The Campaign Builder's Guild

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Rules Thread (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209826.msg223409.html#new)

Character Creation (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209905.msg223473.html#msg223473)

Looks very interesting, Xathan!  I'm glad my stuff has been inspirational.  If I can scrape together enough time to play I'll probably go for an Alienist or Fleshshaper.  The world reminds me a lot of Magic: The Gathering and the Rhialto the Marvelous bits of Dying Earth.

Are you thinking of making any major modifications to my system for Forbidden Arts?  Magic in particular is incredibly crude in Underdeep, since the focus is really on dungeon-building, military might, etc rather than complex sorcery.  Like, spells don't have levels, they don't drain any kind of mana/spell points or anything, there are no spell-trees or whatnot, no different schools of magic, etc (I considered implementing some of these things, but discarded them as unnecessarily complex for what I wanted to accomplish).  PC experience is also super primitive, with abilities being awarded purely by GM fiat (I thought of adding an XP system in but the thought of balancing it with all the pre-existing units made my brain cry).  Are you going to keep the uber-simple approach towards spells and/or xp, or are you thinking of doing something a little more complicated?

A big question that you may not have answered yet even for yourself, but are there going to be different planes of existence that we can travel to, or is it going to be strictly "earth-based" at least to start?

Finally, good luck!  If your experience is anything like mine, designing these things can be a bit all-consuming, but bash on!  Mine took me about 2 months to develop.

EDIT: One other piece of advice: you might think about removing or limiting Scry or else changing how it works somehow (like maybe you need to spend a turn doing nothing but scrying or something, I don't know).  It can be a lot of work to keep up with Scry requests!

Now that you mention it, MtG was probably a very big subconscious inspiration for this setting - totally unintentional, but I like the parallels. I hope you decide to play - the more the merrier, after all! Even if you don't, your feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Magic may be the biggest modification I make. If nothing else, I'm going to be expanding the potential spell list by quite a bit, and I'm pondering casting limits and spell points and such, though I might ditch those in favor of elegance - my "fallback" solution is that each spell would have a set of casts per week, with uber spells having a set number of casts per month. The more complex part will be some kind of way to research new spells that's fitting with the caster/genius-centric theme of the game.

As far a XP, I'm going to go with a "Milestone" system - every Milestone you reach, awards 1 XP, and you need milestones equal to the next level to advance (so 2 get you to level 2, 3 to level 3, 4 to level 4, etc). It's impossible to reach more than one milestones in a week, hence the fairly "quick" advancement, since at best case you are going to be reaching level 4 at week 9. I'll be creating advancement on the fly as the game goes on, and will be working to develop the milestones system more formally in the coming days.

Other planes of existence are an absolutely, but I'm keeping things "Earth" based for the start. My release "schedule" for myself is opening up the Etheral Plane 2 months in, opening up the Plane of Shadow a couple months after, opening the Astral Planes a little bit after that, and if at 6 months this game is still going strong I'll be opening up a bottle of champagne to celebrate and opening up a bevy of stuff for you all. Interspersed in there I'm hoping at opening up new regions of the world to conquer or fear. :)

And thanks! I'm aiming for an April start, depending on interest, and I'm lucky in that a lot of the hard work you had to do in creating the base system has already been done for me. Thanks again for letting me use the system. :)

If I change Scry, it would be that you have two options - you can get an instant view of what is going on in that region at the beginning of the term as a form of postcognition, or you can see everything that goes on in the scried region next turn. In other words, no real time scrying - you gotta decide if you want to see what has happened or prep yourself to see everything that will be happening. Figured removing the real time element would be helpful, as would knowing at the beginning of a turn what someone is going to be watching from the start. ;)

Noting interest. I will have an Inventor up sometime tomorrow, hopefully.

Glad to hear it TMG! I'll have the character creation thread up in an hour or two, when I get to home PC.

EDIT: Actually, feel free to post here for now - I'll make a character creation thread once I get more (any) races actually complete. :P

As I've said before - very very cool idea. You already know I'm interested and are quite familiar with my character ideas so I'll skip ahead to my main question - is the Myrkwood actually a solid stretch of woodland or is that just a name for a region wherein there is forest but also endlessly rolling steppeland and marshes and jungles etc.

Now as far as the question of spell costs, etc. I've always been in favor of the model in which there is no inherent limit upon magic - no spell slots, no mana points - simply the fact that magic is dangerous and at the best of times has a chance of failure (with fairly dire circumstances) and that the odds only ever get worse and one major factor that increases difficulty is volume of casting at any given time.

It is under this model thus theoretically possible to cast magic all day every day but in reality casters (or their players) must very carefully weigh up the benefit of being able to cast a certain spell with the penalty should they fail - the more spells you cast the more dice you'll find yourself rolling and therefore the more chance you have of rolling snake-eyes and finding yourself maimed, dead or worse.

In other words, spell-casting is governed by a base skill/set of skills (1 primary skill per caster type with each caster having three 'class skills'? Who knows, there are multitudinous ways to model it) and each spell has a basic DC which is raised by any number of factors (possibly including the possibility to modify target, duration, exact effect, etc - in this case the modifier would decrease over time as the Leader became used to the spell's new form until the modifier would otherwise vanish at which point the modified-casting would become a new and discrete spell) most notable among them the number of other spells being cast in a 'turn' (or similar measurement).

Just to show in practice what I'm talking about, here's an example from a previous setting of mine (in spoiler tags so that people can skip over it)
[spoiler=Example]
Premise: A tribe of barbarians who worship a bear-totem and live in high cold mountains have the ability to chant weather-spells and eventually call up blizzards
Execution: All 'spellcasters' possess the skill Blizzard-Chanting and there are base DCs for most weather effects (in this instance it was a no-spell system, at least in the discrete sense). A successful Blizzard-Chanting check causes the caster to take an amount of nonlethal cold damage (mild hypothermia and the like) relative to the scale of the effect and ameliorated dependent on the scale of success, a failed check inflicts lethal cold damage in roughly doubled quantities (frostbite, severe hypothermia, blood beginning to freeze, etc) leading to major character difficulties if not death.
This presents a model where any level of power can be wielded by even a beginning character but the fairly stiff penalties for even successfully cast magic forces the player to make hard choices based on common-sense as to when and whether it is worth the gamble.
[/spoiler]

Anyhow I don't know if any of that was helpful to you, Xathan, but I just thought I'd put in my two cents on the question of magic and how to run it in an Underdeed-like system.

Quote from: HippopotamusDundee
As I've said before - very very cool idea. You already know I'm interested and are quite familiar with my character ideas so I'll skip ahead to my main question - is the Myrkwood actually a solid stretch of woodland or is that just a name for a region wherein there is forest but also endlessly rolling steppeland and marshes and jungles etc.

There are variety of terrain features in the Myrkwood, but it's pretty much just forest and marshes. Steppeland and jungles will come later. :)

QuoteNow as far as the question of spell costs, etc. I've always been in favor of the model in which there is no inherent limit upon magic - no spell slots, no mana points - simply the fact that magic is dangerous and at the best of times has a chance of failure (with fairly dire circumstances) and that the odds only ever get worse and one major factor that increases difficulty is volume of casting at any given time.

It is under this model thus theoretically possible to cast magic all day every day but in reality casters (or their players) must very carefully weigh up the benefit of being able to cast a certain spell with the penalty should they fail - the more spells you cast the more dice you'll find yourself rolling and therefore the more chance you have of rolling snake-eyes and finding yourself maimed, dead or worse.

In other words, spell-casting is governed by a base skill/set of skills (1 primary skill per caster type with each caster having three 'class skills'? Who knows, there are multitudinous ways to model it) and each spell has a basic DC which is raised by any number of factors (possibly including the possibility to modify target, duration, exact effect, etc - in this case the modifier would decrease over time as the Leader became used to the spell's new form until the modifier would otherwise vanish at which point the modified-casting would become a new and discrete spell) most notable among them the number of other spells being cast in a 'turn' (or similar measurement).

Just to show in practice what I'm talking about, here's an example from a previous setting of mine (in spoiler tags so that people can skip over it)
[spoiler=Example]
Premise: A tribe of barbarians who worship a bear-totem and live in high cold mountains have the ability to chant weather-spells and eventually call up blizzards
Execution: All 'spellcasters' possess the skill Blizzard-Chanting and there are base DCs for most weather effects (in this instance it was a no-spell system, at least in the discrete sense). A successful Blizzard-Chanting check causes the caster to take an amount of nonlethal cold damage (mild hypothermia and the like) relative to the scale of the effect and ameliorated dependent on the scale of success, a failed check inflicts lethal cold damage in roughly doubled quantities (frostbite, severe hypothermia, blood beginning to freeze, etc) leading to major character difficulties if not death.
This presents a model where any level of power can be wielded by even a beginning character but the fairly stiff penalties for even successfully cast magic forces the player to make hard choices based on common-sense as to when and whether it is worth the gamble.
[/spoiler]

Anyhow I don't know if any of that was helpful to you, Xathan, but I just thought I'd put in my two cents on the question of magic and how to run it in an Underdeed-like system.

In theory I love this idea. In practice, I am far too lazy to figure out how to implement it in a way that's fun, fair, and balanced...and wouldn't require too much more work on my part. :P I appreciate the idea and I'll mull it over, but for now I'm going for a simpler method for sake of my sanity. :P

I think it'd become too much of a chore to manage a full fledged faction in both Underdeep and this game, but I'd love to try and play a lone monster.

Quote from: Ghostman
I think it'd become too much of a chore to manage a full fledged faction in both Underdeep and this game, but I'd love to try and play a lone monster.

I could totally do that. What were you thinking for a monster? Were you wanting something intelligent you could transition into a full fledged faction or mini-faction, or a full on monster? Or even an adventuring party?

Probably going to keep it as a single creature without minions, although I'd like it to be intelligent so that it could interact with other player characters.

From the PM's that I've been getting...I'm going to be cancelling this game. The majority of players seem interested not in playing a faction, but playing an individual, and I forgot how badly I suck at maps. :P That doesn't mean it's dead forever, just that I'm stopping it as an RP RTS until I can figure out a better system for handling this game. Thanks for the understanding, and I hope I have a new version of Forbidden Arts up soon!

Fair enough, though that makes me sad.  It's a really cool idea, and I'm sure it'll evolve in interesting directions!

I'm agreed with Steerpike - I'm disappointed to hear this but I'm sure you'll take it somewhere wonderful in time.

As a thought (and I'm very inexperienced with PhB games so I don't know if this has been tried before) could a game in this style and ruleset not work on a character-based rather than army/faction-based scale with relatively few adjustments?

I will, even though this game is cancelled, still post up the spells/factions I was pondering - if nothing else, I figure Steerpike may find stuff he'd like to steal for Underdeep. :)

And Hippopotamus, I considered that, I'm just not sure how to make that best work. When Forbidden Arts does get back up and running, assuming I don't decide in the end to actually make it an RP RTS, it will probably be a version of Steerpike's system adapted to character rules...very similar to the relationship between dnd 3.5 and the dnd mini-combat game in how the rules work. :)

I'm curious to see what new units you come up with!  With your permission I'd definitely be interested in possible material to pilfer.

Pilfer away - you made the system, and I had every intention of pilfering the hell out of Underdeep units here and there anyway, so it's only fair. :P And I'd be honored for my units to appear. :)

Since I'm less worried about posting complete factions, I'm going to focus on posting units as ideas occur to me - and as I finish up what I had already written anyway. :)

Added the units for the Alienist faction as well as the details of their new spells. I wasn't subtle as to what units were inspired by what Lovecraftian races.

So I'm thinking about giving this another go.

Instead of managing a faction UD style, you would have a single resource - Mana, Energy, Spirits - and secondary resources - Gold, Metal, Bodies, Souls. The first one would be a fixed resource that refreshes every week and is used to power Spells and the second of which is used in research for new crazy things. It would be focused more on small groups than UD - your fixed resource would be needed to maintain any forces you directly control, so it would serve as a "hard cap" on how many units you can ever have. The game would be focused less on strategy and warfare and more on magical research and scheming.

Thoughts? Also, this whole revival is entirely dependent on me getting a decent map together, which is by no means guaranteed - we'll see how that goes. :P

EDIT: For those that are looking, here's the old rules thread, though the actual mechanics section is now defunct (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209826.0.html). Also, I'm gonna be a total hypocrit and make turns last 2 weeks with a 3 day break between each turn, so the pace should be slow enough to keep it from being overwhelming. I hope. The end product will also have less bookwork than Underdeep, at least in theory.

I don't know how I missed this the first time 'round, but it looks cool. I'll read through it (some point) after I update City. ^_^

Is this still alive?  I thought it had fallen by the wayside :/  I'd love to see it take flight!

Quote from: Humabout
Is this still alive?  I thought it had fallen by the wayside :/  I'd love to see it take flight!

Take flight?  Like a released bat? <3

Woo, posting!

Rael: Looking forward to finding out what you think. Don't really bother reading the actual crunchy bits, I'm not 100% sure how much of those are gonna make it in the final draft.

Hum: I'm giving it a second shot. How many players I get will really determine, I'd need probably 5 to make it viable.

Num: LOL.

I could be persuaded to join, i think.

You know I'm in :P

So I have a yes and a "Persuade me." :P Not bad for 3 hours after posting. ;)

I love these kinds of games, so I'm definitely a maybe. There's not much up, though, and I'm concerned it'll fall down again.

On the fluff side I'm not that pleased with the addition of elves and dwarves to a setting that hardly needs them, but that's a standard issue for me. I like the idea of character-centric factions, but then of course I co-run one in underdeep, so that's no surprise. I'm sensing an unhealthy overlap between the inventor and the artificer classes. (Yes, I know one uses magic and the other doesn't, but what does that *mean*? Steam contraptions are not outwardly that distinct from iron golems.) Perhaps a "tech-tree" could replace the class system, allowing "Inventors" to specialize in the engineering branch, while Artificers could have points in it but branch out to other disciplines. Just a thought.

QuoteI love these kinds of games, so I'm definitely a maybe. There's not much up, though, and I'm concerned it'll fall down again.

I can understand the concern. I'll get to work organizing my disparate and random notes and posting what I have ASAP. :) (And seriously, why the hell did I write this stuff in a notebook in the first place? *facepalm*)

QuoteOn the fluff side I'm not that pleased with the addition of elves and dwarves to a setting that hardly needs them, but that's a standard issue for me. I like the idea of character-centric factions, but then of course I co-run one in underdeep, so that's no surprise. I'm sensing an unhealthy overlap between the inventor and the artificer classes. (Yes, I know one uses magic and the other doesn't, but what does that *mean*? Steam contraptions are not outwardly that distinct from iron golems.) Perhaps a "tech-tree" could replace the class system, allowing "Inventors" to specialize in the engineering branch, while Artificers could have points in it but branch out to other disciplines. Just a thought.

I'm actually considering axing the elves and dwarves and focusing more on humans and monsters; elves and dwarves feel redundant and out of place, really.

The Character-Centric faction part of UD is part of why I love the game, so I'm glad other people agree. The good news is I'm gonna be structuring it so if you want to focus on your one uber-powerful Mad Genius, you totally can, or you can spread out for building armies.

As for the class system, I've been debating that, and a tech tree seems like a great idea. Instead of picking a class, you can level up in various tech-trees though R&D, and that's how you determine what your dude can do as opposed to "You pick this faction, you get these units." Artificer/Inventor difference would have been in the unit list, but if I'm getting rid of that...

Keep the ideas and thoughts coming! Part of why I'm posting this with so little up is to give people a chance to give me their thoughts without too much to bog them down, so it'll create a more interesting and diverse experience when it's done.

I'm still waiting to be persuaded!

Just kidding.  I'd be down for it, though I need to reread your material so far.  I remember when you first posted it, it looked really spiffy.  I recall liking the idea of more customizability with units (unless I'm conflating your game with something else).  If I had to pick the sort of faction/PC I'd play, it'll probably be a mad necromancer-type that is going all undead-demonic-constructishness on the world.  I should probably narrow that down some more...

I'm organizing my thoughts into something coherent still, which is taking longer than I expected. However, here's some of what I'm looking at:

*Research would be an important part of the game, so will have rules that make where and how you do it flexible. When researching, you say "I want to research a spell that does X" or "How to summon/create a creature with these traits" and then "I'm going to invest, of the resources I have gathered, Z." Then, after some research, you get something. The more resources you invest, the more likely you are to get exactly what you want, and you'll always manage to figure out something in the general area of what you're looking for. Also, there will be a chance to get a "EUREKA!" which provides an accidental, additional discovery.

*There will not, in fact, be pre-made unit lists or tech trees besides the basic units for each faction (a melee and a ranged.) Everything else would be done through research.

*Classes are only going to provide your starting spells, starting damage type, and starting units. Beyond that, it's all research - though it will be much easier to continue researching new things in your discipline.

*Minions will come in the style of UD mercenaries or apprentices; brand new custom units. However, there will be a basic, baseline "Hireling" category that will come in 3 flavors: Ranged, Melee, and Balanced. These are mainly going to be useful to round out your roster, since many creatures/summons will do elemental damaged.

*Elves and Dwarves do not exist in the classic DnD sense. It's possible they are out there, but are more along the lines of their mythic origins and may be found by summoning spells.

This is sounding like a wonderful bit of awesome.  I strongly encourage you to continue working on this.  I'll definitely join.

Will there be preplanned PC-NPC conflicts that we will have to deal with?  Will we make our own problems?  Is there some reason we should attack NPCs or each other?  Is there something to be gained from strife (research, resources, souls for my corpse-dragon demon construct, etc.)?

Quote from: Humabout
This is sounding like a wonderful bit of awesome.  I strongly encourage you to continue working on this.  I'll definitely join.

Awesome, glad to hear it!

QuoteWill there be preplanned PC-NPC conflicts that we will have to deal with?

I can't preplan PC conflicts - that's all up to you. NPC conflicts will totally be a thing, though a lot of it will be reactive to things the PCs do.

QuoteWill we make our own problems?

You guys are players. I would be shocked - SHOCKED - if you didn't do so. :P

QuoteIs there some reason we should attack NPCs or each other?  Is there something to be gained from strife (research, resources, souls for my corpse-dragon demon construct, etc.)?

Absolutely! Resources will be the primary thing gained from strife, as well as more holdings, status, rare books (research), and enemies!

I should mention here that I'm going to be assisting Xathan with running the game. When I have time I'll be checking the balance of the crunch, handling minutia (like running minor battles and checking resource math), and just generally helping him brainstorm and stay motivated.

If you have a question about the game which you're interested in asking over PM, please cc me, so that I can stay in the loop. ^_^

Please do CC him, he's gonna be the full on Co-GM - and I can honestly say that, the way things are going, this is going to be so much more fun for his involvement. :)

Alright, so right now I have listed as interested players Humabout, Hippo, and possibly from last time around TMG and (maybe but unlikely due to time constraints) Steerpike. Is there anyone else who's interested I've overlooked/haven't posted yet?

Still liking the game concept and interested in joining. Also still not very thrilled about simultaneously playing two games of heavy resource/unit management.

I am potentially interested depending on how this develops

@Ghostman: Well, if you play a grolhund-esqe wandering monster then that'll reduce the bookkeeping, but it may help your fears to know that resources will be simplified somewhat. Pretty much all costs will be either in wealth or in mana, and pretty much all units only use one or the other. There will be a few other resources, but they'll be minor and special. That said, I expect that the game will be fairly similar to underdeep, so if you're at your limit with one PbP strategy game, I can understand not wanting to take on another.

Quote from: Raelifin
I should mention here that I'm going to be assisting Xathan with running the game. When I have time I'll be checking the balance of the crunch, handling minutia (like running minor battles and checking resource math), and just generally helping him brainstorm and stay motivated.

If you have a question about the game which you're interested in asking over PM, please cc me, so that I can stay in the loop. ^_^

Well, now I certainly can't play.  Having the co-gm as co-conspirator would not work at all.  Best of luck to both of you though!

Quote from: NuminousWell, now I certainly can't play.  Having the co-gm as co-conspirator would not work at all.  Best of luck to both of you though!

Dude, have I mentioned *anything* about City to you? And you're not even in that one. I am fully capable of being impartial and keeping games separate. You can decide not to play because you don't want to do the work, but I think that the "I can't play a game where my (co-)GM is a personal friend who is an ally in another game" is a pretty lame excuse. :P

Also, if I didn't trust Rael 100% not to play favorites or anything shady like that, I would have said "I appreciate the offer, but no thanks." :P

I'm working on getting some more rules up. Hopefully post with some more information tonight or tomorrow. :)

Research rules added. :)

Interested!!! :D

Welcome aboard!

To let people know what's coming down the line:

Wealth Acquisition Rules (First draft update 5/23)
Combat Rules (First Draft Update 5/24)
Selecting Your "Class" (First Draft Update 5/23)
World Overview and History. (First Draft Update 5/26)

These are all first drafts because I want feedback and tweaking advise from everyone, not just my amazing Co-GM who's making this happen - also, if I found I made the deadline too short, I can post what I have and say "FIRST DRAFT" and still have met my deadline. :P

Also, thought I'd just share something to keep the wheels turning for everyone:

It is my hope that people start researching/working towards crazy stuff. I'd love for Humabout to go for the "corpse-dragon demon construct" while someone else works on creating a giant floating storm castle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/major-artifacts/cloud-castle-of-the-storm-king) while someone else desides to create their own demiplane to play god on and eventually replace the real world with; the skies the limit. Of course, there will be tons of little, hopefully cool things you'll have to research on the path to these ultimate goals, but I wanted to post it because I hope that gets people as excited about where this game could go as I am.

As for classes, this isn't the offical rules, but rather a very broad overview.

The various "classes" mentioned in the first post are going to really just set your starting point and the tone for how your research develops. You will start off with a couple summons and spells related to your "class" but can research anything. However, if a non necromancer, for example, begins researching ways to make undead it could take a variety of different forms: a primalist may create things along the lines of a Yellow Musk Zombie Creeper, an Infernomancer may bind demons into corpses as a form of possession, an inventor may wind up with Borg style minions, an Alienist may wind up with things ripped straight out of Herbert West: Reanimator, a Heresiarch could come out with enslaved souls of the "faithful," a fleshshaper could end up with necroborg: living people with dead flesh grafted to them, etc. All of these would be undead. But in addition to being different flavors in terms of apperance, all of that will inform upgrades that develop for them and future experiments. Will the actual Necromancer have the best actual undead? Of course. Could a non Necromancer create classic undead? Probably, though their specialty will likely color it somehow.

As such, there will be no predefined class lists or tech trees. Anything I can come up with in advance would be inherently too limiting. That doesn't mean there won't be a ton of stuff premade for you to play with, but I hope a limited "premade" list will help inspire future developments.

As long as I can stitch together bits of dragons, reanimate them, and fuse their undead souls with demons I have bound to my service, I will be pleased.  I am decidedly torn between three starting classes - necromancer, demonologist, and alienist, as I see myself kind of running down all of these paths to some degree or another.  I'm really glad starting class is only a starting point.  This will let me reanimate shoggoth zombies by binding vrocks to them.  Three cheers for extra madness!

Glad you're excited about this! The ways you acquire wealth are up; tomorrow, as per my self-imposed deadline (and to prove I can keep to deadlines, because it is me we're talking about) more class information will be up! At that point I'll be posting a character creation thread for people to post. the Initial class posts will be rules-light as Rael and I still hammer things out, but much more. Also, somewhere in the next few days I plan on rewriting that intro post so it's more fitting to where the game is developing as well as less obnoxiously bad to read. :P

There is a slight but nonzero chance I'll be getting world information up sooner, since that will inform character creation a great deal (I hope). ;)

So I majorly misjudged how much effort would be needed for the various classes. We'll hopefully have 3 (the Necromancer, Alienist, and Inventor) up tomorrow.

Okay, make that a necromantic demon-summoning alienist mobster.....

Quote from: Humabout
Okay, make that a necromantic demon-summoning alienist mobster.....

Hey, the mad geniuses gotta get paid.

Really epically bad day, so I apologize for the fact that the necromancer entry isn't formatted correctly and the inventor needs building descriptions still, but I promised a post today and I delivered. (I count days in terms of sleep time, not midnight-midnight) Will flesh out more tomorrow and work on getting all classes up by monday.

So far, my favorite is the alienist.  I shudder to think of the non-euclidean dagon-dragons I can infest the oceans and rivers with!

I cannot wait to see what you come up with! There will be a character thread once all the classes are finished.

Also, got descriptions added to Inventor rooms, and formatted Necromancer properly. More to come over next couple days!

All classes are posted. If you want to play a herisarch, it'll be a re flavored infernomancer, and an artificer will be a re flavored inventor.

Please let us know if you want to play something that's not covered by one of the classes. Remember that the way the research system works, you'll be tailoring your faction to your specific desires, so the classes should cover most cases.

Xathan, you should put more spacing and/or spoiler tags in the rules thread. It's obnoxious to have to try and find where one class starts and the other ends right now.

Fixed the spaceing, and I'll probably give each a full post once stats are up

Quick Question - are we allowed to rename/re-skin the basic creatures for our factions so they fit with our Genius better? No effect on stats, of course - largely just for the appearance of the thing.

Absolutely: pure fluff Reskins are encouraged.

 setting overview updated. (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209826.msg221204.html#msg221204)

Some npc organizations added.

Working off the assumption that my PC will be a solitary monster without minions and lair, here's an attempt to sketch something of a concept for it:

* A shapeshifter that infiltrates (fringes of) human society by masquerading as seemingly ordinary people or as domestic animals, using these guises to get close to it's prey and kill them in the dark of night

* It's true form resembles a slimy mass of protoplasmic fluid, riddled with randomly generating and degenerating appendages, eyes, mouths, etc.

* Devours it's victims by absorbing their bodies into itself, consuming not only their flesh but also much of their memories and knowledge in the process

* Once it has fully absorbed and digested a creature, it can convincingly imitate it's form, at least in terms of physical abilities and appearance -- thus each new victim adds to the repertoire of possible shapes it can assume

* It may have been created by a particularly ingenious/insane fleshshaper, in an experiment gone horribly right

Character posted!

Also, nice Ghostman!

Making that an insane fleshshaper gone right would be simple: you'd be able to 'research' by devouring. I'm moving today and tomorrow, so I'll be limited, but wanted to say I like it.

@Ghostman: Reminds me of http://www.kongregate.com/games/zeebarf/the-visitor (http://www.kongregate.com/games/zeebarf/the-visitor)

Ghostman: I'll get a write up for your character's fluff-crunch, which is what I'm calling those stat blocks as they are now, friday at latest.

Everyone: The characters look great so far, I'm loving the group that's assembling. I've been crazy busy with the move, but I'll have more free time to get some more stuff up after tonight's shift. If you're still interested in playing but haven't posted a character yet, go ahead and get 'em up!

We're still accepting characters over here! I'm working on a write-up for Ghostman's stats, been a crazy couple of days.

Combat rules up! Major thanks to Raelfin for all his hard work here!

Movement and similar rules up as well! Again, huge thanks to Raelfin! I'm going to re-link the character creation thread as well if anyone else is interested in joining, get those characters rollin' in!

Character Creation (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209905.msg223473.html#msg223473)

The combat rules are cut off mid-post. Also, I think you should amend the Attacking and Dealing Damage section.
Right now there's a line that says:
"Both of these numbers would be further scaled by how solidly the infantry hit their targets (see attack roll, above) and then rounded up."
It should probably say:
"Both of these numbers would be further scaled by how solidly the infantry hit their targets (see attack roll, above) and then rounded up after the damage from other units is added."

Fixed! :) And yeah, that clarification makes much more sense. In the tests I had been doing, I had been rounding and then adding, which does slightly change numbers.

It's tricky doing this from a phone, but I'm going to try and find a bluetooth keyboard. If I do, I'll do a test battle between some basic units with stats  modified from Underdeep and post up how it goes rolling it out by hand.

Yay fog of war!  You make me happy, Xathan!

I thought you might like that, Humabout. :)

Or did YOU make me happy?  I don't know, but I AM happy!

So how are you guys planning on handling communications?  An idea I had at one time was to give everything a move speed (communication for runners/riders/ravens; trade for caravans and shit; etc.), but that might get hairy to track.

Artists will have full knowledge of the state of their units each turn and communications with other players will be instantaneous (probably magical in nature; have to talk to Xathan about that). Anything else is overly complex/un-fun, in my view.

Resources, unlike in underdeep, will have a physical location. Trade thus takes more time the more distant the parties are, and it makes theft and piracy more viable. Certain roads, rivers, and coastal hexes will be trade routes, on which the move speed of caravans/trade units is greatly boosted.

(Xathan, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.)

Will communication be unlimited?

I like trade being slower.  More logistical stuff opens up more strategic opportunity.  Is there upkeep?  If so, how does that interact with resources being at a specific location?

Probably unlimited communication, but we haven't talked about it explicitly. (IIRC we're both not huge fans of the underdeep limits)

There is upkeep, though it is simplified. >90% of units will have either wealth or mana as their only upkeep cost. Mana does not need to be transported, which reduces logistics issues for a lot of units (particularly for necromancers and primalists who will have fewer human minions than others; inverse is true for fleshshapers). Armies will carry wealth with them which they burn to pay upkeep as they travel. If you solidly win a fight against such an army you'll be rewarded with the loot they had. Caravans can restock an army's war chest while they're out in the field, making it more viable to move out without several turn's worth of upkeep in hand, but at the risk of having your supply-lines intercepted. Additionally, armies can loot foes and areas that they are moving through to restock on wealth. (If your wealth is running low, pillaging a nearby town can be an effective way to prevent your minions from deserting.)

Interesting.  That's going to open up a lot of options.

So if communications are unlimited, are we restricted to communicating only via the game thread, or is any form acceptable?  Basically, can I talk and conspire with people in IRC, AIM, email, phone, etc.?  Do I have to post the contents of our conversations?  I like that things are unlimited; I think reducing the amount of stuff I have to type in my orders will keep players from getting bogged down with dozens of messages and updates and such in the forum.

Exactly right. Since we're going for longer turns, everyone's a genius, and were adding some complexity on other ways, getting rid of communication limits seemed like a good idea

You can communicate through any medium you like, though communication not in the thread should still  be in character and needs to be sent to me (ill handle sending it to Rael). This is so we know what's going on and can answer any questions as well as, if orders get confusing, hopefully clear up your intent in those cases. :)

Sounds spiffy!  When do we get a map?  I wanna start looking for a nice starting location.

For that matter, are you doing starting locations like in UD where once the first couple people declare theirs, the rest are kind of meh?  Or are you going more meta and making sure each person gets something that's not total garbage?  Or somewhere inbetween?

Also, on Fog of War, will there be a way to research creatures/contractions/Cyclopean horrors that have a larger visual radius?  Are there advantages to being on high terrain or trudging through thick forests?

Quote from: Humabout
Also, on Fog of War, will there be a way to research creatures/contractions/Cyclopean horrors that have a larger visual radius?  Are there advantages to being on high terrain or trudging through thick forests?

Research basically lets you do anything. Larger vision radius is in the subset of anything.

I hadn't thought about terrain's impact on vision! A silly oversight. My guess is that mountains will give +1 vision to units on them, while forests, jungles and marshes will reduce vision by one space. (So you can see units on the edge of a forest, but not if they're more than one hex in.) Hills, grassland, desert, water, and city will all probably have no change to vision. I'll have to talk to Xathan about it, tho.

While we are on Fog of War....another question!

I don't know what sort of time scale a turn will represent, so this may be a moot point, but how would weather affect vision?  Incredibly clear, dry air (IRL) makes longer vision easier, assuming the horizon isn't an issue (jumping from a plane two and a half miles up, I've seen islands over 60 miles away pretty clearly, though obviously not in detail), and bad weather should royally mess up vision (e.g., a blizzard, fog, rain, haze, sandstorm, etc.).  Of course, if turn length is more than a day or two, this probably doesn't matter unless the weather lingers....

Note:  Remind me to research establishing a permanent cyclonic blizzard with a several-hex eye centered on my lair.
Note:  Remind me to research a giant burrowing creature with a exit portal in its gullet linked to a portal in my lair.

Quote from: Humabout
Sounds spiffy!  When do we get a map?  I wanna start looking for a nice starting location.

I'll hopefully have a crude hex map ready by the end of the week at the latest, my goal being to have one by wednesday night/thursday morning. I have an old version of Campaign Cartographer 3 I can hopefully find soon which will make this whole process much easier.

QuoteFor that matter, are you doing starting locations like in UD where once the first couple people declare theirs, the rest are kind of meh?  Or are you going more meta and making sure each person gets something that's not total garbage?  Or somewhere inbetween?

It does make it a bit more complicated as far as what makes a "good" starting location - with no hard defined pathways you must take, there are a lot more variables. Do you pick a wilderness location for your starting lair to avoid difficulties with patrols to be better isolated? Do you instead pick a location along or near a roadway for easy travel to other areas? Do you pick a location near a city to go for early strong economy, or further out to avoid early reprisals? Do you pick a location in rough terrain to slow down opposing armies, or one on easier terrain to allow your armies faster movement?  Do you go closer to the center cities for their better wealth at higher risk, or further out to avoid danger early on with plans to creep in?

Quote from: Humabout
While we are on Fog of War....another question!

I don't know what sort of time scale a turn will represent, so this may be a moot point, but how would weather affect vision?  Incredibly clear, dry air (IRL) makes longer vision easier, assuming the horizon isn't an issue (jumping from a plane two and a half miles up, I've seen islands over 60 miles away pretty clearly, though obviously not in detail), and bad weather should royally mess up vision (e.g., a blizzard, fog, rain, haze, sandstorm, etc.).  Of course, if turn length is more than a day or two, this probably doesn't matter unless the weather lingers....

Right now a turn is probably going to be a week or two. Persistent bad weather should absolutely ruin vision; probably reduce it to one hex same as forest and such, because over the course of several days there will be enough of a break in the weather to keep it from completely ruining your vision.

QuoteNote:  Remind me to research establishing a permanent cyclonic blizzard with a several-hex eye centered on my lair.
Note:  Remind me to research a giant burrowing creature with a exit portal in its gullet linked to a portal in my lair.

That's the spirit! Over the course of researching those you'll gradually get things that build towards those goals; so the first path you might get "control weather 1" which lets you manipulate the weather in a single hex at first, for example. A permanent blizzard that covers several hexes would likely have a mana cost, so you might also end up getting the ability to build a mana battery that would provide for mana upkeep at that particular lair - high enough to cover the eventual cost of your doom defense storm.

The lack of pathways does certainly help alleviate bad-spawn-syndrome.  I think I'd love to find a nice spot on a plateau or up a mountain in the cold - more remote with good vision of the surrounding area and difficult to approach.  And then I can begin delving into the secrets of angles and the space between dimensions, and the somniforous whispers of the glorious gods whose blessing is sweet a anodyne to lull me into lethargic oblivion and away from the horrors of reality!  I must bring peaceful rest to the world, so they may taste of the sopoforic nectar of the Ubiquitous One!  I must open the portal and restore the world to its antediluvian glory!

That sounds awesome, Humabout!

Which reminds me - players, if you could start adding some ideas of things you may want to work on in future turns to your initial post (in a spoiler block, of course), so I can start pondering research, that'd be greatly appreciated. :)

Thanks, Xathan!  I have updated my original post with a wishlist.  I'll add to it periodically as things strike my fancy.  I may end up putting some pretty weird things in there, so beware!

Psychic sapient blueberry muffins of doom?!  I'm sure they'll be useful for something!  Maybe dessert!

Xathan, please amend the rules to grant troops that are voluntarily withdrawing (not fleeing from attrition) during the maneuver step a +4 defense.

Additionally, please change the line in the retreating section:
"An army may choose to retreat from a battlefield rather than fight to the death. This is treated the same as if all units (free-willed or not) flee from a failed morale roll, except that all attacks of opportunity suffer a -4 accuracy to hit the retreating units."
to
"An army may choose to retreat from a battlefield rather than fight to the death. This is treated the same as if all units (free-willed or not) flee from a failed morale roll, except that they gain a +4 defense against attacks of opportunity when leaving the front lines just as if they were withdrawing."

And change the following paragraph from

QuoteWhen an army (or the remnants of an army) retreats, they attempt to move away from their foes on the map. If their enemies want to (and are not engaged by a third party), they can pursue the defeated army. Pursuers only catch fleeting units if they have a higher speed stat. If they do catch them, another battle is initiated (and the retreating troops must wait a full round before fleeing). Up to one battle per hex traveled can occur in this fashion. If an army is out of moves, they cannot retreat, and any losses from attrition become prisoners of war.

to

QuoteWhen an army retreats from combat they begin to move away from their foes on the map. If their enemies want to (and are not engaged by a third party), they can pursue the defeated army. Whenever both armies are simultaneously in a new hex they enter another battle. Up to one battle per hex traveled can occur in this fashion. If the movement phase ends with both armies in the same hex, if the pursuers have 2 or more movement points remaining, they enter a final battle wherein the defenders are too fatigued to flee, and can only surrender.

You also have a /quote tag at the end of the combat post.

Changes will be made soon as I'm back on a real pc. :)

EDIT: And fixed!

This is my "showing interest but I have no idea what I'm going to play" post.

I'm looking at playing an Inventor of some kind :)

Showing my possible interest since UD has ended (and rejoining chosen at this late point doesn't seem feasible).

As you know, I'm working on my Destroyer Fleshwarper.

That makes 9 players! I'm going to have to suggest we cap it at that, lest we take on too much work. Xathan can disagree with me here, of course.

My advice is to cap it.  If the game shapes up anything like Underdeep, even with 2 GMs 9 players would be a pretty full plate.

I've added my PC fluff to the character creation thread, although not any starting information.

I am going to agree that we should cap it where it is; if you wanted to play but didn't get in right now, please PM me (I know of at least one person who had expressed interest early on but hadn't posted, so I'm not sure if they lost interest or if they were interested but weren't logged in.) If you are interested in playing a monster, as Ghostman is doing, I think we can accomidate you, as well as if you want to play a "Wandering Mage" that doesn't have summons, lairs or minions, just so many spells.

I just want to say, seeing it all laid out like this, I am delightfully excited in how much interest this game is generating! If you're interested, don't want to play a monster or a wandering mage, but didn't make the cap, again, please let me know, I'll try to get you in once a couple turns have passed and we have a better idea of the kind of workload the game will require.

Now, I have heard people tell me that they are completely stuck on what to play - Superbright mentioned in IRC that the problem FA has is too many choices. If you need help figuring that out, feel free to shoot me a PM to bounce ideas off me or let me know what you're thinking. However, keep in mind that the flexibility, while it can be intimidating, is also going to be a blessing - if you don't like the way your stuff is playing out, feel free to hole up and fortify for a few turns, research new stuff, and then try that on for size.

Raelfin is hard at work on unit stats right now while I'm hammering out the map - I'm hoping to have the Map in a postable, if not fully finished, form by tonight. Thank you all for your support!

By the way, for anyone who is loving the mechanics, total thanks to Raelfin there, since mechanical development has so far pretty much been: rael: would you like this? me: yes, OF how about we do this? Rael: yes, or what about that? Me: sounds good. Raelfin: alright, BAM, here it is. Me: that is awesome. Forbidden arts would not been anywhere near as interesting or sound mechanically without him, and wanted to make sure he was properly credited for all his amazing work, which has also freed me up to focus on fluff/event planning, which I think everyone will benefit from. :)

Also, if anyone knows of a good fantasy name generator, please let me know, because I'm going to have dozens of towns and NPCs to name since I intend on making each town/village an actual place, not just a thing you can milk for wealth (because the latter would be the sane, rational option, and this way ensures I'll get to drive myself pleasantly mad).

http://www.rinkworks.com/namegen/ (http://www.rinkworks.com/namegen/)

Quote from: Xathan
I'm hammering out the map - I'm hoping to have the Map in a postable, if not fully finished, form by tonight. Thank you all for your support!

I will mash my F5 key in further support!

I've added my character to the creation thread. The name is definitely subject to change between now and whenever the game starts.

Love the character, Superbright!

Preliminary, roadless, riverless map is up! Also, for your viewing pleasure, here are some sample towns:

[spoiler=Sample towns]Kaltas (XX, YY) Large town, Mayor is Mosor Endelmen (M). Notable features include the Headquarters of the Falcon Knights, run by High Lady Commander Andraea Longwoods (F), who is rumored to hide a dark secret in the nearby town of [NEARBYSVILLE]

Aughust (XX, YY) Port, Mayor is Adrhin Skydes (F). Rumors hold that a particular family with a strangely fishy look, the Grobuns (Mixed), are more than the drunken louts they appear to be.

Greenold (XX, YY) Trading town, no Mayor, run by village council. Rumors holds a longstand fued exists between a pair of hedge wizards, Mirandae Redfield (F) and Edwith DeCoi (M).

Oror Field (XX, YY) Farming town, Mayor Jozef Balzell (M). Rumors spread by Cerith Mosowor (F), cleric of the Lumiferous Seven, claim Jozef Balzell is keeping the Lumiferous Chapel closed deliberately for the past 50 years.

Runwall (XX, YY) Military Fort, Commander Ejun Worir (M). Rumors hold that Grol Kapaa (M), a popular figure in Runwall, is the most powerful battlecaster in the empire; no one can claim to have faced him and live.

Calek Hollow (XX, YY) Small town, Lady Zardi Synsell (F). Rumors hold that Xyn Synsell (M), father of the Lady Synsell, has been governing the town in his daughter's place - she has not been seen in public in 10 years.

Erh Falor (XX, YY) Trade City, run by merchants guild. Rumors hold that a mysterious figured named only Bix (?) runs the thieves' guild - known as the Sewage Stewards - here and in in the nearby cities of [CLOSETOWN, NEARWOODS, PROXITOWN, and ADJACENTBURG] - among others.

The Naleche Morass (XX, YY) Swamp town, Mayor Dursilla Lindraen (F). Mayor Lindraen is rumored to be over two hundred years old, despite looking barely twenty, and it is rumored that the secret to her immortality is hidden in her home.

Welthon's Folly (XX, YY) Large City but sparsely populated. No official government, city is in a constant state of gang warfare. Rumors hold that Welthon Naleche's (M) death curse haunts the town, and that the wealth he loved more than his daughter can still be found here.

Dancing Dragon (XX, YY) Small layover, dominated by Inn overlooking the lake. Rumor holds that the matron of the Dancing Dragon Inn, Rebeki Black (F), is a madam and mother of half the prostitutes in the Empire.

Goldsbane Reach (XX, YY) Fortress built over old gold mine, Commanded by  Radold the Grim. Rumors surrounding the place is that the Fortress is less intended to keep intruders out and more intended to keep whatever what was unearthed from the delving for gold trapped within the depths.

Shaeksville (XX, YY) Small ranching town, led by Goodman Cheon Darmnal (M). Rumor has begun to spread that two-headed cattle have been born here that quickly die and decompose explosively, leading to imperial investigation.

Oughalt (XX, YY) Coal mining town, lead by Lady Ranene Desuka (F). Lady Desuka is from a family of mages and, while she has no aptitude herself, she is rumored to have a vast cache of magic items her family horded in their hayday.

Ildpolenth (XX, YY) Trade town, Led by Rarabo Endoz (M). Rumors hold that despite the lucrative buisness the town does, the Endozes are constantly broke, in part due to a curse that hangs over the family well.

Shywore (XX, YY) Militarized town, led by Commander Phyran Adcer-Warvtur (M) of the Lumiferous Battle Clerics. Noted for housing the Grand Ossiary, a mockery of the Chapels of the Luminferous Seven made entirely of human bones. It is rumored the town's non-military population has not changed in number in over sixty years.

Athwor's Reach (XX, YY) Layover on trade routes, led by Captain Anorm Peurr (F). It is rumored that Captain Peurr takes something that every caravan that passes through, or that someone in his employ does, but no merchant has ever been able to produce proof of any missing goods, and carvan's rumored to be "robbed" by the Captain are never waylaid by bandits.  

Ildskelor (XX, YY) Impoverished town, led by Snal Chasanoff (M). The inhabitants of Ildskelor rarely see trade, and are rumored to having resorted to a unique form of cannibalism to remain fed. The town is protected by a wall of thick, queerly pale leather, lending credence to this theory.

Bloiaver's Grasp (XX, YY) Small town sprung up on the site of the final battle of the Unification War, led by former Sargent Ingem Oughalt (M). Bloiaver's Grasp is rumored to be filled with loot pilfered from the dead, but none of that wealth has ever left the town in trade.[/spoiler]

These will all be expanded upon later, typos will be fixed, and details will be added, but I thought I'd show some of what I was thinking along these lines.

EDIT: ALSO! Added stats for some basic mercenaries that people can hire.

From here on out, whenever I make a change to a post, there will be in the bottom of the post a "Changelog" to show what changed so those who are wondering what rules were altered will be able to find it. The PbP main gamethread will be reorganized at some point soon to make it an easier read, once we're further along in development.

Added my monster to the thread. May need to talk to Xathan/Raelifin about how to run him. It's inspired by a mixture of the langoliers and the snarl from OotS and the idea is that an alienist tried to summon it and end the world but only half managed it so all it can do is poke through the fabric of reality, sending tentacles into the material realm to spread chaos and destruction.

Nomadic: I love it. I also haven't the foggiest how to work that mechanically: will have to talk to Raelfin after I've taken time to ponder.

Also, why'd you change the crazy text to something I can pronounce?

Quote from: Xathan
Nomadic: I love it. I also haven't the foggiest how to work that mechanically: will have to talk to Raelfin after I've taken time to ponder.

Also, why'd you change the crazy text to something I can pronounce?

The crazy text was screwing up a few people's displays so I removed it.

I changed the city icon because they were too hard for me to distinguish from towns. Rivers are either medium (which can be forded) or major (which require a ferry). The black lines are roads. When a road crosses a river there is assumed to be a bridge. If a bridge is destroyed the entire road section will be removed.

Latitude is broken down into three major sections: North, Middle, and South. Within each latitude section there are roughly 17 rows (South is smaller). Every other row is shaded to help determine coordinate. Longitude is similarly broken down into West, Center, and East. Columns within a longitude section are denoted by letter. Some spaces are marked with their coordinates for convenience.

West and East to from A to Q, while Center only goes to P. To denote the coordinates of a hex please list latitude and then longitude (with or without a space).
The capital is at S7WM, for instance.

[spoiler=Map](http://raelifin.com/files/pics/aelithia.png)[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Smaller Version](http://raelifin.com/files/pics/aelithiaSmall.png)[/spoiler]

Thanks a ton Rael! And now, everyone, feel free to start picking starting locations! I'll move those over to the main thread ASAP.

Where's the snowy wintery bits?  And the map key?  I need more info before picking my remote layer!

I don't know exactly where there's snow, but we had talked about having snow modify existing terrain rather than be a terrain type in itself. IIRC heavy snow increases the movement cost of all land terrain types by 1. Then there are blizzards which can further increase move costs, cause unit loss due to attrition and exposure, limit visibility, and leave a trail of heavy snow in their wake. Again, you'll have to talk to Xathan about what climates are present in what parts of the map. I'm guessing that seasons will impact things further.

There's a map key (at least regarding terrain) in the PbP thread.

Additionally, I believe there are portals which connect distant parts of the map. I don't know where they are, but I suspect that one is in the city at N12WQ.

Quote from: Raelifin
I don't know exactly where there's snow, but we had talked about having snow modify existing terrain rather than be a terrain type in itself. IIRC heavy snow increases the movement cost of all land terrain types by 1. Then there are blizzards which can further increase move costs, cause unit loss due to attrition and exposure, limit visibility, and leave a trail of heavy snow in their wake. Again, you'll have to talk to Xathan about what climates are present in what parts of the map. I'm guessing that seasons will impact things further.

That's exactly right. Climate is fairly evenly temperate across the board, slightly warmer in the south than the north, but weather will happen naturally over the course of the game, not be static. The area for the entire map is small enough where there isn't a huge difference depending on where you are. If the game expands to the points where new maps across the sea emerge, then new climates will arise.

QuoteAdditionally, I believe there are portals which connect distant parts of the map. I don't know where they are, but I suspect that one is in the city at N12WQ.

Portals exist within cities, towns, and ruins and are not labeled on the map - they are found through exploration (as are ruins as a whole, which also do not appear on the map, but will be common enough to be found through exploration). The good news here is the Empire knows only slightly more about portal locations than you all do, so you don't have to worry about armies teleporting halfway across the map early on - they only know of one pair, part of which is, in fact, at N12WQ. :)

Now I have to figure out if I guessed that correctly or if Xathan made it canon to support my guess... ;)

Bwahahaha! I'll never tell!

Quote from: Xathan
That's exactly right. Climate is fairly evenly temperate across the board, slightly warmer in the south than the north, but weather will happen naturally over the course of the game, not be static. The area for the entire map is small enough where there isn't a huge difference depending on where you are. If the game expands to the points where new maps across the sea emerge, then new climates will arise.

Also, is this map final?  I don't want to pick a start location without knowing what i'm getting into.

[EDIT]
What kind of terrain is N7WI?  What kind of terrain is N6WI?  Why are these striped like that?

The key would be very nice if it included sample pictures and the associated movement penalties (or just put the sample picture in the section that describes how that terrain works.

[Second EDIT]
What can we expect in terms of unit Speed?  "Whatever you research" is so vague as to make any sense of scale on that map meaningless.  What is the Speed of a typical foot soldier?  What is the Speed of light cavalry?  Heavy cavalry?  Personally, I'd like to be around a week from the nearest town, maybe two weeks, but I can't pick a spot when I don't know what to expect.  :/

[Third EDIT]
Character fluff updated.

Hey, I'm going to take this opportunity to actually address some general map concerns, including ones raised in your post and ones others have raised in PM. Humabout, some of your specific questions I'll answer in a PM, which will make sense once you get that PM. :P

Anyway, here's a general map concern and address. (C&A)

I can't tell deep rivers from shallow ones
It actually is kind of tricky, I admit, especially on the smaller map, but any change I've looked at would easily make the problem "I can't tell rivers from roads". When I have a bit of free time, I'm going to try to go through every hex a river crosses and label it deep or shallow, but there is a trick that should help: on the large version of the map, the deep rivers have a more visible #0467BC; border, while the shallow rivers do not.

The Terrain is hard to Read
Once I get to my home PC tonight I'll try to make a map key that uses the actual icons, but for now I'll provide a hex that has a terrain feature so it's easy to reference:

N5WE: Grassland (Movement 3)
N5WI: Hills (Movement 4)
N15WC: Light Forest (Movement 4)
L17WE: Dense Forest (Movement 5)
N13WG: Mountain (Movement 5)
M17CP: Swamp (Movement 5)

I hope that helps clear that up. Also, please remember that movement speed represents the speed you need to enter a region (assuming I understood that correctly; Raelfin, have I been doing that wrong?); a mountain adjacent to grassland would require 3 movement to exit onto the grassland, but 5 movement to enter.

As for Rivers and Roads, if the colors are hard to tell apart which I can understand, just check to see if it connects directly to a city or town or not - if it does, it's a road, if not, a river. Also, if you're wondering about flow, if you zoom in rivers do have arrows that show which direction the river is flowing - however, as a good rule of thumb which I believe is always accurate, rivers start in high elevation and flow down to a nearby body of water, because I had Raelfin draw rivers after explaining I don't know how they flow realistically, and I have to appreciate him not going "Ah duuuurrrr" when I realized what was going on. ;)

How do I know how defensible my location is?
This one, by design, you can only do so much about. A location with your back to water prevents non-naval attacks from that direction, but also locks in your forces from flight. A location in the mountains slows down attacking troops considerably, but also slows your ability to leave to respond or retreat into your lair. A location deep in the woods has the same downside. A location near a town makes wealth easier to obtain, but discovery more likely. A location in the grasslands is going to allow for equal movement speed out and in, leaving you somewhat vulnerable to cavalry.

That being said, I am not going to set out to screw anyone over. So long as you're not directly in the Empire's main sphere of influence (the Southwest corner, southern half of middlewest, and western half of central south) any defense against you is going to be slow to mount, and the Empire is bound by the same movement speed you are, so even if they depart the week you attack and are able to take roads the entire way, most towns and cities outside the empire's main sphere of influence is a least a month from the full force of defense. In addition, the outlying towns often called "Dark Artist!" any time they wanted imperial support, so they often won't leave immediately in any great force, instead a sending small force to investigate to make sure it's not another cry of wolf.

Finally, the way attacking Lairs will work (which is being developed) will deliberately make it unappealing to attack another Dark Artist's rival early in the game - not just because of difficulty, but because the primary reward for raiding another person's lair will be their research, and attacking early in the game really just nets  you another area you have to worry about defending when your resources are limited.

Could you explain scale and movement speed?
For good examples of basic movement speed or basic, I'd look at the mercenary units that are located in the post above the map. Dark Artists will be able to research units with higher speeds, of course (one of your advantages over the Empire), but starting units for the most part will be about the same speed or slightly faster. A couple exceptions exist - the Mindbreaker, for example, starts with ectoplasmic storms which are flying units so treat everything but mountains as movement 2 - but they are going to be fairly fragile and need the considerably slower ectoplasmic walls to screen for them to do more than harass/hit and run.

A hex corresponds, roughly, to 5 square miles, which if you think about it in real-world terms is a hell of a long distance for a pre-combustion-engine society. That also gives you an idea of the scale of the map, which is roughly the size of some Midwestern US states or some western European countries.

The map is kind of bland/square, why?

This is a function of a couple things. For one, I am not a cartographer, never have been. You should have seen some of the early drafts of the map I made, they were hideously awkward. The "blandness" is to keep thing easier to read - given how many questions I'm already getting about what tiles are what, imagine if I had thrown in scrublands, deserts, badlands, and other strange terrain!

As for the squarness, I did some to minimize that, but it's again a bit of a meta decision: I wanted to give the maximum amount of landscape for players to wander and explore and expand, which meant making the map a bit awkward geographically for clarity's sake. I have insane ambitions of adding whole new maps that are reachable by sea-travel at some point, and those will be a bit less clunky looking as I practice my cartography. :)

What's the deal with those roads that go to nowhere?

Those are roads that are either under construction or have been abandoned and left to ruin. If you're not sure which it is - any time one of those roads branches off a city that has no other roads connecting it, it's an abandoned road (which is often a good indication of the direction of ruins), if the city has other roads connecting it, it's a road under construction. Keep in mind new construction can begin: if, for sample, the city at S1EH connects eventually to S7EI, then the road at S7EI will begin extending outwards again (unless someone has already claimed a lair blocking that road.)

So Cities will always be tougher than towns, right?

Not always. A town with a road connecting it directly the capitol city will be a tough nut to crack, while an isolated city like N3E1 may be ready to burst like a ripe tomato. Scouting will reveal more and spare you some difficulties in accidentally attacking a very well defended city, though bad luck does happen. That being said, it bears repeating I am not out to screw anyone, and rather promote more fun.


If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask! I'll be back on IRC tonight from 12:30am CST - ~2 or 3 CST, around some tomorrow morning and late evening, and then it gets harder to predict because I am a slave to my schedule - if you'd like to PM me, please do so as well!

This helps a lot.  Thank you, Xathan!

Another question:  If it takes 5 speed to enter a hex, and your unit only has 4 speed, what happens?  Can it enter the hex in two turns or is it unable to enter the hex at all?

Quote from: Humabout
This helps a lot.  Thank you, Xathan!

Another question:  If it takes 5 speed to enter a hex, and your unit only has 4 speed, what happens?  Can it enter the hex in two turns or is it unable to enter the hex at all?

I'll have to double check with Rael, but as I understand it it takes them 2 weeks: they make 4 progress the week they start moving, and enter at the beginning of the next week with 3 move remaining.

That makes sense.  Do cavalry incur any penalties for rough terrain or is it easy for them to cruise through mountains/swamps/etc?

When it comes to speed, no additional penalties, but terrain will likely provide penalties and bonuses within rounds to particular unit types.

Hey xathan, when do you want to get together to discuss my monster?

Quote from: Nomadic
Hey xathan, when do you want to get together to discuss my monster?

Would you be around in about 6.5 hours? :P

Quote from: Xathan

Quote from: Nomadic
Hey xathan, when do you want to get together to discuss my monster?

Would you be around in about 6.5 hours? :P

Yes I will. If you want to get on IRC then I'll stick around.

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Xathan

Quote from: Nomadic
Hey xathan, when do you want to get together to discuss my monster?

Would you be around in about 6.5 hours? :P

Yes I will. If you want to get on IRC then I'll stick around.

Cool, I'll hop on as soon as I get home from work - I'll try and pm you if I'm running late.

Quote from: XathanI can't tell deep rivers from shallow ones

Another trick, though I of course recommend looking at the big map, is that rivers almost never cross through the middle of a hex while roads almost always do. To say another way, rivers are near hex borders, roads are in the center of hexes.

Also keep in mind that when a road crosses a river it is irrelevant whether it's deep or not. Bridges make the cost a flat 2.

Quote from: XathanAlso, please remember that movement speed represents the speed you need to enter a region (assuming I understood that correctly; Raelfin, have I been doing that wrong?); a mountain adjacent to grassland would require 3 movement to exit onto the grassland, but 5 movement to enter.

Exactly right.

Quote from: Xathana good rule of thumb which I believe is always accurate, rivers start in high elevation and flow down to a nearby body of water

This is universal. Yes.

Quote from: XathanFinally, the way attacking Lairs will work (which is being developed) will deliberately make it unappealing to attack another Dark Artist's rival early in the game - not just because of difficulty, but because the primary reward for raiding another person's lair will be their research, and attacking early in the game really just nets  you another area you have to worry about defending when your resources are limited.

It's also much easier to defend a lair than, say, a town. All the classes have defenses that are really strong (still mechanically under development) and a decently developed lair will be able to repel a sizable force with ease.

Quote from: XathanA hex corresponds, roughly, to 5 square miles, which if you think about it in real-world terms is a hell of a long distance for a pre-combustion-engine society. That also gives you an idea of the scale of the map, which is roughly the size of some Midwestern US states or some western European countries.

Nooooooo. You mean 5 miles in (side->side) diameter!! 5 square miles means a little under 2 miles in diameter (because they're hexes). Maths!

Quote from: Xathan

Quote from: Humabout
Another question:  If it takes 5 speed to enter a hex, and your unit only has 4 speed, what happens?  Can it enter the hex in two turns or is it unable to enter the hex at all?

I'll have to double check with Rael, but as I understand it it takes them 2 weeks: they make 4 progress the week they start moving, and enter at the beginning of the next week with 3 move remaining.

Each turn has 3 movement phases! The speed of a unit is how many movement points it gets *per phase*! Thus a unit with 4 speed can move through 3 forest hexes per turn!

That said, Xathan is mostly right. It can take multiple phases or even multiple turns to move between hexes. When units move they store up "progress" towards entering a new hex. When they reach their goal they move. Progress is saved across phases and turns. See the movement rules in the gameplay thread for details.

QuoteNooooooo. You mean 5 miles in (side->side) diameter!! 5 square miles means a little under 2 miles in diameter (because they're hexes). Maths!

This is why I have you to do maths: see what happens when I try?! I make an unholy mess of things.

Okay, I think I'm getting a handle on how this will work.  I suppose one last movement-related question:  Will it be possible to research an ability to traverse a particular terrain type at a faster speed than normal (e.g., mountainwalk lets me treat mountains as roads, but other terrain takes the normal amount of speed to cross)?  I'm not 100% certain this would be worth while, but if it's cheaper than an overall Speed boost, I could see the utility early on when it comes to getting around the local area until you can research outright fast units.

[EDIT]
I have tentatively chosen a start location that, if I did it right, is smack in the middle of the marsh.  From what you've said, I think I understand that this is pretty remote and away from the empire's sphere of influence?

Yes, you can get things like swampwalk. And it's mechanically different than simply having a high speed. Movement points during a move phase are assigned simultaneously, so units with more move will get to move at the end by themselves. Thus units with swampwalk or whatever will be able to move through swamps *before* other units during any given move phase, even if they have enough move points to go the same total distance.
So, for example, let's say you have a swamp beast that has two move speed but treats swamp as roads and there are some normal cavalry in an adjacent swamp hex. Even though the cavalry have more speed overall, the beast will be able to move and engage them before they have the chance to leave the hex.
(This same logic applies to flying units, which essentially have "everythingwalk".)

Primalist units start with boosts to movement through woods.


Anyone who starts with their lairs in the marsh (off the road) will be relatively safe.

Quote from: Raelifin
Yes, you can get things like swampwalk. And it's mechanically different than simply having a high speed. Movement points during a move phase are assigned simultaneously, so units with more move will get to move at the end by themselves. Thus units with swampwalk or whatever will be able to move through swamps *before* other units during any given move phase, even if they have enough move points to go the same total distance.
So, for example, let's say you have a swamp beast that has two move speed but treats swamp as roads and there are some normal cavalry in an adjacent swamp hex. Even though the cavalry have more speed overall, the beast will be able to move and engage them before they have the chance to leave the hex.
(This same logic applies to flying units, which essentially have "everythingwalk".)

Also, "BLANKwalk" will be much, much easier/cheaper to research than flight or speed boosts, especially when it's useful in terrain as rare as swamplands.

QuoteAnyone who starts with their lairs in the marsh (off the road) will be relatively safe.

Given the starting location you've chosen Hum, you're going to be pretty safe from the empire or the nearby cities. Keep in mind that most anyone moving through the marsh will likely stick to the road, so if you're within 2 hexes of the road your odds of getting spotted go up dramatically but it does give you quicker access to the towns. That particular road (as with most roads that connect to port cities) will occasionally have large shipments of goods crossing them - such shipments will be well guarded, but full of goodies. Those would be the biggest threat to you early on, but it's very unlikely their guards would leave the road for ANY reason.

The only real downside to your location is there is that the roadway connects the marsh to the capitol city, so when the empire does finally believe you actually exist and are a threat they will have a shorter response time to the marsh. The UPSIDE, however, is the marsh is located in Old Drakan, so they will be slower to actually believe you're really out there and attempt to take you down. (Net result: the Empire will end up responding about as quickly as it would to anyone else, it'll just leave later but arrive slightly quicker)

There is that, but as long as they don't decide to wipe me out immediately, I'm cool with that.  I'll probably be pretty nice at first, anyway.  Gotta keep the monsters from killing off the people so they can be saved by eternal sleep, ya know?  That and dead men don't pay tolls.

So, I'm working on cities right now, and figured I'd share some information that's coming up as I do so that I find vaguely interesting:

There are a total of 77 established settlements on the map at this time, not counting lairs. Of those 77 settlements, 1 is a capitol, 25 are cities, and 51 are towns. That means that there is almost a perfect 2:1 ratio of towns to cities, which seems a bit high on the city side - more towns may spring up as the game progresses.

Also, at my current rate of about 10 minutes per settlement, I should be able to have the remaining 59 settlements done enough in 9 hours and 50 minutes of uinterrupted work time. This means I will not have this ready by tonight as I had originally hoped.

If we assume the average population of a town is ~250, the average population of a city is ~1500, and the population of the capitol is ~5000, (Those numbers a rough but accurate estimates) that means that the total population that lives in established settlements on the continent is, prior the game's beginning, ~55,250 civilians.

Towns will, on average, have ~10 military personel guarding them, counting the Watch. Cities will, on average, have ~40 military personel guarding them, again counting the Watch. The Capitol has ~150 military personel guarding it. There are, roughly, about ~300 military personel on various patrols. That means the Empire's total military strength is about ~1,960 personel, which brings the total population to ~57210. These numbers do not include mercenaries, rebel organizations, Dark Artists, hermits, brigands, and other miscelaneous humans. Including those, I estimate the population of the continent to be 60,000 individuals.

Some regions of particular note:

The Middlewest has the highest density of any region for settlements, with a total of 11 settlements.

The Southeast has the highest city density of any region with a total of 5.

Southcentral has the highest ratio of cities to towns, with 3 towns and 4 cities, yet is tied with the Northwest and Middleeast for lowest number of settlements.


Thought people might find that interesting!

It is interesting!

Quite interesting.  It appears I chose an area with a fair amount of military.  I'll have to convince them to protect me!

Those settlement population figures are super tiny. Which is probably very good from a game mechanics POV, but it seems silly to regard them as cities. I recommend that you rename towns as villages and cities as towns to make the terminology a bit more sane.

I estimate that the population density of Aelithia is roughly 1/200th that of the eastern United States. ^_^

@Ghostman: It's all about context. While it seems strange to think of 1500 people as a city from our perspective, if there are only 60k people in the world it makes a bit more sense. In the 11th century London was only about twice the size of the Aelithia capital, IIRC.

Quote from: Raelifin
Primalist units start with boosts to movement through woods.

Can I replace that with a movement boost through the tan-coloured steppelands?

Quote from: HippopotamusDundee

Quote from: Raelifin
Primalist units start with boosts to movement through woods.

Can I replace that with a movement boost through the tan-coloured steppelands?

We've been talking about what to do for you, since you're a plains primalist. Getting a movement boost through the steppelands is one option, but Xathan will be PMing you with another option which we've discussed.

This is a game and not a history lesson on the logistical concerns of cities, but I'll open this can of worms real fast and then try to jam the lid back on it.

Rael, what I think ghostman is pointing out is that the capital can completely support all of its citizens from within its own hex.  It doesn't need an empire.  It's probably nitpicking over scale as much as anything, but given those populations, the countryside could support a city in every hex and still have food left over for a Capital-scale city every four or so hexes, so long as the aren't outright hostile to agriculture (e.g., mountains, marshland, etc.). 

Personally, I don't care as long as the mechanics work and the feel is right.  The map looks good with the number and spacing of settlements.  It should be just fine, as long as the populations are numerous and willing enough to help me bring an age of peace to the world!

Hippo: you'll get that pm later tonight, since I'm at work and therefore on phone. But don't worry, your choice of landscape is not going to harm you. :)

Raelfin: hah, that puts the size in perspective, that's for sure.

Ghostman: in all honesty, calling them villages and towns would probably be more accurate, but city and town was chosen because a) towns and village differences are so minor it's hard to really get the sense of threat attacking a city presents; all cities have big stone walls around them, which no other word that makes sense really drives home. Also, the average peasant is going to have basic stats: balance mandates the smaller size.

Humabout: it's true any of the cities/town should be able to support its own basic needs, and most can. The empire exists in the interest of stability and also for needs beyond the basic: precious metals, fine woods, spices, esoteric spell components, etc. Also, the life is theocratic; spreading the faith is part of the reason it exists too. :)

Unrelated: I have finished 35 settlements if I counted right in a basic, two sentence form. If I keep up this pace for the remainder of the day, I'll definitely have the north done by the end of work, and a good portion of the middle. Will post any section I have done before I crash for the night. :D of course I'll expand them later, but I wanted to get a basic version up.

I hate to bring it up this far in xathan but depending on your process for creating towns I could probably have whipped you up a random settlement generator in a matter of minutes. I don't know what all the information you need for a settlement is though.

Also has Rael gotten back to you about our ideas we discussed on IRC the other night?

Well, you can see the entire north now: a generator to help with the other 45 cities and towns I have would be phenomenal. :) then I can flesh them out more!

And not yet, he's busy with City update for next couple of days.

For that matter, using sparkbot, you could make one yourself. :D

Quote from: sparkletwist
For that matter, using sparkbot, you could make one yourself. :D

The part of me that's a writer, not a programmer, finds the idea of handwriting out every single town and city more fun than programming my own generator, even using something as easy and sparkbot: my laziness is strangely specific. :P also, I have no idea how to make a generator random enough, so figured I'd do it longhand. And I'm having a perverse sort of fun with this method: it makes me feel like I'm world building again, which is nice. :)

I really hope this places are as interesting to everyone else as they are to me: still, it's nice to know exactly who you all will have to politic or piss off over the course of the game. :P

what sort of information would you need to have generated for each settlement?

A name, a major NPC, and an NPC ruler, ideally with some vague information regarding personalities and a rumor about the place.

Saw the settlements you've posted and gotta say, nice man!  So it looks like I live in the Middle East!  How fitting!  And next door to lich, too!

These are all really nice, man.  Keep up the great work!

I agree, I like the background.

I'll be happy to help add some more color to the Empire if you'd like, like coming up with some more NPC nobility. Calista has to have someone to have her lavish social events with.

Quote from: sparkletwistCalista has to have someone to have her lavish social events with.

Because that's not an event just begging to be crashed, Joker-style...

But no, fleshing-out background details is like my favorite part of making settings. If you need any more help, I'm totally game.

Quote from: Superbright
But no, fleshing-out background details is like my favorite part of making settings. If you need any more help, I'm totally game.

Likewise.

Hey, sorry for my absence lately, really rough few days in the personal life. I'm back now and work will resume: thank you all for the kind words about towns and cities. Speak long of which, I am taking everyone up on their offers: open submission for towns and cities is a to. What I need are rumors, interesting figures, random details to flesh out, and names. I can't promise all ideas will be used, or that they will appear in their original form, but I'll be including as much as I can and saving other details for a possible future expansion. :)

Welcome back!

Here's a rumor:  Shadow creatures with stars for eyes lurk in the deep murk of the southern forests west of the capitol.  Some say they are demons, while others whisper of lands out of time and space.

Quote from: Humabout
Welcome back!

Here's a rumor:  Shadow creatures with stars for eyes lurk in the deep murk of the southern forests west of the capitol.  Some say they are demons, while others whisper of lands out of time and space.

That's not a rumor.  Everyone has star-eyed shadowfiends in the woods around their house.  Right?

Ok ok, I'll try harder!

Trevois: Medium town grown around an enchanted spring that reputedly bestows a year of good fortune upon those that submerge themselves in it's waters. Led by Lord Dominic Mors (M). Rumour has it that the druids in the nearby woods have become embroiled in a secret war against some sort of unnatural menace they refuse to speak of.


Prynton: Small country-town known for it's cattle market. Led by a popularly elected council (current chairman is Harn "the Fox" (M), a retired adventurer) of citizens. Bandits have been plaguing the area, and it is rumoured that they are being led by a werewolf.


<A general rumour, insert whereever:> A curious local landmark, known as the "Giant's Footprint" due to it's peculiar shape, has become a site of occult activity. Cabals of hooded people have been glimpsed approaching or leaving the deppression in the dead of night, but despite best efforts none have ever been caught for questioning. All attempts to track the trail of these elusive strangers have inexplicably failed, whilst ashes and empty glass jars have been found left on the site.