I've never really liked the D&D version of magic, it seemed flat to me. I have ideas, but i'm scattered and need help.
I was thinking breaking magic up differently. I want to seperate it by how one actesses the powers. Writen, Ritual, nature, stone, energy, elemental, and regular.
[spoiler=Writen]Runes, Gliphs, Griphs, and other such writen magics[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Ritual]The grand ceromony of magic, usally group magic, and devine casters[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Nature]The use of plant and animal parts to effect things[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Stone]The use of rocks, stones, and jems to effect things[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Energy]Using personal or universal energies to effect things[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Elemental]Calling on the elemental powers of Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Law/Knowlage, Chaos/Darkness, Light, Spirit/Energy, and Balence to efect things[/spoiler]
I was also thinking that the different styles could be stacked to change te effect of the others.
I know how it works for story line, but no clue if can work as machinics.
In story line different races have an easyer time with some styles of magic. One can know many different styles, but will use the best style for the job. (crafting an amulet of portection could using writen magic and the right stone and metal for the use.) So, diferent styles could be used together to strengthen or alter a spell.
All the help and ideas would be wnderful, thanks.
What kind of system are you thinking of? Spells per day? Spell Points / Mana? A unique system for each style of magic?
You could get all of this flavour into the standard DnD casting system.
Written would be based on Scribing Scrolls.
Ritual would have a long casting duration, and have a total caster level requirement divided between multiple parties.
Nature, Stone, Energy and Elemental spells could all just be standard spells, but with extra flavour added in. Think different schools of magic.
Describe how you want it to work for story. As it is now, this seems like a way you could possibly re-divide the schools, rather than something that needs a new system.
Forgotten Realms has rune magic. Storing magic in stones and gems could be a different way of making potions in your setting; instead of putting a spell in a drink, you put a spell in a little gem or rock, depending on the level of the spell.
I've never liked the D&D version of magic either. So I don't use it.
Instead of different schools, you talking access. Which is more my language. Are you thinking of using spell slots (per day), mana/spell points?
:blah:
(here comes babble)
I like your breakdown. I think Stone might go under elemental, however. Also, I use ritual magic in my Celtrician campaign, but it merely allows casters to cast more powerful spells with time and preparation.
I use Spirit, Artificer, Animist, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Order, Chaos, Necromantic, Mentalist, Retoative, Life, Death and Shade as my power sources/disciplines. Spirit is the energy the caster provides. Simple spells draw form one other discpline, more poerful workings use a number of sources.
Although I quickly got a grasp on the concept of magic "schools", I never understood why such a distinction was really necessary at all.
In the WCS there are no "schools" or other magical categories. Either it is magical, or it isn't. The only remotely similar distinction is made by what technique a given magical effect was created.
LordVreeg: You and I seem to be on the same wave length. The main reason that stone isn't elemental is because nature isn't and trying to tell the dwarves that they are using elemental magic doesn't go over well with them.
Pellanor: I'd like it to fit in nicely to D&D.
Kap'n Xeviat: Dwarves have access to writen, ritual, and stone. Eleves have access to writen, nature, energy, and elemental. Halfling have access to writen, and elemental. Gnome have access to writen, stone, and elemental. Half-Orcs have access to ritual, and nature.
Words have power, nature has power, stones have power, energy is power, elements have power, rituals have power mainly because the peformers says it does. the different "powers" stack.
Quote from: shadowlsI've never really liked the D&D version of magic, it seemed flat to me.
I have ideas, but i'm scattered and need help.[/quote]I was thinking breaking magic up differently. I want to seperate it by how one actesses the powers. Writen, Ritual, nature, stone, energy, elemental, and regular.[/quote]Runes, Gliphs, Griphs, and other such writen magics[/quote]The use of plant and animal parts to effect things[/quote]Using personal or universal energies to effect things[/quote]Calling on the elemental powers of Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Law/Knowlage, Chaos/Darkness, Light, Spirit/Energy, and Balence to efect things[/quote]I was also thinking that the different styles could be stacked to change te effect of the others.[/quote]One can know many different styles, but will use the best style for the job. (crafting an amulet of portection could using writen magic and the right stone and metal for the use.) So, diferent styles could be used together to strengthen or alter a spell.[/quote] The thing I would watch out for would be making it too easy for a character to learn multiple types of magic and use them all at once, all the time, for a stat advantage.
I could easily see this turning into a situation where magic rarely gets used unless it's "I use every type of magic at once to get +20 on my dice roll!" business. Which really would defeat the point of your differentiation of magic into these various styles to begin with.
One other thing I noticed is that most of these methods seem to require some kind of object in order to work, and are pretty self-explanatory about what the magic-user needs to do to make the magic go. Even Ritual seems to imply the need for chanting, incense, and various complex ceremonies. All this is great, because it gives me nice visual ideas of what it's like for a person to use any of these techniques.
What about Energy and Elemental magic, though? Does a person need some kind of object/materials/focus in order to use them? Does it require a certain amount of chanting/invocation/movement? Or does the magic-user of these traditions just think about what they want to happen, and it happens? If the latter, these styles seem like the "odd styles out" when compared with the rest of your list.
though this is off the beaten track for me, being of unsound mind and of no allegiance to fit much to the tenets of D&D.
this does evoke...
[blockquote=Luminous Crayon]Looking good so far. Two big questions here: what is the difference between "energy" and "elemental" types? Also, what is "regular," how does it differ from the types you already named, and would it be possible to rename it as something more descriptive and evocative[/blockquote]
Yeah, it's all in the name.
so are we going to have ritualists? Naturalists? Elementalists? Well what about 'stonies'? Doesn't ring, does it? Might help the thought process and visualization of these casters to think what the terminology is.
Check out the thread about terms for magicians for inspiration. I agree that the D&D system is flat. I'm interested to see where this goes, although as of now i have nothing to contribute, but I'll think on it, sorry :)
So-Keher: no problem, cheers are nice also.
Luminous Crayon:
QuoteTwo big questions here: what is the difference between "energy" and "elemental" types? Also, what is "regular," how does it differ from the types you already named, and would it be possible to rename it as something more descriptive and evocative?
"energy" is more personal energy or universal energy and "elemental" is more external forces, focus on fire energys ect. I am thinking of dropping "regular" because it would be like D&D mage.
QuoteI can figure out most of your words, but what is a "griph"?
they go from left to right insted of from top to bottom.
QuoteIs this going to work out like alchemy/potionmaking using natural materials, or is this druid-style direct harnessing of nature-power?
all of the above
QuoteCould you describe this a little more? This is the main one I'm having trouble picturing. Specifically, how are "personal or universal energies" different from elemental magic as listed below, particularly when "spirit/energy" is one of the elements you list?
"personal" the focus is on extending your energy out ward and "universal" the focus is on redrecting the energy around every thing. "spirit/energy" the focus is drawing from an outside sorce and shaping it.
QuoteAre you sure about this list of elements? They don't all feel much like elements to me. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would take quite a bit of convincing to get me to regard Knowledge or Balance as an elemental force in the same way that, say, Fire is. Spirit/Energy feels too ambiguous to count as much of an element, especially when Energy Magic is its own variety of magic.
some what, i'm going with the gods and what they control.
QuoteThe thing I would watch out for would be making it too easy for a character to learn multiple types of magic and use them all at once, all the time, for a stat advantage.
that's why i'm here for help
QuoteWhat about Energy and Elemental magic, though? Does a person need some kind of object/materials/focus in order to use them? Does it require a certain amount of chanting/invocation/movement? Or does the magic-user of these traditions just think about what they want to happen, and it happens? If the latter, these styles seem like the "odd styles out" when compared with the rest of your list.
energy is a focus on the task. elemental draws the elemental subtance and shapes it to the task.
LordVreeg:
Quoteso are we going to have ritualists? Naturalists? Elementalists? Well what about 'stonies'? Doesn't ring, does it? Might help the thought process and visualization of these casters to think what the terminology is.
that's one of the reasons why i'm here.
More help guys?
Quote from: shadowlsMore help guys?
Well, if you post your more recent ideas, I will be happy to go through them with a fine-toothed comb, the same way I responded to your previous post. Until then, I've already said all that I have to say.
well, if i'm going to help with terminolgy, I'll need some more raw data, and to stick in my opinions.
Noxious creature that I am.
As I refered to earlier, I separate my spell powers as well. And different spells pull power from different sources, the more powerful the spell the more sources.
(copied post below)
[spoiler=Magic in Celtricia, behind the curtain.]
One of the primary issues I see come up in threads is the magic level question. How prevelant is magic in the mileau? Is it a 'high-magic' world, or a 'low magic' world.
But there is more to it than that. Many games have similar ratios of high, mid, and lower level magic. Another question is what is the frequnecy distribution of ability?
When I created the spell point system for Celtricia, I set it up to be as flexible as possible, so that casters can blow all their points in one spell, or cast lots of little spells, or use rituals to cast tougher spells. I also do not differentiate between divine spells and others, as they actually all come from the same sources of power.
But I also set things up so that I could have a magic rich world, but where even middle level magic is rare, and high level magic is a thing of legend. Igbar, as an example is a small walled city of thirty thousand souls. Bards, mages, sages, priests, alchemsits and other people who can manipulate the void-bound sources of spell power abound. However, There are no priests capable of casting a Full Ressurection. Raise Dead is possible at 5 of the churches.
Higher level spells obviosuly cost more spell point. But they also have unfovorable spell successes, and pull from more spell sources. All spells need spirit points, which is the trigger, the part of the spell that comes fropm the caster. Beginner spells and cantrip pull from Spirit and one or 2 other spell point sources. Tougher spells will pull from 3, 4, or even 5 sources, so a caster must be 'fluent' in many disciplines to cast any medium or higher power spells.
Amnimist SP
Artificer SP
House of Air SP
House of Chaos SP
House of Death SP
House of Earth SP
House of Fire SP
House of Life SP
House of Order SP
House of Water SP
Mentalist SP
Necromantic SP
Restorative SP
Shade Sp
Spirit SP
So, as I have stated before, we keep a level of experience in every skill for a character, and being better at a skill means have a more favorable experience modifier. So only real casters even have the capacity to cast more difficult spells. As a very, very rough rule of thumb, we can assume a caster gains 4 spell points per level in a spell skill.
Cantrips may cost 2-5 spirit points, and 1-3 points from another source.
Air Cantrip, Chilling
Spell Name Chilling
Major Sphere Air
Spell Source
Initiative 3
Range touch
Duration 20 sec
Save none
Save effect none
Spell Success 27
Area of effect 1' cube
Counter
Spirit cost 3
Earth cost 0
Water cost 0
Fire cost 0
Air cost 1
Life cost 0
Death cost 0
Law cost 0
Chaos cost 0
Restorative cost 0
Necromantic cost 0
Mentalist cost 0
Artificer cost 0
Animist cost 0
Total cost 4
Description
This cantrip decreases the tempurature of an object by 10 degrees or reduces the
tempurature to 35 degrees farenheit, whichever is lower. After the duration, the
object returns to tempurature at normal speed.
So a caster who is first level in Spirit and first level in Air can cast this, maybe even twice.
Now, let's go to a common spell everyone know in every system. This is an air variation of Magic Missle.
Air Spell, Minor Kinetic Blast
Spell Name Minor Kinetic Blast
Major Sphere Air
Spell Source
Initiative 2
Range 60
Duration inst
Save reflex-15%
Save effect neg
Spell Success 0
Area of effect
Counter
Spirit cost 10
Earth cost 0
Water cost 0
Fire cost 0
Air cost 5
Life cost 0
Death cost 0
Law cost 0
Chaos cost 0
Restorative cost 0
Necromantic cost 0
Mentalist cost 1
Artificer cost 0
Animist cost 0
Total cost 16
Description
This is one of the basic offensive spells learned by those versed in Air. It creates balls
of invisible air that smack unerringly to their target. A caster can create 1 ball per 3
levels of experience (i.e., 1 ball at levels 1-3, 2 balls at levels 4-6, etc). Each of the balls
does 5-10/d4 damage (d6+4). Armor protects 1/2.
Please note that these are totally invisible
A perfect example, as it pulls 10 Spirit points, 5 Air and 1 Mentalist. A beginning caster, just created, would probably be second or third level Spirit, and first level in 2 other disciplines, so this spell, and maybe a cantrip, would be within casting before needing to recoup points.
Now we move to the lowest of the Raise Dead variations, one used by the Churches of Madrak, Ceminiar, and Amrist.
Earth Spell, Raise the Earthen Dead
Spell Name Raise the Earthen Dead
Major Sphere Restorative
Spell Source
Initiative 24
Range touch
Duration perm
Save health+caster's level
Save effect live
Spell Success -18
Area of effect touch
Counter
Spirit cost 42
Earth cost 16
Water cost 0
Fire cost 0
Air cost 0
Life cost 8
Death cost 0
Law cost 0
Chaos cost 0
Restorative cost 20
Necromantic cost 0
Mentalist cost 0
Artificer cost 0
Animist cost 0
Total cost 86
Description
This powerful spell takes a creature that has sunk beyond life and infuses them with
the many spirits of life, bringing them back from beyond the pale.
The person cannot have been dead more than 1 day per 2 levels of the caster, and all
body parts must be accounted for.
The newly raised will be very weak, and will have only one hp. They will take 8
days+2 days per hp to recover their strength. And the character must make a health
CC+ the caster's level, or remain dead, and be unraisable without a ressurection spell.
The caster must use holy water, and at least 3 holy candles tpo cast this spell, and
must know the target's full, real name.
The spell successs is lower, and with 42 Spirit points needed, 16 Earth, 8 Life, 20 Restorative, we are talking 9-12th level in Spirit, 3rd to 5th in Earth, second in Life, and 4th to 6th in Restorative.
So what you have in Celtricia is a land where magic is not unusual at all, where Head Chef's and master Stonemasons use lesser magics on their important jobs, and where minor casters of all stripes are seen regularly. However, greater spell use is extrememly rare and wonderful. [/spoiler]
So I have to know what type of system you envision in terms of tracking how many spells of what power can be done a day and how fast the spell power returns.
Based on what I would do (and I am a difficult freak of a GM, so take this for what it is) I would break your energy skill into it's 2 separate components, personal (what I call spirit) and channeler (ability to channel outside energy).
Spirit should be a component of any spell, as it is the personal energy to trigger a spell.
I also have to say that the way you describe ritual and written, they are not spell types in and of themselves but ways to manipulate energy (tools), whereas the others seem to be separate energies. You might want to classify them as such.