The Campaign Builder's Guild

The new Underdeep Discussion & Interest thread, because our old one seems to have been abducted by Grolhund the Heartscrew or eaten by Ceremorphs or something.

Factions and Rules (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209782.msg219601.html#msg219601)

Character Creation Thread (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209801.msg220144.html#new)

Game Thread (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209813.msg222253.html#new)

I posted something earlier today and I don't know if people saw it in re: idea for adventuring parties/Grolhund. I can try to think what it was and repost if Steerpike and Nomadic hadn't seen and/or responded to my idea. (before the thread was lost)

also, my oil ideas (as a hazard if not a resource) and my ideas for "superblooms" or very growth-centered areas for plantraces and generally regions that are of particular BONUS to certain factions and Negatives to others to encourage the holding of certain places.

Luckily my earlier post took several days to write out so I had it saved on my computer... here it is:

Originally I was going to PM this to Steerpike but I realized that I'd already discussed it with several of you so it didn't matter to keep it private. Also I'd love further feedback and ideas on balancing/flavoring it and you can't have that if you keep everything secret.

Quote
We had a fascinating discussion on underdeep the other night regarding faction balance and abilities and something that came up was that Grolhund isn't really fulfilling his role as a problem maker and harasser. The problem is largely that he is chained to his laboratory because he is the best defense it has should it be found and because it is where he produces everything he needs in order to fulfill his purpose. His laboratory's speed essentially means that he has a range of up to 6 but that range is locked onto a central point that can only be moved 2 spaces a week (akin to a semi-mobile ball and chain). This interferes with his purpose which requires him to be highly mobile and somewhat sneaky. Furthermore the weakness of the lab practically requires wards/invisibility which as Grolhund is largely anchored to it means that he is almost untrackable and thus unkillable by the factions (not something I want since I actually want them to come after him like they did with scorra). One of the best suggestions made was to just combine Grolhund with his laboratory. It would require re-balancing him a bit but I think it would help align him better with his purpose.

Here are some of the ideas we discussed for this as well as some I thought up on my own time:

Decrease move speed to 4
This is slower than his current 6 but still fast enough to keep him highly mobile (especially with the forced march option). It helps to balance the fact that he's carrying all his resources with him.

Size changed to Colossal
Colossal:
Colossal units take up an entire regiment by themselves (count as 51 creatures for the purpose of regiment splitting). Colossal creatures also often ignore certain types of terrain (see Movement and Terrain, below). Colossal units cannot be harmed by Pit Traps of any kind.  They also never take a penalty against Flying units. Due to their immense size colossal units may not enter dungeons or outposts. They may however attack any outer defenses or any defending units not garrisoned within the keep itself (such as those manning the walls).

This change would also make removing climbing necessary.

Remove traps/defenses in favor of Grolhund himself
Grolhund would retain the trapmaker ability allowing him to scatter traps about (adding to his goal of sowing discord) but he would no longer be able to build traps/defenses onto his lab. In fact Grolhund wouldn't be siegeable at all. Rather he would function like a massive single creature with "rooms" that would allow him to produce resources in a limited amount. In a conflict he would use his attack/defense/damage and any attacker that bested them would cause his instant destruction as opposed to leaving a captured dungeon (though he would still drop all his resources). He could still "garrison" units within himself though he wouldn't provide any garrison bonus (he'd function like the severed troop transport). Traps for his trapmaking might need to be reflavored or modified to reflect all these changes.

Modify Rooms
Replace "rooms" with "attachments" which represent a similar thing while recognizing that they aren't full rooms like you'd see in a dungeon. Seeing as Grolhund is this crazy inventor it still fits his flavor to be constantly modifying things. Now however his rooms are flavored to be in line with this, representing special upgrades to his chassis. There would be a hard cap on how many attachments he could have at any time (though I'm not sure what a good number might be). Some examples of modified versions:

[ic=Attachments]
[ooc=Cage (limit 10)]
Swinging from the side of Grolhund's enormous bulk, this cage is used to store prisoners for the inventor's hideous experiments.

Cost: ???
Construction Time: 1 week
Benefit: A Cage can hold up to 2 Prisoners at a time.

Without a cage Grolhund cannot retain more than 1 prisoner at a time (additional prisoners will flee at the earliest chance).
[/ooc]
[ooc=Steam Drill]
This drill makes an effective siege weapon for dealing with immobile defenses.

Cost: ???
Construction Time: 1 week
Benefit: Grolhund gains an alternate attack mode. The steam drill has a melee attack of +2 and a damage of 20 as well as the wallcracker ability (it receives a +10 to attacks against walls). Grolhund may only make one attack per round and must choose which type of attack to make.
[/ooc]
[ooc=Clairvoyant Oculus]
A techno-magical upgrade to Grolhund's great eye permits him to scry the unseen from a distance.

Cost: ???
Construction Time: 2 weeks
Benefit: Grolhund can use the Scry spell once per week.
[/ooc]
[/ic]

Simplify resources slightly and modify upkeep
Grolhund doesn't really seem like the kind of person who cares about wealth. He's too practical for that. Instead I would drop gold and food and make his resources solely Bodies and Metal (reflecting his flesh and technology flavoring) with the additional requirement of live prisoners for his experimentation. Upkeep for units would be in bodies and/or metal as would the costs to make them in the first place. His minions don't eat or require pay but they do require repair and healing which they receive in the form of weekly skin grafts, spot welds, etc. Without upkeep his units function like undead, losing 1 hp a week until they are rejuvenated or destroyed. Additionally all of his attachments/upgrades/traps would be solely in bodies/metal as they represent Grolhund modifying his own form. This means Grolhund doesn't need farms and his drill doesn't need to collect gold (though he probably still needs a way to collect metal, perhaps using the steam drill for that as an additional ability). It also means we probably need to re-flavor things as every attachment, invention, and experimentation should reflect that melding of machine and flesh.

Change units
Mostly a flavor thing, I think all his units should be some melding of machine and flesh and most should be represented as experiments with different experiments requiring different prisoner types (a psychic ceremech for example or a upkeep free but slowly degrading robotic puffball mine). It gives me more focus and requires that I harass and attack all factions equally (also gives them more reason to hate me when it's more obvious which unit of mine used to be their drinking buddy or something). Maybe give him a single unit that he can produce without prisoners (like the jelly or perhaps a completely mechanical servitor)

Remove Unscryability (no wards attachment)
Making him unscryable would probably be too cheap and unbalanced and almost certainly would frustrate players (not good since I ultimately want Grolhund to add fun and challenge to the game, not ruin it). Probably ok to keep invisibility as well as other spells since they're temporary and defeatable.

Make him a tough target
The above means he'll almost always be visible on the map. So Grolhund needs to be tough enough that he doesn't just look like a juicy target to the factions with their big armies. People don't just freely attack visible things on the map like dungeons because they have heavy defenses, are immune to save or suck, and presumably a respectfully sized defense force. Grolhund has neither a big army as he can't (and shouldn't) produce units in the numbers the factions can nor inbuilt traps/defenses (meaning his units can't man the defenses and get free attacks in). Granted, unlike a dungeon and more like an army Grolhund can attack, however again he'll never have the numbers that a proper faction army can field. So he needs to be brought up to a level where he represents a comparable threat. For one I think he should be immune to mind-influencing effects (his warped mind is alien to anyone that tries to alter it) to protect from domination since as it stands domination is actually an insta-win against him. He might have his hp/regen buffed to make him a harder nut to crack and to reflect his massive size.

Note that none of these are demands, just requests and suggestions. The one about combining him with his dungeon is probably the most serious request I'm making as it should fix most of the problems with Grolhund, the rest is mainly just me trying to balance this change. Feedback is encouraged, resistance is futile. :P

All I had to say in the last thread is that people should let me know if I owe them any responses, and that I'm still awaiting a response from Dolmar if the Nocae intend to give me one.

Ok. I think I recall what I wrote about adventuring parties- now that I see what Nomadic had written;

I've been thinking about adventuring parties and how they could run in the game.

what about if Grolhund/the parties have the following benefits:
1. Can go past outposts if they don't end their turn in them.
2. MORE IMPORTANT. They can attack, but can choose to flee if anyone attacks them. Therefore, other factions can't attack them. Thus, they can lose troops when they personally plan an assault, but cannot lose troops due to an ambush. This power might be too powerful, since something should exist to counter the harassing parties, so perhaps 'traps' would apply against them...
3. They are invisible on the map.

HERE'S THE SIMULATOR DOWNLOAD LINK (http://raelifin.com/files/underdeep/underdeep.zip)

Quote from: Light Dragon1. Can go past outposts if they don't end their turn in them.
2. MORE IMPORTANT. They can attack, but can choose to flee if anyone attacks them. Therefore, other factions can't attack them. Thus, they can lose troops when they personally plan an assault, but cannot lose troops due to an ambush. This power might be too powerful, since something should exist to counter the harassing parties, so perhaps 'traps' would apply against them...
3. They are invisible on the map.

This would be crushingly powerful.  Ignoring #3 for a second (and it's largely redundant anyway, since they can't be attacked because of #2), this means that an adventuring party could just waltz on over to anywhere in your realm without you being able to do anything about it.  The only possible way to stop it would be to have all entrances to your realm blocked by heavily trapped outposts, and even then I doubt that every faction has a sufficient trap list to stuff an outpost full enough to kill an adventuring party, which will presumably be made up of quite powerful units.  Fungoids and Kobolds could probably manage it, since they can lay traps anywhere, but even that requires a lot of time and resources to set up.

I wouldn't have a problem with parties getting substantial bonuses to fleeing - for instance, the +5 Def when fleeing like goblins have - but if you remove absolutely all risk of being attacked, adventuring parties probably aren't going to act much like adventuring parties, who should be reasonably apprehensive about knocking around the Underdeep rather than confident that nothing in all the UD can harm them as long as they don't start the fight.

I think it's important to remember that adventuring parties are an unknown; it's presumably hard to know what they want or what their intentions are automatically.  Most factions won't really have a reason to attack them just off the bat.  Everybody knows that Saerid is on a particular mission, for instance, even if not every player might know what his exact objective is.  As a result, they don't need to be like Grolhund, whose very purpose is apparently to be a "problem maker and harasser."  Factions seem neutral to Saerid by default; factions do not seem to be neutral to Grolhund by default.  Adventuring parties, unless they are here to literally kill everything, seem likely to behave more like the former than the latter.

>>I wouldn't have a problem with parties getting substantial bonuses to fleeing - for instance, the +5 Def when fleeing like goblins have - but if you remove absolutely all risk of being attacked, adventuring parties probably aren't going to act much like adventuring parties, who should be reasonably apprehensive about knocking around the Underdeep rather than confident that nothing in all the UD can harm them as long as they don't start the fight.

I think that's more interesting though; that way the adventuring parties can go anywhere in the dungeon. Your solution of a substantial bonus to fleeing though is probably a good compromise situation- rather than make them unassailable, have it so that they need to reserve some speed to flee. Perhaps they can spend 1 Speed to "Avoid Army in Region" and 1 Speed to "Flee if Attacked" during the round.

And I think there's a distinction between a Saerid and an adventuring party- an AP is a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Thief. I would *not* suggest that anything like Saerid have these powers.

Quote from: PolycarpAdventuring parties, unless they are here to literally kill everything

Do you mean to imply there is some other kind?
We're the dungeon dwellers! Clearly we're just here to for them to kill and take our stuff. :grin:

QuoteI think that's more interesting though; that way the adventuring parties can go anywhere in the dungeon.

I suppose that's the point of our difference right there - I don't any attraction or anything interesting in letting a party "go anywhere."  All I can see here is immense frustration when a party is quite obviously gunning for some location of yours but you have to sit on your hands as they walk through your territory, able only to watch and shift garrisons around.

For me, the bottom line is this:  If I want to attack something, I should be able to do so, with absolutely no exceptions whatsoever.  Maybe I'll fail miserably, but I should still be able to do it.  Sure, some units/monsters may be exceptionally hard to find or difficult to kill, but it shouldn't be impossible to even attempt to strike at them.  Grolhund, in his current incarnation, can potentially be incredibly hard to find and pin down, but it's not impossible to do it - Nomadic and I have discussed several strategies for doing so in chat.

QuoteAnd I think there's a distinction between a Saerid and an adventuring party- an AP is a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Thief. I would *not* suggest that anything like Saerid have these powers.

I wasn't suggesting that they were mechanically similar, only "diplomatically" similar, to illustrate the point that an adventuring party, unlike Grolhund, would probably not be on everyone's automatic hit list.  For that reason, parties probably don't have to have as many defensive countermeasures and means of evading detection as Grolhund.

Last week of classes this term- running late on orders this week. Might have to put them up tomorrow.

Not to worry, deadline has been extended!

But I want to read what happens already!!!! :p

My orders are up, though I may take advantage of the deadline extension still. ^_^

To the peeps who are waiting for a reply from me: it's been a crazy week, so I may not respond to you until next week. Since it's the glow and watchers, IIRC, I think Dolmar's too depressed over Lothe's death to be sure how to respond to fungus and nightmare fish at the moment. We'll go with that.

Also, still waiting for a response from the Legion kobolds, but no rush. ~_^

EDIT: Also, I know I owe the cleversmarts a response too. Didn't forget that, srsly.

Since this thread is the one that is usually on the top, and since this is the first page...

Factions and Rules (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209782.msg219601.html#msg219601)

Character Creation Thread (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209801.msg220144.html#new)

Game Thread (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209813.msg222253.html#new)

Thanks xathan, hope steerpike doesn't mind but I've edited your links into the first post.

Thanks Nomadic!

Responses to messages I had not responded to yet up, and additional Scry info as well.  If I have missed anything let me know and I'll endeavor to get it in before the update!

Last minute response to dr Robertson up

Oh man. "Deepwest" is such an awesome term.

I've actually realized I made a bit of an error with some previous orders. I'll go ahead and edit it, it shouldn't affect anyone else (just a build order error).

Quote from: Raelifin
Oh man. "Deepwest" is such an awesome term.

Glad you like!

By the way, sent you a postscript. :P

Dolmar- will the Cleversmarts have a response this week to our message, perhaps?

Sorry about the delay, folks. No more classes for a month, though.

Late responses are up for Dolmar and Robertson, but didn't affect my actions this week much. More setting up things for the future.

Yay! I was wondering whether you'd respond. :D

Update is up.  Let me know about any amendments that need making!

Regarding Ceremorph Thrall pens that produce bodies... are these dead bodies or live ones? Also, what race are these thrall bodies, generally? Are these creations that ever had a mind of their own, or are they born and made to be thralls?

...you're on my list, Kobold. :P

Oh, and I can tell you thrall pens do NOT produce any kind of elf body.

Steerpike, do you want to be actually present at parleys, or is it not necessary if we just send you the log?

Oh, I reserved two posts this week if that's alright - have a feeling I may end up going over my character limit this turn. :P

Quote from: Xathan
Oh, and I can tell you thrall pens do NOT produce any kind of elf body.

Maybe yours don't. We at the Cruel Form of Truth take utmost pride in providing the most diverse selection of thrall-stock of anywhere in the Underdeep, from bugbear to troglodyte.

Cruel Form of Truth: bringing you the finest in fleshwarped servitor-forms since the dark aeons when your race's pitiful gods had yet to be born.

Any chance I could get a rush delivery? And perhaps some kind of payment plan? What kind of interest rates do beings from before the dawn of time offer? I bet it's reasonable. They seem totally reasonable.

Various trade amendments have been made  :).

Thanks, Steerpike.

Has anyone found a need for metal yet? We've just had it keep piling up as a side-effect of our mines. Just curious from a game-design standpoint.

If you get a telepathic message and you aren't telepathic yourself, can you respond telepathically, or do you have to send via normal modes?
Does mindlink let you parley?

EDIT: And OMG the Cleversmarts are such a weird blend of detestable and adorable.

Quote from: RaelifinHas anyone found a need for metal yet? We've just had it keep piling up as a side-effect of our mines. Just curious from a game-design standpoint.

Yes, but it's a rather unusual one, and I can't share :O

QuoteIf you get a telepathic message and you aren't telepathic yourself, can you respond telepathically, or do you have to send via normal modes?
Does mindlink let you parley?

I am also interested in this.  It seems like mindlink, being an unlimited amount of messages, is functionally the same as parley, so I don't see why not.

QuoteHas anyone found a need for metal yet? We've just had it keep piling up as a side-effect of our mines. Just curious from a game-design standpoint.

Definitely there have been major uses of metal, and even gold-for-metal trades.

Undead have fewer uses for it with a couple of major (and awesome) exceptions: Wights and Death Knights.

I think metal is probably going to be the weirdest resource - phenomenally vital for some builds, almost worthless in others.  It'll produce some weird economic effects, I think.

QuoteIf you get a telepathic message and you aren't telepathic yourself, can you respond telepathically, or do you have to send via normal modes?
Does mindlink let you parley?

You can reply telepathically.  Mindlink does effectively allow for parley, and/or unlimited messages; really whatever players prefer is fine by me.  Small request: I would generally prefer messages to parleys with mindlink because I edit parley logs, which is time-consuming.  But if you catch someone online, go for it, just send me the log later :).

Are M60 and M64 Mushroom resource regions?

Posted a message for Llitul.

The Glow apologizes for its lack of flavor text last week and hopes to make up for it by providing a double dose this week.  The Glow likes flavor, though it's not that keen on text.

The Glow are very cool. It's a pity that they're so distant from the Undead.

QuoteYou can reply telepathically.  Mindlink does effectively allow for parley, and/or unlimited messages; really whatever players prefer is fine by me.  Small request: I would generally prefer messages to parleys with mindlink because I edit parley logs, which is time-consuming.  But if you catch someone online, go for it, just send me the log late

Would you prefer if we took the time to edit the logs ourselves if we had it?

EDIT: Also, is it alright to hammer out details of things OOC with people we're parleying/mindlinking with and then putting that in messages as opposed to a full parley or typical messages? Just to speed the process for the times we are one on one. :)

If you want to edit logs yourself, please feel free, but also don't feel obliged; I am happy to edit them when parleys do occur.

As for OOC chatter, I think that's inevitable and fun.  So long as I get to see all the relevant info exchanged between characters in some form (parley, messages), great.  I'd generally encourage roleplaying whenever possible, but of course there will be times when people talk about the game on chat and there's nothing wrong with that.

EDIT: Light Dragon, those regions aren't plentiful enough in mushrooms to justify a bonus (or provide cover for fungoids to infiltrate).  Thanks for checking!

Gonna be sending out lots of messages tonight, just waiting for confirmation on something. However, if you current have in your ToDo list to message me, I will let you send the first message - lemme know if you're one of those people but don't care if I initiate contact. :P

Posted messages to:
- Arquenciel
- Llitul
- Käfer

I'm making an amendment to trade rules: if you have units close enough to make a parley, you can exchange resources mid-turn.  I've unofficially allowed this in a couple of instances before, and I think it makes sense.

EDIT: If you could still make a record of the trade in your Trade tab, that would be great, separating regular trades and mid-turn trades with italic text like this:

Trades

+20 Metal to Dwarves

Mid-Week Trades

+20 Gold to Undead

That would be awesome!

Also, sparkletwist, I will make sure to get the Succbi rules officially posted at some point this week, in case you were wondering about that.

Raelifin, any chance you could repost your diagrams of messages sent/relationships in the Underdeep- that was a very interesting project. :)

(As of last-turn)
(http://i.imgur.com/7LgYjCr.png)
K = Kirr
A = Abject
U = Undead
C = Ceremorphs
Z = Duergar
W = Watchers
G = Glow
S = Shee-ra
D = Dwerim
N = Nocae

Thank you!

Proof I shouldn't be allowed to get bored:

[ic]

Epic Rap Battles of Underdeep!

Llitul

Vs

Sheeeee-Raaaa

BEGIN!


Llitul:

Look at this little lizard worm

Thinking she could survive a turn

Soon as I turn my mind upon you you'll do a switch

Go from being all high and mighty to my little bitch.

Your brain's pathetic, it's barely there.

I'd get more food from Dolmar's hair.

So go ahead rap, I'll hear you squeaking

Or step up and face me and accept your beating.

Shee-Ra:

Nastydream think you can outsmart me?

I'm the Queen of the Cleversmarts, don't you see?

Everywhere you look you see my land

while you can't even rule your own left hand.

You're crazy, you're loony, madder than a gnome

If I wasn't busy sacking it I'd say just go home.

Llitul:
Listen to you 'Nastydreams' what is this?

You talk like a thrall who I've given a lisp.

I'm a Ceremorph, you're just a light snack

You think you hold the underdeep on your back?

You dance on my strings, I let you think you're smart.

But this battle was over before the start.

You're doing my work and serving my aims.

Every move you make just furthers my gains.

Shee-Ra:

Oh so boastful you so crazy,

each week I grow while you get hazy

Every faction gives me gold to appease me

All your mines were lost and you claim victory?

I'm the Mistress of All the Underdeep Hides

You're a little nastydream no one will abide.

And as you're broken but before you can plea

Remember when your boyfriend came down he turned right to me.

　

Who won?

Who's next?

YOU DECIDE!

EPIC RAP BATTLES OF UNDERDEEP!!!![/ic]

THAT WAS AMAZING  :jawdrop:

EDIT: Did you write that solo, or was it a collaborative effort?

Solo, my apologies to LD. The phone system is down at work.

Glad you liked!

*coughs into silence*

erm, right. Messages to Seven Sisters and Kirr up. :)

Xathan- that was quite impressive. :)

Raelifin- Does that excellent chart now include the parleys as a more powerful attractor-force?

The Glow has posted messages for Saerid and the Legio I Draco.

It does not. If I get bored sometime soon I'll add parleys and all the interactions since I collected the data.

Quote from: Light Dragon
Xathan- that was quite impressive. :)

Glad you liked it, especially since I stole Shee-Ra for it. :) (BTW, I actually think you won that battle) If people are enjoying/amused by them, I'll take requests to do more. :P

EDIT:

Added messages for Grolhund and the Despot.

Dalashinn and Abject tag-teaming v. Dolmar may be an interesting one, Xathan.

Quote from: Light Dragon
Dalashinn and Abject tag-teaming v. Dolmar may be an interesting one, Xathan.

Yes. This.

Hmm. Tag teaming would be trickier, but I'll try and manage it. :) If not, one of those two vs Dolmar should be fun to write.

Messages/replies to Llitul, Watchers, Kirr, and the Overbrain posted.

Responses to CleverSmarts and Succubi are up as well.

Gloomsong, Response to Watchers, Saerid and Abject have messages from Cleversmarts.

Responses to Light Dragon and Xathan from Grolhund up

New Simulator Version (http://raelifin.com/files/underdeep/underdeep.zip)
In this update I added Double-Headed and the Curse spell.

In an example fight between 1 Wight and 1 Lich vs. 1 Ettin, here's the difference between using the lich's base attack and having the lich cast curse:

QuoteUndead (With Curse) won 4.5% of the fights.      (Obtained an average of 0.07 bodies/win.)
Ettin won 95.5% of the fights.                   (Obtained an average of 2.0 bodies/win.)

QuoteUndead (Base Attack) won 2.5% of the fights.     (Obtained an average of 0.44 bodies/win.)
Ettin won 97.4% of the fights.                   (Obtained an average of 2.0 bodies/win.)

As you can see, the undead have a slightly higher damage when using the base attack (reflected in the bodies/win), but a significantly lower chance of victory. Overall the Double-Headed and Curse mechanics are subtle and usually not battle-winning (though still significantly stronger than Cavalry), which is probably how they should be.

I didn't check to make sure ettins were the only Double-Headed unit. Please correct me if I missed one.

Ettins are the only double-headed unit as of now, I believe. At least, discounting mercenaries and monsters, dunno if any double-headed ones of those have popped up. Thanks a ton!

Also, there's a new message for Mister Heartscrew

Message for Cleversmart and Glow (that thing i mentioned in my message to the glow takes advantage of the thing we discussed in PM ^_^), responding to last week, up. I believe I still owe a couple other messages from last week, and intend to start new ones.

The Glow has responded to Dolmar.  Yay!

QuoteOverall the Double-Headed and Curse mechanics are subtle and usually not battle-winning (though still significantly stronger than Cavalry), which is probably how they should be.

Overall a good thing, although I think that Curse is probably most effective when cast on large blocks of low-attack troops (Goblin/Kobold infantry, Thralls, Slave Soldiers, Zombies).  Stuff with a high attack (like an Ettin) have a decent chance of doing at least medium damage even if their roll is fairly poor, while big blocks of troops can either deal massive amounts of damage or fall totally flat - for example, a beefy regiment of 50 Goblin Grunts can deal up to 150 damage, but one poor roll and all 50 can deal zip.  I'm not sure how the statistics would work but that's my intuition anyway; Curse is an anti-horde spell, not an anti-big-monster spell (Petrify, Dominate, and perhaps Hex strike me as more effective vs. big monsters).

EDIT: Man Dark Elf Summoners are like a hard counter to horde armies... Poisonous Cloud + Curse is an awesome combo vs. the big regiment block.  Throw in some Drake Riders, Swordsmen, or Hellblades with Spidersilk Armour and they are screwed.

Also, I am psyched for this week.  Already there is a FREAKING AWESOME battle that is going to be fun as hell to illustrate.

Quote from: Steerpike

QuoteOverall the Double-Headed and Curse mechanics are subtle and usually not battle-winning (though still significantly stronger than Cavalry), which is probably how they should be.

Overall a good thing, although I think that Curse is probably most effective when cast on large blocks of low-attack troops (Goblin/Kobold infantry, Thralls, Slave Soldiers, Zombies).  Stuff with a high attack (like an Ettin) have a decent chance of doing at least medium damage even if their roll is fairly poor, while big blocks of troops can either deal massive amounts of damage or fall totally flat - for example, a beefy regiment of 50 Goblin Grunts can deal up to 150 damage, but one poor roll and all 50 can deal zip.  I'm not sure how the statistics would work but that's my intuition anyway; Curse is an anti-horde spell, not an anti-big-monster spell (Petrify, Dominate, and perhaps Hex strike me as more effective vs. big monsters).

I know. That's why I put the ettin up against a wight. When facing zombies it barely does anything. I encourage others to test various situations to see when curse is most effective. Next update I'll add poisonous cloud unless anyone has any special requests.

Quote from: SteerpikeAlso, I am psyched for this week.  Already there is a FREAKING AWESOME battle that is going to be fun as hell to illustrate.

:suprised:

Replies to Llitul and Arquenciel up.

Quote from: Steerpike
EDIT: Man Dark Elf Summoners are like a hard counter to horde armies... Poisonous Cloud + Curse is an awesome combo vs. the big regiment block.

I've never actually thought about them as anti-horde units, as I've been primarily using them as Detectors and for summoning. Not that I'm complaining if they're that good at killing swarms :D

BTW, is it odd that I imagine my character's voice sounding like the narrator/advisor from Dungeon Keeper 2?

Quote from: Raelifin
I know. That's why I put the ettin up against a wight. When facing zombies it barely does anything. I encourage others to test various situations to see when curse is most effective. Next update I'll add poisonous cloud unless anyone has any special requests.

Out of curiosity, did you mean it made no difference for how the ettin did, or that curse made no difference for how the zombie did.

And I would also like to see agony, blood boil, and shield while we're looking at mass spells: I'm very curious how those work. Also would love to see single target spells like dominate or petrify, but I imagine those are trickier. :P

Response to Xathan up.

Quote from: Xathan

Quote from: Raelifin
I know. That's why I put the ettin up against a wight. When facing zombies it barely does anything. I encourage others to test various situations to see when curse is most effective. Next update I'll add poisonous cloud unless anyone has any special requests.

Out of curiosity, did you mean it made no difference for how the ettin did, or that curse made no difference for how the zombie did.

The ettin has a +8 attack, and the zombies have a 14 defense, so even when the curse hit the ettin still dealt roughly full damage. Thus it made no difference in the win rate compared to a dummy spell. (It was better to have the lich use its ranged attack.)

Quote from: XathanAnd I would also like to see agony, blood boil, and shield while we're looking at mass spells: I'm very curious how those work. Also would love to see single target spells like dominate or petrify, but I imagine those are trickier. :P

Dominate is not on my short-list, but I can add the others fairly easily (with petrify being treated as an instakill since dispell isn't in yet).

Messages to the Tiern, Dalashinn and Dolmar

Quote from: Llum
Messages to the Tiern, Dalashinn and Dolmar

No love for being Cerebuddies? :P

And message for Grolhund up. Glow message coming soon. 

I have posted replies to the Watchers and the Overbrain.

Messages to Llitul and Dalashinn added.

A few more scrying orders, response for Shee-Ra, and a message for the Overbrain are all up. Sparkletwist, I'll have your reply as soon as the scrying is finished.

Message for the Watchers, Undead, and Glow (sorry Polycarp, dunno why I could not write yours to save my life are up) are up. I think I might be too late on my request in one of those messages, which will make sense to the recipient and to Steerpike. :P

Birthday celebrations are over, starting on messages.

Any scry orders or messages I have missed so far?  I think everything is up to date at this point...

I haven't posted a scry order yet, but hopefully will do so soon.  As for messages, I sent one to Saerid, but I didn't really expect a response and I assume the lack of one is intentional.

I have posted three new messages, to Dr. Robertson, Käfer and the Child of the Glow.

I am also assuming the Overbrain's lack of reply is intentional. :)

Response to the Kirr posted, as well as a message to Despot Kafer.

Responses to The Glow, The Kirr, Prince Saerid, Lady Viarra and the Watchers

Should I assume the Duegar aren't responding? :P

Quote from: Xathan
Should I assume the Duegar aren't responding? :P

Woops completely forgot, writing a response now

Watchers- note, I'm out of letters to you this week so I couldn't respond.

Mesages up to Lliltul and various other factions

Replied to the Duergar.

Responses to Duergar and Kirr up. Need to respond to Succubi. Am I missing responses to anyone else? Still waiting to hear back from Watchers and Undead.

Added messages to Saerid and response to Succubi. :) AND, as of this edit, a couple other NPCs as well.  :yumm:

Response to Kafer up. Cleversmarts, I'm waiting for you to post what we discussed OOC IC so's I can respond. ^_^

Edit; forgot to mention there's also a response to the glow in there.

Quote from: SuperbrightSparkletwist, I'll have your reply as soon as the scrying is finished.

Don't forget about me! :D I think Steerpike said the scrying should be done.

Messages up to Kafer and Dolmar.
Edit: And now another one for Llitul, too.

I haven't, Sparkletwist. Well, I had because of things, but now I'll try to have that response to you by this evening.

And to Steerpike, my last four scrying orders are up, sorry it took me so long.

Quote from: Superbright
I haven't, Sparkletwist. Well, I had because of things, but now I'll try to have that response to you by this evening.

And to Steerpike, my last four scrying orders are up, sorry it took me so long.

Your intelligence gathering abilities are kinda insane, I'll admit to being jealous. How many scries did you have this week, if you don't mind sharing? (Totally understand if you do).

No worries Superbright, this week is always spy-week for you!

Eventually scry could become truly terrifying for me to keep up with if you achieve some critical mass of watchers, but I'll figure it out one way or another!

...I just realized with about 50 watchers, it might be easiest for you to just put in her briefing what's going on in every region that anything happens in ever. :P (I find it hard to believe that there will be more than 50 regions where people are present/doing things)

At a certain critical mass of watchers it might be easiest to just give Superbrigth permission to access certain tabs of people's Orders, or to copy/paste them!

Quote from: Steerpike
At a certain critical mass of watchers it might be easiest to just give Superbrigth permission to access certain tabs of people's Orders, or to copy/paste them!

Since scry no longer shows what's going on in "real time," copy pasting might make more sense. This also applies to Dwarves, Kobolds, and really any other faction that can train units with scry. Which gets kind of worrysome long term, the intellect disparity could become absurd - especially for those factions that don't have access to Ward. :P

Quote from: Xathan
Your intelligence gathering abilities are kinda insane, I'll admit to being jealous. How many scries did you have this week, if you don't mind sharing? (Totally understand if you do).

Upwards of ten, without augmentation of any sort. I'm debating enacting a standing "protection policy", but the limited amount of messages per turn might make bidding wars hard.

If scrying threatens to turn into a subterfuge-obliterating arms race, you could always throw in alternate uses to distract from compulsive surveillance sweeps. Which might sound a little selfish, considering my entire strategy is compulsive surveillance sweeps.

Sent you that message sparkletwist.

It might be possible to set up a (software) robot that keeps track of:
The positions of all troops
Any special aspects of troops that would be available to scryers
The state of all dungeons
How many scry abilities each player has

Then have players be able to send scry requests to the bot and have the bot auto respond with relevant information.

Steerpike could run the software, entering the relevant info each week. This would, of course, be a bit of a hassle, but it might be easier than responding to 20 different scry requests, especially if players want to use info gained in one scry to decide where to scry with multiple-uses. If everyone could commit to using standard patterns for indicating where their armies are, etc, the bot could even be designed to read the thread, and thus require no input.

EDIT: In case it's not clear, I make bots like this a lot, and would be happy to make a bot like this if Steerpike thinks it'd be useful.

The Glow has scry orders up, and also a reply to Kafer.

I'll ponder that possibility, Raelifin!  It might be very helpful.

Some messages/scrying is up, but more to go (specifically still have Polycarp and zcynther's scrying left - I will get to it either tonight or tomorrow).

Quote from: Raelifin
It might be possible to set up a (software) robot that keeps track of:
The positions of all troops
Any special aspects of troops that would be available to scryers
The state of all dungeons
How many scry abilities each player has

Then have players be able to send scry requests to the bot and have the bot auto respond with relevant information.

Steerpike could run the software, entering the relevant info each week. This would, of course, be a bit of a hassle, but it might be easier than responding to 20 different scry requests, especially if players want to use info gained in one scry to decide where to scry with multiple-uses. If everyone could commit to using standard patterns for indicating where their armies are, etc, the bot could even be designed to read the thread, and thus require no input.

EDIT: In case it's not clear, I make bots like this a lot, and would be happy to make a bot like this if Steerpike thinks it'd be useful.

Would it be possible for that same bot to keep  track of income/upkeep/costs? As the game goes on that gets more and more complicated: it'd be nice if there was a way to just plug in you have x units y and are going to build building z and recruit 25 more unit x and what not- I spend so much time calculating and recalculating and all that and still have a nightmare of a time being certain I caught it all. But I have no idea how complicated that would be to programmed, but I will offer to happily do the busy work of imputing data for costs and upkeep of various things if you can make it as easy to do as the units.txt file for the combat simulator. :)

Quote from: Dolmar
Response to Kafer up. Cleversmarts, I'm waiting for you to post what we discussed OOC IC so's I can respond. ^_^

Edit; forgot to mention there's also a response to the glow in there.

I did post what we discussed in OOC? Did I not post what you were expecting?

Also note: Another message to Grolhund is up; as is one to Viarra.

Quote from: Steerpike
I'll ponder that possibility, Raelifin!  It might be very helpful.

Some messages/scrying is up, but more to go (specifically still have Polycarp and zcynther's scrying left - I will get to it either tonight or tomorrow).

Also, I'm looking forward to one npc response in particular. :D

Replies to Dreams-of-dead-races, Dolmar, The Glow, Lliltul and Dr Robertson

Quote from: XathanWould it be possible for that same bot to keep  track of income/upkeep/costs? As the game goes on that gets more and more complicated: it'd be nice if there was a way to just plug in you have x units y and are going to build building z and recruit 25 more unit x and what not- I spend so much time calculating and recalculating and all that and still have a nightmare of a time being certain I caught it all. But I have no idea how complicated that would be to programmed, but I will offer to happily do the busy work of imputing data for costs and upkeep of various things if you can make it as easy to do as the units.txt file for the combat simulator. :)

I don't quite understand what you want. You'd like some software to keep track of your resources by factoring in your previous resources, army upkeep, production, spoils of war, and trade? What would be the input to this? A text file with all the relevant info? We might be able to convince Steerpike to adopt a specific format for specifying casualties, new dungeons, trades, and spoils of war, in which case I could have the program read the thread and combine your last turn's orders with Steerpike's update to form a template for orders this turn.

I guess I'm just a bit confused because it seems to me that bothering to specify everything you have in some text file and running the program is about as much work as just doing the resource arithmetic. But then of course I'm a math-student/mathematician who has a faction with very easy upkeeps, so what do I know. :P

New message to the Abject up.

Okay, so for real now, I have the last Scrying request in.

Just looking at the messages...this may be the busiest week by that standard in Underdeep yet!

Responses up to NPCs, Grolhund, Sisters, and Kafer.

Quote from: Raelifin

Quote from: XathanWould it be possible for that same bot to keep  track of income/upkeep/costs? As the game goes on that gets more and more complicated: it'd be nice if there was a way to just plug in you have x units y and are going to build building z and recruit 25 more unit x and what not- I spend so much time calculating and recalculating and all that and still have a nightmare of a time being certain I caught it all. But I have no idea how complicated that would be to programmed, but I will offer to happily do the busy work of imputing data for costs and upkeep of various things if you can make it as easy to do as the units.txt file for the combat simulator. :)

I don't quite understand what you want. You'd like some software to keep track of your resources by factoring in your previous resources, army upkeep, production, spoils of war, and trade? What would be the input to this? A text file with all the relevant info? We might be able to convince Steerpike to adopt a specific format for specifying casualties, new dungeons, trades, and spoils of war, in which case I could have the program read the thread and combine your last turn's orders with Steerpike's update to form a template for orders this turn.

I guess I'm just a bit confused because it seems to me that bothering to specify everything you have in some text file and running the program is about as much work as just doing the resource arithmetic. But then of course I'm a math-student/mathematician who has a faction with very easy upkeeps, so what do I know. :P

Oh, I should clarify; I meant I'd put in how much each unit/building costs and how much it's upkeep is. Then I can plug in that I have 15 Exarchs at start of turn and want to buy 20 psions and 50 thralls and build two new thrall pens and five traps and tell me how much gold/food/bodies/metal I'd have left. :P

I just always feel like I'm getting my math wrong, no matter how many times I check it manually.

Response to Kafer and Cleversmarts are ready to read (if you're light dragon or llum. Otherwise, don't bother)

Also, now messages to Succubi and Legion up. Brief message to Dwer being sent before I go to bed.

Added responses to the Abject and another to the Glow.

This has been the single busiest message week I think Underdeep has had so far.

Final responses to Xathan and Light Dragon are up. Orders are also finalized.

Barring something I overlooked or radical new intel, my orders are also finalized.

EDIT: Of course, I'm out of messages to you Nom, so we'll have to assume I'm going to go along with the plan. :P

Responded to Dolmar.

New messages for Käfer and Arquenciel. This week's been really busy in the way of communications.

Yet the Abject and the formerly chatty Dwer have been remarkably silent.

And I just wrote yet another message. :P This time to Ktan-Ydheel.

Quote from: Xathan
Oh, I should clarify; I meant I'd put in how much each unit/building costs and how much it's upkeep is. Then I can plug in that I have 15 Exarchs at start of turn and want to buy 20 psions and 50 thralls and build two new thrall pens and five traps and tell me how much gold/food/bodies/metal I'd have left. :P

I just always feel like I'm getting my math wrong, no matter how many times I check it manually.

This is why I've been using a spreadsheet for my budget since the first week of the game.

>>This is why I've been using a spreadsheet for my budget since the first week of the game.

Last week I had to start using a spreadsheet- before I did that I kept finding math errors all over the place.

I highly recommend automating what you can, Xathan, to avoid headaches. :)

But that makes so much SENSE. thanks for the tip, I'll be doing so.

I have posted replies to the Kirr and the Glow and finished my orders.

Response posted to the succubi.

Responses posted to the Duergar, Ceremorphs, and the Kirr.

Posted another response to the succubi!

Quote from: Light Dragon
Yet the Abject and the formerly chatty Dwer have been remarkably silent.

Worried? ;)

Very. ^_^;;

By the by, the succubi got a message from Dolmar. ^_^

Replied!

There is also a new message for the Glow, and some IC text for... everyone. :D

Responded! ^_^

I think all Scrying info should be updated.  There might be a message or two I need to respond to but they might be booted to next week.

Quote from: Steerpike
I think all Scrying info should be updated.  There might be a message or two I need to respond to but they might be booted to next week.

Poor Saerid just never knows what to say to me, does he? :3

Also, added to my orders. They're really for reals finished now. If anyone's messages to me contained anything vital, let me know I'll respond this week, but as is I think I'm messaged-out for this week. :P

Ah I actually missed that message entirely... I may have to respond to that one tomorrow.

Quote from: Steerpike
Ah I actualyl missed that message entirely... I may have to respond to that one tomorrow.

WOOO! I can't wait.

I'm so stoked for this update you don't even know. Well, Steerpike, you know why. But the rest of you, you don't even know. :P

Spent some remaining cash; I think my orders are Final.

Posted a new character!  Behold Krog the Black!  And don't call him stoopid or e'll git real angry 'n' smash ya!

What does Krog look like, Humabout?  I love drawing Orcs.

Oh?  He is large, dark green and angry with arms that reach to his knees and tusks that curl nearly to his eyes.  His ears are floppy and pierced, and his jaw is particularly square.  Otherwise, he doesn't look particularly intelligent.

I'm curious where he's starting, and when. :P

The Glow's orders should all be finalized now.

I think I've given a response to everyone I can, to my communications limit.

Quote from: Polycarp
I think I've given a response to everyone I can, to my communications limit.

Achievement unlocked!

Regarding Dolmar's story "To Each and Every, A Chance"; I have a question:

Is it possible now to 'share dungeon's' and build, for example, Kobold structures and traps in a Dwarf dungeon and to have the Dwarves and Kobolds each recruit on their own behalves?

From what I remember from the old thread, Dwer and kobolds, to use your example, can build rooms in each others bases, but only kobolds could recruit kobolds and Dwer recruit Dwer.

Edit: and the proceeds of production structures goes to whomever controls the dungeon, though with insta trade being allowed now that shouldn't be an issue.

With the Succubi hanging out in Kirr-Godna all sorts of "dungeon sharing" rules questions in general will probably pop up.

Here are a couple:
To get the layout of a dungeon you're actually in, does it still require a scout action?

Regardless of whether it does or not, if you started the turn there, is it possible to get the results immediately (for the beginning of that week), like a scry, instead of having to wait until the next update?

Is there any reason why a Dwer (or whoever) shouldn't be able to field a Kobold army if controls a dungeon full of Kobolds? (Personally, using the "infiltrator" unit and stealing enemy buildings and constructing all kinds of weird stuff I wasn't 'supposed' to was always one of my favorite parts of RTS games, so I think that Underdeep might be missing out here. :grin: )

I'd just like to clarify why the Legion's faction leader feels that he has to stuff his own thoughts into every message.

Republicanism is crap, and there are way too many fingers in the Legion's pies. As such, I assign loyalty ratings for the Legion's military units and commanders, most of which attenuate with distance from either Marius or the capital. Each army/commander has a political loyalty to the Senate and a personal loyalty to Marius, and I fudge my orders to either side's policy based on those statistics and some minor elements of chance. It's a little like the Confusion spell in D&D- there's a chance to act normally, a chance to do nothing, a chance to do something stupid, and a chance to attack without orders.

There definitely aren't enough loyal commanders or other mitigating factors to go around in order to ensure that Marius gets his way every week. I figured it would be more fun this way, at least until Marius gets around to purging the politicians and forming a dictatorship. Or he could always get elected dictator, that's a potential outcome.

Just a little FYI, in case anyone was wondering who to believe. I generally try to stack modifiers in Marius' favor, but sometimes I don't have enough loyal troops for everything I want to do and things briefly go sqibbly.

QuoteIs it possible now to 'share dungeon's' and build, for example, Kobold structures and traps in a Dwarf dungeon and to have the Dwarves and Kobolds each recruit on their own behalves?

It's not impossible, but it gets very complicated very quickly (like - what happens if the two sides go to war later?).  I'd allow it, but one Faction will still retain control over the dungeon and the other faction(s) will be visitors.

QuoteTo get the layout of a dungeon you're actually in, does it still require a scout action?

It does not.  The best way to arrange it is probably to have one player PM another visiting player a rooms list.  Alternatively I could supply a rooms list if necessary.

QuoteIs there any reason why a Dwer (or whoever) shouldn't be able to field a Kobold army if controls a dungeon full of Kobolds?

Factions can't use rooms that don't belong to them, and the way I'm envisioning things when one Faction directly occupies another Faction's dungeon they're generally driving out/killing/scattering the enemy units and occupying the ruins with their own troops/people.  Different arrangements might easily exist - for example, where you sack an enemy dungeon but deliberately do not occupy it, but instead demand tribute/military service/fealty from the residents.  But in this case you wouldn't control the dungeon/city directly, and your conquered subjects might decide to act against you and rebel in the future.

I think if I let players use non-faction-specific rooms to build units from other players' lists it would lead to some extremely bizarre army compositions - like suddenly the Nocae would probably be building lots of goblin units right now, for example, which doesn't really make much sense, since the Goblins would not have much loyalty to the Nocae (quite the opposite!) and would probably rebel pretty quickly unless a far superior Shadow Elf force would keep them pacified.  That sort of situation cries out for complicated Loyalty rules, and I think the game is already complicated enough.

I do think the exception to the faction breaking rule could be constructs or vermin. Since they have no morale scores or loyalty, and one is built while the other is just trained, there's very little IC reason why they would not. You would probably have to build a special room at that dungeon, taking 200 gold, 30 Metal, and 4 weeks to be able to use them yourself to prevent, say, me from grabbing Gloomsong's capitol and immediately pumping out War Spiders - this room representing the time and resources spent learning how to recreate constructs of that type or how to train vermin of that type. That avoids the complicated loyalty rules issue.

QuoteFactions can't use rooms that don't belong to them, and the way I'm envisioning things when one Faction directly occupies another Faction's dungeon they're generally driving out/killing/scattering the enemy units and occupying the ruins with their own troops/people.  Different arrangements might easily exist - for example, where you sack an enemy dungeon but deliberately do not occupy it, but instead demand tribute/military service/fealty from the residents.  But in this case you wouldn't control the dungeon/city directly, and your conquered subjects might decide to act against you and rebel in the future.

That's an option? You can conquer someone without taking over their dungeon? Because while doing so is really not the most strategically viable option, that leads towards tons of fun RP situations. I might, if I ever go to war with another player controlled faction with intent to annihilate, do this instead of just killing/driving out - seems like it's more fun AND lets the other player continue playing as opposed to "okay, I win")

QuoteIt's not impossible, but it gets very complicated very quickly (like - what happens if the two sides go to war later?).  I'd allow it, but one Faction will still retain control over the dungeon and the other faction(s) will be visitors.

I just figure if the two become hostile they can either claim Pax on that dungeon and it's neutral territory, or, if both don't agree, everyone garrisoned within immediately starts killing each other behind the defenses and winner takes the dungeon.

I don't know about being able to recruit vermin, since some races have more affinity for certain vermin- but if you had a spell, then I think being able to recruit Constructs or summon Elementals or Familiars from enemy structures would be a nice possibility.

I also think it sounds very interesting that the Dwer and Nocae, for example, could co-own a dungeon and recruit from it, with one of them retaining control over the dungeon. :) Thank you for that rule clarification.

I'm withdrawing my re-entry to the game.  Maybe at some later time, I'll have another round.

Fair enough!  Stop in any time, Humabout.

EDIT: as for Constructs and Vermin, I'd say the same rules generally would hold, actually... Iron Golems require powerful rune magic and advanced technical know-how to build, Engines of Excruciation likewiswe need the subtleties of Duergar sorcery and engineering, Tunnel Hulks can only be trained with the years and years of knowledge Duergar Beetle-farmers possess, etc.

Quote from: XathanI do think the exception to the faction breaking rule could be constructs or vermin. Since they have no morale scores or loyalty, and one is built while the other is just trained, there's very little IC reason why they would not.

The problem here is that it opens up another layer of balancing issues that were not originally taken into account.

I'd oppose any move to give factions access to the units of other factions, primarily because factions ought to retain their limited lists and deal with the strengths and weaknesses they're given.  As a fungoid faction, there are certain kinds of units I just don't have - rank and file ranged units, for instance.  Or, as a better example, I have demolition units, but no tunneling units to use demolitions with.  This compels me to seek out friends, allies, vassals, etc. to fill the gaps in my own roster, but I can never "permanently" fill them just by taking over one kobold dungeon and pumping out burrowers.  I think it would be a shame if we lost the inherent strengths and weaknesses of factions so easily.

In any case, there already is a mechanic to acquire units with specialties you lack - mercenaries.

QuoteThat's an option? You can conquer someone without taking over their dungeon? Because while doing so is really not the most strategically viable option, that leads towards tons of fun RP situations. I might, if I ever go to war with another player controlled faction with intent to annihilate, do this instead of just killing/driving out - seems like it's more fun AND lets the other player continue playing as opposed to "okay, I win")

I'd considered doing this myself, though I'm not sure it would work with players.  Considering that you can always rejoin the game, many of us might prefer going out in a blaze of glory than puttering along as someone's largely powerless tributary.  You can't force a faction to cooperate, after all - you can only threaten them with death, and that might be a player's favored option.

Unless you dominated their leader.  Then you can force them to cooperate. :)

Quote from: Polycarp
I'd considered doing this myself, though I'm not sure it would work with players.  Considering that you can always rejoin the game, many of us might prefer going out in a blaze of glory than puttering along as someone's largely powerless tributary.  You can't force a faction to cooperate, after all - you can only threaten them with death, and that might be a player's favored option.

Hmm...Maybe I should have tried that this week. if I had the forces to adaquately hold down the NPC I was attacking. (Since orders are presumably all in and final save one person who's too far from me, I don't feel bad revealing that OOC)

QuoteUnless you dominated their leader.  Then you can force them to cooperate. :)

Doing this thing has never ever crossed my mind and I would never dream of doing this and you're an aweful person for suggesting it and I hoped no one else had thought of it.

Xathan; if you can take the Dark Elf regions this turn, you're probably in a very good situation actually- not as good as what you were, but if you take them out then no one can really attack you for a few weeks unless Saerid decides to continue trying to wipe you out.

Quote from: Light Dragon
Xathan; if you can take the Dark Elf regions this turn, you're probably in a very good situation actually- not as good as what you were, but if you take them out then no one can really attack you for a few weeks unless Saerid decides to continue trying to wipe you out.

Duregar could probably reach you in a few weeks as could Watchers, but Cleversmarts need to focus on internal matters.

Oh, absolutely if I take them I'm sitting cozy - it would not, however, have worked nearly as well if I had tried to take them and demand some kind of vassalage given my current forces. :P

There were a few more battles than I anticipated this week, so the update is going to take a little longer - apologies in advance!  I posted a late message/response for Xathan and some very late scry orders for TMG, though!

Also I was hugely torn between illustrations this week because there were a lot of epic moments, so I ended up doing two...

Quote from: Steerpike
There were a few more battles than I anticipated this week, so the update is going to take a little longer - apologies in advance!  I posted a late message and some very late scry orders for TMG, though!

Also I was hugely torn between illustrations this week because there were a lot of epic moments, so I ended up doing two...

Can't wait to see it! Should I stop refreshing for the day, or is it still possible it'll drop tonight? And now to go see if one of those messages is Saerid responding. :P

EDIT: awwww, it was! Poor bastard.  :P

Yeah, no need to refresh today.  Unless my coffee consumption manages to kick into some kind of Futuramasuqe overdrive of Caffeine Transcendence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Ef0ErCU1c), there's no way I'm going to get through the update totally today.

Drink Moar coffee then!

I'm really curious what's happening with Saerid this week. I hope it's in the update.

Oh it will be!

Oh god...I have a feeling that there is no way whatever happens to/with him ends well for Llitul/Llandri

got slightly inspired so slapped in an IC anyone-can-read text post for the week. It's belated, but doesn't impact any of my orders for the week. :)

My bad, I previewed my orders, but didn't actually hit the post button until tonight. I should probably close my browser sometimes to make sure that I haven't had tabs open for weeks on end.

No problem, I hadn't reached your orders yet anyway!

Iteresting note, if you're like me; that means the furthest steerpike could have been when he posted that, assuming he goes in order, was Tiern, but seeing as Legion and Dwer had a combat last week one could reasonably assume he'd look at Legion orders before writing Toerna, so that would put latest at Llitul.

The fact that I write the briefings in no discernable order but as the mood takes me probably complicates that supposition  :P.

Quote from: Steerpike
The fact that I write the briefings in no discernable order but as the mood takes me probably complicates that supposition  :P.

Drat. I felt so clever there for a moment, too, being all logical about it :P Now to refresh compulsively and hope the update drops in the next 3 hours!

Update days remind me of how I used to react to patch days when I played MMO's. "Is it here yet?" *F5* "Is it here yet?" *F5* "Is it here yet?" *F5*

re: "Kafer. Saerid. Shee-Ra. Dtoulth. Gloomsong."

From Liltul's IC... that's ominous.

Quote from: Light Dragon
re: "Kafer. Saerid. Shee-Ra. Dtoulth. Gloomsong."

From Liltul's IC... that's ominous.

She was listing people who, in her crazy, she believes want her dead or caputred. The strikethrough is because Whisper was adding that name to the list. So not super Ominous, only slightly. ;)

Damn, I forgot about a social engagement I have tonight.  Update will be tomorrow, so refreshers can give their keyboards a rest.  Seriously I'm almost done, though!

:( will look forward to it!

Quote from: Steerpike
refreshers can give their keyboards a rest.

I REFUSE!

(http://i.imgur.com/cyVmX71.gif)

I can't help but notice he didn't say anything about touchscreens, only keyboards.

*tap* damn *tap* damn *tap* damn *tap* damn

EDOT I'm just gonna sit back and hope you have such a good time at your social engament that you get back full of energy and knock out the update because you're in such a good mood. :P

Quote from: Underdeep Rules[ic=Flanking]If two armies of attack a third army from different directions (separate regions), they may receive a flanking bonus.  One flanking army must be at least 50% as numerous as the other flanking army for flanking to occur.  Flanking units receive +2 on all of their attack rolls during the battle.  Whether a particular angle of attack will confer a Flanking bonus or not is up to the DM to decide.[/ic]

I just realized that a CleverSmart army of 3 slingers cannot flank an enemy using a single Black Dragon.  While I get the intent behind the flanking rule, do you intend to fudge it when funny things like this happen?  If so, do you intend to roll with your gut, or do you have some method for quantifying whether or not Flanking works?  (Btw, I'm totally for the "apply common sense liberally" approach.)

I've been thinking about cross-faction buildings that are very close analogues in the context of capturing cities. Would it make any sense for some of the most similar, such as temples and caster production buildings, to have the option of counting as "Broken" for the purposes of building the capturing civilization's tech base? Would this give conquering armies too much of a leg up holding their new territory? Not a clear enough comparison between the buildings of different races?

This came out of pondering what it would be like to perpetrate religious terrorism on some halflings by threatening obliteration if they didn't start worshiping the kobold gods. Knocking heads off of statues and drawing dicks on their faces gets old after a while.

Quote from: Humabout

Quote from: Underdeep Rules[ic=Flanking]If two armies of attack a third army from different directions (separate regions), they may receive a flanking bonus.  One flanking army must be at least 50% as numerous as the other flanking army for flanking to occur.  Flanking units receive +2 on all of their attack rolls during the battle.  Whether a particular angle of attack will confer a Flanking bonus or not is up to the DM to decide.[/ic]

I just realized that a CleverSmart army of 3 slingers cannot flank an enemy using a single Black Dragon.  While I get the intent behind the flanking rule, do you intend to fudge it when funny things like this happen?  If so, do you intend to roll with your gut, or do you have some method for quantifying whether or not Flanking works?  (Btw, I'm totally for the "apply common sense liberally" approach.)

I figured that Large and Huge units count as 4 and 8 units for these purposes, same as regiment splitting, so you'd need a total of 12 kobolds to flank a black dragon, which sounds about right. Plus, most of them would die the first time the dragon used its breath weapon anyway...:P

Quote from: XathanPlus, most of them would die the first time the dragon used its breath weapon anyway...:P

No, Humabout is saying that you can't flank *with* a black dragon and 3 kobolds. For instance, if there are 10 zombies and zcynthr wanted to flank them, they couldn't use 3 kobolds and a black dragon using the rules as written.

Ahhhh. Well, my assumption about how size works, if correct, still does solve that problem. :)

That's not in the rules as written, but it's a change I'd certainly support.  It seems logical.

Yeah I would count Huge as 8 (and Large as 4) for the purposes of flanking.

Quote from: Xathan
Ahhhh. Well, my assumption about how size works, if correct, still does solve that problem. :)

Actually, it wouldn't but for a different reason. If the dragon is treated as 8 troops, then the 3 kobolds would not be sufficiently numerous to provide flanking.

Thanks, Steerpike, for clarifying.

Quote from: Raelifin

Quote from: Xathan
Ahhhh. Well, my assumption about how size works, if correct, still does solve that problem. :)

Actually, it wouldn't but for a different reason. If the dragon is treated as 8 troops, then the 3 kobolds would not be sufficiently numerous to provide flanking.

Thanks, Steerpike, for clarifying.

Maybe I'm misreading it. One army must be 50% of the defender to qualify. If a black dragon is 8 units, it's more than 50% of 10 zombies, and therefore flanking

QuoteOne army must be 50% of the defender to qualify. If a black dragon is 8 units, it's more than 50% of 10 zombies, and therefore flanking

You are misreading it.  It's not 50% of the defender, but of the other flanking force.

[ic=The Rules]One flanking army must be at least 50% as numerous as the other flanking army for flanking to occur.[/ic]

That's right - you need two armies of reasonably comparative size to count as flanking.  Otherwise really cheesy maneuvers could result where an army of 1 grunt flanks with a force of hundreds, and everyone gets huge combat bonuses.  This way you need to commit large chunks of troops to different positions to secure flanking bonuses.

That makes much more sense. So if there was a 4th kobold present, it would qualify, since 4 is 50% of 8 - or of it was, say, a single mindwyrm and a single sentinel, since the former counts as 8 and the latter counts as 4, right?

Thank you for the update!
Hm... Greyskulls... I had been wondering when the attack might come... Very interesting...

I love the shield in the illustration :)

Update is up, let me know about errors!  Though I will probably have to get to them tomorrow.

QuoteA pulsating, gelatinous mass at the center of the Ceremorph Hive, the Overbrain is in fact the accreted cerebral mass of thousands of Ceremorphs, the final stage in their alien life-cycle.  The ultimate goals of Ceremorph Overbrains is known only to the Overbrains themselves, but it seems to include total domination of the Underdeep and the enslavement of all its denizens.  Ceremorph Overbrains usually cooperate with one another, but curious rivalries – perhaps subtle differences in philosophical outlook or personality – have been observed to develop between them, and Ceremorph Hives do sometimes compete for slaves and territory.

Ranged Attack: +10
Ranged Damage: 20 (Psychic)
Melee Attack: +6
Melee Damage: 5
Defence: 15
Health: 500
Speed: 0
Morale: +10
Special Abilities: Agony, Confusion, Detector, Dominate, Huge, Immunity (Fear), Scry

A Ceremorph Overbrain cannot move, but its increases the Morale and Ranged Damage bonus of any units garrisoned in its Hive by +2.  A Ceremorph Overbrain cannot join a regiment.  It can, however, cast spells and use ranged attacks on enemies attacking the capitol Hive from within its chamber.

All units garrisoned at a Hive with an Overbrain are immune to Fear effects.

If the Ceremorph Overbrain is ever destroyed, all Ceremorph units under its control must make an immediate morale check of DC 15 or instantly die from mental shock.  Ceremorph units without a morale score, like Thralls, Larvae, or Brain Golems, die immediately.

I suspect the 500 health might have been a stumbling block of the tripartite attack. It's going to be interesting trying to take this monstrosity down. It is quite a boss.

Quote from: Light Dragon
Thank you for the update!
Hm... Greyskulls... I had been wondering when the attack might come... Very interesting...

I love the shield in the illustration :)

:explode:

We had been spying on your regions and noted that you'd been massing a large amount of forces... which made sense in a way since you only have two entry-points to your territory, but I'll admit- I expected you to attack this turn rather than last.

QuoteI suspect the 500 health might have been a stumbling block of the tripartite attack. It's going to be interesting trying to take this monstrosity down. It is quite a boss.

Yeah, and Sentinels are very tough too.  The 20 Sentinels guarding it added 800 Health to cut through; you guys managed to whittle down a bunch but they're real beasts, one of the best defensive units in the game.

My mind, that update, holy mother of god...

Quote from: Light Dragon
We had been spying on your regions and noted that you'd been massing a large amount of forces... which made sense in a way since you only have two entry-points to your territory, but I'll admit- I expected you to attack this turn rather than last.

I figured that you'd have some defenses, but I was hoping that you'd be more off-guard than you were (or that we'd get lucky). Shucks. Well played. :)

Now for the aftermath...

Omni-directional message up, first part of my IC posts this week.

And now, messages up to:

Glow
Shee-Ra
Abject
Undead
Succubi
Watchers
Glow
Duergar
Gloomsong

More tomorrow!

Important message for all factions is up!

Hmm...very interesting. Bidding war for Watchers!!

Messages up to Lliltul, Dalashinn, Grolhound and NPCs

Response for you, Llum.

Messages for Kirr, Llitul, Watchers, Nocae, and Abject. :)

Does any race have an anti-scrying structure or spell? Or are all our regions essentially vulnerable to being scryed?

If there isn't, that'd make an excellent addition in an expansion module.  I could see it as an ability for a unit, as well - that that unit does not appear in scrying attempts.

Quote from: Humabout
If there isn't, that'd make an excellent addition in an expansion module.  I could see it as an ability for a unit, as well - that that unit does not appear in scrying attempts.

Ghosts for undead?  They don't exist.  Yet.

QuoteDoes any race have an anti-scrying structure or spell? Or are all our regions essentially vulnerable to being scryed?

The Ward spells blocks scrying and detection (and also boosts protection vs psychic attacks and mind-influencing spells).  Not many casters have it right off the bat, though.  It's designed to let assassins and the like do their work even if there are detectors around, as well as concealing valuable assets like big monsters.

Of course, Ward targets units, not places, although Grolhund's room list has a Ward generator that Wards his lab.

Ah, ok. I could see falvourful reasons to allowing Undead, Watchers, or another magic-centric race to eventually be able to construct a very-expensive anti-scrying structure, though.

Letters up to : Legion, Dolmar, Watchers, ShinyElves, Grolhund, Liltul.

Responses to Succubi, Shee-Ra, and Kafer up.

New messages for Overbrain/Saersensine and Llitul.

The Glow has new flavor!

Also messages for Dolmar, Llitul, and Jonquille.

Replies up for Whisper and the Succubi!

Replies up for Kafer, Whisper, and Shee-Ra.

Message to Dreams of Dead Races

New messages to Kirr, Llitul, Abject, and the Overbrain.

Posted messages to Llitul and Kafer.

After listening to the issues of some players I have tentatively made a few small adjustments to Cave Beetles and Tunnel Hulks - a minor nerf for Cave Beetles (slight defence adjustment, and making them vulnerable to Poison) and a minor buff for Tunnel Hulks (increasing their speed by 1, slightly higher defence).

I'd again like to reiterate that I want to keep nerfing/buffing/rebalancing to a minimum, as this sort of thing can very easily turn into an endless, messy debate.  I'm absolutely sure that the game is not fully balanced, but I'm also confident than given months of tinkering and playtesting it would still probably not be fully balanced (have a glance through some Starcraft patch notes and you'll see what I mean...).  This is a goofy experimental little forum game I'm trying out here, not an exhaustively fine-tuned RTS or boardgame.  Let's approach this as the zany lark that it is.

Well, intake comfort in knowing my constant rules questions are 'whole new shit' as opposed to modify old shit. :P

Seriously sorry if I'm contributing to the cycle. :(

Tone is hard to judge on the internet, so just to clarify I don't want to sound admonishing here in any way shape or form.  The above is more of a plea - I just know that I could spend hours and hours trying (almost certainly in vain) to polish the game's balance to a perfect shine and making myself crazy in the process, and the thought of trying to do that sort of makes my brain cry.

Quote from: Steerpike
After listening to the issues of some players I have tentatively made a few small adjustments to Cave Beetles and Tunnel Hulks - a minor nerf for Cave Beetles (slight defence adjustment, and making them vulnerable to Poison) and a minor buff for Tunnel Hulks (increasing their speed by 1, slightly higher defence).

I'd again like to reiterate that I want to keep nerfing/buffing/rebalancing to a minimum, as this sort of thing can very easily turn into an endless, messy debate.  I'm absolutely sure that the game is not fully balanced, but I'm also confident than given months of tinkering and playtesting it would still probably not be fully balanced (have a glance through some Starcraft patch notes and you'll see what I mean...).  This is a goofy experimental little forum game I'm trying out here, not an exhaustively fine-tuned RTS or boardgame.  Let's approach this as the zany lark that it is.

In the same vein, I will declare that I am always in favor of gameplay tweeks that you think are good, even if they mess up my strategy. As a zany lark, that's just the sort of think I think could be fun to adapt to. :D

Also, as a suggestion, why not put a moratorium of making balance changes for the remainder of the month of the beetle? Let yourself focus on updates, new content as you feel like, your other projects, and let the combats of the month show if any serious balance issues exist. Focus on the Zany Lark part of this wonderful game. :)

I won't specifically preclude changing things if they need changing.  I think Cave Beetles did need changing.  I'd just like to keep balance debates down to a dull simmer; the current level of input is just fine and much appreciated and I'm glad that people have PMed me about issues.  Those that PMed me have been exceptionally polite and thoughtful, and that level of feedback is exactly right.  I am more anticipating the possibility of small changes spiraling into an "open season" on the game's mechanics and units, which I want to avoid; that's all.

Ahhhh, that makes sense. Trying to avoid meta game warfare (when we were discussing beetles in chat last night, that phase came up; people trying to get opposing faction's units nerfered). Not that we thought anyone would do that, bit were worried it could happen.

Quote from: XathanAhhhh, that makes sense. Trying to avoid meta game warfare (when we were discussing beetles in chat last night, that phase came up; people trying to get opposing faction's units nerfered). Not that we thought anyone would do that, bit were worried it could happen.

I do worry about this, or at least the appearance of it.  In part, the problem is that every player essentially has his/her own faction, so a nerf to a particular unit is in danger of looking like a nerf to one particular player.  If a third of us were Dwarves, a nerf to a Dwarf unit wouldn't risk looking personal or opportunistic.  Additionally, the people most likely to be looking carefully at your roster, running sims of it, and so on, are your neighbors - and thus the people who are most likely to be aware of units that need a change are the same people who are likely to directly benefit from the change.

The best course of action is probably to, as SP says, keep changes to a minimum, only when there's broad consensus that something should probably be done (which has been true of both warriors and beetles, both of whom Llum and I have talked about being possibly too powerful since pretty much the beginning of the game).  Undoubtedly some factions have stronger lists than others, but it's worth remembering, I think, that dominance in this game rests considerably on non-unit factors - like who allies with you and who allies against you.

If it's at all reassuring, Steerpike, I asked in the beetlechat last night if there were any other units people felt were in dire need of changes, and the chat group couldn't really come up with any. :)

Responses to Abject and Grolhund up. Need to wait on something before I can respond to Glow and Succubi.

Am I missing anyone who's messaged/responded to me?

Posted messages to: Arquenciel, Käfer and Dr. Robertson.

New simulator version! (http://raelifin.com/files/underdeep/underdeep.zip)

In this version I added Agony and Shield. Shield is complete trash if you cast it randomly, so I added a directive to prioritize melee units with spells.

The importance of strategy:
In a combat versus Fifty Kobolds...
Fourty Kobolds and a Runeseer attacking                  won 47.6% of the fights. (Obtained an average of 42.19 bodies/win.)
Fourty Kobolds and a Runeseer shielding randomly     won 45.87% of the fights. (Obtained an average of 39.77 bodies/win.)
Fourty Kobolds and a Runeseer shielding intelligently won 52.74% of the fights. (Obtained an average of 38.6 bodies/win.)

If you really want to see Blood Boil, Poisonous Cloud, Petrify, or another spell besides Dominate (which I don't want to bother with right now) please let me know. I'm going to be focusing on adding Dungeons, Defenses, and Traps next in light of a certain... conflict.

Random question: Do large and huge units count as 4 and 8 for the purposes of teleportation limits?

Responded to Watchers.

Also, in case it was not noticed, a reminder in case the remnants of the Shinyelves had a response to the Queen?

Quote from: Light Dragon
Responded to Watchers.

Also, in case it was not noticed, a reminder in case the remnants of the Shinyelves had a response to the Queen?

Btw, incase you missed, responds up for you. :P

Quote from: RaelifinIf you really want to see Blood Boil, Poisonous Cloud, Petrify, or another spell besides Dominate (which I don't want to bother with right now) please let me know.

Poisonous cloud is the sole ability of one of the basic units on my roster, so yes, I would be very interested in seeing this added to the sim.

QuoteRandom question: Do large and huge units count as 4 and 8 for the purposes of teleportation limits?

I've mulled this over and I think no - 50 large units (or huge units) can be teleported like normal units.  Good question.

Reply up to the Abject.
(I will get back to the Glow and the Kirr once I've had a bit more time to formulate responses)

We got messages to Llitul, Dalashinn, and Shee-Ra.

Responded to Grolhund.

No response is likely coming to Xathan.

Another reply for Whisper.

Responded to Shee-Ra

Quote from: Light Dragon
Responded to Grolhund.

No response is likely coming to Xathan.

Well alright then. :P


Anyone who has outstanding messages to me, need to wait on one thing before I can respond.:)

I'm back from the dead! ^_^

Sorry to everyone I didn't respond to, I was godaweful sick. I'm gonna get my orders hammered out and then try to respond/send messages right quick.

Quote from: Xathan

Quote from: Light Dragon
Responded to Grolhund.

No response is likely coming to Xathan.

Well alright then. :P


Anyone who has outstanding messages to me, need to wait on one thing before I can respond.:)

But did you read ours?  Did you get my references!?

Quote from: Numinous

Quote from: Xathan

Quote from: Light Dragon
Responded to Grolhund.

No response is likely coming to Xathan.

Well alright then. :P


Anyone who has outstanding messages to me, need to wait on one thing before I can respond.:)

But did you read ours?  Did you get my references!?

I'm not sure I did, they were so subtle. :P

(I love getting message from  Doctor Robertson and reading you and rael's posts, btw. They're always a blast. :) )

Gloomyelves have a message.

Hey, so I got my orders first draft style up in the hizzy. ^_^ Even with a scry order!

Life's super crazy since I basiaclly lost the last four days, so I'm catching up on everything. Of the messages out to me, who 100% totes needs a response this week? I'll be trying to get to all of them, ofc, but if enough time doesn't exist I maaaaaaaay not be getting back to purely RP messages until next week.

ICly Dolmar has gotten some kind of horrible illness that he's just recovering from (art imitates life, anyone?), which totes makes sense; the Nocae were all locked up and isolationist for like a century, so now they're starting to feel the effects of being exposed to all that sick that they weren't exposed to while all tucked away. ^_^;;

Hey, a question came up in IRC;

Is it possible to two units to dominate each other on the same round? If so, what happens?

If the two successfully Dominate each other the spells cancel each other out.

This is in no way a complaint, but that answer is a violation of a previous rule you told me. When I asked what happens when spellcasters target each other with mutually disruptive  spells, you said that the order in which the spells resolve was random.

Hmm I suppose that would make more sense.  As the situation has never come up I haven't had to think about it or be consistent... let's go with random, though.  I'll make a note for myself to ensure that I remember!

Responses to Llitul and Shee-ra are up.

Man, I really hate Marius' co-Consul.

You should mention how much you hate your co-Consul to Llitul. I could help...change his mind. :P

Undead are still waiting on a response from the cleversmarts.

Messages and Replies up to the Glow, Dalashinn, Legio I Draco and Lliltul.

Replies to Kirr and Glow posted!
If I've missed responding to anyone, please let me know.

As I'm having a busier week than I anticipated and am not caught up on scry requests or messages I've extended the orders deadline this week.

Response to Käfer is done.

Hm.

Quote from: SteerpikeThese noisome abysses are actually Jabberling breeding-pits, used by the Derro to produce massive numbers of the disgusting, whining beasts.

Cost: 40 Gold
Prerequisites: Cave of Chaos
Construction Time: 3 weeks
Benefit: You can recruit Jabberlings.

So that's whencefrom those nasty things originate.

Responses up to: Undead, Succubi, Abject, Legion, Duergar, Glow

Currently waiting on responses from Watchers and Kirr.

Also, LD, if Shee-Ra is ignoring the message, would you mind posting that ICly somehow? Given how I'm communicating, I'd probably notice a refusal to speak, and ignoring is a response of a kind. :P

I appreciate the delay.  I certainly can't finish anything until the 25th at the earliest.

Posted messages for Llitul and Jonquille.

The delay works out pretty well for me too, actually. I mean, my twitchy insta gratification self goes nownownownow but the rest of me is like 'uh, dude? You still gotta finish your plans for your orders and then put them down in a coherent fashion.'

Replied to Llitul and the Glow. :)

Just checked out the Derro.  They look really cool, man.  I have a question:

A Derro Mine Complex produces 400 gold per turn and 50 metal per turn.  Is this a typo and you meant 300/25 or should the price be 400/50?  Your pricing scheme up until this point was that a mine/upgrade costs as much as it produces in a week.

Also, I love the chaos thing you've got happening here!

Actually several races have mines priced that way towards the upper ends of the spectrum, so that upgrading to a complex pays for itself faster.  This is meant to partially offset the fact that they take quite awhile to make and deplete deposits faster.

As some players have pointed out, building more mines is still more efficient than upgrading your mine(s), although that strategy requires defensive units to cover a larger area and gives enemies more opportunity to swoop in and seize control of your bases, while with an improved mine/complex you can concentrate your defences better.  It's hard to say which is ultimately the better strategy; it's probably very situation-specific.

I'm glad the chaos-thing works.  I wanted the Derro to feel very distinct from the other "deep version" races like Dark Elves and Duergar, but without the full-on Lovecraftian alienage of the Ceremorphs or Watchers.

Ah, I hadn't noticed that sort of pricing at the high end on other faction mines.  I get the logic and wasn't really complaining.  I just thought it might have been a typo.

As for the chaos thing, they definitely feel distinct from the other races to me.  They reminded me much of Chaos Warriors and in their "I'm a normal race, but the Chaos Gods have blessed me with mutation and madness" thing.  If that was your goal, you hit the nail on the head.

I appreciate you pointing it out!

Warhammer's Chaos was partly in my mind, but also the Shivering Isles and the Far Realm.

Xathan- I put up something but I only can send you 2 communications each turn. I have marked it as not my official second communication so I can send something to you later if needed.

Raelifin- IC: you wait and wait for a response; perhaps one is coming, or perhaps a non-written response is on its way.

Quote from: Light Dragon
Xathan- I put up something but I only can send you 2 communications each turn. I have marked it as not my official second communication so I can send something to you later if needed.

Raelifin- IC: you wait and wait for a response; perhaps one is coming, or perhaps a non-written response is on its way.

Remeber, ceremorph. We can send/receive 4 messages. ;)

Perhaps I don't fully understand then; I may not have the rules correct. I know you can send 4 messages to me, but I was of the understanding that I could only reply twice.

It was established in the old discussion thread that the ceremorph double message ability necessarily implied double the responses from their target, because being able to send four messages while still only receiving two replies is not actually much of a bonus at all.  (I would quote you the conversation, but the thread died...)

Ah; thank you for the clarification.

Quote from: Light Dragon
Raelifin- IC: you wait and wait for a response; perhaps one is coming, or perhaps a non-written response is on its way.

Incidentally, a second letter has been been posted for the Cleversmarts.

Angry response posted to Undead.

I am Shee-Ra!  Hear me roar!

Responses to Shee-Ra, Succubi, and Glow up. LD, which persona you're hearing from changed - it's under Llandri. :P

Hoping to hear back from Watchers, Kirr, Abject and Undead soon; looking forward to you all. :D

EDIT: Also, reading over Derro units: I wonder how many derro have died trying this?

[spoiler=For the Lulz](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ziwi-bxHT74/Scz68XIscsI/AAAAAAAAAJk/MF4UBpAlcN8/s1600/Gibbering+Mount.jpg)[/spoiler]

Messages! Glow, Tiern, Succubi, Shee-ra! ^_^

Replies up to Succubi and Whisper as well as a message for Kirr and Undead.

Response (and mindlink) for Ktan-Ydheel up.

Scry orders are up or coming up, responses on their way soon-ish.

Yay! Looking forward to hearing back from various NPCs. And waiting for the scries I contracted to come back. :P

Replied to Llitul and Nocae. :D

Message to Llitul.

"response" to Llandri.

Posted responses for Dolmar and Jonquille.

Replies to Dalashinn, Llitul, Ktan-Ydheel, and Gloomsong posted.  Message to the Legio I Draco posted.

Responses to Undead, Legion, and Succubi posted.

Messages to Robertson and Llitul. I recall reading somewhere that the Demented's mental communication makes four replies in a week possible, to match the four outgoing messages, so I'm going with that for now.

New messages for Llitul and the Abject.

Reply for the Succubi

Reply for Succubi and Legion up. :) Anyone have outstanding messages to me I haven't gotten to?

Got the last reply to Llitul for the week.

My apologies to those who had to wait for my replies this week. I've been a bit of a slacker. :roll:

New messages are posted for Llitul, Arquenciel and Käfer.

Responses to Dalashinn and Undead up. New message for Abject. Waiting on responses from Glow and Watchers. Anyone have outstanding messages to me?

Also, I have written nearly 13 pages of messages this week, and I'm not done. :weirdo:

My orders are in and final, unless I get a message to makes me drastically change them. Also, message to legion up. Rest of messages MAY get in on monday, but crazy week is crazy and nothing I saw was "Must respond for orders this week" critical, which is about what I have the energy to respond to.

Response to my Fiance up. :P

I'm fine sharing that it was so tempting to make the line "As the Wild Dwarves say, come at me" to "As the Wild Dwarve say, Come at me, Bro"

My orders should also be final.

I don't know that I can make this.  This is the start of finals week, and I'm absolutely crushed.  I am actually 100% real talk hallucinating from lack of sleep and have to grade about 500 pages of research papers on top of writing another 25 pages or so for the 30th.

I might add some orders tomorrow but it's possible the Glow might just take a pass on this turn.  I can't really spare any time until the 1st.

That's just fine, Polycarp.  If you have a chance to calculate Production, Upkeep, and Wealth awesome.  But that can always be done retroactively if need be - don't stress.

Hope your hallucinations are memorable!

25 pages for the 30th... phew.  Best of luck.

On the subject of writing large amounts in a short space, this update will take a little while, so compulsive refreshers, don't get your hopes up too high.

Response to Dolmar is done.

I'm pretty sure this week may set a record for most battles fought and most dungeons seized!

EDIT: figuring out what to illustrate is going to be very challenging.

Quote from: Steerpike
I'm pretty sure this week may set a record for most battles fought and most dungeons seized!

EDIT: figuring out what to illustrate is going to be very challenging.

:dead:

Ok, I made some semblance of orders.  Fortunately all the math stuff was done long ago, I just needed to actually tell things what to do.  Consider me finalized.  Apologies to everyone who I didn't get a response to.

Quote from: Steerpike
I'm pretty sure this week may set a record for most battles fought and most dungeons seized!

EDIT: figuring out what to illustrate is going to be very challenging.

Who the heck is fighting a war this week other than Cleversmarts v. Undead...

:fear:

The Succubi know!
They might tell you, for the right price. :P

Sadly, the update isn't going to hit today, as I had hoped it would.  I feel I should give you guys an explanation, because you're awesome players and I feel bad for not getting the update out at my regular pace:

- Orders were quite complex this week (a lot of very intricate battle plans), and I actually screwed up a battle that I had to reroll it from scratch (derp derp).
- There were a lot of battles this week - especially dungeon assaults, which are a bit more complex than normal battles - and those took an unusual amount of time to compute.
- I had a ton of stuff going on this week outside of the game - lots of social stuff, meetings, dentist appointment, other writing I had to do, etc - which delayed things much, much more than usual.

So, in case people were worried the inordinately long delay was the result of any flagging interest or lassitude on my part, fear not - I remain committed to the game, I just have not had the time to produce the update with anything near my regular speed.  The good news is that most of the complicated stuff is out of the way and my schedule is going to start to clear, so the update is not far off.  I had optimistically hoped to sprint to the finish today but then remembered yet another commitment that will eat up the bulk of my afternoon (it never rains but it pours...).

It might be that a brief break from the game and the frenzy of messages might be nice for some of you, especially those finishing up exams or similar things, so perhaps it's not the worst thing in the world the update has been delayed so much more than usual.

Fear not, the update is coming!  Hopefully this kind of extended pause will not happen very often.  Your patience is greatly appreciated!!

Glad to hear it's on the way - will freely admit that I had begun to grow worried. Good luck getting the social stuff done! I'll look for it tomorrow. :)

(After the update hits, will you let us know which battle had the mishap occur?) :P

No worries! And let me express again my thanks for running such a fun game. ^_^

Quick question that came up in IRC the other day that's been niggling the back of my mind: do defenses/repairs that take 1 week to complete finish in time for combat that week? (Basically, do 1 week construction times work like recruitment of new units in that it's totally useable that week when it comes to defensive structures - obviously production structures that have 1 week left in construction can't be used until they actually finish)

Really good question - they work like buildings, so in the week after they've been taken out they're still "down."  This actually means that in certain situations it might be advisable to have defensive melee troops sally forth to defend fortifications against a force on the verge of breaking through them.

That is very good to know, especially for handling defenses of newly conquered dungeons as well as for siege scenarios. :P I'm glad it works that way, otherwise it's too easy for someone to take over a dungeon, rebuild the existing the defenses, and be as well entrenched as the original inhabitants were.

One other question; some races defenses specify a need for their particular wall (Requires Palisade, for example). Can any race's wall serve that purpose, or would you have to build one of your own walls after destroying the current wall of a newly conquered dungeon to build those (or, alternatively, is it viable to outsources walls to another race who has stronger walls than you do/walls you like better and still build those defenses)?

Hey Steerpike, you wouldn't happen to have an ETA for the update, would you? :)

Update-on-the update: 10/13 briefings done, most mapping done, pressing onwards as I can.

Apologies again for the excruciatingly slow speed.  I will really try not to make a habit of it!!

Quote from: Steerpike
Update-on-the update: 10/13 briefings done, most mapping done, pressing onwards as I can.

Apologies again for the excruciatingly slow speed.  I will really try not to make a habit of it!!

Woo HOO! So I'll keep refreshing today. :) good luck getting it done, can't wait. And no need to apologize, real life happens.

Today I wouldn't count on too much - my writing-day is pretty much over at this point.  Might manage to crank out the illustration tonight.

Long-delayed update is finally up!

The only thing missing is an illustration but I figured if I delayed any longer I would probably make Xathan go crazier than Llitul.

I will have an illustration up soon though - it's just not quite finished yet :)

Most of my big recent commitments have wrapped up, so hopefully we can get back to business as usual.  As always, let me know about errors/discrepancies/confusing things.

Thank you guys so much for your patience, and for playing in my game!

You hear that Xathan? It's over, you can give your poor keyboard a rest.

Woah, what a week for koboldkind.  :angry:

Thank you for the update.

Thank you so much! Love this update. :D

Messages for Doctor Robertson and Shee-Ra up. More to come later!

Quote from: Light Dragon
Woah, what a week for koboldkind.  :angry:

Thank you for the update.

Bet you're wishing you had accepted that peace offer now. Eh?

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mad.gif)

I'm doing a project with the maps. Middledeep map for week 3 is broken.

Messages are up to the Duergar and the Kirr. :)

Messages for legion, glow, abject, and kirr up.

Message to Shee-Ra and a response for Llitul have been added.

Despite being curious what's happening with the Duergar this week, our previous plans to send messages to the Kirr or Abject have been cancelled.

That peace option last week was an obvious trick.  :P "we offer peace until your death...", add that to what I had to give up and where I couldn't go coming from an unprovoked assault and I'm sure the peace would have been lasting ...  :dead:

edit: Ok. Reading the latest message from you now. :P

Well, peace until Shee-ra dies *would* mean that we couldn't kill Shee-ra without breaking our word. And just because we attack without warning doesn't mean we're don't mean what we say. That said, we were asking for a peace settlement which steeply curbed your ability to expand, so I can understand rejecting it.

Response to the Undead up.

I wonder if this week is going to be as crazy as the last, or if we'll have a "buildup" lull. Very interested to see what this project of yours is, Raelifin. :)

It'll be a webpage where you can step through the history of the maps, see rough borders/zones of control and track how long dungeons and outposts have existed. Unfortunately I got super distracted by Underdeep yesterday, further delaying my City of the Chosen update. I'm attempting to remedy that by *not* working on my new project until I get City done for this week.

Oh the problems of someone who gets excited by new projects too easily...

That sounds awesome! :D

And I hear you on new projects, believe me. I'm still pondering far too many ideas. :P I had an idea of a zones of control map based on speed and dungeons and whatnot that I ended up abandoning because I got distracted by Keldora and working on reviving Forbidden Arts and other things, so I'll look forward to seeing what you do! (I was going to add a rough estimation of "Sphere of Influence" based on how much speed the commonly used units of that empire have, which would probably be too much of a headache.) :P

I had the same idea about a sphere of influence, but because I think it's important to reflect the uncertainty of defense, I'm using a flat 2-zone "controlled territory" and a 4-zone "influenced territory", with territory being blocked by other players. This gives a consistent (if somewhat inaccurate) approximation of faction "size", which is fine with me given that there are so many different factors at work with regard to combat strength and zones of control.

That sounds like a much better way to handle it, TBH. If someone has two influenced territories that overlap, will that be treated as a controlled territory?

I wasn't planning on doing it that way, no. The prevalence of invisible units and non-map-visible NPCs makes me hesitant to extend control beyond the immediate vicinity of structures and armies.

Fixed the broken link back in Month of the Spider Week 3.  Your project sounds awesome, Raelifin.

Forgive my ignorance of such matters, but does anyone have any insights into why links like that sometimes spontaneously cease to function?

It's been brought to my attention I made a major mistake.  I mistook a Sphincter Gate for a Teleportation Sphincter, which is why the Overbrain was able to retake Curasd (the Lowerdeep eastern Hive) from the Cleversmarts/Hive Elves with such ease.

I will set about correcting this error and rerolling/rewriting the battle.  Light Dragon, this mostly affects you, so things may be significantly less dire for you this turn.

Not sure about when I will be able to get the retcon/rewrite finished, but I'll try my best to get it done sooner rather than later.

Thanks to Xathan & sparkletwist for bringing this to my attention!

Thank goodness for Parleys. :)

Good luck with the retcon. In that case, LD, I retract my message to the cleversmarts since it directly dealt with that battle.

Quote from: Steerpike
Fixed the broken link back in Month of the Spider Week 3.  Your project sounds awesome, Raelifin.

Forgive my ignorance of such matters, but does anyone have any insights into why links like that sometimes spontaneously cease to function?

Thanks. I'd suspect ImageShack. I don't know if they keep stuff up forever.

I suspect the same, but it seems to strike almost at random - it's not chronological or anything, so it's not as if the earliest images are affected first, which would make sense if there was some sort of "auto-delete" function going on at imageshack.

It might be based on images that don't get viewed (i.e., downloaded) for a certain length of time. Depending on who is looking at what page and who has what cached, that could seem almost random.

Steerpike- thank you. And thank you Xathan and Sparkletwist for pointing it out. Maybe you could push back the date orders are due by a day or two to give some time to react to that change?

Sure thing.

Hey, I noticed the map for the LD was changed but the MD map isn't - is the retcon complete? :grin:

Posted messages to Arquenciel, Dr. Robertson and Llitul.

Steerpike:
There are a few regions on the map that confuse me. The first is the island in the upperdeep. Is it its own region? The next is the darksea and the rivers and the other lakes. Do they count as regions that are only inhabitable by aquatic troops? If an aquatic troop retreat to that region, can land troops do nothing to pursue? Lastly, if there's a crevasse like the pit in the gloomreach, is it possible to treat it as a region for flying troops? Like, can you position fliers there instead of just using it to move between levels?

EDIT:
Also, please let everyone know when the retcon is done. Some of our plans hinge on the state of the Cleversmarts.

Because I'm still working out the issues with the map, but I'm feeling like working on Underdeep stuff, I'm going to make a bot that automatically builds a relationship graph like I made a while back. We'll see how it goes.

On an unrelated note, I've always felt that it was a little weird that Underdeep just *started* all of a sudden and there are all these factions running around without much in the way of a world history. Each of the factions has its own history, of course, but the deep doesn't feel like it existed before the month of the spider. Steerpike, do you have any comments on this? Does anybody disagree? I think it'd be neat to, say, get a map of the deep, say, a year ago. If Steerpike is too busy to want to go into this it could always be a collective work. Just musing.

It does help, as far as history goes, if you went spelunking in any of the ruins while they were untouched; I feel I know a bit more of the Duergar Empire that predated Month of the Spider 1, for example. A year old map would be pretty cool, though; I'd be totally down for collaborating on that. :D

Quote from: Xathan
It does help, as far as history goes, if you went spelunking in any of the ruins while they were untouched; I feel I know a bit more of the Duergar Empire that predated Month of the Spider 1, for example. A year old map would be pretty cool, though; I'd be totally down for collaborating on that. :D

Ah, that's cool. Now I wish we'd rushed more ruins!

I also have this feeling that it didn't really exist before then, but I took that as one of the conceits of the game, like how your faction didn't really meaningfully exist before the game starts when you play an RTS game.

Messages to Dalashinn and Legion up. Message for Glow coming down the pipe.

BTW, Steerpike, thought I'd let you know of a broken picture- Grolhunds in the Rules and Factions thread. (Was perusing it to make sure there wasn't anything I had missed for Forbidden Arts that I could steal. :P )

Response to Dalashinn has been posted. We'll respond to Llitul after the retcon is confirmed.

So at what building can my leader research this "retcon" spell I keep hearing about?

I thought the retcon was confirmed- kobolds didn't lose ShinyFriendship Stair.

>> I think it'd be neat to, say, get a map of the deep, say, a year ago.

I thought pretty much everything of note in MD and LD was controlled by the Duregar empire, which somehow fell? And upperdeep probably had Disa Grimhammer, and everyone else's starting position in one region each.

Letter to Watchers up.

NEW SOCIAL NETWORK ANALYSIS
(http://raelifin.com/files/pics/underdeepNetworkMay18th.png)

[note=Comments]The ring near Llitul means my program says she sends a decent amount of mail to herself. ;)

The overbrain is in a seriously bad spot, relationship wise.

If you remove the dead parties and the NPCs, like Gloomsong and the Overbrain, then the graph keeps its roughly linear shape (mentioned last time I did this).

War with the undead and hostilities with Llitul has driven the cleversmarts more towards the Dwer-Nocae alliance. Time will tell what happens there.

The Duergar are in a really weird spot, being pushed away from the Abject and Llitul, but also being pulled towards the Kirr. They're the major exception to the linearity of the graph. Who knows, perhaps the global politics will yield three major factions.

The Glow have remained *remarkably* neutral. Llitul was in a similar spot a few turns ago, so we'll see whether they stay in the neutral camp or whether they get into a conflict. The same could be said of the watchers.

There are probably conflicts that I haven't added to this map due to lack of public information about them. For instance, there's indications of conflict between the legion and the dwerim.[/note]

(A) = Abject
(B) = Bloodlord's Kirr
(C) = Cleversmarts
(D) = Dwer
(E) = Exalted Llitul with other personas and titles
(F) = Fungoids
(G) = Grolhund
(K) = Kafer's Duergar
(L) = Legio I Draco
(M) = Mithril Tower Elves (before Saerid's corruption)
(N) = Nocae
(O) = Overbrain (including Saersensine)
(R) = Red Tide
(S) = Succubi
(U) = Undead
(V) = Viara Gloomsong
(W) = Watchers
(X) = Misc NPCs

Black = Moderate communication
Blue = Strong communication
Red = Hostile
Green = Known Allies
Purple = Violence + Parleys (i.e. complex)
Brown = Moderate Communication + Parleys (likely allied)
Cyan = Strong communication + Parleys (likely allied)

Retcon should be done.

Very interesting. :D

The Succubi have parleyed with Llitul on multiple occasions, but for some reason the logs never got posted. So that line should probably be cyan. :)

I love those social maps. :)

Watchers do have a conflict with the Overbrain, but none with me. :) I set that brain up but good. :)

Updated.

Let me know if there are any other errors/oversights.

I don't see a war line between watchers and overbrain. Don't know if they're still at war, but they've flipped dungeons.

I enjoy your relationship map. :)

Also, I suppose this is general knowledge now: Grolhund actually sacked my dungeon once :P. He just rolled in and reaped. That's what led to the parley.

Quote from: Light Dragon
I don't see a war line between watchers and overbrain. Don't know if they're still at war, but they've flipped dungeons.

I enjoy your relationship map. :)

Also, I suppose this is general knowledge now: Grolhund actually sacked my dungeon once :P. He just rolled in and reaped. That's what led to the parley.

Yeah, I know about Grolhund's attack. I wasn't sure if you were still enemies because of the parley. That's why you guys get a purple bond.

You may have to refresh the page to get the updated image (with O-W red line). Sometimes browsers cache images to reload pages quicker.

"The Orc Wrathpriest Vruthor, apprentice of Llitul (slain by Cave Beetles)"
That sounds so ignoble.

Re: Raelifin- refreshing a few times worked. Thank you.

The Orc Wrathpriest Vruthor, apprentice of Llitul (slain by tripping on a rock (hey, these caves are dark!))

The Orc Wrathpriest Vruthor, apprentice of Llitul (slain by chronic high blood pressure)

All messages that were impacted by the retcon have been updated/removed. (Sorry Shee-Ra. :P)

Response to Glow up, message to Grolhund up. Awaiting responses from Kirr, Abject, Legion, and Undead. :)

Messages to Dalashinn, The Glow, The Succubi, Lliltul, The Nocae, The Dwer, Grolhound and the Legio I Draco.

Quote from: Llum
Messages to Dalashinn, The Glow, The Succubi, Lliltul, The Nocae, The Dwer, Grolhound and the Legio I Draco.

Hahahaha, the message to me made my day for sheer levels of win.

New messages to Käfer, Arquenciel and Llitul.

My response to Dr. Robertson is coming soon, hopefully.

Response for Kafer

Sent letters to Watchers, Viarra, New Goblins and the Legion.

Messages to Duergar, Succubi, and the Glow up (2 of the ones for last week).

Hey Steerpike, quick question; for units with variable stats (Units that can select Grudge against multiple targets, Derro Mutants that select different mutations, that sort of thing) do they count as different or the same unit for regiment splitting purposes? The problem I see with the former, for example, is a regiment makes a single morale check - so if a single unit has grudge (goblins) and the rest have grudge (demons), what would be the regiment's morale score be if they were fighting goblins? Or in the case of two-headed derro mutants, how would rerolls work?

Replies up for Whisper and the Succubi, message up for the Noctae.

Excellent question, Xathan.  I would generally treat units with distinct abilities as separate regiments unless for some reason the ability in question wasn't relevant to the fight at hand (like a Grudgebearer (Orc) and  a Grudgebearer (Goblin) regiment fighting Ceremorphs or something - their distinct Grudges don't come into play so here I'd be inclined to treat them as a single regiment).

Good to know! It had popped into my head because it all of a sudden became relevant to my interests. :P

EDIT: also, how does it apply for purposes of non-combat spellcasting - invisibility, haste, ward, phase shift, etc. Since it isn't relevant to the combat at hand, do they all count as one regiment despite different abilities?

Bringing this back up because I think Steerpike missed/forgot about it.

Quote from: RaelifinSteerpike:
There are a few regions on the map that confuse me. The first is the island in the upperdeep. Is it its own region? The next is the darksea and the rivers and the other lakes. Do they count as regions that are only inhabitable by aquatic troops? If an aquatic troop retreat to that region, can land troops do nothing to pursue? Lastly, if there's a crevasse like the pit in the gloomreach, is it possible to treat it as a region for flying troops? Like, can you position fliers there instead of just using it to move between levels?

Replies for the Duergar, Kirr, Abject, and Nocae. :)

Reply to the Duergar up. Responses to Abject coming. Dalashinn response will only come if I can think of anything to add, I think we've reached the end of that particular discussion. :P

Letter up to Dolmar.

Letter up for new goblins and Tiern up! Gonna have some more tomorrow. ^_^

Response to Abject up. Response to Grolhund waiting on scry results. Do I have any other outstanding messages?

The Glow has replied to Llitul and Dolmar.

Responded to the glow, and added an OOC note to my note to the Abject, because one thing wouldn't make sense without it. :P

EDIT: Also, added a soundtrack for the week. Was gonna save that one for the Overbrain, but A) found one that I like for that better and B) Figured a fight against an actual Player deserves my favorite of the two songs.  :P

Two new messages posted: one to Arquenciel and one to Dr. Robertson.

The Glow has a message for the Succubi.

Replies for the Glow and the Kirr. :)

QuoteThere are a few regions on the map that confuse me. The first is the island in the upperdeep. Is it its own region? The next is the darksea and the rivers and the other lakes. Do they count as regions that are only inhabitable by aquatic troops? If an aquatic troop retreat to that region, can land troops do nothing to pursue? Lastly, if there's a crevasse like the pit in the gloomreach, is it possible to treat it as a region for flying troops? Like, can you position fliers there instead of just using it to move between levels?

- Island is its own region.

- Correct on the regions of water.  Land troops can assault units in a region of water if they're along the banks.

- Hadn't thought about flying troops and crevasses but I'd allow it.

The Glow has responded to the Succubi.

Quote from: Steerpike

QuoteThere are a few regions on the map that confuse me. The first is the island in the upperdeep. Is it its own region? The next is the darksea and the rivers and the other lakes. Do they count as regions that are only inhabitable by aquatic troops? If an aquatic troop retreat to that region, can land troops do nothing to pursue? Lastly, if there's a crevasse like the pit in the gloomreach, is it possible to treat it as a region for flying troops? Like, can you position fliers there instead of just using it to move between levels?

- Island is its own region.

- Correct on the regions of water.  Land troops can assault units in a region of water if they're along the banks.

- Hadn't thought about flying troops and crevasses but I'd allow it.

Thanks. A few more map questions:
The boneyard in the lowerdeep between 42 and 44 is impassible, passable by flyers like a chasm, passable with extra move like mushroom forest, or just plain passable?
Some chasms have bridges, in which case they count as only one region (lowerdeep 64) while others, because they don't have bridges, count as two (LD 52 & 53). If one were to break the bridge at 64, would it become two regions? If one were to build a bridge between 52 and 53 would they become one region? To make matters more confusing, there are some areas, like uppderdeep 8, where a single coordidoor spans both sides of a crevasse, despite there being no bridge.

A preview of what I'm doing:
(http://raelifin.com/files/pics/upperdeepColors.png)(http://raelifin.com/files/pics/middledeepColors.png)(http://raelifin.com/files/pics/lowerdeepColors.png)

(If any of the corridor/cavern designations are wrong, please let me know.)

Looks very cool, Raelifin!

QuoteThanks. A few more map questions:
The boneyard in the lowerdeep between 42 and 44 is impassible, passable by flyers like a chasm, passable with extra move like mushroom forest, or just plain passable?
Some chasms have bridges, in which case they count as only one region (lowerdeep 64) while others, because they don't have bridges, count as two (LD 52 & 53). If one were to break the bridge at 64, would it become two regions? If one were to build a bridge between 52 and 53 would they become one region? To make matters more confusing, there are some areas, like uppderdeep 8, where a single coordidoor spans both sides of a crevasse, despite there being no bridge.

Boneyard is fully passable.

I should have been more careful with bridge placement, but ah well.  Upperdeep 8 has a single corridor because there used to be a bridge there (it was mysteriously blown up some weeks ago).  Effectively it is two regions (U8 "North" and U8 "South"), but technically it remains a single region for people like teleporters and flyers.  In short, blowing bridges does not split regions.

I do notice one oddity: L64, on your map Rael, appears to be both a cavern and a corridor, depending on which side of the bridge you're on. If that's how it's supposed to be, could someone build a dungeon in L64 North and an outpost in L64 South? Or is L64 JUST a cavern or JUST a corridor?

Quote from: Xathan
I do notice one oddity: L64, on your map Rael, appears to be both a cavern and a corridor, depending on which side of the bridge you're on. If that's how it's supposed to be, could someone build a dungeon in L64 North and an outpost in L64 South? Or is L64 JUST a cavern or JUST a corridor?

I think it should've just been a cavern. Fixed.

Messages up to Dolmar, Dalashinn, the Goretooth, Lady Viarra, Grolhound and the Undead.

Message sent to Llitul.

Quote from: Raelifin
Message sent to Llitul.

Response up.

and response to grolhund.

Messages sent to the Kirr, Abject, and Duergar.

Response to kafer and whisper up.

response to grolhund up.

I extended the orders date a few days as some players hadn't completed orders, and for some reason *I* thought orders were due monday, which is why I was dragging my feet on a couple of scry requests (thought I had more time...).

You know, for all my "more more more", designing FA has made me respect much more how much work you put into this; wanted to say once again how much it's appreciated!

Has anyone PMed Superbright to let her know that the turn is going on? I don't think she has posted yet.

I hadn't but maybe I should...

Superbright effectively dropped City of the Chosen, too. My guess is that she's dealing with the dreaded IRL monster!

Oh man, the irl monster. Not to be trifled with.

I will finish my orders by midnight tonight!

Added a late IC vignette to give you all something to read while refreshing obsessively. :grin:

Dear Underdeep players,

The candle that burns twice as bright lasts only half as long...

I was launching myself into the latest update for Underdeep when I came to a realization I just couldn't shake: the fun-to-stress ratio of Underdeep has shifted for me.  When I'm not writing Underdeep I feel guilty, but the amount of time Underdeep is taking is only growing, as the game continues to get more and more complex and sprawling.  To put it in perspective, back in the first month of play the average update was about 7000 words, through the second month it climbed to 8000-9000, and now it's approaching 10000 words a week, roughly 20-25 pages – that's before responses, scry reports, and amendments.  As time goes on, I can only see this getting greater and greater.

Meanwhile, my available work-time for this stuff has shrunk.  As some of you know I'm in the midst of a PhD dissertation; I'm also writing my first attempt at a novel (roughly 100 pages in so far) and GMing an IRL game.  I find I increasingly have to split my time in ways that aren't satisfying to me.  Underdeep relies on a fairly fast turnover rate for updates: buildings take a long time to construct, Fungoid units decompose over time, moving anywhere takes weeks, research is intensive, etc.  The game requires momentum to keep itself going.  I'd hoped that the extended turnover last week was a one-off, but it's increasingly looking like longer breaks between turns would become more and more common.  In a few months I'll be teaching, as well, so that would diminish my time yet further.  I don't think I'm capable of keeping up with the momentum, at least not without having a nervous breakdown.

I think when I started the game I made a few mistakes.  Firstly, I accepted too many players.  The response to Underdeep was wonderful and incredibly gratifying: I was blown away by the collective enthusiasm, and got swept up in the project.  I didn't want to turn anyone away, and so I took on more players than I could handle long-term.  If I'd been smart I would've restricted the game to 5-6 players, or maybe 4 players and a few monster players.  I would have made the map a bit smaller, too.

This brings me to another point – increasingly, I'm dissatisfied with some of my rules.  While as a whole I'm very pleased with the system and its core mechanics, the rules need major restructuring that I don't want to do mid-game, particularly economically (just to start, Dwarves/Dwerim and Duergar, I think, need an economic re-think, and the Fungoid economic model needs an overhaul; Metal needs to be more useful to more races, and I would probably require it to be converted from Ore; and I would make Food structures produce once a month instead of once a week).  Several spells, also, need work: Scry and Haste, in particular, are too powerful.  I'm not wholly satisfied with the roles of Commanders, either.

I've noticed, also, that the commitment the game demands from its players is also going up.  With the large number of players present, messages are requiring more and more time.  Orders are coming later and later; in-character text is, generally, shrinking (Xathan's serial novellas and Raelifin/Numinous' short stories excepted!).  I find myself wondering if perhaps the game might be becoming a chore for some of you, which I wouldn't want.

Finally, I miss running regular games on this site – Sixguns, Fimbulvinter, Tempter, and Cadaverous Earth (I'd also like to run War on Horror or Age of Madness one-shots at some point).  I'd like to do more of these, but right now I have no time to do notes for any games but Underdeep.  Many of you have played in those games and, I hope, would play in them again.

What it comes down to is that while I still have a great deal of enthusiasm for the game, I simply lack the time to keep Underdeep up to date in the manner it really demands.  I briefly considered playing out a few more weeks of the game, but then felt this would be dishonest to you, the players.  If you knew the game were ending sooner rather than later, what would be the point of spending time devising new orders, writing in-character text, and calculating your stats?  Moreover, my heart wouldn't be in the updates anymore: I'd just be biding my time, waiting for the end.  I figured it was better to take the game off life support than to let it slowly dwindle into a pale shadow of its former glory.

Recently, Xathan and Light Dragon have both come out with forum games of their own, and I believe Humabout is also still planning one.  City of the Chosen continues, as well.  If you have an itch for continuing with this sort of game, I highly recommend these excellent games.  In the future, I may relaunch a revised "Advanced Underdeep" game with a more limited player-roster and overhauled rules.  But, until then, I'm afraid I have to end the game for now.

You've all been truly excellent players, and I'm very grateful to all of you for participating in this crazy game.  I'm sure this decision will be disappointing to some of you, and I'm sorry for that.  I hope, though, that you had fun playing the game, devising new strategies, and roleplaying your characters; I know I had fun DMing for you all.

Cheers,

Steerpike

I will confess to being disappointed, but I also admit that bookkeeping for fungoids was catching up with me, and my time to write IC text has dwindled.  I will miss the interesting characters and ingenious factions people crafted, and the prospect of assimilating them all into the Glow's glorious light.

I wish you the best of luck with your other endeavors; if there's a silver lining here, it's that maybe we'll see more of your writing and creativity as a result of ending this particular commitment. :)

I'll also confess to being a bit disappointed! But I also sympathize and agreeing with some of your concerns-- writing my positively baroque orders did take me far more time than I intended.

It has been fun. :grin:

It's been an amazing game and I don't think I could have asked for a better first-time experience and introduction to forum gaming.

Thank you for the truly excellent memories and good luck with all your future endeavors - I hope to play with you again someday soon.

Enjoy time with your family!

As an aside about IC and turn times. About 3 or 4 turns ago when I sent a bevy of IC messages it took me over 12 hours to craft my turn(!) (It ate up an entire Saturday) Then I fully converted to Excel and got it down to 6 hours. IC may have suffered due to that; naming every kobold certainly did. But the main issue with IC was that I felt like saying things in IC was giving away my strategy, so I tried to avoid talking about controversial things... and as the game moved on and people became closer, more and more felt like it should be off limits.

Re: Rules;
It would have been nice if a limited number of Commanders with higher stats could move and have the bonuses and the "stewards" in each region would not have bonuses. That would encourage stories to be written about commanders in times of action rather than just when they are defending.

...Time to go read Humabout's goblin in-character talk earlier in the game. I was very curious how he decided to go to war with the dwarves.

At least one major benefit of ending this turn- Shee-Ra will now certainly not die at the hands of vile Greyskulls!

Thank you for a highly entertaining game!

~LD.

I'll admit to being very sad with the end of Underdeep: I may very well write an epilogue for Llitul covering what I kinda wanted to happen with the whole Saerid/Overbrain thing. You've created a marvelous game here and it's been a crazy ride, and I'm sad to see it go - still, thank you for the amazing time! And it's totally revived my love for forum games. Thank you again.

I hope this does allow you to run other games - I would for a chance to reprise Gideon in Sixguns or rejoin Fimbulvinter.

EDIT: Also, is it too early reserve a spot in a potential Advanced Underdeep game? :P

Quote from: Light Dragon
At least one major benefit of ending this turn- Shee-Ra will now certainly not die at the hands of vile Greyskulls!

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!
She still dies in my fan-fiction! ;)

On a more serious note, I want to say that I completely understand where you're coming from, Steerpike. The time it's taken me to update City has exploded, and I've had to force myself to take my time with it to avoid burnout. The weight of "you need to update this" combined with the pages and pages of text is pretty damn stressful. It's a question of love; it always is. And if you're not loving it, I am behind your decision 100%.

That said, I too mourn the end. Thinking about Ashton and the deathless, spending conversations with Num discussing strategy and lore, and even running numbers and building the simulator were all a total joy for me. So much so that I simply had to start City to share that joy, and I feel like many of the other people who've started spin-off projects will say the same. Thank you, so much, Steerpike, for the time and effort that you've poured into something that I will look back on with fondness.

I'm sure Raelifin is writing a response to this news at the moment as well, but I wanted to say thanks as well for running this vast machine that accidentally made its own little world.  Even though I'm not much for numbers, working with Raelifin on this has been an intense experience, plotting out the struggle of some simple, honest necromancers making their way in a cruel world too ignorant to understand their peaceful ways.  Enjoy your reprieve, if nothing else you haven't seen the last of us in forum games now or later.

Signing off,
- Dr. Robertson, Professor Immortal

EDIT: The jerk ninja-posted before me.  What he said, too.

QuoteShe still dies in my fan-fiction! ;)

She had an exit strategy :P. Apparently Dire Rats can escape out of Escape Tunnels. Which was good, because she wasn't going to surrender and although she probably could have repelled the ghasts... once you ghoulified my relief army, I had a big problem close at hand :).

If you attacked and won (and you would have won if you attacked this turn), you would have earned 400 gp/turn 50 metal (!) with the region's amazing mine, although I was doing what I could to wreck it.

I will admit I'd love to know A) If I would have survived the Duergar counterattack and B) If I would have captured Saerensine this week. Because I was really hoping. :P

Ahh, well, she does both in my fanfiction! :D

The game was very much fun while it lasted, but I totally understand your reasons. It was at times a bit challenging to keep pace merely as a player, so I can imagine having to write updates for each player alone must have been an enormous burden, to say nothing of all the work going to resolving battles, drawing pictures, etc. So, kudos for keeping UD running as long as it did - and a thank you to all the fellow players that gave me interesting times. :)

I had tons of fun! While it was a shame none of my plans ever came to fruition (like the 60-strong legion of slime golems I was going to use to steamroll my way through the Lowerdeep and the ancient horror out of time I was going to awaken with the tablet shards), the Watchers were some of the most fun I've ever had roleplaying.

Much respect to steerpike for running it this long. I think almost any other member here would have crashed far sooner. That was insane commitment.