i'm totally moving this conversation to its own thread.
Quote from: Xeviat TranionI do have ideas on how to change clerics; it isn't a balance change, but a thematic change to make them more unique. Rather than cleric's spontaneously casting cure/inflict spells, they spontaneously cast their domain spells. To balance this, one must also remove the +1 spell slot gained for domain spells. This would make the Healing domain an important domain, as it should be, and it makes clerics with different domains actually different from each other. It isn't really a difficult change to make either.
Quote from: brainfaceClerics absolutely need to heal. or, rather--the other party members need that cleric to be healing them. removing spontaneous healing forces clerics to make a substandard domain choice in order to help the party, or rewards them for considering themselves over the rest of the party. i mean that's how i see it. either that or it makes them memorize a bunch of cure spells, even though they have the destruction and strength domains, which doesn't make any damned sense. ;)
Quote from: Xeviat TranionWhy not? That's what the cleric thinks is beneficial for their spell power. The all cure cleric with destruction/death can prepare all cures, and then when they need it convert them to inflicts or death spells.
And this also makes healing not a substandard domain. Healing is substandard because clerical healing is so easy.
Quote from: brainfacei think that actually works out to a more limited spell choice for the destroy-o-cleric. (there's one set of cure spells/level, there's a HOST of utility/destruction/buff spells.) i don't quess this is the spot to continue debate on that, though. ;) (i.e., a separate thread in elements and design would be. don't wanna clutter it up in here.)
Quote from: Xeviat TranionAs for defending my cleric: How often has your cleric had to have converted all of their spells to cure spells in any given day? Currently the Healing domain stinks, this makes it good, but it doesn't make the cleric a worse healer. If they need to be a healer, take the Healing domain; clerics with the healing domain are healers (sounds simple eh?).
We can stick with the core clerc. But many have expressed that the core cleric is too powerful. This is one small way to make the cleric more flavorful, and serves as a slight power down because it forces the cleric to consider their priorities more.
My cleric in daggerhart's campaign actually DOES consistently convert
nearly every non-domain spell into a healing spell. like, cure spells, shield other, and detect magic. that's about it. (it's what happens when you're playing the only healer). I really doubt removing spont-healing in favor of spont-domains is going to weaken the cleric, either--it seems like it'd allow them more castings of various attack/self buff spells, and less of party-beneficial spells. i mean, some of those spells in domains are
nice, and not on the cleric's usual list.
it seems to me the real problem with overpowered clerics is the self-buffing melee centered spells--divine favor, divine might, etc. i mean, that's the feeling i get. my cleric pc never gets to cast those spells since he's having to heal the fighter ;)
anyone else got opinions to throw down here, weigh in.
I think clerics should have been spontaneous domain casters all along. It simply makes more sense in relation to their patron deity, faith, philosphy, or what have you.
If you want to play a spontaneous healer, you take the healing domain. Problem solved.
-Nasty-
It sounds like your character is a Healer, and would benefit from the Heal domain in my campaign. It also sounds like your party won't invest 750 gp in a wand of cure light wounds, or buy some potions.
The first party I ran didn't have a cleric; it had a ranger with a wand of cure light wounds. He'd get a new wand every time they reached down (it's a 750 item, it's accessable in most settlements), and while they had a tough time in battle, the wand could patch everyone up outside of battle.
I know what you're saying, but I don't think that it is a bad thing. First, the cleric can replace the party fighter at mid to high levels; that's wrong. "Blast-O" clerics are wrong, unless they're destruction domain clerics, and possibly fire or death. A cleric's domain choices should be important: Pelor's clerics should be different from Heronious's, who should be different from We Jas's, who should be very different from Olidimahara's.
QuoteIt sounds like your character is a Healer, and would benefit from the Heal domain in my campaign. It also sounds like your party won't invest 750 gp in a wand of cure light wounds, or buy some potions.
A cleric's domain choices should be important[/quote]
well, they are. domain powers are good, domain spells are often better than other spells in the cleric list. They could make MORE difference, sure.
The way i play it, typically any std. memorized spell has about a 50/50 chance of turning into cure * wounds (or someone dies ;)). But i always get to do nifty things with my domain slots--as long as those spells don't suck. if my cleric had to have healing domain to heal as much as he does, i'd have less nifty domain spells to play around with.
Keep in mind, we actually did have a wand, but I think it was used up after a few sessions ;)
Ishy! Are you kicking your PCs arses?
-Nasty-
Actually, I'm playing in daggerhart's campaign currently; and yes, he is kicking our arses ;) (Mechanical Hill Giant Zombies??? :yarr:)
Ah ok...I'll redirect that exclaimation then. Dagger!
-Nasty-
I would like to say that I like the spontaneous domain casting, and if it isn't used in the community project, I think I'll use it in my CS.
I like spontaneous domain casting, but clerics should get some sort of extra healing ability to compensate - not for the sake of the cleric, but for the sake of the party: At higher levels, the wand-o-lights is just NOT going to cut it, especially in battles agains the BBEG, where you need to be able to heal at the level the BBEG is dishing out damage.
Simple answer to tha problem is have the party hire a cleric who's only job is to stand in the corner and heal. If the BBEG is really evil, recruiting a cleric from a local church shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Clerics are already better healers than any other class. Druids have to wait till 5th level to get access to Cure Moderate Wounds, and don't get me started about Rangers and Paladins.
i dont see the problem with them remaining super healers, though. i mean, it;s hard to dominate over the rest of the party with healing might ;)
if i were gonna fix the healing divide, i'd wanna do it by making the other classes better healers.
Actually ... heh. The next character I play will be a healing cleric who will lord over the party through making the characters earn healing. Otherwise he'll focus his spell power on buffs for himself. Don't know how well it will work out, but it might be fun.
oh i bet he'll be REAL popular ;) maybe even as popular as 'theif who steals from party' :)
edit: why didnt i put this thread in meta?
Because it's the discussion of a design element; changing the cleric.
Interesting stuff this. Now, as to do something that doesn't happen in forums a lot, I'm going to state that I'm undecided. That's right! Here's someone you can actually convince.
May the best debater win!
;) Túrin
My reasoning is that clerics of different deities should be distinct from one another, just like a fighter with high str, low dex, and the power attack feats is different from a fighter with high dex, low strength, and weapon finesse and combat expertise feats.
Currently, the only changes domains grant are 1 spell per day per spell level (many of which are just normal cleric spells) and a power that is typically usable only once per day.
My change not only allows clerics to be better differentiated, but it also helps them to take on other roles than the healer. Sure, every party needs one, but I feel that is a flaw of the system. If every party "has" to have a wizard and "has" to have a cleric, that really kills player choices. What if no body wants to play a healer?
Last but not least, my change makes the healing domain a potent choice.
The only issue that I feel can be raised against my cleric is that it may be too powerful for some domains that have potent arcane spells (like timestop). But this is perhaps balanced by the reduced number of spells per day (since the domain spell slots are dropped in my suggested change).
And that's my case, for all it's worth.
Quote from: Xeviat TranionMy change not only allows clerics to be better differentiated, but it also helps them to take on other roles than the healer. Sure, every party needs one, but I feel that is a flaw of the system. If every party "has" to have a wizard and "has" to have a cleric, that really kills player choices. What if no body wants to play a healer?
Last but not least, my change makes the healing domain a potent choice.
[/quote]
they'd actually be worse at healing. one less cure per day ;)
if you want to make the healing domain better, make it directly better.
some domain spells are also only useful once a day (endure elements). many aren't good for continuous use, round after round. (produce flame is redundant, searing light often too expensive. curing is nearly ALWAYS good. this is a fixable problem, jujst would take work.
i'd type more, but my hands are unbelievably strained. i'm gonna abandon this thread and leave the argumenbs i made. if xev wins, well, i'll just have to cry ;)
Unearthed Arcana suggests doing what Xev suggests, but leaving spont. cures, and bumping heal dice to 1d12 if you've got the heal domain. I could get behind that, i think. the best of both worlds, but a few less spells/day.
Another sugg. i read on a board was allowing spont. casting of domain spells within domain slots. So a destruction/water cleric could choose on the fly to cast inlict light wounds or obscuring mist, and a healing/fire could choose cure moderate or produce flame for his 2nd level domain spell. that;d allow clerics to use the really contingent domain spells more without too much modification to the class.
Options for spontaneous domain casters will be in the PHB II. I read it in the preview today.
-Nasty-
i know... i was just talking to you :)
Again, i'm not going to be too excited about it if it's nothing more than what Xeviat said. cuz i can read what he said right here. don't need to get no book.
I've been posting everywhere. Forgive me for not realizing I was just talking to you in the previews thread. I'm going forum crazy today...insanity is gradually taking hold.
-Nasty-