The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: Monte CookThe Ninth World is a science-fantasy setting approximately a billion years in the future. The people of the world dwell amid the flotsam of impossible ultratech of eight prior civilizations and call it magic. Unimaginably huge machines lie beneath the earth, and satellites orbit high above, transmitting a web of data and free energy. Nanotech, gravitic technology, genetic engineering, spatial warping, and superdense polymers allowed the inhabitants of the previous worlds to reshape the planet. Mass and energy were theirs to command.

That's my jam right there.

The concept of lost-and-reclaimed-and-lost-and-reclaimed-and-lost-again knowledge, of whole worlds built upon the detritus of former civilisation, is germane to the works of several members on this board (Steerpike, Polycarp and myself spring immediately to mind). Colour me intrigued.

What's kind of my favorite part about Numenera (apart from the fact that the octopus is the only creature to survived the test of time unchanged and now rule the Western Ocean) is how damn optimistic it is at heart.

Also, about the power creep or lack thereof, by the time the characters reach the Tier 6, they won't be VASTLY more powerful than they were at Tier 1, which to be fair was fairly competent; they'll be much more broadly skilled and probably have collected a small arsenal of powerful numenera, but things that could have eaten them alive and crapped out their skeletons at Tier 1 will still probably be a challenge. It's hard to generalize though, because the character's three stats (Might, Speed, and Intellect) are pools that they can spend from to fuel powers and boost rolls rather than flat values and its entirely up to the player how they want to increase them as they level up.

I'm totally not doing the flexibility of the system justice though.

First bizarre and unnecessary thing:

(paraphrasing) "for every cumulative +3 bonus to a roll, ignore the bonus and subtract 3 from the target number."

...why?

It's not mechanically wonky, just superfluous.

Because target numbers are always multiples of three, from 3 to 30, so a +3 boost is the same thing as lowering the difficulty level.

I guess that's there in case someone can't put the two together?

So why not have one or the other exclusively? Either: every advantage decreases the target by some value; or: every advantage increases your aptitude by some value.

I really don't see how cleaving steadfastly to these multiples of three and including this completely superfluous calculation makes the system better. But again, it doesn't change the maths. It's just an idiosyncratic waste of time.

I haven't actually seen a lot of examples in-game of things giving bonuses to rolls. Spending Effort and skill training just reduces the difficulty of the challenge by one step. As for the multiples of three, I believe it was so they could rate the difficulty of challenges and monsters on a scale of 1 to 10 (which is easy to comprehend) while having target numbers that worked with a d20.

Quote from: Monte CookUltimately, the GM is the arbiter of conflicts that do not involve the PCs. They should be adjudicated in the most interesting, logical, and story-based way possible. When in doubt, match the level of the NPCs (characters or creatures) or their respective effects to determine the results. Thus, if a level 4 NPC fights a blood barm (level 3), he'll win, but if he faces a jiraskar (level 7), he'll lose. Because an ithsyn is a level 4 creature, it resists poisons or numenera devices of level 3 or less, but not those of level 5 and above.

This is good. A simple metric that minimises GM wank and reinforces the game's core conceit:

"the players are the independent variable. They must act to change the state of play."

Intrusions
The part where the GM tantalises players with complications for XP is right up my alley. The part where refusing those intrusions costs XP is complete bullshit.

A player's god given right to say "No, sir, I don't want to suddenly lose my sword for no reason at all" should not be punished. The part where GMs can intrude for free on a natural 1 is promising, but needs work.

The rules for creatures and NPC's are extremely bare-bones, especially compared to the detailed character creation, which I suspect is to deter GMs from dragging the story away from the players.

And yes, GM Intrusion is probably among the most controversial elements of the game and I haven't really heard of anyone coming up with an effective houseruling on it. I think the mark of an effective GM would be knowing when an Intrusion will complicate the situation in a compelling way that won't get the player killed.

What's funny about that whole concept is that every situation the GM introduces is already a complication. Intrusions need to be formalised: specific complications for the various classes of action. Intrusions as written are Destructive because they are Ambiguous and therefore subject to Abuse.

It's worth pointing out that the book is fucking gorgeous. I doubt I'll ever use the system myself even though I funded it (Clarke's third law goes best with a dollop of Fudge), but I will probably snag Torment: Tides of Numenera (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4NkADMQwzg) when it ships. It's so sexy.

Quote from: SuperbrightGM Intrusion is probably among the most controversial elements of the game and I haven't really heard of anyone coming up with an effective houseruling on it.

I haven't actually read the system proper, so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but from the critiques I've read here, it seems like separating your meta-points and your character-advancement-points would be a really good start. Then it's basically a FATE-like meta-points system, where you get meta-points when the GM messes around with you and then you can spend them to refuse that messing around or reroll the dice or make decrees or all of that good stuff, and the whole thing is entirely unrelated to your long-term character advancement.

Exactly. There is currently no incentive to use an XP to reroll an action. There is every incentive to accept intrusions, because, as written, playing your character according to the competencies with which they were designed actually delays advancement. You could throw out this little resource management mini-system and the game would work better.

Alternatively, separate Intrusions from discoveries (the other, more traditional source of XP). Intrusions generate narrative capital, discoveries propel character advancement.

My disagreement with the meta-point system is that, from a storytelling perspective, accepting Intrusions seems like a perfectly reasonable way of advancing your character both in terms of progressing up the tiers and in obtaining benefits. Having gone back and looked at the section on Intrusions, I don't actually hate the system as much as I thought I did, though that comes with a big caveat that it not be used to try and twist the knife when the players' backs are to the wall. It recommends throwing Intrusions at players when they're attempting tasks that should be automatic successes, which seems to preclude life-or-death situations.

Quote from: SuperbrightMy disagreement with the meta-point system is that, from a storytelling perspective, accepting Intrusions seems like a perfectly reasonable way of advancing your character both in terms of progressing up the tiers and in obtaining benefits.

Agreed. The subsystem as it stands is almost perfectly fine.

Quote from: ibidthat comes with a big caveat that it not be used to try and twist the knife when the players' backs are to the wall

There's the rub. GMs can do this whenever they want. Players can be punished for refusing. It's institutionalised railroading. The fact that this kind of GM tyranny is written into the fabric of the game is terrible and Monte Cook should feel terrible for including it.

Pretty much all roleplaying games have it written somewhere that regardless of the rules, whatever the gamemaster says, goes: Rule 0, Storyteller fiat, etc. One of the biggest gambles in roleplaying (at least for me) is that the GM is going to be a tyrannical railroader who fudges dice and all you can do is accept it. I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of even if the GM tries to screw you, you at least have the opportunity to profit off of it, and I'd imagine the extra XP would be an incentive for players to cooperate to overcome new challenges. I feel like it could definitely do with some clarification on what Intrusions can and cannot do, like how many extra levels of difficulty can be added to a challenge, but I don't see it as game-breaking on its face. Then again, I enjoy the setting and the rest of the system enough that I'm inclined to overlook the one glaring wart until it becomes a hassle.

Edit: the book does give potential Intrusions for the various character foci as well as creatures, but I'm not sure what a good houserule for limiting the former would be.

It's in no way game breaking. It just adds nothing of value at all. Intrusions are elegant and an improvement on traditional levelling without saying "and if you don't, it'll go bad for you".

Keep the carrot, ditch the stick. It's the easiest houserule in the history of houserules.

Quote from: Theopteryx
It's in no way game breaking. It just adds nothing of value at all. Intrusions are elegant and an improvement on traditional levelling without saying "and if you don't, it'll go bad for you".

Keep the carrot, ditch the stick. It's the easiest houserule in the history of houserules.

Fair enough assessment. If I can actually get some people on board for a game, I might try that out.

Any opinion on the Foci and/or the numenera themselves?

Quote from: Superbrightthat comes with a big caveat that it not be used to try and twist the knife when the players' backs are to the wall. It recommends throwing Intrusions at players when they're attempting tasks that should be automatic successes, which seems to preclude life-or-death situations.

Meh. Where's the fun in that? :grin:

If the players are just going about their business and the GM starts throwing complications into that, it often feels like the GM is bored or just being a jerk. I mean, seriously, this is just random background stuff I'm supposed to be good at, why are you messing with me? I feel like when their backs are to the wall is the exact time to start throwing in monkey wrenches, because that's when things get exciting. As long as you don't overdo it, of course. I remember in a recent game of Asura, one of the players had just gotten hit by the bad guy's lightning bolt and taken some heavy damage. The other one was about ready to launch this big Prana-powered attack to try to turn the tide... and that is when I threw a compel in there. 

I never even understand this.  There are enough times the pcs leave themselves open in obvious ways....the idea is to make it look and feel as if it is their mistake and lack of planning.  If they plan and perform perfectly and you throw mechanics-based shit in their way. Then...yeah, you'll come across as a jerk gm.

Quote from: SuperbrightAny opinion on the Foci and/or the numenera themselves?

Between Foci and Descriptors, there's a lot of interesting characterisation built into the system. A group of four might consist of:

A Stealthy Glaive who Wears a Sheen of Ice
A Mechanical Nano who Fights With Panache
A Charming Jack who Murders
A Rugged Nano who Rides the Lightning

I have no idea if its balanced, but it certainly sounds cool.

The numenera look decent so far, except for the cypher dangers. If you're going to include easily acquired disposable 'magic items' you need to come up with a more elegant counter to the players' hoarding impulse than "oops, they exploded". That's cheap. If I want a mountain of catseye and "knowledge enhancements", let me make my damn mountain. When I gobble them all at once I can OD or something.

Quote from: Monte CookThe ancient people of the Ninth World's past are so far beyond us, so alien to us, that we are more like the Ninth Worlders in our level of understanding. The people of those prior worlds commanded the very forces of the universe. They moved planets and suns, traveled to other galaxies, and explored other universes.

The more I encounter allusions to the Ninth World's precursors, the more I wish the book was about one of those precursors.

Quote from: sparkletwistMeh. Where's the fun in that? grin

If the players are just going about their business and the GM starts throwing complications into that, it often feels like the GM is bored or just being a jerk. I mean, seriously, this is just random background stuff I'm supposed to be good at, why are you messing with me? I feel like when their backs are to the wall is the exact time to start throwing in monkey wrenches, because that's when things get exciting. As long as you don't overdo it, of course. I remember in a recent game of Asura, one of the players had just gotten hit by the bad guy's lightning bolt and taken some heavy damage. The other one was about ready to launch this big Prana-powered attack to try to turn the tide... and that is when I threw a compel in there.

Excellent point! Let me rephrase: ideally, I think GM Intrusion (which I'm increasingly convinced is the worst-named game mechanic ever) would be to present challenges for the players to rise to or at the very least to keep them on their toes, not to hammer them down or keep them on too strictly-defined a path. The obvious exception to this is the chance for automatic Intrusion on a natural 1: if you botch a roll going up against a cragworm, I'd have no problem with having it swallow you alive.

Quote from: theopteryxI have no idea if its balanced, but it certainly sounds cool.

With the glaring exception of Wields Power With Precision, which is a great steaming pile of flavorless stat-bonuses munchkinism, they all seem reasonably balanced. Obviously some Foci are more suited to certain character types (nanos will likely get the most out of Bears a Halo of Fire) but even the least flashy and combat-oriented ones still seem like they could be put to great use by canny players.

Quote from: theopteryxThe numenera look decent so far, except for the cypher dangers. If you're going to include easily acquired disposable 'magic items' you need to come up with a more elegant counter to the players' hoarding impulse than "oops, they exploded". That's cheap. If I want a mountain of catseye and "knowledge enhancements", let me make my damn mountain. When I gobble them all at once I can OD or something.

On one hand, I definitely see the wisdom in putting limits on how much of a hoard the characters can accumulate in such an item-saturated, quintessentially "Monte Haul" type of game. Having players saving all of their fancy items for the majority of the game and then spending them all at once runs the risk of totally upsetting the entire flow of the game, especially some of the horrifyingly powerful ones like singularity grenades. But I do agree that it could probably do with a more elegant solution than them randomly exploding and if I ran the game as written, I'd definitely use the -10 for less-volatile cyphers. I would definitely need some hands-on experience to see whether or not the players would be likely to abuse the system before I'd consider houseruling any major changes.

Quote from: theopteryxThe more I encounter allusions to the Ninth World's precursors, the more I wish the book was about one of those precursors.

I can't even begin to imagine what a nightmare running, much less writing, a coherent game set in a Kardashev III civilization would be, to say nothing of a IV or V one: a transdimensional, transhuman empire that can control the very fundamental mechanisms of a causal universe doesn't seem like it'd feature many relatable characters. I like that he describes them in broad, uncertain terms and leaves their ultimate fate up to the GM, since it adds a healthy dose of mystery and frees me up to focus on their cool toys without having to define how the civilization itself actually functioned.

I hope I'm not coming across as too argumentative! You actually raise a lot of valid points, and while I don't necessarily agree with all of them, I'm enjoying the discussion! For the rest of you, if all of this hasn't scared you from the idea of trying it out, let me know.

Quote from: SuperbrightI can't even begin to imagine what a nightmare running, much less writing, a coherent game set in a Kardashev III civilization would be

There's nothing especially difficult about gaming within a Type III civilisation. Games about the movers and shakers of a Type III civilisation are a different matter entirely - then we're talking Archailects (http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/49cfe7a37b5b3) or the Q (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Q).

Quote from: SuperbrightFor the rest of you, if all of this hasn't scared you from the idea of trying it out, let me know.

I really do hope you get a game off the ground. The stuff I've mentioned so far is either trivial or easily houseruled and shouldn't deter newcomers.

It's probably worth extolling a few of Numenera's mechanical virtues now. I won't do that, because there's no way I'm going to actually peruse a 400 page rulebook that isn't Burning Wheel. (Honestly! I know you need to convince the readers that they've gotten their money's work. It's still a waste of text)

But did I mention the art? Oh I did? Well it's still awesome.

Quote from: theopteryxIt's probably worth extolling a few of Numenera's mechanical virtues now. I won't do that, because there's no way I'm going to actually peruse a 400 page rulebook that isn't Burning Wheel.

The Player's Guide, which I believe only contains the rules for character creation and the basics of playing the game, is only 64 pages: the majority of those 400 pages is setting and GM advice.

Anyways, for those of you who might be interested, here's a basic rundown of the Numenera system:

Character creation is a streamlined process of filling in the statement "I am an adjective noun who verbs." The adjective is your descriptor, the noun is your type, and the verb is your focus.

There are three character types: glaives, nanos, and jacks. Glaives and nanos are essentially fighters and wizards, but it's worth noting that despite often being equated to rogues, jacks are more generalist skill-monkeys with access to a smattering of the glaive's fighting moves and the nano's esoteries.

Descriptors like "charming", "graceful", and "strong-willed" add to one of your character's stat pools and their trained skills, with a few also adding inabilities that raise the difficulty of certain skill rolls.

Now, the foci are where you get to really define your characters. They're like a feat tree that not only grows in power with your characters, but also provides a connection to a fellow party members and suggested effects for critical successes. Some of them are standard enough roleplaying fare, like Murders, Masters Weaponry, and Works the Back Alleys, but there are much more esoteric ones, like Bears a Halo of Fire, Controls Gravity, and Fuses Flesh and Metal. As has been mentioned before, almost none of the foci are restricted to a certain character type.

The system itself is rather elegantly simple. Every character has three stat pools: Might, Speed, and Intellect. In addition to acting as your character's health, you can spend points from your pools to decrease the difficulty of challenges and to activate special abilities. Effort is the limit on how many difficulty levels you can reduce this way and a stat's Edge subtracts from the cost of spending points on Effort. Being Trained in a skill like Climbing, Jumping, or History also reduces the difficulty for related challenges by one; being Specialized increases this reduction to two.

Every challenge the characters will face, from a locked door to a hungry cragworm, has a Difficulty from 1 to 10 with a resulting target number between 3 and 30. The players (never the GM!) roll a d20 and if the result exceeds the target number, they succeed. It's literally as simple as that.

Characters don't have levels like in most d20-based games. There are 6 Tiers that they can rise through, increasing their stat pools and gaining skills and special abilities, but the increase in power isn't steep enough to ever fundamentally change the game. You're not going from a muck-raking peasant to a dragon-punting man-god; even at Tier 1, you're already competent adventurer.

That's a basic summary off the top of my head, so there's probably a few things I've overlooked. As you can probably tell, I adore the simplicity and transparency of the system, as well as the flexibility the player has to shape their character to fit their particular vision and play style.

Quote from: SuperbrightEvery challenge the characters will face, from a locked door to a hungry cragworm, has a Difficulty from 1 to 10 with a resulting target number between 3 and 30

This is my favourite part of the system.

I hope Monte releases the Numenera SRD.