This is a quick question for some detail ideas. I am working on a map (not a setting) of a pseudo English Colonial America, but not America. I've got Nova Sarum, New Cumbria, New Strathclyde, Bethland, Edwardia and Charlotta. I'm going to change Charlotta to Carlotia. I find "Edwardia" cumbersome to the ears, perhaps because I've never heard Edward used in a regional name, but I don't know what else to replace it with. I'm hinting to possible alternate English monarchs to replace Georgia/Virginia, perhaps using Edward or Henry to base it off, but I don't know how to make either to sound right. Any suggestions.
Here's a link to my G+ community (https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/109383565847958043404) where I have that map posted as the most recent post (its currently 200 ppi, 18 x 24 inches, I don't have a reduced version posted anywhere to post here directly - I'm still in the design process and don't usually create thumbnail versions for questions).
This isn't for publication, nor even intended for actual play, its just a map development, but I'd like to get the Colony names right, anyway.
Suggestions?
Edit: I decided on Carlotia, Henricia instead of Edwardia, and opted for Patronia as another. So I don't need any help, thanks anyway!
Here's what I was trying to do, and my solution to the issue I posted. A period style map for a ficticious land, not dissimilar to the English colonies of America, just not...
Really lovely map.
Strange tangent: not many games seem to be set in the early colonial period. Lots of games get set in faux-medieval Europe and the Wild West is a hugely popular setting for games (Boot Hill, Dogs in the Vineyard, Deadlands, Aces & Eights, etc), but the 16th-18th centuries get strangely neglected - even when you do see games in those time periods they're usually firmly Old World in their assumed setting (En Garde!, Flashing Blades). The closest that I can think of are piratical games (7th Sea, Pirates!), but mainland North America (or its fantasy equivalent) in the earlier days of colonization is rarely seen as a gaming setting. Why do you think that's so?
Because setting a game in that period means you have little choice but to wade into the extremely sensitive historical ground of relations between the settlers and the indigenous American tribes?
I thought of that too, but Wild West games have the exact same problem, and yet there are Wild West games everywhere. It's not like conflicts were dying out in the 19th century - there were lots of batles and uprisings and massacres (to name just a few: Sand Creek (1864), Washita River (1868), Wounded Knee (1890)) throughout that period as well. Lots of films and novels in the Western genre focus on those conflicts, too, in a whole range of different ways.
Perhaps a reflection of the changed power structures then? As I understand it (and I am Australian so I'm not especially well-versed with American colonial history) the power of the indigenous American tribes and nations were waning by the time the Wild West hit - the colonists were clearly on the rise.
In that case perhaps the discomfort with earlier periods is having to confront and realize the fact that America was well and truly occupied by sophisticated cultures before the arrival of Europeans that were then, to some degree, destroyed by those colonists?
That's an interesting thesis. Apart from the American Revolutionary War/War of Independence, the period in general doesn't seem as susceptible to romanticization as either the Wild West or the medieval period (in many ways, of course, the cowboy/gunslinger of the Western is a reworking of the Knight Errant anyway). The particular dynamics of indigeneity and colonialism at the time might be a big part of that.
This is probably just the way my head works, but the setting would be great for a Puritan Horror kind of game of the Solomon Kane variety. There's plenty of material to draw on, particularly the Salem trials and the Sleepy Hollow legends and all that kind of thing, and the early colonies were all in Lovecraft Country anyway...
It does tend to be the way things go - if you look at the history of colonization in Australia there's a similar gap in popular portrayals of the conflict-and-incompatibility period of settlement (no-one really liked to talk about the period between 1820 to 1860ish).
It's not just your head at all - I think that would be an absolutely fantastic game (you should totally write a setting for it :D). I know that in the Solomon Kane RPG there were a couple of modules set in late-1500s America which had some similarity to that. It also sounds like it might be akin to Manly Wade Wellman's stories about Silver John, but less specifically and essentially Appalachian and in an earlier period.
Astonishingly and unpardonably considering my area of academic research I was not familiar with Wellman and Silver John (or if I was I'd forgotten all about him). Many thanks!
Quote from: Steerpike
Really lovely map.
Strange tangent: not many games seem to be set in the early colonial period. Lots of games get set in faux-medieval Europe and the Wild West is a hugely popular setting for games (Boot Hill, Dogs in the Vineyard, Deadlands, Aces & Eights, etc), but the 16th-18th centuries get strangely neglected - even when you do see games in those time periods they're usually firmly Old World in their assumed setting (En Garde!, Flashing Blades). The closest that I can think of are piratical games (7th Sea, Pirates!), but mainland North America (or its fantasy equivalent) in the earlier days of colonization is rarely seen as a gaming setting. Why do you think that's so?
As a totally uneducated non-history buff type, I'd say it's largely because as Americans, we often view those times in a similar light as the Greeks viewed the Illiad or Odyssey. We almost deify the people surrounding our founding. Moreover, those times are pretty well documented, not leaving much room for creative anachronism. Personally, I think that timeframe might be awesome for a secret magic-type setting, but not a full-on high fantasy. It breaks the suspension of disbelief when George Washington ends up fighting British vampires from the back of his trusty silver dragon, so to speak.
>>In that case perhaps the discomfort with earlier periods is having to confront and realize the fact that America was well and truly occupied by sophisticated cultures before the arrival of Europeans that were then, to some degree, destroyed by those colonists?
I really don't think so. Americans aren't as sensitive about native cultures in the same sense that perhaps Canadians would be and it's not a personal issue for people because most Americans don't know any true Amerinds anyway, other than people you will run into who claim 1/16th or some other dilution of Amerind blood.
Also, Americans really don't care much about Amerind cultures in the colonial times and I have yet to meet an American, other than extreme left wing ones who take up *every* social cause, who expresses any deep regret about marginalization of Amerinds in colonial times-I haven't met many who have said they are proud of it, but there certainly is nothing like the German penance for WWII-the issue is too far ago in time and the usual assumption is that most of the Amerinds died of foreign diseases introduced by Europeans (I seem to recall that the population halved- and the major killer was disease, not warfare).
American history books also have very little to say about colonial era Amerinds, which could be a cause of the lack of care mentioned in the previous paragraph. There is a bit about the Pilgrims and the natives who actually knew about native crops; there is a bit about the Iroquois Confederacy as a potential source of inspiration for Benjamin Franklin and the Founders' original Articles of Confederacy. Then, there's a bit about Techumseh. Modern books do focus more on non-European history of ancient america, but they focus on the anasazi, who died out, or the Mayas/Aztec, who weren't in North America, and a bit on the Mississippian culture- which, again, wasn't around when the Colonials arrived.
Now, game designers may have different concerns than the general public, as may game players... but I think it boils down to the Revolutionary period not being distinct or interesting from a gaming point of view outside of horror, as was mentioned above. (Cthulhu is very appropriate for the period).
Consider- the Napoleanic times were right after that in Europe- perfect for wargames and for games obsessed with pomp and circumstance.
What does the rugged colonial life offer? It's rather bland by comparison. It lacks the lawlessness and adventure of the wild west. It lacks the manners of Europe. Have you seen Colonial Gothic, however? http://rogue-games.net/games/Colonial-Gothic/ . The major board game themes I see from that period of history are also horror-- e.g. Touch of Evil. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game
Quote from: Light Dragon
What does the rugged colonial life offer? It's rather bland by comparison. It lacks the lawlessness and adventure of the wild west. It lacks the manners of Europe. Have you seen Colonial Gothic, however? http://rogue-games.net/games/Colonial-Gothic/ . The major board game themes I see from that period of history are also horror-- e.g. Touch of Evil. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game
I think the fact you used the word 'rugged' is telling in and of itself - colonial-era gaming offers a chance to tell narratives that are about some of the truths of frontier living (themes of man vs. the wilderness, first contact, taming the primal land, etc.) in a way that Wild West stories, which focus on themes of man vs. man, the nature of criminality and tension between the ideal of independent living and the reality of government rule, do not or cannot.
The way you describe colonial gaming, it's similar to the other neglected era- Stone Age/Bronze Age.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/115271/Anointed-Mantle-of-the-Gods
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=115271&reviews_id=94384
(from the New Gods of Mankind series: http://darkskullstudios.com/products/new-gods-handbook/).
And Pelgrane Press' Hill Folk, (Publishers of 13th Age and the Jack Vance RPG). http://www.pelgranepress.com/?cat=222
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/101850/Cavemaster-RPG (pebbles...popular mechanic for stone age games).
Perhaps people don't care very much about these themes?
Or, they only care about those themes in-as-much as they are realized in games like Fallout, which really focus more on man v. man... although man v. nature has a side role.
The idea of nature and our conflict with it has been pretty prominent in fantasy - Tolkien, of course, is preoccupied with this conflict. What strikes me about the colonial period is that it's not quite as suitable for the kind of myth-making that drives so much popular fiction - the rekindling of interest in Arthurian romance and medieval chivalry in the 19th century, for example, is tied up with British nationalism and imperialism, and one could argue that the Western is centrally concerned with negotiating ideas about individualism and the American dream. Arguably, the early colonial history of North America doesn't supply the same kind of mythic grist for the mill (until the founding fathers get on the scene, anyway!).
I've always assumed the lack of Colonial-style settings was that:
1. You have to develop a lot of setting material for the various empires that are colonizing the new world, material that will not be directly used in game as often as material generated specifically for the colonies.
2. Guns. For some reason muskets are just not that popular in the pen and paper world. People just want to either start when guns are just arriving or well after they have been perfected.
3. The threat of feeling/being insensitive... Its hard to describe. I think people are hesitant to set a game in a world where the "white man" is conquering the "red man's" land. Even if you mask the concept behind a veil of "the humans are colonizing a new world filled with vicious orcs", it still feels vaguely offensive, in a way. I think this might be a chiefly American perception because if you move a few thousand miles to the south and have a setting where elvish conquistadors are beating down aztec-like lizardfolk, it does not feel as... Wrong/bad(?) as the former.
If you remove those equivocations, a colonial setting really is not that different than a normal D&D setting. Its about civilization expanding into the "empty" wilderness where, lo and behold, more primitive peoples dwell. Every time a group of adventurers clears out a cave full of goblins, they are in effect paving the way civilization's inevitable sprawl. Really the only difference is that you deal with separate colonies, rather than baronies and have a higher percentage of republics as compared to monarchies.
Side note, I don't really see a ton of Old West style games either. Many of the ones that do exist add in Steam Punk elements, thereby blending genres.
Quote from: Steerpike
The idea of nature and our conflict with it has been pretty prominent in fantasy - Tolkien, of course, is preoccupied with this conflict.
I agree that it gets discussed at a larger and more meta level - more as society/technology vs. nature - but I'm more interested in the smaller scale conflict of communities trying to battle & co-operate in turns with nature in order to survive.
Quote from: Steerpike
Arguably, the early colonial history of North America doesn't supply the same kind of mythic grist for the mill (until the founding fathers get on the scene, anyway!).
I think it hasn't been in the past, but that doesn't mean there's no potential there - I can see huge possibilities to explore creation-stories and the narratives of city-and-nation-building and ideas about exceptionalism (using both ideas of folk-heroism ala Johnny Appleseed & Daniel Boone but also reworkings of the demi-god narrative).
I suppose I agree it has been neglected, but I think it's a little tragic that's the case because I see great potential.
I think that's a pretty astute analysis, Elemental Elf. Particularly #3.
Of course, there's no reason the players have to be colonists - they could as easily be indigenous characters adapting to/repelling the colonists.
Quote from: Elemental ElfSide note, I don't really see a ton of Old West style games either. Many of the ones that do exist add in Steam Punk elements, thereby blending genres.
I agree there's a lot of genre-overlap with Westerns; historically, at least, though, the Old West/Wild West has been fairly popular as a setting, starting with the seminal
Boot Hill (1975) which was TSR's third roleplaying game.
Deadlands, though certainly genre-bending, is pretty huge and has been adapted to tons of different systems. Never compared to medieval fantasy, though.
Quote from: HippopotamusDundeeI suppose I agree it has been neglected, but I think it's a little tragic that's the case because I see great potential.
I agree there's a lot of untapped potential in the period. After all, this is a
hugely formative and fascinating time politically.
Well I'm glad to see this thread come alive!
My thoughts on this. I can agree that a purely historical game surrounding the Colonial period of North America could be problematic, so is why this map is completely fictional with its own implied alternate world history surrounding it (not to mention a completely made up land that only resembles the east coast of North America). Of course I did not have some developed setting concept before I created this map - development kind of came into its own, as I began labeling this map.
Nova Sarum: Sarum was the Roman name for the city of Salisbury, England. Actually using Londinium instead of New London, as well as names to rivers like Little Avon and West Thames. Using these old titles suggest the possibility of what if Rome didn't vacate Britain. Could Catholicm still be a strong presence in British history, such that Britain isn't significantly Protestant history?
New Strathclyde: Strathclyde was a Irish Kingdom in southern Scotland in pre-Roman days, part of Dal Riada a kingdom based in Ulster that stretched across the Irish Sea. This somewhat implies that neither Ireland, nor Scotland has been fully absorbed by the British kingdom, such that they are neighbors, not fiefdoms of the British crown. Also bringing in a little Shakespeare, notice Fort MacBeth in the western parts of Bethland just across the border from Fort Irwin in New Strathclyde. In Shakespeare's MacBeth, King Malcolm Irwin is the king that MacBeth poisons to become king of Scotland, himself. Later Malcolm's son revenges upon MacBeth and slays the entire family.
I was incorporating a bit of my own ancestry here (on my grandmother's side), as Malcolm Irwin is an ancestor of mine, as well as the kings of Strathclyde. Also, however, if you look at the placement of Ft. Irwin/Ft. MacBeth, they lie on the south end of this map's analog Appalachian mountains, which kind of reflects the location of the Hatfields and McCoys. A clan feud exists between the commanders (and clans) at Ft. Irwin and Ft. MacBeth. Also politically (in the implied setting of this map), the Pawachee Gap serves as an important passage through the mountainous barrier that separates the coastal regions from the interior. Since New Strathclyde controls the entrance to the Gap, it is likely that New Strathclyde seeks to control the Gap. Of course the main passage through the Gap is in the boundries of Bethland. There is likely an ongoing skirmishes across the boundry between the two colonies, with an inevitability to war in the near future.
For comparative analogs: Nova Sarum is a puritanical Catholic New England, Patronia is New York/New Jersey, New Strathclyde is Virginia, Bethland is Maryland, Henricia and Carlotia are the Carolinas and Georgia. Its not the full thirteen colonies, but the major ones.
Another thought that popped up while I was developing this. What if church and state are weaker, with a powerful merchant companies and guilds holding sway in the world, as if much of the European powers were corporations - or varying companies like the Dutch East India Company. Something like todays world where corporations and multi-nationals have more power than many nation states.
If a colonial game was based on real history, I can see lots of the problems brought up in this thread, as to why such might not be as popular a game setting as medieval or Old West. However, by turning history on its head, and incorporating different political ambitions - something interesting might be born.
Anyway, these were the thoughts I developed as I was doing this map.
Was Bethland a reference to Macbeth, then, and not Queen Elizabeth?
It was a reference to Queen Elizabeth. Note Port Lizabeth. MacBeth was just a coincidence - smaller house than the Tudors.
I'm seeing the events of MacBeth as current and here in the Crown Colonies, and not reflective to events from the 10th century, as is the story of MacBeth.
Ah, OK. A Catholic Queen Elizabeth is a crazy-interesting prospect.
Did you envision anything unusual for a New France analogue?
I kept New France in mind, but didn't actually include it in the map. However, one small aside towards native/French history. Notice the northernmost river on this map - Obwandiyag. This is the actual Iroquois name, that the French "Frankized" into Pontiac. The story as I heard it, when Pontiac was a baby, on his name day, his mother brought him into the chief's hut while he was bawling like a healthy baby. The mother told the baby to "stop it" and he did. Obwan is Iroquois for "he's stopping it". Diyag, was Pontiac's paternal grandfather, and with great pride asked that the boy be named after him. Since Pontiac was primarily an ally of New France, that was my "New France" inclusion.
I see France and England at war, like they were throughout real history, however, the wars aren't religiously based. However, I did imagine that there was kind of a Catholic Reformation, that followed the corruptions of the Borgias, and now there are several factions of the Catholic church, including one that considers the Pope, as the Arch Bishop of Rome only, and not as having any ecclesiastic powers over other Catholic nations. Some factions still support the Pope, but Pretannia's (Britains) version is more of a puritanical view of Catholism, and likely that France is not.
Interesting stuff. Did the Great Schism play out as normal in this universe?
Incidentally, I now have outlines for two colonial horror adventures set in mid-1700s fantasy New England... I'm going to have to write and run these now.
I imagine there being an analog Constantinople as well as the Ottoman Turks. Since this wasn't centric to the map's design - I haven't fully restructured European history, just hints of might have played out if key moments in history did not happen or events went differently.
Quote from: Steerpike
Incidentally, I now have outlines for two colonial horror adventures set in mid-1700s fantasy New England... I'm going to have to write and run these now.
Excellent...
Have you thought about naming places directly after obscure little places in the UK? I mean, Boston is a smallish village near where I grew up.... But obviously the American Boston is a little more significant.
In fiction this has a precedent - Gotham is another small village in the same (rough) area as Boston.
Quote from: HippopotamusDundee
Quote from: Steerpike
Incidentally, I now have outlines for two colonial horror adventures set in mid-1700s fantasy New England... I'm going to have to write and run these now.
Excellent...
Seconded!
@Kindling - well I didn't include that many communities on the map, as its still supposed to be relatively early in its settlement period. I did have the thought of perusing through an atlas of England, and find names that could be easily changed, like removing 'ton', 'burg', 'ham' and replacing with a different one, but as stated I only needed a few communities so it wasn't a major concern.
Regarding this period in history and its possibilities as a gameable setting, has anyone here read the "Alvin the Maker" series by Orson Scott Card? Its set in an alternative history America with some low fantasy magic inclusions, though it is really set in the years following the Revolutionary War, approximately 1800. There are a couple historic figures mentioned, some with minimal dialog but actual characters in the story, including Napoleon. Ben Franklin is mentioned as a wizard. Everyone has a knack, some singular skill or arcane ability. For some its a simple as keeping accurate accounts, always measuring exactly, pyrotechnics (a spark to cause fire), etc. I've read 4 books in the series and the story is basically set in the period from 1800 up to the Civil War. Its actually a very cool set of stories.
I know it is a bit late, but I've actually made a colonial North America themed setting ages ago and it was set in a region divided between multiple colony "states," akin to say New England. I believe I titled the setting "Heart of Darkness." As the continent was vast, unexplored and unknown. I tended to use names derived from cultures, for one a common practice is to name a Colony after someone. For example I had one Colony called "Sadieland," literally the Land named for Sadie. Whom was the wife of the explorer who landed there and received a royal charter to settle there. Others were New Caledonia, in the far south a rival empire had Sierra Sancheca and Annetta. Ect ect.
I agree with others, It isn't a well touched on era in American history. Primarily because IMHO it comes from a radically different era in American History that really predates our modern American culture. Before the Civil War, America wasn't really a united country as it is today. The States were culturally very separate and regions practically were like different countries with very different cultural customs. Vermont and Virginia were extreme different and very much disliked one another. Which is a theme I played at in my own campaign. When a deep 2 year winter gripped the world the motherlands lost control over the colonies and quickly the colonies descended into strife. Some forming coalitions, In some corners men rallied armies to declare themselves Kings, fledgling democracies formed, ect. The Old West is more familiar because by then America, the land we know, really came to be. Also thanks to Hollywood and books the era of the Civil War and after it in the Wild West really has a plethora of cultural material, were as (Save for a few documentaries, an Assassins Creed game, and a Tim Burton movie) the colonial period and its stories really gets a lot less coverage. Also the colonial period mainly deals with a much smaller America. It is mainly the story of New England, Virginia, The Carolina's, Georgia. Most of America that we know now did not exist, were as in the Wild West we cover the continent, so it is more familiar to us.
But also in a Colonial setting I was able to turn up the horror factor. One example was a quest were the party encountered a town besieged by a murderous werewolf. And stalked by a witch. The witch actually it turned out was the sister of the werewolf and was attempting to keep her locked up but the town militia wanted to be rid of her and was looking about her home for evidence to use against her when they unwittingly let the werewolf free from the basement. Of course those who freed it never returned, and the militia began to rally the town against the witch connecting her with the sudden appearance of the werewolf.... deeper then that the head of the militia wanted the witches house and land since it had excellent timber for his mill business and he didn't like the competition.
Other quests were a desperate tribe of natives whose Shaman made infernal pacts with beasts of the pit to give them advantages over the colonists in war. This however came at a price, as the tribe slowly morphed into tieflings and their black magic twisted the lands they were fighting to save.
Quote from: Tzi
I know it is a bit late, but I've actually made a colonial North America themed setting ages ago and it was set in a region divided between multiple colony "states," akin to say New England. I believe I titled the setting "Heart of Darkness." As the continent was vast, unexplored and unknown. I tended to use names derived from cultures, for one a common practice is to name a Colony after someone. For example I had one Colony called "Sadieland," literally the Land named for Sadie. Whom was the wife of the explorer who landed there and received a royal charter to settle there. Others were New Caledonia, in the far south a rival empire had Sierra Sancheca and Annetta. Ect ect.
This sounds pretty cool. Did you post it anywhere?
I agree with others, It isn't a well touched on era in American history. Primarily because IMHO it comes from a radically different era in American History that really predates our modern American culture. Before the Civil War, America wasn't really a united country as it is today. The States were culturally very separate and regions practically were like different countries with very different cultural customs. Vermont and Virginia were extreme different and very much disliked one another. Which is a theme I played at in my own campaign. When a deep 2 year winter gripped the world the motherlands lost control over the colonies and quickly the colonies descended into strife. Some forming coalitions, In some corners men rallied armies to declare themselves Kings, fledgling democracies formed, ect. The Old West is more familiar because by then America, the land we know, really came to be. Also thanks to Hollywood and books the era of the Civil War and after it in the Wild West really has a plethora of cultural material, were as (Save for a few documentaries, an Assassins Creed game, and a Tim Burton movie) the colonial period and its stories really gets a lot less coverage. Also the colonial period mainly deals with a much smaller America. It is mainly the story of New England, Virginia, The Carolina's, Georgia. Most of America that we know now did not exist, were as in the Wild West we cover the continent, so it is more familiar to us.
But also in a Colonial setting I was able to turn up the horror factor. One example was a quest were the party encountered a town besieged by a murderous werewolf. And stalked by a witch. The witch actually it turned out was the sister of the werewolf and was attempting to keep her locked up but the town militia wanted to be rid of her and was looking about her home for evidence to use against her when they unwittingly let the werewolf free from the basement. Of course those who freed it never returned, and the militia began to rally the town against the witch connecting her with the sudden appearance of the werewolf.... deeper then that the head of the militia wanted the witches house and land since it had excellent timber for his mill business and he didn't like the competition.
Other quests were a desperate tribe of natives whose Shaman made infernal pacts with beasts of the pit to give them advantages over the colonists in war. This however came at a price, as the tribe slowly morphed into tieflings and their black magic twisted the lands they were fighting to save.
This sounds pretty cool. Did you post it anywhere?
Quote from: Hoers
Quote from: Tzi
I know it is a bit late, but I've actually made a colonial North America themed setting ages ago and it was set in a region divided between multiple colony "states," akin to say New England. I believe I titled the setting "Heart of Darkness." As the continent was vast, unexplored and unknown. I tended to use names derived from cultures, for one a common practice is to name a Colony after someone. For example I had one Colony called "Sadieland," literally the Land named for Sadie. Whom was the wife of the explorer who landed there and received a royal charter to settle there. Others were New Caledonia, in the far south a rival empire had Sierra Sancheca and Annetta. Ect ect.
This sounds pretty cool. Did you post it anywhere?
I agree with others, It isn't a well touched on era in American history. Primarily because IMHO it comes from a radically different era in American History that really predates our modern American culture. Before the Civil War, America wasn't really a united country as it is today. The States were culturally very separate and regions practically were like different countries with very different cultural customs. Vermont and Virginia were extreme different and very much disliked one another. Which is a theme I played at in my own campaign. When a deep 2 year winter gripped the world the motherlands lost control over the colonies and quickly the colonies descended into strife. Some forming coalitions, In some corners men rallied armies to declare themselves Kings, fledgling democracies formed, ect. The Old West is more familiar because by then America, the land we know, really came to be. Also thanks to Hollywood and books the era of the Civil War and after it in the Wild West really has a plethora of cultural material, were as (Save for a few documentaries, an Assassins Creed game, and a Tim Burton movie) the colonial period and its stories really gets a lot less coverage. Also the colonial period mainly deals with a much smaller America. It is mainly the story of New England, Virginia, The Carolina's, Georgia. Most of America that we know now did not exist, were as in the Wild West we cover the continent, so it is more familiar to us.
But also in a Colonial setting I was able to turn up the horror factor. One example was a quest were the party encountered a town besieged by a murderous werewolf. And stalked by a witch. The witch actually it turned out was the sister of the werewolf and was attempting to keep her locked up but the town militia wanted to be rid of her and was looking about her home for evidence to use against her when they unwittingly let the werewolf free from the basement. Of course those who freed it never returned, and the militia began to rally the town against the witch connecting her with the sudden appearance of the werewolf.... deeper then that the head of the militia wanted the witches house and land since it had excellent timber for his mill business and he didn't like the competition.
Other quests were a desperate tribe of natives whose Shaman made infernal pacts with beasts of the pit to give them advantages over the colonists in war. This however came at a price, as the tribe slowly morphed into tieflings and their black magic twisted the lands they were fighting to save.
This sounds pretty cool. Did you post it anywhere?
I sadly never posted it. The entire setting exists in a binder, I've got a notebook full of lore, gods, text, and a graph paper notebook of maps and charts. Unfortunately it was my first setting, my first attempt at world building so I ignored a lot of things and due to scheduling the campaign ended after awhile.
I still have all my notes and on some level I want to continue with it's themes and the time period to an extent. Though now I've taken to peppering a degree of Sci-Fantasy into what I do, the Colonial period is actually my favorite historically and also a great source of inspiration for settings.
Quote from: Elemental_Elf
I've always assumed the lack of Colonial-style settings was that:
1. You have to develop a lot of setting material for the various empires that are colonizing the new world, material that will not be directly used in game as often as material generated specifically for the colonies.
There's probably truth in that, but I figure that this 'New World', at least by the map is strictly English as far as imperial powers go. If it were closer to colonial America, then presumeably 'New France' or some other Canadian derivative is north of the area shown on the map, as well as the possibility of a 'New Spain' south of the map area. I would presume, there'd be no need to offer anything more than a quick overview of the other imperial nations - info regarding wealth, areas of control, primary import/export, state of the military, politics and agenda - and perhaps technology (size of sailing ships, etc.)
Quote from: Elemental_Elf2. Guns. For some reason muskets are just not that popular in the pen and paper world. People just want to either start when guns are just arriving or well after they have been perfected.
Eh, plenty of Old West/Cowboy games out there, so there are plenty of gun slinging settings on the market. I could easily believe that 'Colonial Era' is probably less popular than eras that preceed and follow it. So it's certainly less popular, but that shouldn't suggest that it isn't worth pursuing.
Quote from: Elemental_Elf3. The threat of feeling/being insensitive... Its hard to describe. I think people are hesitant to set a game in a world where the "white man" is conquering the "red man's" land. Even if you mask the concept behind a veil of "the humans are colonizing a new world filled with vicious orcs", it still feels vaguely offensive, in a way. I think this might be a chiefly American perception because if you move a few thousand miles to the south and have a setting where elvish conquistadors are beating down aztec-like lizardfolk, it does not feel as... Wrong/bad(?) as the former.
There is definitely a large faction of people with concerns of racial (and other) sensitivity in the world today. I don't really know how many are active gamers, and some level of racial/ethnic sensitivity should be kept in mind in any kind of historical fantasy development. That said, noting some of the literary works set in the New World that include native Americans - Last of the Mohicans and The Scarlet Letter, neither are particularly 'anti-native' in tone nor content. I'm of the opinion that the primary killer of native Americans were the introduction of diseases from Europe, like smallpox. But this wasn't deliberate biological warfare, we were merely carriers of such disease, and lacked knowledge of how disease was spread. White man may have carried this death with them, but its dispensation was nothing deliberate. I don't believe there is a need to glorify any possible historic event involving the murder or genocidal attacks against native Americans in a game setting.
For those individuals overly sensitive to issues of white vs. native Americans, such a setting could be problematic, and such people wouldn't play in such a situation. But really, I don't see a huge audience of politically correct emphasis in the gaming industry. As long as one isn't deliberately mean spirited or prejudice to a given race (even a fictional one) in such a setting - I don't really think there is an issue.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfIf you remove those equivocations, a colonial setting really is not that different than a normal D&D setting. Its about civilization expanding into the "empty" wilderness where, lo and behold, more primitive peoples dwell. Every time a group of adventurers clears out a cave full of goblins, they are in effect paving the way civilization's inevitable sprawl. Really the only difference is that you deal with separate colonies, rather than baronies and have a higher percentage of republics as compared to monarchies.
Honestly, I've personally only played in a handful of settings that fit in the sand-boxy hex divided unexplored region, yet none of those settings felt very 'colonial new world' to me. Without being established as a new continent, without a distinctly imperial British flavor, set in a post Renaissance religion/politics/technology of 16th - 18th century flavor, I don't see such a setting as being anything like other D&D worlds. Though for me flavor is a lot.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfSide note, I don't really see a ton of Old West style games either. Many of the ones that do exist add in Steam Punk elements, thereby blending genres.
Genre blends or not, there are still pistols and pistolerros even if riding an airship. I don't believe there are too many exclusively historical settings being played by various gamers out there. Most historical-esque settings are genre mashups of some kind. Even look at my Kaidan setting which is feudal Japan and horror. Deadlands is Old West and horror. There are settings/systems like Sidewinder by DogHouseRulez which is very much old west historical, not really including any kind of 'magic' or 'other worldly' nature.
Quote from: Gamer PrintshopI'm of the opinion that the primary killer of native Americans were the introduction of diseases from Europe, like smallpox. But this wasn't deliberate biological warfare, we were merely carriers of such disease, and lacked knowledge of how disease was spread.
Not trying to "call you out," or anything (and certainly not trying to imply you're being insensitive), but some historians do disagree with this to an extent. Example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Pitt). Most smallpox contagion was accidental but some of it may have been deliberate; it's a subject of debate. There's a fair bit of evidence that the colonists at least considered it.
Whether or not smallpox blankets were used or not, though, it's pretty much undeniable Europeans did slaughter thousands of Native Americans quite deliberately in their efforts to subjugate the continent, while also violently imposing their values on the indigenous populace, a practice that extended well into the twentieth-century with things like residential schools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_schools) in Canada where First Nations students were frequently molested, beaten, and forced to accept European values (a key goal of the system was literally described as "killing the Indian in the child").
I'm certainly not saying that these events preclude a game set in the colonial period, though - far, far from it, I love the idea of a colonial setting. Light Dragon and you make a good point, though, that sensitivity about such issues probably isn't the chief reason the period is neglected.
I know of specific incidences where vile acts blamed on Native Americans were actually done by whites causing the socalled Black Hawk War, acts done by William Henry Harrison like slaughtering a peaceful religious community. So there definitely vile acts done in American history instigated by white Americans. However, when the colonies were very early in settlement, when the populations were fearfully small compared to the unknown wilderness interior (about 50 miles from the sea...).
This was the environment the map depicts as a fictional analog, though they really aren't "English colonies" nor inhabited by native Americans - its all fiction.
If we look at the actual prejudice, extreme period belief systems, unequal social hierarchy, religious intoleration, brutal management of society in general at any point in history (anywhere in the world), compared to modern sensibilities, it was all pretty bad. To point out one example of social intoleration in the "Colonial Period" as being especially significant - I see little difference from any other point in history, even today in some places in the world.
That's very true, and a good point. The colonial Americans certainly weren't any worse than, say, the Romans or the Mongols... although once the rhetoric around equality and the pursuit of happiness starts appearing it's harder not to see them as hypocrites.
Quote from: Gamer Printshop
I know of specific incidences where vile acts blamed on Native Americans were actually done by whites causing the socalled Black Hawk War, acts done by William Henry Harrison like slaughtering a peaceful religious community. So there definitely vile acts done in American history instigated by white Americans. However, when the colonies were very early in settlement, when the populations were fearfully small compared to the unknown wilderness interior (about 50 miles from the sea...).
This was the environment the map depicts as a fictional analog, though they really aren't "English colonies" nor inhabited by native Americans - its all fiction.
If we look at the actual prejudice, extreme period belief systems, unequal social hierarchy, religious intoleration, brutal management of society in general at any point in history (anywhere in the world), compared to modern sensibilities, it was all pretty bad. To point out one example of social intoleration in the "Colonial Period" as being especially significant - I see little difference from any other point in history, even today in some places in the world.
I think the Colonial period is simply chronologically closer. The horrible things done here have the printing press, and it being fairly recent compared to other atrocities. We know the Romans were d-bags, we know Assyria was the evil empire, ect, but these events lay far back in the mists of history. Not a lot of ink exists of accounts about it, this is so distant that it feels safer.
Right. And it's rarer to hold up, say, Caesar or Augustus as moral authorities and heroes than it is to revere the early settlers and founding fathers or invoke their values for political purposes.
What about games set in WW2, Viet Nam or Afganistan today? Should such games just be avoided altogether, since those would definitely touch upon modern concepts of human rights and intoleration? I never let modern political thinking/humanity issues cloud my game environments, they might actually be elements to help drive the direction or fervor of emotions. I don't eschew them because they might hurt somebodies feelings (that said, I don't deliberately sabotage players by forcing them to act inappropriately to modern sensibilities, and I insure all participants understand the setting and situation prior to the start of any campaign). I don't limit my games nor gaming concepts with modern sensibilities no matter how close chronologically analog events are to our current age.
I would never publish a game or setting with deliberate issues that might inflame issues of intoleration (just as I wouldn't publish a module that included issues of rape, incest, necrophilia, molestation), but games played at my own table or not limited by such restrictions. I know my players and I know how far I can take a concept before it's too far...
Quote from: Gamer PrintshopWhat about games set in WW2, Viet Nam or Afganistan today? Should such games just be avoided altogether, since those would definitely touch upon modern concepts of human rights and intoleration? I never let modern political thinking/humanity issues cloud my game environments, they might actually be elements to help drive the direction or fervor of emotions.
Here here! I don't think any setting or time period should be off limits, no matter how intense the horrors of history (though I might shy away from setting a game in a concentration camp...).
Also, I would totally read/buy/write modules with graphic/obscene sexual content, including rape, incest, necrophilia, and molestation. In my old CE game there was an adventure where the players uncovered a zombie sex ring where a necromancer was digging up and reanimating the corpses of beautiful young women and selling them to a necrophiliac brothel. My Fimbulvinter game began with a group of viking marauders preparing to have their way with one of the player characters (although I was very, very confident that the marauders would have their guts spilled, which did indeed happen). Inbred hillfolk are a staple of any backwoods horror scenario, and in a Game of Thrones style game of political intrigue I wouldn't shy away from incest. But that's me.
I could see a Hogan's Heroes style game with all players as inmates in a prisoner of war camp, like Stalag 13 - perhaps not played as campy as the television show, but it would be a fun game, I'd think.
Stalag 13, absolutely, Auschwitz, probably not (or, at least: very, very carefully, and probably only as part of a bigger campaign).
While I tend not to play them, but there is "Actung Cthulhu!" and plenty other eldritch horror based Nazi games, where a concentration camp scenario might fit. If the Jewish inmates aren't completely incapable, there could be a golem creating situation going on, or perhaps a hibbuk box trapped Jewish ghost scenario. It would have to be played carefully, and no doubt the concentration camp itself probably only a part of such of an adventure, and not an entire campaign, but I think its doable.
Oh man. We did a thing once where the players were in a concentration camp, sacrificing fellow Jews to forestall their own doom. It's maybe the fourth darkest thing we ever ran, with bad times had by all. We also did a thing about interdimensional parallel-earths sexual slavery (stealing girls from one New York and selling them to another).
Most of the shit I come up with (like, larger by an order of magnitude) doesn't end up on the CBG for this very reason. Also why you'll never see our Cadaverous Earth/Jade Stage play reports.
My god, that was the fourth darkest?!?
I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Serbian_Film)can (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibal_Holocaust) barely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_120_Days_of_Sodom) imagine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostel_%282005_film%29) what the first must've been like...
Personally, I think that if your entire group is comfortable with doing shit like that, go for it, but I also think that if your entire group is comfortable with doing shit like that, you're probably doing it wrong.
Quote from: sparkletwist...but I also think that if your entire group is comfortable with doing shit like that, you're probably doing it wrong.
Who said we were
comfortable? If we were comfortable, it'd defeat the purpose.
Quote from: SteerpikeI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Serbian_Film)can (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibal_Holocaust) barely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_120_Days_of_Sodom) imagine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostel_%282005_film%29) what the first must've been like...
Of those four, only 120 Days of Sodom comes remotely close. I mean, A Serbian Film is an extended metaphor literally no-one asked for; grotesque but utterly divorced from reality ("Newborn Porn"? Really?!?). To me, it's not a question of brute "horror", but of betrayed humanity. Anyone can describe atrocity. The films
The Book of Revelation and
Gallipoli are more disturbing to me than Hostel because they paint suffering as a
dimension of humanity in stead of an exercise in monstrosity. Like, the basement scene in the Road, what disturbs me isn't what the Man discovers there, but what he does about it.
My links there were tongue-in-cheek - I'm sure whatever you ran was much better and weirder than any of those references.
You do make me curious. The idea that what you post here is some small iceburg breaching the surface is tantalizing, though I basically suspected as much.
Ah. Phew.
Actually quite dark, there's a published Kaidan one-shot adventure called Up from Darkness (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/107645/Up-From-Darkness-PFRPG) that starts with a party of individuals who have no memory as to who they are (slowly getting tidbits with each successful encounter) after waking in a floor cut tomb in the bottom level of a dungeon, and each PC will probably be killed multiple times in a very deadly dungeon of haunts, traps and monsters (each time a PC dies he wakes up in a different floor cut tomb with no memories...). When they finally survive the dungeon, the memories are restored. They were volunteers to join the shogun's elite death squad and was required to commit seppuku as the start of a trial to prove their worth - the PCs original bodies are stacked and bloodied for the successful party to witness.
Stranger still, the author, Jonathan McAnulty, is an evangelical Christian minister by day! His 12 year old son ran this module at Origins last year, as his first GM for a convention game experience - both dark and cool.
I dig that.