The Campaign Builder's Guild

Discuss Who Will Save Us Now? here.

Rules can be found here. (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,210183.msg230203.html#msg230203)

Please post characters here. (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,210188.msg230307.html#msg230307)

The rest of the Archetypes will be up over the next couple days. If there's any in particular you're interested in, let me know and I'll make them a priority.

If you're on the fence about playing and want clarification on anything, please, feel free to ask. :)

Original Post that Started it:

[spoiler]I love play by post games because they allow for more flexibility as far as time commitment goes, and because one of my favorite times in roleplaying - ever - was playing in Steerpike's Underdeep game. The problem I've been having with this is coming up with something that doesn't completely overload me, which was the problem I had with Forbidden Arts. Here's what I've been toying with.

Who Will Save Us Now?: The greatest superhero team of all, the world's mightiest, the saviors of the planet numerous times...have been lost in dealing with the threat of The Null Terminus. Now, the b-listers, the also-rans, the sidelined, and the antiheros are forming their own teams, hoping to protect the world against the rise in super-crime...and also get the coveted spot of "greatest team there is!"

This game would work much like Underdeep, but with some variations. You'd start of with a team of 3-4 heroes. You would go around dealing with super crime and alien invasions and such...as well as media opportunities and chances to grow your rep. Teams could make alliances and even join forces and share the spotlight, or backstab each other to (in the end) look best in the public eye. You could also focus on media opportunities to build your reputation, but if too many teams do that super-crime will go unchecked.

System wise, it would use a parsed-down Mutants and Masterminds, because a known system makes things so much easier. Combat would be handled by me between turns.

If there's any interest in this, I'll get the ball rolling on getting it working ASAP.[/quote][/spoiler]

And here's some FAQ!

[ooc=Who Will Save Us Now?]
How many players would you be looking for?

About 4-5 ideally, though I could go higher. It would need at least 4 to work the way I want it to.

How big is the scope?

The world. This is about protecting the entire planet. Heroes can have their bases anywhere on the planet or even in orbit (although the orbital option will require a heavy investment to get up and running) and will have possible fires to put out anywhere. Therefore, hero teams can start anywhere on the globe.

What is the time commitment?

I'm envisioning turns taking 2 weeks, on average, so it'll be pretty low. I can make turns shorter or longer as the group decides on how much they want to play. Each turn will take about a week in universe. Players shouldn't Need to spend more than an hour total per 2 week period on the game.

How do turns work?

Stage 1) I reveal the results of the last "turn" in game and reveal new information learned.
Stage 2) Players communicate with each other and plan their orders.
Stage 3) Players finalize their orders.
Stage 4) I reveal, via PM, things they learn carrying out their orders that require responses (if any.) For example, if two hero teams cross paths and weren't expecting to, I give the commanders a chance to decide how to respond - without knowing what the other is planning.
Stage 5) Players finalize those modifications, if needed.
Stage 6) GOTO 1.

Will hero teams be locked once selected?

No! Heroes can quit if you don't want to use them anymore (or if they become liabilities in the media, or turn traitor) and death is possible (though most fights against non-mooks will end in one side escaping, or being temporarily captured, as is befitting a comic book style). New ones can be recruited as well. Teams can grow as large as you can support!

Do all my heroes have to move together?

No. Heroes can move as individuals or pairs. However, there is strenght in numbers, so it's riskier to move them alone...and if they get a media boost, it'll be less if the entire team isn't present (although higher for the heroes actually on site)

How do you get more?

You will earn Reputation from various missions. Reputation can be spent to recruit new heroes or minions and get more law-enforcement or media contacts. Your reputation at the start of the week also earns you Wealth from merchandise and licensing opportunities, which is used to buy physical objects (new bases, vehicles, etc).

[/ooc]

Added a couple more archetypes before bed.

And added some more. Android and Renegade Alien have been removed as Archetypes: Android is now a customization option for the Battlesuit, and Renegade Alien will be filed under Generic Customizations that can be added to a character.

Looks really interesting so far, and well though-out!

A couple of questions:

- Hellboy is sometimes thought of as "Dark Age" title, but it's also kind of light-hearted despite its "dark" content. Swamp Thing is from the early 80s but at times it's a horror comic and has a pretty sinister feel. How welcome are elements like demons, Lovecraftian creatures, monsters, vampires, occultism, and similarly horror-derived tropes? Is there a distinction between those kind of "dark" elements and the moral or tonal darkness, as it were, of the rest of the Dark Age, or do you want to keep those sorts of "cosmetic" elements to a minimum as well?

- How well-defined is the world and cosmology? Is this the kind of open, fuzzy-edged multiverse where we can invent planets, planes of existence, types of beings, etc, or a much more bounded, well-defined world with a specific mythos, powers, and cosmology? If I decide I want a team-member to be a disgraced Egyptian god stripped of their powers (not planning on that specifically, just a random example), would that be OK? Or someone from a made-up parallel universe? A fallen angel? A ghost? A time-traveler? Basically, how much license do players have to make stuff up about the world/universe?

- Are cities all real-world cities as predominates in Marvel or can they be fictional as common in DC?

- How long have super-heroes/villains/etc been around (or commonly known) in this universe? Was there any kind of watershed event a la Wild Cards when heroes first appeared? Do powers have any kind of common source or is it pretty much whatever you want?

All archetypes posted. See the above post for details on the two I cut.

Quote from: Steerpike
Looks really interesting so far, and well though-out!

Thanks!

Quote- Hellboy is sometimes thought of as "Dark Age" title, but it's also kind of light-hearted despite its "dark" content. Swamp Thing is from the early 80s but at times it's a horror comic and has a pretty sinister feel. How welcome are elements like demons, Lovecraftian creatures, monsters, vampires, occultism, and similarly horror-derived tropes? Is there a distinction between those kind of "dark" elements and the moral or tonal darkness, as it were, of the rest of the Dark Age, or do you want to keep those sorts of "cosmetic" elements to a minimum as well?

I have no problem with the cosmetic elements of the Iron/Dark Age or even horror elements. Really, the Bronze Age feel is more about making sure the teams are more superheroes, less wandering murder squads. So feel free to go for those kind of dark or creepy elements! I just want to keep the murder to a minimum so we can focus on the mayhem.

Brief aside your question reminded me I wanted to say: if you want a Punisher or Venom type, that's fine, just have at least one character on your team help keep their murderous impulses in check. It's best for the teams reputation, and it's more fitting tonaly.

Quote- How well-defined is the world and cosmology? Is this the kind of open, fuzzy-edged multiverse where we can invent planets, planes of existence, types of beings, etc, or a much more bounded, well-defined world with a specific mythos, powers, and cosmology? If I decide I want a team-member to be a disgraced Egyptian god stripped of their powers (not planning on that specifically, just a random example), would that be OK? Or someone from a made-up parallel universe? A fallen angel? A ghost? A time-traveler? Basically, how much license do players have to make stuff up about the world/universe?

When it comes to the Earth itself in the present day, it's pretty set as "much like the real world, with a few super villain  ruled nations a-la Latveria, although stranger things may lurk below the surface." Inventing planets, planes of existence, underground civilizations, aliens, etc is all perfectly valid. I'll be coming up with a bunch myself if people want to draw upon them for inspiration or characters. (now that Archetypes are done, that's probably coming next while I finish ironing out the crunchy bits.) However, if what you are introducing is going to be a superlative (the Space Cops, The True Plane of Fire, The Best Military In Space, etc.) check with me first to make sure I don't already have something along those lines. (FYI, I don't have a Nova Corp or Green Lantern space police organization yet, so if you want one, feel free to invent it - otherwise I probably will.) Also, if you're going a time traveler, make sure they're far enough in the future where the details of this era are fuzzy at best, and keep in mind whatever future you came from is not the definite, set in stone future - just one possibility.

Quote- Are cities all real-world cities as predominates in Marvel or can they be fictional as common in DC?

Both! Real-world cities are all present, but fictional ones are totally allowed if you want to invent your own, and i'll probably make up a few as I go along because I do that. :P Fictional countries are fine too, just make sure to keep them small.

Quote- How long have super-heroes/villains/etc been around (or commonly known) in this universe? Was there any kind of watershed event a la Wild Cards when heroes first appeared? Do powers have any kind of common source or is it pretty much whatever you want?

It's pretty much whatever you want! Go hog wild with magic or aliens or gods or angels or mutants or whatever comes to mind. As far as how long, people with powers have been a background thing throughout history, but Costumed Heroes and Villains have really only been a thing since about the year 2000 - unless you want to have an exception from the past, brought forward into the future, then they could have been one of the historical examples that formed the modern heroic age. There was a boom on both sides during WWII, but Costumed Soldiers fell out of popularity after the war.

I am debating if any group in particular (mutants and aliens especially) should face any prejudice for being powered, apart from the general fear the populace has of superhumans. (People aren't going to hate and fear you by default, but they're going to be leery to start of any group that isn't the Exarch's, who had a decade and a half of public trust to work with).

Quote from: Xathan

Quote from: Steerpike
Hellboy is sometimes thought of as "Dark Age" title, but it's also kind of light-hearted despite its "dark" content. Swamp Thing is from the early 80s but at times it's a horror comic and has a pretty sinister feel. How welcome are elements like demons, Lovecraftian creatures, monsters, vampires, occultism, and similarly horror-derived tropes? Is there a distinction between those kind of "dark" elements and the moral or tonal darkness, as it were, of the rest of the Dark Age, or do you want to keep those sorts of "cosmetic" elements to a minimum as well?

I have no problem with the cosmetic elements of the Iron/Dark Age or even horror elements. Really, the Bronze Age feel is more about making sure the teams are more superheroes, less wandering murder squads. So feel free to go for those kind of dark or creepy elements! I just want to keep the murder to a minimum so we can focus on the mayhem.

YESSS shades of Vertigo and 90s Alan Moore here I come (is it obvious that I'm excited :P)

This is all looking really cool! I'm definitely thinking Energy Controller, Mage, and Signature Weapon, and I'd like to go for a John Constantine-style character for the fourth. None of the Archetypes really seem to fit, though - does one that's focused on influence, in terms of manipulating/influencing people and knowing lots of people and having a scary-ass reputation, and on plenty of knowledge and shady rumors fit your idea of the setting?

Quote from: HippopotamusDundee

YESSS shades of Vertigo and 90s Alan Moore here I come (is it obvious that I'm excited :P)

It is, and I'm glad! :)

QuoteThis is all looking really cool! I'm definitely thinking Energy Controller, Mage, and Signature Weapon, and I'd like to go for a John Constantine-style character for the fourth. None of the Archetypes really seem to fit, though - does one that's focused on influence, in terms of manipulating/influencing people and knowing lots of people and having a scary-ass reputation, and on plenty of knowledge and shady rumors fit your idea of the setting?

Hmm. A John Constantine-style character can work within my idea of the setting, I'm just trying to figure out how to make it work within the system. Not saying it can't be done, just that it will require some careful thought. (It also is important to note that I have only ever watched that one movie with Keanu Reeves for the extent of my knowledge of Constantine.) So any additional details (How does he win fights? How does he avoid them?, Things like that) will be very helpful for further thought.

A character sheet and sample character is up. I'm going to try to finish the various customization options tonight and get baseline stats for the various archetypes up by Monday - gonna shoot for Friday, but no promises. All numbers are super tentative until I sit down and do some playtesting.

Thanks for the answers and clarifications! That's all more or less what I thought, but it's good to get some things confirmed.

Quote from: XathanHmm. A John Constantine-style character can work within my idea of the setting, I'm just trying to figure out how to make it work within the system. Not saying it can't be done, just that it will require some careful thought. (It also is important to note that I have only ever watched that one movie with Keanu Reeves for the extent of my knowledge of Constantine.) So any additional details (How does he win fights? How does he avoid them?, Things like that) will be very helpful for further thought.

Hellblazer is one of my top 5 favourite comics ever, so I feel compelled to answer here. The Reeves adaptation is a loose-at-best adaptation - I actually don't hate it as a bit of junky popcorn Gothic cinema but it's not a very good adaptation at all. Constantine in the comics is a snarky working class British mage/con-artist; unlike most characters he's aged in real time; he's also an enormous bastard. Not a "villain" but incredibly selfish, manipulative, and cunning. He mostly talks his way out of problems and it's not always clear how much of his powers are just smoke and mirrors, but he definitely does perform various rituals, create golems, summon demons, use voodoo, scry, etc. The Mage archetype is a pretty good fit for him, especially with stuff like the Occult Investigator customization option.

Are we still going to get the Android and Renegade Alien Archetypes at some point, or have you decided to drop them? Because not to put too much demand on you, but I was super excited to see those ones in particular.

Quote from: Superbright
Are we still going to get the Android and Renegade Alien Archetypes at some point, or have you decided to drop them? Because not to put too much demand on you, but I was super excited to see those ones in particular.

Right now, I'm thinking about making the Android option a 0 point customization for battlesUits, because ther is a lot of overlap there, and the Renegade Alien a customization option that could be applied to any other archetype, since it was so varied. I am thinking of making them actual archetypes still as I ponder, but realized that Speedster and Shapeshifter were left off the list and kinda should be on that list.

Please forgive any typos, I'm on my phone for remainder of day. :)

Assuming you're basing it off of the ones from Mutants & Masterminds, I can see Android remaining its own Archetype just because it was really useful for modeling all kinds of automata, constructs, and undead. But an equally strong case could be made for making them both generic options as well.

Maybe a dedicated Detective/Gumshoe/Investigator/Sleuth archetype might be good, with information/clue-gathering powers. I'm thinking of characters like Oracle, The Question, Dakota North, Commissioner Gordon, and Constantine, amongst others. Just a thought.

That's good points, on both those Arcetypes. Android and Adventuring Detective are added to the list to work on tonight!

I've got my concept:

[ic=The Furies]An all-female team of vigilantes dedicated to the cause of retribution, bringing righteous vengeance to those the law has failed, the Furies were once led by Nemesis, an Exarch renowned for her cold implacability and her preternatural ability to sense the guilt of those around her. Now, with Nemesis gone, the Furies continue her mission of justice. Nemesis' daughter, formerly known as Erinys, has taken up Nemesis' mantle in her mother's absence. All of the Furies are women who the legal system failed in some way; many began as independent superheroines who Nemesis later recruited. Operating out of a subterranean headquarters, Erebus, beneath the city of Iphigenia (nicknamed "Dis" by many of its inhabitants). Amongst those who they have helped the Furies are known as the Kindly Ones.[/ic]

So they're sort of like the Birds of Prey meets the Bat Family. The starting roster will include the new Nemesis ("Nemesis II"), Sister Siren, The Harpy, and Lady Lamia.

If Steerpike is making an all-female team of badasses, does that mean I have to make something weird and creepy and sort of gross in order to balance the universe? :P

Damn it Steerpike, I was gonna go the route of the all-female superhero team, only I was going to take a leaf out of the JoJos' book and name all of them after Electric Six songs.

Can I be one person who's a pokemon-esque monster trainer or something? I love the idea of a scientist who collects, builds, splices monsters and robots and sends them out into the fray, with support from his own inventions.

Quote from: SuperbrightDamn it Steerpike, I was gonna go the route of the all-female superhero team, only I was going to take a leaf out of the JoJos' book and name all of them after Electric Six songs.

I feel like you should still do this, that's awesome.

One of them must be named High Voltage. Well, or just Danger!

Quote from: sparkletwistIf Steerpike is making an all-female team of badasses, does that mean I have to make something weird and creepy and sort of gross in order to balance the universe?

DOOO IIITTTT!

Okay, work is crazy today, so quick replies from phone. Please make allowances for typos and autocorrects. :)

Steerpike: love the concept, can't wait to see more of them! They sound awesome.

Sparkle twist: you playing the creepy team while steerpike Would be hilarious. Up to you though!

Superbright: No reason we can't have multiple all female teams. And that concept sounds interesting and hilarious.

Love of awesome: that could totally be doable. Yu could build other creatures using existing archetypes. If the summoner/scientist is a complete noncombatant, one of the upcoming Team feature would cover him, letting you have a full team, or you could build him/her as a hero in their own right with 3 companions. (I'm picturing the Metal Men or something similar, is that kinda what you have in mind?)

I think I may end up covering the Vertigo part of our roster - Swamp Thing-like elemental, Constantine-like trickster-mage, Corinthian-like samurai-ninja, and whatever else I settle on. Hmmm, I think I feel a V for Vendetta/Watchmen inspired concept forming :P

Nice idea. I created a gritty Iron Age setting (imagine Grand Theft Heroes-with real consequences for actions) for M&M and wrote about a 100 page sourcebook about it for game playing purposes--and created an entire subway system map--only managed one solo play (it went excellently) because I could only wrangle one person's interest... so that's where I'm coming from with the below heroes who I am attempting to shoehorn into your setting.

An important question- can the heroes kill villains? The group I like the most that I wrote up would much rather just end the problems, consequences be d*mned).

From top to bottom, the hero groups that I am considering. With taglines adapted to your setting. As I understand, the jets were gifts to the group? So I tried to explain that away for some of the less wealthy groups.

[ic=Thunder (Vigilante Group)]

Nobody except their mysterious sponsor would have thought to track down Justice and provide his group resources to respond to the world's threats. Their hearts are closer to home and their methods to set things right are extrajudicial. But suffering is everywhere and they suffer when they see it. Will they overcome their predelictions to focus on the local? Does saving the entire world matter when your family is crumbling, your team is about to combust, and your soul is slipping away?

Base: Atlanta, Georgia, United States

[ic=Justice]
Justice (The Leader) "DeWayne Lucas"
-Black man who worked his way out of the Projects as a police officer.
Think: The Punisher
Relationships: Is attracted to Hood; mentors Abraxas; understands The Damned's pain.
Media: Loves it.
Age: 28

"I'm doing this for the kids. We have to keep the streets safe.

Super Soldier
Squad Tactics: All super soldiers make great tacticians. You, however, are even better than your kind at using everyone in a group to their fullest potential, able to provide bonuses to anyone you fight alongside.

[ooc=Justice]

Gangs. Gangs killed his parents; left him orphaned at 14. Lived with his alcoholic gambling uncle. Raised himself. Studied hard, owes a lot to his mentors at school, Mr. Whitaker (english) and Mrs. Brown (math). They pushed him hard. He pushed himself harder. Went to junior college on a scholarship-could have gotten scholarships to more prestigious schools but didn't have the money to move or live. Worked as campus security. Became an Officer at age 20 and finished 2 years of Junior College.

Gangs killed his fiancee. He wanted revenge, but he had to work outside the system to get the type of Justice he needed.

[/ooc][/ic]

[ic=The Damned]The Damned "Esteban Gutierrez" (Secret)
-Hispanic Martial Arts Expert
Think: Martial Arts (Jean Claude van Damme)
Relationships: Hates Abraxas and considers him a racist idiot, which is a fair assessment although Abraxas is far more the latter than the former; Is attracted to Hood; Respects and is jealous of Justice.
Media: Fears it.
Age: 31

Costumed Vigilante
Memorable Weapon (Hands): While not as powerful or iconic as a signature weapon, a Memorable Weapon certainly leaves a mark. Chose one attack type and one defence type. In addition to the damage your weapon provides, you get +2 to both when using this weapon, or +4 to one attack type, or +4 to one defence type.
(OOC: Didn't see a martial artist option)

Complication: Super Secret Identity: The rules, by default, assume you have some decree of a Secret Identity. If you have a Super Secret Identity, if your cover is ever blown, it would be devastating Perhaps your family is extra vulnerable, or would disown you. Maybe you are a defense attorney using your civilian life to gain information on targets for your costumed life. Maybe you're a reformed villain avoiding the penalties of being known for that. Whatever it is, if your identity is ever uncovered, you're taking a massive reputation hit - and while many heroes will have occasional "Identity Crisis" missions to protect their secret identities, you will have with higher frequency. (On average, it'll be an issue every 1 out of 4 weeks.)

"They're damned; I'm damned; we're all damned. The best we can do is to save another."

[ooc=The Damned]
31 years old now, he's ready to atone, because he can never forget.

Age 15, he joins the Nasty Boyz, steals, drugs, intimidates, and in an event he greatly regrets, joins in a gang-rape of a girl a year younger than him. He goes eighth, and even helping himself he can barely get up-he knows its wrong, but he goes in and out. Then Lobo slits her throat.

A year later, he's ridin' dirty and on his way to join fully in the gang as a made man. He has his target, a North Side Boy and he's sayin' goodbye to his girlfriend, who knows where he's going and doesn't want him to kill. She grabs his gun, which is loaded, they struggle- the trigger goes off and he's covered in her blood.

He goes to jail. Manslaughter only, but other crimes keep him in. He's never been punished for the intentional crime. He's never spoken of it, save in confession, after he's released 10 years hence.

He learns taekwondo, and yoga and meditation. He was Catholic. He wants to believe, but He's probably not the believing type any more. But he believes he must atone. Not that he can, but that he must. It's all that keeps him going in jail, in life. He hits harder and harder and harder. All he does is learn and train- no love-no lust-only penance. His body is a weapon and if that isn't enough, he carries a Ruger and a series of knives. And now that he's ready, he's going to protect others no matter the odds, until he dies.
[/ooc]

[ooc](Comic shot in on The Damned and another hispanic male, about the same age.
"Esteban, you puta. Cough up some more, man."
"Gustavo- I need something to live too."
"Won't have anything to live if everyone knows who you are. Them others aren't going to want to be within ten feet of you."
(Image of Esteban slapping a stack of 100 dollar bills into Gustavo's hand)
Gustavo: "Knew you were keepin' some back."
Esteban: "This is about more than just you, you know-"
Gustavo: "Yeah- it's about the childhood I never had and the papi who got took by INS because of your dumbass move shootin' your girl."
Esteban: (Face reddens).
Gustavo: "Yeah, puta. We ain't never gonna forget that. I think you owe us all a good mil', then I'll stop asking for the handouts."
Esteban (The Damned): (wistful) "Blood remembers."
Gustavo: Yeah, it does- just be thankful I was the only one who recognizes your mug up there when your doing your saving the world shit.
[/ooc][/ic]

[ic=Hood]Hood "Stephanie Williams" (Secret)
-Black lady. Fearless, but keeping her identity secret is very important for her relatives' protection.
Wears a red riding hood, mesh clothing and gloves, never shows her face.
Relationships: Respects and uses Justice for money to send to her mama in creative ways even if her mama won't accept it directly...and at least her other relatives will; likes The Damned but he keeps pushing her away; Amused by Abraxas' childlike idiocy.
Media: Hates it.
Age: 24

Energy Controller: Flame
Limit Break: You are at your best when your cards are down. Gain a +2 to attack and damage when you have taken half your toughness in damage.

Complication: Super Secret Identity: The rules, by default, assume you have some decree of a Secret Identity. If you have a Super Secret Identity, if your cover is ever blown, it would be devastating Perhaps your family is extra vulnerable, or would disown you. Maybe you are a defense attorney using your civilian life to gain information on targets for your costumed life. Maybe you're a reformed villain avoiding the penalties of being known for that. Whatever it is, if your identity is ever uncovered, you're taking a massive reputation hit - and while many heroes will have occasional "Identity Crisis" missions to protect their secret identities, you will have with higher frequency. (On average, it'll be an issue every 1 out of 4 weeks.)

[ooc=Hood]
Mama worked hard and sent her to college, the first in her family. During school, she worked as a hostess at a seedy bar/restaurant where the tips were good... but the clientele was not. She was raped, and her magic manifested. The rapist was incinerated.

She used her power in parlour tricks, to earn money, but always kept her identity a secret. Justice found her while responding to a 911 call regarding her flames.

She wants to help Mama but Mama's too smart to just accept money. Mama asked where she worked- a law firm, as a paralegal, she said. But Mama knew better. She called all the firms. When Stephanie visited with gifts... Mama: "I don't know where yo' money's comin' from. It's not from that firm, you don't work there. Child. What happened to school? What happened to church? What happened to morals and God? Where are you getting this kind of money if you're not working and you're too embarassed to tell me what you're doin'. Lawdy above-you kill me child imagining where from that money be coming."
[/ooc][/ic]

[ic=Abraxas]Abraxas (The Fool) "Rudolph Schol"
-South African Boer Strongman disqualified from Mr. Universe competition due to injections.
Think: Arnold Schwarzenegger (he certainly does)
Occasionally has 'roid rage.
Media: Loves it.
Age: 26

Brute
Power Leap: Flyers can stay out of the clutches of most Brutes. Not for you! A Brute with power leap can close the distance with even flying foes, though such attacks are more easily dodged.

Complication:
Addiction (Steroids): You have a habit for a mind altering substance, typically narcotics or alcohol, but it could be stranger. If your addiction gets out you will take a massive reputation hit, and more importantly, when held captive you gain a cumulative -2 penalty to willpower and all skills for each weak you are without your addiction.

The Damned: "Is that pisshead walking around in his thong again?"
Hood: "I don't know whether he should put more on or take it all off?"
The Damned: "You don't want to hit that-"
Hood: "No, no. If he takes it off though, it would complete the image of a dumb gorilla, for arts sake."

[ooc=Abraxas]
Justice met Abraxas after the fool was disqualified from the Mr. Universe competition and looking for the scientist who made him what he was, who is now at the CDC (he had given Abraxas a false identity). Justice stopped Abraxas for destruction of property (Abraxas, of course, had ripped a phone out of the wall after confronting a phone tree at the CDC's number.) Noticing his strength, Justice spoke with him and calmed him down and came up with the idea for the team. What really mattered to Abraxas was fame, not revenge. Mr. Universe had been denied to him, but being a hero would be even more sweet. [/ooc]
[/ic]
[/ic]

[ic=Soldiers for Christ]
Formed and strengthened by Faith, this group sees the protection of the world as a holy crusade blessed by God and his One Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The group will go to extreme lengths to avoid killing anyone because life or death is not theirs, but God's choice to judge.


Washington, DC; US

[ic=Peter the Rock]
Peter the Rock (Leader)
Media: Revels in it.
Age: 31

[ooc=Peter the Rock]And he is the Rock on which others will build their faith and through which the Church will be strengthened. Peter was always religious. When he walked away from an IED explosion in Iraq without a scratch, he knew he was chosen, and he knew that he needed to bring the word of God to all.

There came a time though when he was injured most grievous. A villain had thrust a flaming harpoon through his chest with super-strength. At that time, God brought him to Nurse, who saved him when his own strength faltered. Then Peter realized moreso than before, that he needed to gather Apostles with which he could better do God's work.
[/ooc]

Paragon
Energy Absorption (Faith): You start off strong, but if you get a power source, you can get even stronger! Choose a power source and get increased Super Strength when you have access to it.
[/ic]

[ic=Nurse]
Nurse "Wendy Roberts" (Secret)
Media: Fears and hates it.
Age: 24

Mage (Healing Magics)
Sorcerer: You are not just trained in magic, you are born to it. Your arcane power is part of you and, as such, you do not need incantations or gestures to cast.

[ooc=Nurse]
She saw the man immolated when she was 12. He claimed to be a hero. But he had evil powers. He could shoot death from his eyes. He had the mark of the beast. All people with powers from the devil deserved to die. When she realized she too had powers-she was afraid-and kept them to herself.

She worked as a nurse. And she never would have done anything else except she healed Peter the Rock when no one else could. And then they knew- she was different. But the world was different and her town was not quite so small in mind or size. Peter took her under his wing, explaining to her what she had hoped, that she had a gift of healing, like the Apostles and that she was doing it in God's names, not the Devil's. Only Supervillains had the blessing of Demons...
[/ooc][/ic]

[ic]
Preacher "John Walker"
-A Missionary.
-Bold but Caring.
-Media: Neutral to dislike.
-Age: 31

Psion
Mind Control: Not content to merely influence minds, you can outright control them, turning foes to your side or wiping memories from their mind. Note that if this is abused and discovered, it can easily lead to Reputation loss - but the power it offer is often worth the risk.

Complication:
Poor Power Control: Your power has an uncontrolled element to it. Perhaps your fire blasts tend to go awry, perhaps you turn into a rage monster when you become a brute, perhaps your spells draw the attention of dark forces. Whatever it is, when in combat, you must make a constant relevant skill, willpower, or resistance check (DC 16) to avoid losing control of your abilities and causing massive collateral damage .

[ooc=Preacher]
Can a human be saved if his mind is adjusted and his evil memories removed? Preacher mediates on this. After hearing many peoples' pain and accidentially altering their lives by removing it, he realized the existence of his abilities, if not their full extent. When he heard of Peter's good work, he went to him, seeking him as a mentor among all the rising superheroes--someone who kept Christ in the center of his life and who could be a peer if not a mentor.
[/ooc]
[/ic]

[ic]
Cross "Jeremiah Morris"
-Bold. Often in conflict with others. He is willing to risk Innocents to serve the greater good. He also sees no trouble with killing enemies of God.
-Media: Loves it.
-Age: 23

Energy Controller: Metal
Energy Form: You don't just command your chosen Energy, you are your chosen energy. While wielding your powers, you take on an energy form, making you more resistant to harm -or- providing a damage aura to those that touch you. For two Customization slots, gain both benefits.

[ooc=Cross]
Former Christian Rocker and drummer for the band Crowd of Thorns. The badboy of the group and its newest member.
[/ooc]
[/ic]

[/ic]

[ic=Nightingale Society]

A refined British super-group, sponsored by the Crown. A humorous group, constantly bickering at each other Maggie Smith style. Their symbol is the Nightingale rampant on a red and white shield that looks like a bed (recalling the revenge of Philomena and red and white for the blood and the lost purity. The Nightingale is tearing a poem in half)

[ic=Lord Kensington]
Lord Kensington (Leader)
-A member of MI-5.
-A master of disguise, of swordfighting, of umbrella-fighting, of dodging almost preternaturally.
Some say he has no special powers... and even his sword cane is merely a technological implement designed by Molly and Scotty, but he always seems to punch above his weight.

Signature Weapon (Sword-Cane)
Never Out of Reach: So long as your Signature Weapon is not restrained, you can call it to yourself from a great distance. For one rank, it needs be in the same city/region as you. For two, it can be anywhere on the continent!

Kensington: "I don't always endorse products, but when I do, I make sure they are not complete and utter shite."
Lady X: "Indeed, they're only mostly shite."
[/ic]

[ic=Lady X]
Lady x OR The Lady
-Bitter rival of the chauvinist Lord Kensington. She actually has a super power, developed during the testing of an elemental suit that accidentally became fused to her--she has mixed feelings about this and Molly and Scotty bear the brunt of her wrath when her power becomes a liability.

Energy Controller (Wind)
Energy Form: You don't just command your chosen Energy, you are your chosen energy. While wielding your powers, you take on an energy form, making you more resistant to harm -or- providing a damage aura to those that touch you. For two Customization slots, gain both benefits.

Lady X: "It is a universally acknowledged fact that each woman's experience of the glass ceiling will be the same, but her path to success will be unique."
Lord Kensington: "Is this going somewhere?"
Lady X: "Likely. The media just saw me defeat the Deadinator... while you spent the entire battle covered in goo."
[/ic]

[ic=Molly]
"Molly" Molybendium
-Scientist.
-Oblivious.

Psion
Telekinetic Force Field: You laugh at other Psions cowering behind their stronger allies. With a Telekinetic Force Field, you have an immense resistance to harm as you wrap yourself in a bubble of your own power.

Complication:
Rare Weakness (Ambrosia-Nectar allergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia)): You have a vulnerability to some quasi obscure substance. In the presence of this substance, you must make a Resistance check to avoid losing your power, and must make a toughness check against DC 18 every turn (Impervious benefits do not apply).

[ooc=Molly]Like M. Curie before her, Molly has become a bit too close to her experiments and they have manifested their powers upon her. Thankfully, the powers bestowed on her are more beneficial than dessicative. at least no one has died of Psionic decay yet...[/ooc]

[/ic]

[ic=Scotty]
Scotty
Explorer, using the best of British technology! Mostly built by himself and Molly.

Battlesuit
Threat Assessment AI: While you are a genius, it's sometimes better to let the suit do the thinking for you. With the Threat Assessment AI, you are always able to target the most important foe while greatly minimizing collateral damage.

Complication:
Poor Power Control: Your power has an uncontrolled element to it. Perhaps your fire blasts tend to go awry, perhaps you turn into a rage monster when you become a brute, perhaps your spells draw the attention of dark forces. Whatever it is, when in combat, you must make a constant relevant skill, willpower, or resistance check (DC 16) to avoid losing control of your abilities and causing massive collateral damage .

With just the right adjustment, I'll be flying away and blastin' at the quarry.
TARGET LOCKED
...You might want to get out of the way. MOLLY! Is the missile bay loaded?

[/ic]

[/ic]

[ic=The Firm]
Amidst a disaster, the members of a law firm became infused with powers related to the traditional gods of Greece, the Norse, India, and whatever is going on with Old Man Justice.

[ic=Sophia]
Sophia (Leader) "Sofia Octavia Alameda"
-Wisdom.
-Planner

Mage
Battle Mage: In addition to the mystic arts,  you are trained in the arts martial as well, and can fight in melee with fists or weapons alongside your comrades.
[/ic]

[ic=Litigator]
Litigator
-of India-Indian descent
-Hard Driving.

Animal Powered
Multi-Beast (Elephant, Tiger, Brahmin Bull- traditional animals of India): Instead of mimicing a single animal, you can shift your power between the gifts of multiple animals. For 1 rank, have 3 related animals you can switch between. For 2 ranks, have 6 animals with no relation needed.[/ic]

[ic=Old Man Justice]
"Old Man" Justice
-Wheelchair bound old partner.
-Sleeps most of the time.

Psion
Long Range Telepathy: You don't need to be near someone to read their mind. You can find the minds of others at great range and use your telepathy upon them! While other heroes or mastermind villains have willpower strong enough to resist you, the secrets of the weak willed are yours.

Complication
Reformed Villain: Due to a past on the wrong side of the law, people have difficulty trusting you. Your team starts with 10 less reputation, and you take a -4 penalty to manipulation checks to convince heroes to trust you. (Note that if you are a reformed villain and that is not publicly known, this does not apply)

[ooc]He represented the Tobacco lobby for 30 years and switched to the Gun lobby just at the wrong time for tobacco-when he left their defense-they lost a string of scathing victories. If he had represented them, they would have kept on winning. Crotchety Cartoonesque Scroogeish ultra-libertarian money-grabber. His wheelchair is armed more than some European nations.[/ooc]

[/ic]

[ic=No Fool]
No Fool "Luis Octavio Alameda"
-Irreverent.
-Loki. (Sophia's brother who worked as a paralegal).
-Robs places. Works against the group behind its back.
[/ic]

Paragon
Energy Absorption: You start off strong, but if you get a power source, you can get even stronger! Choose a power source and get increased Super Strenght when you have access to it.

[/ic]

---
Comment:

Considering the below two for balance, wouldn't it make more sense to make limit break a +3 or +4-->


Limit Break: You are at your best when your cards are down. Gain a +2 to attack and damage when you have taken half your toughness in damage.

Memorable Weapon: While not as powerful or iconic as a signature weapon, a Memorable Weapon certainly leaves a mark. Chose one attack type and one defence type. In addition to the damage your weapon provides, you get +2 to both when using this weapon, or +4 to one attack type, or +4 to one defence type.

General update!

I have the Speedster, Adventuring Detective, and Android written up, as well as a fairly decent list of general customization options and a few drawbacks. Those have been added to the main thread. I'm going to have two more archetypes - the Shapeshifter and the Heroic Monster - semi planned if anyone wants to see them, but I'm not going to work on writing them out unless there's interest - at that point I think I have a pretty complete list I'm happy enough to leave it at that unless someone requests something that can't be done with an existing archetype and some new customizations.

Next step is to sit down and get serious about the crunch. I'll need to lay out the baseline stats for each archetype and explain what those mostly fluffy customization options can do. Most archetypes will get two or three more customization options to choose from as well. I'm also going to be breaking down the rules more clearly, since right now it's all in my head which is of zero use to you guys. :P The plan is to have that done, or at least a good dent made in it, by Monday or Tuesday, after which I'll lay out the rules for team customization and bases.

Also, as I design crunch, I'm going to ask you all for a favor. I know my brain and I'm going to avoid setting things at 3, 7, and 11 instinctively while designing crunch. While I'm going to try to catch myself in that, if I put something on a number on either side of one of those when it would probably be better -at- one of those numbers, make sure to point it out, because I won't notice and would probably drop it or raise it too much because of that.

Now, responses!

Quote from: HippopotamusDundee
I think I may end up covering the Vertigo part of our roster - Swamp Thing-like elemental, Constantine-like trickster-mage, Corinthian-like samurai-ninja, and whatever else I settle on. Hmmm, I think I feel a V for Vendetta/Watchmen inspired concept forming :P

Awesome, I'm looking forward to seeing that team come together! Also, you're going to make me want to read more Vertigo. (This is not a bad thing)

Quote from: Light Dragon
Nice idea. I created a gritty Iron Age setting (imagine Grand Theft Heroes-with real consequences for actions) for M&M and wrote about a 100 page sourcebook about it for game playing purposes--and created an entire subway system map--only managed one solo play (it went excellently) because I could only wrangle one person's interest... so that's where I'm coming from with the below heroes who I am attempting to shoehorn into your setting.

Hehehe. I'm convinced 90% of the characters people play in superhero games (myself included!) are ones they are taking from another setting and shoehorning in, because people get really attached to their hero concepts.

QuoteAn important question- can the heroes kill villains? The group I like the most that I wrote up would much rather just end the problems, consequences be d*mned).

Heroes CAN just kill the villains. However, you're going to lose reputation if you do it frequently, or have to spend a lot of time focusing on the media to offset the negative impacts of your reputation losses. Since reputation is tied to advancement, this could be very tricky. Death to villains should be infrequent...and many mastermind villains will have plenty of options to avoid death. A hero team with the primary goal of "kill" will get less captures, since the villains will pull out all the stop to win or escape if death is on the line. Also, you do run the risk of other heroes deciding that your team are villains. Not sure how you feel about that, but do keep it in mind.

So I'm not going to say that you can't kill villains. I am going to say your job is going to become much harder if you do...but given how many anti-heroes are portrayed, that might not really be a downside.

QuoteFrom top to bottom, the hero groups that I am considering. With taglines adapted to your setting. As I understand, the jets were gifts to the group? So I tried to explain that away for some of the less wealthy groups.

Jets are gifts, although I'm debating limiting it to 1 for start to make movement powers more useful. Will decide when I do the full rules write up. I'm going to give you my "initial impressions" on each of these for now, since it's late and I want to get a few more things done before I pass out for the night. :)

Thunder (The Vigilante Group)

(SNIP) [/quote]

I really do like the sound of this group. Their murderous leanings aside, it's a very well thought out and interesting team. Aside: There will be a martial artist option in the customizations, and I totally left it out of this update, so promise I'll get one out in the next update. (Makes sticky note to make sure I don't forget*

Also, want to mention here that all heroes start with two customization options, three if you take a drawback. So your people have more options than they have taken - but I'd suggest waiting till I get the full rule update finish to pick a second one. :)

Quote

Soldiers for Christ

SNIP

I don't think I've ever seen a full on Jesus themed super hero team. I love this one so much! It's just the right kind of crazy. The team on the whole seems solid.

Quote

The Nightingale Society

SNIP

This makes me think of what the Kingsmen would come up with if they existed in a world with superheroes. That is a complement. The right kind of crazy, again, and wonderfully British to boot.

Quote

The Firm

-SNIP-

A law firm endowed with the power of various myths? That's...also the right kind of crazy, to repeat myself. I really like the sound of these people, and I think the potential for intra and extra group conflict is high with them.

Unfortunately, I don't seem to have a favorite out of these groups, they're all awesome for different reasons. I will say the first group would probably want to tone down the killer instinct a bit, but beyond that, they'd all fit in different ways.

Quote
Comment:

Considering the below two for balance, wouldn't it make more sense to make limit break a +3 or +4-->


Limit Break: You are at your best when your cards are down. Gain a +2 to attack and damage when you have taken half your toughness in damage.

Memorable Weapon: While not as powerful or iconic as a signature weapon, a Memorable Weapon certainly leaves a mark. Chose one attack type and one defense type. In addition to the damage your weapon provides, you get +2 to both when using this weapon, or +4 to one attack type, or +4 to one defense type.

I see your point there, and since no numbers are yet final I may go back to change it, but it's worth noting that Limit Break applies to ALL attacks and damage the character possesses, while memorable weapon is only applied when wielding your particular weapon, which can be disarmed or may not be on you at the moment. However, since Limit Break does require taking some heavy hits first, I'm either going to reduce the damage threshold needed to activate Limit Break (so it comes up more often) or increase the bonus to a +3/+4, because as of right now you're right, it is too little reward for the cost.

[ic=Corcaigh's Circle]
Friends and allies of the Irish trickster-druid Aedan Corcaigh, the Circle are a loosely knit organization of individuals known for meddling and interfering in situations of a mythic or folkloric nature. Though scattered over the world, the talents of the group's various members mean they're never more than an hour away if needed and so even strictly local concerns - the rampage of a murderous nuckalavee in County Kerry, for example - normally attract at least a few others from the Circle to investigate and learn. Corcaigh's Circle is a large group, with varying levels of closeness and reliability - what is presented here are those that might be termed the 'Inner Circle' - the most friendly and loyal of Corcaigh's allies.

Base: Cork, County Kerry, Ireland (if anywhere); in practical terms, all over.

Aedan Corcaigh ('Leader')
A hedonist and alcoholic who has sold too many parts of his soul and liberty to powerful fae and elementals for the sake of those they threatened. The magical equivalent of a jackdaw, his magic is grounded in the remnants of Druidic and Celtic practice that survived through Christianized folklore but he is also competent at Galdr rune-chants and the talismanic root-working of American Hoodoo.

[ooc=OOC Information]
Mage
Know the Streets: +4 to Streetwise checks, and you gain a network of informants in the criminal world.
Occult Investigator: You get +4 to Occult, and a +2 to Investigate supernatural missions.
Network (Corcaigh's Circle; Occult): You have a network of people working for you who will feed you information and keep their eyes open. It will provide you additional missions based on what kind of network it is, and when making a check of the above type to investigate a mission, once per week, you can re roll and use the higher result.

Addiction: You have a habit for alcohol. If your addiction gets out you will take a massive reputation hit, and more importantly, when held captive you gain a cumulative -2 penalty to willpower and all skills for each week you are without your addiction.


Reference Points: John Constantine. Silver John. Shades of Atticus O'Sullivan and Harry Dresden.
[/ooc]

Hattori Hanzo
A legendary figure of the Sengoku Era, Hattori Hanzō's supreme mastery of Iga-ryu ninjitsu was whispered by the peasantry of Japan to have given him inhuman powers - teleportation, psychokinesis, and precognition. Though these were mere rumours born from his creative use of secret ninja powders and techniques, his years as a Buddhist monk and perfectly refined skills at concealment and deception did allow him to evade the Shinigami when his time came and escape the limits of a mortal lifespan.

[ooc=OOC Information]
Signature Weapon
Master of Darkness: You get a +4 to Stealth, and minions automatically fail awareness checks against you unless you start attacking - and even then, they still must make them!
Penetrating Attack: Chose one attack. Through knowledge of pressure points, raw might, the ability to analyze subtle weaknesses, or another effect, that attack is treated as twice it's rank for the purpose of overcoming toughness.
The Myth Makes the Weapon: You don't just carry a weapon out of myths. You are the man or woman who made the myths! In addition to the benefits of the Signature Weapon, you gain improved strength and durability from your legendary status - even when unarmed.

Rare Weakness (Japanese funereal incense & Ihai spirit-tablets): You have a vulnerability to some quasi obscure substance. In the presence of this substance, you must make a Resistance check to avoid losing your power, and must make a toughness check against DC 18 every turn (Impervious benefits do not apply).


Reference Points: Hattori Hanzō, samurai-ninja and grandmaster of the Iga-ryu.
[/ooc]

Puli
An ancestral spirit-being of the Australian desert, Puli is one of the last and least creators recognized by the Pitjantjatjara people: a great python-spirit whose slithering and undulations across the desert sands formed the beds of the few streams that cross their territory. After curling up and sinking the greatest portion of its power into the land to form the ridge of sandstone hills that bear its name, the remnant intelligence that Aedan Corcaigh contacted in the early 2000s for help defeating a corrupt kurdaitcha-man was all that remained of the once-mighty Puli.

[ooc=OOC Information]
Energy Controller
Energy Form: You don't just command your chosen Energy, you are your chosen energy. While wielding your powers, you take on an energy form, making you more resistant to harm -or- providing a damage aura to those that touch you. For two Customization slots, gain both benefits.
Energy Walk: You can use your chosen energy as a conduit between two locations, allowing instant transmission anywhere you wish! So long as you have a conduit of your chosen energy, you can travel without assistance anywhere in the world in a single turn. For extremely common elements, like Earth and Air, you are limited to within the same continent without assistance.

Reference Points: Swamp Thing. Treebeard. The Stone of the Terranon.
[/ooc]

Bouda
A tribal blacksmith and healer from Southern Africa, Bouda was born more than a century ago and no longer even remembers their name. During their coming-to-manhood they were stricken with the curse of therianthropy, losing the identity that had been theirs as they merged with the terrible hyena-spirit that entered into them and become one singular entity driven by the hunger and instincts of the beast and the empathy and wisdom of the man.

[ooc=OOC Information]
Animal-Powered/Heroic Monster?
[/ic]

I love the team, Hippo. You're right, very much Vertigo comics, which is a good thing. :)

For Bouda, Animal powered definitely works - the shapeshifting lycanthropsey is totally doable with the existing powers. Probably will seem more strongly like it once I finish the archetype's stats and all customization options.

Just out of curiosity, what year is this supposed to be set in and how closely does the timeline match ours? I want to know how one of my ideas, The Internationales, would fit into the setting?

Quote from: Superbright
Just out of curiosity, what year is this supposed to be set in and how closely does the timeline match ours? I want to know how one of my ideas, The Internationales, would fit into the setting?

Time period is a semi-generic "now-ish." It takes place in 2015, and everything is pretty much as it is in the real world, but there's 15 years of known superheroes. There were some heroes prior to that, but it was mostly A quiet affair, exempting world war 2. Prior to that? Feel free to make up or add to history, so long as it gets us the current world in the end. There's also fictional countries and cities, so long as it does take up a huge area, feel free to add there too. :)

Since I have a personal goal to post something new for you all rules-wise every day until the game is ready to go, added the turn information just now. Still working on the write up for cruncher things and on track to have that done (posted piecemeal) by Monday or Tueday still, after which point there will be a final setting update, a chance to Finalize character creation, and we'll be hopefully starting by the 16th, barring any slowdowns.

If there's anything in particular you're waiting on for character creation to help make decisions, please let me know and I'll put it on top of my "to do when taking a break from crunch" pile. :)

HippopotamusDundee- I like how you organized your information! And Puli is frightening.
-
Xathan- Thank you for the feedback. I also realized I left out one thing about The Damned (I am now adding it above and here below)
Thank you also for pointing out that I have more opportunities for special abilities!
It will still be a difficult decision between the groups. I think I can tone down the bloodthirstiness of the first group a bit-given that they do want money-so if it's that or nothing, sometimes they won't, but other times they may just be self destructive and kill the b*****s.

[ic](Comic shot in on The Damned and another hispanic male, about the same age.
"Esteban, you puta. Cough up some more, man."
"Gustavo- I need something to live too."
"Won't have anything to live if everyone knows who you are. Them others aren't going to want to be within ten feet of you."
(Image of Esteban slapping a stack of 100 dollar bills into Gustavo's hand)
Gustavo: "Knew you were keepin' some back."
Esteban: "This is about more than just you, you know-"
Gustavo: "Yeah- it's about the childhood I never had and the papi who got took by INS because of your dumbass move shootin' your girl."
Esteban: (Face reddens).
Gustavo: "Yeah, puta. We ain't never gonna forget that. I think you owe us all a good mil', then I'll stop asking for the handouts."
Esteban (The Damned): (wistful) "Blood remembers."
Gustavo: Yeah, it does- just be thankful I was the only one who recognizes your mug up there when your doing your saving the world shit.
[/ic]

[ic=Thunder Vignette]
Thunder is on the jet for the first time.

Hood: (giggles and twees) "I've always wanted to be on a plane. It all looks like toys down there. Look at this-"
Damned: (holding his head) "yeah-"
Hood: You all right? You look sick. You flown before?
Damned: Course I have-
Justice: when. where to?
Damned: ...
Hood: Ha! Just like me- first time.
Damned: (Grumbles and uses the vomit bag).
Justice: I will admit to this also being my first opportunity to fly.
Hood: So we're all new to this-
Justice: I suspect Abraxas has flown before.
Abraxas: Da? (between mouthfuls of a meatball sub and taking up two seats)
Hood: No, I don't see him as that sophisticated... He can't of flown.
Abraxas: Da I flow. I can't swim here from Africa.
Hood: Yeah, I suppose you'd have sunk.[/ic]

Since I like keeping everyone up to date as to where I am, progress-wise, I have the Archetype statblocks written up for Paragon, Costumed Adventurer, Battlesuit, Energy Controller, Psion, Psion, Brute, and Super Soldier done. I'm not going to post them until I have all the archetypes done, so I can sit with them and can compare for balance as well as accidental overlap, but just fyi as far as my progress.

Actually writing out the combat rules may end up being the hardest part of this, just because I'm so easily distracted while writing up crunch. :P

Quote from: Light Dragon
HippopotamusDundee- I like how you organized your information! And Puli is frightening.

You're right about how the information is organized. I'm gonna steal elements of that for the "official character sheet" format.

QuoteXathan- Thank you for the feedback. I also realized I left out one thing about The Damned (I am now adding it above and here below)
Thank you also for pointing out that I have more opportunities for special abilities!

Very welcome! :) I like the little scenes, they're fun to read.

QuoteIt will still be a difficult decision between the groups. I think I can tone down the bloodthirstiness of the first group a bit-given that they do want money-so if it's that or nothing, sometimes they won't, but other times they may just be self destructive and kill the b*****s.

As long as you, the player, are cool with knowing it would be self destructive to do so, then I won't stop you. :)

That being said, as interesting as they are, I think the other 3 teams might be a little bit better fit for the overall tone of the game.  Won't stop you from playing Thunder, because I think they can work, but thought I'd share that.

Quote from: Light Dragon
HippopotamusDundee- I like how you organized your information! And Puli is frightening.

It's really just a variation on what you did, so I can't take the credit. And I'm glad you like them - I felt that with a global theme for my team there was no excuse not to have a little Australian pride.

Here's one of the Furies, more to come:

[ic=The Harpy]Alexandra (Alex) Vladimirovna came to America as a mail-order bride, glad to escape the chauvinist wage-slavery of Russia for the comparatively egalitarian US. Unfortunately, her husband, Charles, was not the shy, kindly soul he'd presented himself as online, but a vicious drunk and meth-head every bit as vile and demeaning as the worst misogynists of the Motherland. Her every request, however reasonable, was met first with apathy, then with derision; she was treated as little more than a servant, forbidden even to leave the house. After three years of abuse – just long enough to obtain her citizenship – Alex demanded a divorce, but Charles became violent, attacking her with a kitchen knife. As he lurched at her, spitting obscenities, promising to cut her throat, a terrible anger welled up inside her, an irrepressible rage. With a strength she didn't know she possessed, Alex broke first her husband's wrist, then his neck. Moments later the police, responding to a neighbour's noise complaint, kicked down the door. Still filled with rage, Alex turned on the police officers, grabbing the knife and charging at them only to be subdued by a Taser. She was tried, convicted, and sentenced to eight years in prison for manslaughter in the second degree. Her claims of self-defence fell upon deaf ears; she had assaulted law enforcement officers, and the predominantly male jury were unsympathetic. The prosecution painted her as a deranged addict who killed her husband in a drug-induced frenzy, a foreign parasite who'd conned her way into America and corrupted a good man with her vices before taking his life. She became known as the "Harpy Bride," smeared in the press as a monster.

Prison was not kind to Alex at first, but after a few months she fell in with a Russian gang operating inside. She worked her way up through the ranks, discovering that she could channel her anger and the strength it gave her. Little did Alex know that her preternatural might was actually the result of a genetic mutation caused by exposure to radiation from Chernobyl when she was still in utero; she only knew that her rage lent her power, a  power she learned to harness and refine. By the time she finished her sentence she'd become the gang-leader and had been crowned a Vor, or thief in law, in the Russian mob, an honour usually only bestowed on those repeatedly convicted. Tattooed and hardened from years of breaking bones, shivving rivals, and sleeping with one eye open, she continued to rise in the organization, working as an enforcer and hit-woman. During this time she adopted the name Alkonost – a beautiful but deadly bird-woman from Russian folklore – and became one of the most feared mobsters on the east coast. Such was the rapidity of her ascension, however, that she engendered significant resentment from some her fellow thieves in law. Sent on a mission to collect the debts of a dealer from Dis' east-side, she found herself double-crossed by none other than her former cellmate, nicknamed "Zmey." She fought her way out of the ambush that met her, injuring Zmey but suffering several gunshot wounds herself. It was then that Nemesis appeared to her. The Fury had considered taking her out, but while researching her career she realized how Alex had been misused by the law, while recognizing something of her own cold rage in the young Russian. She offered her a place amongst the Furies; betrayed by the mob and desiring vengeance for the double-cross, Alex agreed.

As one of the Furies, Alex repurposed the name she was once attacked with, becoming the Harpy. Exacting righteous vengeance upon the guilty has proved little different from her work as a mob enforcer, though she has learned to limit her collateral damage and to exercise restraint where necessary. Like all of the Furies, her coal-black costume incorporates serpentine and bat-like imagery – scale armour, a bat-wing cape allowing for limited gliding capabilities, and a cowl with glowing red eyes. Blonde-haired and blue-eyed, she has the face of a perfect china doll, a Slavic Barbie, but years of prison, work for the Russian mob, and her own budding mutant might have made her massively strong, with a bodybuilder's frame. She still bears the tattoos of a thief in law: an eight-pointed star for her rank, an Orthodox cross, ОМУТ on the back of her left hand, the head of the Devil on the back of her right. Where the other Furies utilize weapons extensively, she is most effective with her fists, armed with specially designed knuckledusters that augment her already prodigious strength.[/ic]

She'll be a Brute archetype, with the Reformed Villain complication, I think.

I love Harpy. Very fitting, and that backstory...yeah,, I can see where the anger issues came from. :P

Brute might work for her, but we may want to discuss some trade offs once I get the stats posted - Brute's, in terms of strength and durability, are intend to be Hulk types, which may be stronger than you had in mind for her. If not, though, that's totally cool: character is awesome either way. :)

Hulk might be a little strong, but strength is her primary power, and she is a legit mutant.

I hope she hits the Bronze Age target relatively well. As I understand it the Bronze Age was often very invested in social issues (Iron Man's alcoholism for example) without the dark excesses of the Iron Age. The Harpy is reasonably dark (mail order bride turned ex-con assassin), but not so much that it's off-putting, I hope.

No, I think it's very bronze age. Its dark, for certain, but not the kind of the terrible, horribly dark thing that would have happened in the Iron Age. Probably right on the edge there, but not over the edge tone-wise.

Major change is being made to how Customization Options work:

Pretty much all Customization Options will be decoupled from their Archetype, and instead be available to anyone. The Archetype now determines your starting stats and initial powers, but it's going to be much more flexible. The only ones that aren't getting fully decoupled are ones that modify a particular power, so "Multiple Animals" for Animal Powered and some Speedster Powers and some mage spells and things like that are remaining unique customization options for that class. Not all classes will have unique customization options, only when needed.

I figure this will give players much more freedom in how they design and play their characters.

I'm not going to have the complete "starting" rules done before work today unless I get moving much faster (as in, increase my typing speed beyond what I've ever been capable of in the past), but I'm making a major dent in them so far. I'll be posting most Archetype's stats besides Animal Powered and Mage before I go to work, as those two are just a bit more complicated than most. The plan is to have everything needed for character creation done by tomorrow.

Oh, and I added the Base Creation rules.

EDIT: To give a better idea of what this will look like, I've added the Archetype base stats I have finished as of this instant. If a customization option you wanted is missing, don't panic! It'll be added to the General Customization Options list soon.

Is martial artist still forthcoming as an archetype?

Yes it will. I was stuck on it because of the unique customization options, and sine not all archetypes have those anymore, it'll be up with the Android, Mage, and Animal Powered tomorrow.

QuoteResearch AI: The Research AI is an advanced artifical intelligence that assists with research tasks. When used by anyone with a research skill, the AI provides a +2 bonus to any research checks. Even without someone actively working with it, it can make checks on its own with a +3, though the AI takes a bit longer to sort though what is important and not on its own, taking two full weeks to complete research tasks solo. 500 Wealth.

Laboratory: You have a Lab capable of handling scientific, forensic or mystic pursuits (choose one). When using your Lab, you can do research much faster, allowing you to do research on the same turn you act, although you still will not get the results of that research until the next week (So if you're researching Baron Death, you can take a week to research him AND make a media apperance. You could also attack him that week, but you wouldn't gain the benefits of the research against him). A Lab costs 500 Wealth. This upgrade can be taken multiple team. Each time, choose a different focus for it.

I look at the above two options and, depending on how close the rolls fall (I think you're using a d20, so I would think they do not usually fall close) it seems that the optimal choice is always going to be the lab. If you fail because you have too low a research skill and you chose the lab, you can just try again next week unless the required research skill is far above what you have (and if you have the research lab it only grants you an extra 2 'reach'-the spread needs to be larger).

I suggest that the research option works as a +4 for applied and a +8 for the computer, or a +3 applied and +5 for the computer. Once again, this depends on how close the success rolls are intended to fall (e.g. people will usually need a 10 to succeed could warrant a lower number, like the bonuses you suggest; but if people usually need a 20 to succeed, the higher numbers may be important).

RE: other response-
Thank you.

Quote from: Light Dragon
I look at the above two options and, depending on how close the rolls fall (I think you're using a d20, so I would think they do not usually fall close) it seems that the optimal choice is always going to be the lab. If you fail because you have too low a research skill and you chose the lab, you can just try again next week unless the required research skill is far above what you have (and if you have the research lab it only grants you an extra 2 'reach'-the spread needs to be larger).

I suggest that the research option works as a +4 for applied and a +8 for the computer, or a +3 applied and +5 for the computer. Once again, this depends on how close the success rolls are intended to fall (e.g. people will usually need a 10 to succeed could warrant a lower number, like the bonuses you suggest; but if people usually need a 20 to succeed, the higher numbers may be important).

RE: other response-
Thank you.

The reason for the Research AI's bonuses being lower is the major advantage of being able to do research without the rest of the team there, in addition to the advantage of the bonus when your team is there. What I think I'll do is allow you to pick one particular skill that the research AI provides greater benefits for, to make sure it's a bit more worthwhile.

I've added the Adventuring Detective and Android stats, as well as the full block for the Martial Artist. All the remains are Mage, Animal Powered, and Speedster.

A note on Speedsters. Thus far, no one has expressed any kind of interest in that particular class, so it's on the very bottom of the priority pile. Is there any interest in this Archetype as part of character creation? Or should I put it on a lower priority than the Customization Options.

I admit that I'm very heavily engaging in triage here. I really want to be able to keep my promise to you all (and myself) to get the stats done enough to start character creation by Tuesday. I'm not 100% sure that's going to happen, especially since I'm looking at a rework of the combat system right now (Good news is, it won't impact actual character stats in any meaningful way, so it won't get in the way of character creation). If you have anything in particular you need, please let me know and I'll make that a priority. 

I'm not planning on making a Speedster. I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself!

Quote from: Steerpike
I'm not planning on making a Speedster. I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself!

Thanks! And it's about putting the right amount of pressure on me more than anything else: without some kinds of deadlines, there's no way in hell that I'll get this off the ground, and I'm so close to being done with the massive initial crunch wave I can taste it. :)

Also, dude, the Furies are awesome! Love the team and the characters. Can't wait to see them in action. You mention a lot of NPC and organization in your post, which is greatly appreciated, because it gives me a ton to work with - but before I go hog wild, I did want to ask if there was anything in particular you had in mind (or for that matter, Nemesis) for them that you couldn't quite work into the character posts? Just to make sure I'm getting the feel of them right from the brief information you mentioned.

Glad you like the Furies.

Not too much I didn't include but some additional notes might include:

- Iphigenia's closest real-world analogue is Detroit despite its location in New York State.

- Nemesis tended to employ lethal methods frequently, and to make evil-doers suffer. Nemesis II is resisting this aspect of her mother's mandate; it's one of the things they used to fight about. In comic book terms Nemesis might be thought of as pretty close to the Punisher, whereas Nemesis II is closer to Wolverine - Wolverine does kill in certain situations but he's reluctant to, and certainly doesn't enjoy it.

- The Furies are very, very scrupulous about not hurting innocents. While they're still fairly ruthless when it comes to the guilty, they avoid harming anyone who isn't guilty. This makes hostage situations pretty effective against them.

- They're both patient and implacable. Their big shtick is that they'll hunt someone down no matter what - no matter where they run or how hard they hide they'll eventually have to face the Furies. It might take them years but once someone's on their hit-list, they'll keep pursuing them.

- They're as much in the revenge business as they are in the justice business. They're not really high-minded about what they do. As their name suggests, they're about anger, and helping people who are pissed off and can't do anything about it.

- There are a number of ways of contacting them including various online forums, or leaving messages at certain statues in Iphigenia. They don't prioritize based on the social status of those contacting them. In fact, those in positions of power are probably less likely to get their ear.

- The villains they're most likely go after would include those who prey on marginalized people of various sorts, those in positions of official authority. So, for example, they have pretty much 0 interest in cat-burglars, jewel-thieves, con artists ripping off the wealthy, other vigilantes, or petty criminals, but corrupt politicians, crooked cops, exploitative executives, and others who misuse their power would all make good targets.

QuoteA note on Speedsters. Thus far, no one has expressed any kind of interest in that particular class, so it's on the very bottom of the priority pile. Is there any interest in this Archetype as part of character creation? Or should I put it on a lower priority than the Customization Options.

I'm interested in the Speedsters powers, but I see they're already up :) No need for the actual sheets.

I think I am going to go the vigilantes route with my team--will work on getting the character sheets up.

-Thank you for the Martial Artist update

Steerpike- Sister Siren has a very apt power related to her background! I like how you wove the two together.
I also like how Lady Lamia has a potential vampire-hunter descendant nemesis in her background and the circumstances of her initial encounter with the group.
Seeing the "Raven" as a villain is appropriate, but it also made me laugh as the Raven is an iconic female hero in the M&M setting.

With the exceptions of the Mage, Animal Powered, and Speedster Archetypes, the stuff needed for character creation is pretty much complete!

There are a few powers I know I need to add to that list, which I'll do ASAP since once I have, everyone can just start building characters excepting those three archetypes. They are Regeneration, Snare, Telepathy (for non-psions), Super Speed (for non-speedsters), Super Senses, Super Movement, Invisibility, and (non energy medium based) Teleporation. Once I have that, I feel like I've covered pretty much every "Iconic" power option out there.

Also, the bag of tricks customization option is missing from the Adventuring Detective as I decide if that is going to be a "Generic" option or specific to that Archetype.

Now, Responses:

Quote- Iphigenia's closest real-world analogue is Detroit despite its location in New York State.

Gotcha, that gives me a very clear mental image, thanks! Do you picture it with the same level of "areas of near ghost-town" that real world Detroit has? Because I kinda love that pretty much anything could be hiding in there.

Quote- Nemesis tended to employ lethal methods frequently, and to make evil-doers suffer. Nemesis II is resisting this aspect of her mother's mandate; it's one of the things they used to fight about. In comic book terms Nemesis might be thought of as pretty close to the Punisher, whereas Nemesis II is closer to Wolverine - Wolverine does kill in certain situations but he's reluctant to, and certainly doesn't enjoy it.

Makes perfect sense to me, I'll keep that in mind when I work Nemesis into the Exarchs when I get to backstory/worldbuilding stuff.

Quote- The Furies are very, very scrupulous about not hurting innocents. While they're still fairly ruthless when it comes to the guilty, they avoid harming anyone who isn't guilty. This makes hostage situations pretty effective against them.

Yay! I like this personality quirk I can exploit...I mean use! :P

Quote- They're both patient and implacable. Their big shtick is that they'll hunt someone down no matter what - no matter where they run or how hard they hide they'll eventually have to face the Furies. It might take them years but once someone's on their hit-list, they'll keep pursuing them.

Awesome. Would that include anyone left on Nemesis' hit list that was left over? And how would they prioritize that list?

Quote- There are a number of ways of contacting them including various online forums, or leaving messages at certain statues in Iphigenia. They don't prioritize based on the social status of those contacting them. In fact, those in positions of power are probably less likely to get their ear.

Gotcha. Do they maintain these forums, or just monitor them? And how well known are the statue drops - and how often are they checked?

Quote- The villains they're most likely go after would include those who prey on marginalized people of various sorts, those in positions of official authority. So, for example, they have pretty much 0 interest in cat-burglars, jewel-thieves, con artists ripping off the wealthy, other vigilantes, or petty criminals, but corrupt politicians, crooked cops, exploitative executives, and others who misuse their power would all make good targets.

I'll keep that in mind. Where do they rate marginalized people that prey upon other marginalized people? Things like gangs, pimps, drug dealers, etc? Also, how about mercenaries or assassins that work for their "Most hated" groups?

QuoteI'm interested in the Speedsters powers, but I see they're already up smile No need for the actual sheets.

Cool. The priority for speedster's goes a bit lower. :P

QuoteI think I am going to go the vigilantes route with my team--will work on getting the character sheets up.

I'll admit that I'm kinda sad to not see the Soldier's showing up. :P Still, can't wait to see them in all their glory!

Quote-Thank you for the Martial Artist update

No problem! :)

Quote from: XathanWould that include anyone left on Nemesis' hit list that was left over? And how would they prioritize that list?

I'd say so, though I don't have anything particular in mind. They'd prioritize like most superheroes, probably - how dangerous is the villain, are they likely to hurt more people soon, how easily can they be taken down, etc.

Quote from: XathanI'll keep that in mind. Where do they rate marginalized people that prey upon other marginalized people? Things like gangs, pimps, drug dealers, etc? Also, how about mercenaries or assassins that work for their "Most hated" groups?

Marginalized people preying on other marginalized people don't get a pass of any sort. That said, street level drug dealers might not be considered especally worthy targets; their bosses and suppliers might in some circumstances. Addicts are probably less likely to blame their dealers for their troubles as they are the system that made them turn to drugs in the first place. There are plenty of alcoholics in Iphigenia - people who drink themselves to death, or who become violent when drunk - but the Furies aren't taking out liquor stores. Violent criminals would rank much higher.

Mercenaries and assassins are fair game as collateral damage but would rate lower than those paying them.

EDIT: Fun link  (http://chinamieville.net/post/4406165249/rejected-pitch)that's sort of relevant - China Mieville's rejected pitch for an Iron Man villain hero.

>>I'll admit that I'm kinda sad to not see the Soldier's showing up

If it's any consolation, the two teams have a similar Rogues Gallery (I jammed some of the Soldiers For Christ's villains into Thunder's list). It just seems easier to me to write things up for the vigilante team, but yes, Soldiers for Christ could have some interesting battles-and I think their team would be more effective due to the variety of powers- their full list would probably include the Four Horsemen of the Apocalpyse, Seven Deadly Sins, and some other thematic villains.

[ic=Thunder's Rogue's Gallery]
[ic=White Knight, White Bishop, and the Chessmaster]
Thunder's Hood and The Damned incinerated the hate-mongering White Knight and dispersed his new-klux-klan, but in his death he has become even more iconizicized and his mission sanctified by rural racists and his surviving followers.

Thunder also did not know that he was just a Lieutenant under White Bishop, the otherwise respectable tobacco tycoon Don Bishop, who has vast resources at his command which he puts toward grandiose schemes, like Project Rook and constructing the perfect battlesuit for Queen Tobacco, the new female icon of the smoking industry, a svelte, smoking, fragrant and sexy product. Still, he himself is but a pawn of The Chessmaster, a crazed genius psion who dwells in a bunker deep beneath the Rockies and who is attempting to bring about Armageddon by manipulating events to fulfill the prophecy of Revelation so he cna harness Satan's power against alien invasion and get humanity to spread out across space. Some Watchmen vibe here.
[/ic]

[note]The Chessmaster, Judas, Fallen Angel, and The Golem are originally from Soldiers for Chirst's Rogues Gallery[/note]

[ic=The Golem and The Master]
Thunder never saw The Master, but they have destroyed two versions of the Clay Golem, both of which were found with instructions written in Aramaic and with Kaballic designs on a clay tablet inserted into their mouths. The second time the Golem was destroyed, it seemed to have been rebuilt stronger the second time. The Golem has destroyed buildings and roads in very specific patters, leaking corrosive fluid in its wake as it moves. The second Golem picked up where the first was destroyed.

After the first Golem was defeated, a letter was sent to all the major papers, warning "DO NOT REBUILD."

Ultimately, the Master is a pawn of the Chessmaster. He himself is trying to summon Yahweh to rescue the chosen people from a sinful world. It just so happens that Atlanta is one of three cities he needs to mark to rend the earth and attract YHWH's attention, the others being Jerusalem and Kuala Lumpur. That said, he could craft the signs slightly outside the cities, but the drawings gain power due to the lives present in the ambient area, so location and lifepower is both needed to amplify the magical power and increase the yield of his harvest.
[/ic]

[ic=Judas]
A gang enforcer. A Brute. Arrested by Thunder and not killed because police appeared before Justice or the Damned could decapitate him. Apparently, 20 bullets and a rope around his neck were not enough to put him down. Judas used to be an attorney before he was disbarred for taking bribes. He gained his superpower in much the same way that Abraxas gained his, through the work of Abraxas' scientist at the CDC. Now in jail, he uses his intellect to manipulate the other prisoners and the guards and he is forming his own power structure that can strike both inside and outside of jail.
[/ic]

[ic=Fallen Angel]
The androgynous winged foe's modus operandi is to swoop on an unsuspecting target (male or female), snatch it into the air, couple with it, then drop it onto spikes in the ground, like a church spire or a sharp fence.

The Damned broke its neck and it crashed into a lake. It has not been seen since, but the body was never recovered.
[/ic]

[ic=The Scientist]
The man who supplied Abraxas with his serum of strength and who the group only knows as "The Scientist", because Abraxas never got his name. He went to work at the CDC, but now he's working for private industry at FORGE, insidiously creating more serum. His experiments have killed all their recipients except for Abraxas and Judas. His employers may want to capture Abraxas to divine why the serum has not killed him. Judas, similarly, may find an early release from prison due to the same.
[/ic]

[ic=Werewolf]
A copkiller in the Projects. He has been killing innocent and not so innocent cops. Thunder's Justice and The Damned beat him up during a multiple-hour-long brawl where the sides exchanged philosophy and blows, but he managed to throw them off and escape, but not before promising to do more research on his future quarries- but always promising to deal death when justified. He has a long list of crimes for which he should answer.

Justice is conflicted about him, but he wants to put him behind bars. Abraxas doesn't much care what happens to him. Hood and The Damned find themselves supporting Werewolf--they acknowledge he made mistakes but consider that they could very well be in the same position if they off the wrong person. Hood especially wants to show him mercy[/ic]

[note]Poison Ivy, The Cleaner and Werewolf are at the nexus of the Iron Age question, what is a hero? And their actions demonstrate why the legal system is probably preferable to vigilante justice- they are an insight into the darkness of the souls of Thunder's members.[/note]

[ic=The Cleaner]
A Janitor "adventuring detective" who also can disintegrate people and things with his laser-eyes that mutated due to chemical exposure suffered over many years. He wears a mask to cover the chemical-damaged skin and kills the "dirt" of society, not discriminating between murdering prostitutes, johns, violent criminals, drug users, drug dealers. He recently got the idea that it would be fine to disintegrate any and all patrons of a number of seedy bars... this is what finally got him on the radar of Thunder as a loose cannon rather than as a vigilante who could be worked with. Justice and The Damned see a kindred spirit in him, but he seems to be getting out of hand by building his own moral code of who should live and who should die. Hood has always been suspicious of him since as she asserts- prostitution is not a crime and even if it is, the sex workers are at the most risk and most likely to be victimized-- similarly, drug users can quit if given the right resources. She finds his actions unforgivable. Hood finds it absurd that Abraxas agrees with her, but he does so because he sees himself at risk from The Cleaner's war on drugs. Again, a reference is Watchmen. And Boondock Saints with lasers.
[/ic]

[ic=Poison Ivy]
A former prostitute who has been poisoning enemies with a prick of her finger. She can alter her appearance and immobilize with a stare. Her targets are bad Johns and abusive pimps, but she also kills political enemies. She has killed a number of extreme right wing politicians, which is not a huge priority of Thunder's to address, but she also killed lawyers who prosecute prostitutes, many of whom were merely fulfilling their court appointed duties. This resulted in deaths of several of Thunders' mentors' friends. The group has come to a consensus that she, like The Cleaner and Werewolf, must be locked up.
[/ic]

[ic=Pied Piper, FORGE, and Loki]
Pied Piper Infamous for luring children by song and baking them into pies placed randomly in stores.

The Flute and FORGE Thunder killed him but the flute he bore went into the river and the flute is what does the evil. The flute was manufactured by Chessmaster's minions at the FORGE, an independent high-tech research facility which was testing mind control in a flute. It was not, however, Chessmaster's intent that the flute be used to slay children. That, instead, was Loki's fault.

Loki A mad Norwegian who wants to use heroes to destroy technology to increase self sufficiency in preparation for Fimbulvinter before Ragnorak, the end of the world. He has previously knocked out the US energy grid and EMPed NYC. He is infamously slippery to catch and sometimes works with The Druid. He hexed the flute to drive a user mad so it could not be used to its full potential. Loki's intent was not to kill. Loki never intends to kill, just to strengthen and temper in the flames of struggle--his intent and the consequences of his actions rarely align.
[/ic]



[/ic]

Sorry for the couple days of silence, birthday was a thing that happened and is finally now over thankfully. (rough couple of days massively slowed down my work pace.)

Added those last few customization options for all existing archetypes. Feel free to start stating characters now if you haven't been already. If there's anything you feel is missing, please let me know.

Mage and Animal-Powered will be up tonight, I promise. I've tried several different iterations of both and haven't quite found one I liked for either of them. Speedster will probably be easy to bang out, but I want to get those other two up first because I know people are waiting on them.

Happy birthday!

Is it intentional that Android and every class below it seem to have far lower Parry and Dodge values than the classes above them? It's almost like you were in the process of tweaking some numbers and didn't finish. :)
(On that note, how are the tweaks to the combat system going? Can I help at all?)

Mage and Animal Powered finally added. Unless you wanted to make a speedster, everything you should need for character creation is there.

Obviously I'm not going to be ready to start the game by the originally planned March 16th, so I'm pushing back the start date a bit. Right now i'm looking at March 23rd, just to give me time to finish some worldbuilding stuff and tweaking the combat system and get a bit of a breather before diving into the first turn.

I know there's a lot of stuff I haven't responded to yet, both in PMs and here. Light Dragon and Hippo, the stuff you've posted so far looks great, keep it coming. :) Gonna catch up with the responses to stuff over the weekend.

Last bit of major crunch to do, before I look at the combat overhaul, is to write up some of the other things that reputation can be used to purchase, and all the things that aren't base related that wealth can be used to purchase. Then more time on worldbuilding! Wooo!

Quote from: sparkletwist
Happy birthday!

Thanks!

QuoteIs it intentional that Android and every class below it seem to have far lower Parry and Dodge values than the classes above them? It's almost like you were in the process of tweaking some numbers and didn't finish. :)

Good catch, that is now fixed. All have the stats they will have under the current rules iteration.

Quote
(On that note, how are the tweaks to the combat system going? Can I help at all?)

Slowly, though I've been fiddling with a few variants. Once I get my thoughts better organized, I will definitely want your help to bounce them off you...and I admit, right now resisting the urge to say "Keep the current system, because that means I'm so much closer to being done writing crunch, which would be awesome."

Question,

I was modifying the flight skill for Hood- is that okay, and could you provide any guidance. I went with this instead of limit break- which is thematically appropriate, but this seemed more useful since 2 of the characters are a bit lower power.

Flight: You can fly. Assuming you have clearance above your head high enough to put you out of reach, you are immune to melee attacks from non-fliers unless they ready an action for you to enter melee range.
There is an issue with her flight... imagine a jet with afterburners- she blows flame as fuel to lift off and fly- so she cannot take off just anywhere-she would need nothing flammable to be around if she wishes to risk setting any buildings aflame.

--
Also, I saw Team Mascot mentioned but not fleshed out? I assume that is forthcoming?
--
Also, for super soldier, can I swap a throw weapon attack for a ranged weapon attack at the same levels, like the signature weapon archetype has? It seems to make sense that the super soldier will have a gun in Justice's case.
--
Also, manipulate and influence are the same-correct?

I think the Adventuring Detective combat stats must be off? Melee 18 and Ranged 16 seem too high for an archetype definitely not combat-geared...

Quote from: Light Dragon
Question,

I was modifying the flight skill for Hood- is that okay, and could you provide any guidance. I went with this instead of limit break- which is thematically appropriate, but this seemed more useful since 2 of the characters are a bit lower power.

Flight: You can fly. Assuming you have clearance above your head high enough to put you out of reach, you are immune to melee attacks from non-fliers unless they ready an action for you to enter melee range.
There is an issue with her flight... imagine a jet with afterburners- she blows flame as fuel to lift off and fly- so she cannot take off just anywhere-she would need nothing flammable to be around if she wishes to risk setting any buildings aflame.

That kinda change is fine, because it is a minor complication that will rarely come up. (Jet powered heroes almost never have that being an issue, so it would really just be flavor text - it's not common she'll be in a situation where taking off from something that flammable will be an issue)

--

QuoteAlso, I saw Team Mascot mentioned but not fleshed out? I assume that is forthcoming?

I knew that something slipped my mind. Yes, that is forthcoming. :)
--

QuoteAlso, for super soldier, can I swap a throw weapon attack for a ranged weapon attack at the same levels, like the signature weapon archetype has? It seems to make sense that the super soldier will have a gun in Justice's case.

I don't see a problem here.
--

QuoteAlso, manipulate and influence are the same-correct?

Should be, but just to check, what is the context? I may have herped and used influence when I meant reputation.

Quote from: Steerpike
I think the Adventuring Detective combat stats must be off? Melee 18 and Ranged 16 seem too high for an archetype definitely not combat-geared...

Oh, wow, those are way off. I think I accidentally added 10 to those as opposed to defenses, but that still seems high: lemme check my notes when home and confirm.

>>Should be, but just to check, what is the context? I may have herped and used influence when I meant reputation.

The stat lists for a number of the archetypes give Manipulate stats, not Influence stats.

On the other issues; thank you.

Quote from: Light Dragon
>>Should be, but just to check, what is the context? I may have herped and used influence when I meant reputation.

The stat lists for a number of the archetypes give Manipulate stats, not Influence stats.

On the other issues; thank you.

Oh, derp. That's right, I decided manipulate as a name gave the wrong impression of what the skill does but forgot to change it. Will fix when home.

I moved skill points around for some of the characters to modify their stats to more fit their concepts... was that okay?

Quote from: Light Dragon
I moved skill points around for some of the characters to modify their stats to more fit their concepts... was that okay?

Go ahead and send me the chances you made, I'll look it over.

Do keep in mind that you have 8 free skill points to spend on whatever, however you want. :)

Quote from: XathanDo keep in mind that you have 8 free skill points to spend on whatever, however you want.

Is this noted anywhere? I didn't see it, and trying to "Reverse Engineer" Liberty Bell from the Paragon archetype doesn't lead to this conclusion.

Based on the current wealth cost of things, the "Wealthy" option seems basically worthless; the reputation ones don't seem all that much better with reputation costs also pretty high. My suggestion would be that given that wealth and reputation are expendable resources but most other customization options grant persistent character boosts, it would be better for them to provide an increase in the team's ability to gain reputation and wealth, rather than a one-time bonus.

The changes are on the sheets in the thread. e.g. I moved 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 from Skill A to Skill B.

Sparkletwist- the 8 free skill points is noted on the Character Creation thread checklist at the top.

Enjoy my incredibly political team summary.

A brilliant post-2008 revision of the "Soviet Villain Squad" (i.e. Red Trinity, Red Shadows, Supreme Soviets, etc), Superbright.

Is Night Witch going to be an actual WWII Night Witch?

EDIT: Also maybe the Harpy should have encountered at least one of the Internationales? Maybe in prison? Maybe they fought?

Superbright--> I'm interested in their age ranges- I get this amusing vision of solely 60-70 year old geriatric Soviet heroes spouting inspirational quotations while collectively destroying their enemies like Discworld's Cohen the Barbarian and his Silver Horde, but I am sure there are some youngsters in the group.

Hippopotamus--> I like how you went with the 2 inactive members/larger membership list for your organization- yours in particular seems very well suited for that option of Xathan's!

Xathan--> Could the character thread please link to the other two major threads in its first post?

I've posted all the stats for my heroes. I think everything is correct. I reduced the Adventuring Detective Melee/Range stats by 10, as per your speculation Xathan, though they maybe still seem high? As it stands a Brute and an Adventuring Detective have the same Melee bonus, although admittedly they do massively more damage.

[ooc=Patch 0.0.2 Update]
Heroes

Adventuring Detective and Android both had incorrect stat blocks. The Attack bonuses for both have been reduced by 10, and the Defensce scores for both have been increased by 10. This brings them in line with other heroes.

Paragon melee skills were improved to 7. In playtest, regardless of which combat system I was trying, the Paragon was vastly under preforming for their intended power.

Customization Options

Wealthy now reads: Wealthy: your character comes from a privileged background. You gain 10% additional wealth per turn

Respected is now: Respected: This hero brings respect to the team as a whole. Increase team reputation by 10. When gaining reputation, you gain 10% extra reputation.

Highly Charismatic is now: Highly Charismatic: You gain +4 to Media, and your team's starting reputation is increased by 5.  When gaining reputation, you gain 5% extra reputation.

Complications

Reformed Villain has been slightly changed: Reformed Villain: Due to a past on the wrong side of the law, people have difficulty trusting you. Your team starts with 10 less reputation, and you take a -4 penalty to influence checks to convince people to trust you. (Note that if you are a reformed villain and that is not publicly known, this does not apply)

General:

Character Creation rules have been added to the main rules thread. Sample character Liberty Bell's stat block has been updated to reflect proper character creation.

All threads now properly link to each other.[/ooc]

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: XathanDo keep in mind that you have 8 free skill points to spend on whatever, however you want.

Is this noted anywhere? I didn't see it, and trying to "Reverse Engineer" Liberty Bell from the Paragon archetype doesn't lead to this conclusion.

Light Dragon had this correct, it's in the character creation thread. I coulda sworn I had moved it over to the Rules thread, an error I will be fixing. :)

QuoteBased on the current wealth cost of things, the "Wealthy" option seems basically worthless; the reputation ones don't seem all that much better with reputation costs also pretty high. My suggestion would be that given that wealth and reputation are expendable resources but most other customization options grant persistent character boosts, it would be better for them to provide an increase in the team's ability to gain reputation and wealth, rather than a one-time bonus.

You're absolutely right about this, and I'll be making those changes shortly. I'll also be including new purchasable customization options "Sell Out" and "Cash In," letting you trade reputation for wealth or visa versa, though it will be at a loss - it's intended to be there as a way to get a quick boost if you're just on the edge of that purchase that you want

Quote from: Light Cube
The changes are on the sheets in the thread. e.g. I moved 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 from Skill A to Skill B.

Alright, I'll look them over and get back to you on that ASAP.

Quote from: Superbright
Enjoy my incredibly political team summary.

Oh, Superbright, I totally am. I love the ultra-communist team as a heroic team, and making villains for them is so much fun so far. :) Can't wait to see the individual members!

Really, want to take a moment to tell everyone I'm really loving the teams and characters you all are coming up with so far. :)

Quote from: Steerpike
Also maybe the Harpy should have encountered at least one of the Internationales? Maybe in prison? Maybe they fought?

Just want to say if you guys decide to go that route, it'd be totally cool with me. I'd love for a bit of pre-game crossover to have happened.

Quote from: Light Cube
Hippopotamus--> I like how you went with the 2 inactive members/larger membership list for your organization- yours in particular seems very well suited for that option of Xathan's!

I'm not surprised, it was Hippo's idea, I just got the details right. It does fit that particular team quite well. :)

QuoteXathan--> Could the character thread please link to the other two major threads in its first post?

Will get that fixed, good catch.

QuoteI've posted all the stats for my heroes. I think everything is correct. I reduced the Adventuring Detective Melee/Range stats by 10, as per your speculation Xathan, though they maybe still seem high? As it stands a Brute and an Adventuring Detective have the same Melee bonus, although admittedly they do massively more damage.

That was the correct change yes. It's true the Adventuring Detective melee is a bit high, currently on par with the Costumed Adventurer, which is something I went back and forth on, but most of the time Adventuring Detectives in comics are shown at being pretty fair matches for their more flamboyantly dressed counterparts, so I'm gonna keep it there.

Oh, if anyone's interested, I posted in the Character Creation thread (in a little spoiler block at the bottom) the Exarchs. I'd suggest reading over it, there's some worldbuilding details in there that might be good to know, but I kept it small because this isn't their story, its yours. I'll devote more time (and space) to villains, because that's more important to what's actually going on.

Also, wanted to thank everyone for the help so far. :) Did want to check - does anyone have any outstanding questions to me that have not yet been answered?

More world-building is coming.

Because I like doing this, here's my current To-Do list:

-Go though the thread a change all instances of Manipulate to Influence. Alternative: Change all instances of Influence to Manipulate, since you use Manipulate far more often.

-Write up the various combat systems you're working on so you can show the players as opposed to keeping it all in your head.

-Add the Team Mascot option

-Finish the Worldbuilding stuff, including posting a whole bunch of villains.

-Write up other things Wealth and Resources can be spent on. (this is not turn 1 critical)

-Reorganize the rules thread into something meant to be read by a sane mind.

I'm so glad people are responding well to them. It really validates all of my nail-biting and neurotic rewrites. I'm actually torn as to how old to make the remaining founding members. Vanguard and Night Witch will definitely at least have been born during the Great Patriotic War (superhero aging being a weird and unknowable thing), and the Red Spectre's age will be a big part of her mystique: the earliest photographs of her date back to the Cuban Revolution, but I'm considering going full-throttle and have her be old enough to have fought in the October Revolution.

I'm so down for Harpy having clashed with Internationale during her mafiya days, probably when they were punching one of her bosses to pieces.

Finally, I'm incredibly conflicted about what to make the last two characters, since I want to go for the most diverse thematic spread possible. It's probably going to be a Chinese cyborg battlesuit character who went rogue after her involvement in the June Fourth Incident and a pistol-wielding demoness who was summoned and bound by Rasputin, liberated by the Bolsheviks, converted to Communism, and now totally rejects the existence of the supernatural as being incompatible with the spirit of Marxism-Leninism, but other possible future members include a wily old Viet Cong who got his powers through CIA experimentation on prisoners of war, a brutal British squaddist, a young PKK guerrilla, or an African-American social activist and telekine.

On the subject of the demoness, Xathan, if I go that route, would it be at all possible to give her a unique complication in the vein of Rare Weakness? I was thinking that she'd be vulnerable to being temporarily banished and, while not permanently destroyed, taken out of action for a couple of weeks while she tries to crawl her way back out of a Hell she denies the existence of.

The Exarchs look great! Awesome to see Nemesis there as a weird sort of Punisher/Batman hybrid. Hyper Radiant Power Soldier made me smile. Drifter is cool - a nice allusion to Nomad, if I'm not mistaken. I have only one nitpick here: the preferred term, I believe, is "transgender," even when the word "transgendered" seems grammatically appropriate. "Transgendered" used to be a very standard term but it seems to have fallen out of the vernacular.

I reached Warmech and was like WHAT there's a Fourth Reich now? Did Warmech eventually topple that regime or is it still around?

Two more tiny nitpicks, of a different nature: a couple of the general customization options still refer to specific Archetypes. Also, I'm fairly certain the plural of "Gear" is "Gear," not "Gears" - more accurately "gear" is a singular collective noun that can refer to a collection of items. These are ridiculously teensy edits but I noticed them so I thought I should point em out.

Quote from: Superbright
I'm so glad people are responding well to them. It really validates all of my nail-biting and neurotic rewrites. I'm actually torn as to how old to make the remaining founding members. Vanguard and Night Witch will definitely at least have been born during the Great Patriotic War (superhero aging being a weird and unknowable thing), and the Red Spectre's age will be a big part of her mystique: the earliest photographs of her date back to the Cuban Revolution, but I'm considering going full-throttle and have her be old enough to have fought in the October Revolution.

I love this idea. BTW, I originally had a customization option for long-lived or slow aging...then realized it would never be relevant in game, so kept it out. If you want them to still be younger physically even though they are much older chronologically, feel free to do so.

QuoteFinally, I'm incredibly conflicted about what to make the last two characters, since I want to go for the most diverse thematic spread possible. It's probably going to be a Chinese cyborg battlesuit character who went rogue after her involvement in the June Fourth Incident and a pistol-wielding demoness who was summoned and bound by Rasputin, liberated by the Bolsheviks, converted to Communism, and now totally rejects the existence of the supernatural as being incompatible with the spirit of Marxism-Leninism, but other possible future members include a wily old Viet Cong who got his powers through CIA experimentation on prisoners of war, a brutal British squaddist, a young PKK guerrilla, or an African-American social activist and telekine.

I love the Demoness who denies the supernatural so much it's not even funny. The others all sound equally strong, so I can't be much help there, but the first one I really want to see.

QuoteOn the subject of the demoness, Xathan, if I go that route, would it be at all possible to give her a unique complication in the vein of Rare Weakness? I was thinking that she'd be vulnerable to being temporarily banished and, while not permanently destroyed, taken out of action for a couple of weeks while she tries to crawl her way back out of a Hell she denies the existence of.

That sounds good on the surface, yes. Since you're going the Loose Confederation route (I assume) it wouldn't be completely crippling for you to have that weakness. It would also give me a chance to introduce something once that happens that will be plot relevant later, so yes. Do you have particular circumstances on who can banish her, or is it just Mages...who have powers that she doesn't believe are magic?

Quote from: Steerpike
The Exarchs look great! Awesome to see Nemesis there as a weird sort of Punisher/Batman hybrid. Hyper Radiant Power Soldier made me smile. Drifter is cool - a nice allusion to Nomad, if I'm not mistaken. I have only one nitpick here: the preferred term, I believe, is "transgender," even when the word "transgendered" seems grammatically appropriate. "Transgendered" used to be a very standard term but it seems to have fallen out of the vernacular.

Thanks a ton! Those are the two I'm most pleased with as well. And yes, Drifter is an allusion to Captain America's Nomad days. I wanted to have Captain America type that completely fell out with his country, and I figured America's perpetual issues with LGBT people would be an appropriate one. Plus, it always bugs me that of all groups, transgender individuals are probably the least represented in comics.

You are, of course, correct, and another player pointed this out via PM as well. Good catch both of you.

QuoteI reached Warmech and was like WHAT there's a Fourth Reich now? Did Warmech eventually topple that regime or is it still around?

the Fourth Reich is still a going thing, although much smaller. This will be made clear when I get to the full world-building post and Lady Dusk's villain profile, but it's basically a smallish, Nazi Latveria in South America.

QuoteTwo more tiny nitpicks, of a different nature: a couple of the general customization options still refer to specific Archetypes. Also, I'm fairly certain the plural of "Gear" is "Gear," not "Gears" - more accurately "gear" is a singular collective noun that can refer to a collection of items. These are ridiculously teensy edits but I noticed them so I thought I should point em out.

Thanks, I'll go through and fix those! Nitpicks are fine.

A bit about how I write for Who Will Save Us Now? just because I'm sure it's riddled with errors like this: most of my days are fairly busy, so I typically am running errands and doing other things around the home while making notes in a notebook for things to add. At work, I then type them all up and add things in a notepad document at work, since I can shrink that down enough to not block my other tools even if I accidentally click it when a call comes in. I then email it to myself, run it through a spellcheck, and post it. Typically, by that point, it's 2-3am and I have no focus to edit, so even when I skim over it I'm going to miss things. So please do point out those little errors, otherwise I'll never catch them. (When the game starts, I'll not be posting the "Start of Turn" posts until the next day, when I have a chance to actually edit them - which should reduce the number of errors!)

Quote from: XathanThat sounds good on the surface, yes. Since you're going the Loose Confederation route (I assume) it wouldn't be completely crippling for you to have that weakness. It would also give me a chance to introduce something once that happens that will be plot relevant later, so yes. Do you have particular circumstances on who can banish her, or is it just Mages...who have powers that she doesn't believe are magic?

If it's all Mages, then I think it should probably involve a decently-long and time-consuming ritual. What would also work is that she has to make a check when someone rebukes her with an Orthodox icon of Saint Basil the Great in order to avoid being hurled back into Perdition.

I also really love the lineup you have going with the Exarchs. It's almost a shame that Internationale never got along with them. And I'm excited to hear more about the Fourth Reich; I was really hoping you'd do something like the Boys from Brazil and I am not disappointed.

Quote from: Superbright
If it's all Mages, then I think it should probably involve a decently-long and time-consuming ritual. What would also work is that she has to make a check when someone rebukes her with an Orthodox icon of Saint Basil the Great in order to avoid being hurled back into Perdition.

I think the way it will work is Mages can banish her as a result of "Capturing" her, but since that really won't be any different than being captured by any other character - it'll just take her out of commission for a week, same as any other capture that doesn't require you to rescue the captured hero. The actual weakness will be the Orthodox icon of Saint Basil the Great, which I love for being so oddly specific. DC 16 will to resist being banished for each round of exposure - slightly lower DC than the damage caused by Weakness because it's a "Save or Lose" type scenario.

QuoteI also really love the lineup you have going with the Exarchs. It's almost a shame that Internationale never got along with them. And I'm excited to hear more about the Fourth Reich; I was really hoping you'd do something like the Boys from Brazil and I am not disappointed.

Thanks! And yeah, that is kind of a shame. It possible they had prior amicable interactions with Crimson Arrow, who wasn't necessarily pro-democracy but more anti-the-current-Chinese-government.

And I appreciate it. I'll try to get full worldbuilding done tonight at work, or at least make a decent dent in it and post what I have. :)

I like the Exarch writeups, and I'm all for more LGBT inclusiveness, but I have to scoff a little bit at Captain Patriot/Drifter. I don't really find any sort of widespread public backlash to be very realistic. This is comic book gonzo-land, after all, so we're talking about a public that has already had to deal with and come to accept mutants, cryptids, sentient androids, space aliens, walking undead, communist super soldiers, mages, telepaths, demons, and who knows what else. There are probably shapeshifters that can change from male to female and back again whenever they feel like it, and alien species with zero or three genders, and all sorts of other weirdness, so I just don't see people in this world, even 'murricans, really caring that much after being exposed to all that. Even the far right religious zealots are probably far more concerned with the fact there are actual demons running around than with sexual morality.

Anyway, crunch-wise, I like the changes. Am I correct in assuming that "Reputation" is really just a currency, then, as opposed to any sort of stat or used to determine anything else? For example, if you have 100 reputation and spend it all, it's not that you are inexplicably abruptly completely despised when last week everyone loved you.

Quote from: sparkletwist
I like the Exarch writeups, and I'm all for more LGBT inclusiveness, but I have to scoff a little bit at Captain Patriot/Drifter. I don't really find any sort of widespread public backlash to be very realistic. This is comic book gonzo-land, after all, so we're talking about a public that has already had to deal with and come to accept mutants, cryptids, sentient androids, space aliens, walking undead, communist super soldiers, mages, telepaths, demons, and who knows what else. There are probably shapeshifters that can change from male to female and back again whenever they feel like it, and alien species with zero or three genders, and all sorts of other weirdness, so I just don't see people in this world, even 'murricans, really caring that much after being exposed to all that. Even the far right religious zealots are probably far more concerned with the fact there are actual demons running around than with sexual morality.

I see your point here, but this might be a case of to each their own. Part of the tone I'm going for is engaging in the general tone of the Bronze Age of comics, in which social issues did start mattering as part of the general response to things in the world. It makes about as much sense as the X-Men being persecuted for being powered due to mutants while the Fantastic Four were loved even though this reaction depends on the general public having a more detailed knowledge of genetics than they have ever had, or Falcon getting targeted by racists, or the Serpent Society targeting immigrants for making America "impure" as recently as the early 2000's in the comics. Part of it is the truism that angry idiots tend to be louder than most other groups, and so the backlash felt (to Drifter) much, much larger than it actually was, and that was aided by the fact that even in a world where they were exposed to such things, many people would still likely be at the least uncomfortable with transgender individuals and therefore keep their mouths shut, making the angry voices seem even louder in the silence. Part of it is also imagining (and mocking) the backlash that would happen in the real world if Marvel suddenly announced that Steve Rodgers was transgender - we've seen how well people react to those kind of changes already. Part of it is that, under Don't Ask Don't Tell, even without any kind of public backlash, Captain Patriot would have at least had to lose the first word in that name after being stripped of military rank. Another part is that Aliens, Demons, etc - all the things you mentioned - were known about but mostly in the background and not common knowledge until the early 2000's, so older people would have still had the same prejudices they had before.

QuoteAnyway, crunch-wise, I like the changes. Am I correct in assuming that "Reputation" is really just a currency, then, as opposed to any sort of stat or used to determine anything else? For example, if you have 100 reputation and spend it all, it's not that you are inexplicably abruptly completely despised when last week everyone loved you.

Thanks! And yes, you are correct. Things purchased with reputation are meant to be "favors" you can cash in on, sort of - in essence, you still have the goodwill, but you spend the political capital. Also, after large reputation purchases, since your team's image changes, your wealth gain decreases as people are a bit more leery of throwing money your way until they see how those changes play out.

I disagree, sparkletwist. In lots of comic universes, mutants and superheroes face extreme prejudice by dint of their powers and difference. You know, like this sort of thing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxLrH5ydSMM). They're frequently a source of huge public anxiety, and more than one superhero has been called a freak or a deviant. Supheroes threaten the boundaries of what counts as human, and not everyone is OK with that. Even non-powered heroes like Batman or Iron Man often have a pretty precarious relationship with public opinion. Just because strange things are abroad doesn't mean that everyone magically becomes accepting, and indeed, there's a long tradition of using superheroes to talk about and explore the politics of identity and social justice.

Considering that Captain Patriot isn't just a superhero but a superhero that's specifically a paragon of American values (America's Favorite Son), it's not all that shocking to think that her transition would cause public consternation, I think.

EDIT: ninja'd by Xathan.

That's essentially my point. Superheroes face prejudice because they are by normal human standards extremely weird, so in the face of all that weirdness suddenly mundane gender identity issues start to seem pretty small potatoes by comparison. People don't magically become more accepting, but they do choose their battles and probably find more common ground because they more or less have to. That said, I do agree that there's a long tradition of using superheroes to talk about this stuff-- but a lot of times it feels kind of silly. Dr. Genius being able to cure every disease except his son Timmy's cancer so we can have a very special episode where we talk about that issue may be socially relevant, but it's narratively dumb. I feel like this is in the same realm, although I'll shut up and go along with it if we're just doing a bit of handwaving to get the relevant social issue in there as a nod to the Bronze Age, which seemed to be what Xathan was saying.

I see what you mean about superhero-prejudice sort of dwarfing mundane prejudice, although I have to say that the human capacity for bigotry is pretty vast. Even if there are lots of aliens and weirdos on the news I don't think that centuries of heterornormativity, racism, and patriarchy would be easily erased. It's possible that some pre-existing forms of prejudice might even be exacerbated. I'm imagining Captain Patriot as a symbol of bold, all-American masculinity, hero-worshipped by millions of young boys who rush out to buy Captain Patriot action figures and costumes. When suddenly that image gets taken away, I don't think that a degree of public backlash is that far-fetched, at least initially.

I do think there are a lot of instances where social issues in comics are discussed with considerable sophistication (consider the way, for example, in which Kate Kane's double life is subtly reflected in the clashing art styles between her normal life and her life as a costumed hero), but I take your point that when handled badly it can become very heavy-handed, or even outright ugly (...like the way Kate Kane was denied a lesbian wedding because "heroes shouldn't have happy personal lives" - as if marriage was a guarantee of a happy personal life).

Back to crunch, I'm looking at the base options, and have some questions. I noticed you get two of them at creation, but they don't seem to take costs into account, and their wealth costs range from 300 to 1000, which is a pretty dramatic difference. Is there more to it, or is that how you intend it to work? I think options priced differently at character creation than in play is a bad idea, because it adds all sorts of weird optimization tactics to the game. I'm also not sure what a Mentor is actually good for. You can get one at character generation and they're quite costly at 300 reputation-- but you can get a new team member for only 200 and a new team member seems like it offers a lot more than a Mentor, and the only downside is you can't buy one at character generation. For that matter... can you? Is there any reason why, instead of buying a base option, you can't just gain an additional full-fledged team member?

Also, Happy Belated Birthday Xathan; commiserations that it was disappointing. Actually it does bring up a side issue- how is your sister doing? I recall It was interesting to hear your design/codification process. Contrary to your stated concerns, I do not think there are overly many errors and your sentences are coherently assembled- no need for outsized self-flagellation.  :suprised:

Steerpike or Xathan: Why does Harpy have 8 Melee as a Brute? Am I missing out on an optimization option? As a corollary- should brutes really have less melee skill than an adventuring detective? I suppose it is the "attacks" that are the difference makers? (asking for understanding).

Superbright- if you go the Chinese option for your other character, and you want to intertwine some more history, you could maybe make the Cyborg primarily designed by this notable personage, founder of China's space program and co-Founder of America's (before America deported him):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

Quote from: sparkletwist
Back to crunch, I'm looking at the base options, and have some questions. I noticed you get two of them at creation, but they don't seem to take costs into account, and their wealth costs range from 300 to 1000, which is a pretty dramatic difference. Is there more to it, or is that how you intend it to work? I think options priced differently at character creation than in play is a bad idea, because it adds all sorts of weird optimization tactics to the game. I'm also not sure what a Mentor is actually good for. You can get one at character generation and they're quite costly at 300 reputation-- but you can get a new team member for only 200 and a new team member seems like it offers a lot more than a Mentor, and the only downside is you can't buy one at character generation. For that matter... can you? Is there any reason why, instead of buying a base option, you can't just gain an additional full-fledged team member?

That's a really good point. I'm going to have to check back prices and base creation, there may be some necessary changes coming down the line in that regard. Mentor may also get an overhaul here soon, because you're right, it's a bit worthless at current price.

And I need to update the rule regarding a full fleged team member from start - no, you cannot, because otherwise the option becomes so good there's no reason to do anything else.

Quote from: Light Cube
Also, Happy Belated Birthday Xathan; commiserations that it was disappointing. Actually it does bring up a side issue- how is your sister doing? I recall It was interesting to hear your design/codification process. Contrary to your stated concerns, I do not think there are overly many errors and your sentences are coherently assembled- no need for outsized self-flagellation.  :suprised:

Thank you for the birthday wishes! Glad you found that interesting, I'll probably do that here and there because it's fun to post. And I appreciate the vote of confidence - didn't mean for it to come across as self-flagellation, more just honest concern. :)

I don't intend on getting into details, but to make a long story very short, my sister and I are not on speaking terms, and reconciliation at any point in the near future seems unlikely.

QuoteSteerpike or Xathan: Why does Harpy have 8 Melee as a Brute? Am I missing out on an optimization option? As a corollary- should brutes really have less melee skill than an adventuring detective? I suppose it is the "attacks" that are the difference makers? (asking for understanding).

Harpy has the Brawler customization options, giving her a +2 to melee.

As far as their skill goes, most Brutes in comics seem to be somewhat inaccurate in their fighting, as their devastating haymakers often go wild. Adventuring Detectives, such as the Question, seem to rarely miss their blows, but don't hit particularly hard. That's what I was trying to go for there. This is the second question about Adventuring Detective's base melee skill, though, so I may be giving that a look over and tweaking it down.

---------------

So my mind has been on masterminds lately and I wrote up four as part of my worldbuilding attempts today. Hope you enjoy four of the greatest threats to the world! Also, anything that comes from another language was accomplished by running it through Freetranslation and crossing my fingers, so if it's horribly off, I apologize. I'm plopping these guys in the discussion thread for now, as I still am trying to make some decisions about where villains and other world information should go, and they're not quite finish.

[ic=Lady Dusk]Dama Del Atardecer (Lady of the Dusk, typically referred to as Lady Dusk in English papers) is the ruthless dictator of Pureza, a small South American nation on the Eastern coast of Argentina. Pureza (lit. "Purity") is what remains of the attempt to overthrow the existing government and establish the Fourth Reich. Lead by Lady Dusk's husband (himself the grandson of a Nazi officer that fled post war to Argentina), the Neo-Nazi uprising was fairly successful initially, and actually seized control of the government for several months. The hero Warmech, horrified that his Power Suits were being used by the secret police, worked with the rebels still fighting to take down the Fourth Reich. Although they were able to reclaim most of Argentina, everything south of Rio Deseado - including Puerto Deseado - remained in Reich hands.

After their near total defeat, a number of Reich loyalists fled to the newfound nation of  Pureza, as well as sympathizers from across the globe. The original Furher, and Lady Dusk's husband, died from wounds sustained during the war, and she took control of the nation, which she now rules with an iron fist.

Lady Dusk, whose real name is Adela Reya Anochecer, is a woman renowned for her intellect. A brilliant scientist, she has vastly improved upon Warmech's original Night Guard armor systems in addition to turning her tiny nation into one of the most scientifically accomplished nations on the planet. Many young immigrants have been drawn to the fascist dictatorship with promises of free education and housing - only to find themselves trapped in a web of debts and regulations. Although she draws upon the visual references of the Nazi party, particularly favoring the now omnipresent swastika, she only pays lip service to their ideas of racial purity. She instead believes that there are no naturally pure humans, and the entire race must be purified though her own genetic engineering - a purification process that seems to always instill a great deal of loyalty in her personally. There are rumors that she also dabbles into the Occult and is known to be responsible for terrorists attacks worldwide, both mundane and super-powered, as she seeks to further destabilize the globe to make her eventual world domination inevitable. A master strategist, the Exachs crossed swords with her on numerous occasions, although Warmech always had a personal vendetta against the dictator.

Lady Dusk held a public day of mourning in the wake of the Exarch's sacrifice, though she did not explain her motivations for honoring her old foes in such a matter. She - and by extension, the Fourth Reich - has been quiet since their deaths, although some reports indicate they may be preparing for some form of mobilization.[/ic]

[ic=Geheimkamfer]Not an individual but an organization, the Geheimkamfer (often abbreviated GKR) are a Nazi terrorist organization that grew out of the fall of the Third Reich. Seeking to bring about their own world domination under the umbrella of their leader, Schwarz Klinge - the powered terrorst better known as The Black Blade.

Despite the similarities in their ideology and symbolism, the Geheimkamfer believe in the purity of the Aryan race and find Lady Dusk's belief in "engineered perfection" to be a betrayal of their cause. As such, the two groups often find themselves at odds, although they have recently been trying to stay out of each other's ways while not actually cooperating.

MORE INFO COMING[/ic]

[ic=Phillip Clawson]CEO of the billion dollar tech company Chronodyne, Phillip Clawson is a ruthless businessman who has fought long and hard to become one of the most successful on the planet. Seemingly motivated purely by greed, he is an extremely powerful and dangerous foe, valuing ruthlessness, efficiency, and creative problem solving above all else. With various branches of Chronodyne across the globe, Phillip has tangled with the Exarchs on numerous occasions - and always emerged legally clean. See, as part of an unfortunate accident years ago, Phillip was cloned numerous times by an experimental procedure, and the clones escaped, many of them quite deranged.

Or at least, that's his official story. While the public often debates as to the truth of this, the Exarchs never believed the clone story, seeing as how a new clone is only ever uncovered -after- it has been arrested for the latest crime which is when the "original" emerges yet again. There are 8 different Phillip Clawson clones sitting contentedly in prisons across the world, while the current one still runs free. His large donations to charitable organizations - always carefully targeted at non-politically charged causes - has helped keep his public perception from falling too far.

MORE INFO COMING [/ic]

[ic=Tyrant Rex]Hailing from the Inner Earth, a realm beneath the ground inhabited by dinosaurs, mindless mutants, and monsters, Tyrant Rex is a different kind of creature. A freak of nature, Tyrant Rex is a mutated cave tyrannosaurus - with a hyper-developed brain that grants him intelligence beyond most humans. Using his advanced intellect, he made a pair of prosthetic arms to compensate for his pitiful forelimbs (that were late upgraded to full on cybernetic augmentations) and has begun a campaign to claim a portion of the surface for his brethren - other dinosaurs and Inner Earth reptilians he has granted intelligence to.

Leading this highly advanced dinosaur armor, Tyrant Rex first encountered the surface when he attempted to carve a kingdom out of a relatively small collection of islands he thought would be easy to conquer. Unfortunately, that collection of islands was Japan, and Hyper Radiant Power Spider teamed up with the Legendary Super Warrior Squad (Japan's national hero team) to push him back into the earth. Since then, he has attempted numerous times to carve a surface kingdom for himself, while at the same time occasionally sending genetically enhanced giant lizards to ravage Japan as punishment for his earlier humiliation at their hands.

Despite his vast power and intellect, Tyrant Rex is incredibly petty - at times having plans that would have been complete successes derailed for him to address a personal grievance. It's actually believed that he may be the most intelligent would-be-ruler the Exarchs ever faced, but is constantly undone by his own inability to not take things personally. (For example, if he were to gather all the giant monsters – kaiju – he had sent at Japan and forge them into a single force, he'd likely be able to take over many other areas of the planet, but due to feeling as though they humiliated him he constantly wastes the creatures against the island nation.

The elusive vigilante Scythe is rumored to actually be a rogue creation of Tyrant Rex's, given his strong resemblance to an armored raptor.[/ic]

Their backgrounds are still being worked on and I have yet to decide on all the customization options for a few of them, but the preliminary stats for Internationale are up if you want to check them out, Xathan.

Quote from: Xathanno, you cannot, because otherwise the option becomes so good there's no reason to do anything else.

I don't agree with this logic at all. If one option is too good, then you should probably make all of the other options more attractive as well, or at least increase the cost of the really good one to balance it out. Just forbidding it at character creation without actually fixing the underlying issue doesn't actually solve anything, only pushes the problem into the future. Everything else being less good will become evident again when people start amassing enough reputation to spend on things.

Is there any downside to having lots of team members? Is there going to be any kind of cap on total team members?

I see your point sparkletwist, although most of the base upgrades are wealth-based, whereas recruitment is reputation-based. Adding a new team member right away might be best when you get 2 free picks of customization options, but later in the game you're not forced into the same choices.

Mentor might still be a little on the weak side compared to a new member for the cost. It's hard to say since I'm not sure how beneficial research is at this point, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy a new character with similar research skills to the Mentor? If the base comes under attack, can a Mentor fight?

BTW welcome to the joys of running a forum game, Xathan... about a million player questions  :wink:. There's a reason my CBG inbox has 1820 messages in it.

Steerpike -

QuoteThere's a reason my CBG inbox has 1820 messages in it.

...Maybe that's just because you don't clean it :P. I'm actually surprised we don't have a limit on the # of messages.

Xathan-

I like Clawson's strategy- I haven't seen that done before. It's amusing.

QuoteI don't intend on getting into details, but to make a long story very short, my sister and I are not on speaking terms, and reconciliation at any point in the near future seems unlikely.

Sorry that happened. Apologies for bringing it up. I did not expect that.

QuoteHarpy has the Brawler customization options, giving her a +2 to melee.

As far as their skill goes, most Brutes in comics seem to be somewhat inaccurate in their fighting, as their devastating haymakers often go wild. Adventuring Detectives, such as the Question, seem to rarely miss their blows, but don't hit particularly hard. That's what I was trying to go for there. This is the second question about Adventuring Detective's base melee skill, though, so I may be giving that a look over and tweaking it down.

Thank you. That clarifies matters!

Quote from: Superbright
Their backgrounds are still being worked on and I have yet to decide on all the customization options for a few of them, but the preliminary stats for Internationale are up if you want to check them out, Xathan.

Will do! Tomorrow I'm going to go over the whole list for everyone that's posted so far and check them out. :)

Quote from: sparkletwist
I don't agree with this logic at all. If one option is too good, then you should probably make all of the other options more attractive as well, or at least increase the cost of the really good one to balance it out. Just forbidding it at character creation without actually fixing the underlying issue doesn't actually solve anything, only pushes the problem into the future. Everything else being less good will become evident again when people start amassing enough reputation to spend on things.

You're right, and I hadn't thought of this. Right now, I'm having trouble figuring out how to make other options as good as a full fledged character without just jacking up the cost of a full fledged character (which may be what I have to do)

However, even if I found a solution to that, I don't want new full fledged characters coming in at week 1, because I want to keep the predictability of knowing that even if I have N players, the most possible combats I'll have week 1 is N x 4, and I want to see how I handle it without that number getting too much bigger.

Quote from: Steerpike
Is there any downside to having lots of team members? Is there going to be any kind of cap on total team members?

As it stands right now, I don't intend on capping how many full fledged heroes you can have. However, I may have to do that if the turns start getting close to unmanageable. I don't see there being a real downside to eventually having lots of team members (unless you add lots of optional members though the Loose Confederation option without increasing your core number first)

QuoteI see your point sparkletwist, although most of the base upgrades are wealth-based, whereas recruitment is reputation-based. Adding a new team member right away might be best when you get 2 free picks of customization options, but later in the game you're not forced into the same choices.

Which is possible. I'm going to spend Tomorrow and Friday hammering out the last few "turn one critical" system issues so we can still be on track for Week 1 on Monday. Based on the feedback, I'm going to give a very close look at reputation costs while I do that so I don't need to change them right after Week 1.

QuoteMentor might still be a little on the weak side compared to a new member for the cost. It's hard to say since I'm not sure how beneficial research is at this point, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy a new character with similar research skills to the Mentor? If the base comes under attack, can a Mentor fight?

The Mentor...yeah, a new character with research skills is pretty much always going to be better. I'm going to need to slash the cost of Mentor or make it more useful. The idea of the mentor being able to fight when the base comes under attack is nice...but at that point, it's still going to be a full fledged hero.

In fact, an idea occurs to me: I can rework Mentor where it works like a version of Loose Confederation. You only get one Mentor, which is built as a full fledged hero, but unlike Loose Confederation the Mentor is capable of doing research and fighting to defend the base even if all other heroes are active and in the field (Obviously, the two wouldn't work together).

QuoteBTW welcome to the joys of running a forum game, Xathan... about a million player questions  :wink:. There's a reason my CBG inbox has 1820 messages in it.

hahaha, I can see that! Then again, seeing as I remember being probably a good 400 of those messages solo back in the UD days, I feel like I have a good feel for what it's like from the other side.

Quote from: Light Cube
I like Clawson's strategy- I haven't seen that done before. It's amusing.

Thanks. Glad you like one of them!

Quote
Sorry that happened. Apologies for bringing it up. I did not expect that.

Thanks. No apology needed, you had no way of knowing.

Quote

Thank you. That clarifies matters!

Happy to help! :)

Should we post our bases alongside/underneath our characters?

Quote from: Steerpike
Should we post our bases alongside/underneath our characters?

Yes. Wow, can't believe I forgot to put that it character creation. Go ahead and put it in this format:

[ic=base]
Post a general dis rioting here.[ooc=details]oost mechanics stuff here[/ooc][/ic]

Edit: also, could you all do me a favor and if you change anything on the character thread, let me know? There's been a couple points where people have added/or changed things but I couldn't figure out what. Just shoot me a pm or post here, either way works.

Alright, here are the combat systems I'm looking at: feedback would be very much appreciated on these options.

A) The current system, but removing the wounds and injuries. It doesn't feel very much like super heroics if people are constantly getting benched because fights go bad - heroes tend to be captured or end up fine, no middle ground. Instead, after taking 5 damage, you are out of the fight. Capture and Escape come into play only if one side is trying to withdraw early, before being taken out. If the entire team is taken out, it's assumed they all failed their escape attempts.

This preserves a combat system that is much closer to how comic books works. It has the advantage of, for all the variations I've tried, feeling the best and leading to the better test of your heroes' ability. The downside is that fights take the longest under this method, so there will be a bit more of a delay between updates.

B) Is the quickest option, and one suggested by the mistress of crunch Sparkletwist: One side rolls d20+attack+damage ( times MS if fighting mooks), against the other sides defense+toughness.  Then the other side goes. Each team earns "Points" based on how much the attacker beat the defender by (0 if they did not win). At the end of the round, whoever has the most "points" won the round (if both sides got the same number, it's a draw). Combat would be a race to 3 - whoever wins 3 rounds first would win the overall combat. It's extremely quick - I can do combats with this in about 25% of the time of the other method. Also, snares/buffs/afflictions do not lose their effectiveness, because they reduce the opposing teams point earning potential but increases your own. The loosing side then makes Escape checks against the winning sides capture checks to determine if they get away to fight another day.

The downside to this system is that it completely changes how strong some archetypes are. Most characters have an attack+defense in the 14-18 area, while most characters have a defense+toughness in a similar range. That mean pretty much everyone can hit as hard, and pretty much everyone can soak as hard, as everyone else (Barring Impervious Toughness, which would really become the only point where damage and toughness would matter). This makes things feel very same-y...but since that feeling is all on the back end since I'm doing all the rolls, I'm not sure if that would bother anyone.

C) This is the hybrid method. One side rolls d20+attack against the static defense. If there is a hit, the defender rolls toughness vs. save DC. If you fail, the attacking team gets a point. if you fail by 6-10, the attacking team gets 2 points, if you fail by 11-15 it's 3 points, etc. Then both sides swap. At the end of the round, the side with the most points win, and then as above, whoever is the first to 3 rounds is the victor. This method gets the advantages of both methods in that it "feels" more like a superhero brawl, and it is faster than option A, but it's not quite as fast as option B - in my internal playtests, it takes about twice as long as option B fights. It's actually the method that I like best in my head, and the one I'm leaning towards, but there's another downside here - with the increments of 5, rounds become ties much more often, so fights can drag out for a while. My solution to this is that if a fight ties 3 rounds in a fight, then the team that's ahead automatically wins. If the teams are tied in number of rounds won, subsequent rounds become sudden death, which keeps things manageable.

So that's where I'm at. Thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Option B is definitely faster, but I don't really like it. Why even bother with separate Attack and Damage or Defense and Toughness stats if they're just going to be added together? You'd have to change the character creation rules, and it very much flattens everything out. Really characters would just need two scores, an Attack score and a Defense score, and there'd be no distinction between, say, a speedy, agile character who really can't get hit but lands a lot of light blows, and a tough, brutish character who can absorb lots of damage and dishes it out in equal measure. A lot of the point of super hero fights is the idea of a complex rock/paper/scissors style balancing act of powers, I think - about certain strengths overcoming weaknesses.

I like Option C more than Option B, but the whole points system does feel a little strange to me, and frankly I'm a little confused about how it works with multi-character combats. In this method, like Option B, "one side" rolls attack while the "other side" rolls defense. But different characters on different sides have different attacks and defense, right? So how does that work? What if one hero is doing really well while another is getting pummeled? Do they still get defeated even though they haven't been touched by the enemy, and could totally keep fighting and winning themselves? Or is the whole first side vs second side strictly one on one? What happens in a two-on-one fight?

It also means that powers like a healing factor would need to be rewritten or removed because they no longer make sense in a system that's not really about damage.

Furthermore, if you put a cap on the number of rounds that can be fought before victory is declared, minions might also need some pretty major adjustment. What happens if a hero goes up solo against a villain with a whole bunch of minions and spends the first 3 rounds taking them out before even getting to the supervillain? Does that mean the hero has "won"? If so, then it's actually a disincentive for a villain to acquire minions, because it's basically the same thing as giving the hero free points, right? The point of minions is surely to soften the hero up before the villain swoops in: the minions aren't supposed to actually win, they're supposed to do a little damage to the hero on his way to the villain. In a system with a fixed number of rounds, it makes very little sense to have minions, since they're very likely to lose and therefore to give the fight away sort of arbitrarily. In a system with damage, minions still make sense.

...Unless maybe I'm misinterpreting here, and there would be separate 3 round fights for each "individual fight" within a larger battle? Is that correct? In that case minions would still make sense, I think. But your terminology "attacking team" etc suggests this isn't the case.

Overall, then, I think I'm pretty firmly in favour of Option A, if I'm understanding all the options correctly, but I can see why a time-consuming fight might be a drag for you; really, I think you should just pick the one you like best and then we should all deal with it. I should perhaps add that personally I do not mind update delays at all and would actually see them as a slight bonus, but others might not like delays.

I'm also not really sure what the upside to removing Wounds/Injuries is since retreating after 5 is the standard or default: you have to specify in your orders to keep fighting past that. Superheroes may not always get wounded but they do (http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110121220838/marvel_dc/images/b/bf/Bane_0020.jpg) get (http://www.amoeba.com/admin/uploads/blog/Charles/killing-joke-barbara-shot.jpg) wounded (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/25674/2278308-usm158_033lqxl.jpg). Is it a time worry? Or just that there seem to be relatively few consequences for getting Wounded/Injured beyond the penalties? Maybe if some more negative consequences were added in for taking Wounds or Injuries (like, they take time to go away) this would help. I might be missing something about that in the rules, though.

In defense of Option B, I suggested it before the entire set of rules had been posted so I wasn't yet fully aware of the intended interactions between attacks, defense, toughness, and such, and I wasn't clear how damage and toughness was going to work. The point of separating the different stats only to add them together was, as I saw it, that some attacks would target different saves: one ranged weapon would target Dodge+Toughness, while another would target Dodge+Resistance, for example, so you'd have distinctions there. That said, there might still be some "flatness" relative to the way it is now, but I'm going to take the position that for an asynchronous forum game in which you've got a team of heroes, that's a good thing, tactically speaking. Otherwise you've got to decide ahead of time whether your 8-attack, 4-damage guy or your 4-attack, 8-damage guy is better to throw into a certain fight against a certain foe, and dilemmas like that are where the Underdeep simulator came from. Just to be clear, I think the Underdeep simulator itself was an awesome piece of software and I'm glad we had it-- but the fact it had to exist was a design flaw in the system, in my opinion.

As for the "points" structure, the way I intended it was that the best-of-3 structure was only intended for a one-on-one fight. Multi-character combats would be a "tournament" structure, with everyone getting to make an attack each round and then one character (or some number of minions) being eliminated from the fight at the end each round-- the hero doesn't actually win against the supervillain until it's down to the two of them and he's managed to win 2 rounds, so minions still serve a purpose, as they're potentially earning "points" for the villain's side every round they're still around. I'm not 100% sure how it'd work, because, as mentioned before, I suggested the system before everything had been posted so I'm not really clear how to reconcile it with the current mechanics, so you're right that healing as written doesn't work right any more.

Anyway, some other questions for Xathan:
Do you mind if I rearrange the Battlesuit stats a bit? 6 Science and 5 Media is great for Tony Stark, but I'm trying to create someone more like a Sister of Battle, with the whole technomagery vibe and not nearly being as media-savvy. I was thinking 4 Science, 4 Occult, and 2 Media instead, with one point left over to put wherever. Or not, if you think it'd balance better to just drop the leftover point.

What do "half ranks" mean for Sidekicks? How exactly do you create one?

What is a "minor power" and a "major power" as listed under the Android? Is this left over from an earlier revision?

The general rule seems to be weapon has a DC of 15+damage, but Costumed Vigilantes have a Shuriken attack 4 with a DC of 23. Is this intentional, or a typo?

Is there any reason at all to take Super Movement? No Man Left Behind gives +4 to escape to everyone not just you, Density Control lets you go through objects and also gives some impervious toughness, and the ability to scale any object seems at most equal and at best strictly worse than Flight. Now that I think about it, Power Leap also seems strictly worse than Flight, if I'm reading it correctly, because it's just the same tactical advantage with a -2 penalty tacked on.

Quote from: sparkletwistsome attacks would target different saves: one ranged weapon would target Dodge+Toughness, while another would target Dodge+Resistance, for example, so you'd have distinctions there.

Oh, that's a really neat distinction! I could totally see that working actually. It would take some rewriting/reworking to be sure, but there's still room for granularity.

I'm not sold on the idea of flatness as a feature given the prevalence of archetypes to character creation. If a homogenous base on which to layer powers was more desirable I'd say a "classless" system would make more sense.

Quote from: sparkletwistOtherwise you've got to decide ahead of time whether your 8-attack, 4-damage guy or your 4-attack, 8-damage guy is better to throw into a certain fight against a certain foe.

Maybe I'm crazy but this seems like a big draw to me - a feature not a bug. If we're not making tactical decisions like this then what kind of tactical decisions are we going to be making? I take your point about the Underdeep simulator, but Underdeep had a kajillion unit types with a pretty extensive library of spells and abilities to boot.

Quote from: sparkletwistAs for the "points" structure, the way I intended it was that the best-of-3 structure was only intended for a one-on-one fight. Multi-character combats would be a "tournament" structure, with everyone getting to make an attack each round and then one character (or some number of minions) being eliminated from the fight at the end each round-- the hero doesn't actually win against the supervillain until it's down to the two of them and he's managed to win 2 rounds, so minions still serve a purpose, as they're potentially earning "points" for the villain's side every round they're still around.

This is pretty interesting, and could actually work really well. I'm not sure how it would compare time-wise to crunching combats using the other systems, but it's a neat solution. The tournament structure would need some carefully regulated mechanics to accomodate the very diverse match-ups that could potentially be made (like, what happens when two superhero teams with sidekicks attack a villain with their own sets of minions...).

Also I second sparkletwist's question about minor and major powers. I'm pretty sure it's leftover from earlier revisions but as one of my character's is a Vampire I'm curious.

Quote from: SteerpikeIt would take some rewriting/reworking to be sure, but there's still room for granularity.

I agree, and this may be what really sinks that option, because it's probably too much to ask of Xathan to rebalance everything.

Quote from: SteerpikeIMaybe I'm crazy but this seems like a big draw to me - a feature not a bug. If we're not making tactical decisions like this then what kind of tactical decisions are we going to be making?

I'm not against tactical decisions, but I am against tactical decisions that have to be made based on information that may not be transparently presented. Basically, I don't want there to be any tactical decision that has to be made where someone with a simulator has a distinct advantage over someone who just has a basic knowledge of math and probability. The somewhat complex interaction between attack/defense and damage/toughness might qualify here, but it may also not be that feasible to eliminate without major changes to the system that Xathan doesn't want to bother with, and it's ok if that's the case-- but I feel it's an important consideration to at least mention.

I see where you're coming from. I feel like it's not as big a deal in an essentially cooperative game. This a bit of a tangent and I think something that comes down to preference... maybe it's because I come from a wargaming background (even before D&D) but not having all the information has always been a plus, for me - like, if you have complete information and enough time to crunch the numbers, you'd come up with the statistically correct move almost every time, whereas if you're relying on judgment and intuition but have a very incomplete view of the battlefield and don't have all the numbers you have to take risks and experiment. In a sense I prefer it when there are enough unknown or semi-known variables that the outcome of a given combat is somewhat unpredictable, otherwise battles are just math problems. I feel like you like that aspect, though, which is cool. Just different tastes.

Quote
A) The current system, but removing the wounds and injuries. It doesn't feel very much like super heroics if people are constantly getting benched because fights go bad - heroes tend to be captured or end up fine, no middle ground. Instead, after taking 5 damage, you are out of the fight. Capture and Escape come into play only if one side is trying to withdraw early, before being taken out. If the entire team is taken out, it's assumed they all failed their escape attempts.

This preserves a combat system that is much closer to how comic books works. It has the advantage of, for all the variations I've tried, feeling the best and leading to the better test of your heroes' ability. The downside is that fights take the longest under this method, so there will be a bit more of a delay between updates.

B) Is the quickest option, and one suggested by the mistress of crunch Sparkletwist: One side rolls d20+attack+damage ( times MS if fighting mooks), against the other sides defense+toughness.  Then the other side goes. Each team earns "Points" based on how much the attacker beat the defender by (0 if they did not win). At the end of the round, whoever has the most "points" won the round (if both sides got the same number, it's a draw). Combat would be a race to 3 - whoever wins 3 rounds first would win the overall combat. It's extremely quick - I can do combats with this in about 25% of the time of the other method. Also, snares/buffs/afflictions do not lose their effectiveness, because they reduce the opposing teams point earning potential but increases your own. The loosing side then makes Escape checks against the winning sides capture checks to determine if they get away to fight another day.

The downside to this system is that it completely changes how strong some archetypes are. Most characters have an attack+defense in the 14-18 area, while most characters have a defense+toughness in a similar range. That mean pretty much everyone can hit as hard, and pretty much everyone can soak as hard, as everyone else (Barring Impervious Toughness, which would really become the only point where damage and toughness would matter). This makes things feel very same-y...but since that feeling is all on the back end since I'm doing all the rolls, I'm not sure if that would bother anyone.

C) This is the hybrid method. One side rolls d20+attack against the static defense. If there is a hit, the defender rolls toughness vs. save DC. If you fail, the attacking team gets a point. if you fail by 6-10, the attacking team gets 2 points, if you fail by 11-15 it's 3 points, etc. Then both sides swap. At the end of the round, the side with the most points win, and then as above, whoever is the first to 3 rounds is the victor. This method gets the advantages of both methods in that it "feels" more like a superhero brawl, and it is faster than option A, but it's not quite as fast as option B - in my internal playtests, it takes about twice as long as option B fights. It's actually the method that I like best in my head, and the one I'm leaning towards, but there's another downside here - with the increments of 5, rounds become ties much more often, so fights can drag out for a while. My solution to this is that if a fight ties 3 rounds in a fight, then the team that's ahead automatically wins. If the teams are tied in number of rounds won, subsequent rounds become sudden death, which keeps things manageable.

So that's where I'm at. Thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I was actually a bit worried that you'd have too much boring rolling to do and was concerned that it was going to be more complex than what I had set up for the Bounty Hunters of the Cadaverous Earth game, which I found to already be on the line of what is acceptable. I think you could even make it just a trumped up Rock/Paper/Scissors thing-- since ultimately you're the one simulating everything it can be more simple than say DnD or Mutants and Masterminds simulated out entirely.

Of the above 3- I do not see what effect the powers would have. Would they be bonuses on the fight? They seem just like window dressing with the options you give.

I like option C the best.

Quote from: Light CubeOf the above 3- I do not see what effect the powers would have. Would they be bonuses on the fight? They seem just like window dressing with the options you give.

A lot of the powers influence combat stats, LC. For example, take Force Field: You can wrap yourself in a bubble of power, protecting yourself from harm! Gain +4 toughness. Or Teleportation: You can move from one place to another instantaneously. Gain a +2 dodge, +2 melee, and +4 escape. Those have a concrete effect in combat.

Some are themselves attacks, like Energy Blasts: You have the ability, on top of everything else you can do, to fire energy, typically out of either your eyes or hands. Gain a Ranged Damage 4 (DC 19, MS 2). For a Second Rank, it becomes a Ranged Damage 8 (DC 23, MS 4). Now, if points were substitued for a damage system those would have to be modified since characters would no longer take damage.

Others grant special bonuses in combat, like being immune to melee non-fliers for Flight.

Presumably powers like Mind Control could be used in lieu of a regular attack, though I'm not wholly sure...

QuoteA lot of the powers influence combat stats

Good point...
Maybe it was just a few that were missing it.
I was specifically thinking of this special ability.

Long Range Telepathy: You don't need to be near someone to read their mind. You can find the minds of others at great range and use your telepathy upon them! While other heroes or mastermind villains have willpower strong enough to resist you, the secrets of the weak willed are yours. Requires telepathy.

And Telepathy.

First of all, thank you all for the detailed thoughts on the issue. It's really helped clarified things for me. :)

It's correct that I really do not want to rebalance the entire system for the combat change, because that would drive me slightly mental, and may drive many people to want to rebuild their characters entirely to take the changes into account which would drive everyone even more mental...yeah, just a messy proposition all around.

After reading over both the posts, here's my plan for now: I'm going to keep the combat system as is for now, sans injuries. Injuries and wounds, as opposed to being the default state, are one of the options for people to inflict on a successful capture check, which (given the examples you showed, Steerpike) is typically how it happens in comics - real wounds are typically only inflicted after the fight is lost, not in the heat of battle.

Quote]. Is it a time worry? Or just that there seem to be relatively few consequences for getting Wounded/Injured beyond the penalties? Maybe if some more negative consequences were added in for taking Wounds or Injuries (like, they take time to go away) this would help. I might be missing something about that in the rules, though.

It's partially a time issue, as it makes fights drag on much longer, but it's also partially an issue of, under the current system, the player would have to word orders in very specific ways for it to not be a potential issue of a long term wound every single fight...which does not feel very Super Hero to me at all. Plus, there's a high risk here of someone's entire team getting benched on a semi-regular basis, and that kind of thing should happen rarely, not be an all the time risk.

QuoteThat said, there might still be some "flatness" relative to the way it is now, but I'm going to take the position that for an asynchronous forum game in which you've got a team of heroes, that's a good thing, tactically speaking. Otherwise you've got to decide ahead of time whether your 8-attack, 4-damage guy or your 4-attack, 8-damage guy is better to throw into a certain fight against a certain foe

And that's one area where, from some playtests, I've figured a few things out.

Using your examples, in most cases, your theoretical guys are going to preform equally well (barring Impervious Toughness 4 or higher). The 8 attack, 4 damage guy is going to hit more often, but the target is going to resist the blows most of the time, while your 4 attack, 8 damage guy is going to have trouble landing a hit, but is much more likely to actually cause damage in the process. It's possible someone will need to create a simulator to figure out who is best on any given fight...but I've decided I'm okay with that initially.

One thing also, that I realize I haven't mentioned yet, is you may not always be going into combat with complete information: a big component of research is actually learning your opponent's stats and how many minions / backup will be present. However, if you don't research in advance or can't get a high enough roll on research to get the information, you have to decide between waiting longer or acting on limited intel.

Quote from: SparkletwistAs for the "points" structure, the way I intended it was that the best-of-3 structure was only intended for a one-on-one fight. Multi-character combats would be a "tournament" structure, with everyone getting to make an attack each round and then one character (or some number of minions) being eliminated from the fight at the end each round-- the hero doesn't actually win against the supervillain until it's down to the two of them and he's managed to win 2 rounds, so minions still serve a purpose, as they're potentially earning "points" for the villain's side every round they're still around.

And that's my plan B. If the system as it is now becomes too complex or takes too long or I just get two damn frustrated while doing it, I'll be moving to option C with a tournament system. That's not going to solve the issue of non-linear system, but it will streamline combat immensely which will help significantly.

QuoteI was actually a bit worried that you'd have too much boring rolling to do and was concerned that it was going to be more complex than what I had set up for the Bounty Hunters of the Cadaverous Earth game, which I found to already be on the line of what is acceptable. I think you could even make it just a trumped up Rock/Paper/Scissors thing-- since ultimately you're the one simulating everything it can be more simple than say DnD or Mutants and Masterminds simulated out entirely.

I debated a few super simple rock-paper-scissors types systems, but all of them I felt detracted too hard from the actual game, because the "winner" was always a given going in, which was feeling really bland. I don't mind rolling the more complex fights, because it'll lead to better updates for y'all to read and ponder, so long as I can get turns done in a reasonable time.

QuoteOf the above 3- I do not see what effect the powers would have. Would they be bonuses on the fight? They seem just like window dressing with the options you give.

Most of the powers should have the bonuses they provide in the fight. Some powers do not provide any kind of combat bonus and are mainly out-of-combat advantages. Could you clarify which ones seem like window dressing so I can help explain? :)

EDIT: Actually, it looks like Steerpike hit the key talking points here, because he is exactly right, including about things like Mind Control being used in combat in place of an attack. Telepathy (short or long) is more useful for Intel gathering than for combat.

Now on to some other questions not related to the combat system!

QuoteDo you mind if I rearrange the Battlesuit stats a bit? 6 Science and 5 Media is great for Tony Stark, but I'm trying to create someone more like a Sister of Battle, with the whole technomagery vibe and not nearly being as media-savvy. I was thinking 4 Science, 4 Occult, and 2 Media instead, with one point left over to put wherever. Or not, if you think it'd balance better to just drop the leftover point.

For a technomage type, that's fine - go ahead and pick science or occult or media and put that spare point into that.

QuoteWhat do "half ranks" mean for Sidekicks? How exactly do you create one?

Bugger, I forgot to write up sidekicks full. Basically, a sidekick has half the attack, defense, saves, skills, and DC ranks of a full character, rounded up. Basically, build a full character, and divide everything by 2.

The exception is DC ranks. Instead, DC is determined by (for resistance and will) taking the ranks in the appropriate ability (So the 8 in Snare 8) and adding ten (DC 18). You only half the ranks for a sidekick, so the DC for the snare 8 would be DC 14. For Toughness saves, it's half the ranks + 15, so a blast 8 would normally have a DC of 23, but since it's half ranks it would be DC 19 toughness.

QuoteWhat is a "minor power" and a "major power" as listed under the Android? Is this left over from an earlier revision?

Minor power and major power were distinctions that were lost during the revision process, correct. I'll go ahead tonight and clean up those references.

QuoteThe general rule seems to be weapon has a DC of 15+damage, but Costumed Vigilantes have a Shuriken attack 4 with a DC of 23. Is this intentional, or a typo?

No, that's a typo, it should be 19, you are correct about the general rule.

QuoteIs there any reason at all to take Super Movement? No Man Left Behind gives +4 to escape to everyone not just you, Density Control lets you go through objects and also gives some impervious toughness, and the ability to scale any object seems at most equal and at best strictly worse than Flight. Now that I think about it, Power Leap also seems strictly worse than Flight, if I'm reading it correctly, because it's just the same tactical advantage with a -2 penalty tacked on.

This is where Minor and Major powers used to come in, since Flight was major and Super Movement was minor. I'm going to go ahead and add bonuses to all of those - the Escape option will ALSO allow you to roll escape twice and take the better result, the wall-climbing ability will apply a + 4 to stealth since most people don't check walls for climbers, the walk through wall option...will actually just probably go away, and power leap will lose the penalty.

Thanks for the answers! Yet more questions:

What is Brutebuster armor actually good for? There's no actual crunch written. Also, depending on the character's fluff needs, does it necessarily have to be a secondary suit of armor, or can it just be a power up? For that matter, is the whole power thing really necessary since that's not even something normally tracked-- could it just be simplified to a nice archetype-specific buff, sort of like The Myth Makes The Weapon?

Do characters with Warding or Agile plus impervious toughness "keep" their auto-miss until it's actually needed, or does it affect the first attack against them, even if it's something that would've never hurt them anyway due to the impervious toughness?

Do ranks of impervious toughness stack? Energy Form seems like it's phrased specifically to imply they do stack (saying it grants 3 ranks, rather than Impervious Toughness 3) but this could have been unintended.

Quote from: sparkletwist
Thanks for the answers! Yet more questions:

Yay more questions!

QuoteWhat is Brutebuster armor actually good for? There's no actual crunch written. Also, depending on the character's fluff needs, does it necessarily have to be a secondary suit of armor, or can it just be a power up? For that matter, is the whole power thing really necessary since that's not even something normally tracked-- could it just be simplified to a nice archetype-specific buff, sort of like The Myth Makes The Weapon?

ah, bollocks, thought I had posted those stats. Will do when I do the big update tonight/tomorrow. Yeah, I've ditched the power requiem re at some point during the various iterations, but it's still a second suit so you can pick before going out of you want the bigger, tougher, non-flying brute usher armor or the smaller, more agile, flying regular version.

QuoteDo characters with Warding or Agile plus impervious toughness "keep" their auto-miss until it's actually needed, or does it affect the first attack against them, even if it's something that would've never hurt them anyway due to the impervious toughness?

it is kept until needed.

QuoteDo ranks of impervious toughness stack? Energy Form seems like it's phrased specifically to imply they do stack (saying it grants 3 ranks, rather than Impervious Toughness 3) but this could have been unintended.

Impervious toughness does stack, but I'm going to pick and put a cap on those stacks, otherwise it becomes far too easy to be immune to all non-penetrating damage.

Ok, a couple of questions about complications, too.

I like the idea of Poor Power Control, but I feel like mechanically it's a lot bigger hit than the others. Everything else will come up fairly infrequently, while this one will happen every single combat round, and DC 16 is not a trivial check to make for a lot of characters. Assuming you can manage a +5, which is probably what most characters are going to manage, that's a 50/50 chance of failing, and long-term, those are terrible odds. Unless I'm misunderstanding something (like maybe the consequences aren't really that bad since superhero fights seem like they always trash wherever they take place anyway so it's like whatever) I'd recommend lowering the DC, decreasing how often the check has to be made, or both.

When will the -4 to manipulate for Reformed Villain apply? There are a lot of different occasions when you might need someone to trust you, and a lot of different levels of trust. Is a social character (i.e., Manipulate-focused) with Reformed Villain viable, or is the -4 pretty much across the board so it's not even worth bothering?

Also, would you be ok with swapping out a Battlesuit's primary weapon 8 (which seems exactly same as two ranks of the Energy Blast option) for a Snare 8?

[ooc]Just to make sure everyone sees this:

There's no way I'm going to be ready for a first turn Monday, so if you're trying to rush a team together, you can slow down. :) I'm looking at wednesday right now. Also, I've decided that you can still change your character's stats around freely during the first two weeks, so long as the backstory/basic concept doesn't change. This will put a bit less pressure on me to have the system perfectly balanced by Wednesday and allow me to focus on getting the first turn polished and ready to start, and a bit less pressure on you all to make sure you fully understand my cobbled-together rule system right now. So your stats are flexibile, so long as you solidify them by the time the first turns orders are due.

If you're looking at joining but still figuring out stats, or have posted stats but are still leaving character information out, please focus on getting character information in the thread first so I can get working on your individual information for the first turn.[/ooc]

Quote from: sparkletwist
Ok, a couple of questions about complications, too.

I like the idea of Poor Power Control, but I feel like mechanically it's a lot bigger hit than the others. Everything else will come up fairly infrequently, while this one will happen every single combat round, and DC 16 is not a trivial check to make for a lot of characters. Assuming you can manage a +5, which is probably what most characters are going to manage, that's a 50/50 chance of failing, and long-term, those are terrible odds. Unless I'm misunderstanding something (like maybe the consequences aren't really that bad since superhero fights seem like they always trash wherever they take place anyway so it's like whatever) I'd recommend lowering the DC, decreasing how often the check has to be made, or both.

Hmm...that's a good point. I think I'll make it once per combat, and taking the DC down to 14. That gives you slightly better than the 50/50 odds initially, and it's less frequent.

QuoteWhen will the -4 to manipulate for Reformed Villain apply? There are a lot of different occasions when you might need someone to trust you, and a lot of different levels of trust. Is a social character (i.e., Manipulate-focused) with Reformed Villain viable, or is the -4 pretty much across the board so it's not even worth bothering?

That wording needs to be tightened up. It's going to be A) when someone knows of your former villianous status and B) When there's a reasonable reason to believe that a villain who was trying to convince the world he or she is a hero would be trying to get you to trust them to further some villainous plot. Which is still very vague, I know, so in more concrete terms - it won't come up every single time you try to make a manipulate check, just when you're trying to make a manipulate check to get someone to trust you more -and- that trust results in obvious benefits to you and not so much to the other party. Does that make more sense, or am I explaining poorly?

QuoteAlso, would you be ok with swapping out a Battlesuit's primary weapon 8 (which seems exactly same as two ranks of the Energy Blast option) for a Snare 8?

Sure, I'd be fine with that!

Well, now that I've seen all the teams from everyone I know was planning on joining, I can officially say you all rock and I'm super excited to get this started.

To let you guys know where I'm at, I'm currently working on the turn 1 post at a friends and have suspended new mechanical things, although I'll be doing an update to the main thread to include some errata from this one, which is long overdue. Things like brute buster armor, necromancer, and speedster things will come after turn one is posted. if you're still thinking about joining and haven't posted a team yet, I need a general overview of your team by noon CST tomorrow to get you into the first turn.

Would what I have up so far qualify as a general overview? I keep stalling out when it comes to writing all of their backgrounds.

Quote from: Superbright
Would what I have up so far qualify as a general overview? I keep stalling out when it comes to writing all of their backgrounds.

I can work with what you've posted so far, absolutely, but if you could give me an even brief summary of individual people - even if it's just a few bullet points on each of them- that'd be extremely helpful.

I will try to do that by tonight. Is it something I could PM to you?

Quote from: Superbright
I will try to do that by tonight. Is it something I could PM to you?

Sure, that'd be fine! :)

I haven't filled in what options my base has, yet, because you said you were going to rework the costs of things. However, I don't think that should interfere greatly in turn 1, since I'm definitely not going to opt for a loose confederation or anything like that.

Quote from: sparkletwist
I haven't filled in what options my base has, yet, because you said you were going to rework the costs of things. However, I don't think that should interfere greatly in turn 1, since I'm definitely not going to opt for a loose confederation or anything like that.

That's totally fine. :)

Working on the turn tonight. We are on track to start tomorrow!

Update: The first post was 90% done...and then I realized I had made a pretty major mistake while writing up the turn that required me to go back and rewrite a chunk of it. I'm going to try to get it out before I go to bed tonight, but right now it's looking less likely, so I'm letting everyone know I'm terribly sorry for the slight delay and will have it up at some point Thursday night/Friday morning if I can't get it finished tonight.

Yay!

I wonder if the Underdeep-ish strict spoilerized secrecy for everything is really needed, though, since the game is not (really) PVP. Games like RR seem to do fine with a lot more out in the open, anyway.

I guess it depends on how much possibility there is for rivalry and/or conflict. RR does work well, although it has pretty limited mechanics.

Quote from: sparkletwist
Yay!

I wonder if the Underdeep-ish strict spoilerized secrecy for everything is really needed, though, since the game is not (really) PVP. Games like RR seem to do fine with a lot more out in the open, anyway.

I decided to go with the strict spoilerized secrecy (love the alliteration there) to give control of information flow between teams to players. Many superhero stories revolve around teams crossing paths and misunderstandings ensuing because of asymmetrical flow of information. Also, there may be some missions where a player will have the option to gain a large chunk of Wealth and/or Reputation, but doing so will increase the Doom Counter, and I want players to be able to make that choice without other teams knowing they made it without research or other, in game methods. But really, above all else, I just like the flow of information between characters being in control of the individual players as opposed to a default of everyone gets it. If, as the game goes on, it doesn't really benefit the story and only results in me typing [ spoiler] [/ spoiler], I'll probably make it go away. :P

The Doom Counter thing is a great point. If I know that other players are taking actions that could result in the Doom Counter increasing I might not take the same actions. It adds a cool game theory element to everything if we don't know what others are doing.

EDIT: My (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GufAHzhNcS8) soundtracks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN0Gr4ttd5M) for this  :P

I think the big consideration here is to what extent we want the players to be "in on it." That is, to what extent things like dramatic irony should matter. After all, just because something is put in the open doesn't mean that characters automatically know it simply because players do. Personally, I like having more to read, and I like seeing the story taking shape-- you, as the GM, get to do that anyway, but it seems a shame the rest of us don't. I also feel like since we're already trusting players to not just go reading stuff they shouldn't, we might as well go the extra mile and trust them to do good things with the added information, not bad things. Admittedly, my team cares very little about the Doom Counter, so that whole consideration doesn't matter to me-- increases to it wouldn't matter in my decision making at all.

As an aside, I'm glad to know there will be missions that give a rather large chunk of wealth, though. I do have to say I was pretty underwhelmed at the possibilities of wealth that could be gained, relative to the costs of things, so more options will be nice.

Irony is good, but so is suspense (and surprise) - a twist isn't really a twist if we can see it coming. That said I also like having stuff to read.

Suggestion for a middle ground we might experiment with: what if we could read each others' orders only after the current turn has passed and the update posted? This way surprises are still surprises, everything is still suspenseful, but we can all go look at what's going on in one another's bases. Secret information that needs to be for the player/narrator's eyes only even after a turn has elapsed could be marked as such.

I do think that the narrator's briefs should absolutely be kept spoilered at least for a turn. There's already one possible mission in my list that has me deciding whether ot not to let another team in on things.

Well, I admit I'm pretty biased in one direction here, so I won't keep ranting. You all know what I'm going to say anyway. :grin:

I will ask, though, Steerpike. Does having everything out in the open in RR really change anything, ultimately? Like, do you think it actually matters, or does everyone just assume that other characters won't act on information they can't reasonably be expected to have?

The thing about RR is that almost all of the gameplay is epistolary - it's either letters or speeches. The actual orders usually just reflect those two things. In this game, characters move around and could be competing for objectives. It's not really a game that's centrally about talking and persuasion in the same way as RR.

There are also some spoiler tags in RR. I don't read other players' senatorial inquests, as Polycarp suggests we shouldn't. He's also made clear that particularly secret orders should be PMed.

I think hidden information does change things, and I could imagine a version of RR where everything is spoiler-tagged and only the public speeches are available for everyone to read... there are certainly schemes that might be kept secret etc. I don't know whether this would be "better" or "worse," but it would definitely feel different.

QuoteGames like RR seem to do fine with a lot more out in the open, anyway.

There is a significant amount that is not out in the open.

We actually are not supposed to read other players Orders or anything that is not addressed to us. We just do not use spoiler tags very often.

There is also a not insignificant amount of game text that is exchanged via PM- I've had more than a few intra-turn updates.

Quote from: Steerpike
The Doom Counter thing is a great point. If I know that other players are taking actions that could result in the Doom Counter increasing I might not take the same actions. It adds a cool game theory element to everything if we don't know what others are doing.

EDIT: My (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GufAHzhNcS8) soundtracks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN0Gr4ttd5M) for this  :P

In that vein... this does not fit my team thematically, but it's still very relevant for the game :P. Its villains, anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ_dZrDECUs

QuoteSuggestion for a middle ground we might experiment with: what if we could read each others' orders only after the current turn has passed and the update posted?

That's what I did in Underdeep for competitors who were not adjacent to me. That said, some people have long term plans that will be spoiled by reading that information--if a person believes that they would act on that knowledge, it would probably be best for that person to avoid reading.

Quote from: LDWe actually are not supposed to read other players Orders or anything that is not addressed to us.

Well, it says this:

Quote from: RRIf a letter isn't addressed to your character, your character doesn't know about it, period.  I have a very high opinion of the people on the CBG and I trust them not to abuse the forum format to metagame.  That said, we can't always help ourselves, and I realize it may be necessary to conduct some business by PM - this is fine, but whenever something can be in the thread, it should be in the thread.  Most things you do won't be secret anyway - rumors are the fastest moving thing in medieval Rome, and any business you conduct that's not heavily concealed is probably going to get out.

My interpretation of that is not that it's saying "don't read it," but rather it's saying "don't abuse the information." In a game where Media is an actual stat, we should probably assume that news travels fast, anyway...

Quote from: LDThat's what I did in Underdeep for competitors who were not adjacent to me.

I don't think you were supposed to do that, technically... but it's not like anyone could stop you or even knew about it. And it didn't do any harm and you obviously didn't metagame anything.

So I think you've kind of proven my point. :grin:

Quotedon't think you were supposed to do that, technically..

I agree. I was not supposed to do that-I figured it was harmless to do for the people who were not adjacent but there was still a risk because some of them could have been networking and plotting against me in a grand design over multiple turns. I would not have, to the best of my ability, metagamed that and attempted to mitigate any risk of that by plotting out my general plan for builds for a few weeks ahead of time, so it would not be affected.

Here, however, if it bothers you that information is secret, then even under the current rules as written, you can talk with another group and share information, link your computer networks so you automatically share--that way you have an in-game reason to be able to read certain people's posts and not others. I don't see a problem with Xathan's suggestion, given that we can agree on turn 1 to auto-share with each other if our teams are compatible.

Unrelated question, but why do the Furies have two Super Jets, a Lab, and an Advanced Training Room?

Quote from: Superbrightwhy do the Furies have two Super Jets, a Lab, and an Advanced Training Room?

Quote from: XathanTo create your base, pick a location. It can be in or near or far from any city in the real world as well as any fictional city you want to dream up. The base starts as a surface base with: a Super-Jets, A Media Monitoring Station, Contact (Local Law Enforcment) and Contact (Media), and Basic Security System. After that initial loadout, you can chose from 2 of the below customization options. Some of these customization options do not directly impact your base, but will impact the team in some way or another. Base customization options are less "crunchy" than those impacting character, to create less risk of "optimization" for your characters.

My customization options were a lab and an advanced training room.

However I think my jet number was off, I could swear it was 2 jets at one point. I'll correct this, thanks.

Quote from: LDyou can talk with another group and share information, link your computer networks so you automatically share--that way you have an in-game reason to be able to read certain people's posts and not others.

My point wasn't about in-game reasons at all, though, but rather it was about reading the posts out of character vs. not doing that. My point was simply that if people don't metagame-- and people around here are generally pretty good about that-- it doesn't matter if the posts aren't secret. It's not like we can enforce secrecy anyway, so why not just let everyone read as much as possible so we can all enjoy the story we're building together?

Sometimes it's very hard not to unconsciously metagame. If I absolutely know that someone is lying to me or setting a trap for me or betraying me it's difficult to make a totally unbiased choice. It's kind of hard to genuinely deceive someone when they can see that you're lying. It changes the decision from being "do I trust this character and their motives" to "would my character trust this character and their motives?" The former is an exercise in strategic thinking and judgment, the latter just a reflection of how you view your character's judgment. Personally I prefer the former when playing roleplaying games. Strategic thinking and judgment are an important part of the experience, for me; it's not just a storytelling exercise.

Narratively speaking, though, not knowing things also increases a sense of identification with characters. If I only know the things my character knows I can more ably roleplay that character. This is the difference, to me, between roleplaying a character and telling a story about a character. Additionally, having and keeping secrets can be fun, as can manipulating and deceiving other people's characters. And I'll say again that suspense, the unknown, and the possibility of surprise/twists are a vital part of storytelling. Xathan might still have twists planned for us but essentially - it could be argued - leaving all the twists up to the narrator actually disempowers players. If we're co-storytellers collaboratively creating a narrative, shouldn't we have the chance to surprise one another? Even to create dramatic irony among ourselves - so that some players are "in" on a plan and others not? Sure, I might be "surprised" by the contents of certain orders as I read them, but reading orders and secret messages etc is more like reading someone's plans for a twist rather than experiencing the vertiginous jolt of the twist itself.

Reading orders and other hidden information only after a turn has passed would hugely mitigate metagame issues and help to preserve suspsense, secrecy, and identification. At the very least I think all orders should be finalized and locked-in before additional ooc reading is done. If people genuinely and sincerely don't want to metagame, then deferring the extra reading shouldn't affect what they do and say anyway. It's just changing the order in which information is received and decisions made.

Quote from: SteerpikeReading orders and other hidden information only after a turn has passed

I don't particularly agree with most of what you've said, but I don't have a problem with this. Xathan, can this be the official policy?

As for the rest of it, it's pretty off-topic so I made a new thread (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,210201.html).

Xathan-

For the lab, I currently have it at Scientific pursuits because I do not understand what Forensic focus will help with. It seems that forensic may help with figuring out how a crime is done or to identify a 'real villain'... but is it balanced with the other two options for Base: Laboratory?

Also-

Are my orders generally correct? Even though turns are 2 weeks in real time, they are 1 week in game time? Would it make sense to have 2 weeks game time and allow us to do 2 things per person? Possibly this may make research more complex, but we could write in "if research succeeds do X" or "if research fails or succeeds, still do X"

Quote from: Steerpike

However I think my jet number was off, I could swear it was 2 jets at one point. I'll correct this, thanks.

It was in the initial post, got dropped down at some point after. Sorry for the confusion!

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: SteerpikeReading orders and other hidden information only after a turn has passed

I don't particularly agree with most of what you've said, but I don't have a problem with this. Xathan, can this be the official policy?

I like this better than everything in the open, and I'll defer to the overall group on this, but I'd rather not. However, my concerns are not actually about metagaming.

Right now, there are a number of storylines I have in mind that only really work with the current set up. I'll give an example of one I won't be using (since I'm explaining it here, and it was my least favorite of the bunch): At some point, people were going to have a member of their team replaced with a shapeshifter. I'd be trusting the individual player not to metagame that, of course. After a bit of time with the shapeshifter, one of the teams would discover they had a shapeshifter on their team - and a missing member, who would have required some backup to help break free. When backup was called in, the shapeshifter on the backup team would have realized their cover could be blown at any moment and would have attempted to alert the other shapeshifters and it would have become a giant mess of in-character paranoia as the shapeshifters banded together to try and take down the heroes before they got caught, which would have lead to a major conflict and then, after they are defeated, the teams now have to go rescue their captive teammates etc.

However, if people are reading people's orders and know there are other shapeshifters, the story becomes boring. The tension of "I have a shapeshifter on my team, does anyone else? I hope I find out in character soon so I can alert the others of the possibility" becomes "Oh, we all have shapeshifters, there must be a big thing planned," which completely ruins any tension out of character, even if in character tension is maintained. It's not a problem of metagaming - it's a problem of the players not being surprised by twists like that. I love, in stories and gaming, those "oh, holy shit, did not see that coming" moments, and those become impossible for anything that isn't just completely out of nowhere, which has no buildup, or relies on me giving players deliberately incomplete information/outright lying to them, which is dull or frustrating, respectively.

However, I will defer to the will of the group. I can replan and cut out those possibilities if general consensus is that people would prefer to be able to read orders after the turn has passed.

Quote from: LD
Xathan-

For the lab, I currently have it at Scientific pursuits because I do not understand what Forensic focus will help with. It seems that forensic may help with figuring out how a crime is done or to identify a 'real villain'... but is it balanced with the other two options for Base: Laboratory?

Forensic is also the skill used to track a criminal's movements, tap a phone line, trace a cellphone, get financial records, interpret clues, and get the stats for villains that do not get their powers from high tech gear or magic. I was actually worried initially it would be more useful than Science or Occult.

QuoteAre my orders generally correct? Even though turns are 2 weeks in real time, they are 1 week in game time? Would it make sense to have 2 weeks game time and allow us to do 2 things per person? Possibly this may make research more complex, but we could write in "if research succeeds do X" or "if research fails or succeeds, still do X"

Yes, they are, although when doing research you should specify which skill you're using, since they reveal slightly different information. If it's ever not specified, I'll go with the highest of your skills. You are correct that 2 weeks out of game equals one week in game. The 2 weeks game time and allowing 2 things per person would make sense, but you actually touched on one of the reasons I don't want to allow 2 actions per person: it creates much more crazy if/then scenarios, which would be a headache for me. The other reason for the 1 action per character is that helps limit the amount of work I'll have to do on a given turn to keep things rolling - I'm not the fastest writer, and I don't want us to have super-long downtime between turns if it can be avoided.

Quote from: XathanI can replan and cut out those possibilities if general consensus is that people would prefer to be able to read orders after the turn has passed.

Even though I raised the "read after a turn" possibility I wouldn't say I'm advocating it. I just put it out there as a middle ground between "read everything at anytime" and "do not read hidden text." I'm happy to keep not-reading hidden text if that's what you would prefer.

I can completely see what you mean about twists and tension. There were things in Underdeep like this. I think at one point someone found the key to the door to Hell in the lower corner of the Lowerdeep, for example. No one else knew about it except that player. If time had passed it might have become a big deal but the possibility of keeping it secret was important. Of course, Underdeep was a totally different sort of game anyway, but I think it'd be harder to do twists and surprises when everyone is reading everything.

Well, everyone knows my vote. :grin:

Admittedly, I'm just not a big fan of surprise plot twists most of the time in RPGs. There's a fine line between "oh, I did not see that coming!" and "that was completely unfair," and crossing it tends to ruin a game pretty fast.

Steerpike and Hippopotamus Dundee-

In case this is a better place to note it; Letters have been sent to both of you in-game.

------------
Xathan

>>I can replan and cut out those possibilities if general consensus is that people would prefer to be able to read orders after the turn has passed.

I am fine either way.

That said, I am glad the plotline you suggest was cut- having a possession case so early before getting a few turns with characters would be annoying. Also, to echo Sparkletwist, I cannot think of a huge surprise that takes a character out of play to ever have been fun for the player. That said- here we have 4+ characters apiece, so that consideration does not weigh highly against such a course of action.

Quote"Oh, we all have shapeshifters, there must be a big thing planned," which completely ruins any tension out of character, even if in character tension is maintained.

I do not see it that way. That would not change anything for me. I would be equally suspicious either way. In a game of this nature that takes place over multiple months/years surprise does not matter that much because I am not constantly thinking about the game with enough detail for a surprise to affect me as a surprise should otherwise effect a person. It would be more of an "ok, so what?" reaction, since I will likely have forgotten most of the details/nuances what has already happened.

Ultimately- the pace of the game means that things are not going to be surprising for me since I am not involved enough/invested to be surprised- I may *care*, but I am not going to be excited by something that comes out of left field because I will probably mark it down to not remembering something that happened a month ago rather than as a plot twist.

Quote from: Steerpike
Even though I raised the "read after a turn" possibility I wouldn't say I'm advocating it. I just put it out there as a middle ground between "read everything at anytime" and "do not read hidden text." I'm happy to keep not-reading hidden text if that's what you would prefer.

Gotcha. Just to clarify, do you have a preference? Right now opinion seems to waver between with "I'm fine with either way" and "I'm strongly in favor of people being able to read hidden text", with no strong preference towards "I want hidden text to stay spoilered"

QuoteI can completely see what you mean about twists and tension. There were things in Underdeep like this. I think at one point someone found the key to the door to Hell in the lower corner of the Lowerdeep, for example. No one else knew about it except that player. If time had passed it might have become a big deal but the possibility of keeping it secret was important. Of course, Underdeep was a totally different sort of game anyway, but I think it'd be harder to do twists and surprises when everyone is reading everything.

Man, that could have been crazy! I can see how that secret would have been important - I still want to know what would have happened if that portal had been opened, but also don't want you to tell me, on the off chance you ever do decide to do a limited run of Underdeep again. :P

I'm thinking that, even if we do decide that people can read what's in messages and orders, people's briefings will remain secret. That will allow some twists and turns because people can, for example, take those missions that provide massive rewards while increasing the Doom Counter without having people know that's what they're doing, and things in mission text that lead up to big reveals won't be uncovered immediately.

Quote from: sparkletwist
Well, everyone knows my vote. :grin:

Admittedly, I'm just not a big fan of surprise plot twists most of the time in RPGs. There's a fine line between "oh, I did not see that coming!" and "that was completely unfair," and crossing it tends to ruin a game pretty fast.

Guess that's a difference. I love surprise plot twists in RPGs as a player and a DM. One of my favorite stories I've ever played in was when the GM had us aiding an ally against a major villain. Numerous plots involved this villain wrecking shit and taking this ally's advice on how to deal with said villain. At the climax, it was revealed that they were the same person the entire time, and we were being played. It was awesome, it was shocking, it was fun...and it would have been nowhere near as exciting if I had seen it coming.

Different strokes, that's all.

Quote from: LD
>>I can replan and cut out those possibilities if general consensus is that people would prefer to be able to read orders after the turn has passed.

I am fine either way.

Thanks for your vote. :)

QuoteThat said, I am glad the plotline you suggest was cut- having a possession case so early before getting a few turns with characters would be annoying. Also, to echo Sparkletwist, I cannot think of a huge surprise that takes a character out of play to ever have been fun for the player. That said- here we have 4+ characters apiece, so that consideration does not weigh highly against such a course of action.

FYI, if I was still doing the shapeshifting storyline, it would have been quite a ways in the future. This soon would have been dumb, I agree.

And one thing I wanted to clarify - if, in the course of the game, one or more of your characters gets mind controlled or possessed or something and the rest of the team isn't supposed to know about it, you as a player will know and still control the mind-controlled person. More often, though, a mind control or possession or similar will the be the result of a capture scenario.

QuoteI do not see it that way. That would not change anything for me. I would be equally suspicious either way. In a game of this nature that takes place over multiple months/years surprise does not matter that much because I am not constantly thinking about the game with enough detail for a surprise to affect me as a surprise should otherwise effect a person. It would be more of an "ok, so what?" reaction, since I will likely have forgotten most of the details/nuances what has already happened.

Ultimately- the pace of the game means that things are not going to be surprising for me since I am not involved enough/invested to be surprised- I may *care*, but I am not going to be excited by something that comes out of left field because I will probably mark it down to not remembering something that happened a month ago rather than as a plot twist.

Good to know you'd feel that way about it. I kinda feel like that would happen with any RPG, not just one in this format, but maybe that's what you're saying and I misunderstood. :P

Quote from: XathanGotcha. Just to clarify, do you have a preference? Right now opinion seems to waver between with "I'm fine with either way" and "I'm strongly in favor of people being able to read hidden text", with no strong preference towards "I want hidden text to stay spoilered"

My preference is essentially not independent of your preference. I think you should run the kind of game you want to run and the choice should be up to you. If keeping text hidden lets you narrate the way you want to narrate and construct situations the way you want to construct them that's what you should do, as far as I'm concerned. My vote is for dictatorship, I guess  :P.

But then again I'm 100% OK with stuff like getting my characters replaced by shapeshifters. I like plot twists and surprises and I don't like spoilers. I'm a bit of a masochist as a player. I like it when my characters get mutilated, get horribly transformed, cursed, placed in unfair situations, chased by things too powerful for me to take on, etc, but I don't want to be complicit or in-the-know with that stuff (then I'd be a sadist helping to do things to a character). I want it to be stuff I'm trying to avoid. Some players are pissed when they wake up naked in a dungeon cell without their precious items and like a thousand monsters between them and freedom. I love that. There's a reason Outlast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPWRkfg6-EA) is one of my favourite games (that video is probably NSFW in most environments). This probably has a lot to do with being a horror fan generally...

Quote from: XathanI can see how that secret would have been important - I still want to know what would have happened if that portal had been opened, but also don't want you to tell me, on the off chance you ever do decide to do a limited run of Underdeep again.

Looking back, sparkletwist actually knew about it too, but it made sense IC for her to since her characters were demons.

If I was ever to do a run of Underdeep I'd do new maps, so I don't think it's spoiling anything, so if you want to read:

[spoiler]The door would have revealed a new map (The Abyss) full of creatures from a Demon army list I had written up, who'd have invaded the Lowerdeep and made their way upwards. They were a very nasty faction whose currency was Souls. Everyone in the Lowerdeep would have had to start gathering allies fast, doing Faustian bargains with the invaders, or else fleeing the lower caverns.[/spoiler]
Incidentally if I ever attempted to run it again I think I'd limit it to like 3 races, probably Dwarves, Dark Elves, Goblins, and give more customization options for tribes and stuff, keep all the other races as NPCs and monster-races. And limit the players to maybe 3 or 4 max.

Quote from: Steerpike
My preference is essentially not independent of your preference. I think you should run the kind of game you want to run and the choice should be up to you. If keeping text hidden lets you narrate the way you want to narrate and construct situations the way you want to construct them that's what you should do, as far as I'm concerned. My vote is for dictatorship, I guess  :P.

Wooo dictatorship!

At this point, I am leaning towards a compromise: messages and orders can be read after they are finalized for that week, while briefings are off limits. Allows me to preserve some suspense and gives the option for the increase-doom counter missions, but still makes information freer.

QuoteBut then again I'm 100% OK with stuff like getting my characters replaced by shapeshifters. I like plot twists and surprises and I don't like spoilers. I'm a bit of a masochist as a player. I like it when my characters get mutilated, get horribly transformed, cursed, placed in unfair situations, chased by things too powerful for me to take on, etc, but I don't want to be complicit or in-the-know with that stuff (then I'd be a sadist helping to do things to a character). I want it to be stuff I'm trying to avoid. Some players are pissed when they wake up naked in a dungeon cell without their precious items and like a thousand monsters between them and freedom. I love that. There's a reason Outlast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPWRkfg6-EA) is one of my favourite games (that video is probably NSFW in most environments). This probably has a lot to do with being a horror fan generally...

I love that kind of stuff, too, so it really is a matter of taste. :D Both characters I've played in FATE games have taken an extreme consequence, so I had guy loose an arm and another loose an eye, and I was so eager to take that consequence that, in hindsight, I probably would have had other options if I had thought a bit longer a bout it (or just allowed myself to be taken out and let my allies finish the fight.) BTW, if you're a fan of aweful things happening to your characters, you really should give Darkest Dungeon a look over - it's right up your alley.

Quote

Looking back, sparkletwist actually knew about it too, but it made sense IC for her to since her characters were demons.

If I was ever to do a run of Underdeep I'd do new maps, so I don't think it's spoiling anything, so if you want to read:

[spoiler]The door would have revealed a new map (The Abyss) full of creatures from a Demon army list I had written up, who'd have invaded the Lowerdeep and made their way upwards. They were a very nasty faction whose currency was Souls. Everyone in the Lowerdeep would have had to start gathering allies fast, doing Faustian bargains with the invaders, or else fleeing the lower caverns.[/spoiler]

Oooh, nice! (Since it would be a different map, i read it.) That would have been awesome.

QuoteIncidentally if I ever attempted to run it again I think I'd limit it to like 3 races, probably Dwarves, Dark Elves, Goblins, and give more customization options for tribes and stuff, keep all the other races as NPCs and monster-races. And limit the players to maybe 3 or 4 max.

Aww, won't get to reprise Llitul and the Derro. Still, can I reserve a spot in this thing that may never actually happen? ;) I do like the idea behind the tribes customization thing - then again, as you can probably tell from how I set up this game, I'm a big fan of tons of customization options, seeing as I named a core mechanic "customization options."

Quote from: XathanI love surprise plot twists in RPGs as a player and a DM. One of my favorite stories I've ever played in was when the GM had us aiding an ally against a major villain. Numerous plots involved this villain wrecking shit and taking this ally's advice on how to deal with said villain. At the climax, it was revealed that they were the same person the entire time, and we were being played.

Well, I said most of the time, and the reason is because of that fine line. For me, personally, I could honestly see that situation playing out in an awesome way, but I could also rather easily see it feeling frustrating and unfair. It depends on how well it was set up, I think. I'll also say that I'm slightly odd in that it doesn't really diminish my enjoyment any to have some vague idea of what's coming next-- but, then again, my style of play does tend more towards being "in on it." For example...

Quote from: SteerpikeSome players are pissed when they wake up naked in a dungeon cell without their precious items and like a thousand monsters between them and freedom. I love that.

I actually like this kind of stuff, too... but only if I've been forewarned. I don't really think of myself as a sadist simply because I prefer to be asked for my OOC consent before nasty things happen to my character, though. I just think that I've got a stronger stance on player empowerment than you, and, to be honest, part of it is that I'm a bit squeamish.

Quote from: XathanBoth characters I've played in FATE games have taken an extreme consequence, so I had guy loose an arm and another loose an eye, and I was so eager to take that consequence that, in hindsight, I probably would have had other options if I had thought a bit longer a bout it (or just allowed myself to be taken out and let my allies finish the fight

Was the guy who lost an arm Gideon from the Sixsura game? Or is that another character who lost an arm? :grin:

Quote from: sparkletwist
Well, I said most of the time, and the reason is because of that fine line. For me, personally, I could honestly see that situation playing out in an awesome way, but I could also rather easily see it feeling frustrating and unfair. It depends on how well it was set up, I think. I'll also say that I'm slightly odd in that it doesn't really diminish my enjoyment any to have some vague idea of what's coming next-- but, then again, my style of play does tend more towards being "in on it." For example...

I guess it does really depend on the way it's handled. For me it's about fairness: If I, as a player, had a fair chance of figuring it out on my own (though context clues, dice rolls, or other factors I had control over) it almost never annoys me (well, the twist itself doesn't. If I missed the clues, I'll be annoyed at myself.) If I didn't get a fair chance, though, it feels like an ass pull and annoys me. So...I guess we're in similar boats, just probably have different fairness threshholds? :P

QuoteI actually like this kind of stuff, too... but only if I've been forewarned. I don't really think of myself as a sadist simply because I prefer to be asked for my OOC consent before nasty things happen to my character, though. I just think that I've got a stronger stance on player empowerment than you, and, to be honest, part of it is that I'm a bit squeamish.

And that's a really important thing, I think, for any DM: Being aware of a player's limits. For example, if I was running a one-on-one for Steerpike, I now know I can do all kinds of aweful things to his character and he'll love it. On the other hand, if running for you, I'd have to dial back my sadistic tendencies (or at least discuss them with you) to avoid making you uncomfortable or ruining the fun. Both methods are perfectly viable, and there's no better or worse here, but it's just interesting to know.

QuoteWas the guy who lost an arm Gideon from the Sixsura game? Or is that another character who lost an arm? :grin:

Actually, no. I had forgotten he had both arms as of Sixsura! So yeah, that means two characters have lost arms, one has lost an eye. (The second one to loose an arm is in a space opera and getting a flexibile cybernetic replacement...oh, I'm accidentally playing Gideon again)

Quote from: XathanI guess we're in similar boats, just probably have different fairness threshholds?

That makes sense. I think a big part of it is that it is quite subjective-- the GM might think the clues are really obvious and if the players miss them it's their own fault, and play it that way... but the clues weren't actually that good, and the players missed them because the clues weren't that good. I mean, there's no real objective way to say one way or the other, but I think that since it's a game where the group is supposed to be on the same page and have fun, it's better to err on the side of the players getting to figure things out and be awesome.

Quote from: XathanMore often, though, a mind control or possession or similar will the be the result of a capture scenario.

That sounds fair as long as the capture itself was not a gotcha, which seems to be exactly what you are saying. :) Thank you. Very good to know!

Update on the rules update for everyone:

I had it pretty much written up at work, as I typically do, by about 1 am last night. At 1:25 am, I get a call from a lovely young man in Alabama who has decided that getting inebriated and calling his cable company so he can scream and curse at them because he cannot access his internet is a wonderful way to end his day. At 1:45 am, I convince said drunken Alabama man that the reason his computer says "no signal" is not because his internet is out, but because his monitor is not plugged into his PC. He curses at me some more for unspecified reasons, and then the call ends and I power down my computer, flustered by the call. At 2:10 am, I get home, and then realize that in the haste to leave I had not emailed the update to myself.

So the rules update is going to be delayed. I may have it tonight if it saved properly to my personal drive, but if I accidentally saved it to the C drive on that computer, it will be probably thursday or friday before I have that update, because I won't be back in the pod that has the computer that has the update on it until then.

Quote from: sparkletwist
That makes sense. I think a big part of it is that it is quite subjective-- the GM might think the clues are really obvious and if the players miss them it's their own fault, and play it that way... but the clues weren't actually that good, and the players missed them because the clues weren't that good. I mean, there's no real objective way to say one way or the other, but I think that since it's a game where the group is supposed to be on the same page and have fun, it's better to err on the side of the players getting to figure things out and be awesome.

That's very true, and I think I've spoiled in that regard as a player which has colored my views on them. Throughout most of my gaming experience, the person I've had DM for me the most is hugely in love with mysteries and thrillers, and that has translated to being excellent at running them for players. So the clues are always there and I never feel cheated by what's going on, which probably makes it seem easier than it is to do it "right."

I feel that "it's better to err on the side of the players getting to figure things out and be awesome" should be Sparkletwist's First Law of DMing, and really is an excellent rule for any DM to live by, with the only caveat I would add being "unless they prefer not to."

Quote from: LD
That sounds fair as long as the capture itself was not a gotcha, which seems to be exactly what you are saying. :) Thank you. Very good to know!

Oh, absolutely! There was a plan B for the shapeshifter - see, the way the plan was going to work was to have the character to be replaced get ambushed when they were out on a solo mission. The villains would be attempting to capture. However, if the ambushed hero won the fight, they would have gotten clues that hinted at the villain's true purpose, and it's entirely possible that this whole "replace heroes with shapeshifters" plot would have ended up being about how the villains kept trying and failing to actually accomplish that until they ended up getting captured themselves.

I believe strongly, as a DM, in fair play. I'm never, ever going to just be like "Oh, hah, your person gets captured because screw you, that's why." unless I've obtained advanced permission for doing that (either in a "Hey, this whole story works better if you get caught, you cool with that just happening or should I go with my plan B?" or if the player has said they like it when that kind of thing happens and doesn't mind it if I don't discuss it with them before hand.) Twists and surprises are great. Doing them at the expense of player agency without explicit permission from the player to deny them that agency? Not good at all.

To All:

Personally I'd prefer if you'd make a new post if you're responding to an message from me in game- otherwise I am more likely to miss it. It also bumps the thread, which makes the thread easier to find.

Thank you- I have seen your replies, Steerpike and HippopotamusDundee.

I can see merits to both approaches, LD. Xatan asked that "As additional messages are sent, please edit your original post for that week to include them. If the character limit is reached, then feel free to make a second or third or nth post as needed, but please keep your orders in the first post you make that week."

Quote from: LD
To All:

Personally I'd prefer if you'd make a new post if you're responding to an message from me in game- otherwise I am more likely to miss it. It also bumps the thread, which makes the thread easier to find.

Thank you- I have seen your replies, Steerpike and HippopotamusDundee.

Since we've already started the "Edit the existing post" method for this turn, I'd like to keep it that way at least for now. If there's a strong desire to change to a more typical "Just post things" method, we could discuss that for next turn, but it would drive me nuts to switch mid-turn. :P

Ah, did not see that Xathan had made that request. I still stand by my request though. Replies will be missed if they are not in new posts.

Quote from: LD
Ah, did not see that Xathan had made that request. I still stand by my request though. Replies will be missed if they are not in new posts.

Would it still work for you if people were to make new posts here to inform you?

That would work; it would not be as efficient, but it would work.

Added: Loco Lobos, Crusher, and SPYDER and the comic Mr. Jupiter to the Rogue's gallery.

Thanks!

Update:

I'm really sorry for the delay with the rules update. I was unable to recover the first draft, and then this weekend went to hell for me IRL. I'll be getting it out ASAP, and may push the due date back if players feel they need that because they need to decide on rules changes.

For those of you who are waiting for Base Customization Cost Changes, I can give those now:

All base customization options cost 200 reputation, with the exception of additional heroes being added to a Loose Confederation or upgrading heroes in a loose confederation to part of the "permanent roster", which is 100. (Keep in mind that adding heroes to a Loose Confederation does not increase your max number of heroes active at any one time,  which requires adding heroes the permanent roster - a total cost of 200.) However, every time a base customization option is taken, the cost increases by 100 (50 each for the Loose Confederation options). This should prevent "spamming" one option and make things like Mentor or Sidekick more appealing, because taking that has no impact on the cost of adding a brand new hero, and visa versa.

Additional Hero still can not be taken as part of the starting option for a base, to keep turn one from getting any busier than it already is.

Pushed the due date back to give the people who haven't had a chance to post yet time to post, and me to finish this rules update. :)

Yeah, I've been waiting on that a little bit before posting orders.

Quote from: TheMeanestGuest
Yeah, I've been waiting on that a little bit before posting orders.

I figured that would be a factor.

While the full rules update is still in progress (due to real life being a major down right now), I did get something for you, TMG:

Unparelled geniuses, the Mastermind orchestrates events from behind the scene on a very regular basis, manipulating friends and foe alike to achieve the end they desire. Although many masterminds are malicious individuals with greedy ends, the heroic mastermind is an expert at arranging fights to achieve the greater good. Of course, this focus on intellectual pursuits often leaves the mastermind physically vulnerable - but the trade offs are often worth the benefits.
Base Stats
[spoiler] [ooc]Mastermind

Melee: 5
Range: 4

Parry: 15
Dodge: 14

Attacks: Unarmed (Melee) 2 (DC 17, MS 3), Pistol (Ranged) 2 (DC 17, MS 3)

Toughness: 4
Resistance: 3
Will: 8

Awareness: 4
Capture: 2
Investigate: 6
Manipulate: 8
Media: 6
Occult: 4
Science: 4
Stealth: 0
Streetwise: 2
Tactics: 4

Powers, Gears, Specialties
All According to Plan: Events rarely surprise you. By spending a week of research time, you can roll manipulate, DC 16. If successful, then you can choose one of the following results:
An opponent gets information that leads them to where you want them to be (often into a trap)* (This option is opposed by your opponents manipulate check. If you fail to beat their check but still beat a DC 16, they do not fall for the trap but in avoiding your trap reveal some crucial information about their plans)
Another player gets a mission against the target of your choice.
Other players do not get missions about a target of your choice.

Controlled Leak: Make a media check, DC 16. If successful, you can plant information into the media's broadcasts, either subtly (Anonymous tip, inside source, etc), or overtly (Hijacking a broadcast, etc.) The majority of the population will believe it to be true.

Right Where I Want You: You can choose to fail a capture check against a particular foe. Unlike normal, they do not get a manipulate check to sense that you (or a teammate) wanted to be captured. The captured teammate gets a +2 bonus to all checks to escape capture, gather intel while captured, and plant a device that reveals their location.

Sherlock Fighting: After two rounds of combat, you get a +4 to attack rolls, +2 to both defenses, and the DC if your attacks increases by +4, now that you have observed your opponent's fighting style enough to know their weaknesses.[/ooc][/spoiler]

Okay, guys and girls, so here's the deal.

I bit off more than I can chew. A couple days after I posted the start threat, I had a major financial crisis that I've only recently got semi out from under. This triggered my anxiety something fierce, and since then the update to the game system I've been working on has become a convoluted mess as I make decisions based on "What is easiest to implement" or "what is going to upset the least number of players," and not "because this is a good idea."

For example, I realized the "Cost increase" method of base customization options was bad and finally tonight settled on a method of base customization I am semi-happy with, but it means that my options are "screw a couple players" or "give everyone but a couple players some extra customization options unless they decide to radically alter their team decisions." So my decision was "Say it's grandfathered in and that they don't have to pay the extra cost" which is not good design, it's lazy design based on fear, and would probably have caused the game to become a rickshaw mess that collapsed a few turns in because of balance issues.  This has been compounded by the looming deadline I gave you all and myself, and that same anxiety has also prevented me from responding to anyone's request for responses from their contacts and posting anything else I may want to post on the CBG because fear of looking like I'm not working on WWSUN (For example, Superbright and I have been PMing back and forth heavily about Casus Belli, and I'd like to write up and share that stuff with everyone)

This is the kind of situation that has, historically, lead me to vanish from the CBG and the internet as a whole for months at a time.

What I'm going to do (instead of running away as I typically do, because I'm not going to vanish like that again) is pause the due date. feel free to continue sending messages to each other, and I am going to continue working on the rules system as well as some other minor projects because I find those soothing. Once the rules update is finished, a new due date will be established that gives everyone time to make changes based on the rules update. I know it looks bad to go on a mini-hiatus before the first turn is even done, but this alleviates the pressure on me and allows me to give you all a balanced, proper rules system. I'm looking to have it done ASAP, but I'm not giving a due date this time to avoid finding myself circling the same trapped drain. The good news is, once the rules system is done, this kind of thing shouldn't be a problem anymore and the normal schedule can go on as originally planned, because I'll only have to worry about contact responses and then doing the turns, which is much less anxiety triggering.

Thank you all for understanding, and I appreciate your patience with me.

Take your time, don't worry about it. And definitely don't worry about making sloppy/pragmatic design decisions. I'm sure we can retcon stuff and roll with the punches. None of us have paid for this game, so you don't owe us anything.

In terms of screwing over a couple of players, what do you mean specifically? I can't speak for anyone else but we're so early in the game that I doubt any of us would have any issue with altering our customization options/archetypes. I'd be happy to rewrite characters or re-do my base or whatever.

Quote from: Steerpike
In terms of screwing over a couple of players, what do you mean specifically? I can't speak for anyone else but we're so early in the game that I doubt any of us would have any issue with altering our customization options/archetypes. I'd be happy to rewrite characters or re-do my base or whatever.

It's specifically impacts Loose Confederation, so it's a bit deeper than most. I'm still trying to find a good solution, but if not, plan B "everyone now gets 3 free base customization options, and each extra Loose Confederation hero is 1" (I name plans very literally) will go into effect, meaning the players that picked Loose Confederation can keep things exactly as is with no penalty, or can sub out one of their Loosely Affiliated heroes now and get two free base customization options now and pick up more later.

Quote from: SteerpikeTake your time, don't worry about it. And definitely don't worry about making sloppy/pragmatic design decisions. I'm sure we can retcon stuff and roll with the punches. None of us have paid for this game, so you don't owe us anything.

Thanks. :)

Quote from: Steerpike
In terms of screwing over a couple of players, what do you mean specifically? I can't speak for anyone else but we're so early in the game that I doubt any of us would have any issue with altering our customization options/archetypes. I'd be happy to rewrite characters or re-do my base or whatever.

It's specifically impacts Loose Confederation, so it's a bit deeper than most. I'm still trying to find a good solution, but if not, plan B "everyone now gets 3 free base customization options, and each extra Loose Confederation hero is 1" (I name plans very literally) will go into effect, meaning the players that picked Loose Confederation can keep things exactly as is with no penalty, or can sub out one of their Loosely Affiliated heroes now and get two free base customization options now and pick up more later.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me, though I'm not Loosely Affiliated so perhaps I don't have the best perspective.

I don't know how long Steerpike was working on the mechanics for Underdeep before he started it, but unless you naturally secrete perfectly-balanced systems like sparkletwist, a month seems like a pretty tight schedule to go from a bare-bones concept to a fully-ready game. I'm personally fine with the option of giving everyone three customization options and making Loose Confederation worth more because it's a pretty potent option that gives you a more flexible team right out of the gate and the potential to get two permanent members for the price of one.

Quote from: Superbrightunless you naturally secrete perfectly-balanced systems like sparkletwist

:suprised:

But seriously. I agree with everyone else. You should take your time, and don't feel any pressure, because there isn't any. :)

Quote from: SuperbrightI don't know how long Steerpike was working on the mechanics for Underdeep before he started it

Quite awhile. And "balanced" is not an adjective I would use to describe Underdeep!

Re:

QuoteFor example, I realized the "Cost increase" method of base customization options was bad and finally tonight settled on a method of base customization I am semi-happy with, but it means that my options are "screw a couple players" or "give everyone but a couple players some extra customization options unless they decide to radically alter their team decisions." So my decision was "Say it's grandfathered in and that they don't have to pay the extra cost" which is not good design, it's lazy design based on fear, and would probably have caused the game to become a rickshaw mess that collapsed a few turns in because of balance issues.  This has been compounded by the looming deadline I gave you all and myself, and that same anxiety has also prevented me from responding to anyone's request for responses from their contacts and posting anything else I may want to post on the CBG because fear of looking like I'm not working on WWSUN (For example, Superbright and I have been PMing back and forth heavily about Casus Belli, and I'd like to write up and share that stuff with everyone)

An idea about base customization revision:

What about:

[ic]
-Reputation operates in reputation bands. It does not disappear. It just keeps going up, like experience. Players can compare their reputations as a measure of their general 'success' and bragging rights. Higher reputation unlocks certain bonuses to be available to be taken/spent.
-Wealth can be spent.

This differentiates the types of resources.

Then:

Loose Confederation - Your team is less of a cohesive unit, and more of a, well, loose confederation of individuals. You add two additional heroes to your roster, but your team cap is still kept at 4 heroes.
Effects.
(1) Add 2 additional heroes to your roster.
(2) Gain Reputation at 75% the normal rate because you do not have a cohesive branding- your group has its private interests which may not always work towards the brand and which may dilute the branding power.
(3) A loose confederation, however, provides flexibility. Each week, you choose which 4 members are active (or 5 or 6 if you have unlocked that number of members).
(4) If you unlock the ability to have a roster of 5 heroes, you gain an additional Loose Confederation member. (but still need to pay the 100 wealth per member).
(5) When you unlock 6 heroes, and then 8 (every even number of heroes), you gain 2 additional Loose Confederation members (but still need to pay the 100 wealth per member).
(6) 10% chance to have a "Focus" week where 1 of your confederation must be played or negatives occur. So, eliminate the complication where they have crises based around the extra confederation members- or make it not a *negative* but another interesting feature- you as a GM may decide that in week 4, member X needs to be played- so you tell the player that Member X has this crisis, do you want to confront it, or risk losing him to prison and reputation, or if this happens twice, falling out of the confederation. (e.g. only have that issue come up every 5 weeks or so).
[/ic]

The below wealth estimates are probably out of line. proper amounts will depend on how much you plan to divvy out. I could probably brainstorm more but I just posited a few items from the top of my head.

[ic=Costs]
Everyone starts with 10 Reputation and 10 Wealth, AND they each get to choose 2 of the below customization expenditures for free at character creation.

[ic]Basic Customization Expenditures[/ic]

Loose Confederation: (See above Description) 2 initial extra members.
-100 wealth cost (100 for each of the two initial new members) for integrating computer networks and other ancillary costs to maintain your network above and beyond the costs that others pay for each additional loose confederation member (you get 2 to start if you take this at level 1). If you take this after the creation
-100 Reputation to unlock this unless it is taken as the free option.

Advanced Training Room: Your Training facilities go beyond the normal ones used by most teams, and provide full on holography displays and tactical readouts. You can spend a week in training against a particular threat that you have already researched. At the end of it, make a tactics roll using the highest of all members present. If it beats a DC 15, all members of the team that participated in the training get a +2 bonus to all attack rolls and both defensive scores the next time they face that threat.
-500 Wealth

Advanced Security System: The basic security system that comes with most bases is really just a more advanced version of home security. The Advanced Security System, however, comes with several non-lethal deterrents to protect against attacks on the base, and can alert the team of threats with enough warning to give them a chance to gain a surprise round against the intruders.
-500 Wealth

Research AI: The Research AI is an advanced artificial intelligence that assists with research tasks. When used by anyone with a research skill, the AI provides a +2 bonus to any research checks. Even without someone actively working with it, it can make checks on its own with a +3, though the AI takes a bit longer to sort though what is important and not on its own, taking two full weeks to complete research tasks solo. 500 Wealth.
-500 Wealth

Gadgeterium Unlocks the ability to construct bizarre and wicked gadgets.
Options during use: (4 weeks to add +1 to a weapon's damage) (4 weeks to add +1 to an armor's defense) (5 weeks to create a special item)
-500 Wealth

Laboratory: You have a Lab capable of handling scientific, forensic or mystic pursuits (choose one). When using your Lab, you can do research much faster, allowing you to do research on the same turn you act, although you still will not get the results of that research until the next week (So if you're researching Baron Death, you can take a week to research him AND make a media apperance. You could also attack him that week, but you wouldn't gain the benefits of the research against him). This upgrade can be taken multiple team. Each time, choose a different focus for it.
-500 Wealth

Mentor: You gain a mentor who helps your team learn and grow. A mentor is a separate character that does not participate in combat - it could be a retired hero, or the "Creator" if your team, or some other role - but it does provide you access to an individual who can do tasks around base on his own. A mentor has a +4 in 2 of Science, Occult, Investigation, or Tactics. The wealth represents some money you set aside to protect the Mentor since association with you can tend to be dangerous for others' health.
-100 Reputation & 100 wealth (1st Mentor)
-200 Reputation & 100 wealth (2nd Mentor)
-500 Reputation & 300 wealth (3rd mentor)

Contacts:: Gain an additional contact, like the contacts rules for police contact (police, military, etc.) They can help ('fix' things for you in their area of expertise from time to time, GMs discretion (max 2 per turn). The wealth expenditures are general expenditures that happen in becoming noticed by the Contact's orbit. Eg. you buy regular cops coffee. You take the Captain out to a play.
-100 Reputation & 100 wealth (1st)
-200 Reputation & 100 wealth (2nd)
-500 Reputation & 200 wealth (3rd)
-1000 Reputation & 200 wealth (4th)
-1500 Reputation & 300 wealth (5th)
-2500 Reputation & 500 wealth (6th)

[ic]Advanced Customization Expenditures
These may only be taken after character creation.[/ic]

Additional Hero: Add 1 additional hero.  May take in place of Advanced Hero but NOT in addition to it.
-50 wealth
-400 reputation for 1st
-800 reputation for 2d
-1800 reputation for 3rd
-2500 reputation for 4th

Advanced Hero: May take in place of Additional Hero but NOT in addition to it for each 'level up' (one could take Additional hero for 1st advance, then advanced hero's 2nd advance, then additional hero's 3rd advance (but not the 2nd advance)). This option exists to balance out the benefit of additional heroes for players who do not want large teams.
Advance several of your heroes' skills. (codify the amounts later to balance it).
-500 reputation for 1st time
-1000 reputation for 2d time
-1500 reputation for 3rd time
-2000 reputation for 4th time.

Additional Super Jet: By default, a team starts with one Super Jet. This customization options gives them a second one, allowing them to respond to two locations on the globe in a single week!
-1000 wealth per jet.
-500 reputation to unlock.

Teleporter Move instantly to another teleporter! Useless unless you have allies who also build these amazing creations.
-2000 wealth
-500 reputation to unlock.
-Advanced Research AI or Mastermind special project (something like this).

Advanced Research Laboratory
-1000 wealth
-Laboratory (Scientific)
-500 reputation to unlock (attract scientists) or Mastermind stays at home to construct for 5 weeks.

Space-Jet: As the super-jet, but is capable of orbital flight or even flight to nearby worlds! This changes an existing Super-Jet, which still must be purchased normally.
-500 wealth (for the upgrade)
-Gadgeterium
-3 Weeks Development (2 weeks if spend 1000 wealth)







[/ic]

Absolutely no pressure at all, but any thoughts on when this might start up again? Anything we could do to contribute?

Quote from: Steerpike
Absolutely no pressure at all, but any thoughts on when this might start up again? Anything we could do to contribute?

No pressure taken. :)

Right now I'm looking at having some kind of update, even if it's just a status update, by the beginning of June. My current work schedule is killing me, and I haven't had the energy to do much on it for a bit.

As far as things you all could do...at the moment, not that I can think of, because my brain has gotten scrambled. :P I'll get that together and have a more concrete answer by the update date.