Hey All,
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but here goes (Mods, feel free to relocate this thread if it is in the wrong sub-forum) ...
Lately, i have my head filled with ideas for a Science Fantasy game. Problem is, this is all still very vague in my head and somehow i have problems putting notes to e-paper.
I have some basic ideas: i want the look to be mostly fantasy with some dashing of science and when i say science i mainly mean magi-tech and "technology" in form of magically powered stuff. My big visional inspiration is, i guess, the parts of the marvel cinematic universe (i'm too much a newb in the marvel comic department) that look very fantasy-ish. For example Thor's Asgard but also some portions of the Guardians of the Galaxy movie (i loved that the blue-skinned bady had a Hammer as a weapon and not a lasergun or some such).
Do you guys/gals have any pointers where i could go for inspiration? Are there any cool science fantasy settings out there that lean more on the fantasy side of things (for example i count Star Wars as Science Fantasy as well but imo, it leans more to the Science side of things)?
Maybe science fiction settings that have a fantastic feel to it (vs. hard science feel) could also help me get a clearer vision. Any pointers are appreciated.
If you have pictures that could inspire such a setting, please post or link to it as well. I'm a very visual person :wink:
I am considering having stuff like powered armor, flying ships (that are maybe even capable of interstellar flight *), huge sprawling cities, living artifical creatures and so on.
* i am picturing the setting as a couple of inhabited planets at the moment...maybe even in different solar systems. Not sure how the travel through space will go, maybe it is through portals or "wormholes" or maybe even "normal" spacetravel (FTL, Slipstream, Hyperspace, whatever you want to call it).
Thanks for any and all help.
I've been playing with building something similar to EN Publishing Santiago setting, where magic IS technology. Imagine every existing PF spell is a technical procedure - a mathematical formula that can be used to construct technology (as an engineer) or something that could be written as software code (as a hacker), but whose effects perfectly duplicate magical spells. I've got a thread called New Classes (EN Publishing Santiago rules (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,210160.msg229429.html#new)) which discusses this concept, as it applies to a starship pilot using technical procedures (a custom half caster class). Instead of a fireball spell, a hacker creates code that instructs a pack of nanites to fly out at a certain distance (say 40 feet) then rapidly heat up and release a burst of fiery energy - with the same exact result. Now you don't have to invent a technology system, now it is merely renaming existing spells and perceiving how they work in a different way - but mechanically works identical to magic, it is simply called "technology" instead.
While magic won't exist in the setting, I am considering including a Dreamscarred Press Psionicist to serve the role of "spellcaster".
I guess you go the opposite side, then. I want to fantasy-ize technology, you seem to technologize fantasy. Mechanically, if we're speaking rpg language, there is not much difference in the end but on a meta-level and in it's philosophical foundings there is a big difference, imo.
Some rpgs i know who have a magi-tech side (aka fantasy with "technology") are Exalted and Anima beyond Fantasy. I like both of them but sometimes i want to tinker myself ;)
Ruleswise i want to be as far away from PF and the D20 side of things as i can be. I'm not a big fan of linear systems anyway. I'm thinking more of FATE, Cortex + Heroic, or, if i want to go more traditional, something like Storyteller or maybe R&K used in 7th Sea/L5R.
Anyway, before i can even think about mechanics, i have to settle on the style and also on the world(s) i want to portray. And this is where i could still use some inspiration. As i said, think Thor Movies (especially all the Asgard stuff) and maybe also some form of Final Fantasy-ish flavour and similar games. I also quite like the fantasy side of Star Wars. The whole Jedi/Sith stuff is very cool and the visualization of some of the old tempels and costumes of those knightly orders are very much to my liking.
Anyway, as i said, any pointers would be helpful...and they can also be purely visual (as in pictures or links to pics on deviant-art or pinterest etc. ).
Thanks again.
The Eldar (and to some extent 40K generally) have always given off a strong science-fantasy vibe to me - swords, psionics, martial arts:
Link (http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/post/full/eldar-warhammer-40000-%D1%84%D1%8D%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%8B-art-809423.jpeg)
Link (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/106251/2873230-warhammer_40000_eldar.jpg)
Though it's more steampunk than science-fantasy Warmachine also might have some imagery worth drawing on:
Link (http://www.plus1gaming.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Warmachine_MKII_by_andreauderzo.jpg)
Link (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HX5XRuBz2E8/TWQvrLsdlEI/AAAAAAAAB8Q/2eLob70E4VA/s1600/retribution-of-scyrah.jpg)
Shadowrun mixes fantasy and cyberpunk together:
Link (http://www.hardcoregamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/32.jpg)
Link (http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130916064244/steamtradingcards/images/a/a6/Shadowrun_Returns_Background_Seamstresses_Union.jpg)
So basically you want spelljammer? Or is it more like eberron? Both just use magic in the role of technology while continuing to assume that mechanical automation, transistors, and electric grids never happened. Star wars is straight fantasy; im pretty sure george lucas watched Akira Kurosawa's film The Hidden Fortress - which he would have studied in film school - and thought he could just stick the same plot in "spaaaaaaaace" and call samurai "jedi". Aside from the existance clothing, im not sure anything else was even grounded j science. That rant done, start be deciding how science enters into your science fantasy. What you describe sounds simply like fantasy with modern conveniences attributed to magic instead of a couple centuries of innovation. Answer questions like, "why wasnt the steam engine created when the technology is present in any civiliazion capable of creating plate armor?" And, "whay is t there a combustion engine?" And "why isnt there electricity?" And "why arent there transistors?". Those 4 things pretty much built our modern society. If any of those do exist, you will have many more similar questions to answer about other innovations based on them: if combustion engines exsit, are there cars, trains, planes, diesel ships, etc? If electricity exists, theres a ton of thjngs to consider. Of course if you ignore the science part of science fantasy, you can just ignore everything ive said and justify arbitrary decisions with world fluff. Either option is valid, but it does change what genre you are operating within.
Dude this is insane. I've been meaning to post something about this. I was thinking of a Science Fantasy setting lately too.
I think there are three types of Science Fantasy that I can recall.
1. Scientific Regression. The best example of this is Dragonriders of Pern. Early human settlers try to make a life on the Planet Pern, but horrifying parasitic fungus type things keep invading every once in a while, and so in a desperate attempt to keep the scurge at bay, they take the native alien beings that resemble dragons and genetically engineer them to be sentient giants that breathe phospherous gas, and form an order to protect the planet, and after that the society goes medieval feudalism.
Similar thing that just came to mind, Attack on Titan.
2. Magic is Science. Fullmetal Alchemist is probably the best example of this, but magic basically works like science. Wizardry is more a mathematical formula, than say a mystic ritual that has no boundaries in reality.
3. Science is Magic. Well this is probably what you're going for, but like you said Thor and GotG. I keep trying to think of other examples of this, but I keep coming up short to be honest. WELL actually I said that, but Dune kind of works. I mean there's not really any technology in that story, and the people travel through space time through psionics, so that could count as "mystical science".
Actually I just thought of a fourth one. Magic vs. Science: where magic and technology both exist simultaneously but are constantly competing with one another. Examples are of course Urban Fantasy, but there was a setting called Dragonmech where the moon is falling apart and alien monsters are invading, so the dwarves started building mechs to combat the lunar menace, Elves started turning trees into huge golems, and necromancers started merging corpses and monster skeletons together to form giant zombies that fought. If the Lunar invaders are ever dealt with, there's no doubt there's going to be a war over magic and machinery. The druids themselves tend to be eco-terrorists who climb aboard mechs and destroy them from the inside.
Science fantasy with Fate-like mechanics, you say? (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Asura) :grin:
Under the premise I'm working with Spelljammer and Eberron is very much not what I'm looking for. For me, I want hard sci-fi with potentially realistic starships like you'd see in any sci-fi movie: Star Wars or Star Trek. For all intents and purposes, I want to seem like Traveller or any futuristic sci-fi setting, but use the Pathfinder RPG rules to accomplish everything - with replacements for the caster classes with tech equivalents. Santiago setting doesn't have an equivalent for wizard, so I've created an alternate version as a code hacker, though cleric is engineer, paladin is barrister, etc.
@ Steerpike - Thanks for the pics, it's appreciated. I guess i will have to look into WH40K a bit. It's a bit too gothic for me i guess :D But it has nice stuff, artwise. Warmachine is the tabletop side of Ironkingdoms...i liked the rpg world. But as you said, it's more steampunky than what i imagine for science fantasy.
I guess the real problem is with definitions...everybody understands something different when he reads science fantasy. For me it's the mixing of Sci Fi with Fantasy. There is no need to take the science too literal. I don't want an scientific explanation for everything in my fantasy. I just want the ...for lack of a better word...outfit to be technologically inspired looking, if that makes sense.
Anyway, moving on...
@ Humabout - I don't agree that SW is fantasy. For me, the whole force and jedi/sith thing is fantasy, yes, but the rest of the franchise is very much Sci Fi. It's all technics and engeneering, oil and screws and stuff...very much technological development to a higher degree than in our world. Is it explained into detail? No, certainly not, but that is not necessary. If that is your criteria for sci fi, that all has to be explained logically, there is almost no setting that qualifies.
In a sci fantasy setting of my definition, everything "technological" is not so much a feat of engeneering but of occult/magic/alchemy. So it might all look like it is a machine or engine that is run by our real-world laws, but the inner workings are different as the fuel is mystical energy and stuff and not oil or gasoline (maybe there could be liquid mana or something so that you have kind of a "combustion fluid" to work with...might even be cool ^^ ).
Not sure if it's clearer now. As i said, not that much interested in hard Science...only in the veneer of technology. I guess the most often used term for what i am trying to explain is Magi-Tech.
@ Love of Awesome - Hehe..cool *high five* ;)
I guess you are right, my intended version is your point 3. It's also how i internally explained to me the stuff seen in Thor. Magi-Tech. I am not well read in the marvel universe, if there are comics that explain this stuff in more detail, i'd be interested. As a side note, your point 2 can also be interesting. Your example of FMA is something i could work with as well. So thanks for reminding me.
@ sparkletwist - This looks real cool! Thanks! I will read it. Is there a development thread for it?
Quote from: Eilathen
@ Steerpike - Thanks for the pics, it's appreciated. I guess i will have to look into WH40K a bit. It's a bit too gothic for me i guess :D But it has nice stuff, artwise. Warmachine is the tabletop side of Ironkingdoms...i liked the rpg world. But as you said, it's more steampunky than what i imagine for science fantasy.
I guess the real problem is with definitions...everybody understands something different when he reads science fantasy. For me it's the mixing of Sci Fi with Fantasy. There is no need to take the science too literal. I don't want an scientific explanation for everything in my fantasy. I just want the ...for lack of a better word...outfit to be technologically inspired looking, if that makes sense.
Anyway, moving on...
@ Humabout - I don't agree that SW is fantasy. For me, the whole force and jedi/sith thing is fantasy, yes, but the rest of the franchise is very much Sci Fi. It's all technics and engeneering, oil and screws and stuff...very much technological development to a higher degree than in our world. Is it explained into detail? No, certainly not, but that is not necessary. If that is your criteria for sci fi, that all has to be explained logically, there is almost no setting that qualifies.
In a sci fantasy setting of my definition, everything "technological" is not so much a feat of engeneering but of occult/magic/alchemy. So it might all look like it is a machine or engine that is run by our real-world laws, but the inner workings are different as the fuel is mystical energy and stuff and not oil or gasoline (maybe there could be liquid mana or something so that you have kind of a "combustion fluid" to work with...might even be cool ^^ ).
Not sure if it's clearer now. As i said, not that much interested in hard Science...only in the veneer of technology. I guess the most often used term for what i am trying to explain is Magi-Tech.
@ Love of Awesome - Hehe..cool *high five* ;)
I guess you are right, my intended version is your point 3. It's also how i internally explained to me the stuff seen in Thor. Magi-Tech. I am not well read in the marvel universe, if there are comics that explain this stuff in more detail, i'd be interested. As a side note, your point 2 can also be interesting. Your example of FMA is something i could work with as well. So thanks for reminding me.
@ sparkletwist - This looks real cool! Thanks! I will read it. Is there a development thread for it?
Based on this post and the rest of the thread, I think what could become the biggest issue is simply the label - don't worry about what it's called; do what
you want for your setting's theme. The only advice I have on top of what others have said is to be consistent, which is coincidentally what science is all about. Do whatever you have to do to create an internal consistency with the "technology" you are using - for example, you could create a tech tree outlining where alchemy/magic has taken things from a certain point in real-world technological advancement.
Despite your argument, it really does sound like Star Wars is similar to what you want. The difference between science fiction and science fantasy/space opera is that science fiction is largely speculative; science fiction goes to various lengths to explain how future technology evolved from modern ones, while science fantasy provides advanced technologies that can do wonderful things simply to serve the narrative - they don't need detailed explanations because they work, and as long as their use is consistent within the world they are presented, it doesn't really matter. For these reasons, you might find more inspiration for your own setting design by taking a long, slow look at the way Star Wars tells its story and the tools it uses to do so.
You're right that 40K generally has a more Gothic/horror vibe than what I think you're going for, Eilathen, but the Eldar specifically - and perhaps the Tau - are much less about daemons, spikes, and grotesque cyberpunk augmentations, and more about sleek speeder-bikes and laser-lances and elegant power-armour:
Link (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gBkZokdGPb4/UcTnvgfb2kI/AAAAAAAACf8/lbhFp567w2c/s1600/Eldar+Jetbike.jpg)
Link (http://wh40kart.im/_images/4b89696daed34338ee58325a05748def.jpg)
Link (http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/311/4/2/eldar_howling_banshee_exarch_by_heebster-d6td2f0.jpg)
Link (http://wh40kart.im/_images/623fbb1cc0211b12739f2925aca24616.jpg)
The Tau have a slightly different aesthetic, but they're still much less gruesome than most residents of the 40K universe, while preserving the general science-fantasy feel:
Link (http://warhammer40kbookreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Taus-Battlesuit.jpg)
Link (http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/post/full/warhammer-40000-%D1%84%D1%8D%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%8B-tau-empire-fire-warriors-742348.jpeg)
Quote from: EilathenThis looks real cool! Thanks! I will read it. Is there a development thread for it?
Unfortunately, not really. Most of the discussion took place on the wiki, or on IRC. If you have specific questions I'm happy to answer them, though.
@ Space Hoers - I know what you're saying. And i agree in general. The problem at the moment is, that i have no clear vision yet. I have some opinions (obviously :D ) and some stylistic ideas/preferances...but i haven't settle on anything definite yet. So this thread IS helpful, just in case it comes across as me shooting down all opinions and examples in here. I am just responding to some with my thoughts...i am not trying to discount anyone's opinion.
So in other words - please keep ideas, recommendations etc flowing :)
@ Steerpike - Thanks again for providing visual inspiration, i appreciate it. I am a very visual guy.
@ sparkletwist - I really like the hindu/india kind of flavor of your setting. It reminds me a lot of Exalted in it's basic idea-structure and the Prana (=Essence) fueled powers etc. . Are there any maps for the different worlds and continents?
Quote from: Gamer Printshop
Under the premise I'm working with Spelljammer and Eberron is very much not what I'm looking for. For me, I want hard sci-fi with potentially realistic starships like you'd see in any sci-fi movie: Star Wars or Star Trek. For all intents and purposes, I want to seem like Traveller or any futuristic sci-fi setting, but use the Pathfinder RPG rules to accomplish everything - with replacements for the caster classes with tech equivalents. Santiago setting doesn't have an equivalent for wizard, so I've created an alternate version as a code hacker, though cleric is engineer, paladin is barrister, etc.
Start by reading this site (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/) and this site (http://www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/) in their entirety. There are a ridiculous number of misconceptions regarding what "realistic" is in terms of spacefaring.
Quote from: EilathenI don't agree that SW is fantasy. For me, the whole force and jedi/sith thing is fantasy, yes, but the rest of the franchise is very much Sci Fi. It's all technics and engeneering, oil and screws and stuff...very much technological development to a higher degree than in our world. Is it explained into detail? No, certainly not, but that is not necessary.
1. There is no sound in space.
2. There are no fireballs in space.
3. Spaceships do not bank when they turn.
4. Asteroid belts are not cluttered messes of rocks; NASA has been shooting probes through our three without incident or attempting to avoid anything for decades.
5. FTL breaks the most fundamental rules of physics.
6. Spacecraft are not airplanes.
7. Spacecraft are not naval vessels.
8. At best, a laser makes a clunking sound when its capacitors discharge; not a "pew pew" noise.
9. Lasers travel at the speed of light.
10. Only the point of incident of a laser can be visible outside of a bunch of smoke, and if it is, at the energy levels a weaponized laser would require, looking where it strikes without some sort of protective eyewear will likely blind you.
That's off the top of my head. I could go rewatch them and make a proper list, if you like, but Science Fiction makes an
attempt to do abide by science. It is most certainly
more than just a veneer. Star Wars ignores science in favor of whooshing sounds and lasers that go "pew pew" and distinctly travel slower than the speed of light George Lucas just made up a bunch of crap that looks good on camera and has no baring on reality in any way, shape, or form. It is simply fantasy painted in feaux technology. There is no science involved to garner even the label Science Fantasy.
Quote from: EilathenIf that is your criteria for sci fi, that all has to be explained logically, there is almost no setting that qualifies.
Two points: Science Fiction doesn't have to explain everything logically. It can gloss over details. I wish Arthur C. Clarke had glossed over more details. To me, his works are like reading the manual for a spaceship. But
any science fiction work needs to obey the laws of science. Failing this is the first mortal sin of bad science fiction writing.
Secondly, there are a ton of settings that do adhere as closely as the author could manage to known science of the time*. Go read almost anything by Arthur C. Clarke. The Foundation series is another good example, including not-disproven form of FTL. Ben Bova even manages to do fairly well with his tour of the solar system books, although I'd question some of his future history.
*This is a required stipulation, since science is constantly correcting itself.
Quote from: EilathenAs i said, not that much interested in hard Science...only in the veneer of technology.
So not
Science Fatnasy, just Fantasy.
Quote from: EilathenI guess the most often used term for what i am trying to explain is Magi-Tech.
So...Fantasy. Got it. Go check out Dragonstar, Spelljammer, Star Wars, Warhammer 40K, Eberron, Shadowrun, Rifts, etc.
Ok, in the same spirit as your post seems to be: What about Science FICTION did you not get? What you describe is a subgenre called Hard SF, where there is indeed some effort made to "explain" things scientifically sound...but most often then not, it's still just "make crap up" (as most authors are not scientists and the stuff they write about can not even be explained by any greater degree by real scientists) ... so by your definition, 99.95% of all literature labeled Sci Fi would be "just fantasy".
I'm sorry if my first reply seemed offensive to you. But if the only thing you want to do in here is nitpick about the term, then please don't.
Quote from: EilathenI really like the hindu/india kind of flavor of your setting. It reminds me a lot of Exalted in it's basic idea-structure and the Prana (=Essence) fueled powers etc. . Are there any maps for the different worlds and continents?
WoD and Exalted were definite influences-- the whole "players are distinct supernatural factions with pretty symbols" thing is straight out of White Wolf too.
I have a map on my old computer. I'll try to dig it up. :)
If you can't describe what you're even trying to do, then yes. Yes, defining terms is necessary. Obviously you're just doing fantasy with a futuristic facade. I, as have others, have already given you some examples you can draw on. Calling anything you're doing "science" is just a joke, however. But whatever. Doesn't seem like you're interested in anything more nuanced than Spelljammer, so I'm done with this thread.
Quote from: Humabout
If you can't describe what you're even trying to do, then yes. Yes, defining terms is necessary. Obviously you're just doing fantasy with a futuristic facade. I, as have others, have already given you some examples you can draw on. Calling anything you're doing "science" is just a joke, however. But whatever. Doesn't seem like you're interested in anything more nuanced than Spelljammer, so I'm done with this thread.
This is neither a constructive nor a mature response, and neither was your previous post. Regardless as to whether or not Eliathen has the definitions and themes of the genre correct, it adds nothing to the conversation. Being rude and condescending when conveying information will not help you get your point across. A more effective method might be to take part in a general discussion of genres and thematic elements where people can collectively discuss the ins and outs of design (something I think the CBG happens to be well-equipped for), rather than hijacking a specific thread.
Eliathen, since you are looking for ideas, you might try the TVTropes page on Science Fantasy at http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceFantasy . It has a pretty comprehensive list and might be a good starting place for further inspiration.
Thanks, Space Hoers, i see it the same way you do. Although i still want to apologize to Humabout...my last post was also kind of needlessly provokative. And that does not help anyone.
I know it is almost thread necromancy as the thread was dormant for a while. I hope you guys and gals don't mind.
And thanks i will check out the tvtropes link you posted.
If anyone wants to add to this thread, feel free to do so. I will be reading more regularly again.
@sparkletwist - Ah, good to know my "radar" was not totally off ^^ Oh and i hope you'll find that map. I'm a sucker for maps. Btw, do you have a pdf (or any other file form) of the collected work somewhere? It would be nice to have your setting in one place and local :)
I'm glad you necroed the thread; I missed it the first time, and I generally enjoy this sort of discussion. I'll give it a thorough read-through later in the afternoon.
Welcome, and thanks for dropping back by!
Quotehave some basic ideas: i want the look to be mostly fantasy with some dashing of science and when i say science i mainly mean magi-tech and "technology" in form of magically powered stuff. My big visional inspiration is, i guess, the parts of the marvel cinematic universe (i'm too much a newb in the marvel comic department) that look very fantasy-ish. For example Thor's Asgard but also some portions of the Guardians of the Galaxy movie (i loved that the blue-skinned bady had a Hammer as a weapon and not a lasergun or some such).
Since you're going for this, Marvel Unlimited lets you access a huge number of marvel's backlog of comics, and would be a great source of inspiration. I'd particularly recommend Captain Marvel's most recent comic, as well as the older Captain marvel comics, and the Guardians of the Galaxy Comic, and particularly the entire event Annihilation, which covers kind of what you're going for it seems.
QuoteI am considering having stuff like powered armor, flying ships (that are maybe even capable of interstellar flight *), huge sprawling cities, living artifical creatures and so on.
All of these things are some of my favorite things, so I really look forward to what comes from this.
Quote* i am picturing the setting as a couple of inhabited planets at the moment...maybe even in different solar systems. Not sure how the travel through space will go, maybe it is through portals or "wormholes" or maybe even "normal" spacetravel (FTL, Slipstream, Hyperspace, whatever you want to call it).
If you're keeping it small, one option would be setting the game on moons of Jovian planets. There's several examples in our own solar system of the sheer tidal forces keeping moons of Jovian planets, and I think a setting entirely on gas-giant moons would be interesting. (I actually had a setting like that once that never got very far, designed to be science fantasy of the "Elves in SPAAAACE!!" variety more than the star wars/marvel variety. I should dust that off at some point, because I don't have enough projects as it is.) By keeping it on the moons of gas giants, you also solve the interstellar travel problem, while still having a huge number of possible "planets," not to mention cloud cities actually in the atmosphere of the giants.
If you want to keep it realistic, the inhabited moons should not get any smaller than Titan, because that's the smallest we know for a fact can support an atmosphere (so long as it's far enough from its star to avoid solar radiation stripping the atmosphere, or close enough to its parent planet where it can hide inside the "parent's" magnetosphere). Bigger moons can be where ever in relation to their host planet, so long as they can generate their own magnetosphere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fantasy#Subgenres_of_science_fantasy
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8qib?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Distant-Worlds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space:_1889