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The Archives => Campaign Elements and Design (Archived) => Topic started by: Matt Larkin (author) on June 22, 2007, 05:53:19 PM

Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on June 22, 2007, 05:53:19 PM
I've made some updates and have the system and some world info on the wiki (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Echoes_of_Dreams). I'm hoping to run this soon, so I'm eager for some additional feedback.

I have made some changes since the pdf; the wiki version is current. Among other things, I toned down the fatigue rules to make bookkeeping less and streamlined the advantage/disadvantage mechanic.

The Echoes of Dreams
EoD is a game system designed for a specific fairytale world (Roaa). Beneath Roaa is the Dreamworld--men can dream themselves there, and the faeries in the dreamworld can dream themselves to Roaa. The basic principle of the system is that all creatures are embodied by an element (the classic, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Light, and Shadow). There aren't different races or classes, but your element can affect what things you are best at and what magic you can use. It is a high magic world and a system I hope can be used for fairytale games. Enjoy.

[spoiler=Original Post from 2007][note]If you would like to have a look, I welcome it.  The pdf should be accessible here:  The Echoes of Dreams (http://members.cox.net/mattlarkin5/Echoes%20of%20Dreams.pdf)

The map: as a jpg (http://members.cox.net/mattlarkin5/Roaa_low.jpg), or in pdf (http://members.cox.net/mattlarkin5/Roaa.pdf) (you have to zoom in a lot on this one.

I don't intend to publish this, but I thought it might be of some interest to the community.[/note]
Back when I had only just begun to conceive of Kishar (around 1999?), I threw myself into another project; this project became the dark fantasy world of Roaa.  For this world and the campaign I was designing for it, I created a new game system: Echoes of Divinity (Queleschi).  Friends and I played out the game, which lasted about 2 years (real time, 5 years in game).  Over the course of the game I learned a lot about design and made modifications.

By the end, my interest in the project had waned as I had begun to truly develop Kishar in depth.  However, I had wanted to revise the system and world.  Most of you know how it is when you get such an itch; it rolls around in the back of your mind, distracting your other projects, until you finally get it all down.

For some time, I have also been wanting to create fairytale setting.  The two seemed to merge nicely together.  I re-created Roaa, now a flat world on a disc.  Beneath the world, was its mirror, Zoein.  Roaa was the human world, Zoein the world of the supernatural.  Later, while I was considering the connection between these realms, I stumbled across WitchHunt's latest Nightmare rendition, and that (or at least a few lines in his cosmology) inspired me towards my answer.  Beings in either world can dream themselves to the other.

The system itself is heavily influence by The Riddle of Steel (the greatest RPG ever!), and also by The Burning Wheel, and to lesser extent Shadowrun and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.  Credit to the fine authors of those games, and to WitchHunt/Troll for the inspiration that finally allowed me to complete the project.

A forum wouldn't be the ideal medium for posting an entire game system (better for brainstorming, I'd say), but I'll leave a link to the pdf, and maybe eventually add some mention in the Wiki (I don't know much about Wikis, really).

The basic principle of the system is that all creatures are embodied by an element (the classic, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Light, and Shadow).  There aren't different races or classes, but your element can affect what things you are best at and what magic you can use.  It is a high magic world and a system I hope can be used for fairytale games.  Enjoy.[/spoiler]
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: SA on June 22, 2007, 08:27:21 PM
QuoteThe system itself is heavily influence by The Riddle of Steel (the greatest RPG ever!), and also by The Burning Wheel, and to lesser extent Shadowrun and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Credit to the fine authors of those games, and to WitchHunt/Troll for the inspiration that finally allowed me to complete the project.
Ooooh.  Your influences are of an impeccable breed. I am thusly hooked.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Numinous on June 22, 2007, 10:47:43 PM
It seems everyone is working on fairy-tale wolrds these days.  Good thing everyone here knows originality doesn't exist, or I might look like a copy-cat!

Anyway Pk, I'll download and look at this once I'm home and on a cable-connection again.  My grandparent's house has dial-up. *shudder*
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Tybalt on June 23, 2007, 09:55:38 AM
Interesting, I too will download it and read it over the next couple of days.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Ravenspath on June 23, 2007, 11:33:45 AM
Very nicely put together. I haven't had a chance to read it all, but I really like what I have read so far. I really like how you used the elements and tied them each to for specific skills for doing magic. Maybe I just missed it (or haven't read it yet) but how easy is it to pick the other skills for your element? Or would most mages focus on one or two skills for that element.

The Heroic Traits section seems to balanced and well thought out. But I/m not a crunch guy.

Prophecies! I love prophecies! More on the prophecies.

Very easy to read and the format is very clean and crisp. Look forward to seeing more!
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on June 23, 2007, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: RavenspathVery nicely put together. I haven't had a chance to read it all, but I really like what I have read so far. I really like how you used the elements and tied them each to for specific skills for doing magic. Maybe I just missed it (or haven't read it yet) but how easy is it to pick the other skills for your element? Or would most mages focus on one or two skills for that element.
Thanks Raven.

As far as picking skills goes, you get some skills from whatever Backgrounds you choose (see the Building a Hero chapter).  You can purchase additional skills at a cost of 1 BP each, per rank (to a maximum of 4 starting ranks).

Skills aren't really tied to your element (other than the spellcasting skills), though abilities are.  However, each element has strong and weak skills.  Strong skills give you a TN bonus, and weak skills a TN penalty.  You don't automatically get these skills, but if you have them, these modifiers can make a moderate difference.

There are 2 examples of character building in the Examples chapter at the end of the book.  My hope is that that chapter can make the whole process pretty straight-forward.

Because skills advance automatically through use, I'd say it's worthwhile to have a lot (it's not like they cost anything after the initial BP or Hero Pool to unlock them).  Strictly speaking, I would expect almost all characters to have magical abilities (eventually), so I wouldn't call characters "mages," though I know what you mean.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on June 27, 2007, 11:19:58 AM
So a little basic information on Roaa (Zoein is a physical mirror, though some buildings exist only on one).

[spoiler=Danger Huge Map]
 (http://members.cox.net/mattlarkin5/Roaa_low.jpg)
[/spoiler]
I also added links to a map in the main post.

The world is flat, with the oceans running off the edge of the world.  Zoein is on the flip side of the disc.  With the barriers (created accidentally when the Dariszun were cast into the Void) between the worlds failing, contact is now possible.  Theoretically, sailing off the edge of one would dump you on the edge of the other (but it would probably also destroy your ship and maybe kill you...).

The world gets warmer as you draw closer to the edge.  The coastline closest to the edge is called the Tropical Rim.  The sun and 2 moons orbit the world, creating night/day and the tides.

At the heart of the world is Heartspire Mountain, from which four rivers run.  All the water in Roaa is fed by theses four rivers.  They run eternally (fairytale worlds don't need to follow laws of logical water systems).  Around Heartspire Mountain is the Frozen Tundra - the coldest location in the world, growing colder as one draw nearer the mountain.  Atop this mountain the Ancients built their ultimate fortress, Quintesin.

Around the Frozen Tundra lies a great plateau called Ovec Mesa.  Ovec Mesa is encircled by branches of the four great rivers connecting them, called the Circle River.

Roaa is roughly divided into East and West, with a great nation and several minor nations in each.  In the East, the great nation is Loindai.  In the West, Solein, land of the moon, oldest nation in the world.

Sozydat does, the desert land, does not clearly fall into East or West.  Flosuar, land of Viking-like people, is generally considered part of the East.

Quote from: The WestSolein - kingdom of the moon
Andair - tropical paradise; ally of Solein
Marmai - oppressive expansionist regime
Jyndai - tower city in the Wild Lands
Okael - Asian-themed archipelago
Nurya - India-themed Rim country warring with Marmai
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Ravenspath on June 27, 2007, 06:42:49 PM
PK, I have to say one thing about your map.

Oh my #@%@# god! That is so cool!

How did you design it! It looks so fantastic and I love how you described that it gets warmer towards the edge.

Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Numinous on June 27, 2007, 07:19:14 PM
By downloading and opening the map in a picture-viewing program, I'm able to see it on a large scale, and I am forced to agree with Ravenspath.  

The construction as a fictional world is clearly visual, and yet it appears organic in a way that many maps do not.  This is fitting for a fairy-tale world, good job.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Hibou on June 27, 2007, 08:28:01 PM
I'm liking what I'm seeing here (that map is wicked) and am glad I could help push you in the right direction.

I'll be keeping an eye on this.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on June 28, 2007, 09:04:23 AM
I made the map using layers in Photoshop.  Each landform was mostly solid color, but applied filters and styles change the look (sometimes several times).  It is the third map I have made in this style (first was the Kishar map on my website, second Alsa-Eru for Ishmayl), and I think I've been slightly improving with each (for example, Ishy pushed me to improve my forest style and I like this one better than the flatter one I used for Kishar).

Some aspects of this map were more difficult than past attempts, such as the waterfalls of Ovec Mesa (which I'm still not totally thrilled with, but I hope it's clear what they're supposed to be).

It takes time and patience, but it's not really all that difficult.  I think I made a mistake in working with so high a resolution, though.  It makes the file size huge.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Numinous on June 28, 2007, 11:57:08 AM
Quote from: Phoenix KnightI think I made a mistake in working with so high a resolution, though. It makes the file size huge.
I'm fairly sure that this can be resolved by exporting the file from PS as a jpeg, and lowering the quality to a reasonable amount.  Since most viewers will be looking at the map at a much smaller scale anyway, things shouldn't be affected too greatly.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Tybalt on June 28, 2007, 12:03:51 PM
I've finally read through a good chunk of your pdf so I'm ready to comment at last.

First of all, it is probably one of the best organized games I've ever seen. Almost every game system known follows some rather cumbersome models that make my head ache every time something new and interesting comes out--I have to admit that I've sort of stuck with 2E for D&D though I make some use of 3.5 simply because I have little choice in the matter for that reason. However I liked reading yours. You didn't have to flip back and forth to figure out how to get magical powers, you found all the descriptions of actions in the same part of the book and so on. Made it easy to read and comfortable to look for information in.

Two: while in a way it seems like typical fantasy I like that it is a storytelling game principally that does not have all the baggage that say Glorantha has with it or the difficulty of being tied heavily to already known stories like Conan or Elric--you would feel free to make of it what you wished.

Three: I could already imagine one of my players enjoying 'tailoring' a character's abilities. He tends to prefer to do that even if it might mean not taking a power that would actually make his character tougher--he prefers to have experiences within the game or background determine what a character is like. Your system is pretty much made for that kind of thing, and for a gm with players that prefer story to powergaming it is very good.

Finally I love the map.

Phoenix, I may come up with some actual criticisms soon but I found it overall a pleasant surprise so far, not because I'm surprised at your ability but because of my experiences over the last few years with supposedly new rpgs.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Thanuir on June 28, 2007, 01:08:58 PM
I have around 2/3 of the PDF (and reading on). The influence of BW is quite clear. I'll read it through and offer more detailed comments after that.

Are you interested in critique concerning the game?
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on June 28, 2007, 02:17:03 PM
Quote from: Rose Of MontagueI'm fairly sure that this can be resolved by exporting the file from PS as a jpeg, and lowering the quality to a reasonable amount.  Since most viewers will be looking at the map at a much smaller scale anyway, things shouldn't be affected too greatly.
Yeah, I tried this, but it made the text a little hard to read, so I left it the way it is.

Quote from: Tybalt<snip>
Two: while in a way it seems like typical fantasy I like that it is a storytelling game principally that does not have all the baggage that say Glorantha has with it or the difficulty of being tied heavily to already known stories like Conan or Elric--you would feel free to make of it what you wished.
<snip>
Thank you for the compliments.

I have a pretty definite vision of the world in mind, based on the original world, but I don't really have time to post a lot of details on it.  That said, I would like to think it works fine for others to use the world as they choose, as you say, making what they wish from it.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Thanuir on June 29, 2007, 08:32:25 AM
I like the three prime rules. Good work.

The main resolution system has three ways of affecting the probabilities (adding dice, TN and threshold). This basically means that it is hard to estimate the effects of modifiers.
I think it is generally unnecessary to have more than one way of altering the probability. This is especially true when the different methods are not used in different circumstances (e.g. only hero points/magic can change the TN, everything else alters threshold).


The elemental types probably make more sense in context. They are basically quite unrestrictive classes.


The ancients are a convenient way of adding high-powered loot to the game. That may or may not be the intention, but that was the first thing that came to mind. (If the requires high-powered loot, like normal D&D does, using ancient cultures of great power is very smart, of course.)


Dream pool is good. It has a distinct flavour and the mechanics support that flavour, as they should.
Echo pool is alright. Luck seems a bit redundant, setting-wise, and the uses could be folded into the two other pools fairly easily.
(Explaining that MVP means most valuable player might also be useful.)


If I didn't miss anything, skills and abilities are not combined in any way when making skill checks or learning the skills. Is there a reason for this, or did I misunderstand?


The backgrounds are a working simplification of BW's lifepaths. They do lose all that juicy setting stuff that BW lifepaths inherently have, which is a pity.


The resource costs for holdings and land seem a bit low. This will probably encourage players to take them, which, I presume, is the intended effect.


Contacts is a good mechanic. But why no clause of enmity (a failed check may lead to finding the right person, who just happens to hate your guts)?


There are lots of little rules for fighting under water and such. Can't they simply be handled with common sense and application of the favourable/unfavourable condition modifiers?


Weapon reach is brilliant.

Fatigue seems to be a lot of bookkeeping, especially in longer fights. Is it worth the trouble?

I doubt all those conditions require an entry. Most are common sense, and can be handled on case-by-case basis.

The eonomy rules seem functional. I'd suggest creating clear rules for selling stuff, too.



All in all, good game. I see influence of BW, TROS and D&D, personally.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on June 29, 2007, 01:13:02 PM
Thanks for the interest.  The input is insightful and should be helpful to those trying to alter the system for their needs or make simple house rules.

At present, I can offer only brief response to each point.  I will give my reasoning for why it was the way it was first, then how I think it might be house-ruled to address your concerns.

Quote from: ThanuirThe main resolution system has three ways of affecting the probabilities (adding dice, TN and threshold). This basically means that it is hard to estimate the effects of modifiers.
I think it is generally unnecessary to have more than one way of altering the probability. This is especially true when the different methods are not used in different circumstances (e.g. only hero points/magic can change the TN, everything else alters threshold).
The elemental types probably make more sense in context. They are basically quite unrestrictive classes.[/quote]The ancients are a convenient way of adding high-powered loot to the game. That may or may not be the intention, but that was the first thing that came to mind. (If the requires high-powered loot, like normal D&D does, using ancient cultures of great power is very smart, of course.)[/quote]Dream pool is good. It has a distinct flavour and the mechanics support that flavour, as they should.
Echo pool is alright. Luck seems a bit redundant, setting-wise, and the uses could be folded into the two other pools fairly easily.
(Explaining that MVP means most valuable player might also be useful.)[/quote]If I didn't miss anything, skills and abilities are not combined in any way when making skill checks or learning the skills. Is there a reason for this, or did I misunderstand?[/quote]The backgrounds are a working simplification of BW's lifepaths. They do lose all that juicy setting stuff that BW lifepaths inherently have, which is a pity.[/quote]The resource costs for holdings and land seem a bit low. This will probably encourage players to take them, which, I presume, is the intended effect.[/quote]Contacts is a good mechanic. But why no clause of enmity (a failed check may lead to finding the right person, who just happens to hate your guts)?[/quote]There are lots of little rules for fighting under water and such. Can't they simply be handled with common sense and application of the favourable/unfavourable condition modifiers?[/quote]Fatigue seems to be a lot of bookkeeping, especially in longer fights. Is it worth the trouble?[/quote]I doubt all those conditions require an entry. Most are common sense, and can be handled on case-by-case basis.[/quote]The eonomy rules seem functional. I'd suggest creating clear rules for selling stuff, too.[/quote]All in all, good game. I see influence of BW, TROS and D&D, personally.[/quote]
TRoS most strongly, BW secondly, Shadowrun thirdly.  I would not claim D&D as an influence; any similarities are due either to SR's few similarities to the game, or the necessity of rules within a fantasy game system for dealing with certain circumstances.

Glad to see such a strong interest.  It gives me a few thoughts on perhaps improving it some time in the distant future.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on July 03, 2007, 10:20:27 AM
This will probably be a last update; I want to give a general overview of what the Dreamworld is like and its inhabitants.  It is not an exhaustive list, just a starting point.

Zoein - The Dreamworld
Zoein is a mirror of Roaa, however, there are some differences.  For example, most buildings exist only on Roaa, though a few are found in both, and in some cases, only Zoein.  Also, a few areas, such as Starfall Vale in Azeldon, have geographic differences resulting from cataclysms during the Kosharitun.

As far as the inhabitants of the world, they fall into three general categories:
Dreams - These beings side with the Sakiszun (Light Gods)
Nightmares - The servants of the Dariszun (Dark Gods)
Rogues - Dreamworlders that take no sides (pretty rare and usually non-sentient).  I might like a better name for this, but I cannot think of one at the moment.

In addition to alleigance, creatures have creature types (a concept probably familiar to fans of most games).

Animals
Animals are like their Roaa counterparts, except that they have human-like vocal cords and can speak.  Most only speak the faerie language or Kuli (the language of the Ancients).  Most species are Dreams, though a few are Nightmares.

Dragons
Reptilian behemoths created by the Dariszun - all Nightmares.  Sub-divided into several categories.  Most dragons are not sentient, but possess cunning and cruelty.

True Dragons - classic western-style dragons.  Two types exist for each element.  For example, for air, I use Mist and Thunder Dragons.  Possess almost-human-level intelligence, though few can speak.
Drakes - small winged dragons ranging from 6' - 18' long.
Serpents - land or sea-based legless dragons.  Also covers Dune-like sandworm dragons!
Behemoths - quadruped, wingless dragons covered in shaggy fur.  Not smart, but great for running around and smashing things.
Hydras - the classic.  I make one type of each element.  Mega regeneration, heads regrowing, all the good stuff.

Faeries
Faeries are perhaps the most important category, making up the bulk of both sides in terms of influence.  There are roughly equal numbers on each side, but specific faerie species determines allegiance.

Queleszun - The gods, now divided into Sakiszun and Dariszun.  Both are now gone, but the Dariszun are trying to return.  No word on the Sakiszun.  Come in any element, much like humans.

Pixies - Tiny (6") people with iridescent wings, usually named after flowers.  Dreams.  Because of weak physical abilities they rely on magic and cunning.  Come in all elements.

Stalker - Invisible Lights that prey on any that draw near.  Rogue.

Animal-Folk - All kinds of animals come in humanoid form.  Frogmen, catfolk, wolfmen, bearmean, and so forth.  Most are dreams, a few nasty ones are nightmares.

Satyrs - Dreams.  Musical abilities, dancing.  Earths.

Goblins - Nightmares.  Five-foot-tall green-skinned, pointy-toothed, freaks.  Come in all elements.  Very numerous.

Trolls - Nightmares.  Come in all elements, but there are vast physical differences between them.  For example, flame trolls are literally on fire, while rock trolls literally have rock-like skin.  Trolls are the elite of the Nightmares; very difficult for a human to defeat, but not very bright.

Mermaids - Dreams.  Kindly fish people with a love of combing their hair and singing!


Monsters
Covers everything from mythical beasts, to bizarre animal combinations (such as griffins, but also frogbears, spiderbears, batbears, donkeymonkeys, ottermonkeys, moosebears, batlizards, and any others desired).  Also covers elementally-charged animals, such as flaming baboons and aqua wolves (in such cases, the elemental charge determines element, not the element of the base animal).

Most monsters are Nightmares, with a few important exceptions (unicorns, gargoyles, and pegasi are Dreams).  A few non-sentient ones are rogues (griffins, krakens, etc.).

This category also covers most other bizarre, beastly creatures.


Spirits
Covers elementals, wood spirits, sea spirits, and the like.  Allegiance varies by type, but most (including all elementals) are rogue.  Also covers en-spirited objects, such as Stone Guardians (walking statues) or Ice Guardians (walking ice sculptures).


Undead
Pretty rare, usually covering angry ghosts.  The Dariszun sometimes create zombies/skeletons for a good scare, or revenants to do the dirty work.  Almost always Nightmares, with a few exceptions (Ghost Wolves are Dreams, for example).
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Tybalt on July 04, 2007, 10:24:53 AM
I like that dreamworld. Combination of Narnia and the ages of legend. Phoenix you have a good way of putting things together in a neat but complex package.

Out of curiousity is there a sort of sense of overall conflict with some of these dreamworlds? Are they threatened?

One concept from the game Kult is the idea of dreamlords, people who have mastered the art of dreaming and creating or manipulating worlds. This idea also exists in H.P. Lovecraft. Not sure if you are familiar with it.

Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on July 04, 2007, 03:48:28 PM
I forgot the animal-people faeries.  A good place for my classic frogmen and for bear-mean, now ported from Kishar!

Quote from: TybaltOut of curiousity is there a sort of sense of overall conflict with some of these dreamworlds? Are they threatened?

One concept from the game Kult is the idea of dreamlords, people who have mastered the art of dreaming and creating or manipulating worlds. This idea also exists in H.P. Lovecraft. Not sure if you are familiar with it.
surreal world, albeit briefly.
Title: The Echoes of Dreams
Post by: Matt Larkin (author) on November 20, 2009, 05:01:46 PM
I've made some updates and have the system and some world info on the wiki (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Echoes_of_Dreams). I'm hoping to run this soon, so I'm eager for some additional feedback.

I have made some changes since the pdf; the wiki version is current. Among other things, I toned down the fatigue rules to make bookkeeping less and streamlined the advantage/disadvantage mechanic.