The Campaign Builder's Guild

My friend and I were discussing the downward spiral of humanity taking place around us.  The main problem is the utterly self-serving attitude of the people in today's society.
Pride--There seems to be a certain arrogance that permeates society today.  People look down their noses at other people, convinced of their own superiority.  Sometimes they have reason to, most often they don't.  Yet pride continues to show its face everywhere.  It leads people to think others beneath their aid, and beneath their consideration.  It causes underestimation and suppression.  If those seen as beneath us (potentially everyone) are deemed to have nothing of value to say, then no change can come.
Apathy--People just don't care.  They don't care about themselves, they don't care about each other; quite often they don't care about much of anything.  Apathy pervades my society, and I presume that it is similarly present elsewhere.  Around me this is manifest in the students that attend my high school act without regard to the consequences of their actions because they could care less what those consequences are.  
Emo--Emo is the dark brooding over one's imaginary tragedy.  That is, at least, what Emo has become.  It started as a form of music, and developed into a subculture.  But the subculture is taking over.  The trend of those who view themselves as the ultimate tragic figures wallowing the deepest misery over quite often the smallest of things has grown ridiculously out of hand.  "Emo Poetry" expresses the perceived torment of an individual, under the name of art.  But the definition of "Art" can only be taken so far with literature.  There comes a point at which the artful rendering of personal tragedy gives way to whining.  That point has come.

So we seek to begin the revolution.  An end to the wallowing in self-pity.  An end to the masquerade.  We can change the world with words and give way to a society that is hopeful again.  It starts with Emo.  From there we move on to fight the evils of society with that most powerful of human tools.  Words.

Ã,¡Viva La Revolución!

From what I understand, this 'Emo poetry' is just an outgrowth of the 'Emo' musical movement; i'd go so far to say that like it's parent movement, it will only last until the young - often the first to promulgate and popularize many such trends - have found another vehicle with which to theme their poetry and deal with personal (whether it be perceived incorrectly or not) turmoil.

But you seem to be suggesting we actively counteract that trend by producing works of poetry composed with different, possibly less self-absorbed themes or subjects in mind. That, I can get into.

P.S. - I'm not an expert at musical genres - if I was wrong in the above statement, tell me. Also, if this thread is less serious that it appears to be, than i'm okay with that too.

Edit: And of course, I take too long to post. Ah well...i'll have a poem to contribute on the weekend, even though poetry is not my forte (it's short fiction).

Quote from: Raymond Luxury YachtFrom what I understand, this 'Emo poetry' is just an outgrowth of the 'Emo' musical movement; i'd go so far to say that like it's parent movement, it will only last until the young - often the first to promulgate and popularize many such trends - have found another vehicle with which to theme their poetry and deal with personal (whether it be perceived incorrectly or not) turmoil.

But you seem to be suggesting we actively counteract that trend by producing works of poetry composed with different, possibly less self-absorbed themes or subjects in mind. That, I can get into.

P.S. - I'm not an expert at musical genres - if I was wrong in the above statement, tell me. Also, if this thread is less serious that it appears to be, than i'm okay with that too.

Edit: And of course, I take too long to post. Ah well...i'll have a poem to contribute on the weekend, even though poetry is not my forte (it's short fiction).

Hey, I said "Literature."  I don't mind if you'd rather write a short fiction.  
But I think you get it.  The purpose at present is to counter-act the emo trend of making a tragedy out of everyday life.  The point is to both provide a positive alternative to Emo and to illuminate frivolity of the melodramatic Emo core.

I tend to disagree. I couldn't cope with reality if I didn't dismiss it as meaningless.

I see emo as sucking, but not because of its apathy. I see it sucking for its angst, and the trend of making things more (rather than less) important than they really are. I don't really see pride in anything at all. If anything, I see a horde of niche-products advertising by associating products with identity (see hot topic).

I mean, I could understand when lust and envy and gluttony were just greed in different masks, but I should have figured that wouldn't be enough for greed. No, now greeds='s gone and gobbled up pride as well. The bastard.

It's up to us to protect our wrath and sloth from the all consuming greed!

...Or something. I think I just forgot what I was talking about.

Quote from: beejazzI tend to disagree. I couldn't cope with reality if I didn't dismiss it as meaningless.

I see emo as sucking, but not because of its apathy. I see it sucking for its angst, and the trend of making things more (rather than less) important than they really are. I don't really see pride in anything at all. If anything, I see a horde of niche-products advertising by associating products with identity (see hot topic).

I mean, I could understand when lust and envy and gluttony were just greed in different masks, but I should have figured that wouldn't be enough for greed. No, now greeds='s gone and gobbled up pride as well. The bastard.

It's up to us to protect our wrath and sloth from the all consuming greed!

...Or something. I think I just forgot what I was talking about.

Well, ok, I went into it more general and then focused on one thing and my examples may not fit as well as I intended them to.  Pride I tried to say was a problem of sorts, but then that that wasn't really the problem with Emo, per say.  It is still ego, because it is still the focus on the self, but not the inflated ego of pride.  
So maybe I'll have to edit that first post.
Apathy and Pride are two problems, both of which are intended to be dealt with in the Revolution, but the immediate goal is Emo, and Emo is not really either.

Quote from: beejazzI tend to disagree. I couldn't cope with reality if I didn't dismiss it as meaningless.

I see emo as sucking, but not because of its apathy. I see it sucking for its angst, and the trend of making things more (rather than less) important than they really are. I don't really see pride in anything at all. If anything, I see a horde of niche-products advertising by associating products with identity (see hot topic).

I mean, I could understand when lust and envy and gluttony were just greed in different masks, but I should have figured that wouldn't be enough for greed. No, now greeds='s gone and gobbled up pride as well. The bastard.

It's up to us to protect our wrath and sloth from the all consuming greed!

...Or something. I think I just forgot what I was talking about.

lol beejazz im impressed with the rant! although i would agree to a point, I think we should keep our minds open to all genres of literature. even though emo got so out of hand there had to be a band named "not another emo band," my very shallow experience with "emo" literature would have to say it is a seemingly modernized growth of elizabethan lovejoy poetry with a sad, dramatic twist.

so, i think this brings us back to the deterioration of modern thought and literacy (if you could go that far). why would you have to add that twist? why not stick to the classic sonnets and balladsof shakespeare and spenser if not to water it down to popular media?

[ooc]

Quote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumÃ,¡Viva La Revolución!

haha my friend has a poster of che guevera with that on it, im trying to get my hands on one[/ooc]
sorry if that was random ;), my above post was on topic

I suppose I should get in on this too... Not my best work, I'll admit.

I've got something coming.  Not a poem, mind you, but I think it'll get the point across just as well.

I have no personal problem with so-called emo literature, per se.  I'll stay well away from it.  As Luxury Yacht noted, it will probably pass with this generation (vehicle for the angst-driven, dissilusioned consumer generation that it is).  I do have issue with the quality and originality of such works (I get hung up over aesthetics).  Narcissism and neurosis are all valid muses, but in "emo" there is no beauty.

But I will not condemn it by virtue of its cause.  I empathise entirely with my peers who feel alienated by the world around me.  The desire to reach out in some kind of expression - any kind - is well understood.  I will, however, condemn it for its bleakness, like the worst of the Absurdists, whose art degenerates into a vicious return of self-perpetuating darkness.  Emo does not aspire to transcend this darkness.  It is like deep melancholy: one feeds upon that terrible feeling to engender it further in their hearts.  Thus, they reach out to the wrong places.

Worse still, it is a trend, and I am saddened to think that contempt for the world might manifest as popular culture.  That Emo compels youths to despair (and a laughably manufactured despair at that) by virtue of their perceiving despair in others and thinking that good, is its worse trait.

If art is expression, than emo may be art.  Just art that is unhealthy for the soul.

Oh yeah, and the last line of that poem is the shiz.

Quote from: Salacious AngelI have no personal problem with so-called emo literature, per se.  I'll stay well away from it.  As Luxury Yacht noted, it will probably pass with this generation (vehicle for the angst-driven, dissilusioned consumer generation that it is).  I do have issue with the quality and originality of such works (I get hung up over aesthetics).  Narcissism and neurosis are all valid muses, but in "emo" there is no beauty.

But I will not condemn it by virtue of its cause.  I empathise entirely with my peers who feel alienated by the world around me.  The desire to reach out in some kind of expression - any kind - is well understood.  I will, however, condemn it for its bleakness, like the worst of the Absurdists, whose art degenerates into a vicious return of self-perpetuating darkness.  Emo does not aspire to transcend this darkness.  It is like deep melancholy: one feeds upon that terrible feeling to engender it further in their hearts.  Thus, they reach out to the wrong places.

Worse still, it is a trend, and I am saddened to think that contempt for the world might manifest as popular culture.  That Emo compels youths to despair (and a laughably manufactured despair at that) by virtue of their perceiving despair in others and thinking that good, is its worse trait.

If art is expression, than emo may be art.  Just art that is unhealthy for the soul.

Oh yeah, and the last line of that poem is the shiz.

If it is my poem you are referring to, thank you.  I thought you'd like it.

And as to Emo, we are condemning what it is, not what it could be.

I'd never thought of art as being something that could be unhealthy.  Perhaps that is why I haven't really considered it art. *shrug*  It probably will pass, but we hope to speed that process.

And in any case, Emo isn't the only target.  It's gotta start somewhere . . .

Quote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumI'd never thought of art as being something that could be unhealthy.  Perhaps that is why I haven't really considered it art. *shrug*  It probably will pass, but we hope to speed that process.

Like rap and a few other things that I hate in this generation, I don't want them to pass completely. I want to be able to sit back and laugh at 90 year-old gangsters play their rap...

but emo, right....

Haha.  It's particularly bad when you're the only black kid in your highschool, and rather than consciously deride you, all the other students hold this unquashable delusion that you're a gangsta, and think that's awesome.  That's not awesome.  It's an insult.  If there's one Western culture that has successfully turned self-limitation and self-loathing into an artform, it's rap culture.  I used to wish those kids would just start throwing racial epithets at me so that they had no cause for surprise when I socked them in the jaw.

As it was, they were surprised...

The worst thing about rap - for me - is not the misogynism, or the glorification of violence, but rather the confusion of those artists when they wonder why the world outside their ghettos does not respect them.  Claiming God's on their side when they rise to the top of the criminal underworld (and top or not, the undwerorld's still the UNDERworld)?  Crying for salvation then hurling hot lead into children's bedrooms on the impetus on some juvenile fued?

To speak nothing of pop music!

Quote from: Salacious AngelHaha.  It's particularly bad when you're the only black kid in your highschool, and rather than consciously deride you, all the other students hold this unquashable delusion that you're a gangsta, and think that's awesome.  That's not awesome.  It's an insult.  If there's one Western culture that has successfully turned self-limitation and self-loathing into an artform, it's rap culture.  I used to wish those kids would just start throwing racial epithets at me so that they had no cause for surprise when I socked them in the jaw.

As it was, they were surprised...

The worst thing about rap - for me - is not the misogynism, or the glorification of violence, but rather the confusion of those artists when they wonder why the world outside their ghettos does not respect them.  Claiming God's on their side when they rise to the top of the criminal underworld (and top or not, the undwerorld's still the UNDERworld)?  Crying for salvation then hurling hot lead into children's bedrooms on the impetus on some juvenile fued?

To speak nothing of pop music!

So we're mobilizing against rap music as well?

Quote from: Stargate525

Quote from: Salacious AngelHaha.  It's particularly bad when you're the only black kid in your highschool, and rather than consciously deride you, all the other students hold this unquashable delusion that you're a gangsta, and think that's awesome.  That's not awesome.  It's an insult.  If there's one Western culture that has successfully turned self-limitation and self-loathing into an artform, it's rap culture.  I used to wish those kids would just start throwing racial epithets at me so that they had no cause for surprise when I socked them in the jaw.

As it was, they were surprised...

The worst thing about rap - for me - is not the misogynism, or the glorification of violence, but rather the confusion of those artists when they wonder why the world outside their ghettos does not respect them.  Claiming God's on their side when they rise to the top of the criminal underworld (and top or not, the undwerorld's still the UNDERworld)?  Crying for salvation then hurling hot lead into children's bedrooms on the impetus on some juvenile fued?

To speak nothing of pop music!

So we're mobilizing against rap music as well?

Sure, why not?

But one must always keep clear in one's mind the reason for opposition, for too often does aversion endure beyond the memory of the thing opposed.  Thus would our own goodness be consumed by our loathing, and we would become the image of that very thing.

I personally hesitate to condemn rap outright.  Sure, the most popular and best selling form of rap, gangster rap, tends to glorify violence and objectify women, but I don't agree that all rap is that way and that all rap should be gone forever.

I personally don't listen to very much rap, but I do get pretty close.  Listen to the lyrics of Zack de la Rocha, front man of Rage Against the Machine.  He quite obviously raps (to the backing of a metal band, rather than a DJ), but  he doesn't glorify any of the issues why you all said "Rap is Evil," except to satirize them.  Take the song Revolver.  He criticizes domestic violence, specifically pointing out the arrogance of it.  Lyrics such as: "His spit is worth more than her work / Pass the purse to the pugilist ... Hey revolver, don't mothers make good fathers?" don't really seem to be promoting misogyny or the loss of family values.

I say don't generalize about anything.  Period.

Here are my thoughts...

You live with the wool pulled over your eyes, and it feels so soft and warm you don't really care too much.  CNN, or whoever you get your â,¬Å"unbiasedâ,¬Â news from, shows you someone dying somewhere else from whatever it is this week: war, starvation, disease, genocide, whatever.  You'll stand up and say, â,¬Å"This is horrible, somebody should do something.â,¬Â  Then, you'll sit back down.  That is your life.  You are too afraid to simply do something, and it's starting to show.

â,¬Å"Stress can be defined as the sum of physical and mental responses to an unacceptable disparity between real or imagined personal experience and personal expectations. By this definition, stress is a response which includes both physical and mental components.â,¬Â

â,¬Å"Mental responses to stress include adaptive (â,¬Å"goodâ,¬Â) stress, anxiety, and depression. Where stress enhances function, either physical or mental, it may be considered good stress. However, if stress persists and is of excessive degree, it eventually leads to a need for resolution, which may lead either to anxious (escape) or depressive (withdrawal) behavior.â,¬Â


People seem to like to avoid confrontation.  However, this really only holds true when you are not in a superior position to the person, or, to a lesser degree, when you are in an equal position to the other person.  Sometimes, such positions can be very easy to define, like a boss and a subordinate.  Your boss has had a bad day.  You come in to work late.  Ordinarily, he wouldn't care, but today he chews you out.  Now you are having a bad day.  

Other times, these positions are muddied, like a worker and a customer.  You get off work, still upset with your boss for chewing you out.  You go to a fast food place for dinner.  The guy working at the counter makes an honest mistake and screws your order up.  You could let it go and just deal with it, but most people don't.  You could let him know politely that he made a mistake, but not today.  You're worn out, stressed out, and this is the last straw.  You chew the guy out because your double cheeseburger without onions had onions.

You let it get to you, in the worst way.  And, as much as you'd like to, you can't deny that it felt good.  It feels good to exert power.  Who cares it if was at someone else's expense?  If they don't like it, well, too bad.

â,¬Å"I tagged a first-timer one night at fight club.  That Saturday night, a young guy with an angel's face came to his first fight club, and I tagged him for a fight.  That's the rule.  If it's your first night at fight club, you have to fight.  I knew that so I tagged him because the insomnia was on again, and I was in a mood to destroy something beautiful.â,¬Â

â,¬Å"Since most of my face never gets a chance to heal, I've got nothing to lose in the looks department.  My boss, at work, he asked me what I was doing about the hole through my cheek that never heals.  When I drink coffee, I told him, I put two fingers over the hole so it won't leak.â,¬Â

â,¬Å"There's a sleeper hold that gives somebody just enough air to stay awake, and that night at fight club, I hit our first-timer and hammered that beautiful mister angel face, first with bony knuckles of my fist like a pounding molar, and then with the knotted tight butt of my fist after my knuckles were raw from his teeth stuck through his lips.  Then the kid fell through my arms in a heap.â,¬Â

â,¬Å"Tyler told me later that he'd never seen me destroy something so completely.â,¬Â


People are starting to break from the stress, though.  And not just when it's to someone lower than them.  Take road rage.  Our guy from before, still mad after a bad day at work and, in his mind, a wholly incompetent fast food place, gets cut off by Average Joe.  Average Joe was on his cell phone, not really paying attention, and simply cut it a little close.  Our angry salary man gets upset, and tailgates Average Joe.  They both cut off Average Jill.  She gets upset, and we now have the three car pileup on the seven o'clock news.  None of these people are in a position any different than the others.  They're all just random drivers, on a random road.  Getting cut off, while somewhat dangerous, is nothing to get that upset about.

Let's take this in another direction.  Let's say Average Jill calms down a bit before she gets to her exit.  She decides it isn't worth it, and goes home.  Our salary man, however, is still angry at Average Joe.  They both get off at the same exit.  Average Joe gets to the red light first, with our salary man right behind.  Average Joe finishes his cell phone conversation, as our salary man walks up to his window.  Average Joe looks over to see an angry looking man standing outside his door.  He rolls down his window to see what the problem is, but he can't even get a word in before our salary man gives him the tongue-lashing of his life.  Average Joe tries to be apologetic, but the only thing that gets our salary man back in his car is the light change.  Now four people are having a bad day because one person took his stress out on someone else.

What did they gain from this?  A short feeling of catharsis.  And putting another person down.  A great way to live, right?   A positive feedback system is where a system responds to change in the same direction or manner as the change.  Stress, in societal terms, is usually a positive feedback system.  You get stressed out, you usually stress some one else out.  It feeds off of itself.

People don't get that this builds up until you break.  When you break, you get release, but in the worst way.  Don't let it build up.  Ignore the guy yelling at you from outside your car, he has road rage.  Behind that, he's stressed because nothing is going his way.  He got cut off trying to drive home after work and dinner.  The kid at the fast food place screwed his order up.  His boss was an ass because he had a bad day.

â,¬Å"Fear is a basic human emotion... [that] occurs during the manifestation of a real or perceived attack on the system, its evolutionary purpose being to incite the system to react. Fear also can be described as a feeling of extreme dislike towards certain conditions, objects, people, or situations such as: fear of darkness, fear of ghosts, etc. Personal fear varies extremely in degree from mild caution to extreme phobia and paranoia. Fears may be a factor within a larger social network, wherein personal fears are synergetically compounded as mass hysteria.â,¬Â


Everybody knows fear.  Knows what scares them.  Maybe a loud noise that you weren't expecting.  Or being on a ledge high up.  Or maybe not so high up.  Everyone gets scared sometimes.  Fear can be used.  It can coerce people.  When someone holds a gun up to your head and demands that you give them all your money, there are three typical reactions.  The main one that most humans will take is a hysterical reaction.  They'll freeze up.  They'll cry and plead not to be shot.  Maybe they'll piss themselves.  Maybe they'll try to run away.  The second-most common is to simply give into the demands.  You aren't hysterical, but you're not stupid either.  There's a gun to your head.  It's probably a good idea to do most anything whoever is holding the gun says.  These two are the so-called â,¬Å"flightâ,¬Â response to fear.  The least common reaction, one that usually has to be trained into people, is to fight back.  You get the gun so it's line of fire is away from you, and whatever you do, you don't let it's line of fire back on to you.  This is the so-called â,¬Å"fightâ,¬Â response to fear.

But this isn't the only way fear is used.  We live, every day, under some kind of fear.  And now there are visible reminders of this fear.  Many cars and homes have alarm systems.  Most people who can afford a car or house alarm live in neighborhoods where the crime rate is very low.  But, if you ask them, it is very important that they have an alarm.  You never know in this kind of neighborhood when something might happen.

Every day the media helps remind us that we need to be afraid.  They show us all the bad stuff that happens all over the world.  Some of them even can do it instantly, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week.  And if you ask them, these are the only important stories.  They say that nobody wants to hear about how a teenager helps out an old lady every week with her groceries.  Or about the parents who work two jobs each to send their kids to school.  Nobody thinks that stuff is important... right?

And the government does it's job too.  We pay taxes, we should get our fear-return on investment.  They even color-coded it to make it easy for us.  You better be careful today, I heard the color went from orange-red with more orange to red-orange today.  It just became a little more likely that something bad might happen somewhere, at sometime, in the foreseeable future.  They must get some great information to predict things like that, I'll bet.

In short, we now exist in a culture of both justified and manufactured fear.

When is the last time you talked to your neighbor?  How about the person two doors down?  When is the last time your neighborhood, apartment, or whatever had a party for everybody?  When is the last time you said â,¬Å"Hiâ,¬Â to a perfect stranger and they didn't give you a weird look?  Are you yourself ever suspicious of strangers?  The common answers to these questions are a little disconcerting.

If you have a front porch, how often do you use it?  I'll bet not very often.  Is it right at the sidewalk, or is it far away?  The richer you are, usually, the farther it is away from the sidewalk.  How about the distance between your house and your neighbor's house?  Aside from condos and apartments, there is a very obvious trend here.  Row homes and town homes, generally places for the lower and middle classes, are right next to one another.  As houses go further up on the property scale, so does the space between them.  I lived in a town home.  My neighbors were just on the other side of two walls.  Richer people might have 3 or 5 meters in between their homes.

In short, we now exist in a culture of isolation.


To be continued...

Quote from: Salacious AngelBut one must always keep clear in one's mind the reason for opposition, for too often does aversion endure beyond the memory of the thing opposed.  Thus would our own goodness be consumed by our loathing, and we would become the image of that very thing.

It's not going to be easy to win you over, is it? ;) I like that.  You consistently display your intelligence.  You hae a very good point.  We should not lose sight of the reasons and be sure that, if rap were to be included as a target, there is a good reason for it.  Perhaps we should hold off for now and focus on Emo.  As to the reasoning, you yourself articulated the points as well as any of us for opposing it.  The revolution continues!

I am in agreeance on the generalisation remark.  In truth, the rapper Nas is one of my favourite artists (sounds a little like "some of my best friends ar black", doesn't it?).  I would never condemn a movement outright, for in truth most have noble intentions.  It is of great importance to find those intentions and amplify them, ridding oneself of the illness that is inspired by its less savoury parts.

That is to say that style, more often than not, is an innocent thing.  It is its use in the presentation of content that proves a worry.

Interesting post, limetom.  I will confess it is no news to me, but it is always of use to have such truths reinforced.

You know what?  Having thought it over, I find no need for revolution.  I see no danger in this "pop-maudlin" craze, nor, ultimately, in the folly of our ghetto brothers.  What better revolution is there than to shine our passions brighter than the gloomy half-light of those who would defame their own existence?  And that is no revolution at all, but "merely" an affirmation.

Désirent ardemment la vie de phase

Quote from: Salacious AngelYou know what?  Having thought it over, I find no need for revolution.  I see no danger in this "pop-maudlin" craze, nor, ultimately, in the folly of our ghetto brothers.  What better revolution is there than to shine our passions brighter than the gloomy half-light of those who would defame their own existence?  And that is no revolution at all, but "merely" an affirmation.

Désirent ardemment la vie de phase

Well, even taking such actions as to merelhy shine one's passions brighter is to join the revolt against apathy, if nothing else.  

In the Netherlands we have a development in music usually called "Nederhop" (Dutch hiphop). I'm not really into that, but I know of this song called "Zelfrespect" (respect for self) which is precisely about the themes the OP brought up. I'd find a songtext and post it, but unfortunately it's in Dutch. It seems somewhat appropriate so here are some rough translations of some lines:

Everybody in your surrounding seems so happy, so you think it's your own fault, you think you're the only one who feels bad, and that you must deserve that for some reason. But this is really a matter of selfrespect.

When someone wants to cheer you up you shy away.

You think you're the only one with feelings.

You need to work on your self-conscience.
You'll never find someone if you can't love yourself.
Self-respect is the key to success.
So arm yourself against insecurity and stress.
You are your only enemy.
Negative thinking is tearing you up.
Listen to the advice of a friend.
Convince yourself you deserve better.

Don't talk bullshit like "you don't get it".
That I've never taken drugs doesn't mean I've never felt as bad as you.
That I never attempted suicide doesn't mean I never thought of it, but I always try to solve my problems instead of running from them.
The best solution is rarely the easiest.

Don't pretend you're the only one.

QuoteEverybody in your surrounding seems so happy, so you think it's your own fault, you think you're the only one who feels bad, and that you must deserve that for some reason. But this is really a matter of selfrespect.

If I had a penny for every time one of the many emo kids at my old high school showed that they believed like that, well... I'd have a mol of pennies. An example was this friend of mine. She was a hardcore emo listener, and a closet lesbian, too afraid to come out about it even though people really liked her for the most part. She eventually told me that she was (and I was one of the few who knew). Later on, she had a tough emotional experience that I won't elaborate on that got her revved up and caused her to open up about a lot of her problems and troubles she was having. What was more interesting was that I had previously in my life experienced a lot of the same troubles with my parents, friends, and goals. When I told her I understood, however, she grew extremely frustrated at the idea. Seems emos would prefer that people don't understand them no matter how simple or complex something is, so that they have something to complain about.

I'm totally for the anti-emo movement. If there are two things that I despise more than anything else, they're the depressing "I hate the world because the world hates me" emo dogma and the similar, equally depressing and perhaps more overdone death metal/black metal/whatever you want to call it. If you want to listen to music that expresses how you feel when you're down and experiencing teenage troubles, listen to country, rock, pop, or anything else. A genre doesn't need to be made specifically for it.

More on this later.

I get a very bad feeling when I read this thread. I won't bother to quote, but it seems like some of what this "revolution" is about is attacking other people. Now I'm wondering whether this is justified at all. I don't think that the ideas presented in the first post are super healthy, but be sure that you understand what you criticize.

The best example of this, in my mind, is how limetom pointed out how apathy is a very good thing in our society. Apathy is a shield to use against violent accusations or judgments, for if we were empathetic with every angry soul we met, some days would end up very poor indeed. Instead, what should be avoided is the habitual overdose of apathy, where it becomes natural to block out the good and the bad. Be sure that while I oppose the overuse of apathy, I'm not going to claim it is always a bad thing or attack the people who have such a problem.

Back again to emo. I think we've got to understand why emo exists. After all, nothing is done without reason, so there must be something that is gained through such a behavior.

Emo, in my mind consists of the artistic style of melancholy brooding, the social niche that developed out of such art, and the title which is applied to someone who is seen as being a member of such a niche.

Firstly, many people who I have heard called "emo" have serious emotional issues. I think we can all discount the person who is emotionally scarred as NOT being emo, because they have a serious injury rather than a perceived or fabricated one.

The emo culture is the next target to understand. I think that it is once more, important to understand the motivations of the members of such a group. Most of these individuals are youths who feel alienated or attacked by society. The underlying purpose of such a group becomes clear when what these youths accomplish is a feeling of acceptance and a freedom from loneliness. Is it then wise to attack such individuals? Clearly the environment in which they exist is detrimental to their greater happiness, but the problem is a lack of comfort on a personal level. If you really want to help remove the emo culture, you need to figure out some way for each of these people to be happy without needing to come together in a group bound by pain.

Lastly, there is the question of whether the artistic side is damaging to society. I say it is not. Art needs to have comedy and tragedy, and if self-expression through melancholy art helps a person, good for them. It would hardly look good to damn the presenter of ideas for "corrupting" the viewer. It is each persons choice to accept or reject ideas presented to them.

 :2cents:

Personally, I don't see what limetom described as apathy.  What limetom described was more of a conscious decision not to let something get to you.  It's quite healthy to be able to say that just because someone else is having a bad day doesn't mean you have to too.  

I define apathy as the dull and complete lack of care, interest, and initiative.  Apathy is not when you decide not to get angry.  Apathy is when you don't give a damn about anything.  Nothing is interesting to you, nothing is important.  That is what I see as apathy, when you can see the world going to hell, know that the world is going to hell, and not care; when you can your whole life fall to pieces and not care.  That is what I oppose.

Good point Raelifin, and it is for this reason that I find myself guarded against such notions as "revolution".  As I stated before, I find it best to persuade through the exhibition of positive qualities than to strike against those I deem negative (sometimes it's the only way that works, though).  For one, it is always important to remember that any person seems all the more damning when we fail to divide them from their ideologies.  For the sake of "that thing they do", we would mock them entirely, and I will not have that (thus the danger of generalisations).  I have suffered such failings many times, and do not wish to do so again.

But I agree with Seraph's counterpoint to the whole apathy jive.  Limetom described active restraint, while Raelifin describes casual, dispassionate lack of concern.  I will not utterly discredit the merit of this, for the idea of "Cool" was built upon the idea of being unfettered.  However, it is such a notion of apathy which also compels many of us not to lift ourselves up.  Some who perceive such destructive inaction (and it is destructive) will revile it, thinking them petty or lazy.  I, however, am saddened by it, for here we have youths (and this definition may encompass a great many years) who have taken their woes - wholly repairable woes - and chosen the road of perpetual lamentation.  These youths whose friends have deserted them, or whose parents are divorced, or who think themselves unfit for this consumer world.  The fault lies precisely in inaction, for while I will not deny the pleasures of melancholy (those of you who have been deeply depressed will know full well how one seeks further the that emotion that fills them, making it a terror to overcome), I know that it is better to rise beyond it.  To repair the broken bonds of friendship or seek new companions, to gain the love of each parent individual if not as a singular whole, to seek a new culture for yourself which does not strive only to mock or stand apart from another.

So I say it is the fault of inaction, but I do not say that it is their fault, for it is a problem, as we begin to discover, perpetuated by many institutions.  The concept of consumer culture, for instance, has become a pejorative, a system in which we take take take, and through the illusion of money, profess to give give give.  The conundrum comes in this society's own contradiction.  Almost as a disclaimer, we say that wealth is not important, but rather love, charity and goodwill.  But you would not think it to see the machinations of our culture.  I have seen young women (actual women, not little girls calling themselves thus, which is an altogether different problem) who beautify themselves to the point of nausea, tell unattractive women that "looks aren't everything", or that "people will see their inner light".  Their justifications of their own actions are inane: "oh, I know such things are true, but I have to do this to get by in the world."

Again, the criticism is aimed against the entirety: them as components of said society, but moreso their environment - our environment - even myself (for I confess that I, like many of you, am a facilitator).

So we have these youths presented with an impossibility.  Their world tells them so many things, such that it is a world that seemingly could not exist if its peoples but recognised the truth of their situation.  It is a world that professes the innocence of the child, then popularises 15-year-old sex objects (anyone remember JoJo?), that lauds individuality, then contrives to sweep us up in a swathe of shallow consumer craze.  There is only one solution for such youths, who in all their life have not been given sufficient tools to wisely contend with this deluge of unquaffable kitsch.  They step away, into themselves, into a little shadow-world of their own (just thinking about this gets me hungry for an allegorical setting of like themes).

It is of no help that humanity is so inclined towards rebellion.  For whatever reason, we find it easier to rage against than to smile with open arms.  Thus it is the first logical tactic for the disillusioned, their final grasp at some semblance of individuality, to scream "I will not stand with you, or for you!"  But it solves nothing, for most have not the facilities to find themselves another worthy place to exist, nor do many of them truly want to (nor should they need to).  Even worse that rebellion is subtly (and sometimes not) encouraged by society, the irony then being that rebellion is itself no rebellion, only a covert stumble into the multifarious abysm of "rebel culture".

(That rebellion should be a culture is perhaps the saddest thing of all.  Dystopian in the extreme, for now it seems even our capacity for defiance becomes but another act of complicity)

It is, then, a problem with roots dug deep into the flesh of our culture.  Through a liberal seasoning of doublethink and no small quantity of shameless denial, we permit things that we outwardly condemn as wrong, or simply muddle our minds with paradoxes.  Emo is a misdirected struggle against such nonsensical living.  I think, then, that it is not the-thing-itself that must be opposed, for if you cure the symptoms you have not cured the disease.  Emo is a symptom.  A symptom of a dangerous, self-engineered destruction.  Strange, then, that for all their error I see the nobility of their cause.  What is lacked is a better means.

Wow.  You guys are brilliant here.  Salacious Angel and limetom in particular.  Your views on all this are quite fascinating.  I only wish I could say something relatively intelligent to add to this discussion, but I can't really think of anything that hasn't already been said in a much more thoughtful way than what I could come up with.

Well, SA, I feel that I understand your general opinions. I must admit, however, that I am having great difficulty understanding the individual points presented in your post. Could you please see if you could re-write your ideas for those who don't have four ranks in decipher script? :)

a better means would be consistant, straightforward honesty.

believe it or not, society oftentimes is a near-direct reflection of yourself. in the case of emo's, they allow themselves to "disillusioned" (a term i don't particularly care for, as it implies that the happiness they lost wasn't real), which sinks them into a worldview that practically relies on oppression.

apathy is a more obvious example of this; people who succumb to this have the worldview of "the world doesn't care for me, why should i care for the world?" my response to that is, if you care for the world, the world will care back. the idea of society being a direct reflection of yourself gives reason to care.

pride, i think, is an interesting issue. i don't see anything wrong with pride, in and of itself. i think the problem is more with arrogance, when you see yourself as being above everybody else. once you apply the idea of society as a direct reflection to this worldview, interestingly enough, others are suddenly disgusted at your behavior; they start to see you as less then them.

the answer, it seems, is probably more then consistant, straightforward honesty. it's actively treating our worldviews the same way we wish the world to treat us.

I see a bit of bias surfacing on this thread.  Everybody is biased in some sense, I know I'm biased about things, and I think the best way to counter this is to take a step back and think about things.  Take a step back, and think about this:

Consider children playing a game.  As might be expected, they divide up into several groups; some to play, others to watch.  The children playing divide up into teams, with a few of the teams being much larger than the others.  These larger ones exert their influence over some of the smaller ones, and can generally dictate what should be done, to the exclusion of the other, smaller groups of children.

The children watching divide up themselves as well.  First, they divide up into the chatty, gossipy children and the ones who simply watch.  From there, they divide up further into those who are for a particular team.  As to be expected, most are for one of the larger teams, because they probably have a better chance of winning.  Some of the more popular children who are not playing use their influence to try and get some of the kids who are either for the smaller teams, because they have friends on them, or who are not for a team at all to go  along with them.  Some do, others don't.  A small majority of the children are interested and watch the game, but not all of those gathered.

Yet even having these teams does not ensure complete stability.  Some children from the smaller teams join the larger ones.  Some children from the larger teams switch to another team.  A few children on the larger teams join the smaller teams.  Even a few of the smaller teams make a deal with the a few of the larger teams for their mutual benefit.

Who runs the teams are usually interesting.  The leader of the team is usually the best athlete or the most charismatic person.  A few times, especially on the smaller teams, it is neither.  Even on the big teams, and uncharismatic, relatively nonathletic child is the leader simply because they are popular.  Mostly the game is going to be played by boys, but a few of the tomboyish girls, and even a few â,¬Å"girlyâ,¬Â girls, are playing as well.  Often, the girls used to complain that it was unfair that it was only boys playing, so they started playing as well.  A few of the girls try to take advantage of being girls, even the tomboyish girls, saying things like â,¬Å"Ladies first.â,¬Â

Some of the larger teams try to convince the children watching that they are the best, and that they are different than all the other teams.   Their gossipy friends try to help them out, sometimes because they are just being good friends, other times because they were asked.   Some of the other children watching listen to the gossipy children.  After all, they usually seem to know what they're talking about.

A few of the very small teams start to walk off.  When they are asked why, they give a few different answers.  Some say that the game is stupid, and that a different game needs to be played, one where everybody, even the people watching, can participate to have fun.  Others say that the bigger teams are going to make it unfair for the smaller teams, and that all the teams should be equal, otherwise it will never be fun.  Some of the gossipy children make fun of those who lef, saying that they are crazy for walking off for that kind of a reason, or that they are sore losers before they have even lost.

Some children, especially those on the bigger teams, begin to make fun of the other teams, taunting them.  They find that it is so fun, and that the children watching enjoy it so much, they keep intensifying it, to the point that it does not really make sense, and only serves its own end.  They especially direct it at the smaller teams, because they are bound to lose, so why should they be cheered for?

Just as the game is about to being, the teacher calls them in.  Maybe tomorrow.... Maybe.

Might you identify the nature of the bias?  If you note that we are all biased in some fashion (which we are), then you say nothing more than "on this thread we are being what we are".  What is the nature of this bias, and is it a bias that is detrimental to the discussion?

As to your allegory, is this to indicate the diversity of motivations brought to any engagement?  For all that it is a long(ish) piece, I suppose the point is rather simple and profound, but I do not believe I find anything in it that I would not have found by virtue of my bias (whatever that may be).  Or is it merely something to think about?

EDIT: and let me point out that the allegory emphasises the very reason why I will commit to the discussion but not the "cause".  By targeting the "Emo" culture, you seek to work against an entity of nebulous and multifarious nature.  Within its demographic we find a spectrum as varied as that of the children in the Allegory: their motivations could be any number of things, and in assuming one motivation (or faulty action) is espoused all, you oppose a thing which perhaps should not be opposed.

(which may not have been limetom's point, but it is mine)

As for my biases, I dislike the emo and to some extent the goth subculture, because  as a sufferer of depression, I see them as a bit "fake."  However, I personally try not to judge people as a group, but rather as individuals.  If anything, I end up defending them (as groups) quicker than decrying them.  (Aside: That was probably the most fake-sounding true thing I've ever said...)

As for other matters, I hold some sympathy for anarcho-primitivism, and I am a Democratic Socialist, meaning for political and some social issues, I'm out on the fringes.

I doubt that any of these would interfere with the discussion.

And as for interpreting my allegory, here is me on such matters from the other day:

In other words, it's whatever you make of it.

Good allegory.

There is a ton of bias here, at least on my part. My own bias involves a steep disgust and hatred towards the idea that seems to be planted in more and more people's heads that you can get something for nothing, no matter what level. Game cheats, pity in breakups, dramatization, etc., it can occur in a variety of ways and examples that might be all that similar. Pair that with WILLING (as in, lack of desire to be greater IF you CAN be) weakness, stupidity, cowardliness, sexism, racism, eating disorders, arrogance, and a thousand other things both common and uncommon, and there are going to be a lot of people that I would probably shoot without thinking twice. But let's not get into that.

The reason why I'm biased against emo people? In my personal experience, I have yet to meet a single emo person who didn't exhibit at least one of these traits, and they've usually featured several. These things certainly don't limit me to emo people, but I tend to pick on them (pardon me for using them so much like a stereotype) because they just push my buttons more frequently. Not to mention the music blows.

QuoteAs for my biases, I dislike the emo and to some extent the goth subculture, because as a sufferer of depression, I see them as a bit "fake." However, I personally try not to judge people as a group, but rather as individuals. If anything, I end up defending them (as groups) quicker than decrying them. (Aside: That was probably the most fake-sounding true thing I've ever said...)

Haha, well-put. Hmm... I wonder... is it possible to respect a movement or group, but hate all of the people who are in it and represent it? I'd say yes, but...

... but this would assume that an organization/movement is more than the people that constitute it. I'd rather describe your situation as follows: you subscribe to the ideas the organization/movement wants to further, but you also believe the people in the organization/movement (and hence the organization/movement as a whole) is going about this is in the wrong way.

Quote from: sdragon1984- the S is for penguina better means would be consistant, straightforward honesty.

believe it or not, society oftentimes is a near-direct reflection of yourself. in the case of emo's, they allow themselves to "disillusioned" (a term i don't particularly care for, as it implies that the happiness they lost wasn't real), which sinks them into a worldview that practically relies on oppression.

apathy is a more obvious example of this; people who succumb to this have the worldview of "the world doesn't care for me, why should i care for the world?" my response to that is, if you care for the world, the world will care back. the idea of society being a direct reflection of yourself gives reason to care.

pride, i think, is an interesting issue. i don't see anything wrong with pride, in and of itself. i think the problem is more with arrogance, when you see yourself as being above everybody else. once you apply the idea of society as a direct reflection to this worldview, interestingly enough, others are suddenly disgusted at your behavior; they start to see you as less then them.

the answer, it seems, is probably more then consistant, straightforward honesty. it's actively treating our worldviews the same way we wish the world to treat us.

A lot of truth in this post. I think there's two general rules that we can draw from this.

a) Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself (the old adage, mentioned in the Bible as well as by philosopher Immanuel Kant and others)

b) Extremes are always(?) wrong, the right attitude is always somewhere in the middle (pride as opposed to arrogance, the ability to reduce problems to the size they deserve as opposed to apathy)

Coupled with SA's excellent analysis and Raelifin's criticisms, I'd say those who want to do something (Seraphine and those that have said to support him in this thread) should, rather than proclaiming a Revolution against X or Y, try to emphasize good things in the world. I can see (at least in part) why newspapers and -shows focus on the bad things, but this doesn't mean the good things should stay out of the media altogether. Write stories, poems and other things that focus on the good things that happen in the world, and which promote the message that good reinforces itself and by doing good one will be done good. I think it's the best we can do.

Túrin

I have discussed with my friend these issues and the points brought up here, and we have come to an agreement that those such as Salacious Angel were correct in their analysis.  The "Revolution" is withdrawn.  Will there continue to be a Crusade for a better world, lifting up the good and hopeful messages rather than attacking what we see as wrong?  Perhaps.  We shall see.  Time will tell.

It's a short, but kind of long for message boards bit of autobiography.  It may have some overtones of self pity, but at the time and now, I still think of it as basically a humor piece.  If this is totally the wrong sort of thing for this thread, I will move it elsewhere:

[spoiler=story]JustiN's Night Out: A Story That Rambles Around for a While Without Really Getting Anywhere
by
JustiN Orion Neal Taylor
     I've noticed a pattern to my weird little life.  For a fellow who's never been on an airplane, is uncomfortable more than a mile away from a paved road and a fast food place (not, that I am overly fond of either; they're just the most visible symbols of civilization in the modern world), and is unsure in his opinions regarding travel, I sure do get stranded a lot.
     Take tonight (more accurately last night because I'm writing this down at 2:00 AM, which makes it the next day, and even more accurately a few weeks ago because I am typing this up much later).  I was invited to a Dungeons & Dragons game at Grand Valley State University (hereafter abbreviated GVSU) starting at around 6:00 that evening.  I caught the bus out from my Dad's apartment (the number 9 Alpine bus, for anyone hung up on little details like that) and transferred over to the Campus Connector (the bus running from GVSU's downtown campus to its Allendale campus), arriving at GVSU with no problem.
     I regarded time as a non-issue because I wasn't scheduled to work tomorrow.  I knew a D&D game can go on for quite  a number of hours, but this did not concern me all that much.  If it went past the time the last Campus Connector left, I'd just hang at Kleiner Commons (a food place at GVSU open 24 hours) until the first bus of the next day.
     Unfortunately the game ended somewhat early at around 10:00 PM.  This allowed me to catch the 10:10 Campus Connector, which would get me down town on time to catch either the second to last or last bus back to my dad's.
     I decided to walk to the Burger King across the street and get a bite to eat before catching the last bus.  This would have been fine, if I had disregarded the time on the wall clock near the front counter.  The clock indicated that it was sometime around 10:20 or 10:25.  I should have know this was wrong because it took the Campus Connector at least twenty minutes to get downtown and probably more like twenty-five or thirty.
     I had my Tendercrisp sandwich within the warm confines of the Burger King and read a David Eddings book, while I waited for the time t catch my bus.  Unfortunately I was going by the time on the at least ten minutes slow wall clock.
     I waited at the bus stop, expecting the bus to be there within ten minutes.  I saw a Campus Connector heading back to Allendale go by and then nothing for quite a while.  when a bus flashing a To Garage sign approached, I cautiously poked my head in to inquire whether it was a northbound number 9.
     The driver informed me that I was dealing with the last Campus Connector back into town, that I had missed the last number 9, and that it was around midnight.  Ever notice how bad news arrives like an avalanche, a lot of it all at once, and good news arrives a trickle most of the time.
     Now, I faced a choice: walk home through yucky weather, yucky neighborhoods, and possibly serious traffic or call home for a ride.  I decided to pursue the second option.  The trouble was finding a place to call home from.
     Downtown about the only places open at that advanced hour of the evening are bars.  Bars make me nervous.  I don't drink, so chances are I'd technically be loitering and drunks are often unpleasant folks to be around.  This meant some wandering about to find a pay phone.
     The first and nearest place to look for a pay phone was the strip mall with the Kinko's immediately across the footbridge near the bus stop.  Kinko's is open pretty late after all, and there was a new coffee house next door.  It turns out that pretty late is 11:00 according to Kinko's and that the coffee shop next door was also closed.  I don't know about you, but midnight with cold, rainy weather is precisely when I'm most wiling to part with three bucks or more for an overpriced mocha, particularly, if it means a chance to call home for a ride and a fairly clean indoor restroom to use.  A business would do well to take note of that.
     So, the Kinko's strip mall is no help.  Went to the next block eastward on Fulton where the BOB is and turned the corner to the little side street that connects that block to the one that Four Friends Coffee House and The Dog Pit are on.  I decided to head for Four Friends and hope for the best.
     The Dog Pit was open, and I decided to try later if circumstances led me to it.  Four Friends was closed.  At about this time, I had a brief conversation with a young fellow who looked Asian, who I think may be homeless.  He told me that at one time there were pay phones in the Monroe Mall park immediately across the street.
     I decided to try the Amway Grand Plaza Hotel first.  
If you're stranded and waiting for a ride, why not be stranded and waiting for a ride at the poshest joint in town?  Because they close their front doors at 10:00.
     So I went back to Rosa Parks Circle (the proper name for the park where the Monroe Mall amphitheater used to be).  No outdoor pay phones there.  Whatever happened to outdoor pay phones?  It seems like in my younger days I could have gone around that one block and found at least three.
     I tried TGI Fridays next because it was still open, but there was no pay phone in the entrance lobby.  I didn't really feel like having to tell the hostess that I just wanted to use the pay phone but was willing to make a token purchase of a Coke so as not be exactly loitering, so I moved on.
     Decided to try the BOB after all, and was stopped by the doorman who carded me.  As I was retrieving my wallet and getting my ID out, he asked if I was in just a T-shirt under my coat.  I admitted that I was dressed fairly casually, and he told me they probably wouldn't let me into the club dressed like that.  I decided to depart and not push my luck.
     I went back to the dog pit and inquired whether they had a pay phone.  The answer was in the negative, but I decided to buy a bowl of soup.  The menu board said that the soup for the day was clam chowder, but the guy behind the counter said that it wasn't actually clam chowder.  When pressed for specifics, he said words to the effect of he wasn't sure what kind of soup it was but it was pretty damn good.  Turns out it was white chili and indeed, pretty damn good.
     I decide to head out for Pearl Street, remembering that there were pay phones in the park in front of the Gerald R. Ford Museum.  I consider trying the Amway Grand Plaza again as I walk past the Pearl Street entrance, which was still open, but I figure that a place that swank is probably not kind to loiterers and bums, which they might consider me to be.
     I reach the park and find out the pay phones are no longer there.  This makes sense because my memory of them is from many moons ago when I was a young 'un.  I see a security guard outside the museum and ask where I might find a pay phone.  He confirms my memory that once there were pay phones in the park and then directs me to the Day's Inn across the street.
     I cross the street and enter the lobby of the Day's Inn.  I call my mom from a pay phone despite signs saying they are for guests only.  Anyway, I figure, if I'm in their lobby, I'm their guest, even if only for the time it takes for my mom to pick me up.  Since, it's One in the morning by the time I call her, my mom's first question was: are you in trouble?
     My answer was: no just a little stranded.
     I reserve the word trouble for things they write Irish folk songs about, like â,¬Å"Whiskey in the Jarâ,¬Â or Black Velvet Band.â,¬Â  If it doesn't involve seven long years transportation, right down to Van Dieman's Land, I hesitate to use the word trouble.
[/spoiler]