I've got a little dilemma here involving some gun monsters in a post-apocalyptic world - Deadlands Hell on Earth.
The concept
[spoiler]These are abominations themed around one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, War. These abominations, called "Deadeyes" by the locals, were made from the most battle-crazed and deadly soldiers of the last war. If you killed enough men in combat, you got a nod from war, and were transformed into a "Deadeye" when the bombs dropped. A Deadeye is an armored corpse brimming with firearms; sticking out of the arms, hands, chest, and sometimes even mouth or head. They call them "Deadeyes" for all the obvious reasons; also, they are very accurate and all sport one glowing green cybernetic eye. There are different kinds of Deadeyes (machinegunners, snipers, immolators, and tanks), but I'll get into the gory details some other time.[/spoiler]
So here's my question; how do I represent their uncanny ability to kill things wtih guns? I have a few options - which do you think would be best? No knowledge of the system required, as its all very straightforward. Any terms I use basically mean what they sound like.
Since they have a butt-load of guns, I figure I'll let them shoot alot per action. But how many times? The way I've drawn and envision these things, they have a multitude of guns coming out of them. Maybe I'll have one attack per body location with a weapon (i.e. left arm, right arm, guts, head)... maybe just a doubled-up two gun kid, with two guns in each hand. What do you think?
Other than that, its just a matter of beefing up their shooting skill, which is simple as pie.
Finally, monsters that are pretty damn supernatural (like Deadeyes) usually give up a cool "Coup", or special power, to the person that kills them. What should it be? So many options... I've had ideas like a simple bonus to shoot, making it easier to get a headshot, infinite ammo for one gun, etc. If you killed a gun-monster, what kind of cool power would YOU want from it?
1. Beef up their ranged attack bonus with guns.
2. Treat them as if they had two-weapon fighting maxed out (to get another attack).
3. Give them a few special abilities like "Burst Fire" (shoot all guns at once, area effect of damage) etc.
4. Give them a DR/ to something, maybe up to magic or piercing
Do not give them more attacks than the PC's could get in their lifetime, it would seem to them unfair to them and might get unbalanced. I think six would be a good max.
Make them difficult to kill. If a character sacrifices all of their xtra attacks for one attack focused on their eye, which has a big AC, and they confirm a critical hit, then the gun monster is immediately destroyed?
It would be kind of cool for them to be able to fairly quickly repair weapons and adapt weapons. They should be good armorers and they should have a wide variety of types of weapons. In a way they could be both dangerous and useful prizes--sort of like if you kill a dragon you expect treasure, in their case you expect a walking store of arms and ammo.
I don't know if lots of guns everywhere AND great accuracy work well together. They could have a few with insane accuracy, or lots that killls in an area effect.
What about taking inspiration for the obliterators from warhammer 40K. If you are unfamiliar with them, they are partially cybernectic and can morph whatever kind of gun they need. So their hands can change into a different weapon as like a standard action or something.
If you are doing one for each horseman, i'd like to help with the others too. I think something based off the Saint of Killers from Preacher could be awesome for Death's guys.
Thanks for the advice; this isn't a D20 game, but it works anyway.
You're probobly right where they shouldnt have more attacks then the PCs could. That could become ridiculous and unfair ("why do they get to shoot six times an action card?!"). I do like the idea of the eye being a weak point, and I will impliment it; thank you!
I'm not sure how I want to do "material rewards" with these beasties. Repairing or salvaging weapons rings just a little bit too close to a civilized creature, which isn't what a deadeye is. I always kind of figured the guns were more or less fused into them, without even any firing mechanism; they do however manufacture bullets in their bodies (they don't scavenge, but they do eat lead, brass, and primers for breakfast). I suppose you could salvage them for spare parts and bullets, if you're willing to get close to something that ugly and dead.
I'm more concerned with the "Coup". Would a hero infused with the power of an unholy gun monster become...
never miss/hit more often (bonus to hit)?
make more deadly shots (more damage)?
hit the head more often (head shot 10% of the time instead of 5%)?
Something subtle but cool...
Quote from: Team Discovery ChannelI don't know if lots of guns everywhere AND great accuracy work well together. They could have a few with insane accuracy, or lots that killls in an area effect.
What about taking inspiration for the obliterators from warhammer 40K. If you are unfamiliar with them, they are partially cybernectic and can morph whatever kind of gun they need. So their hands can change into a different weapon as like a standard action or something.
If you are doing one for each horseman, i'd like to help with the others too. I think something based off the Saint of Killers from Preacher could be awesome for Death's guys.
Hmmm... they're called "deadeyes", but that could be a misnomer, or simply due to their glowin' green eye. I suppose being deadly accurate and having two chainguns might be a bit much. I think the sniper deadeyes could represent the accurate ones in the bunch.
I do remember the obliterators from WH40k, and it would be cool to mow the posse down with a minigun one second and then blast them with a shotgun when they get up close.
Keep an eye out for the "pale horse" thread, where all those fantastic Apocalyptic ideas can come to life.
Quote from: V - L0XI'm not sure how I want to do "material rewards" with these beasties. Repairing or salvaging weapons rings just a little bit too close to a civilized creature, which isn't what a deadeye is. I always kind of figured the guns were more or less fused into them, without even any firing mechanism; they do however manufacture bullets in their bodies (they don't scavenge, but they do eat lead, brass, and primers for breakfast). I suppose you could salvage them for spare parts and bullets, if you're willing to get close to something that ugly and dead.
I'm more concerned with the "Coup". Would a hero infused with the power of an unholy gun monster become...
never miss/hit more often (bonus to hit)?
make more deadly shots (more damage)?
hit the head more often (head shot 10% of the time instead of 5%)?
Something subtle but cool...
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How about this: If a PC does more than half the creature's life in damage (like an instant kill), one of their arms (or hands) grafts into a random firearm used by the creature for X rounds. The PC can use the weapon as if he was proficient an also had the feats and base attack bonus of the creature who used it. Once the time runs out, the firearm just dissapears (in a poof of smoke perhaps?) leaving the PC's unaffected appendage behind.
in d20 terms, i'd make a creature that had half a dozen or more guns coming out of its body do area effect piercing damage instead of rolling half a dozen or more attack rolls.
I've no idea how that would work with your system, though.
What system are you using anyway? a d6 system?
I like the area effects idea.
friendly bump
Hmmm... sniping sounds more like Death and less like War.
CHAINGUNS. Also, the morphing of guns and arms should be ridonkulous and grotesque.. Like something out of Akira or Fullmetal alchemist.
You might also consider making plague radioactive, as opposed to relying on pathogens. Famine would be harder to model. Perhaps thriving by consuming, perhaps making freakish gluttonous monsters out of innocents via pathogens.
Just some rambling.
Quote from: So-KeherWhat system are you using anyway? a d6 system?
I like the area effects idea.
Thanks for the bump.
I'm using the Deadlands system:
The skill/to hit rolls are similar to shadowrun where you've got a bunch of dice and you take the highest roll; the more dice you have and the bigger the die (i.e. a 1d4 in shooting sucks whereas a 5d12 in shooting is beardy) the greater the chance of success. I was thinking of giving players a +1 to +4 bonus on their shooting rolls if they get the supernatural "Coup" from a deadeye.
Damage is dealt similarly to DnD, where you drop a handfulla dice and add 'em together to hurt someone, but the dice vary greatly, from the standard 3d6 from a 9mm (5d6 if a headshot), to a massive 6d20 explosion from an Automaton's self-destruct mechanism. The weapons the Deadeye's will be using will vary from a 7.62mm round (4d8; the Machinegunners) to a .50 BMG (5d10; the Snipers) to a Light Antitank Rocket (3d20 AP 3; the Seekers) to a 105mm artillery cannon (6d20; the Tank). I might have 'em morph into shotguns, buzzsaws, and chainsaws if the players get too close. Maybe I can make some of the ammo available after these things are dead? Maybe I can even let creative players tinker with the corpses for awhile to extract the mechanism which allows them to digest raw materials and turn it into ammo.
Every shot's hit location is determined randomly, and the possible targets include all four limbs, the guts (torso), and the noggin. I was thinking of making the "Coup" of the deadeye be an increased chance to hit the noggin (%5 to %10).
The funny thing with this weird "Coup" supernatural-power-sucking thing is, the more powerful the coup, the more the drawback. A small bonus (like +2 to shooting) is generally always on and has no drawback. Something more substantial like the ammo machine or the headshot bonus usualy comes with a small price. Maybe the player hits his friends accidentally in combat more often, or he's more quick to pull his hogleg and empty it into anything that seems even remotely dangerous. Maybe the ammo machine wakes the player up in the night because it wants to play "kill the rest of the group". Any ideas?
Quote from: beejazzHmmm... sniping sounds more like Death and less like War.
CHAINGUNS. Also, the morphing of guns and arms should be ridonkulous and grotesque.. Like something out of Akira or Fullmetal alchemist.
You might also consider making plague radioactive, as opposed to relying on pathogens. Famine would be harder to model. Perhaps thriving by consuming, perhaps making freakish gluttonous monsters out of innocents via pathogens.
Just some rambling.
Sniping is pretty close to death's deal, now that you mention it. There's little conflict, no struggle, just a corpse. But the motivation, the reasons for the sniper to be blasting someone is War. I think the horsemen can share on this one, but good call. Really, all this stuff is just "dying" anyway. Death is like the Uncle Pennybags of the Apocalypse - he's gotta monopoly on the suffering.
Oh yes, the drawings I've done of deadeyes are quite ridonkulous. Look up "the suffering" for Xbox, and take a peek at some of the nasties, especially the ones with guns. These walking firing squads are not sleek and smooth; whatever caused all those guns to come out of their arms and chest and whatnot, it was definately not gentle or pleasant. These are damned souls, serving out their after-life sentence on Earth, blasting the innocent.
You know, I didn't really think of it before, but radiation is basically pestilences deal. "Radiation sickness", leukemia, cancer, all that stuff. Good call, guy.
Famine is a bitch to nail down. It's so specific. Horrible, but specific. There's only so many ways to make people hungry or starve; you ruin their food, you take their teeth away, you make them vomit constantly, you make 'em real skinny or real fat, you give them giant evil looking teeth. It's all digestive system centered. Famine is not my favorite horseman (horsewoman, according to the game canon), and I often refer to her as the "bitch horseman".
Thanks for all the feedback guys!
lol... famine has an eating disorder. I still say turning townspeople into ravenous ghouls should be her deal, where if you fight the horseman herself, she should be morbidly overweight and vomit acid...
Ugh. Yeah that's pretty much famine-like stuff. People who she makes go real hungry are called "Faminites". We're talking crazy-hungry, like cartoon deserted island with your buddy looking like a plate of marshmallows hungry. When one dies, gets back up, and is still hungry, folks still call it a "Faminite". According to game canon, Famine herself is a really skinny lady who used to ride a horse; the Church of Lost Angels killed it off when they tried (and failed) to kill her.
As for the Demonic Gun Bunnies... any "Coup" or drawback ideas? ANY? I'll even take 'em in bastardized d20 format... it's a start anyway.
Tounge or bite attack? Vomit acid?
Thanks Beejazz, but I meant to say "Coup/drawback ideas for Gun monsters". Sorry about that. But still, having a special Famine-monster digestive related attack is good. It would need a drawback of some sort, like having the vomit attack would rot out all your teeth or something.
Coup aren't always attacks or combat related. One player killed a giant fat famine monster, and now he can go for weeks without eating; when he does eventually eat, however, he gorges himself and bloats up to superfat for a few days. Another player killed an animated, humanoid, metal beast; which formed suddenly from debris in a ruined city (mainly an old shell of a car) when the players walked by. He gained a large bonus to hiding in urban areas.
Gun monster special absorbed power Coup/Drawback...
Auto-proficiecy...
"Natural" weapon guns.
Alternately, a special defense against gun attacks.
Interesting!
I'm not about to let my players automatically know how to use any gun they pick up; what else are they going to dump their hard earned bounty into? But maybe, just maybe, I'll lessen the severity of the "untrained" penalty, maybe by half.
I could just have a gun grow out of the PC. That would be alot of fun. I'd have to make it kind of slow, like a cancer, then one day the character starts getting firing mechanisms in funny places, start thinking about girl guns, and then suddenly a big gun barrel comes sticking out of his palm.
"Does it hurt when that pops out?"
"Everytime..."
Special defense indeed. But what... something odd or strange. Maybe an inherit armor value...
Do you smell that? I love the smell of forum posts in the morning. That's the smell of progess.
So here's the coup I think I'm gonna settle on. The character can declare at any time he's adding any number to his next shooting damage roll. This number is then added to three to determine his TN for a Spirit attribute check to resist the urge to start blasting everything in sight; including (sometimes as a priority!) his friends. The bonus to damage remains while "Overkill" is going postal, which lasts 1d4 rounds, plus whatever bonus he chose. Whether it's demonic manitous, gun spirits, or just the heros own tainted soul, he flips out every now and then and kills something he shouldnt have.
What do you guys think? TN to high or too low for the spirit check? Most characters have a spirit attribute of about 3d6; it's kind of a "trash stat" for non-spellcasters. How about the duration of the madness? Too short, too long?
What do they roll to make the spirit check (say it was 3 + their chosen 5 = 8). Make it hard of ourse, you don't want every kill to be a friend-blasting extravaganza. Also I would go shorter length for the same reason, PC's might get frustrated if it happens too often but a few times is cool.
Quote from: So-KeherWhat do they roll to make the spirit check (say it was 3 + their chosen 5 = 8). Make it hard of ourse, you don't want every kill to be a friend-blasting extravaganza. Also I would go shorter length for the same reason, PC's might get frustrated if it happens too often but a few times is cool.
Thanks for the input! There's nothing worse than a ghost-town thread with an undiscussed issue.
I certainly don't want it to happen all the time, but control of the frequency of this problem is really in the hands of the player. He can use or abuse the power as much as he likes. Say he chose to do two extra points of damage. His spirit TN would be 5; reasonable, as the game considers this to be the baseline "fair chance" target number (kind of like 15 in D20); you can easily succeed if you've developed that area/skill at all. If he did actually fail, for two rounds (anywhere between two and eight actions total), he's going to be blasting his friends. Deadlands is the kind of game where the players are often tempted into an evil situation.
Now mind you, the posse has tackled things much worse than each other, and they've only persevered through teamwork. So the real handicap isn't so much that their buddy is shooting at them, so much as their buddy is no longer shooting at the bad guys.
Let's consider the player's feeling lucky, and decides to add six to his damage. This makes his TN pretty damn hard for an average Spirit roll. He can expend a poker chip to add to his roll and increase chances of sucess, but those chips are valuable. If he does fail, he's going to be blasting at his buddies for six fraggin' rounds (anywhere from six to twenty-four actions!). He's likely to run out of ammo before he's done! That is damn harsh. Maybe half the amount he chose shall be the duration of his madness... four rounds for such a gamble is fair I'd say, while still giving me something to work with if he only chooses to add two or four.
The way I see this going down is the player will use the power often and choose a conservative bonus like +1 or +2, and usually pass the roll. Occasionally he will botch it, look really surprised, curse a bit, and either save his ass with chips or let me kill something. Sounds about right, doesn't it?
It's shaping up allright, but I'm still open to suggestions.