As some of you may know, Nasynate, Salacious_Angel, and I have been kicking around ideas for a collaborative setting tentatively called Convergence. What you may not know is that all three of us are in quite different time zones, and thus far, only two of us have ever been able to discuss the setting at any one time. I had proposed giving up trying to coordinate things using private messages, Nate had suggested posting everything to a thread on these boards, and now I've decided, "Screw it, why not?"
I'm hoping to have Nastynate, Salacious_Angel, and I use this thread instead of private messages when kicking around ideas for our collaborative setting. If all goes according to plan, threads other than this one will be used to present finished material and ask for feedback. This thread is just going to be us debating one another and generally airing our dirty laundry in the interest of better coordinating our efforts.
So now that I've explained how I hope this thread will work: Nasty, Salacious, would either of you care to present the first suggestion, argument, flame, or death threat in a new discussion of how to proceed with our collaboration?
Well none of us have resorted to death threats yet...but there's still time.
What are your thoughts about the maenads previously being a race of humanoids (possibly even humans) subjugated by the duergar and forced to mine deep crystal for 500 (or so) years?
I envision the cruelty of the duergar and constant exposure to deep crystal (handling it, mining it, breathing in the dust, and so on) altered them both physically and psychologically into what they are now. At some point they rebelled and now travel world in nomadic barbarian tribes, or live within human settlements, who also hate the duergar.
The duergar for their part want their slaves back and have gone to war with the humans of Nhalassad to reclaim them. Of course they don't mind expanding their holdings at the expense of the empire, sacking imperial villages, or mercilessly slaughtering anyone who gets in their way.
-Nasty-
Eric I was wondering if Angel mentioned our idea about the duergar eating the flesh of sentient people, and skinning the maenads for the crystal in their skin?
We thought it might be cool if they made a crytalline alloy from their skin that could be used to make deep crystal weapons. Maybe the weapons forged from this alloy are automatically considered psychic weapons (as per the enhancement).
-Nasty-
All of the duergar and maenad ideas sound interesting.
Of course, my main concern is still the small number and large scope of nations present in the world. To refer back to your last PM regarding internal and external conflict:
Quote from: nastynateExample: a province which rebels against the priesthood of Izud is an internal conflict (a civil war occuring within the human race, with the rebels trying to break away from the central government of the empire); Humans vs. duergar is an external conflict (because both sides of the civil war, dispite their vast cultural and political differences, agree that they must unite against a common foreign enemy).
True, this parallels an example I had previously mentioned (githyanki vs. githzerai is internal, gith vs. mind flayers is external), but I still have concerns about an overall lack of external conflict in a setting with five or six comparmentalized race-nations.
As in my gith example, all external conflicts in Convergence are being drawn along racial lines. A conflict between two nations is automatically a conflict between two races. This set-up can work for the gith, because they have been in contact with the other races for the multiverse since the beginning of their conlfict with the mind flayers, so no matter how far back in history you look, external conflict involving the gith exists.
However, the humans of Convergence have only been in contact with other races for 1,000 years. Prior to that, there were thousands upon thousands of years where humans were the only race in the world. That means that any external conflicts that existed over 1,000 years ago have been erased, because no external conflicts that exclusively involve humans still exist. That's what I mean when I say that there are no external conflicts: there are no conflicts between truly independent groups of humans; all humans are required to belong to a single political entity. If you want a storyline involving humans, you must necessarily involve the empire. So a if a DM doesn't like this one specific element of our world, the DM is not going to use any part of our world.
Compare this to the Forgotten Realms. Love it or hate it, you have to admit that the Realms are an incredibly flexible world because it has many diverse and semi-independent areas. If a DM doesn't like the Dalelands, he could just say that the armies of the Cormanthor drow have wiped them off the map. The DM has just destroyed an entire human nation, but the human race goes on, mostly unchanged, everywhere else. In fact, a major conquest of an entire nation in the Realms does surprisingly little to change the flavor of that world. I would like to see Convergence have similar flexibility.
Angel has mentioned similar concerns about there being a lack of flexible backdrops for adventures. I'll wait for Angel to say that he's okay with this thread before I respond here to his last PM, but I do have a lot to say regarding his take on magic, psionics, and politics.
QuoteTrue, this parallels an example I had previously mentioned (githyanki vs. githzerai is internal, gith vs. mind flayers is external), but I still have concerns about an overall lack of external conflict in a setting with five or six comparmentalized race-nations.
Understandable.
QuoteAs in my gith example, all external conflicts in Convergence are being drawn along racial lines. A conflict between two nations is automatically a conflict between two races. This set-up can work for the gith, because they have been in contact with the other races for the multiverse since the beginning of their conlfict with the mind flayers, so no matter how far back in history you look, external conflict involving the gith exists.
Almost all nations at their heart are based around a single race, so this doesn't bother me too much, although I do completely understand your concerns. It could turn into a completely race related series of conflicts, rather than nationally related conflicts.
QuoteHowever, the humans of Convergence have only been in contact with other races for 1,000 years. Prior to that, there were thousands upon thousands of years where humans were the only race in the world. That means that any external conflicts that existed over 1,000 years ago have been erased, because no external conflicts that exclusively involve humans still exist. That's what I mean when I say that there are no external conflicts: there are no conflicts between truly independent groups of humans; all humans are required to belong to a single political entity. If you want a storyline involving humans, you must necessarily involve the empire. So a if a DM doesn't like this one specific element of our world, the DM is not going to use any part of our world.
This is the one thing that has been a huge block for us from the beginning, so allow me to try once again to explain. Each province of the Nhalassad empire is a completely different animal. It's like rome when they had conquered Egypt, Gaul, England, Carthage, Asia Minor, Greece, the Iberian Penninsula, and so on...these provinces are very different, and when the empire was strong they could keep everything running pretty smoothly. Now that the empire is weakening, they cannot realisically control these provinces any longer. Provincial wars and rebellion could be a very real possibility. Heck they could be happening right now. The weakened imperial state, opens the gates for this kind of conflict, only outside threats from the new races keep the empire from falling apart completely, because it forces their people to unite to fend off invasions from forces like the deurgar.
QuoteCompare this to the Forgotten Realms. Love it or hate it, you have to admit that the Realms are an incredibly flexible world because it has many diverse and semi-independent areas. If a DM doesn't like the Dalelands, he could just say that the armies of the Cormanthor drow have wiped them off the map. The DM has just destroyed an entire human nation, but the human race goes on, mostly unchanged, everywhere else. In fact, a major conquest of an entire nation in the Realms does surprisingly little to change the flavor of that world. I would like to see Convergence have similar flexibility.
If you kill the empire, you'll have a bunch of provinces that once again are independent nations, just like what happened when Rome fell. If you kill a province the empire can live on. It's different, but I doubt it's very restrictive.
QuoteAngel has mentioned similar concerns about there being a lack of flexible backdrops for adventures. I'll wait for Angel to say that he's okay with this thread before I respond here to his last PM, but I do have a lot to say regarding his take on magic, psionics, and politics.
I can't wait to hear what he's got in the works. We worked pretty closely on the elan together, but I have no idea what he's been working on in the meantime.
Have either of you worked on alternate convergence myths/stories/theories? I'll be happy to do one on the duergar if nobody else wants it.
I'm also curious if anyone has put thought into the impediments placed upon magic. The rough version I once mentioned of an extended knowledge check (arcana or religion) with a DC 10 + spell level, that must be met before it goes off, seems pretty solid, but are there any inherent flaws within it? The DC might be too low I think.
What about religion? I kind of chose a defacto religion for Nhalassad based upon a single over-power who crushed the other rival faiths within the provinces of the empire. Was this a little too presumtuous, or does the church of Izud seem alright?
The other gods (and their respective churches) could still exist...though they'd obviously only be practiced away from the Dol'dolra, and the watchful eye of the Council of Theurges.
-Nasty-
Gnarf!
Angel is here, though his efforts of late have been somewhat lax. First year of uni and already assignments are raining down in blighted droves like the damnable edicts of Dispater! The constant pestering of his players to put more work into Dystopia so that it's ready for play soon doesn't help either.
Nevertheless, the elan are coming along nicely, and he should have some more tasty goodness for you soon.
Anything you guys have been wanting to ask/talk about, ask away. The angels are listening.
EDIT:
I will FIGHT you over development of the duergar, and the kenders must DIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!
:rambo:
(seriously, what are kenders?)
Quote from: Salacious AngelGnarf!
Angel is here, though his efforts of late have been somewhat lax. First year of uni and already assignments are raining down in blighted droves like the damnable edicts of Dispater! The constant pestering of his players to put more work into Dystopia so that it's ready for play soon doesn't help either.
Nevertheless, the elan are coming along nicely, and he should have some more tasty goodness for you soon.
Anything you guys have been wanting to ask/talk about, ask away. The angels are listening.
EDIT:
I will FIGHT you over development of the duergar, and the kenders must DIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!
:rambo:
(seriously, what are kenders?)
Kender are kelptomaniacial halfling-like tricksters from Dragon Lance, who are exremely curious and immune to fear. They are very naive, and get themselves into all sorts of trouble.
I want to hear your thoughts about the issues I already asked about in this thread. What are your thoughts about the Nhalassad empire? What about the magic question I asked? Just go back through and address the things I
already asked about, and pipe in your two cents worth.
BTW: What's that empty thread over at WotC all about? I must know.... :chase:
-Nasty-
The empty thread will be filled. If it is deleted before I begin to propogate within it, I will create another and fill it. Perfect World will be my attempt at a post-apocalyptic Earth, some hundreds of years into the future, when the Sidhe, who had not meddled in the affairs of men for untold eons, came to exact retribution for humanity's sins perpetrated in an age that could not possibly have existed.
In this instance "sidhe" is a catch-all term for the strange things of the earth; that-which-must-not-be-named, the place where missing socks go, and so on. They are not elves (well, some are... kinda): they are "demons", they are things with many eyes or many ankles (with or wothout the requisite legs), beasts from obscene geograhies and toasters that drink the blood of athiests.
It's actually more serious than that, but ultimately it is kinda like what my ideal Earth would be: a corporeal Yog Sothoth playground...
However, it probably won't be around in any appreciable form for a while. I've got Convergence and Dystopia in the oven already, and study is also a priority.
EDIT:
Immune to fear, eh? I will soon cure that!
Bloody kenders...
Perfect world sounds like it will be fun to make.
-Nasty-
It sure will, and I could use any help I can get. Of course, it aint collaborative; I merely take suggestions.
Quote from: Salacious AngelIt sure will, and I could use any help I can get. Of course, it aint collaborative; I merely take suggestions.
That my friend is the whole
purpose of this board. I'd be happy to.
As soon as I've got some real time on my hands I'll give my two platinums about what's going with Convergence so farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Quote from: Salacious AngelAs soon as I've got some real time on my hands I'll give my two platinums about what's going with Convergence so farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
As you can see, Nasty and I have some creative differences (and different opinions about what constitutes an independent realm) so I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I agree with much of what you said in your last PM before the meta-thread came to be, but rather than extensively quoting that message, I'll let you be the one to present your two platinums on this thread.
I will, however, say that I particularly agree with the approach to magic and psionics that you are taking with Dystopia. That set-up is essentially the exact same scheme I had been picturing when I had initially suggested that Convergence be a "psionic world."
I'm also pleased that you enjoyed my "love across time and space" vignette. I suppose that imagery can be adapted to the cosmology that we currently have, but it loses much of its panache when the psionic side of magic doesn't transcend all planes of existence. Once psionics is relegated to being one, specific plane's version of magic, "love across time and space" becomes just another (extraplanar) long-distance relationship.
Quote from: Epic_MeepoQuote from: Salacious AngelAs soon as I've got some real time on my hands I'll give my two platinums about what's going with Convergence so farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
As you can see, Nasty and I have some creative differences (and different opinions about what constitutes an independent realm) so I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I agree with much of what you said in your last PM before the meta-thread came to be, but rather than extensively quoting that message, I'll let you be the one to present your two platinums on this thread.
I will, however, say that I particularly agree with the approach to magic and psionics that you are taking with Dystopia. That set-up is essentially the exact same scheme I had been picturing when I had initially suggested that Convergence be a "psionic world."
I'm also pleased that you enjoyed my "love across time and space" vignette. I suppose that imagery can be adapted to the cosmology that we currently have, but it loses much of its panache when the psionic side of magic doesn't transcend all planes of existence. Once psionics is relegated to being one, specific plane's version of magic, "love across time and space" becomes just another (extraplanar) long-distance relationship.
I too eagerly await your response man. We're kind of stuck at a crossroads here, and one or the other (Eric or Myself) needs to give in some way, before we can progress. I'm fairly certain that I speak for both of us when I say we'd like to get back on track, and are both willing to go in another direction, if we get out-voted.
You hold the tie-breaker, so nothing is going to happen until you speak up. How's it feel? :D
-Nasty-
Yay, I hold the powarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
It feels really good. Aggrandising, even.
Nhalassad
To keep it simple, I think Nhalassad is simply too cohesive, and the stalwart adherence of almost all citizens to Izud's precepts is a prime factor in this. With religion defining the lives of the people, the integrity of the church, by its very presence, strengthens the integrity of Nhalassad itself. To alleviate this, you might consider having disputes within the faith. In the same way that proponents of Islam might war over interpretations of the precepts, or debate which tenets to observe above the others, so too might the Nhalassad clerics bicker and feud over the edicts of Izud.
Of course, your reference to provincial wars goes a long way to alleviating this, and by further emphasising these tensions Nhalassad will be a great deal more workable. A suggestion you might consider:
[spoiler]"Nhalassad was originally a smaller nation, albeit a powerful one, and its borders were surrounded by other human nations (the Outward Lands), who would not swear fealty to the Church. Initially, Nhalassad could not conquer these lands, but with the Convergence, and the appearance of the murderous duergar, the kings of the Outward Lands allied themselves with the Emperor. The Outward Kings, who revered deities of their own, fought tooth and nail through political maneuvering and proselytising to keep their people followers of the old gods, rather than adopting the false god of their usurpers.
Over the centuries, the brutality of the duergar has brought the Outward Lands closer to the will of Izud, but even now the Old Gods are not forgotten. To destroy their faiths would be a foolish gambit, for it is only by allowing the people their own worship that Nhalassad is tolerated by the Outward Kings. Of course, the Church would never permit these heretical faiths to reach Dol'dolra; there is only the word of Izud, and as soon as they may be eliminated without enraging the populace, the kings will surely be disposed of. But that may be a long while yet."
Think about that idea. If you like it, use it, or play around with it until it suits you. Also, I could give you a hand with constructing the other faiths if you do indeed choose to use them.[/spoiler]
Nations in General
The way I see it, Calleith is really the only nation that needs to be cohesive and unified. The duergar ar naturally antisocial and violent, so they won't have trouble shedding anyone's blood, even their own kind. Maenads might not be inherently inclined towards conlfict between their own nations, but I'm sure they can find some reason for intra-racial conflict. The xeph seem rather amiable, but their vigilantism could inspire untold numbers of conflicts regardless. Haven't checked out the dromites yet, admittedly, so I'll have to get back to you on that one.
Magic
Not much I can say concerning magic. As I have said before, mechanics are not my thing. Meepo would be more help than I.
Psionics
Alas, if Convergence is to be preserved in its current form, I doubt the "love across time and space" idea can be implemented, but if you want we can always schtick it in another setting. Basically, here's what I sent to Meepo concerning Psionics:
[spoiler]"As an example of my own idea of psionics, I refer to my Dystopia setting. The "arcane" forces therein were referred to as magic because that is something people would be most receptive to, but ultimately it could not be called magic or psionics. Later, I did indeed wish to convey it as psionics, but calling it psionics would again result in the "alien and unusual" treatment. So now I must search for alternatives to "psionics" and "psion" (as names, not as concepts), so that people will continue to take Dystopia seriously.
Within Dystopia, psionics is obviously not a foreign force. Magic died out hundreds of millennia ago (something I have not yet alluded to in the setting), and psionic power has become the chief driving force of in the world. Originally, the two forces were two different expressions of the same power: magic was a stricter, codified force, while psionics was more basic, primal and innate. There is no need to make that clear currently, as magic is irrelavent to the setting, but when I get in-depth historically, it will be clarified."[/spoiler]
Any other questions, lads?
I can easily make Nhalassad less cohesive, and have no problem with your suggestions about other religions surviving in the outlands (along with the other cultures I alluded to). I have been unable to write about these places, because they are mixed with other races, and peoples about which I know nothing else.
The empire is not united in spirit outside of Dol'dolra...that's the whole schtick. The empire used to be united, but since the convergence, it has been slowly falling apart. The loyal imperial citizens have been leaving the outlands to live in the Dol'dolra (which is why it has become the magalopolis it is), while the people more loyal to their own cultures remain in their "homes" back in the outlands. The people of the outlands feel abandoned by the empire, and the empire wonders why these same people won't move closer to Dol'dolra where it is safer.
I still cannot realistically write about these so-called outlands however, until I know what kind of races live among the humans, and what kind of impact they might have upon the local customs. 1000 years is a very long time. If races like the Xeph, Dromites, Duergar, and so on have been known about for most of this time, and living among them for even half of it...what I write hinges greatly upon who they are, how they act, and what their goals are.
As you may or may not recall, I had mentioned this before. If Nhalassad is going to be the geographical and political hub of the setting, then the areas along the border will depend heavily upon the other nations that border it. Nations that unfortunately nobody else has written about, except for Calleith...I guess I'll write about the eastern desert and the humans who live there on the fringes of the elan lands...it will at least give you guys an idea of how I wanted to compose this. I can't really imagine much conflict in a sparsely populated land sandwitched between the empire and their strongest ally, but I can fabriacte something...probably man vs. nature, and superstitious native people who know something is amiss with the elan. It could also be a good hiding place for your dark elan/reaver/things.
-Nasty-
EDIT: I really like the Dystopia treatment of psionics, but it doesn't fit our magic fading/psionics replacing it theme...in dystopia that already happened "hundreds of millennia ago."
That's cool. I can do a write-up of the Duergar if you guys like.
Quote from: Salacious AngelThat's cool. I can do a write-up of the Duergar if you guys like.
Sure, I want to throw in some input here and there though. I too am interested in them. I really want the duergar to be a powerful people with a big impact (like the main bad guys of the setting). I've been wondering what kind of miltary they could have, and if slave armies are a possibility...maybe led by thrallherders...
-Nasty-
Well, if you've got ideas for the duergar, just send them my way and we'll see what we can come up with.
My duergar ideas consist of a clan-like structure of warrior kings each trying to subvert and conspire against one another, for the ultimate control of the duergar territories.
They place great importance upon psicrystal, and it is pivitol to their technology and culture. Their weapons, constructs, and mining euipment are all heavily augmented with psionic power, and the psycrystal serves as a battery or enhancer that keeps them working.
The duergar ritually sacrifice and eat their defeated foes. Primarily they consume champions, leaders, and powerful antagonists, but they enslave the commoners, soldiers, and masses to work within their mines.
Their greatest generals are psionic thrallherders who lead brainwashed minions (mostly drawn from the ranks of their defeated foes) into battle. This forces their enemies to kill their own kind to defeat the duergar. Their champions are psychic warriors, who use expansion to over-power smaller enemies.
The maenads are escaped slaves who hate the duergar above all else. While most live in tribal units with no lands of their own, others have joined with the humans of the outlands to battle against the encroaching duergar armies. They feel a kinship with the humans of the outlands, who have finally begun to break away from the shackles of the Nhalassad empire.
I can see a great deal of internal back-biting, and skirmishing among the duergar, who believe in old precepts like "might makes right," and "only the strongest survive." It is perhaps only a matter of time before one of their kings subjugates the others, and the duergar unite, which could be devestating to Nhalassad.
Nhalassad and Calleith are united against the duergar, but perfectly willing to sacrifice insurgent provinces within the outlands to satiate the bloodthirsty dwarves. The empire maintains a small imperial force in these sacrifical lands, but it's mostly for show...they really don't care what happens to the provinces, so long as the duergar advance is slowed down. Think of Russia during WWII, and their tactics for defeating Germany.
That's about the gist of what I was thinking. How's it sound?
-Nasty-
Quote from: Salacious AngelNhalassad was originally a smaller nation, albeit a powerful one, and its borders were surrounded by other human nations (the Outward Lands), who would not swear fealty to the Church. Initially, Nhalassad could not conquer these lands, but with the Convergence, and the appearance of the murderous duergar, the kings of the Outward Lands allied themselves with the Emperor. The Outward Kings, who revered deities of their own, fought tooth and nail through political maneuvering and proselytising to keep their people followers of the old gods, rather than adopting the false god of their usurpers.
Over the centuries, the brutality of the duergar has brought the Outward Lands closer to the will of Izud, but even now the Old Gods are not forgotten. To destroy their faiths would be a foolish gambit, for it is only by allowing the people their own worship that Nhalassad is tolerated by the Outward Kings. Of course, the Church would never permit these heretical faiths to reach Dol'dolra; there is only the word of Izud, and as soon as they may be eliminated without enraging the populace, the kings will surely be disposed of. But that may be a long while yet.
This is a fantastic idea. While I find the concept of a unified human empire very oppresive, the idea of a human
alliance - a la the Allied Powers of WWII - is a marvelous thought. Given that set-up, I'd like to suggest that the church of the Izud control the "empire" in the way the Catholic church once controlled Europe: in name, all of the kings of Europe were servants of the pope, and they were obliged to commit their armies to the defence of Christendom, but beyond that, their countries were just that - seperate countries. In other words, the human lands are united by a common culture and a pact of mutual defence, but the various human governments otherwise have no influence over one another. They even go to war with one another from time to time, or exploit the outcome of battles with outside forces to maneuver against one another.
QuoteThis is a fantastic idea. While I find the concept of a unified human empire very oppresive, the idea of a human alliance - a la the Allied Powers of WWII - is a marvelous thought. Given that set-up, I'd like to suggest that the church of the Izud control the "empire" in the way the Catholic church once controlled Europe: in name, all of the kings of Europe were servants of the pope, and they were obliged to commit their armies to the defence of Christendom, but beyond that, their countries were just that - seperate countries. In other words, the human lands are united by a common culture and a pact of mutual defence, but the various human governments otherwise have no influence over one another. They even go to war with one another from time to time, or exploit the outcome of battles with outside forces to maneuver against one another.
That is finally something I can get behind. I can make the outlands different nations
united under the church of Izud, rather than different provinces who are
oppressed by the church of Izud. It actually seems in concept to
decrease the potential for conflict, but if you like it, I'll go with it.
-Nasty-
P.S. I wish I could understand why a Rome-like empire is so hard to swallow. It seems so very interesting to me, and so totally stale to you. I just don't get it.
Quote from: nastynateThe empire is not united in spirit outside of Dol'dolra...that's the whole schtick. The empire used to be united, but since the convergence, it has been slowly falling apart.
I still cannot realistically write about these so-called outlands however, until I know what kind of races live among the humans, and what kind of impact they might have upon the local customs. 1000 years is a very long time. If races like the Xeph, Dromites, Duergar, and so on have been known about for most of this time, and living among them for even
half of it...what I write hinges greatly upon who they are, how they act, and what their goals are. [/quote]
If we are going to use Angel's suggestion, we shouldn't have one person writing about the entire human race. We should each write one or two human nations/religions that existed 1000 years ago, and then explain how they came to be allied with the church that has the strategic advantage of being farthest from non-human lands. (For that matter, we should probably also include a few human nations that no longer exist, having been completely overwhelmed by duergar, elans, and escaped maenads.) The impact of non-humans upon the existing allied nations can be determined after the cultures and early histories of the nations are worked out.
EDIT: By the way, I really like the idea of ruthless, cannibalistic duergar. Perhaps instead of converging from the edges of the human lands, their race has appeared directly underneath all human lands, and is rising up to attack humans from beneath their collective feet at every corner of the map.
QuoteEDIT: By the way, I really like the idea of ruthless, cannibalistic duergar. Perhaps instead of converging from the edges of the human lands, their race has appeared directly underneath all human lands, and is rising up to attack humans from beneath their collective feet at every corner of the map.
Well at least
something I came up with gets approval. :D Looks like tis time to scrap Nhalassad and start over...joy of joys.
-Nasty-
Quote from: nastynateThat is finally something I can get behind. I can make the outlands different nations united under the church of Izud, rather than different provinces who are oppressed by the church of Izud.
It actually seems in concept to
decrease the potential for conflict, but if you like it, I'll go with it.[/quote]
I beg to differ. During the various Crusades, European kings would continually manipulate the situation in an effort to undermine their neighbors. On at least one occasion, a king even managed to trick a rival into sending an army on a crusade that didn't exist in order to have his own forces lay claim to now-undefended territory. And that's not even taking into account that schism during which there were three competing popes, each claiming to be the true spiritual leader of Europe, or the Reformation which saw an open rebellion against the authority of the Catholic Church.
Quote from: nastynateLooks like tis time to scrap Nhalassad and start over...joy of joys.
P.S. I wish I could understand why a Rome-like empire is so hard to swallow. It seems so very interesting to me, and so totally stale to you. I just don't get it. [/quote]
Its been quite a while since I've looked at Roman history, but I have done quite a bit of research in that area in the past, so I'm a bit biased towards real-life history when it comes to Rome-like empires. The Roman Empire whose territories you listed only existed for a few short centuries before shrinking. For seven-hundred years, the Roman Republic was a powerful nation, but didn't actually claim much territory outside of modern Italy (and could not really be called an empire), and after the imperial capitol moved to Constantinople a few centuries later, the inheritors of the once-vast Roman Empire were more of a regional power than the undisputed rulers of the known world.
There just aren't any examples I can think of where an empire spanned much of the known world for more than a few hundred years. That's why there are so many massive but relatively short-lived empires in human history: the Roman Empire, the Islamic Caliphate, the Mongol Empire, the British Empire, Nazi Germany, and the USSR, to name a few. So, IMHO, it makes much more sense for various civilizations to wax and wane in power over the centuries instead of having one empire that dominates most of human history.
It's not a huge problem. The reason why a stopped writing was becuase I didn't want to have to scrap even more ideas. Why don't you and Angel pick out the things you like, and I can work with those ideas.
I'd like to keep the Dol'dolra, and do a revised write up of the church. If I can keep these two ideas, I'll be a happy camper. Maybe I can simply make Dol'dolra like the holy land, center of the church, and a theoretically neutral theocracy at the heart of the human territories.
I can also come up with a history of the church, and their crusades to consolidate the people of the human lands under a single faith. If I can't have imperial conquest, at least I can have spiritual conquest. Yay! It could have been a campaign of propoganda, conversion, and jihad when necessary. Does that sound acceptable?
-Nasty-
Indubitably. Dol'dolra is fine in my opinion, so long as it comprises little more than Nhalassad's true imperial heart. I like the Theocracy, and I think it would be a shame to drop it. A history of the church would also be a good idea.
Nhalassad could become the name of the region or the continent I guess, and Dol'dolra could be a theocratic nation unto itself. Most of the key concepts could remain intact other than the geo-political structure.
I'll see if I can come up with something new for both, but derived from what I've already made. At least I don't have to completely rewrite things.
I think a union of human nations kind of puts Calleith in an awkward position too..If the human nations only recently allied, do they think the Elan are human too? I thinks that's probably the best option.
-Nasty-
I agree. The only thing suspicious about the elan is where they come from, and the fact that some of their embassadors have served in Nhalassad for centuries and show no signs of aging...
Speaking of ambassadors, I've done a rewrite for the dromites that will better integrate them into the rest of the geopolitical scheme. They still reside in the frozen wastes at the bottom of the world, but I'm adding a bit about their dogged determination to explore and send ambassadors all over the globe. There probably aren't too many dromites walking around on the street, but they are likely represented in the court of every major political figure.
EDIT: I've made the changes to the dromites over on the WotC Races board (and I added some xeph subraces). I can't actually make the changes here because I wasn't the one who copied the dromites or xephs over to these boards. (Nasty, if you delete the old descriptions of the dromites and xephs from the CBG Convergence thread, I'll go ahead and post the new versions myself, so I can better edit them on my own in the future.)
No problem Eric
The xephs and dromites have been added anew to the main CBG Convergence thread. Take a look at the new material and let me know what you think. In particular, I need feedback related to the xeph subraces.
I also have a few xeph- and dromite-related prestige classes that I hope to add soon. After I finish those, I'll take a look at Angel's elan and see if I can't do a race write-up for them in the same style as the xeph and dromite write-ups.
Oh, I also have two ideas for human lands. I don't know where they would be situated geographically, but since we don't yet have a map, we can work that out later. One nation was once the seat of an ancient, polytheistic empire, but has since become a small kingdom ruled by an Orthodox Church of Izud (which is run by straight clerics instead of mystic theurges). This land is also the homeland of the xeph, making it a cosmopolitan nation instead of a strictly human or strictly xeph one.
The other nation, which would work well if it were home to tribes of desert nomads, is a war-zone where armies devoted to the tradition church of Izud struggle against a new religion that worships Izud, but that uses psionics instead of divine magic. The cerebromancers that rule this new faith are similar to the mystic theures that rule the main religion of Izud, but they embrace psionics and science instead of struggling against them. They also have their own distinct convergence theory, which is a cornerstone of their faith.
Let me know what you think of these two nations.
QuoteOh, I also have two ideas for human lands. I don't know where they would be situated geographically, but since we don't yet have a map, we can work that out later. One nation was once the seat of an ancient, polytheistic empire, but has since become a small kingdom ruled by an Orthodox Church of Izud (which is run by straight clerics instead of mystic theurges). This land is also the homeland of the xeph, making it a cosmopolitan nation instead of a strictly human or strictly xeph one.
This is good. We need a cosmopolitan nation to bring the PC races together, and enable diverse parties of adventurers. I have no problem with strait classed clerics...I only used theurges in Dol'dolra because they were equally adept at both arcane and divine magic. A less magically focused people could concentrate on the war and knowledge domains of Izud.
QuoteThe other nation, which would work well if it were home to tribes of desert nomads, is a war-zone where armies devoted to the tradition church of Izud struggle against a new religion that worships Izud, but that uses psionics instead of divine magic. The cerebromancers that rule this new faith are similar to the mystic theures that rule the main religion of Izud, but they embrace psionics and science instead of struggling against them. They also have their own distinct convergence theory, which is a cornerstone of their faith.
This is perfect for something sandwitched between Dol'dolra and Caleith. There is a desert which lays between the two nations, and the elan certainly could have begun to teach these nomads psionics, or leak the knowledge to them, or even have placed moles within their society to subvert the church of Izud. This could be a great place for the elan to recruit...Did you already have this in mind, or did your idea just coincidentally fit perfectly? In case you didn't already guess, I
really like this idea; we just have to be cautious not to get
too similar to Sulos's crimson nomads.
-Nasty-
EDIT: I'm almost tempted to cannibalize the best parts of Sulos just for this setting, but I worked so hard on it...dismantling it seems a shame. I really don't see myself running games in both settings though, so I'd be forced to choose which one I like better. Tough choice.
Quote from: nastynateThis is perfect for something sandwitched between Dol'dolra and Caleith. There is a desert which lays between the two nations, and the elan certainly could have begun to teach these nomads psionics, or leak the knowledge to them, or even have placed moles within their society to subvert the church of Izud.
is[/i] the church of Izud. Everyone else is following doctrines that have been corrupted by the passage of time. But the established churches in cities across the world have rejected these claims, so the new church of Izud has only gained ground among 'savages' who previously had no faith of Izud.
As for sandwiching a nation between Dol'dolra and Caleith: Angel, would you prefer there to be a buffer state between those two nations, or do you think your elans work better if they are right next to the heart of the main human church? Mind you, I am envisioning a desert at least as large as either Dol'dolra or Caleith, so we're not talking a tiny swath of sand, here.
Quote from: nastynateI'm almost tempted to cannibalize the best parts of Sulos just for this setting, but I worked so hard on it...dismantling it seems a shame.
Nooooooooooo!!! Don't take Sulos apart!
QuoteIncidentally, if Izud's church is monotheistic, I think Izud needs a lot more domains. More like the monotheistic goddess Taiia in Deities and Demigods (page 203).
You're right Eric. When I came up with Izud, I was working on the premise of a unified ideal, that didn't require many domains. Izud should have more now.
QuoteThis new faith isn't subverting the church of Izud at all. It was founded by true worshippers of Izud, and in their mind, their faith is the church of Izud. Everyone else is following doctrines that have been corrupted by the passage of time. But the established churches in cities across the world have rejected these claims, so the new church of Izud has only gained ground among 'savages' who previously had no faith of Izud.
No it's not the new faith that's subverting the church; it's the elan, who recruit from within the chosen of Izud. The elan are devious, and they want to recruit people from within the heirarchy of the church, so that they cannot be removed without tearing apart the faith.
QuoteAs for sandwiching a nation between Dol'dolra and Caleith: Angel, would you prefer there to be a buffer state between those two nations, or do you think your elans work better if they are right next to the heart of the main human church? Mind you, I am envisioning a desert at least as large as either Dol'dolra or Caleith, so we're not talking a tiny swath of sand, here.
There is a large desert between the two nations. I think Angel and I contrived it with the same thing in mind. We wanted a natural barrier between the two nations, so that when the convergence began to happen, the elan would be able to work their way in unnoticed, and be able to claim they had been there all along.
QuoteNooooooooooo!!! Don't take Sulos apart!
Don't worry, I won't.
Almost tempted...By the way have you seen it recently? Sulos is starting to look like an almost complete setting.
-Nasty-
Quote from: nastynateThere is a large desert between the two nations. I think Angel and I contrived it with the same thing in mind. We wanted a natural barrier between the two nations, so that when the convergence began to happen, the elan would be able to work their way in unnoticed, and be able to claim they had been there all along.
By the way have you seen it recently? Sulos is starting to look like an almost complete setting.[/quote]
Recently, I've been a bit distracted by a copy of Magic of Incarnum that a friend lent me and a copy of Complete Psionic that I picked up the other day, but I'll be sure to take a look when I get a chance.
P.S. Despite some occasionally-haphazard editting, Complete Psionic rocks! And as a bonus, it doesn't add anything that contradicts our versions of the psionic races, and doesn't create any new classes that fill niches that don't already exist independent of the new rules.
QuoteP.S. Despite some occasionally-haphazard editting, Complete Psionic rocks! And as a bonus, it doesn't add anything that contradicts our versions of the psionic races, and doesn't create any new classes that fill niches that don't already exist independent of the new rules.
I like it too. This will be a nice tool for Convergence...too bad we can't reference it freely. Dang OGL!
-Nasty-
QuoteAnd maybe elans that used to be religious figures are also trying to do some subversion of their own, trying to introduce the faith of Izud to the old elan culture. Maybe infiltration and subversion are a two way street, with some younger elans envisioning a fusion of good-old fashioned elan immortality and human-like spiritual enlightenment, in order to create an even more perfect race.
I set up the chosen of Izud to at least superficially resemble the elan. That's why I had the little bit about the chosen (who are born with flame red hair) being taken from their parents and raised by the clergy. The elan who specifically have selected people with these characterisitics, could intentionally recruit or kidnap young children to raise them in Caleith, and use as infiltrators.
It's easy for me to envision the cerebremancers as the next logical step. The elan could be
causing the schism in the faith to work their way into the church, subvert it, and take control of the human nations through their religion.
I'm not saying these human nomads have to be puppets (unless we want them to be), but that their religious differences could have backing that they don't even know about. They could have elan moles within their church, subtly pushing things in certain directions.
Your idea that some of the elan infiltrators might actually be beginning to "see the light of Izud," is also pretty cool. It would be interesting if the elan plans backfired on them.
On an unrelated note, what do you two think about general technology levels, and cultural themes in convergence? Where should we stand on these issues? I sort of went with a magi-tech kind of theme for Dol'dolra, but it seemed like a necessity...I doubt the rest of the world needs to be as advanced. As for cultural theme, I'm leaning sort of towards a wuxia style pseudo-oriental kind of theme. Monks, barbarians, little to no armor, psionics seen more as an extention of ki, rather than a whole new type of magic. Am I alone?
-Nasty-
As far as Angel's concerned, Wu Xia is everywhere that he is. Baennet Zzar and Calthaire in Dystopia are wu xia settings, and Angel jumps on any chance to incorporate those eastern elements into a game.
QuoteYour idea that some of the elan infiltrators might actually be beginning to "see the light of Izud," is also pretty cool. It would be interesting if the elan plans backfired on them.
possible[/i] that newborn elan retain their old faith, it would not take very long for them to realise just how fragile their faith truly is, for they would now live in a world that so utterly defies the laws of Izud, and yet thrives in a way that Nhalassad cannot. If the change of scenery does not sway them, a mere century away from the confines of mortal existence will surely awaken them to the fallacy of suplicating oneself to a god that has forgotten his people. Besides that, what mature elan devoted to the Immortal Cause could
possibly be swayed by mere striplings spouting the dogma of a dying faith? The Izud presence in Calleith would have a terribly finite life, it it coul ever exist there at all.
However, if, beyond that, you find any reasonable explanation for the endurance of the Izud faith among the elan, let Angel know, and we'll see how we go.
EDIT:
And I am wondering... how do the Bas'St (no, not a typo) factor into this relationship...?
EDIT, EDIT:
Waaaah! Unemployed and penniless! Complete Psionics is utterly beyond my grasp, lest I contrive to procure it through illicit means! Phooey...
Hmm... illicit, eh?
Quote from: Salacious AngelAs far as Angel's concerned, Wu Xia is everywhere that he is. Baennet Zzar and Calthaire in Dystopia are wu xia settings, and Angel jumps on any chance to incorporate those eastern elements into a game.
QuoteYour idea that some of the elan infiltrators might actually be beginning to "see the light of Izud," is also pretty cool. It would be interesting if the elan plans backfired on them.
possible[/i] that newborn elan retain their old faith, it would not take very long for them to realise just how fragile their faith truly is, for they would now live in a world that so utterly defies the laws of Izud, and yet thrives in a way that Nhalassad cannot. If the change of scenery does not sway them, a mere century away from the confines of mortal existence will surely awaken them to the fallacy of suplicating oneself to a god that has forgotten his people. Besides that, what mature elan devoted to the Immortal Cause could possibly be swayed by mere striplings spouting the dogma of a dying faith? The Izud presence in Calleith would have a terribly finite life, it it coul ever exist there at all.
However, if, beyond that, you find any reasonable explanation for the endurance of the Izud faith among the elan, let Angel know, and we'll see how we go.
EDIT:
Waaaah! Unemployed and penniless! Complete Psionics is utterly beyond my grasp, lest I contrive to procure it through illicit means! Phooey...
Hmm... illicit, eh?
The faith of Izud could take hold
after they infiltrate the church, not as a lingering memory of their previous life. Maybe they are swayed by the idea of a divine savior, and buy into the belief (just as the humans do) that Izud
will return. As the elan grow as individuals do they not come to develop their own individuality?
On the other hand, an Elan who has lived for a couple centuries, would have seen that the power of Izud is fading, and he would most likely feel less inclined to deviate from the clearly superior beliefs of the Dau Tori. Young and newly created elan however...
-Nasty-
Quote from: nastynateI like [Complete Psionic] too. This will be a nice tool for Convergence...too bad we can't reference it freely. Dang OGL!
We don't need to reference it freely. We want Convergence to be accomodate all new rules, after all. And mentioning groups who "wield the power of their faith" or "use mystical powers to enhance their stealth" pretty much sums up every Complete Psionic class (plus half a dozen other classes from other optional rulebooks).
Of course, the stupid OGL makes illithid, gith, and kreen off limit, but that's another issue altogether.
Quote from: nastynateOn an unrelated note, what do you two think about general technology levels, and cultural themes in convergence? Where should we stand on these issues? I sort of went with a magi-tech kind of theme for Dol'dolra, but it seemed like a necessity...I doubt the rest of the world needs to be as advanced.
As for cultural theme, I'm leaning sort of towards a wuxia style pseudo-oriental kind of theme. Monks, barbarians, little to no armor, psionics seen more as an extention of ki, rather than a whole new type of magic. Am I alone?[/quote]psionic[/i] world, where psionics is the primordial source of all things, not a world where psionics is just X. (I've seen settings where X is arcane magic, divine magic, genetic mutation, incarnum, ki, technology, and pretty much everything else except "psionics." No one else ever wants to make a traditional, pseudo-historical fantasy world where psionics is the root of all things supernatural, not a derivative of some other, "more-basic" principle.)
Quote from: Salacious AngelTo put it bluntly, the Dau Tori considers religion a disease, and the rigid, self-limiting dogma of Izud even more so. While it is certainly possible that newborn elan retain their old faith, it would not take very long for them to realise just how fragile their faith truly is, for they would now live in a world that so utterly defies the laws of Izud... [A] mere century away from the confines of mortal existence will surely awaken them to the fallacy of suplicating oneself to a god that has forgotten his people. Besides that, what mature elan devoted to the Immortal Cause could possibly be swayed by mere striplings spouting the dogma of a dying faith?
Looks like I'll have to write up the whole rival faith earlier than planned so we can talk about specifics. (But yes, most elans will dismiss the rival faith just as quickly as they dismiss any religion.)
As an overview, though, the new faith doesn't think that the world defies the laws of Izud at all. Izud has set things in motion and departed, but has not abandoned anyone. He caused the Convergence (which the old church of Izud denies), and in doing so, has empowered the mortal races to achieve godliness in their own right.
I figured that a few new elans here and there might take a liking to the idea of being god-like stewards of a fellow-immortal's creation, even if they scoff at the "pointless rituals" that less-evolved beings keep suggesting are necessary to promote that idea.
I don't think the Wuxia theme has to mesh with the monotheistic church at all. The Church of Izud is a hold over from a time before the Wuxia elments worked their way into the setting.
The elan and the maenads seem like they could be very wuxia inspired, and the general spread of psionics and psionic ability throughout the world since the convergence, represents a change in the way the world (as the humans know it) works. The church of Izud is the only element holding back the sweeping changes of psionics.
Spitualism, psionics, and wuxia fit together quite well, and the very fact that the church of Izud doesn't fit well into this genre is what makes the differences between them and the psionic cultures so well pronounced.
I think the elan and their mindset is much better suited to a spiritual, psionic, asian inspired theme. I think the maenads infused with psycrystal struggling with rage (after centuries of slavery) also fit well with this general flavor (like mongols in a way). The humans and duergar not so much, but we can work on that.
Anyone like the idea that the maenads used to be humans enslaved by the duergar, that were physically and psychologically altered by their experiences in the psycrystal mines? I want to work on this concept a bit, and toss out ideas about potential cultural outlook, history, and place in the world. Do I have free reign?
-Nasty-
QuoteLooks like I'll have to write up the whole rival faith earlier than planned so we can talk about specifics. (But yes, most elans will dismiss the rival faith just as quickly as they dismiss any religion.)
As an overview, though, the new faith doesn't think that the world defies the laws of Izud at all. Izud has set things in motion and departed, but has not abandoned anyone. He caused the Convergence (which the old church of Izud denies), and in doing so, has empowered the mortal races to achieve godliness in their own right.
I figured that a few new elans here and there might take a liking to the idea of being god-like stewards of a fellow-immortal's creation, even if they scoff at the "pointless rituals" that less-evolved beings keep suggesting are necessary to promote that idea.
I
really like how that sounds. I particularly like their alternate convergence theory, and thier personal pursuit of "godliness in their own right." You've got my full approval. :buds:
QuoteRegarding psionics as ki, I suspect you already know my thoughts on that. I have always wanted to see a psionic world, where psionics is the primordial source of all things, not a world where psionics is just X. (I've seen settings where X is arcane magic, divine magic, genetic mutation, incarnum, ki, technology, and pretty much everything else except "psionics." No one else ever wants to make a traditional, pseudo-historical fantasy world where psionics is the root of all things supernatural, not a derivative of some other, "more-basic" principle.)
You missed my point. I'm not saying psionics is Ki. I'm saying psionics has the same feel as ki, a primal force inherent to all things, and only unlocked by a few talented gurus, warriors, and spiritual people. Before the convergence this primal force was unknown, but there was always potential for it. Now that the duergar, elan, maenads, xeph, and dromites have all become known to the humans, there is a growing understanding of psionics. The fading power of magic makes it even more appealing to a people who are losing their sole advantage.
-Nasty-
I'll leave the "psionics as ki etcetera" debate to you two gentlemen, but I must stress just how impossible I think it is for Izud to have even the most pitiable influence in Calleith. Elan are harvested from human stock, but they are, despite both origins and appearance, utterly different creatures.
My next development concerning Calleith will better explain this, but for the time being this example should suffice: the assumption that humans retain their old religious proclivities upon attaining their elan identity (i.e "apotheosis") is like a child progressing through adolescence and subsequent adulthood but continuing to believe that covering his own eyes will render himself invisible to onlookers. Elan regard religion as preposterous not in the sense that gods cannot possibly exist (though they would vehemently deny their supremacy), but with the understanding that the Divine, however powerful, will inevitably be supplanted by the will of the Elan.
The selection process serves to eradicate those who are so self-effacing as to supplicate themselves to a higher power (even the Dau Torii are considered nothing more than fellow elan, albeit ones of extraordinary venerability, and all elan know that they too might attain the wisdom of the Hand that Guides with the passing of sufficient ages), and keep in mind that the Taskmasters who observe the applicants can read minds. They delve into the core of an applicant's soul, and therein purge whatever vestiges of mortal faith they chance to find. This is not brainwashing, mind you, for the elan understand that while they might want a civilisation utterly devoted to the Immortal Cause, freedom of thought is paramount ("an unbridled spirit is nature's grandest beauty", as the saying goes). They merely speak to the applicant's uncluttered Mind, without mortal sentiment and emotion to influence their decisions. If, in their heart of hearts, the applicant remains unconvinced, then they are rejected, but the Taskmasters are never fooled.
So while it is a fantastic idea, I simply cannot see how it would work. My goal with the elan is to create a nation that at least subtly evokes their creature type. They are truly aberrations: they do not think like humans, nor, ultimately, do they act like them. They are consciously aware that any human unworthy of immortality is ultimately so much raw meat, and nonhumans even less so. The Apotheosis lends them an interminable longevity, and a vitality and energy that other races might envy, but it steals from them as much as it gives. They are forever a godless people, and I cannot see how that could possibly change.
Hey I'll go with either direction on this one. You two hammer out the details. Whatever you decide is perfectly fine with me.
I know that the humans (after the decision was made to disassemble the empire) will be little more than tools for the elan, unless Caleith too is similarly weakened and divided. Angel and I designed them to counter-balance one another, and the balance is now out of wack...
The elan are an efficient machine very much divorced from the pollutions of "lesser" races, their ideals, and weaknesses. Given the way their society is structured, there is very little that can effectively oppose them in any way, other than direct military power or zealous faith in concerted opposition to the ideals of the forerunners. A division in the faith of the church of Izud will be exploited by the elan...
Nalassad was the mirror Callieth. Magic vs psionics, unshakable faith vs a godless hive mind, and yet they were mutually reliant upon one another. A divided human world is weak and easy to manipulate, yet the elan remain strong. Calleith might as well just enslave humanity; I can see no reason why they wouldn't, couldn't, or shouldn't.
Anyway...you guys chew on that and hammer out the solution. It's beyond my control now. I gave in and compromised, but I feel no obligation to fix the problems that result from it. This project is beginning to turn me off.
-Nasty-
P.S. I still love the concept of Callieth.
Of course you love Calleith, 'cos everything I make roxxorz.
Yeah, nate, I see your point, and given that perspective I can see why the old Nhalassad makes more sense when you take the presence of Calleith into account. Let it be understood that I do not oppose your original Nhalassad on any other basis than the potential for classic D&D adventuring. Retaining your original vision would in fact be preferable, as you are right in saying that Calleith's refraining from conquering Nhalassad is unrealistic; I merely need to know what kind of adventuring would be had in Nhalassad if it was a single cohesive entity. I certainly do not want this project to turn you off, and any elements that might do so are certainly subject to revision if need be.
So basically, what do adventurers do in (your) Nhalassad?
PS:
DMing in Sulos in 2 weeks!
PPS:
Do not let this project fail, if for no other reason than that my precious Calleith R0><><0RZ like radiocative marmlaade adn pwns teh n00bz and I don't want it to go to waste!
Adventures in my Nhalassad would often have beeen drawn along lines such as rebels vs. imperials, religion vs. psionics, old values vs. new values, and law vs. chaos. Here are some samples:
1. protecting/ambushing trade caravans
2. exploring and charting lands changed since the convergence
3. rescuing wrongfully accused criminals
4. staving off imperial witch hunts
5. stealing from imperial tax collectors
6. organized crime (protection fees, fencing, smuggling, and so on)
7. mediating disputes between different political or religious parties
8. hunting down wandering monsters
9. espionage/sabotage/infiltration
10. hunting down dangerous renegades
11. Provincial rebellion/imperial resistance
12. hate based crimes
13. mob justice
14. sewer crawls
15. train-jackings
16. martial arts/duelist tournaments
17. griffon races
18. war and all that potentially comes with it
19. diplomacy/foreign relations missions
20. capturing criminals/rebels/sympathizers
I'm sure I could go on and on and on...but the point is moot. Eric doesn't like the Roman provincial feel, or the semi-modern feel, or the concept of planes converging. He gave in let me keep the converging primes; I gave in and let him dismantle my empire. Compromises have to be made, or this project won't work. The part that bugs me is that we see things from opposite sides on everything. It's like I'm forced to work with something that I only half-heartedly support or even like. Tht's why I haven't made anything recently...I don't like the new direction of Convergence, and my contributions are worthless, because I'm going to put in a half-hearted effort.
I'm done with this experiement. It's not even close to fun anymore, and I'm not a writer trying make a deadline, or expecting to turn a profit here. If it's not fun, I'll get nothig out of it, and I'm not doing it; I'll find something else to do with my time.
-Nasty-
P.S. Feel free to use or not use the things I wrote already.
Weel gosh darn it, this is rather disappointing, but if that is the way it's going to be then that's the way it's going to be. I suppose you and Meepo simply entered this project with rather contradictory aspirations, so maybe it was doomed from the outset. Nevertheless, the Nhalassad/Calleith dichotomy you had originally envisioned continues to inspire me, and regardless of whether you, Nate, wish to explore it, it is something I do not want to go to waste.
Meepo, if you have no intention of exploring the "lovers across time and space" idea I would heartily enjoy doing so myself (with your permission, of course), as Dystopia is undergoing somewhat of a paradigm shift in that particular direction, and any ideas you might have concerning it would be fantastic.
In fact... you will both be PMed shortly so that I may plunder your brains for the juicy intellectual sweetmeats that dwell therein. Bon appétit!
Quote from: nastynateCompromises have to be made, or this project won't work. The part that bugs me is that we see things from opposite sides on everything. It's like I'm forced to work with something that I only half-heartedly support or even like. Tht's why I haven't made anything recently...I don't like the new direction of Convergence, and my contributions are worthless, because I'm going to put in a half-hearted effort.
I'm done with this experiement. It's not even close to fun anymore, and I'm not a writer trying make a deadline, or expecting to turn a profit here. If it's not fun, I'll get nothig out of it, and I'm not doing it; I'll find something else to do with my time.
Not so fast; I have a solution. You and Angel certainly agree on a lot more things about Convergence than I do, but Angel and I also like a few things that just don't make sense in Convergence. Instead of abandoning the idea of collaborating altogether, how about splitting up to work on two different projects?
You and Angel could make Convergence with two competing empires and not have to compromise anything. In the mean time, Angel and I could develop my prefered version of psionics in a different setting. That way, we can all still reap the benefits of working in collaborations, but you and I needn't butt heads.
Angel wouldn't even have to do any extra work in this set-up, because his existing Dystopia setting already uses the magic/psionics system that I have always wanted to see implemented in a campaign; I'd be more than happy contributing to that project in whatever way Angel thinks most approriate.
That way, Convergence can live on as two balanced, competing empires, but I can still play with some of the contrary themes that I enjoy. Win-win for everyone.
- Eric. -
P.S. Don't get me wrong. I actually do like pseudo-Roman and pseudo-modern settings. I just don't want to cannibalize settings that I've already worked on, any more than you want to cannibalize Sulos. My primary objection was not that your ideas weren't cool. To the contrary: they were cool enough that I've used them before, so I was just looking to do something a little bit different.
Sounds like a good plan Eric. I'm glad we had the chance to resolve this like civilized human beings.
-Nasty-
Quote from: nastynateSounds like a good plan Eric. I'm glad we had the chance to resolve this like civilized human beings.
And here I was, hoping it would come down to gladiatorial combat.
:fencing: :jedi: :chair:
But yes, I'm glad we could work it out.
:chair: :chair: :chair: :chair: JERRY! JERRY!
Whatever you work on I'll be sure to follow it and offer feedback here and there. I really enjoy the things you write about, even if our own material is not perfectly compatable. Make sure to post either here or at WotC, so I can watch the "Love Story Across Time and Space," develop.
-Nasty-
Eric, you beat me to it, as thay was to be my suggestion. However, I am not sure Dystopia would be the best forum for our ideas, as while it does incorporate elements of perception-based reality it is still very much a realistic setting. A far better arena would be Eternal, an idea I've had longer than Dystopia but which has gone unused. It could be classified as sci-fi, but is certainly better described as epic, intergalactic, surrealist fantasy. For an idea about the setting's nature, check out the rpg Nobilis; the concepts are similar.
Of course, input into Dystopia would certainly be appreciated, but the seting will be put on hiatus (the gaming group that I DM Dystopia for is temporarily dissembled).