Hey everyone! Xathan here - long time, no talk.
As many of you have noticed...I've not been around much lately. A big part of that is the fact that, frankly, I'm stuck. I haven't been able to write anything lately, period, and it's been really frusterating. So, I decided, to possibly help me, I'd build a world without using a potential RPG or novel as the framework for the setting - instead, I'd use something else. But what, then? If not an RPG or novel, why build a fantasy world. The answer stumbled upon me in the form of a drunken floormate of mine, who suggested that I get back into MTG to play with him and some friends. Of course, he did puke immediately afterwards, but his nauseous nature belied the clarity of his advice. Once we got Ben cleaned up and sober, I got back into playing magic, and loved it.
Suddenly, I realized that this would be the perfect framework for a new setting - building it with the idea of creating an MTG set out of it. So far, it's been going fantastically, and I'll have information posted here once I get time to clean it all up (not until finals are done, though if enough people are interested, I will post some of the cards I'm making here.) So, my question to the community is - has anyone else built a setting with MTG as a framework before? How did it work out? Anyone here play MTG period? If so, will you be interested in helping me playtest cards over apprentice?
PS: I'm also, for fun, building a CBG set, including cards such as The Fiend of the Ninth Cabbage, and creatures and spells from and inspired by various peoples settings - but more on that later.
Back in october, I had made a couple cards based on our ratings then. That was when we had skulls instead of the world we have now.
Do you have Magic Workshop? I have apprentice, but I've been enjoying MWS more and more-- especially since it allows me to get around my firewall :D
As for the settings... I don't know if any of us have made any M:tG settings, but I do know that ever since 8, each new block was based in a new setting (Mirrodin, Kamigawa, and I think a couple others), so it's a very viable possiblity.
QuoteDo you have Magic Workshop? I have apprentice, but I've been enjoying MWS more and more-- especially since it allows me to get around my firewall
merg? You can set Apprentice to use any port--even 80, which almost certainly won't be blocked. Unless you have a firewall that's blocking specific applications.
Quote from: brainfaceQuoteDo you have Magic Workshop? I have apprentice, but I've been enjoying MWS more and more-- especially since it allows me to get around my firewall
Hrm? Would you mind helping me with that, then?
Although, I'll probably still end up using MWS, just because it has a whole bunch of other nifty features....
What? from where can i find this MWS? It sounds nifty...
Good show.
Is the CBG set you're making a "serious" one, or is it going to be an "Unglued: CBG Edition" sort of thing?
Quote from: Voran IllezouWhat? from where can i find this MWS? It sounds nifty...
To prevent this thread from getting too far off-topic, it probably might be a good idea to redirect all apprentice/MWS discussions to here (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?22373).
:ontopic:
I can't wait to see some of the CBG cards... A handful of serious cards, a ton of humorous cards...
It'll be great fun :D
I scrapped that very same idea a while back in favor of making my own CCG. It's waaaay harder to do, but I have a lot of expereince, so I'm happy with my slow progress.
[spoiler Just for Kicks...]I've played the following games in depth:
* Magic
* Warlord
* Illuminati
* Doomtown
* L5R
* MagiNation
* Pokemon
* Dune
* Net Runner
[/spoiler]
Magic? Oh, i am ALL OVER that. Heh. Heh. If you need any help at all, just let me know, ill be more than happy. I spend hours pouring over cards and R&D articles and whatnot, so I'm a bit of a guru (okay, so i'm not amazing at the whole leveling state based effects and whatnot just yet, but i'm working on it.)
There's a thread about making a conversion of the Ravnica setting into D&D, over on the Wizards boards. In the back pages of the Caimpaign Workshop subforum, I think.
Anyways, I also play M:tG, but rarely over the computer (I don't have the time, currently, to set up MWS or Apprentice).
@ Troll: The CBG Set will be serious as far as mechanics go, though the actual cards will have some absurd flavor (there is a huge number of cabbage type creatures, for example, but they are actually functional in a normal deck, while other cards will be based off of people's settings, which will treat the setting as seriously as the setting is meant to be taken.)
@Rae: I know you're in favor of scrapping everything and starting from scratch, but I've found the Magic system is flexible enough to create new cards without needing a new mechanical basis for things. Still, a new game has its merits - care to share what you've created?
The_Stu: Actually, if you're interested, I have a couple cycles of cards I'd like you to look over for me, since I'm not sure how they balance in todays envrionment (one is a permation of counterspell, which is no longer in Standard, and the other is a permantion of Wrath of God, which has a black counterpart now.)
@Realm Weaver: Would you still be willing to help me with balance issues, even if you don't play online? I've been out for awhile, and it seems alot has changed.
I've played a great deal of Magic in my time, but I stopped at the end of the Urza story arc (I think my last purchase was Planeshift). On mechanics and card balance for teh old set, I know what I'm doing, but I don't know anything about the newer sets and rules.
Themes from Magic have played into my campaigns before, but I wouldn't say Magic was ever the framework for one of my settings. The whole Urza-Mishra conflict and the dynamics of artifice against nature was really appealing to my creative sensibilities, and that particular Magic storyline was unfolding around the same time I started getting into D&D. I imagine anyone familiar with Ice Age, Fallen Empires, Antiquities, Urza's Saga, or Invasion could probably see their influences on my campaigns.
I eventually stopped because there was nobody who played at college, but more importantly because I realized that CCGs were basically a money sink that I really couldn't afford.
I've played Magic in the past. Basically most of my Junior and Senior year of high school was filled with Magic. (Who needs classes. :) ). I stopped when Mercadia Mask came out. I didn't like the "free cards". (IE. This card can be played without paying the casting cost if you control a swamp, had three cards in your graveyard, or your oppenent picked his nose.) I play every now and again with the cards I do have, when my brother wants to play. I haven't made a deck in years. (sigh, I remember those days.)
i still play magic, so if you need to know if a card is balanced or not just send me a PM and ill look over them, and i have MWS if you need to test the cards too.
Xathan: I'd be more than happy to look over any thing that you have questions on. Send 'em by me anytime and i'll give 'em a look over and tell you what i think.
Thanks Stu and Kalin for checking balance! I'll probably be posting them here for feedback, but if I have any particularly tricky ones, I'll definitely shoot them your way.
In fact, for your viewing pleasure, here is my first cycle of cards: the Rebuttals.
[spoiler]Enlightened Rebuttal WWW
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has you gain 6 life.
Deceptive Rebuttal UUU
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has you draw three cards.
Furious Rebuttal RRR
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has ~ deal five damage to him or herself.
Vile Rebuttal BBB
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent puts the top five of their library into their graveyard.
Stern Rebuttal GGG
Instant (Uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent puts a 3/3 elephant creature token with trample into play under your control.[/spoiler]
Thoughts? I know counterspells are more costly now then they were back when I was playing, which is why I made these 3 colored mana. I know they aren't very flavorful - don't worry, my next batch of cards will start revealing the worlds in which my setting will take place. (On a separate thread)
Quote from: MustardI've played Magic in the past. Basically most of my Junior and Senior year of high school was filled with Magic. (Who needs classes. :) ). I stopped when Mercadia Mask came out. I didn't like the "free cards". (IE. This card can be played without paying the casting cost if you control a swamp, had three cards in your graveyard, or your oppenent picked his nose.) I play every now and again with the cards I do have, when my brother wants to play. I haven't made a deck in years. (sigh, I remember those days.)
Yeah, cards like that can be annoying, and there are alot of gimmicks in magic that can bug me, but I never let one wierd, off set *coughFutureSightcough*
Quote from: MustardI've played Magic in the past. Basically most of my Junior and Senior year of high school was filled with Magic. (Who needs classes. :) ). I stopped when Mercadia Mask came out. I didn't like the "free cards". (IE. This card can be played without paying the casting cost if you control a swamp, had three cards in your graveyard, or your oppenent picked his nose.) I play every now and again with the cards I do have, when my brother wants to play. I haven't made a deck in years. (sigh, I remember those days.)
Well, darn.... My Affinity deck is my personal favorite....
I had a favorite deck once. It wasn't that good, but my friends had a hard time beating it. It was a black and blue deck. The blue was there to counter things until my land transformation cards came out. Then all lands were swamps even the opponents. Against a non black deck it was killer. Against a black deck it was able to hold its own. All of the black creatures had swampwalk. It was beautiful. Not overpowering, but I won the majority of the times I played with it. It was my favorite. It was stolen. :( Now my favorite is my silly grindstone/discard deck (it hardly ever wins, but it is annoying as heck :) ).
Back on topic:
The cards seem balanced enough with each other. You could have the black discard 3 cards or counter the spell, instead of from library to graveyard.
I played with a most excellent red/blue deck. The principle was very straightforward - counterspells and direct damage. Put a few sulfuric vapors into play, then use power drain to take all the opponent's mana, and launch some truly massive fireballs - all the while preventing the opponent from doing anything with a huge array of blue counters (counterspell/quash/force of will/etc). It didn't have a single creature but worked marvellously.
Quote from: Just XathanThanks Stu and Kalin for checking balance! I'll probably be posting them here for feedback, but if I have any particularly tricky ones, I'll definitely shoot them your way.
In fact, for your viewing pleasure, here is my first cycle of cards: the Rebuttals.
Maybe things have changed since my day, but counterspells were UU and didn't have optional "opt-out" clauses like these do. Unless cost dynamics have changed considerably I'd say all of these are underpowered.
QuoteUnless cost dynamics have changed considerably I'd say all of these are underpowered.
they have man, it's generally more expensive.
from a recent set(?):
1uu - counter target spell
from a slightly old starter deck:
2u - counter target spell unless controller pays 1; draw a card
2u - counter taget spell unless controller pays 4
3u - counter target non-blue spell
Deceptive rebuttal probably is underpowered, since it's blue. Someone else could probably give a long spiel on how much the pricing has changed.
To keep on topic, i'll take a look at those ones you designed, JX.
Enlightened Rebuttal seems pretty good. I don't think I would change a thing.
Deceptive Rebuttal seems really good. You either counter the spell, or you draw 3, which will probably net you even more counterspells because you are so heavily into blue if you play this card.
Furious Rebuttal seems overpriced. If it's a game-winning spell you want to counter, then they'll want to pay the 5 life more. Quite a few decks will win before they are at 5 life or less.
Vile Rebuttal seems quite underpowered. Many decks today (and in all formats) take advantage of a full graveyard. Maybe it could be changed to them sacrificing a creature?
Stern Rebuttal seems pretty good, and well-designed.
RW, would you mind creating your own thread for those? I've got a few comments, but I'd rather not take this thread off-topic.
On-topic, those look like nice cards, but they seem somewhat underpowered next to, say, Assert Authority. Have cost dynamics changed that much since Mirrodin?
Ack, I meant to get my existing mechanics up, but somehow it slipped.
The counterspells you made are broken. Sorry to say, but with the existing color pie they break quite a lot.
I'll start with the blue one. Three cards is so good that an opponent will always (unless in dire circumstances) have the spell countered. This means that it's basically a counterspell that costs one more mana than it needs to and will likely never see play.
The black counter is very weak. For three mana, all you'll do is knock a few cards into their grave. Black also doesn't put things from library to graveyard. You're better off with Glimpse of the Unthinkable.
White will just gain the life every time, so it's fairly pointless.
Red is probably the best, but red doesn't get counterspells. It breaks what red is and will mess up the balance.
Green is second, but it, too, cannot get counterspells. I know this might seem fairly arbitrary, but the color pie is balanced in a particular way, and giving one type of card to another color will not only mess up the balance, but it'll make each more bland.
The framework for Phaedoras: The AEther Orb will be up shortly.
Here ya go. Just fyi, I haven't playtested it yet. ;)
[spoiler]Phaedoras: The Aether Orb
Aether orb is designed for 2-5 players.
Play Areas
* Destiny: Deck
* Spiritworld: Discard
* The Beyond: Removed From Game
* Play Area: In Play
* Dreamspace: Hand
These are fairly self-explanatory.
Victory Conditions
A player wins if...
* they have no living opponents.
* they activate the Aether Orb (A special card).
* they fulfill their destiny (have no cards remaining in their deck).
Players are defeated if all of their home provinces are razed.
Card types
All cards in the Aether Orb behave in the same general way.
Turn Order
* Dream (Draw)
* Wake (Untap)
* Battle
* Build (Main)
* Rest (Discard)
Game Setup
Both players have decks composed of 60 cards and a number of Home Province cards. Each Home Province has a size value from 1 to 3, and the total size of all your home provinces must equal 3. At the start of the game, each player puts their home provinces into play and The Aether Orb is placed in the center of the table under nobody's control.
Each player draws a hand of five cards and then reveals the top card of their respective destinies. Each card has a "speed" value from 0 to 5. This comes into play later, but in the beginning, the player with the highest speed goes first. Cards revealed in this way are destroyed (sent to the grave). In the result of a tie, the tied players continue to reveal cards until the tie is broken.
The first player then takes his or her turn, starting with the Dream phase. After a player's turn, play proceeds clockwise.
Game Phases
All phases are identical in structure. A phase is composed of two steps:
* Tactics
* Effect
During the tactics step, all players have the ability to play cards or activate abilities in turn, starting with the active player. Abilities and cards have an indicator that states what phases they may be played or activated in. When the tactics step begins, a counter called "delay" is created with a value of 5. Cards may only be played if their speed value is greater than or equal to the delay and cards in play may only take an action if their speed value is equal or greater than the delay. Any time a player passes, the delay is reduced by 1, to a minimum of zero. If all players pass in sequence and the delay is at zero, the tactics step ends. The effect of a phase depends on the phase.
Dream: The active player draws two cards.
Wake: All cards (except those in a siege) the active player controls are refreshed.
Battle: (See Combat section)
Build: Nothing
Rest: If the active player has more than 7 cards in his or her dreamspace, he or she must discard down to 7.
Energy
As in magic, Aether Orb uses a tap mechanic. Tapping a card is called exerting it. If a card is exerted, it may not use any abilities that require it to exert.
Cards have three types of main text:
* Abilities
* Actions
* Reactions
Abilities are usually passive, or cannot be controlled by the player. An example ability is "Beasts at this location cannot be targeted with actions."
Actions are effects that are willingly activated during a tactics step. All actions state what phases they may be used in and have some kind of cost, usually exertion. An example action is "(Dream) Exert: Draw a card"
Lastly, Reactions are actions without a specific phase that are used to pay a cost. Cards, and some actions, require energy (mana) to play. As you declare that you are playing a card or using an action, you must then use reactions on any number of your cards to generate enough energy for the card's cost to be satisfied. Reactions may only be used in response to a card you play or an ability you activate. An example reaction is "(Reaction) Exert: [Shadow][Shadow]"
The major exception to reactions is battle, which is explained in the battle section.
In The Aether Orb, energy is in one of five different types:
* Wealth
* Power
* Cunning
* Spirit
* Shadow
Card Structure:
All cards have the following values:
* Name
The name of the card
* Faction
All home provinces must be of the same faction. If a card is not unaligned or of the same provinces as your home faction, it costs two additional [wealth].
* Type
A number of identifiers for the card. No direct effect on play.
* Cost
The number and type of energy needed to bring the card into play.
* Playtime
The phase(s) where a card may be played.
* Layer
See layer section.
* Traits
A number of pre-defined abilities. (Like Trample, Flying and Fear in Magic)
* Domains
See battle section.
* Speed
How quickly a card can act. See Game Phases section.
* Actions, Reactions, Abilities
See Energy section.
Optional Field Are:
* Tokens
A list of tokens that are added to a card when it is played.
* Defense
A number indicating how hard a location is to raze. See battle section.
* Size
A number that replaces Cost on Home Province cards.
* Sublayer
See layer section.
Layer
Each card in play belongs to a group. A card group is considered to be a single unit for many effects. A card in a group is considered to have a speed equal to the lowest speed in the group. Groups with one or more location cards are called terrains, groups without locations are called battalions.
The layer of a card determines what groups it may be played in. A layer 1 card may be played in any group or form a new group. A layer two card may only be played into a group with a layer 1 card. A layer three card requires a layer 2 card and so forth. A level 1 card may not support a level 3 card. If a group contains the required layer, a card is considered "supported." If a card in the group is destroyed and a layer ceases to be supported, all cards of that layer are destroyed.
For example, I play a Mountain Sanctuary with a layer of 1. Then I play a Naikakaii Veteran card with a layer of 2. I then play a Gentle Hymn card in the group, with a layer of 3. The opponent, seeing me do this, uses an assassin to destroy my Veteran. The Gentle Hymn, being unsupported, is also destroyed.
Every now and then a card will have a sub-layer. Sub-layers work just like regular layers with specific names, but a card must meet all layer requirements when played. A card with a layer of 3 and a sub-layer of shaman 2. This means that the card must be played into a group with a layer 2 card and a shaman layer of 1.
Tokens
Some cards use tokens. Tokens in Aether Orb are of one of three types:
* Blood
* Essence
* Luck
The effects of each token are described on the card. Some actions require removing a token, only tokens on the card may be spent.
The Aether Orb
The Aether Orb is a special card which starts in the center of the play area under nobody's control. In this state it is considered "lost." As an action during the build phase, the active player may spend 2 [Power] and exert a group to add the Aether Orb to that group. If the Aether Orb would ever be destroyed, it is instead returned to the center of the table and is again considered "lost." If the Aether Orb would be destroyed in battle, it is instead obtained by the victorious army and may be added to a group of the victor's choosing.
The Aether Orb
Unaligned
Artifact
Layer 3
Traits: Unique
Domains: All
Speed: 5
Reactions:
* Exert: SS || Exert: HH || 10 Essence: You win the game.
Actions:
* Main Exert: Draw a card.
Abilities:
* Whenever The Aether Orb exerts, put an essence token on it.
Tokens: Essence
Battle
The battle phase is actually a group of phases which work a bit differently than most. A player may skip their battle phase, if they choose.
*COMING SOON*[/spoiler]
I agree with Raelfin, but maybe you should make them multicolor.
Yeah, they could be cool substitutes if you did:
QuoteEnlightened Rebuttal UW
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has you gain 5 life.
Deceptive Rebuttal 1U
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has you draw two cards.
Furious Rebuttal UR
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has ~ deal four damage to him or herself.
Vile Rebuttal UB
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent discards two cards at random from his or her hand.
Stern Rebuttal UG
Instant (Uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent puts two 1/1 green saprogling tokens into play under your control.
Quote from: CornRW, would you mind creating your own thread for those? I've got a few comments, but I'd rather not take this thread off-topic.
On-topic, those look like nice cards, but they seem somewhat underpowered next to, say, Assert Authority. Have cost dynamics changed that much since Mirrodin?
Ack. Sorry about that, i'll take the link out now.
I feel like an old man in this thread. Give me back my Antiquities!
Hmmmm *looks over cards*
The Blue one is most definitely broken... try drawing just one or two cards.
The Red one is nearly a copy of:
Dash Hopes BB
Any player may pay five life, if a player does so, counter Dash Hopes.
Counter target spell.
But i kinda like your red version of it! Goes along with Book Burning, Skullscorch, Brow Beat, and that other one... all from Oddessey block.
Green is awfully hard to balance in a situation like this...if its a small spell it'll get countered, if its a card big enough to take care of a 3/3 elephant, then its never countered. Hard to say here
Black - i say go for discarding cards. That way the card has synergy with hand manipulation. It'd be really mean in decks that get rid of your opponents hand, since even if they top deck amazingly well, you still have an answer. This however, does lead to the inevitability that discard would have a high possibility at becoming a tier 1 deck for standard metagame.
white - not bad. Hard to balance (see green, replacing 3/3 elephant with 6 life.), but overall seems decent.
Other than that, i'd say make them one colorless mana in the cost instead of three colored (1WW, 1UU, 1BB, 1RR, 1GG)
Thanks for the feedback. Instead of individual answers, I'll go a blanket response for time consideration (it is, after all, 3 am, and I would like to get to bed. :P) For those of you looking for the worldbuilding aspect of this, don't worry! I have been hard at work creating a series of cards that will showcase the world I am building, and I'll start a seperate thread for that, as well as more information on the world itself. :)
The counterspell cycle will be made multicolored (you're right, Rae - I really shouldn't go violating the color wheel without good reason.) I'll keep them at 3 converted mana cost, since that allows me to have some more powerful effects, though I will change it to 1 colorless and then to colored mana.
Most of the effects will remain the same, except the monoblue option will be made into "Draw three cards, and then discard two" and black will be either be "sacrifice a nonland permanent" or "discard three cards," depending on which one is more balanced with playtesting. Oh, and since it's UG, the green creature will have its type and ability changed, possibly a 2/2 drake with flying. I might give green a different effect, though, because as someone on the WOTC boards pointed out, putting a creature token into play means nothing against green's two biggest fears, Wrath of God or Damnation. What would be a good alternate affect for green? Or could I just have the token come into play at end of turn?
AH HA! i have an idea how to make green the green one at least slightly balanced...
Green Rebuttle 1UG
Instant
Counter target spell unless that spell's controller puts X 1/1 blue fairy tokens with flying into play under your control at end of turn, where X is that spells converted mana cost.
This is very very mean...and damn, now that I'm giving it to you, I cant use it! (I'm making my own set, based on my setting: Finity) However, since its so hard to determine how big your creture should be, I figured, make a number of creatures, based on the size of the opposing spell. If fairies seems too blue, you can go insect tokens (flying may or maynot apply) This one will give your opponents a very hard choice indeed. Not always black and white as to whether they should counter it or not.
The only other thing that i can think of is some sort of nasty land search ability...go grab two basic lands and put them into play tapped?