So I have been really trying to nail down the details of how magic works in Cad Goleor, both because I want to start including it in the Geas (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,209945.0.html) thread, and because it will affect my novel. I don't want this thread to be entirely about ME, though. I'd like to talk about interesting magic systems across the guild, or even particularly interesting ones you've heard or read about. So feel free to share on that front as well.
So far, I have it as follows: Magic as seen in the isles basically functions in one of two ways. Either one intensively studies runes, their mysteries, and their formulation, and has thereby discovered how to tap their power, (Druids, Bards, and on a lesser degree the magical smiths) or they possess a fae/spirit companion who is the essential source of their power (witch).
Runes: Runes are in essence, the language of creation. It is unclear whether the gods themselves actually invented them, or if in fact they were merely DISCOVERED and implemented by the gods. In a modern mindset, Runes can be thought of as analogous to programming language for computers. Those who know them and what they mean can "hack" the system, causing those with their knowledge to become the fantasy equivalent of Tank from The Matrix. They are the ones who can divine knowledge others would lack, and unlock resources otherwise inaccessible.
Druids
Runes form the basis of Druidic magic, but memorizing the symbols in not enough. Druids study for decades to acquire the true knowledge of the mysteries of the runes. They look to plants, animals, weather patterns, and the stars to acquire and retain this information. When the time comes, they conduct lengthy rituals to in essence open a channel to effect change upon their world. Druidic magic is very formalized and intellectual, but they ensure to stay grounded in the world around them.
How do druids acquire magic: Elder druids will instruct initiates in the runes, their meanings and mysteries, and it is up to the student to take those lessons out into the world and experience the mysteries in action. As the student grasps and understands the forces at work, and the ways in which the Runic Code shapes the world around them, they learn how to use these runes to reshape the world, a piece at a time.
How it works: Because the Runic Code, (Runicode?) is the druid's power interface, it is the basis of what they do. Druids must spend time every day in quiet contemplation of nature, preferably outdoors in order to orient their minds and consciousness with the rhythms, flow, and the patterns of the runes in the world. Druids seek out places of higher energy, where Ley Lines converge, which are marked with age-old runestones. These places facilitate druidic magic. The circle is a sacred space, analogous to the world itself. Their magic is ritual-based and takes place inside circles. In a pinch, a circle drawn on the ground, with the runes inscribed inside can form a makeshift sacred space. There is often an offering or sacrifice which is given to power the spell. The stronger the magic needed, the greater the sacrifice.
Bards
Bards study in the same academies as druids, and learn the runes in a similar way. However, bards are much more "people" oriented than the druids, and their magic is more focused. Bards latch on the language of magic, and apply it to the magic of language. Whether by song or simple poetry, bards learn to evoke magic that works on the mind and spirit of his targets. They are great orators who can bring joy, laughter, grief, pain, or panic. They can destroy a person (in more ways than one) with their words, and can entrance and influence large groups of people.
How bards acquire their magic: Their core training begins with the knowledge of the runes, just as the druid's does. However, because their methods, and often times the kinds of magic they wish to weave are so different, after the basics, Bardic and Druidic educations soon diverge. Bards spend much time in the presence of other people, studying their habits, their desires, their goals. Bards must be in tune with the psyche of the human being. They extensively study history and legends, and forms of rhyme, meter, and poetic devices that can help them to hone their craft.
How it works: Bards take their knowledge of the runes and apply them to poems and songs. Because her magic is entirely interpersonal, it does not need to echo through the entire fabric of the cosmos, but only in the mind of her audience. Their songs and poems become for them what the magic circle is for a druid: their interface with the magic, and their way of changing things. The mind of the hearer is the world they are changing. These "Rune Songs" require a great deal more subtlety to function. Repetition becomes the vehicle by which the magic sticks: a bard song will often have a repeating refrain which always includes the sounds made by the runes they wish to make use of. In many cases they may also make use of assonance and alliteration to increase the effect. Bards often like to mask their magic in clever wordplay, which somewhat disguises their intent, especially if their song is meant to be a form of attack. This way, the target may not realize what the bard has done until it is too late, but a clever listener with a working knowledge of the runes may be able to work out what the bard is up to.
Witches
Witches work differently, and this makes them something of outsiders in the sense of magic. Their power comes from their close interaction with their "familiar spirit" which are often fae who take on animal form, or whose glamour makes them invisible to humans. The knowledge of their close associations with fae and the otherworld makes them suspect to much of society, regardless of what the witch's true motives and intentions might be. Much of the human world is hostile to the fae, and indeed, many fae are hostile to humans too.
How witches acquire their power: Witches strike a deal with a fae, though sometimes the relationship can be forced. A person can seek out a fae to become their familiar spirit, or a fae can desire such a bond with a mortal. Perhaps the fae desires this means of influencing the mortal world, or perhaps they are so starved for this world and for human emotion that they are willing to trade it for servitude. Regardless, the fae spirit feeds off of the witch's emotions. Some may eat her fear, or her anger, or her joy. Over time, the relationship will put a strain on her sanity, leading to eccentric and erratic behaviors, as well as a degree of emotional instability, changes to disposition, or inability to feel certain emotions.
How it works: In the case of a witch, the true magic is worked by her familiar spirit on her command. The precise nature of her power varies based on the spirit in question.
I like this!
I do wonder, though, if the magic is based on an actual language ("code" to "hack," to use your analogy) then is there a type of spellcaster whose main goal is to work directly with these runes? I mean, druids are the most intellectual sort of spellcaster, but even they are still performing rotes and rituals and attempting to understand the runes via their manifestations rather than studying them directly. I'm envisioning the archetypal D&D Wizard, sort of, who spends a lot of time digging through old books and performing magical experiments in a workshop. Your approach suggests there is a certain logic to magic, so it seems like someone would try to figure that out via various alchemy-like methodologies-- then again, perhaps this overly scientific and drawing too much upon the Greek "natural philosophy" tradition that this world might not have. Or maybe it would and it's something else to think about.
It does make me wonder if my idea of Sorcha doesn't clash a bit with what you're intending for the setting. She's a witch, and she does commune with spirits and such, but she's also grounded in some of the more "scientific" aspects of magic that, from reading this, I don't know if they're a traditional witchy purview. This may be vestigial Pathfinder influence: Witches tend to be intellectual because Int is their primary stat, so that's how I envisioned Sorcha. For example, she has a lot of esoteric knowledge about various topics, and tends to incorporate the closest thing the setting has to pharmacology in the brewing and mixing of her potions and such. It's definitely still magical in its quality, using various dried animal parts and herbs and other stuff rather than technobabble chemicals, but I think in general, there's still this "mad scientist" vibe to Sorcha that I'm not sure reconciles with what you intend to be the canonical Cad Goleor witch. Maybe this is worth considering, or maybe she's just uniquely talented.
Magic is one thing that I really struggle with in my own works. It also tends to become one of the most definining aspects in any setting that includes it. I think a very important (and overlooked) question regarding magic in fiction is: to what extent should it be explained? The more light you shed on the nature and workings of magic, the easier it will be to craft game rules to handle it and to maintain internal consistency of the setting. But the more you explain it, the more you risk eroding it's potential to invoke the feel of wonder and weirdness, which IMO is a vital factor in making magic be, well, magical.
In a setting intended for both a RPG and a novel you may have to balance the needs of one medium against the needs of the other.
What you've written there so far doesn't look like a bad start to me. I'm not quite sold on the idea of matching the bard's songs/poetry with runes, though. It comes across as a bit forced. Couldn't the "magic of language" simply be a part of the bardic tradition, independent from the druidic system, while the fact that bards do learn some basic things about runes is simply due to their role as keepers of lore?
Quote from: GhostmanBut the more you explain it, the more you risk eroding it's potential to invoke the feel of wonder and weirdness, which IMO is a vital factor in making magic be, well, magical.
This is quite true. Or, as a popular corollary to Clarke's Third Law goes, "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." :grin:
With its space-opera themes, this is a big concern for me in Asura, too; I want Prana Powers to remain something a bit mysterious and outside of the realm of comprehension, rather than fitting fully into the "scientific" model.
Quote from: sparkletwist
I like this!
I do wonder, though, if the magic is based on an actual language ("code" to "hack," to use your analogy) then is there a type of spellcaster whose main goal is to work directly with these runes? I mean, druids are the most intellectual sort of spellcaster, but even they are still performing rotes and rituals and attempting to understand the runes via their manifestations rather than studying them directly. I'm envisioning the archetypal D&D Wizard, sort of, who spends a lot of time digging through old books and performing magical experiments in a workshop. Your approach suggests there is a certain logic to magic, so it seems like someone would try to figure that out via various alchemy-like methodologies-- then again, perhaps this overly scientific and drawing too much upon the Greek "natural philosophy" tradition that this world might not have. Or maybe it would and it's something else to think about.
It does make me wonder if my idea of Sorcha doesn't clash a bit with what you're intending for the setting. She's a witch, and she does commune with spirits and such, but she's also grounded in some of the more "scientific" aspects of magic that, from reading this, I don't know if they're a traditional witchy purview. This may be vestigial Pathfinder influence: Witches tend to be intellectual because Int is their primary stat, so that's how I envisioned Sorcha. For example, she has a lot of esoteric knowledge about various topics, and tends to incorporate the closest thing the setting has to pharmacology in the brewing and mixing of her potions and such. It's definitely still magical in its quality, using various dried animal parts and herbs and other stuff rather than technobabble chemicals, but I think in general, there's still this "mad scientist" vibe to Sorcha that I'm not sure reconciles with what you intend to be the canonical Cad Goleor witch. Maybe this is worth considering, or maybe she's just uniquely talented.
There is nothing intrinsic to the witch that forbids her from being intellectual. It is simply that being intellectual is inherently part of the job description for druids. In fact, if someone were to make an actual CHOICE to be a witch, then knowing a lot of things about herbalism, magical and fairy lore would be a VERY GOOD thing. Knowing who and what you are dealing with is just good practice.
Regarding what you say about spellcasters who "work with the runes directly," via just experimenting, I think it very possible that there would be such a person, but not that there would be enough of them to want to talk about it as a magic system with any tradition or institution. Though in general, without the long study of the runes' manifestations which unlock the deeper mysteries, you would just be making scratches on wood, without much direction. The knowledge, ritual, and all of that helps to facilitate making the code work instead of just getting a string of nonsense sent back.
Quote from: GhostmanWhat you've written there so far doesn't look like a bad start to me. I'm not quite sold on the idea of matching the bard's songs/poetry with runes, though. It comes across as a bit forced. Couldn't the "magic of language" simply be a part of the bardic tradition, independent from the druidic system, while the fact that bards do learn some basic things about runes is simply due to their role as keepers of lore?
I am a bit surprised that you say it sounds forced, since it made perfect sense to me. Maybe I haven't explained it properly (I was a bit rushed on the OP) or I just need to really refine the idea a bit more. It came out of the concept of the Norse Galdrs, wherein runes and their sounds would be chanted so as to power the runes, and/or magic. I liked the idea in principle, but I didn't want it to just be chanting sounds. With bards, I want beautiful language. But when it comes to having a magical alphabet, that just BEGS to be applied to language, and if anyone is going to have language-based magic, it would be bards.
In the culture I am setting these in, words are seen as a rather magical thing on their own. They are wonderous things that can turn an enemy into a friend, can express needs and desires, and can accomplish or prevent just about anything. Bards in a society like this exemplify this, and take it to a whole other level. This culture is at most semi-literate. The runes are pretty much the only alphabet they have. They are very fond of oral tradition, and most people are afraid to put anything in writing, fearing the finality of it, and fearing sending a message to the gods that they don't understand.
The Bards would be the people who can convert the runes to...ok I'm starting to see what you mean.
I love the idea of rune songs that revolve around the rune sounds. But I am having some trouble justifying why these visual magical symbols would be applicable to a thoroughly oral method of magic-making.
Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium
I love the idea of rune songs that revolve around the rune sounds. But I am having some trouble justifying why these visual magical symbols would be applicable to a thoroughly oral method of magic-making.
That's along the lines I was thinking. I think what actually makes it seem awkward is the direction of conversion: first you've got the runes, being a representation of a language of creation, and then from these runes you've derived ways to manipulate reality by oral means. It might make more sense to treat the language of creation as a common root, from which branch on one hand the runes, on the other hand the bardic orational skills. That way there would still be a connection between the two, just not a direct one.
Wow. Really great start, sh! I have a few comments and questions.
It seems to me that the bardic/Druidic magic really revolves around the idea of creation. Druids use something few people can do - read/write - to manipulate the language of creation. Bards affect people with their own artistic creations - something else few people are often talented enough to do. Perhaps approaching it from that creation-centric aspect could help unify the two magics and even open up some other ideas (master craftsmen create the same as a bard is a master poet or musician).
On witches, i like that they are different. Can they have multiple familiars? Are the familiars always traditionally small animals, or could they have a wolf or bear or horse familiar?
Lastly, don't worry so much about over explaining magic to yourself. As the creator/author/gm, you have to know how it works to keep it consistent. That doesn't mean you have to reveal everything in the fluff. Heck, make sure there are conflicting interpretations and oddities. Look at all the religions irl + science that all have explanations for natural phenomena. It's the same thing with magic. Lots of traditions and reasonings, but they could all be wrong. I think that's really the key to making it mysterious - making sure people in the setting don't know all the ins and outs.
Quote from: HumaboutIt seems to me that the bardic/Druidic magic really revolves around the idea of creation. Druids use something few people can do - read/write - to manipulate the language of creation. Bards affect people with their own artistic creations - something else few people are often talented enough to do. Perhaps approaching it from that creation-centric aspect could help unify the two magics and even open up some other ideas (master craftsmen create the same as a bard is a master poet or musician).
Well, this is interesting to me as a concept. It hints at the "Smith" class I had in mind as the "magical crafter" type. Not true spellcasters in the traditional sense, but definitely creators who can access magical forces. To clarify, when I called the class "Smith" I do not mean to say that they all work entirely (or even primarily) at traditional blacksmithing or with metal at all. They could just as likely work with wood, leather, or stone. "Smith" is just being used as an evocative term for a craftsman and "maker" type. I had envisioned them as being able to create powerful objects and trinkets. I figured that they could make the weapons capable of harming fae, or imbuing them with special qualities (though no +1 weapons). If the language of creation is a thing in general, then perhaps there might be those who in creating objects have learned to tap into this language in another way. Some may be able to evoke powers by inscribing runes.
Actually, thinking about it again, I wonder if these smiths could potentially fit in, at least somewhat to what sparkletwist mentioned before about people who experiment and work with runes directly. I wonder if the Smiths may have been a sort of guild society that got their hands on the runes and just started experimenting, and seeing what happened. It's not what I originally had in mind, but now it is interesting me more. Perhaps by trial and error, and repeated effort, they were able to hammer out (pun intended) ways to incorporate the runes, and perhaps magical forces in general, into their objects.
Of course, I still have to rethink the way bards work. I really loved the idea of "Rune Songs" but I am not sure I can make it work without being awkward. I might be better off having the bards use a different form of magic altogether--something based in sound, maybe focused on vibrations? Perhaps they work in a more pseudo-pythagorean style, where it's mathematical, and they focus on resonance, musical notes, numerically structured meters, and so forth as their means of structuring their spells, to an eye that all the world is made of vibrating energy, and that using mathematics and vibrations, they can change the world. That could be pretty interesting to play with too.
Quote from: HumaboutOn witches, i like that they are different. Can they have multiple familiars? Are the familiars always traditionally small animals, or could they have a wolf or bear or horse familiar?
Multiple familiars...well, this seems to be the model Sorcha is based on in the current game, as I believe at least one of her powers was granted by a banshee, but others were granted by different spirits. So, perhaps this would be the case. It seems a bit strange, but I suppose a witch could be surrounded by a number of spirits. In terms of animals, I am now imagining a witch who goes everywhere accompanied by a cat, a hawk, a pig, a donkey, and a fox.
Regarding the size of the animals, I wanted to point out the other option in my OP that sometimes the spirits are invisible (and perhaps incorporeal as well, or partially so) so it wouldn't ALWAYS be animals at all. That said, I know of nothing IN PRINCIPLE that would make a larger animal form like a wolf or a bear impossible, though traveling and spending time in towns might be...interesting, to say the least. Though I have considered a horse familiar before now, and so I am inclined to say that yes, larger animals are possible. Having your familiar take such a shape may be helpful in some circumstances, but would also prove problematic in others, which is not really a problem. It just leads to plot and/or roleplaying complications, which can be fun on their own.
Quote from: HumaboutLastly, don't worry so much about over explaining magic to yourself. As the creator/author/gm, you have to know how it works to keep it consistent. That doesn't mean you have to reveal everything in the fluff. Heck, make sure there are conflicting interpretations and oddities. Look at all the religions irl + science that all have explanations for natural phenomena. It's the same thing with magic. Lots of traditions and reasonings, but they could all be wrong. I think that's really the key to making it mysterious - making sure people in the setting don't know all the ins and outs.
You make a good point. Misinformation, incorrect (or partially incorrect) theories, and differing opinions are all things that can make the setting feel alive. So if they are applied to magic, then that gives ways to preserve mystery.
Depending on the sort of magical mechanics you are developing, they might work for both bards and druids. If, frex, you have a list of nouns and verbs (call them consonants and vowels) that get mixed to form effects, there is no reason that system (and even the traditional meanings of the lexicon) can't work for both casters. A druid might enscribe Sail to evoke the Willow as part of a divination spell (since Willows are associated with imagination, intuition, and vision). A Bard might use consider those three concepts a group and still use the same "consonant" in his song.
Also, even if they aren't truly rune songs, "Runesong" is too awesome to throw away as a term.
ISN'T IT!?
My original model of the bardic Runesong involved speaking the runic syllables aloud, though this required a special magical "inspiration." I based this idea off of something I'd read about the Welsh Awen concept, where it included the sacred vowel sounds, without which one could not properly speak with power. So this would be a subtle difference that only someone who has undergone the training and "unlocked the mystery" as it were would be able to do.
Now, I am having just a little trouble comprehending your model exactly. Are you referring to combining "consonant" and "vowel" runes together to form magic words? Or are you talking about strings of whole words? Because the synechdoche is confusing me.
I was also thinking more about the mathematical side of things, and wondering if, perhaps, the bard wanted to invoke the 18th rune of the set, they might compose a poem that was 18 lines long, or whose stanzas were rhymed couplets of 9 syllables each, such that each stanza had 18 syllables. Or both, for that matter. In game play this could potentially pose an issue where runes later in the set might take more rounds than those earlier in the set, even if the magic isn't as powerful. Though that could just be abstracted or handwaved away.
Quote from: Ghostman
Magic is one thing that I really struggle with in my own works. It also tends to become one of the most definining aspects in any setting that includes it. I think a very important (and overlooked) question regarding magic in fiction is: to what extent should it be explained? The more light you shed on the nature and workings of magic, the easier it will be to craft game rules to handle it and to maintain internal consistency of the setting. But the more you explain it, the more you risk eroding it's potential to invoke the feel of wonder and weirdness, which IMO is a vital factor in making magic be, well, magical.
In a setting intended for both a RPG and a novel you may have to balance the needs of one medium against the needs of the other.
What you've written there so far doesn't look like a bad start to me. I'm not quite sold on the idea of matching the bard's songs/poetry with runes, though. It comes across as a bit forced. Couldn't the "magic of language" simply be a part of the bardic tradition, independent from the druidic system, while the fact that bards do learn some basic things about runes is simply due to their role as keepers of lore?
In my estimation, this needed a plus one.
The more you can make the magic more defined and more real to the casters and have the rules support and synergize with it. I have 3 players who specialize in playing casters in GS, because they really get into this synergy.
Quote from: SHI was also thinking more about the mathematical side of things, and wondering if, perhaps, the bard wanted to invoke the 18th rune of the set, they might compose a poem that was 18 lines long, or whose stanzas were rhymed couplets of 9 syllables each, such that each stanza had 18 syllables. Or both, for that matter. In game play this could potentially pose an issue where runes later in the set might take more rounds than those earlier in the set, even if the magic isn't as powerful. Though that could just be abstracted or handwaved away.
Maybe you need a more additive formulaic situation, where more powerful effects need more runes, and the goal is to cleverly insert the proper runic sounds into the proper format.
My example mechanic (take it or leave it) would have a set of nouns/consonants to represent aspects of reality - Animal, Time, Spirit, Mind, Fire, etc. and Verbs/Vowels to represents ways you affect reality - Strengthen, Weaken, Create, Communicate, Move, etc. Any one word/letter/tree could have multiple meanings, permitting for a really rich and varied magic system capable of producing effects limited only by the player's imagination. Frex, a banishment might be a Destroy Planar Links to break an entity's connection to this world or a Control Mind to force the entity to leave. As for time to cast and any sort of magic point resource to spend, I leave that to you to tweak.
As far as implementation goes, that's purely fluff that this sort of system can support. Is a druid drawing runes? Is a bard improvising a song that evokes this effect? Is a witch calling the energies of her familiar and sending them into the world? It can all use the same basic mechanic and be flavored to your liking. You could have different casters use different sets of verbs and nouns (different alphabets, etc.) or you could vary casting times and resource costs, or both. Personally, I'd keep the same alphabet for bards and druids, just so they feel more linked through tradition.
And seriously, don't ditch "Runesong." Contradictions make settings feel alive.
Quote from: Humabout
My example mechanic (take it or leave it) would have a set of nouns/consonants to represent aspects of reality - Animal, Time, Spirit, Mind, Fire, etc. and Verbs/Vowels to represents ways you affect reality - Strengthen, Weaken, Create, Communicate, Move, etc. Any one word/letter/tree could have multiple meanings, permitting for a really rich and varied magic system capable of producing effects limited only by the player's imagination. Frex, a banishment might be a Destroy Planar Links to break an entity's connection to this world or a Control Mind to force the entity to leave. As for time to cast and any sort of magic point resource to spend, I leave that to you to tweak.
A verb + noun based, semi-freeform magic system is what Ars Magica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Magica), an RPG focused on medieval magicians, uses. It would be a good source to review for ideas on how to mechanically balance such a system.
Quote from: Humabout
My example mechanic (take it or leave it) would have a set of nouns/consonants to represent aspects of reality - Animal, Time, Spirit, Mind, Fire, etc. and Verbs/Vowels to represents ways you affect reality - Strengthen, Weaken, Create, Communicate, Move, etc. Any one word/letter/tree could have multiple meanings, permitting for a really rich and varied magic system capable of producing effects limited only by the player's imagination. Frex, a banishment might be a Destroy Planar Links to break an entity's connection to this world or a Control Mind to force the entity to leave. As for time to cast and any sort of magic point resource to spend, I leave that to you to tweak.
As far as implementation goes, that's purely fluff that this sort of system can support. Is a druid drawing runes? Is a bard improvising a song that evokes this effect? Is a witch calling the energies of her familiar and sending them into the world? It can all use the same basic mechanic and be flavored to your liking. You could have different casters use different sets of verbs and nouns (different alphabets, etc.) or you could vary casting times and resource costs, or both. Personally, I'd keep the same alphabet for bards and druids, just so they feel more linked through tradition.
And seriously, don't ditch "Runesong." Contradictions make settings feel alive.
I hadn't thought of separating the types of meanings of runes along vowel/consonant lines before. Very interesting. I might play with this for a while & see how I like it. It would really limit the amount my runes could draw on existing Elder Futhark meanings, (not necessarily a bad thing) in that most of the vowels in futhark are typically representing things like "homeland," "god," and "ice." More nouns than verbs, but perhaps I could tweak them. The "Ice" could indicate "stopping" or "freezing" of something. One of them is actually a "Horse" rune, so that would could be "speeding," "sending," or something along those lines. The U rune typically means "strength." Now, I could technically stretch this to something along the lines of applying force, but that is a concept covered by the "th" rune in futhark.
"O" I think I would have to do something else with altogether, since I have no idea how to make "the ancestral homeland" into a verb. I mean, it has some clannish & community connotations, but I still don't know how to apply that.
Another thing I could do if I wanted to have a wider range of "verb vowels" would be to include runes for more of the combined vowel sounds, so, for instance, and "ae" rune, an "ia," or "oi" for instance. Or, since I am using a lot of Gaelic influence, have different runes for "a" and for "á." Although this might be getting both too complex and too rooted in the assumed language of the human groups in the setting, and not enough in a metaphysical language of creation.
Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium
"O" I think I would have to do something else with altogether, since I have no idea how to make "the ancestral homeland" into a verb. I mean, it has some clannish & community connotations, but I still don't know how to apply that.
Bringing and coming together and binding together as well?
Quote from: HippopotamusDundee
Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium
"O" I think I would have to do something else with altogether, since I have no idea how to make "the ancestral homeland" into a verb. I mean, it has some clannish & community connotations, but I still don't know how to apply that.
Bringing and coming together and binding together as well?
Hmm, ok. Well, binding is certainly something that comes up in a lot of magical idea, but that's usually in terms of "you must to this" form of "bound," and is often applied to spirits you want to enslave. Though I suppose if we are getting creative "binding" as a magical word could apply to any magical link you are forging.
So that would be
A--Command? (the rune can mean both "god" and "communication", so commanding makes the most sense to me)
E--Send/Move
I--Freeze
O--Bind
U--Force?
Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium
Hmm, ok. Well, binding is certainly something that comes up in a lot of magical idea, but that's usually in terms of "you must to this" form of "bound," and is often applied to spirits you want to enslave. Though I suppose if we are getting creative "binding" as a magical word could apply to any magical link you are forging.
I was thinking "binding" more in a permanency sense - the main power would be that of attraction and drawing forces together and fashioning discrete elements into a whole and the secondary power would be strengthening and enforcing existing versions of that (like the social contracts that bind the family/tribe/village, for example).
Another option is to have each rune have multiple meanings, possibly both as nouns and verbs. You could have a winter/cold/freeze rune.
That may end up being a better way of going about it. The idea of dividing it along vowel/consonant lines is interesting, but I think it might make things a little difficult, overburdening the vowels, or severely limiting the number of verbs available.
Probably true. I'm largely throwing mud at the wall to see what works for you. The system I usually use has a handful of broad domains and five or six "actions" that combine for different effects. It works really well and is insanely flexible. For you, having the waters nice and muddy probably suits best, so I'd guess letting any letter work as whatever a player/PC can justify it to be might best support the feel. It'll also make magic feel very mysterious, since there isn't any one proper way to work magic. It really will be an art (which harkens back to the creativity/creation thing)
Ok, playing with a Noun/Verb system for runes. This is definitely still subject to change. For now I am abandoning the idea that verbs and nouns were divided based on Consonants and Vowels, and instead just decided that there are some runes that are "Verb runes" and others that are "Noun Runes." I am currently giving each rune three somewhat related meanings for constructing spells. These can be constructed in different ways. Some work best by combining more than two Runes together. In theory, if an enemy spellcaster were preparing their magic, you could attempt to stop them quickly by invoking hail on it's own, but this would be prone to "misfire," as this could just as easily be interpreted by the cosmic system as "slow ME down" or something else altogether. Hail fiu (Disrupt Magic) would be better, as it is more specific. Alternatively, you could use Each fiu eo (Send Magic Reversal) if you want to turn an enemy's spell back on them.
Magic cannot spontaneously create something out of nothing. You cannot create a fireball out of nowhere, but you can control existing fires with Each brig. You cannot shoot lightning bolts out of your hand, but you CAN summon up a storm, though this will take a while. There could even be multiple ways of going about this. Once your thunderstorm is in place, you could in theory command particular lightning strikes, with Thorn brig tyr (Strike fire arrow).
Verbs
BLOD (Harvest/Attract/Increase)
DAG (Perceive/Know/Understand)
EACH (Change/Send/Move)
THORN (Strike/Curse/Protect)
HAIL (Stop/Disrupt/Hamper)
GRA (Bestow/Unite/Link)
ISS (Halt/Maintain/Preserve)
Nouns
FIU (Wealth/Power/Magic)
DAM(Strength/Health/Work)
AWN (Air/Spirit/Speech)
NOD (Truth/Justice/Authority)
BRIG (Light/Fire/Energy)
WYNN (Harmony/Joy/Blessing)
EO (Transition/Reversal/Conclusion)
PERTH (Destiny/Mystery/Initiation) (Connects with Geas concept)
SIG (Victory/Honor/Face)
TYR (Arrow/Direction/Will)
MANN (Mind/Self/Person)
LAGH (Water/Intuition/Dreams)
OTH (Earth/Home/Group)
Another idea from the system I use that may or may not fit is that spells that are overtly magical (e.g., effects that cannot be justified as mere coincidence, no matter how unlikely) cost substantially more than ones that
This takes the form of a multiplier to the cost of the spell (which, in turn, increases the casting time). So, frex, burning someone could be done with an explosive fireball fired from a druid's left eyeball (overtly magical) or a lightning strike from a stormy sky (coincidental). Just another idea to bounce around or consider.
Quote from: Humabout
Another idea from the system I use that may or may not fit is that spells that are overtly magical (e.g., effects that cannot be justified as mere coincidence, no matter how unlikely) cost substantially more than ones that
This takes the form of a multiplier to the cost of the spell (which, in turn, increases the casting time). So, frex, burning someone could be done with an explosive fireball fired from a druid's left eyeball (overtly magical) or a lightning strike from a stormy sky (coincidental). Just another idea to bounce around or consider.
What would be the advantage of the overtly magical effects? Just an incontrovertible show of power, or do they provide more potent effects as well?
The thing about the rune system is, like what often happens in games like Ars Magica and Mage, that players are creative and will tend to stretch the capabilities of such a loosely defined magic system into "doing whatever." So I'd suggest that you either come up with some more restrictive mechanical parameters for what given spells/runes/whatever can do, or, at the very least, come up with mechanical definitions for what magic at a given level can do in general, and then let players throw around runes as flavor and possibly get a little bonus for using runes in creative ways. Otherwise, if you (as the GM) have in your mind the way runes are "supposed" to work, but then don't actually codify this, you just have a recipe for a lot of confusion and arguments. No matter how mysterious magic is supposed to be in the setting, any sort of "the GM can arbitrarily decide you chose the wrong rune for what you want to do and punish you" structure is not good.
Quote from: sparkletwist
The thing about the rune system is, like what often happens in games like Ars Magica and Mage, that players are creative and will tend to stretch the capabilities of such a loosely defined magic system into "doing whatever." So I'd suggest that you either come up with some more restrictive mechanical parameters for what given spells/runes/whatever can do, or, at the very least, come up with mechanical definitions for what magic at a given level can do in general, and then let players throw around runes as flavor and possibly get a little bonus for using runes in creative ways. Otherwise, if you (as the GM) have in your mind the way runes are "supposed" to work, but then don't actually codify this, you just have a recipe for a lot of confusion and arguments. No matter how mysterious magic is supposed to be in the setting, any sort of "the GM can arbitrarily decide you chose the wrong rune for what you want to do and punish you" structure is not good.
This is a good point, and I will consider this. Perhaps this will take the form of different "levels" of spell involving different numbers and arrangements of runes, and perhaps I will codify what runes make what spells.
Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium
What would be the advantage of the overtly magical effects? Just an incontrovertible show of power, or do they provide more potent effects as well?
Other overtly magical effects would include a human flying, a human throwing a fireball, a human breathing underwater, tensor's floating disk, teleporting, stopping/slowing time, regrowing a lost limb, forcing a sapient mind to do something against its will, etc. "Overtly magical" just means things that cannot possibly happen in the real world. It's one way to make a split. I use it. You could, alternatively, set your own boundaries, such as "exceeding X damage" or "healing y damage," or whatever. It's just a mechanic to consider.
Quote from: Sparkletwist"Otherwise, if you (as the GM) have in your mind the way runes are "supposed" to work, but then don't actually codify this, you just have a recipe for a lot of confusion and arguments. No matter how mysterious magic is supposed to be in the setting, any sort of "the GM can arbitrarily decide you chose the wrong rune for what you want to do and punish you" structure is not good.
Another thing that helps a lot with this is pregenning a bunch of common spells. I've worked on this (along with a few other forumites from another forum), so players have a clear point of reference. If they're the type to try to stretch/bend rules, well, then, you'll have a lot of work as a GM in general. But that aside, providing a lot of examples for freeform magic is kind of necessary. Also, I'd suggest talking to Lord Vreeg about freeform magic. He helped me immensely.
Runic VerbsI am planning to do some more crunch about how runes fit together, and what you can do with them. This might involve power added by including multiple runes (which may only be available at a certain "level"). The more runes you use, the more powerful the spell you can get, and/or the higher the chances of success (getting more specific & working in more forces). This will probably also cost more of the magical resource. At the moment, I am wanting opinions on these. Do they look & feel good? Are there glaring omissions in terms of what can be done? At the moment, if there is a magical action you might be interested in doing that doesn't sound like it would be covered by one of these, I want to hear about it. I may or may not do something about it, but I definitely want to e put in mind of the things this layout would NOT do.
| Rune | Meaning | Lore |
Blod
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7299/9790700133_3d388d66fb_m.jpg) | Harvest
Attract
Increase
Improve | A rune of manifestation, of the rewards of work. It brings success and power, and attracts the desires of the caster. It is a rune of abundance and increase, and is usable for improving one's situation. It is especially associated with the vegetal land goddess Bloddeuwedd.
This rune is used for spells that acquire, increase, or improve. It can be used to heal or bless, as well as to gain your desires. Combined with Dam, it can increase strength, and merged with fiu is can be used to gain wealth. |
Dag
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5542/9790682976_2fefe5fc8f_o.png) | Perceive
Know
Understand | A rune of the dawn, this rune is one of discovery and enlightenment. The acquisition of knowledge dispels ignorance, just as light banishes the dark. Dag is a rune of beginnings—useful for preparing, and for learning. It holds the power to overcome entrenched errors, and deep-seated fears with clarity. It is associated with the Beech tree and is connected to Dadga.
This rune is used for spells that acquire information. It can be used to see invisible spirits, to understand an unknown language, or to gain knowledge.
|
Each
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/9790914234_ac5debe3b6_o.png) | Change
Send
Move
Speed | The "Horse" rune, Each is a rune of motion. The horse allows a person to travel much faster than on foot, and can carry heavy loads from one place to another. The relationship between human and horse is sacred, and opens up many options that would be impossible without it, highlight its nature as a symbol of change. Horses are important to everything from farming, to traveling, to warfare, and can mean the difference between success and failure, and between life and death.
It is used to speed natural effects, to move forces around, and to deliver magic to someone at a distance. |
Eiss
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3769/9790995383_151fa11f86_o.png) | Pause
Maintain
Persevere
Stasis | The rune of ice, Eiss rules over magic of "freezing." Unlike Hail, which ends effects, Iss invokes stasis, and stops movement. It is not destructive, but rather invokes stasis and resists change. Eiss contains the mystery of utter stillness; of a lack of vibration. What can we gain by being still? Eiss is the direct opposite of Each's movement and change.
Eiss can be used to extend magical effects, or to protect against offensive magical changes. |
Gra
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3791/9790900775_b22307097f_o.png) | Bestow
Unite
Link | The rune of loving, Gra contains the mysteries of gift-giving, unions and marriages, and hospitality. It involves the granting of gifts, and merging people and ideas. It is crucial in sacrifices, as these are at their core, a gift meant to form a bond; a link to the otherworld. In this sense, Gra represents all magic, which is, at its core, understood to be communion with forces beyond the material world. It is a sexually charged rune, that brings together two forces and makes them one, or creates a link between two people. One can even read entwined bodies into its overlapped lines.
Gra is used in magic that is meant to aid another, or to combine multiple runes and their effects, or to establish a magical link between two things. Gra Mann Awn can be used to share breath with another, allowing one to stay under water indefinitely, for as long as the other is able to breathe. |
Hail
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5500/9790923674_f8409a6891_o.png) | Stop
Disrupt
Hamper | Hail represents the power of negation, and the obstructive force. Its magic is of limitation and interference. It is often used as a rune of attack and a form of cancellation. It is a draining force, that channels the energy away from its target.
Hail can be used to interfere with another's magic, to slow their movements, or end an ongoing spell effect. It can take the form of a curse against someone you want to hinder.
|
Thorn
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7351/9791129706_f8b57b5e99_o.png) | Strike
Curse
Protect | The "giant" rune, Thorn is imaginally linked to the fomorians. It is the direct application of magical energy. Thorn represents aggression, and attack, but also has defensive applications. Thorn's mystery is in the attack that can be made with minimal effort--without waste. It is not a whirling, raging, or flailing attack, but the quiet patience and a sudden fierce strike. It is instinct uncomplicated by self-consciousness.
Thorn is used in magic of attack and assault. It is used for cursing, and for defending oneself.
|
I can't remember whose Celtic setting (there've been a few) it was that suggested this, but I always thought the idea of making a Druid choose a limited number of runes and learn more as they levelled up was a very cool one.
I'd like to think of magic in my setting as being very much a force of nature, flowing, twisting, intertwined with the worlds, the stars and swirling about in waves and patterns somewhat randomly. Almost like radiation or magnetism. Like I've got magical energies and forces get stored within crystals for example. Specific crystals almost programming specific "Spell effects," and being useful in say creating magic devices since they can store "information." I've thought of adding runes or something like them. Some universal glyphic language of Arcane magic but I'm somewhat concerned of having it be that up front. Magic almost has an intelligence of its own, as if magic itself is self aware.
I guess runes in my setting would be almost mathematical, like an attempt to crack the mysterious language of the "oversoul," or whatever intelligence is or governs magic.