Ladies and Gentleman, let's keep this civilized. I, for one, want to know the thoughts of both parties, as a new computer is on my horizon and I could really go either way. So, let's hear which platform you prefer, and why.
PC- It's what I've grown up with, and considering the new vista is supposed to have incorporated most of the 'special' stuff from OSX, I see no reason to change. Some would argue that PCs crash all the time, or need to be upgraded, but I see this as allowing me choice. Choice to decide what goes into my computer, choice of what comes out, not to mention any number of other visual customizations. It might be true that they crash, but I'm one of the weird people who enjoy trying to figure out what the heck is wrong and fixing it, so that's not a problem. And for gaming, Pc is really the only option that I see.
Mac- I don't have much experience with THE HEATHEN... *ahem*, a mac, but according to those that use them, they're simpler, more stable, and are generally less of a hassle. As far as I can see, they sacrifice options for this. Sure, you have some customization, but compared to the PC market, it's tiny. And what happens when the mac becomes obsolete? You can't upgrade it, pirate out the parts that still work, or simply upgrade it.
Disclaimer: I have little to no experience with macs, so if what I say is wrong in some aspect, I did not intend it purposefully.
Get a PC and install Linux.
I too have also used both systems. Until this year I had used a PC and this xmas I got a macbook. I would have t agree that until mac os x macs weren't worth it. i hada '94 mac until windows 98 came out (a sin).
As with vista, it's definitely a step up from windows xp. BUT it still has all of the same problems that xp had, like near-impossible error configuration and confusing system utilities. I spent hours upon hours trying to figure out how to make the text on my icons appear transparent over my desktop, which is supposed to be standard but didn't work. My mac does that automatically and never changes. Plus, all the cnfiguration you would ever need is right there in the system panel, out front. In xp, the system panel has a seemingly endless maze of layers with hidden links to configuration files.
Also, vista's new improvements are just copies of what mac os 9/x did several years ago.
I'm not going to go into virus protecton....ok i lied. Macs never get virus' because no one makes them for a mac. why would they? plus they have excellent spyware and virus protection built in and it has no effect on how your mac runs. with windows, you have ot dowload windows defender or mcaffee (god forbid you have norton :P) which (in my experience) slows down your PC considerably.
I'll assume you are pretty well versed in computers so I will not detail how a 90 year old grandma coud figure out a mac in a fraction of a time that it would take for her to figure out the start menu on a pc.
even through all this, if you like games, get a pc. no brainer. nvidia and radeon. the onyl mac that can play intense games like Doom 3 and Halo are the G4, and they start at 2000 and are well above 2500 with game-playing graphix cards etc.
QuoteAnd what happens when the mac becomes obsolete? You can't upgrade it, pirate out the parts that still work, or simply upgrade it.
macs constantly update themselves and never go obselete b/c, well, they can never miss an upgrade. Also they are fully compatible with linux, unix and now windows xp. so if you want the best of both worlds, get a mac, download boot camp, and you can switch between mac os.x or windows xp/soon vista without any detriment to your processing speed.
Ok i'll stop sorry.
Linux.
Aside from that point, I'd personally recommend PC. The main reasons being is that from a software standpoint, both retail and open-source, Windows-based systems receive much more support than Mac systems, from what I understand. Case-in-point: Games. The game market for Macs is pretty much non-existent. The game market for Windows is pretty good, though many big retailers try to push console gaming.
Other notes, if you do ever actually decide to use Linux, PC architecture is somewhat better supported than Mac architecture. This is really true on laptops. My friend returned his MacBook the day after he got it for a Thinkpad because it had some serious hardware issues with Linux.
In my experience, for the average user, Windows is probably the best OS. A more experience user would be advised to either dual-boot Windows and Linux (this is preferable, especially for those who use things like iTunes or PC games), or go with Linux alone. Macs seem to lie in a little niche realm, mainly for image and video editing, though this can be done with both, and now with 64-bit architecture, probably done better on Windows (with the right software.)
The only problem with Linux, for the overwhelming majority of people, is picking the distribution that is right for them. Personally, I went with a dual setup of Windows XP and Fedora, but my friend (the same one who returned his MacBook) swears by Ubuntu. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of distributions. It's a little overwhelming, but defiantly worth it.
QuoteMacs seem to lie in a little niche realm, mainly for image and video editing, though this can be done with both, and now with 64-bit architecture, probably done better on Windows (with the right software.)
If you have ever used photoshop (for example) on both systems (mac/pc) it's undeniable that there is an improvement, there are even commands on the mac that are unavailable for pc users. Also, mac offers the highest-resolution monitors on the market. Without a graphix card, basic 13" monitors supply a full 1280x960, better than a basic 17 or 19" non-widescreen found with pc's.
I run on a PC, but I used Macs throughout elementary, middle, and high school. Personally, I prefer PC to Mac, and it's for one, simple reason.
Two-button mouse.
It has always irked me that the Macs never had two-buttons. I use the second button all the time, copy/cut/past, videogames, window options, etc. If the two-button mouse is not that important to you, then I can't really push one over the other.
If it turns out I don't know what I'm talking about, please disregard the above message.
I have a two-button mouse, and it works just fine with my Mac once I plugged it in.
QuoteTwo-button mouse.
The Mighty Mouse (mac mouse) now supports two button layout and can be fully configurable to do many features besides regular right-click. it might even have side buttons if i remember correctly. you can switch from one to two buttons any time you want.
I'm also buying a new computer soon, and I'm probably going with a Sony VAIO. My current stance on Mac/PC is about 50/50, but I'm going to go with PC just because it's easier to obtain for my current situation. I'm not a hardcore PC gamer (most of my gaming consists of Starcraft, Diablo 1/2/XP, Baldur's Gate, and Warcraft III/XP), so I don't think I'd mind that factor too much going to Mac. Plus, they look totally awesome.
But yes, if you do a lot of gaming, stick with PC.
My biggest issue with the Mac as of now is that I am unable to get GIMP to work on my new iMac. It's supposed to be compatible, but it still refuses to work.
hmmm...i have gimp installed fine on my macbook. is your imac intel-based?
Sorry for derailing this a tiny bit, but how is Linux? I'm considering looking at it instead of Vista for my rebuild...
Yeah I always wondered about Linux...I was thinking about putting it on my 5G iPod.
QuoteSorry for derailing this a tiny bit, but how is Linux? I'm considering looking at it instead of Vista for my rebuild...
linux is free, so install it first. if you can't stand it, buy vista. don't buy vista, figure out you can't stand it, then install the free linux ;)
also, it's fairly easy to dual-boot. that's what i do.
As far as how it is:
no viruses*, no spyware. which is AMAZING.
everything you can run you can run for free. also great.
I've found Ubuntu Linux tends to be easier than windows when things are working. when things don't work it's... much more exciting.
Also, no game except neverwinter nights, unreal tournament, or chess will work ;)
*meh, close enough.
Quote from: brainfaceAs far as how it is:
no viruses*, no spyware. which is AMAZING.
everything you can run you can run for free. also great.
I've found Ubuntu Linux tends to be easier than windows when things are working. when things don't work it's... much more exciting.
Also, no game except neverwinter nights, unreal tournament, or chess will work ;)
Hmm, I was under the impression that it ran windows stuff fine... a black mark, nothing more. I'm not terribly familiar with dual-booting, and if I go that route I would have to get vista anyway for the games (my beaten and battered XP still thinks it's sitting on an Emachines... poor thing.)...
QuoteHmm, I was under the impression that it ran windows stuff fine... a black mark, nothing more.
(my beaten and battered XP still thinks it's sitting on an Emachines... poor thing.)[/quote]
I'd really recommend just trying to get xp running from the install cd. You might not be as cheap as me though.
I have Win2K Pro at home, WinXP on my laptop, Mac OSX on my work laptop.
Even as long as I've had my Win2K machine, it runs like a champ. No problems, even with all the funky development work I do. Our laptop runs all right, except it tends to overheat. Just getting old I guess.
Mac OSX is great, with the Mac look and Darwin/BSD under the covers. A great workhorse, reliable as hell. But I've still managed to crash it a couple of times. The downside to Mac is just that everytime there's an OS upgrade, you get pinched. Upgrade your OS, and some of your existing software may not work. Don't, and you won't be able to use any of the new stuff. If you get a Mac, make sure you know what you're going to use it for, get everything you need, and then don't touch it. Not really the best platform if you like to pick up the latest game every few months.
If you are thinking about Vista, I'd take a look at this before you buy: Vista content protection (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html). The executive executive summary: "The Vista Content Protection specification could very well constitute the longest suicide note in history."
Basically, MS wants to become the platform for high definition media - so they are sucking up to the Hollywood and music industries. To make them happy, there's an interlocking system of validity checks to ensure that, whenever high def audio (SACD) or video (Bluray) is present, any non-approved devices will be either shut down or degraded. To top it off, every 30 milliseconds (30 times a second) the content protection module wakes up to make sure nothing has been added since the last time. This is probably a big part of why you need such a monster box to even run Vista.
Whether all this will even work is an open question. Another quote:
QuoteSo far alongside a great many reports of people being unable to play any HD content at all I've received one report of someone who could play back HD- DVDs. Equipment used was an XBox360 (functioning as the HD-DVD player), an nVidia 8800GTX with HDCP (a top-of-the-line graphics card currently selling for around $600), and a Westinghouse 37w3 with HDCP on the DVI input (a 37" LCD display currently selling for around $1,200.
Anyway, I'm not going to be getting Vista any time soon. Probably my next box will be Linux or Mac OSX.
Q: What is the best flavor of Linux for a semi-technically oriented guy who doesn't really want to learn to be a sysadm?
Another Q: Anyone know of decent home finance software not-for-Windows? We use Quicken, but that computer is the one that will soon need replacing, and I'd rather not have to buy Vista just for that.
I've never had any of these upgrade problems with mine. Maybe I just don't use those programs. Has anyone run mac osx/linux/windows on one comp?
In my experience, windows is better for games, and macs are better for work. However, I am just a casual computer user and have never customized my box at all save to change desktop appearance and stuff.
Quote from: Brother Howitzer of Reasoned DiscussionIn my experience, windows is better for games, and macs are better for work.
That's exactly how i use linux. every project i do in ubuntu, while my winxp partition is pretty much an xbox.
In my house we have 1 PC and one Mac... So I think I'm gonna be able to give a good comment on them.
Personally, I prefer the PC, but I think in the end it's because I'm more used to it. There are several things people have said in this thread that I'd like to address. For instance, viruses and spyware... That is true, I've never heard of a Mac get one, but with the protection I've got on my PC, I never get one either, and I don't feel it's slowing it. This works two ways, actually, like yes... Viruses are made for PCs, but so many other things are made for PCs as well that I don't see as much for Macs (Like skins). At first, I hated the fact Mac didn't have a right-click, but my mother (Who is the one that uses the Mac) eventually changed it. Finally, crashes... Once I changed to XP a long time ago, I never really got them anymore... so I don't think that's an issue.
Now, from what I've heard from both my parents (Which are both graphic designers), my mother prefers Mac over PC because it's much easier for her to use Photoshop and QuarkXpress or whatever she uses. Don't ask me why... I don't understand her, lol... Also, supposedly, Mac was designed in its architecture to use vectors in a more efficient way than a Mac, but I don't really see much change.
In the end, if you had to choose from one or the other, I'd say that you should go with the one that you're used to. I'm on the Mac right now and I'd change to the PC if someone wasn't there. I can use the Mac but I'm so used to a PC (And like it so much) that I just wouldn't want to work any other way. For instance, hot keys... I use them a lot on the PC, and many of them are different from Mac ones... Like the windows button + D minimizes everything, right? I -just- found out that F3 does the same thing in Mac, but before that, DAMN, I'm so used to that feature that living without it just blows, lol... So many little things like that can affect how much you like or dislike a system... so that's why I say go with what you know...
Now, choosing between Linux or Windows... I've been in 2 courses in college where I've had to use Linux/Unix... The first one was to work on Solaris computers.. which I hated <_<... But the second one was a course for networking but only using Linux.. and I must say that I loved it (Maybe this guy was just a better teacher, I dunno). In many ways, I prefer Linux if I knew I was going to work with such things, I really like it's simplicity and flexibility (Plus being root makes you feel like a God :P, ok, maybe not). However, aside from such things that really benefit from Linux' simplicity, I prefer Windows for everything else... I've tried several versions of Linux (Red Hat, Suse, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc), but I didn't really like how if you want something done right you have to work in the Terminal. As I said, for networking matters, this is really great... but what I do regularly, I just prefer a more 'visual' environment which I didn't feel I got using any of those versions of Linux.
In the end however, I think that going with what you're used to is probably the best thing... When you use Linux over Windows or Mac over PC (At least in my case) you just feel as if you are missing things that you can only get in the PC, even if it's just that ease of use.
Hmm, wireless is going to be important to me, since I've got a Linksys 802.11b/g router at home. I'm mostly looking at a replacement for my older box, so any hints on what to buy to avoid issues would be handy. I could salvage the Linksys wireless card from it, but that's about it.
This is a hardware issue more than a software issue. Mac OS X is a much superior operating system in pretty much every respect.
With that out of the way, let's talk hardware.
Personal computer hardware is becoming homogeneous pretty quick. Everything runs on X86 now. It mostly comes down to individual parts and motherboard chips, with individual performance differences between what runs with macs and what runs with PCs being pretty small.
The main point of interest is cost. Apple hardware is much, much more expensive for the power you get than "PC" hardware. You can build a very high-quality PC for about $800, or order a very high-quality Apple for a little over twice as much. Hardware monopoly is part of Jobs' business model, so don't expect that to change any time soon.
Since you can run Windows on any new (Intel) mac, you should buy an Apple if you can afford it. You should buy a PC if you can't.
Such is my 2Ã,¢.
QuoteHmm, wireless is going to be important to me, since I've got a Linksys 802.11b/g router at home. I'm mostly looking at a replacement for my older box, so any hints on what to buy to avoid issues would be handy. I could salvage the Linksys wireless card from it, but that's about it.
think[/i] it's specific brands of wireless that have problems. Googlesearch indicates that linksys may be one of those brands depending on the card, but the article was out of date. Daggerhart's the one that's had to deal with it, i'll try to ask him about it.
Quote from: brainfaceQuote(my beaten and battered XP still thinks it's sitting on an Emachines... poor thing.)
I did run it from the install CD, it was packaged with the Emachines, and supposedly won't(HA) work with anything else.
Quote from: Hellraiser...
In the end, if you had to choose from one or the other, I'd say that you should go with the one that you're used to.
...
In the end however, I think that going with what you're used to is probably the best thing...
hear here. i agree wholeheartedly. i personally prefer PC's with windows (any version will do, but this machine is running 2k), but it's because of small things like shortcuts, hotkeys, appearance (the standard apple look kinda scares me, to be honest... i don't know if i could take it seriously).... stuff like that.
that said, i broke my teeth (figuratively speaking) on a IIe...
Quote from: snakefingIf you are thinking about Vista, I'd take a look at this before you buy: Vista content protection (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html). The executive executive summary: "The Vista Content Protection specification could very well constitute the longest suicide note in history."
Basically, MS wants to become the platform for high definition media - so they are sucking up to the Hollywood and music industries. To make them happy, there's an interlocking system of validity checks to ensure that, whenever high def audio (SACD) or video (Bluray) is present, any non-approved devices will be either shut down or degraded. To top it off, every 30 milliseconds (30 times a second) the content protection module wakes up to make sure nothing has been added since the last time. This is probably a big part of why you need such a monster box to even run Vista.
that article scared the crap outta me, to be honest.
I heard rumors that macs werent as customizeable as pc's. while it may not be as varied, you can still do some awesome stuff.
[spoiler](http://edge.macworld.com/2006/07/images/content/necromac.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://edge.macworld.com/2006/07/images/content/blueice.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://edge.macworld.com/2006/07/images/content/loadingdock.jpg)[/spoiler]
Quote from: So-KeherI heard rumors that macs werent as customizeable as pc's. while it may not be as varied, you can still do some awesome stuff.
[spoiler](http://edge.macworld.com/2006/07/images/content/necromac.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://edge.macworld.com/2006/07/images/content/blueice.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://edge.macworld.com/2006/07/images/content/loadingdock.jpg)[/spoiler]
wrong kind of customization, but beautiful nonetheless. I might even pull out that first look for my rebuild...
oh. well if you mean desktop customization (graphics) then I admit windowblinds is far more varied than, for example, shapeshifter could ever be.
I'm actually talking about swapping out hardware, customizing it like that.
*PC: not enough memory? pop in a new card, just like that!
*mac: not enough memory? uhh.... call tech support, cross your fingers, ans say a hail mary?
edit- given my lack of experience with macs, this may be an exaggeration, but i do know installing memory really is that easy for PCs.
It may be a little exagurrated but for a while you are right. I spent a whole weekedn once just swapping dozens of parts in my PC around (i think i put 3 hardrives in, all with different versions of the OS, what a pain). Now I think mac is getting smarter, at least with the newest models. I think I can just remove the battery to get to my memory but beyond that I don't think there is much you can do.
Part of Apple's strategy here is to keep a tight rein on the number of variations. No third party drivers causing compatibility problems, everything thoroughly tested in every available configuration, etc.
That means that you don't have the endless options, aftermarket additions, and stuff; plus you have to buy everything from Apple. Lower effective competition also means higher prices. The upside is that everything always works right out of the box, patches are always seamless, nothing ever breaks.
Word of advice:
AVOID WINDOWS VISTA AT ALL COSTS!!!
I have Vista, and honestly, its not that bad.
Quote from: So-KeherQuoteAnd what happens when the mac becomes obsolete? You can't upgrade it, pirate out the parts that still work, or simply upgrade it.
I know this is fairly old but I still felt a need to respond.
Macs go obsolete just like any other computer. Windows machines don't miss upgrades as long as you allow them to do their normal update but they still get older. It isn't the software, it's the hardware. Over time it gets older and newer things come out and your computer isn't compatible and you need to upgrade it's hardware. With a PC that's easy, it's just a shell with interlocking pieces inside. So you go and buy new pieces and stick them in. A mac though is a solid system. If you want to upgrade it without buying a new mac you have to be extremely knowledgeable with computer internals (or find someone willing to crack it open for you and risk breaking it to add in parts off a newer one that you somehow got ahold of).
This goes back to the customization issue. Macs are great for people who aren't well versed with computers. They are stable, straight forward, and easy to use. Anybody can very quickly pick up how to use a mac to do what they want. Not so with a PC. A PC was and still is a computer persons computer. It is complex, stubborn, and confusing. But it is also widely customizable. There are things you can do with a PC both hardware-wise and software-wise that you can't or shouldn't do to a mac. They also offer a much wider range of things to work with. This comes together as a platform that requires alot of care... but gives back alot for the care provided.
I have experience with both and I will say that I prefer the PC. I am however a computer person and I enjoy that freedom they give. If you are fairly new to computers and just want something straightforward that will do your work and do it good, then I would suggest a Macintosh. If you have been around the block with computing and want a bit of freedom to make your computer work like you want it to, get a PC. Oh and if you get a PC... forget the free norton/mcafee junk it comes with, get AVG (much more robust and uses far less system resources for less slowdown).
So to put it simply. Macs are Lawful Neutral and PCs are Chaotic Good (though installing windows may or may not make it Chaotic Evil :P ). If you get a mac under the right circumstances, then good it should do what you want it to. If you get a PC I would suggest XP Pro with the latest service pack. It is much more stable then vista is right now (give vista a few years and they should have it stable enough to switch over).
Quote from: Higgs BosonI have Vista, and honestly, its not that bad.
I'll be perfectly fair, it added my printer/scanner seamlessly. It doesn't seem to work with my video card, it definitely doesn't work with my webcam, it took a lot of work to get it to work with my wireless card, it took a download before it could work with help files designed for XP, and it asks me to make sure I want to do what I'm attempting, almost every time I attempt to do
anything.
But, like I said, it added my printer/scanner seamlessly.
I haven't had to search for drivers or downloads to fix anything at all. I guess one of the bad things about Vista is that it varies from install to install. Out of curiosity, what video card are you using.
Surprisingly, an NVidia GeForce 6200. It's certainly capable of handling Vista, but the drivers don't seem to work, regardless of whether I use the disc or or I download the driver straight from the NVidia website.
That's odd. Well, a tip to anyone who gets Vista. Turn User Account Control OFF ASAP.
Agreed.
Anyways, right now I'm running a vista-only machine. With any luck, I'll hopefully have it as an XP-only machine within a month, and from there, it shouldn't be too hard to get back to an XP/Linux dual-boot system, just the way I want it.
I also have Vista, and have had no problems thusfar. While I would have liked to get the 64-bit version, my computer came with the 32-bit version, and due to the price and the stability issues (which, at this point
only apply to the 64-bit version of Vista), I have no real intention of upgrading.
Hardware is:
*2 GHz AMD Turion 64 X2 (64-bit; dual cores)
*4 GB RAM (only 2 GB are available due to a 32-bit OS)
*ATI Radeon HD 2600 (512 MB)
*150 GB HDD, 1/2 TB External HDD
Thinking about partitioning and installing Linux on the external HDD.
I heard rumors that Microsoft is working on the next OS after Vista, which really won't be Windows at all, but much closer to DOS, instead of long chains of DOS code, it will use scripts and work in a GUI enviroment, so Windows like, but going back to something they've been running away from for 10 years.
I'm a graphic designer, but outside of school, I've always worked with PC not Mac. Mac, PC, their just tool boxes to get things done, use whichever you're more comfortable with. I've always been as much a techie as an artist, so I'm more comfortable with PC.
Quote from: Higgs BosonI have Vista, and honestly, its not that bad.
I'm afraid to get Vista. Firstly stabalization is a big thing for me & I've heard that it's even less stable the XP pro; second I've got some old programs on my PC which I still use & adore (
Quark Xpress 4 as the prime example & the old D&D 2e Core Rules program as the other). One thing I've heard pretty consistently about Vista is that it's not all that friendly to older programs like the ones I mentioned. I don't wanna get a new OS & suddenly see that a program that I'm use to & like I can no longer use due to compatability issues like this.
On the Mac side I'm seriously considering getting a notebook. I've tried a friends & you can open up an unlimited number of windows with
no slowdowns. If you've got Virtual PC games tend to run pretty smoothly (
I've seen MAME32 run pretty well).
I am more use to the PC since that's what I've grown up with, but I'm starting to get sick of the lack of quality & stability of M$ & M$-related products.
Quote from: RandzzI am more use to the PC since that's what I've grown up with, but I'm starting to get sick of the lack of quality & stability of M$ & M$-related products.
May I suggest Linux? It's opensource, which means M$ has nothing to do with it. It's certainly not flawless, but it's a good option if you want the hardware flexibility of a PC without having to resort to Windoze. There's a thread around here somewhere on Linux, if you want to take a look at that.