So this is an idea for a rough-and-ready magic system for Iron Heroes or any other d20 game without set spellcasting classes (in Iron Heroes I don't use the Arcanist, but I might at some point convert one or two Arcanist class abilities into feats).
In Dark Silver, when you "cast" a spell, you're actually just persuading a demon or other magical being from the Beyond to do whatever it is you want the spell's effect to be, as humans are not themselves magical creatures.
Any character of any class can learn any spell from any d20 product by spending a feat. The only prerequisite is to have the Spellcraft skill of a rank equal to or greater than the spell's level.
When you "cast" the spell you're actually astrally projecting yourself into the Beyond, finding a suitable demon to do whatever it is the spell's effect does, then using carefully rehearsed arcane formulae to make the demon astrally project back with you into your world briefly, to do the stuff... blasting people with it's hellish magma-vomit (fireball), carrying you on it's ethereal shoulders (levitate), mentally dominating someone into liking you (charm person), or whatever.
Due to the warped nature of time in the Beyond, doing all this only actually takes whatever the casting time of the spell is.
To successfully use a spell in this way you make a Spellcraft check with a DC of 16 + the spell's level. If you succeed, the formula works, the demon comes and obeys you, and the spell happens.
If you fail the demon comes... but does not obey. You are trapped immobile in the square you were standing in when you cast the spell, engulfed in an astral vortex. Other characters and NPCs cannot enter the square or interact with you until you have defeated the demon you were trying to use for the spell in single combat, at which point you're back to normal, the vortex vanishes, and you can carry on with your life. You can't use magic in your duel with the demon, it's just a straight up melee combat. Plus you're both stuck in the vortex so no manoeuvre is possible, you're basically just standing next to each other slugging it out.
Every time this happens and you kill the demon that you were trying to use for a spell, that spell counts as 1 level higher because next time you try to use it you need to find a different demon that will react the same way to the same spell-formula, and that's hard because the Beyond is a chaotic and infinite place of darkness and madness and evil.
Only on very special occasions can characters start off knowing spells. I would usually make them learn them in play from like ancient clay tablets that they have to decipher from the language of the pre-human serpent volk found in an ancient barrow in the frozen backwoods of Larr Nesh or whatever.
Also the DM is encouraged to use their own discretion as to the exact effects of the spell and can tweak them to better suit the tone of Dark Silver. Basically think of it like the spell effects as written are what the character thinks the demon is going to do for them if the spell works... but demons being demons, that might not exactly be the case.
I don't think this will work. I like the flavor of spellcasting being tied to demonic favor, but the mechanics are pretty unworkable for a number of reasons.
Quote from: KindlingAny character of any class can learn any spell from any d20 product by spending a feat. The only prerequisite is to have the Spellcraft skill of a rank equal to or greater than the spell's level.
Generally speaking, one spell is not worth a whole feat. On the other hand, if you're allowing the entire d20-verse, there are some grossly overpowered spells that probably are, like an unerrataed version of
polymorph or something like that. I know it's supposed to be "rough and ready" but this is kind of a balancing nightmare. Worse, since the feat is spent and the character is stuck with the spell, I think it encourages players to seek out absurd spells because otherwise what seemed worthwhile at level 1 is just going to seem stupid as you level up. You can have 9 Spellcraft ranks (i.e., cast level 9 spells) by level 6. Casting level 9 spells by character level 6 is pretty ridiculous, and it will "scale well" by virtue of being completely overpowered for ten levels. So, yeah... the odds of this ending up with anything even remotely resembling balance are very very low.
Quote from: KindlingTo successfully use a spell in this way you make a Spellcraft check with a DC of 16 + the spell's level. If you succeed, the formula works, the demon comes and obeys you, and the spell happens.
Skill-check-based casting just does not work in d20 at all. Due to the amount of weird random cheesy bonuses characters can get to skill checks, there is pressure to make the DCs high, but, again, because of those bonuses, they still eventually become surmountable. So checks are usually very easy or impossible without much of a sweet spot where things are interesting. The Truenamer is a pretty good case study in how this kind of mechanic just won't work.
Quote from: KindlingIf you fail the demon comes... but does not obey. You are trapped immobile in the square you were standing in when you cast the spell, engulfed in an astral vortex. Other characters and NPCs cannot enter the square or interact with you until you have defeated the demon you were trying to use for the spell in single combat, at which point you're back to normal, the vortex vanishes, and you can carry on with your life. You can't use magic in your duel with the demon, it's just a straight up melee combat. Plus you're both stuck in the vortex so no manoeuvre is possible, you're basically just standing next to each other slugging it out.
This is boring for the player involved since it's just a slugfest with no tactics whatsoever, and it's boring for the other players because they're not doing anything. And it has the potential to happen every time someone tries to cast a spell!
Quote from: KindlingEvery time this happens and you kill the demon that you were trying to use for a spell, that spell counts as 1 level higher because next time you try to use it you need to find a different demon that will react the same way to the same spell-formula, and that's hard because the Beyond is a chaotic and infinite place of darkness and madness and evil.
This will just lead to a downward death spiral. The Truenamer sort of has this problem too, but their DCs at least only increase on
success-- failure just leading to greater chances of further failure is even worse.
Tell me more about these "cheesy bonuses"
I'm not too worried about spell availability, as characters will have to adventure to learn spells. Maybe you're right about feats though, I mean if they have to go on a quest or whatever for the spell in the first place, it seems a little harsh to make them spend a feat as well.
Do you think a Will save or WIS check would be better than a skill check, then?
The astral-vortex-demon-duel would happen in the same initiative order with whatever else was going on, and would only be boring if poorly-described. Maybe the demon should just physically manifest instead though, and just go for everyone rather than just the caster.
Downward death spirals sound perfect. It's Iron Heroes, the characters' primary skill set is hitting things with other things in a variety of ways, and I don't want to mess with that by having anyone slinging spells left and right - at least not PCs. Magic is demonic and scary and weird and DANGEROUS. You might use it as a last resort if all else is failing, or if you're utterly insane, but mostly, swords are pretty reliable.
Quote from: KindlingTell me more about these "cheesy bonuses"
Of course, Skill Focus is a no-brainer and an immediate +3. Synergy with 5 ranks of Knowledge skill gives +2, the Shadow-Born background gives +2, and a masterwork tool (or as Iron Heroes calls it, "the perfect tool for the job," like perhaps an old grimoire or an unholy symbol) gets a further +2. With an Int of 14 and 5 ranks, this means a total bonus of +16 at level 2. So this level 2 character will always roll at least a 17 and can, as such, cast level 1 spells without fail. Bump Int up to 16 or get some random +1 that I overlooked and the character can cast level 2 spells without fail. Either way, Spellcraft grows 1:1 with character level and so by character level 9 or 10 we have a character that can cast level 9 spells without fail... or, as you put it, this character will be "slinging spells left and right." It's just a mathematical disaster.
Quote from: KindlingDo you think a Will save or WIS check would be better than a skill check, then?
Wisdom doesn't scale fast enough so spellcasting would rapidly become impossible. Saves
might work in Iron Heroes because the saves are just plain equal to character level-- but there are also probably cheesy ways to boost your saves too, so if you're going that route, it'd probably be best to just do a d20 + caster level check vs. a DC of 10 + (2*spell level). This defaults to a 50% chance of casting a spell when a Wizard gets it in D&D, and you can tweak around that to taste.
Quote from: KindlingThe astral-vortex-demon-duel would happen in the same initiative order with whatever else was going on, and would only be boring if poorly-described.
I still contend having to fight the same type of opponent every time you fail a roll gets pretty repetitive, no matter how descriptive it is. But actually, with the math being what it is, any competent caster would have a 0% chance of ever even summoning a demon so I guess this isn't even really an issue.
Quote from: KindlingMagic is demonic and scary and weird and DANGEROUS.
I like demonic and scary and weird and dangerous magic. What I don't like is magic that is
player disempowering. Having to make a control roll that can go wrong can add danger and fun. Having magic go wrong make future control rolls more difficult for a time adds to the danger. However,
permanently increasing the DC just means the player will have to invest resources in order to get the same level of performance, leading to frustration and balance issues. Failing a disable device check might break that one lock, or cause guards to come, or whatever, but it doesn't permanently increase the DC of every disable device check you'll make ever again... because that's crap. This is the same.
It was unclear, but the way I read it, the DC was increased by one THE NEXT TIME you use the spell, not EVERY TIME THEREAFTER. Assuming you succeed, then subsequent rolls would go back to normal. If you end up having to kill THAT demon, then it increases again until you get a new demon again. If this is not what Kindling mean, then I'd suggest this as an alternate, which would at least help a little.