Rite Publishing has Heroes of the Jade Oath coming out for Pathfinder this month as a full color print book - it was released in the past for Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. There's Qin: the Warring States, another good China analog game system and setting. So there are several China based game settings out there now.
Of course, I'd agree that most oriental set games are in pseudo-Japan, and my Kaidan setting is no different. However, being half-Japanese, being around my Japanese relatives, and a long time Japanophile, I've always felt most Japanese settings were Euro-settings with a kimono and katana - they didn't feel very Japanese to me. This includes Oriental Adventures and Legend of the Five Rings, neither getting it right, IMO. I created Kaidan specifically to bring accuracy, a greater appreciation of Japanese folklore and ghostlore, a setting of Japan I'd rather play.
While Kaidan is definitely fantasy and it's own place, not really Japan, it is far more accurate to the lore, culture and history than any other "Japanese" setting.
QuoteWhile Kaidan is definitely fantasy and it's own place, not really Japan, it is far more accurate to the lore, culture and history than any other "Japanese" setting.
From what I've seen of it this is very true - and do not get me wrong for a moment, I love the crap out of what I've seen of Kaidan,
especially the fact that you made it so horror-focused. And I think you make a very good point that a lot of "Japanese" settings or Asian settings are actually a sort of European setting done up with some Asiatic ornamentation (though I'd love to hear more about specific things you think they did wrong), although I still think they are often constrained to their mythic source material.
Not to derail the thread, but your notion of accuracy/authenticity is exactly what I was talking about before. Are accuracy and authenticity necessarily a
good thing, all of the time? A lot of my favorite settings are settings that deviate from their source material in messed up and original ways. This doesn't mean the setting can't have recognizable roots and influences, but does preserving a sense of authenticity or faithfulness actually have any intrinsic value? Why is playing in an authentic setting important? And can the constraints of authenticity be detrimental?
Another example:
Jack Vance's Lyonesse/Elder Isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyonesse_Trilogy) clearly draws very strongly on Arthurian Legend, Dark Ages Europe, and Celtic myth, but it's in no sense "authentic." It adds to this mix thawed proto-human quasi-Viking fascists, a magical system that in no way resembles mythological accounts of Celtic magic, several bizarre planes of reality with no mythic cognates, various fairies and types of fairies that he just made up out of nowhere, and a generous sprinkling of anachronism. It riffs off the Arthurian stuff rather than feeling it has to be authentic in any way; the source myths are important only as sources of material, not as ends in and of themselves, if that makes sense.
Contrast that with something like Kara-Tur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Tur), which goes out of its way to create analogues between its peoples and real-world nations and is filled with clones of Confucianism and Buddhism and Triads and historical periods, and even if it's a bit mashed together there's this feeling that it's all supposed to
feel very authentic.
EDIT: In case it isn't obvious, I think Vance's world is much more interesting and enjoyable, even though it's less "authentic."
QuoteWhile Kaidan is definitely fantasy and it's own place, not really Japan, it is far more accurate to the lore, culture and history than any other "Japanese" setting.
I'm not even remotely Japanese so feel free to correct any mistakes I make, but there were a lot of elements of Legend of the Five Rings that would be totally-incongruous in a Western-style fantasy setting. The separation of skills into High and Low and penalizing of highborn characters for using ones beneath their station, the skill for carefully obfuscating the truth without actually lying, the iajutsu mechanic, the storytelling emphasis on doing what's dutiful over doing what's best, etc. Of course, that could all be exactly what you meant by ornamentation. Sorry if I've not totally derailed us.
For me, authenticity isn't everything, however, I have yet to see a "Japan" setting that even emulates authenticity. There's nothing wrong with rebuilding the oriental wheel from scratch. However, if most settings emulated authenticity and a new developed setting was trying to do it a different way - I could more easily accept breaking authenticity. For my part, I've yet to see that authentic Japan-land, so I wanted to ensure I'm creating at least one authentic Japan setting with Kaidan. I don't need to break from authenticity, since authenticity has never been previously achieved.
L5R is not a terrible setting/system, however it's a samurai game, where the lesser castes aren't a consideration worth playing - you're either a samurai, a shugengja (wrong term applied for caster members who are not samurai), and courtiers (which were also samurai in Japan, just not Rokugan). There are many other inconsistencies, but this is the biggest. Don't get me started on the region of Rokugan itself - Rokugan is China, not Japan, look at the map, how could you see it any other way.
@ Superbright - while many aspects may be incongruous with standard western settings, in my opinion, the incongrousness isn't because it's more like Japan or Asia, rather because L5R is different than western settings, not because it's more like the orient.
In standard western settings, there is no particular need to only play knights and kings, many games use all levels of society, not just the noble class. This is a continued goal with playing in Kaidan. While you certainly can play a samurai based game, where everyone in the party are samurai, Kaidan let's you play yakuza, wako pirates, furries (kitsune, henge, kappa, tengu, korobokuru) if you want.
Many Japan settings excise the caste system as an unnecessary social construct that get's in the way of play. I see it as a structure to make social interactions more realistic. Social caste has an important place in Kaidan, dealing between social castes has a place in Kaidan, parties consisting of members from multiple social castes has a place in Kaidan. I did not want any particular exclusivity with Kaidan, all social castes are welcome and playable, and expected.
For casting classes, Kaidan features onmyoji (origami wizards, the only licensed casters in Kaidan), horimyo (tattooist wizards of the Hinin caste), moso (blind bards), kannushi (shinto styled oracle/clerics) and more. The GM's Guide to Kaidan should have all available caster classes listed and described.
While a setting based on some historical analog doesn't have to be authentic, being authentic is a good direction to develop from, and the direction I chose for my development of Kaidan.
This should probably go in a new thread... as sparkletwist will probably quite rightly remind me.
QuoteFor me, authenticity isn't everything, however, I have yet to see a "Japan" setting that even emulates authenticity. There's nothing wrong with rebuilding the oriental wheel from scratch. However, if most settings emulated authenticity and a new developed setting was trying to do it a different way - I could more easily accept breaking authenticity. For my part, I've yet to see that authentic Japan-land, so I wanted to ensure I'm creating at least one authentic Japan setting with Kaidan. I don't need to break from authenticity, since authenticity has never been previously achieved.
This is very interesting. Your standards of authenticity are clearly quite high. I think by these standards it'd probably be fair to say that there's never been an authentic European setting created either, at least not for gaming; certainly Middle Earth, for example, would be in no way an authentic medieval setting, and Faerun or Oerth are nowhere even close, nor is the Warhammer World (an unholy goulash of mythology with some Renaissance trappings), Nehwon, Krynn, Discworld, or any other major setting I can think of. George R.R. Martin's Westeros is about the closest I can think of to an "authentic" medieval European world, and even that is pretty loose - a polytheistic faith with nowhere near the power of the historic church, for example, is extremely "inauthentic."
Again, I'm not criticizing Kaidan specifically - anything that includes these guys (http://www.gamer-printshop.com/kaidan/Same-bito-thumb.jpg) has got the thumbs up from me - and I'm not arguing that "authentic = bad," more that "authenticity does not mean good." What I'm interrogating is the idea that authenticity, in a fantasy game-world or other fantasy setting, has any
intrinsic worth. Setting elements, I submit, shouldn't be evaluated in terms of authenticity, but according to independent aesthetic criteria. I have a feeling you disagree and I'm curious to hear more. I get the feeling, for example, that you feel Kaidan's value is derived in part from being exclusively Japanese, and accurate with regard to Japanese folklore and myth. I would disagree - I think Kaidan is awesome because the idea of ice demons and the frigid, reanimated bodies of monks attacking a band of travelers in a secluded, creepy monastery during a snowstorm is a freaking amazing set-up for an adventure (to pick one example). My point is, that even though the creatures (the yuki-onna, oni etc) in something like Frozen Wind are "authentic" and drawn from mythology, it's not their authenticity that makes them awesome, it's the fact that they're eerie and unnerving and make great monsters.
This may come down to a matter of taste - although that doesn't mean that tastes shouldn't be explored and debated. To quote your concluding statement, why do you see authenticity as "a good direction to develop from"? I get, of course, that myth and history are amazing sources for material, but what specifically is gained by being faithful to them - and what is lost by being unfaithful? My question here is sincere - I'm open to having my mind changed.
EDIT: /me marvels at the wisdom of the forum gods.
Topic split! Consider that your reminder. :grin:
Quote from: SteerpikeI think by these standards it'd probably be fair to say that there's never been an authentic European setting created either, at least not for gaming; certainly Middle Earth, for example, would be in no way an authentic medieval setting, and Faerun or Oerth are nowhere even close, nor is the Warhammer World (an unholy goulash of mythology with some Renaissance trappings), Nehwon, Krynn, Discworld, or any other major setting I can think of. George R.R. Martin's Westeros is about the closest I can think of to an "authentic" medieval European world, and even that is pretty loose - a polytheistic faith with nowhere near the power of the historic church, for example, is extremely "inauthentic."
Very true, regarding Europe has never been authentically captured in an RPG setting. Most fantasy Euro-like settings really seemed to be based on particular Euro author's version of fantasy - Middle Earth, for example. One might argue that many settings seem to refer to pre-Christian Europe mixed with medieval concepts. I haven't really seen a one God Euro setting, thus it's definitely false to suggest that most settings are truly Euro based.
That said, most of us have some familiarity with Europe and Western History, so any deviations in a given fantasy setting can be recognized as Euro derived, despite not being true to Europe. Most can recognize the truth from the fantasy parts.
IME, most people have a very skewed view of the orient, which is certainly not helped by mass media representations of what is Asian to the western audience. IMO, most oriental settings seem to be created by 'westerners' who have no real idea of what is Asian, beyond what the movie industry thinks how it should be depicted (to me depicted in ways without authenticity involved.)
No setting can be truly authentic. However, my goal with Kaidan is to present 'much more authentic' aspects, as a means to be closer to the Asian concept. To me most Asian settings are about as Asian as a white geek wearing a samurai garb at a Con - a very close-minded idea on what it really is...
There are so many little details that make a setting more authentic, and it's those details that I am trying to include.
One of the big issues, is that, IME, the Japanese view the supernatural as 'horror' not 'wonder'. Seeing a magic castle in the clouds to a westerner is "ooh, that's so cool." whereas the standard 'easterner's' response is "oh my god, that's supernatural - that's evil." So a tengu or kappa, to a westerner, is a goofy, clunky, or just very odd supernatural creatures. The Japanese would hide under their beds if they thought they saw a tengu or kappa. It's this completely different perspective that I'm trying to capture, present and allow players to experience such that it might change there perspectives regarding Japan's oddities of the supernatural. A non-human is something to fear, at least it's that way for the Kaidanese.
Kaidan is not truly authentic, rather much, much, more authentic than it's predecessors.
I think part of it for me, is hearing statements of someone describing Japan, based on RPG experience and the description is so off. If that person were introduced to a more accurate representation, they might understand the whole of the orient in a way that is recognizeably close to the truth, at least that's a hope.
>>The Japanese would hide under their beds if they thought they saw a tengu or kappa.
Ignoring for the moment the assumption that this statement of yours is true or not true, I will challenge whether that statement adds anything to a conversation about "authenticity."
Gothic literature reflects Westerners' horror at the supernatural; although curiosity cabinets existed, many Westerners would hide if they thought they saw a threatening giant talking monster. Perhaps it is a matter of exposure; the more positive exposure to the strange- the less fear--- but for a long time, tales like Hansel and Gretel, etc. were about fear of the unknown, the evil woods. There was more horror than wonder in Grimm's Fairy Tales.
and re this: >>Seeing a magic castle in the clouds to a westerner is "ooh, that's so cool." whereas the standard 'easterner's' response is "oh my god, that's supernatural - that's evil."
Really? Westerners and western religion has long associated magic, meditation, and tarot with evil.
I cannot say I agree with the broad strokes that you are painting, or how your conclusions contribute to making something more or less "authentic". Perhaps it is more authentic for Western settings to have most people cowering in fear, but to differentiate by stating that Easterners fear the supernatural more than Westerners have traditionally feared it... does not seem correct.
I guess I'm really looking at it, as trying to alter the perceptions of players in today's world, where they aren't necessarily viewing Europe from a medieval point of view, rather skewed modern point of view.
Heroes don't hide under their beds, so PCs aren't expected to do so, however for the vast majority of common NPCs the supernatural is something to fear. It comes from different perspectives, but how many westerners look at or read about kappa and say that's cool or scary (I've never heard a westerner describe them that way.) Most look at the supernatural of Japan as peculiar, not scary. My goal with Kaidan is to describe how the locals view it, so a different response might be add in the perceptions of a PC.
And yes, especially from the point of view of the church, anything that's not 'of God' is of 'Satan'. I should know, my very Irish Catholic great grandparents were excommunicated from the church for possessing and utilizing a book of healing spells. As a strange side note on that, almost all the spells in the book (I only know a few), end with "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost." So while it's officially unchristian, according to the church, the writers of that book and it's practitioners thought it a part of their Christian beliefs.
It's just I've played many oriental based game systems and settings - Sengoku, Bushido, Oriental Adventures, L5R, and none sat well with me as emulating Japan very well. I created Kaidan to buck that trend and prove that a more authentic setting can be extraordinarily fun and enlightening.
QuoteIt's just I've played many oriental based game systems and settings - Sengoku, Bushido, Oriental Adventures, L5R, and none sat well with me as emulating Japan very well. I created Kaidan to buck that trend and prove that a more authentic setting can be extraordinarily fun and enlightening.
This is totally fair, and makes a lot of sense, based on your experiences.
QuoteOne of the big issues, is that, IME, the Japanese view the supernatural as 'horror' not 'wonder'. Seeing a magic castle in the clouds to a westerner is "ooh, that's so cool." whereas the standard 'easterner's' response is "oh my god, that's supernatural - that's evil." So a tengu or kappa, to a westerner, is a goofy, clunky, or just very odd supernatural creatures. The Japanese would hide under their beds if they thought they saw a tengu or kappa. It's this completely different perspective that I'm trying to capture, present and allow players to experience such that it might change there perspectives regarding Japan's oddities of the supernatural. A non-human is something to fear, at least it's that way for the Kaidanese.
This is really interesting. As Light Dragon points out, this used to be true of Europeans as well, and remains true in many instances (horror movies about ghosts, zombies, etc). A few centuries ago, if you saw something supernatural or whatnot, that was witchcraft, demonic, evil etc. All the old mythological creatures got diabolized, and became very much a source of horror. Post-Enlightenment, after religion has lost its sway and the supernatural is generally seen as being impossible, that reaction changes.
I'm no expert on Japan - not by a long shot - but wouldn't you say some of the sense of wonder has crept into the Japanese view of the supernatural? I'm thinking in particular here of the films of Miyazaki. Though there are moments of horror in his work - the demonic, writhing monstrosities in
Princess Mononoke, or Chihiro's parents transforming into pigs, for example - a sense of wonder suffuses his worlds, which borrow heavily from Japanese folklore. Despite the fact that objectively
My Neighbor Totoro could be deeply disturbing (strange woodland spirits watching and playing with small children...) the supernatural creatures in that film are totally benevolent and sweet. And
Spirited Away is so brimming with a sense of wonder that it overflows with it (sometimes literally), and even the unnerving No-Face eventually becomes a kindly, endearing character rather than a malevolent one. And there's not even a trace of horror in the flat-out-adorable
Ponyo, despite the presence of sea-gods, wizards, and a magical girl/fish hybrid. Admittedly the last is based more on Western sources, but filtered through a Japanese lens.
Your explanation of the motivations behind Kaidan are interesting. Indeed, it sounds like part of your goals with Kaidan are
educational. I completely agree that most people have a skewed view of the orient, although I would also add that most people have an extremely skewed view of Western history too. I've taught first year students at times who are astonishingly ignorant of European history, even in broad strokes. The question is, should setting design be oriented around accurate representation? If I set out to construct a Grecian setting and I think that Ancient Greece is misunderstood because of representations in
Xena,
300, and
Clash of the Titans, should I be worried about skewing views and authenticity?
Again, to emphasize, none of these thoughts are criticisms of Kaidan - the author is dead, as Barthes would say, and I think the setting is a thoroughly cool one, regardless of how I feel about authenticity.
EDIT: This reminds of debates over formalist vs. historicist criticism. Formalists tend to care about structure and content and "the work itself," whereas historicists tend to care more about context. Rather against the grain of many academics today, I tend to the former camp somewhat more than the latter.
All true.
Let me state it this way, most 'westerners' (I'm a westerner), have some knowledge of Europe's history, so while modern gamers don't quite view the European tradition as people from the past (medieval or otherwise), they are at least grounded on what was authentic. There's some appreciation of what was true.
While it's also true that modern Japanese don't think like pre-modern Japanese, the westerner playing an oriental game doesn't have the grounding of understanding Asia, in such a way as to appreciate the deviations of the fantasy version, like a person from Japan/orient. If they had, I might be less concerned with authenticity. If westerners were primarily learning about Asia in school rather than the movies/TV, I might have a different point of view.
So I desire to create a place that such an appreciation might be cultivated, given the details that provide that.
And yes, I'd definitely agree, that a major part of Kaidan's impetus for design is strictly for educational purposes.
While I'm not a teacher, too many high school students of today seem to totally lack an understanding of American history, let alone European history. I'm not sure why that's the case, but just look at the lack of geographical knowledge. I know supposed educated Americans that think Hawaii is in the Caribbean, aren't necessarily aware that there's 50 states!! It consternates me every time I hear such statements of ignorance on the most common knowledge.
I think I can infer the answer I was searching for: the value of authenticity within a setting lies in that setting's utility as a historical and educational tool. That's fair. I'm interested in the question of whether authenticity within a setting has value outside of didactic considerations. Ignoring didactic/educational concerns, does authenticity to a specific historical and/or mythological milieu have aesthetic value within a setting? I would posit that the answer is no. History and mythology can inspire and influence and provide a wealth of ideas, but faithfulness to them for the sake of faithfulness serves no intrinsic aesthetic purpose even if it furthers didactic goals. For those who don't value settings as educational tools, authenticity is less relevant than other factors.
Arguably, then, if a setting is designed in part to teach, it has to carefully balance its aesthetic considerations against its didactic ones, like many other works of art. An interesting opposition, and an ancient one. I don't think most people approach game settings from a didactic perspective, but that makes your point of view more intriguing.
EDIT: I would also maintain that the average westerner is not especially well-grounded in what is "authentic" in medieval Europe, though I'm willing to concede that they have even less of an idea of what is authentic in feudal Japan.
...
The only exception I can think of would be, possibly, a sense of verisimilitude in the case of a campaign actually set in a given historical period. Arguably faithfulness to the period would improve immersion while deviation would compromise immersion. Ironically, this depends on whether the players are actually already educated in the source material. It also depends on how much realism they're expecting from the game, another topic entirely, though one, I think, connected with authenticity.
Is authenticity required or needed to play an enjoyable setting for an RPG game? No. Does a setting based on some historic reference require authenticity to play? Yes, but only a modicum amount - enough to feel right, which varies from setting to setting. I would posit that one could create a complete fabricated setting without reference to the real world, historical or otherwise and it might work well as a playable setting - where authenticity is a foreign idea. So, no, authenticity by itself is not a needed aspect to portray a given world. As long as the world is believeable to the players with characters in the setting - that should be enough. No need to force feed authenticity to make it work.
Pretty much it's me, playing OA and other Japan-based settings and systems, and constantly finding myself saying - no, that's not true, nor that, nor that... why can't there be a feudal Japan setting that has some real reference when including this or that aspect from real Japan? There can be, so I'm doing so - I feel the need to educate about a cool culture and history that works well for a horror game.
Your Edit above is exactly where I'm coming from on my previous post.
One thing not previously stated, Kaidan is not high fantasy, its intended to be low and gritty, moreso than most PF settings.
That's interesting too, GP, about grimness & grittiness, and that going hand-in-hand with authenticity, perhaps. Not that I'd recommend ever presenting modules using it, but have you ever considered running Kaidan using a Pathfinder version of E6 (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29)? Or of using Pathfinder's Wound and Vigor (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/woundsAndVigor.html)variant? Or both?
Not that I wouldn't but my existing players wouldn't - they would rather play e50. I generally stop about level 15-16. Grittiness is from the setting, the treatment of the characters by the world, not from weak magic. The dangers of Kaidan can make a 16th level character shake in their boots - so most of Kaidan is setup for play between 5-16th level. We do have one 3rd level adventure, but it's more Scooby Doo, than horror - I didn't write that one.
Quote from: SPThat's interesting too, GP, about grimness & grittiness, and that going hand-in-hand with authenticity, perhaps. Not that I'd recommend ever presenting modules using it, but have you ever considered running Kaidan using a Pathfinder version of E6? Or of using Pathfinder's Wound and Vigor variant? Or both?
Ah, yes, system does creep in here, does it not?
That was always one of my problems with Kaidan, that I never though the feel matched the system. I remember the early readig, with "life being cheap', and I remember saying, "How can life be cheap when HP are plenty?" And I also had troublwe with the magic system and balance and the feeling of creepiness.
That being said, you vision came through pretty clearly, despite the other contributors, and the use of non-human player races.
So your conversation about authenticity seems to invlove theme and feel quite a bit.
One day, I might try to latch on a different game system to Kaidan, but for now, for marketing purposes and less development requirements I'll rely on Pathfinder. I have been approached by the owners of Ice Crown Enterprises, asking if they, or I could adapt Kaidan to Rolemaster or their other system. I'm none too familiar with ICE game systems, so I don't know if this is a better fit. Again, I predict at least 2 or more years dedicated to PF before I look at other possibilities.
My authenticity goals do involve theme and feel, and lots of little details.