Some of this stuff has been mentioned in the Underdeep Discussion thread, so I thought I'd make a thread for it.
Here are some thoughts on additional possible Underdeep content. None of this will happen for quite awhile (months and months from now), but I'd like to have an idea of what kind of stuff would you like to see in an Underdeep "expansion pack," and what form players would like that expansion to take. In particular, I'm thinking of three possible major expansions. If some of these appeal to you more than others, let me know – if you like you could even rank your choices.
If you have other thoughts on things you'd like to see, this is the place to make suggestions. In addition to these expansions, I have several other ideas I'd like to keep secret, and I'm also considering the possibility of adding new units and structures to the existing armies before adding in additional factions. If I did expand the map, the new factions found there could potentially be chosen by players whose previous factions had been eliminated, or possibly by new players.
The Northdeep
This expansion would extend the map northwards. The Underdeep in this region would consist partially of ice caverns. Rules for cold weather and snow would be added in. The following Factions would be added:
Frost Giants: A melee-heavy faction with bonuses for cold weather, Surface-only units (mammoths!), and ice magic (freezing enemies in place). Almost all units would be Large and very high in Health, and the Giants would also have some non-Giant allies (Ice Trolls and White Dragons, for example).
Deep Gnomes: A mercantile faction with many resource-producing commerce structures, the ability to go into debt or defer Upkeep costs, and trade structures to boost trading range. They would also get extra bonuses from crystals and have special merchant units which, if garrisoned in allied cities, produce additional Gold.
Vampire Lords: An Undead faction with variant units, with a Vampire general. Various Vampire-related abilities would be explored (shapeshifting, spawn-creation, blood-magic, charm abilities, etc). During certain times of the year polar night would allow Vampires to travel on the Surface with impunity, while at other times the midnight sun would render the Surface totally uninhabitable by Vampires.
Wild Dwarves: Tattooed, primitive Dwarves who don't use mines or grow food but hunt and forage very efficiently, with specialized units for both. They would be semi-nomadic, with fully moveable dungeons, and would have skilled infiltrators and magic users. They would also have herds of cave-cattle that they could shepherd around.
Eye Tyrants: Beholders – a monster faction, with extremely low numbers of highly powerful units. Eye Tyrants would have an extremely wide selection of spells and unique abilities, and almost all of their units would be able to fly. All of their units would be extremely expensive. Their Xenophobia would make forging alliances difficult, but would allow them to select new targets for their genocidal tendencies, temporarily giving them bonuses against creatures of that type.
The Southdeep
This expansion would extend the map southwards into jungle and desert terrain on the Surface. There would be a lot of ruins in the Underdeep (tomb complexes, forgotten cities, etc). Rules for sandstorms and hot weather would be added, as well as the following Factions:
Ophidians: Essentially Yuan-ti (snake-people). This faction would have a lot of poisonous units, of course, including units with specialized poisons to paralyze or otherwise debilitate enemies. They would be theocratic, and would possess the ability to enact certain Rites, powerful mega-spells with weeks-long casting times and major effects, like creating incurable plagues or destroying all of a city's food supply.
Tomb Priests: Mummies and their minions. They would be an Undead faction with variant units and an emphasis on various sorts of curses and diseases. Their dungeons would be exceptionally well-trapped. Their magic would include the ability to summon sandstorms and the like. Undead Sphinxes would be a high-tier unit, and they would also have various scorpion and scarab-based units. Their Dungeons would all be Cursed rather than Haunted (anyone attacking suffers from the Curse spell while assaulting the dungeon).
Icthyoids: Essentially Deep Ones, with some Kuo-Toa influences. They would be an aquatic Faction like the Watchers with an emphasis on metamorphosis and turning units into other units (various mutations etc), and also a somewhat "druidic," primal nature. Their elite units would be Krakens and the like. They would continue to mine the Lovecraftian vein that the Ceremorphs, Fungoids, and Watchers tap into.
Myrmidons: Ant-people/Formians – a hive-race. They would only require Food, not Gold or Metal, but would have to forage for it (Forager would be a unit type, with a special ability to boost their foraging capabilities) rather than cultivating it. Their buildings would require Labour (produced by Drones) rather than Gold/Food/Metal/Bodies. They'd specialize in very cheap swarms of units, and would all have the Vermin type.
Mouldfolk: A Fungoid variant faction based on Vegepygmies – diminutive, tribal creatures based around a huge mould, a kind of powerful but immobile and non-sentient uber-unit (kind of like a Ceremorph Overbrain). They would have many variant plant-based units (phantom fungi, thorn-dogs, shambling mounds) as well as shamanistic spellcasters; in general they would have slightly shorter lifespans and lower health but higher speed and more ranged attacks than regular Fungoids. Instead of founding new Dungeons traditionally, their central mould would bud into a new mould which could then be moved to a new location and settle.
The Eastdeep
AKA "Underdeep Oriental Adventures." Using the conceit of either a long trans-oceanic tunnel, long-range teleportation circles, specialized ships, or all of the above, this expansion would add a new section of the Underdeep on a different continent to the far east of the current one. The following Factions would be added:
Hungry Ghosts: A phantasmal Undead faction based around ghosts and spirits. They would have rules for possession and incorporeality, and many illusion and curse spells. Their units would be extremely difficult to permanently kill, returning again and again from beyond the grave unless properly exorcised – this would be mechanically represented by a "Manifestation Time," at which point the spirits would coalesce after being destroyed.
Oathsworn Goblins: This variant Goblin faction would be very honourable and ritualistic, with units like Hobgoblin Samurai, Goblin Ninjas, Goblin Rocketeers, and Goblin Warrior-Monks. These Goblins would be unable to break their word once it was given, and could swear certain Oaths (similar to Dwarven boasts) that would give them particular powers.
Ogre Magi: A melee-heavy race with many Large (Ogre, or "Oni") units, summoned creatures, and a very powerful general. Shapechanging, regeneration, invisibility, and the like would be amongst their abilities. In addition they would possess an additional resource, Luck, which could be generated through the construction of shrines and used to buff troops or perform certain spells.
Naga: A faction of powerful monsters, very few in number (like Eye Tyrants above), Naga would be more eel-like, distant relatives (and possibly ancient enemies) of the Watchers. They'd have a very wide range of spells, and would have various aquatic servants like Kappas and Dragon-Turtles. They would also have the ability to telepathically spy on other people's messages a certain number of times per week, and to implant telepathic suggestions in the minds of enemies.
Ratlings: A race of rat-people. This faction would be a horde-like race somewhat similar to Kobolds, with an emphasis on disease. They would have an economy based partially on scavenging, gaining bonuses when they delve into ruins and scrounging Gold and Metal from the corpses of the slain. They would also be shrewd merchants, with some special mercantile powers.
Thank you Steerpike for this good ideas thread. I'll repost my idea from the other thread regarding Golems.
I think the Golems would best fit the northdeep. Two ideas for the concept:
[ic]Golems: A race of sentient stone and metallic creatures, created by a long-dead archmage to guard his tomb, have awoken and risen to impose order on the chaos of the Underdeep, fulfilling strange and misinterpreted orders from long ago.
or
Archwizards: The Archwizard and the Apprentice have traveled to the Northdeep to research lore and discover ancient artifacts from long-dead empires. To aid their research's progress and to prevent external attack, they have created guardians in the caverns- golems, gargoyles, and magical traps await those who assail the Archwizards.[/ic]
Also check out the races in Small World for other inspiration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_World_%28board_game%29
[ic] Cultists (5) - Place the "Great Ancient" token on your first conquest. That region is immune and adjacent regions may be conquered at -1 token. Move the Great Ancient to one of your Cultist regions at the beginning of subsequent turns.
Drow (4) - Gain 1 bonus coin for every drow region that does not border a region containing any non-drow monster/race tokens.
Flames (4) - Place the Volcano token on any Chasm region on the board. Conquer any region adjacent to it, or adjacent to any of your Flames regions linked to it, as if that region were empty.
Gnomes (6) - During other player's turns your Gnome Regions are immune to all powers (Racial, Bonus, Relic or Place).
Iron Dwarves (7) - At turns end, gain 1 Silver Hammer for every Mine region you control. During subsequent turns, those hammers may be used as normal tokens to conquer regions, but must be taken up before scoring (leaving at least 1 active race token in each region conquered).
Kraken (5) - Kraken tokens do not have to abandon River regions at turn end.
Liches (5) - Collect 1 bonus coin from any opponent each time they conquer one of your in-decline Liches regions.
Lizardmen (7) - Pass through any River region, empty or occupied, without having to conquer the region or leaving any tokens in it.
Mudmen (5) - During redeployment, take 1 bonus Mudmen token from the tray for every Muddy region you control and redeploy them as well.
Mummies (10) - Conquer all regions at 1 more token than usual.
Ogres (5) - Conquer any region using 1 less token than usual.
Shadow Mimes (7) - When selecting the shadow mimes, you may swap their Special Power banner with any other Special power banner in the selection column.
Shrooms (5) - Collect 1 bonus coin for each Mushroom Forest region you occupy.
Spiderines (7) - Treat all regions bordering a Chasm as adjacent to yours for conquest purposes. For your first conquest, you may enter the board through any region bordering a chasm.
Will o' Wisps (6) - You may use the reinforcement die before any conquest of a region that is a mystic crystal region or adjacent to a mystic crystal region you occupy.[/ic]
Yeah, I'm a big Smallworld fan, and a bunch of the expansions :)
In fact, although the core gameplay mechanics don't resemble Smallworld's very much, I first had the idea for Underdeep when playing a combination game of Smallworld and Smallworld Underground linked together.
The Golems idea is interesting - I'll have to mull it over. They would definitely need some varied units. I like the Archwizard idea too but it might be a little "bright" for the gloomy, nefarious world of the Underdeep, which is (after all) mostly about playing ruthless villains, elder evils, marauding monsters, and the like. There are evil wizards, of course. Maybe if I darkened the Faction up a bit...
Quote from: Steerpike
The Golems idea is interesting - I'll have to mull it over. They would definitely need some varied units. I like the Archwizard idea too but it might be a little "bright" for the gloomy, nefarious world of the Underdeep, which is (after all) mostly about playing ruthless villains, elder evils, marauding monsters, and the like. There are evil wizards, of course. Maybe if I darkened the Faction up a bit...
What about taking a Frankenstinean approach - a visionary wizard experimenting with golems and animation in an attempt to create new life unexpectedly succeeds, the creature is *wrong* and lacking in some way, the creature desires a mate to relate to and forces the creator to deliver.
The difference in this story is that the wizard *does* create the mate and the creatures go on to breed and learn from the wizard the secret of further creation so you have a race of emotionless, brutally utilitarian (the grand problem of life is sorrow, the best way to eliminate it is to wipe out all other beings) and terrifyingly efficient Golems.
I don't know - 'tis merely a thought.
A Frankenstein-y faction could work, although LD's idea was to make a more metal-dependent faction.
Any thoughts more generally on expansions? Would people prefer to see me focus heavily on expanding other aspects of the game, like adding more spells, commerce options, guilds, or something else?
Again, this kind of thing is a fair way down the pipe.
Apologies if I was unclear - I meant a metal-dependent Golem faction and was referencing Frankenstein more in terms of theme and motifs than the fleshy nature of the Creature.
To be honest all of the potential expansions sound totally awesome and I'd play just about any of the new factions you've listed. Probably not very helpful, but yeah.
I think expansions pretty much have to happen, much as I love the idea of more spells, commerce options, guilds, etc. Granted, I'm very much in love with my faction so my first choice would be new units for existing factions, but as the game goes on it's going to get more crowded and expansion to add room are exciting and interesting - and the new factions sound awesome.
I'll give more detailed feedback later on, but wanted to toss that out right off the bat. :)
QuoteThe Golems idea is interesting - I'll have to mull it over. They would definitely need some varied units. I like the Archwizard idea too but it might be a little "bright" for the gloomy, nefarious world of the Underdeep, which is (after all) mostly about playing ruthless villains, elder evils, marauding monsters, and the like. There are evil wizards, of course. Maybe if I darkened the Faction up a bit...
Feel free to make them the "Dark Wizards" faction.
Here are some unit list ideas I had for both Golem-potential concepts.
Golems
1. Stone Golem (5g/5m to build; just costs gold for maint.) The basic infantry unit.
2. Iron Golem (large; lots of metal for build and maint.) The MBT of the group.
3. Homunculus (costs metal and gold to build; maint; 1 f, 1 g) This tiny creature serves a similar role to the Blunderdigs in that it can get behind enemy fortifications. Its attack/defense/health are very low, but it can mine out enemies and it has a random spell associated with each one that is created.
4. Flesh Golem (requires a body and metal to build; requires metal and food for upkeep) This golem has leadership
5. Walking Brain
6. Brain-in-a-Jar
7. Stone Gargoyle (only metal requirements)
8. Clockwork Creep (metal and gold reqs to build; metal to upkeep) (the "fast" golem that zips around on wheels and can act as an ATV)
Wizards Faction
1. Animated Suit of Armor (requires a spell ritual to be performed by a wizard before it can be created)
2. Stone Golem (basic unit)
3. Iron Golem (MBT)
4. Stone Gargoyle
5. Flesh Golem (see above)
6. Homunculus (see above)
7. Earth Elemental (essentially the mid point between Stone and Iron Golems).
8. Archwizard and Apprentice
9. Shield Guardian (essentially an upgraded Suit of Armor... this is a floating shield that has high defense and health. No attack. It acts as a screen for units).
QuoteI first had the idea for Underdeep when playing a combination game of Smallworld and Smallworld Underground linked together.
How long would that take? Smallworld games are fun and in theory can be quite quick, but I would imagine that the link would double the games' time (est. at 30 min extra per player over 2). I very much enjoy Small World; I have tales and legends and made a number of my own units/cards.
It depends on how many people are playing. I wouldn't say it takes a lot longer, as usually you play with 2 of the smaller boards joined, not the bigger ones.
Some interesting unit ideas.
I am curious which direction people would most like explored - north, south, east...?
North or South appeal to me the most.
Definitely loving the idea of the southdeep
In order of preference, I'd go East, South, North. Am I the only one who finds the appeal of an Oni faction to be really, really high? :P
The problem with any "directional" expansion is that - if the expansion occurs in the present game - not all players will be able to experience it or get anything out of it. My faction, for instance, is probably not going to have any ability to interact with a northern expansion to the map, at least not in a meaningful way. Personally, I'd prefer any expansions done in mid-game to be of the piecemeal variety - a new cave opens up here, a tunnel is discovered there, and so on.
Also, I notice that the western direction is curiously absent...
Quote from: Polycarp
The problem with any "directional" expansion is that - if the expansion occurs in the present game - not all players will be able to experience it or get anything out of it. My faction, for instance, is probably not going to have any ability to interact with a northern expansion to the map, at least not in a meaningful way. Personally, I'd prefer any expansions done in mid-game to be of the piecemeal variety - a new cave opens up here, a tunnel is discovered there, and so on.
Also, I notice that the western direction is curiously absent...
Another thing: you mentioned portals appearing for the Eastdeep. I think that might be a good way to handle any expansion to prevent people from being limited in their ability to participate.
QuoteThe problem with any "directional" expansion is that - if the expansion occurs in the present game - not all players will be able to experience it or get anything out of it. My faction, for instance, is probably not going to have any ability to interact with a northern expansion to the map, at least not in a meaningful way. Personally, I'd prefer any expansions done in mid-game to be of the piecemeal variety - a new cave opens up here, a tunnel is discovered there, and so on.
That will definitely happen too, a space on the maps permits.
QuoteAnother thing: you mentioned portals appearing for the Eastdeep. I think that might be a good way to handle any expansion to prevent people from being limited in their ability to participate.
Yeah, definitely.
For the North and Southdeep, it wouldn't just be via Surface access. Having the map extended Northwards or Southwards would involve new tunnels opening up to those locations, probably on multiple levels. Indeed, that would be the "justification" for extending the map at all.
The North is my preference. Beyond the promise of the long-forgotten ruins, I am not interested in the South. The East is okay.
Quote from: Light Dragon
...the promise of the long-forgotten ruins...
I'd love to see some kind of "plane of shadow" or "mirror world" expansion, where no new factions are introduced, but instead the map is a mirror image of the current one and in the place of various capital cities, major battle sites, or major dungeons there are ruins that correspond to the race that inhabits it in the real world. Partially because the promise of treasure in ruins really interests me, and because it would open up a whole new set of caverns for relatively little work for you, Steerpike. :) And the scramble to get to "your" ruins though portals that don't even remotely correspond to their location in the real world would really encourage people to fight. I could even see the ruins of capitol cities being inhabited by opposite versions of various faction leaders.
Speaking of which, I'd like for one region to open up inhabited by mainly good forces that are working together and really, really find us disgusting. ;) (Well, except for the Dwarves, Dwerim, and Nocae)
I can't say I really prefer any direction over any other. I like some of the concepts and dislike some of the others. I agree pretty heavily with Polycarps statement that if the new areas are based off a "side" of the map I'm basically out for North and West but have easy access to South an "East".
Quote from: Steerpike
The Northdeep
This expansion would extend the map northwards. The Underdeep in this region would consist partially of ice caverns. Rules for cold weather and snow would be added in. The following Factions would be added:
Frost Giants: A melee-heavy faction with bonuses for cold weather, Surface-only units (mammoths!), and ice magic (freezing enemies in place). Almost all units would be Large and very high in Health, and the Giants would also have some non-Giant allies (Ice Trolls and White Dragons, for example).
Deep Gnomes: A mercantile faction with many resource-producing commerce structures, the ability to go into debt or defer Upkeep costs, and trade structures to boost trading range. They would also get extra bonuses from crystals and have special merchant units which, if garrisoned in allied cities, produce additional Gold.
Vampire Lords: An Undead faction with variant units, with a Vampire general. Various Vampire-related abilities would be explored (shapeshifting, spawn-creation, blood-magic, charm abilities, etc). During certain times of the year polar night would allow Vampires to travel on the Surface with impunity, while at other times the midnight sun would render the Surface totally uninhabitable by Vampires.
Wild Dwarves: Tattooed, primitive Dwarves who don't use mines or grow food but hunt and forage very efficiently, with specialized units for both. They would be semi-nomadic, with fully moveable dungeons, and would have skilled infiltrators and magic users. They would also have herds of cave-cattle that they could shepherd around.
Eye Tyrants: Beholders – a monster faction, with extremely low numbers of highly powerful units. Eye Tyrants would have an extremely wide selection of spells and unique abilities, and almost all of their units would be able to fly. All of their units would be extremely expensive. Their Xenophobia would make forging alliances difficult, but would allow them to select new targets for their genocidal tendencies, temporarily giving them bonuses against creatures of that type.
Most of these sound really cool except the gnomes, but that's because I'm skeptical on how mercantile this game can get. I'm a little curious about a Large-sized based race and on the balance of more expensive stronger units. Wild Dwarves seem pretty similar to Orcs, just friendly. Also the Vampire mechanic with the seasonal sunlight is just badass.
Quote from: Steerpike
The Southdeep
This expansion would extend the map southwards into jungle and desert terrain on the Surface. There would be a lot of ruins in the Underdeep (tomb complexes, forgotten cities, etc). Rules for sandstorms and hot weather would be added, as well as the following Factions:
Ophidians: Essentially Yuan-ti (snake-people). This faction would have a lot of poisonous units, of course, including units with specialized poisons to paralyze or otherwise debilitate enemies. They would be theocratic, and would possess the ability to enact certain Rites, powerful mega-spells with weeks-long casting times and major effects, like creating incurable plagues or destroying all of a city's food supply.
Tomb Priests: Mummies and their minions. They would be an Undead faction with variant units and an emphasis on various sorts of curses and diseases. Their dungeons would be exceptionally well-trapped. Their magic would include the ability to summon sandstorms and the like. Undead Sphinxes would be a high-tier unit, and they would also have various scorpion and scarab-based units. Their Dungeons would all be Cursed rather than Haunted (anyone attacking suffers from the Curse spell while assaulting the dungeon).
Icthyoids: Essentially Deep Ones, with some Kuo-Toa influences. They would be an aquatic Faction like the Watchers with an emphasis on metamorphosis and turning units into other units (various mutations etc), and also a somewhat "druidic," primal nature. Their elite units would be Krakens and the like. They would continue to mine the Lovecraftian vein that the Ceremorphs, Fungoids, and Watchers tap into.
Myrmidons: Ant-people/Formians – a hive-race. They would only require Food, not Gold or Metal, but would have to forage for it (Forager would be a unit type, with a special ability to boost their foraging capabilities) rather than cultivating it. Their buildings would require Labour (produced by Drones) rather than Gold/Food/Metal/Bodies. They'd specialize in very cheap swarms of units, and would all have the Vermin type.
Mouldfolk: A Fungoid variant faction based on Vegepygmies – diminutive, tribal creatures based around a huge mould, a kind of powerful but immobile and non-sentient uber-unit (kind of like a Ceremorph Overbrain). They would have many variant plant-based units (phantom fungi, thorn-dogs, shambling mounds) as well as shamanistic spellcasters; in general they would have slightly shorter lifespans and lower health but higher speed and more ranged attacks than regular Fungoids. Instead of founding new Dungeons traditionally, their central mould would bud into a new mould which could then be moved to a new location and settle.
Myrmidons probably have the coolest concept I've seen. I like the idea of Rites, weeks long casting mega spells. The Icthyoids really do not appeal to me at all, the aquatic nature seems very very limiting, especially with how little water there is in some regions (the LD for example).
Quote from: Steerpike
The Eastdeep
AKA "Underdeep Oriental Adventures." Using the conceit of either a long trans-oceanic tunnel, long-range teleportation circles, specialized ships, or all of the above, this expansion would add a new section of the Underdeep on a different continent to the far east of the current one. The following Factions would be added:
Hungry Ghosts: A phantasmal Undead faction based around ghosts and spirits. They would have rules for possession and incorporeality, and many illusion and curse spells. Their units would be extremely difficult to permanently kill, returning again and again from beyond the grave unless properly exorcised – this would be mechanically represented by a "Manifestation Time," at which point the spirits would coalesce after being destroyed.
Oathsworn Goblins: This variant Goblin faction would be very honourable and ritualistic, with units like Hobgoblin Samurai, Goblin Ninjas, Goblin Rocketeers, and Goblin Warrior-Monks. These Goblins would be unable to break their word once it was given, and could swear certain Oaths (similar to Dwarven boasts) that would give them particular powers.
Ogre Magi: A melee-heavy race with many Large (Ogre, or "Oni") units, summoned creatures, and a very powerful general. Shapechanging, regeneration, invisibility, and the like would be amongst their abilities. In addition they would possess an additional resource, Luck, which could be generated through the construction of shrines and used to buff troops or perform certain spells.
Naga: A faction of powerful monsters, very few in number (like Eye Tyrants above), Naga would be more eel-like, distant relatives (and possibly ancient enemies) of the Watchers. They'd have a very wide range of spells, and would have various aquatic servants like Kappas and Dragon-Turtles. They would also have the ability to telepathically spy on other people's messages a certain number of times per week, and to implant telepathic suggestions in the minds of enemies.
Ratlings: A race of rat-people. This faction would be a horde-like race somewhat similar to Kobolds, with an emphasis on disease. They would have an economy based partially on scavenging, gaining bonuses when they delve into ruins and scrounging Gold and Metal from the corpses of the slain. They would also be shrewd merchants, with some special mercantile powers.
The Manifestation Time mechanic sounds super cool, but otherwise this is probably my least favorite of the three directions.
Some really excellent thoughts Llum, thanks!
A few comments-on-your-comments:
QuoteMost of these sound really cool except the gnomes, but that's because I'm skeptical on how mercantile this game can get.
This is fair enough. Mechanics I'm picturing in particular for them are gold-producing merchant units (which might also generate money if garrisoned in the dungeons of other players), a market where food and metal can be converted into gold (or vice versa), banks allowing the player to go into debt to fund big purchases, an economy built around commerce-structures (like Hall of Trade) rather than mines, breaking building payments up over the course of weeks, and stuff like that.
QuoteWild Dwarves seem pretty similar to Orcs, just friendly.
This is true to an extent, although I think they'd actually play pretty differently - Orcs are so raid dependent, whereas Wild Dwarves would be tied to their herds and to foraging/hunting. So their economy, at least, would probably feel different.
QuoteThe Icthyoids really do not appeal to me at all, the aquatic nature seems very very limiting, especially with how little water there is in some regions (the LD for example).
I would probably make the Southdeep more watery. They wouldn't be fully aquatic though - they'd be amphibious, though if they didn't make it back to water after a certain period they'd start to lose health.
Glad you like the Myrmidons!
From a purely insterst-oriented perspective, Northdeep sounds the most intriguing, but it's also the must useless to my me at present. I'd never interact with it, and frankly be annoyed that other people suddenly get lots of expansion while i'm still cornered. Southdeep would be best from a faction-location perspective to me. I don't know how you'd deal with either issue. I can say that if I get wiped out, I'd like to start over as frost giants, though.
My interest is piqued in the order of East, South, North.
<3 Oni.
I really like the Eastdeep, because at least in my personal backstory for the Watchers, Cruel Form of Truth is just the uppermost tip of the ruins of their now-submerged empire, so the ideas of a) trans-oceanic travel and b) another ancient race to either war against or ally with excites the hell out of me. The Southdeep also seems pretty cool, especially if there're more waterways to explore and expand into. Northdeep doesn't have as much to offer to my current situation, though the Deep Gnomes are pretty interesting.
Quote from: Xathan
I'd like for one region to open up inhabited by mainly good forces that are working together and really, really find us disgusting. ;)
Isn't that what the surface is?
Quote from: Ghostman
Quote from: Xathan
I'd like for one region to open up inhabited by mainly good forces that are working together and really, really find us disgusting. ;)
Isn't that what the surface is?
True; I should add "and their disgust immensely outweighs their fear, so they're more prone to attacking us." :P
A unifying force could be interesting. In that case, i really hope it's th north! That's really far from me! :p
Any other thoughts? It's actually fairly close right now in terms of preferences.
One thing I want to add as far as thoughts (until I ponder to think some more); Go with whichever you'd be most comfortable with adding and have the most solid ideas for. That'll make for the best gaming experience, IMO.
I'd like to cast my vote for incremental updates and changes. One of the advantages of a pbp game like this is the ability to roll out new rules and areas incrementally with lots of warning. For instance, want to implement ore instead of metal? Make it happen in X weeks! Want to add some north areas and factions? Roll it out slowly over the course of a couple months! Mystery and adventure are what make games like this fun! </2cp>
Fair enough. Although I don't want to tamper with anything "fundamental" (like changing metal into ore, much as that idea appeals to me) I will stick to an incremental update system and surprise you guys in terms of major expansions.
Because you asked:
[ic]The Wild Wild Westdeep
Shotgun-totin' Squirrelfolk and the Rodent Alliance
Tricksy Foxfolk of the Nine Tails and other Spirit creatures
The Great Beefalhorde, which must keep moving and grazing
Marsupivolk, with pouches... Include the KangerJumps with pouches full of poison, the voracious TasDevils, deadly Dingos, and more mysterious beasts
Large Bearfolk who move very slow but who thrive in colder climes.[/ic]
I am also fine with the metal-->ore conversion system and subsequent requirement of an extra building if we have a few weeks to prepare (3-4 weeks). I think some minor incremental shifts in rules is okay if we have 3-4 weeks to prepare for each shift; any shorter and peoples' grand plans and outlays of money can get interfered with.
Quote from: Steerpike
Fair enough. Although I don't want to tamper with anything "fundamental" (like changing metal into ore, much as that idea appeals to me) I will stick to an incremental update system and surprise you guys in terms of major expansions.
Just wanted to say I am totally cool with metal-ore conversion if given some time to prepare...but I'm biased since I have very few metal uses that are even close to critical.
Any "fundamental" change that makes the game better (or more interesting), IMO, should be implemented, so long as we have a bit of a heads up and can "pre build" some of the buildings we'd need to adapt (if applicable)
As far as incremental changes, I'd love to see some new upgrades for existing units above all else. That and slight increases to the map size and what not for new options for building would be awesome.
Also, some kind of "wild west" expansion would be awesome.
Instead of ore --> metal, I'd be more likely to introduce finery forges or blast furnaces or something for the refinement of steel, or something like that, if I decided to add resource elements.
I love your crazy western version! I SMELL A SPINOFF :P!
I kind of like how it is now, nice and simple.
As we approach what may be our first player knocked out of the game and things I hear OOC and IC suggest there are at least two, if not three, plots that involve one faction obliterating or counteri obliterating each other, I'd be much more interested seeing individual unit lists for all these factions - not the full stat block, but case of a bit more concrete functionality so we can consider new units better as we ponder options for when/if we die.
I'll work on getting those up.
I'll emphasize that unless people are totally wiped out - every unit killed, every dungeon taken - there will be possibilities of them continuing on in some form or another.
Quote from: Steerpike
I'll emphasize that unless people are totally wiped out - every unit killed, every dungeon taken - there will be possibilities of them continuing on in some form or another.
I can't speak for anyone else here, obviously, but for me, for example: if Liltul dies, then much of the fun of RPing the Exalted would be lost to me (even if I had a new Exarch by then - my enjoyment comes from the character as much as anything else) while if every dungeon of mine was taken but Liltul was safe, I'd be more interested in her taking over a new faction in some sense.
Part of this is just a weirdness in how I am. I constantly want to play new classes in DND, I play random anymore in Starcraft 2, I was a huge altaholic in World of Warcraft; if given choices, I want to try out every single one that interests me, and so many of the new factions do.
Also, it's fun to see and plan what I would do with another faction even if I'll never play it; not just typical stat theorycrafting, but also RP theorycrafting as well. :)
A preview of the Derro, a faction I am tinkering with (some players have already encountered some Derro units):
[spoiler]Starting Dungeon: Derro players must always claim their first Oubliette in the Lowerdeep.
Starting Resources: Derro aren't careful with their wealth, but they have no compunctions and stealing from the dead or the living. Derro players begin the game with 850 Gold, 100 Metal, and 150 Food.
Madness: Derro are thoroughly mad, and their deranged minds are strangely impervious to sorcerous tampering. All Derro have a +4 bonus to Defence and Morale checks to mind-influencing spells or effects, as well as Psychic attacks. They are immune to Confusion spells and effects.
Sadism: Derro take delight in acts of senseless brutality, especially against helpless victims, and they often engage in such acts before battle to "get their blood up." Derro can torture and kill any prisoners or slaves they possess to gain Attack and Morale bonuses. For every 5 units they torment and kill before a battle, they gain +1 to Attack and Morale during the battle, to a maximum of +4 Attack and Morale.
Sunlight Vulnerability: Derro have been tainted by dark magic and cannot stand the touch of sunlight. For each full week that a Derro unit spends on the Surface it loses 1 Health. It immediately recovers this lost health if it returns underground. Units that reach 0 Health due to this deterioration are destroyed completely. Regeneration and healing spells have no effect on sunlight-damage. Like Dark Elves and Duergar, they suffer double the normal Morale penalties from sunlight.
Unit list:
Derro Overlord (general)
Derro Brigand (melee infiltrator)
Derro Club-Thrower (ranged)
Derro Filcher (poor combat unit, good thieving and trap disarming)
Derro Mutant (versatile but expensive unit with a "multiattack" ability and a selection of other abilities to choose from – double-headed, poison, flyer, regeneration, climbing, or an immunity)
Gibbering Mouther (slow-moving confusion-causing unit, hard to kill; destroyed by sunlight like vampires)
Derro Screecher (sonic ranged attacker with a new ability - "deafening")
Giant Centipede (fast-moving poisonous tunneling vermin)
Derro Warlock (confusion-based caster, many spells involving madness)
Gibbering Orb (mega-unit, flying, with confusion aura; destroyed by sunlight like vampires)
Room/Defences Ideas:
- a leadership building allowing the Overlord to embark on insane and irrational quests, a nonsensical version of Dwarven boasts
- a mutation room that turns regular Derro into Derro Mutants
- buildings that produce randomized effects on garrisoned units
- Chaos Portals (one-way) that teleport a regiment to a random location on the map
- traps that produce randomized negative effects[/spoiler]
In Underdeep, Derro are Deep Gnomes who were twisted by alien magic in the Lowerdeep. Deep Gnomes are traders, tinkers, wanderers, and merchants in this world, so the Derro were originally a group of Gnomes who wandered into strange places and came back wrong.
The Derro look awesome. I'm assuming they have a slave market type building like the drow to get torture victims, since they don't have slave soldiers they can Torture?
Yeah, I would give them a slave market.
Coolness!
If you're taking request, I'd be most interested in Icthyoids, eye tyrants, and naga off the list. Thanks for indulging my curiosity either way! (I have an insane idea for a new faction if Mu bases get destroyed but Liltul survives, and those 4 factions counting Derro now make the best candidates: I'll pm you about my mad idea)
Eye Tyrants are definitely on the way. I think Icythoids are a good one too. Both of those feel like "classic" Underdark monsters.
A bit on Eye Tyrants so far. They would have very few units in terms of numbers, since most of their units would be powerful Eye Tyrants with about 40-50 Health. They would have Eyeless minions (Grimlocks, basically) for fodder. They would also have a major drawback in the form of Control and Ego scores: Elder Orbs and Overseers would generate Control, while other Eye Tyrants would have Egos, and if total Ego ever exceeds Control, your Eye Tyrants start rebelling and killing one another. They would also be isolationist, not allowing allies near their lands. However they'd get to choose races they wish to expunge, temporarily giving their units the Grudge ability against them.
Their unit list right now looks like this:
[spoiler]Eye Tyrant Elder Orb (extremely powerful general/spellcaster)
Eyeless Marauder (basic melee)
Eyeless Spear-Thrower (basic ranged)
Lesser Eye Tyrant (core unit)
Eye Tyrant Overseer (control-generator, also a leader whose presence buffs other Eye Tyrants)
Eye of Flame (big damage dealer with terror spells)
Eye of Frost (also big damage but with paralysis spells)
Crawler (bizarre verminous transport-unit that melds with Eye Tyrants to boost their speed, health, and melee damage, transforming them from slow-moving ranged/spell attackers into highly mobile melee brutes)
Eye Tyrant Observer (non-combat infiltrator)
Eyeball Tree (scary defensive mega-unit)[/spoiler]
They would be very dangerous individually, but because of their small number of units it would be difficult to spread their army out, so they'd tend to have to concentrate their power. The Control/Ego drawback would mean that they would have to be very careful about how many units they recruit and how they use those units, because the loss of too many Overseers could be disastrous.
The control ego interplay is awesome, and that unit list looks so insanely cool. Would they be able to, in spite of their isolationist tendencies, be able to maintain allies that respected their boundries, or would they have the Orc limit of only being able to maintain an alliance for X amount of time?
So long as allies respected their boundaries they could have allies indefinitely. What this means, though, is that allies can't easily come to their defense. If allied units trespass, the Eye Tyrants all go berserk and auto-attack them as if they were hostile. Granted, that only happens in regions the Tyrants have dungeons/outposts in.
Of course, they also couldn't have allies of the same race as the species they have designated for their Grudge ability. So if there are 2 Dark Elf factions, for example, and the Tyrants have marked Dark Elves for their hatred, they become hostile with both factions.
I like that way of handling it; means eye tyrants could be good allies, but inherently could not count on their allies to help defend them, which is fair given their greater power.
Yeah, I figure they'd be a very unique faction to play.
Any ideas for Icthyoid units, apart from the usual infantry/ranged/spellcaster type units that almost every faction has? They'll have Krakens as a high-tier unit, of course, but I'm not sure what else to give them. Giant frogs feel a little banal. I'm thinking maybe something akin to the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu...?
I could see for them a melee caster that could treat other units the same way Derro mutants treat themselves only with less options, some kind of ooze for their mid level tank (similar to ceremorph brain golems or dark elf war spiders), a unit with assassinate that instead of killing their target begins transforming their target into an icthoyid unit (dominate by assassination), an infiltrator that is hardly transformed that can serve as a spy/emmisary on dry land, and some über defensive unit with crazy regen while in water.
Quote from: Steerpike
Yeah, I figure they'd be a very unique faction to play.
Any ideas for Icthyoid units, apart from the usual infantry/ranged/spellcaster type units that almost every faction has? They'll have Krakens as a high-tier unit, of course, but I'm not sure what else to give them. Giant frogs feel a little banal. I'm thinking maybe something akin to the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu...?
Giant frogs are kinda meh, I'd agree. If you were going to go with an amphibian animal, I'd go with a salamander. And a star spawn unit would be awesome, IMO. Not sure if it fits the icthyoids, but then again it would give them a much needed flying unit.
Icthyoid Unit Ideas:
Two-headed quill-maned crocodiles which get two attacks a round,
Poison dart spitting frogs with fearsome (Fear inducing) deep warbles (1 speed spend),
Sea Anemones (similar to Puffball explosion suicide units for the Glow except they deflate to only 1/2 health after they explode),
porcupine-like Pufferfish, who when hit deal damage to the unit hitting them if it is a melee unit and who can attach unobtrusive to a fleeing unit (if ordered before the battle) and either (pick one) 1. deal ongoing damage; or 2. act as spies in the enemy camp;
then the alien-like unit that impregnates your units with evil creatures that hatch 1d4 weeks later and kill them. (GM would need to keep track of the 'impregnated units' and the player would have no idea who was impregnated until it happens. (Some magic spells might be able to mitigate the risk).
Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: Steerpike
Yeah, I figure they'd be a very unique faction to play.
Any ideas for Icthyoid units, apart from the usual infantry/ranged/spellcaster type units that almost every faction has? They'll have Krakens as a high-tier unit, of course, but I'm not sure what else to give them. Giant frogs feel a little banal. I'm thinking maybe something akin to the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu...?
Giant frogs are kinda meh, I'd agree. If you were going to go with an amphibian animal, I'd go with a salamander.
This was exactly what I first thought - give them something like the 7m or so long crocodile-salamander hybrids that used to be wandering around the planet back in the day :D
I'd be really interested in seeing more about the vanilla Deep Gnomes, since they make for an intriguing possibility if/when the Watchers get knocked out of the game.
Quote from: Superbright
I'd be really interested in seeing more about the vanilla Deep Gnomes, since they make for an intriguing possibility if/when the Watchers get knocked out of the game.
Seconded, in part because I'd like to see another faction that isn't gonna be trying to kill me. ^_^
Idea: Magmadepths
[ic=Magmadepths]Home of the Jabberlings and the source of the rift-migrating devastator's lair, the Magmadepths are home to few creatures and they consist only of a few discontiguous regions that are connected by the rifts- 2 regions here, one region there, the Magmadepths do not present viable options for large empires.
The Magmadepths are inhabited by : Jabberlings, Deep Gnomes, Duregar, Magmids (a race of fire elemental-like creatures), FlameRoaches, and demonic creatures that are impervious to heat. Magmadepth regions have extremely hot magma pools, which give out negative effects at double the rate of regular magma pools. Magmids, Demons, and FlameRoaches do not suffer negative effects from magma. Magmadepths contain near liquid gold and metals and mines in those regions produce almost nothing, producing only a quarter of what the mines would produce in more geologically settled regions.[/ic]
As a way to expand the map by a few regions scattered here and there in the absolute lowest depths, introducing new opportunities and new challenges.
Cool idea; I think the name "Netherdeep" might actually work slightly better with the prevailing order, but it's a good concept.
EDIT: As Llum can tell you, there are a few Magma/Fire creatures down in the magma-pool caverns where the Duergar hang out.
Quote from: Steerpike
Cool idea; I think the name "Netherdeep" might actually work slightly better with the prevailing order, but it's a good concept.
EDIT: As Llum can tell you, there are a few Magma/Fire creatures down in the magma-pool caverns where the Duergar hang out.
I'd love a Netherdeep type expansion, although I think it would be cool if some regions were instead filled with pools of acid (same effects as magma but different damage type), others filled with toxic gasses, some more watery regions, and maybe some more exotic hazardous terrain - an all magma netherdeep map expansion just seems kinda...dull.
It'd also be kinda cool if the Netherdeep wasn't a single, continuous region like the other parts of the Underdeep are; larger versions of M57, basically.
Any way you slice it, at this point what I'm looking forward to most in expansions are new map areas to explore/fight over. :)
If you do expand to a Netherdeep (or anywhere else), I'm pretty sure I'll take a serious shot at this game again - something more invested than just anther Waaagh!
Steerpike- good rename.
>>I'd love a Netherdeep type expansion, although I think it would be cool if some regions were instead filled with pools of acid (same effects as magma but different damage type), others filled with toxic gasses, some more watery regions, and maybe some more exotic hazardous terrain - an all magma netherdeep map expansion just seems kinda...dull.
Neat idea Xathan, though I don't think watery regions would really suit due to the depths- there are very few watery regions in the Lowerdeep currently. Your idea of acid and toxic gases is great. (Still, it's all up to Steerpike)
Regions that have a variety of characteristics widen the types of monsters that can be encountered as well: Acid-based creatures, anaerobic bacteria like Gelatinous Cubes.
Other race idea: Calcites- giant "fire" ants, termites, and beetles who build their structures with excreted calcium. Their buildings look like termite mound stalagmites. The termites can undermine wooden fortifications and are good tunnelers, the beetles are main battle tanks, and the ants are ranged fire-dispensers. Other units could spit acid.
>>It'd also be kinda cool if the Netherdeep wasn't a single, continuous region like the other parts of the Underdeep are; larger versions of M57, basically.
Thanks; that's exactly what I was thinking. I don't know if I explained it as well as you explain it in this sentence though :).
Quote from: Light Dragon
Steerpike- good rename.
>>I'd love a Netherdeep type expansion, although I think it would be cool if some regions were instead filled with pools of acid (same effects as magma but different damage type), others filled with toxic gasses, some more watery regions, and maybe some more exotic hazardous terrain - an all magma netherdeep map expansion just seems kinda...dull.
Neat idea Xathan, though I don't think watery regions would really suit due to the depths- there are very few watery regions in the Lowerdeep currently. Your idea of acid and toxic gases is great. (Still, it's all up to Steerpike)
My thoughts for water are big, stagnant underground pools filled with brackish water that's scalding hot or teeming with disease. :P
QuoteRegions that have a variety of characteristics widen the types of monsters that can be encountered as well: Acid-based creatures, anaerobic bacteria like Gelatinous Cubes.
Exactly! It also means you can't just pump whatever your strongest-vs-fire unit it and be good going in there.
QuoteOther race idea: Calcites- giant "fire" ants, termites, and beetles who build their structures with excreted calcium. Their buildings look like termite mound stalagmites. The termites can undermine wooden fortifications and are good tunnelers, the beetles are main battle tanks, and the ants are ranged fire-dispensers. Other units could spit acid.
While that's cool, I think the Netherdeep shouldn't be too much new faction/units and more new terrain/monsters. Maybe if there's a new NPC faction or two, but I feel it should drawn mostly from the existing ones with maybe a few new units added...just so Steerpike doesn't have to drive himself crazy(er).
Quote>>It'd also be kinda cool if the Netherdeep wasn't a single, continuous region like the other parts of the Underdeep are; larger versions of M57, basically.
Thanks; that's exactly what I was thinking. I don't know if I explained it as well as you explain it in this sentence though :).
Thanks! Good to know 4 years of getting an English degree paid off!
Also, to make the Netherdeep more interesting as a point of conflict, there could be tunnels that connect down from the middle/upperdeep and bypass intervening levels - they'd be easily labeled on the map with two down arrows. :P
Those chasms in the Lowerdeep could also lead down there.
(Hey, they should go somewhere!)
The chasms were what gave me the idea, actually. :) ..."Home of the Jabberlings", so I concur.