plots, but the plots were invariably excuses to get the PCs to take actions. They were a series of encounters that would be hit in a set order. Hell, I remember published adventure series where there was - literally - an enemy army in every direction except where you were supposed to go. That was toned down considerably later on, of course, but there were still 'do it or else' mechanics. That was the era in which I ran multiple campaigns and wrote hundreds of hours of material.
That was also about the time I left college and stopped playing RPGs.
In the intervening decades, RPGs evolved. My knowledge an experience did not. The basic and fundamental skills that every GM (including myself) learned back then are now considered 'bad GMing.' As a point of fact, I now realize that I have never played an RPG, run an RPG or read and RPG that weren't railroads. That was simply how things were done. Unfortunately, every time I try and write, I end up with a different set of rails. I find that I have absolutely no clue how to fill an eight hour window with interesting activity without falling back on those skills.
On the bright side, I'm aware that my techniques are no longer considered valid, and that I'm in over my head. On the downside, I'm aware that I have no idea how to go about undoing that.
(Oh, and thanks for the link. Reading and bookmarking.)
Well Vreeg is the right person to talk to here if you want to talk through the difficulties. He's the most old school on the site. :)
My advice: If your players don't mind a railroad- give them a railroad. Gaming is whatever makes you happy.
Easy ways to avoid railroads: Don't design a plot like a Serial T.V. Series... that is, like a 1950s serial TV where the bandit gets away at the end of the episode. Instead, use minions. Evil Guy 1 is a minion- players stop and kill him- but WAIT! He wasn't really evil. He was mind controlled by Villian 2... who was working for Villain 3...who is doing this evil plot because she believes she can save the world by doing these evil things and OHMAIGOSH! The players need to decide- does the end justify the means? Can we stop the end of the world without selling our souls to Villain 3? Etc. And along the way they pick up tools through side quests that they can use to possibly save the world even without Villain 3's help.
Short answer; to avoid railroading- don't plan for the villain to escape. He might not and then where will you be. OR plan for a Plan B (if you have the time-which you may not...assume he'll be caught as I describe above to save time- you're still sticking to your plan, but you're doing it fast)- in Plan B if he's caught or killed then well- let's go into the B storyline.
In shows like the Simpsons there are now three storylines.
A. The main story (Homer versus the Donut Police)
B. The side story (Bart versus the real police)
C. The joke third story that probably doesn't interact with one or two (Marge finds a diamond that was stolen!)
Maybe find something to work with that. If the players defeat storyline A; then focus on storyline B until you have time to come up with a new storyline A. and keep them busy with storyline C to distract them from the SECRET PLOT! You're developing that will at some future point be revealed and explain THE TRUE STORY behind what happens.
Welcome and good luck. :yumm:
re: getting from chapter 1 to 3... would the templar telling them very earnestly that only by doing this can they SAVE THE WORLD! And he needs an escort because he's injured. If greed won't motivate, perhaps an appeal to better character... and maybe the alienated person will want a chance to join his templar order which can give acceptance.
At some point, characters really do need to take an offered hook, rather than just stay in the inn and play cards all session. :suprised:
Thanks!
I'm thinking that, maybe, the solution might be to find something modern that is pre-written. Use something already designed for modern sensibilities and learn from that.
Yeah, I'd already thought of a few variations of that idea, including having him ask them to pose as the group of mercenaries they'd destroyed to deliver the crystals - but then I realize that, once again, I'm telling the players what to do.
Quote from: GreybirdI'm thinking that, maybe, the solution might be to find something modern that is pre-written. Use something already designed for modern sensibilities and learn from that.
I don't think this is really going to help you all that much. Pre-written modules are often as railroady as ever, in my opinion; they kind of
have to be, because there's simply no room to include any sort of interesting plot or developments unless you have a pretty clear idea where the players are going to go and what they're going to do, so things are kind of set up along those lines. The worst are the "players show up just in time to watch important NPCs do something important" sort of modules, which, unfortunately, are more common now because they try to put in social elements and such instead of just being a dungeon to crawl like in the [not very] good old days.
Anyway, about the "railroad." Personally, my systems of choice all lean towards having a healthy amount of "narrativist" game mechanics that give players a lot more narrative control over the game than systems like D&D. I like these as a player, but I also like them as a GM-- and, as a GM, they provide the interesting advantage that it's sort of
impossible to railroad too much, because they players have so much more role in shaping how the game develops. The best you can do is design a few vaguely defined encounters that you'd like to run, and then see how you can work them in as the players shape the plot. You'll have to improvise a lot, but that's the idea, right?
So, perhaps the solution is simply-- give the players more control over the narrative, then you
can't railroad them. :grin:
As an aside, about Savage Worlds, isomage doesn't post much but he's got a good page about fixing problems with the Savage Worlds dice system: http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/rpgmath/explode/
Hey, Greybird! Welcome to the community.
Quote from: sparkletwistSo, perhaps the solution is simply-- give the players more control over the narrative, then you can't railroad them. :grin:
I think that this is very sound advice, and I can't agree too much. I'll add one bit:
[ic]Wait until players have made their characters, and you know something about those characters, before you do most of your planning.[/ic]This has been hard for me to get used to, but I think it has two huge advantages.
First, it ensures that
players lead, and that many of your decisions are in reaction to their characters. If your group includes a bitter rebel who wishes to avenge a wrongfully-murdered parent, or a holy hierophant who feels a divine call to usher in the Will of Heaven, or a shrewd and quisling scholar who seeks dark and diabolical pacts for esoteric power--
these are powerful cues about which direction your game should go. The more you've preplanned a different thing, the less able you are to respond to these signposts from players.
Second, waiting for players before you plan prevents you from planning excessively, since players have got their characters and are ready to play, and usually don't want to wait three months while you plot out your epic story. (Note: do not "plot out an epic story." Thinking in those terms is a pretty good sign you're doing things from the wrong way 'round.) When you have time constraints, you're more or less forced to get some bare-bones stuff in place and leave all other details hazy. That's great! Fill them in later! The more "blank space" you leave yourself now, the more agile you can be when reacting to player action. (Note: "reacting to player action" is 50% of the ideal. "Putting players in tense, surprising, and/or emotionally freighted situations" is the other 50%.)
I like to think of a campaign in terms of a distinct Early Game, Middlegame, and Endgame, and do different things in different parts.
In the Early Game, you're testing. You're getting to know your characters, you're putting out a bunch of "plot feelers" to see which stick around and which sort of die away. You don't have many (or any!) specific reasons and explanations for things yet; you can develop them later. (So the assassin was mind-controlled! By whom? The players don't know, and your might as well not know, either. Later, you can backfill this information to make it tie into whatever needs to be made relevant. You can introduce an evil alien parasite in Session 10, and then have players discover it was behind the mind-controlled assassin in Session 1, and look like a pre-planning genius who's doing hella foreshadowing even though you didn't think of the alien parasite until the day before Session 10.)
The Early Game is about setting up an environment for your players. You throw out a bunch of different ideas and see which ones capture their attention. And ideally, you design at least 70-80% of the ideas with one or more of those characters specifically in mind. I like to throw out a lot of symbols and omens without really knowing exactly what they're about, so that when I repeat a motif a dozen sessions down the road, I look like a prescient genius.
In the Middle Game, you start pruning the plot threads, closing off the ones that don't have a lot of long-term appeal, and further developing (read: "complicating") the ones that seem most robust. Here is where you start filling in detail in your notes, and you can start answering a few of the "why" questions to yourself. Here is where it sometimes seems characters are Moving Down a Path Towards Destiny, but it's a destiny they chose and shaped, because you're doing all of this with an eye for player input at every step of the process. You
might start a few new minor side-plots during this time, but for the most part you can do just fine by painting with the palette you've already given yourself during the Early Game.
In the Endgame, you're setting up climactic showdowns and whatnot, and this is really a process of seeing through your surviving plot threads to completion. If there have been prophecies, they start coming true at this time. If a character seems destined for a Tough Choice or a Cruêl Fate or a Terrifying Showdown, those start to happen during this time. By this point, it should seem pretty clear where everything is pointing, and you're basically juggling-- you're guiding the whole mess to a satisfying conclusion while trying to ensure nothing gets dropped or forgotten along the way.
I think this works pretty well as a process, and seems to give satisfying results. But the important thing to consider is that it doesn't work if you start planning the steps out of order. If you've already got too much of the Endgame in mind from the outset, that's a railroad.