I'm gathering helpers for my official house-rules/edition changes. While these will be used in my setting, I don't intend to make them incompatible with core or other "normal" settings ("normal" meaning settings in which the builder doesn't heavily alter the classes or other mechanical rules of the game, other than maybe picking and choosing which races/classes/sources are allowed). Here is a list of the areas I'd like to address:
Abilities
*Balance Charisma against the other scores. I'm currently leaning towards introducing Action/Hero/Force/Void points into standard D&D, and somehow using Charisma as an associated score (either through having Charisma determine points allocated per level/day, or having Charisma modifier affect such point rolls).
Races
*Balance the Half-Elf and Half-Orc. These are most important to me. I've created a version of the Orc for use in my own setting, but I'm not sure if it is generic enough. I'll share it in a later post.
*Balance the Dwarf and Gnome. These races seem much more powerful than all the others. Either everyone should be raised to their power, or they should be reduced to everyone else's. They get a lot of abilities, not all of which are useful to multiple classes, but they still feel overloaded.
*Introduce a culture system. Players will choose their race, and the race/culture they grew up with. Abilities will be set aside as racial (biological) and cultural (learned).
Classes
*Balance the Fighter against the Barbarian and Paladin.
*Balance the Sorcerer against the Wizard (Unearthed Arcana's spontaneous Cleric and Druid variant applied to a Wizard creates a more powerful character than the Sorcerer, for instance).
Skills
*Consolidate skill lists in a way that makes total sense. I'll be looking at the SAGA condenses and exploring what seems odd.
*Expand on skill "special abilities" (like how 5 ranks in tumble grants more AC when fighting defensively), possibly pilfering ideas from the Skill Tricks.
Feats
*Balance perceived weak feats (Dodge, skill feats, ect.) against potent feats. Weak feats will include feats which are rarely selected by players, or feats which are often regretted by players, in addition to feats that people cry out simply as weak.
*Expand on current feat trees to cover high levels.
Description
*Create a simple system for determining character height and weight based on their physical ability scores. This will help for later combat options, such as throwing rules (if a creature's weight is largely determined by their strength, muscle mass, then an opposed strength check would be a simple way of determining throwing distance).
Equipment
*Balance and simplify armors.
*Possibly introduce Armor as DR rules in a way that is both simple, realistic, and balanced, and explore areas of the game that it will change.
Combat
*Simplify grappling rules.
*Improve under used combat rules (bull rush and overrun).
*Improve two-weapon fighting rules.
*Explore possible new combat options (throws, called shots, ect.).
Spells
*Explore problematic spells and potential fixes.
*Create a new, point template based Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange spell. For instance, Alter Self would grant 1 point per caster level, max ? points, that could be used to buy abilities off of a table that would apply to your base form (such as size alterations, ability increases, natural weapons/armor). Each subsequent spell would grant other abilities on the table, higher max point caps, longer durations, or other changes.
*Explore my MP system for possible abuses.
The intention of the project is not to fundamentally change the game (except possibly my added ability scores/armor/defense changes), but to tweak the game with all the experiences we've had over our time gaming.
I'll be adding placeholder posts for each of the above topic headers (the bolded PHB chapters above). Please, at the start of each post, make note of the issue you'd wish to discuss. I may have to make individual threads for issues if they grow too large.
Thanks for everyone's interest.
Abilities
Races
Classes
SkillsXev's Skills 1.0| Current (3.5) | Changes (Xev's) |
| Appraise | Craft/Knowledge (Untrained/Trained) |
| Autohypnosis | Concentration (Trained) |
| Balance | Acrobatics |
| Bluff | Bluff |
| Climb | Athletics |
| Concentration | Concentration |
| Craft | Craft |
| Decipher Script | Knowledge |
| Diplomacy | Diplomacy |
| Disguise | Craft/Bluff |
| - | Endurance |
| Escape Artist | Sleight of Hand |
| Forgery | Craft |
| Gather Information | Gather Information* |
| Handle Animal | Handle Animal |
| Heal | Heal |
| Hide | Stealth |
| Intimidate | Intimidate |
| Jump | Athletics |
| Knowledge | Knowledge |
| Listen | Perception |
| Move Silently | Stealth |
| Open Lock | Disable Device (Trained) |
| Perform | Perform |
| Profession | Profession |
| Ride | Ride |
| Search | Perception |
| Sense Motive | Will Save/Perception |
| Sleight of Hand | Sleight of Hand |
| Speak Language | Speak Language* |
| Spellcraft | Spellcraft |
| Spot | Perception |
| Survival | Survival |
| Swim | Athletics |
| Tumble | Acrobatics (Trained) |
| Use Magic Device | Use Magic Device |
| Use Rope | Grapple |
Explanations*Appraise was mixed with Craft and Knowledge because someone who knows how to make something should be able to value it, and pure Appraisal should be a form of knowledge.
*Balance was merged with Tumble because everyone who knows how to tumble has good balance. Synergy Bonuses tried to merge this, but the need for balance in tumble is so high that they can't really be separated.
*Climb, Jump, and Swim were merged because athletes shouldn't need to be "that" intelligent to be great athletes (no offense to any athletes on the boards). Climbing and swimming largely use the same muscles (every muscle), and are both amongst the most exerting activities (aside from ... well ... I can't say it here). If they're boiled down, all three of these skills are used to move your character in a way they naturally can't (humans naturally walk and run, we don't climb, swim, or hop everywhere).
*Concentration and Autohypnosis were merged and made a Wisdom skill because concentration has no value outside of casting classes. This gives people the ability to will themselves to go on through willpower rather than hardiness (concentration vs. endurance).
*Decipher Script will be combined into a Knowledge because the skill is so infrequently taken, except for prerequisites or for synergy.
*Disguise and Forger are being merged into Crafts because that's what they are. Also, Disguise was normally a charisma based skill, but this didn't make sense when you used Disguise to apply a Disguise to someone else; so your charisma makes them a better actor? The acting aspects of Disguise are merged into Bluff (and maybe Perform: Actor), while the quality of the Disguise is a Craft.
*Escape Artist is merged with Sleight of Hand because they are both archtypically similar. Look at modern day magicians/illusionists; most of their acts are made up of these two skills. They are thematically linked in the ability to move in strange and deceptive ways. Star Wars Saga Edition has Escape Artist with Acrobatics (I can't imagine an Olympian gymnist having the ability to get out of a straight jacket), and Sleight of Hand with Stealth (I can't see a Commando knowing how to swiftly palm coins or pick pockets). The "hide an object on one's self" aspect of Sleight of Hand will be Stealth, though.
*I'm unsure about Gather Information's status. Part of me thinks it should just be merged with the other three social skills (batman seems to use Intimidate to Gather Info), but another part of me feels that Gather Information is used when you don't know who to get the information out of, while the others would be to get information out of a specific individual. Though, one could simply say that one "gather information" check made with the other social skills represents a night's questioning, freeing the need for the Gather Info skill.
*Listen, Spot, and Search are combined into Perception to free up the implied need to have a Taste/Smell skill; listen is hearing, spot is vision, and search is touch, but they don't need to be separate. Sure, many people are better with one or another, but it can be simplified as flavor-text; all of the skills are used to find hidden things.
*Move Silently and Hide are combined into Stealth because almost no character would have one and not the other. Sneaky people are simply sneaky, and with the creation of Perception, Stealth needs to be unified too. The skill is for hiding yourself or objects.
*Open Lock is combined with Disable Device because a lock is a device, and disabling it generally means opening it (since it's function is to stay closed).
*Sense Motive's merging with Will Save is a Saga change that I don't entirely agree with, but it makes sense in a way. If a wizard using an illusion to "lie" to you targets will saves, then why not a rogue using their words to "lie" to you?
*Use Rope is combined with Grapple simply because the main use of Use Rope is to bind foes, and if binding foes with yourself uses Grapple, then a grappler should be good at binding someone with something else. Combined with Saga's ability to use Dex or Str in a grapple, this makes a nice change.
Those are my preliminary ideas for changes. I'd like to discuss these changes, and get some feedback for a 1.1 version.
Also, I'd like to discuss the merits of D&D's skill point system vs. Saga's trained skill system. If you don't already know, there are no skill points in Saga. Characters get a bonus equal to 1/2 their character level on all skills, and they gain a number of trained skills at first level. Being trained in a skill grants a +5 bonus (skill focus also grants a +5 bonus) and lets you use the "trained" aspects of skills (tumble is a trained aspect of balance, for instance). I like certain aspects of both.
Feats
Description
Equipment
Combat
Spells
Perception...
Just a quick idea cuz it's still early morning for me, but perhaps Perception could tie into ranged combat or possibly it could be taken not as physical perception but more of mental perception, and effect certain schools of magic (like Divination) or divine magic.
Magic wouldn't work, because not all people use magic. Dexterity is hand-eye coordination, and it will govern all attack rolls.
I think you're stuck on Perception. The more you reduce elements of game mechanics without a fundamental change to said mechanics the more you are just splitting things. The problem with mental scores is that D&D really isn't designed much around them, so there's little to split them up about. Plus conceptually it can be very hard to understand how much of mentality to separate out. The fact that you want both a Wisdom and Perception score means something in that area.
Why do you need 4 mental scores anyway?
I don't need to have 8 scores, it is merely a desire. I can live with the standard 6. But, it is mainly so that I can have 4 physicals and 4 mentals, which will tie in with my 4 elements. Each element will have a physical and mental score:
Air: Agility and Perception
Earth: Constitution and Willpower
Fire: Strength and Charisma
Water: Dexterity and Intelligence
Again, I can do without it; that's why that is listed as one of my "possible" projects.
Now, I wouldn't mind some fundamental changes, if it could get Perception to work. For instance, I'm leaning towards making each mental ability score necessary for casters in my setting (spell slots determined by Wisdom, potency determined by Charisma, making knowledge and other skills more important for magic). So, I'm willing to make some changes.
But, that aspect should probably be ignored, for now, as it isn't very accessible to all games. In fact, adding an ability score would fundamentally change the game more than this project would really desire.
Updated the Skills section. Will update the Class section soon.
Generally speaking
Perhaps you could take a look at my Worldgate Campaign Setting for ideas. I also reworked the skills to something closely resembling SW Sage (thanks to people from the WotC message boards ^^) and I think it works out quite well.
However, I fundamentally changed the system in key aspects (like combat abilities and saves now governed by skills), and my races do not have any mathematical algorithm for "balance" or something.
But perhaps you'd find some ideas... ;)
Kap'n: I like almost all of the skill changes you've made. For the most part, they exactly mirror my own house rules for skills. But just to make things more interesting, I'm going focus on the changes you've made to which I have objections.
Quote from: Kap'n XeviatEscape Artist is merged with Sleight of Hand because they are both archtypically similar. Look at modern day magicians/illusionists; most of their acts are made up of these two skills. They are thematically linked in the ability to move in strange and deceptive ways.
Star Wars Saga Edition has Escape Artist with Acrobatics (I can't imagine an Olympian gymnist having the ability to get out of a straight jacket), and Sleight of Hand with Stealth (I can't see a Commando knowing how to swiftly palm coins or pick pockets).[/quote]Listen, Spot, and Search are combined into Perception to free up the implied need to have a Taste/Smell skill; listen is hearing, spot is vision, and search is touch, but they don't need to be separate.[/quote]Use Rope is combined with Grapple simply because the main use of Use Rope is to bind foes, and if binding foes with yourself uses Grapple, then a grappler should be good at binding someone with something else.[/quote]
But Use Rope is also used to throw grappling hooks. Also, I haven't seen many wrestlers who know anything about tying knots, but I've seen Boy Scouts and sailors (both of whom are very good with ropes) that couldn't wrestle their way out of a paper bag.
Heh, just last week I was working on doing something very similar with skills. I must say that your skill list ended up being much better than what I had.
One thing that you'll have to take a look at is the number of skills / skill points. In current 3.5 there are 32 skills, plus the different Crafts, Knowledges, Perform and Professions. With your changes there's only 20, plus CKPPs. You've reduced the overall number of skills by about 30%. Now a Human Rogue with an 18 int can get 13/32(40%) skills. With your changes that goes to 13/20 skills(65%).
You'll either have to reduce the number of skill points that classes get, increase the number of skills available, or accept that characters will be more skilled.
As for the Saga skill system, I've never heard it before now, but my initial impressions is that it would be slightly easier for character creation / level up, but overall be more work and less flexible. The big thing I see is that it would break the prerequisites for many prestige classes and feats.
Overall, I don't like it.
I didn't mean I was going to make a taste/smell skill, I just meant that when Spot, Search, and Listen are separate, it makes you wonder where Smell/Taste should go when some creatures have Scent. By combining them, you avoid the issue entirely.
We combined Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand because they aren't really great skills on their own. I can see mixing them with Acrobatics and Stealth as Saga does, it just feels odd to me.
About Use Rope; I guess that's true. But it's not a good enough skill on its own. Could you see it going into anything? Survival maybe?
Ra-Tiel, I'm currently trying to not change the system fundamentally. I understand where you're going, though, with your system.
SkillsQuote from: Kap'n Xeviat*Escape Artist is merged with Sleight of Hand because they are both archtypically similar. Look at modern day magicians/illusionists; most of their acts are made up of these two skills. They are thematically linked in the ability to move in strange and deceptive ways. Star Wars Saga Edition has Escape Artist with Acrobatics (I can't imagine an Olympian gymnist having the ability to get out of a straight jacket), and Sleight of Hand with Stealth (I can't see a Commando knowing how to swiftly palm coins or pick pockets). The "hide an object on one's self" aspect of Sleight of Hand will be Stealth, though.
I'm not so certain about this change. One involves gross physical dexterity while the other relies on fine, quick movements. It's very possible to be great at one and suck at another.
If you made these two skills more appealing to take, perhaps they wouldn't need to be combined.
Quote from: Kap'n Xeviat*Listen, Spot, and Search are combined into Perception to free up the implied need to have a Taste/Smell skill; listen is hearing, spot is vision, and search is touch, but they don't need to be separate. Sure, many people are better with one or another, but it can be simplified as flavor-text; all of the skills are used to find hidden things.
*Move Silently and Hide are combined into Stealth because almost no character would have one and not the other. Sneaky people are simply sneaky, and with the creation of Perception, Stealth needs to be unified too. The skill is for hiding yourself or objects.
*Open Lock is combined with Disable Device because a lock is a device, and disabling it generally means opening it (since it's function is to stay closed).
Agreed, agreed, agreed!
Quote from: Kap'n Xeviat*Sense Motive's merging with Will Save is a Saga change that I don't entirely agree with, but it makes sense in a way. If a wizard using an illusion to "lie" to you targets will saves, then why not a rogue using their words to "lie" to you?
ugh. That would make it the only skill that has a save instead of an opposed roll, correct? Since the saves scale differently than skills, this could present more problems than it solves.
I also think there's a difference. Will saves represent your force of will in resisting invasive mental stuff. simple lying would rely more on your perception of the person, not your force of will.
Quote from: Kap'n Xeviat*Use Rope is combined with Grapple simply because the main use of Use Rope is to bind foes, and if binding foes with yourself uses Grapple, then a grappler should be good at binding someone with something else. Combined with Saga's ability to use Dex or Str in a grapple, this makes a nice change.
so grapple is a skill? or are you making use rope a non-skill?
I think your logic is flawed. knowing how to tie a good knot that won't come undone and being able to pin someone are very different. Also, use rope covers a whole other range of actions other than binding someone up. You wouldn't call for a grapple check if someone needed to tie off a climbing rope, would you?
Thanks, everyone, for all the input. With your help, the next "version" of the skill set will be coming through.
Pellanor, the "Saga System" is the Star Wars Saga Edition. It streamlined character creation. I don't like it 100%, which is why I wanted to discuss the merits and flaws of the skill training/level bonus system. OH, and in Saga, the most skilled class only has 6 trained skills (comparable to 6 skill points per level), so I would be reducing the rogue, for instance.
Stargate, thanks again. Let me see what I can say:
*I'm growing to agree that Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand can't be merged, but alone they are weak skills. Sleight of Hand "could" be combined with Disable Device/Open Lock as possibly a general "Legerdemain" skill, but that seems weakly put together. Escape Artist could be removed and merged into Grapple; I just have a hard time seeing Escape Artist as Acrobatics (I have a friend whose a black belt martial artist, and he can tumble with the best of them; in fact, I've seen him roll out of a car going 30 MPH; but he's admitted that there's no way he could dislocate his joints to get out of some of the ridiculous things that escape artists can do).
*Sense Motive and Will Save won't work, you're right. Every other skill opposes a skill, except for Intimidate (which opposes Level+Wis). In SAGA, persuasion (Diplomacy + Intimidate) opposes Will, and Bluff opposes Will, which is where I got the idea from.
*I was considering making use rope a non-skill. You're right again. What if use rope were made part of Survival? I don't like the idea of making it a Wisdom thing, rather than a Dex thing, but it's a weak skill if left alone.
Any thoughts on the Saga skill system (skill training grants use of trained uses and a +5 bonus, and you gain +1 per 2 levels to all skills rather than having points)?
Quote from: Kap'n Xeviat[...] Any thoughts on the Saga skill system (skill training grants use of trained uses and a +5 bonus, and you gain +1 per 2 levels to all skills rather than having points)?
I personally like how they combined several skills together. Other than GURPS and Rolemaster, I don't think I know a roleplaying system with that many, partly extremely weak, skills.
However, I seriously don't like the way SAGA handles skill points. I like that every character gets the "same amount" of trained skills, but having every other skill at the same level? I'm not so keen on the available classes, so bear with me in the following example. Why should an ewok fringer get "Computer Use" on the same level as a Sabrak Jedi, assuming it's a "not-trained" skill for both?
Well, computer use is largely a trained only skill; the only two things you can do with a computer without training is "access information" (which requires the computer to be indifferent to you; computers have attitudes like NPCs that can be influenced with computer use) and "issue routine command" (requires the computer to be friendly). But that is one complaint that many have.
escape artist, if you combined that with a functioning table for contortion, would become a heck of a lot more appealing methinks.
Sleight of hand could get the same treatment, I wonder what would happen if you allow it to emulate some low-level skills with a high roll (make flame from 'nowhere,' make something actually disappear, etc.)
I've got an idea about your bluff problem; tie sense motive in with spot, listen, and search to make a universal perception skill. You've now got a skill to oppose it, and all is right with the world.
Folding use rope into survival I like. for the kind of thing you're doing, the wisdom on how to tie the knot would seem more important than how dexterous you are in doing it. and the stuff that needs dex, like throwing a grappling hook, could be a survival check+ranged attack.
I'm not sure I like mixing that much with perception; I can easily see someone who is good at seeing hidden things but isn't good at telling lies from truth. I'd be careful, because it might get awfully close to only having one skill per ability score; hah!
What good would contortion be aside from squeezing through small spots or escaping bonds?
You mean have Sleight of Hand emulate low level spells? Not sure ...
Quote from: Kap'n XeviatI'm growing to agree that Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand can't be merged, but alone they are weak skills. Sleight of Hand "could" be combined with Disable Device/Open Lock as possibly a general "Legerdemain" skill, but that seems weakly put together.
really[/i] hard time holding onto.
As for Sleight of Hand: DC 20 to steal a small object (including a light weapon) from another character's person. Period. If they succeed on their opposed roll, all they can do is watch you steal their stuff instead of missing it. Wait for that drow fighter to close for melee, Sleight of Hand him, and shoot him in the face with his own hand crossbow. Then laugh!
Plus, a good Sleight of Hand check can earn you 3d6 gold per day for performing.
I would also argue that safely handling poison should involve Sleight of Hand.
QuoteI was considering making use rope a non-skill. You're right again. What if use rope were made part of Survival? I don't like the idea of making it a Wisdom thing, rather than a Dex thing, but it's a weak skill if left alone.
Agreed. Though grappling hook use should involve Climb (that's what you're using the grapple for, after all), and some knot tying might also be Craft (trapsetting) and Profession (sailor).
I've been thinking more and more on Sleight of Hand. The act of stealing seems more similar to a disarm check, while stealth would be used to hide the check. Palming items would also be stealth. The only things I can tie in with Sleight of Hand that wouldn't fit into Stealth would be juggling and other parlor tricks that rely mostly on hand-eye coordination.
Oddly enough, I might fall back on the SAGA method; I'm just not at all comfortable with Escape Artist being part of Acrobatics (using my friends as examples).
Here's a thought I had. Speak Language and Literacy are currently special abilities that you can spend skill points to acquire. Why not extend that list?
For example, you could add Use Rope. If you have spent the skill point (or two) on it, you can now tie nots and you can also Hog Tie people by making a grapple check.
Maybe. But I'm still considering using the Saga Skill system, the system of level bonus and trained skills rather than skill points. I'd really like to discuss the pros and cons of this.
From what I've heard, I don't like the Saga system. It sounds too inflexible.
As I said before, it would completely mess up any prestige classes or feats that have ranks in skills as prerequisites. That would be a big problem if you want your rule set to fit more-or-less seamlessly with standard DnD.
Also I feel that it really detracts from the flexibility of the current system. Right now I can have a character who is moderately good at a number of different skills, or is more focused. With Saga it seems to force you to focus your character on a narrow range of skills.
Also it sounds like Saga really rewards cherry-picking a skilled character at first level. If your number of trained skills are determined at first level, I'm sure a lot of people would take a skilled character, then immediately switch to whatever they really wanted to play, just to get those extra trained skills.
The only benefits I can see to the Saga system is that character creation / level up would be slightly faster, and characters would be better at non-trained skills.
Overall, I just don't like the Saga skill system. I'll be sticking with skill points / ranks for my d20 system.
Quote from: Kap'n XeviatMaybe. But I'm still considering using the Saga Skill system, the system of level bonus and trained skills rather than skill points. I'd really like to discuss the pros and cons of this.
How about this: instead of giving every character fixed ranks (1/2*lvl) with all skills and a few skills being trained (+5), you give all characters an equal number of skill points (e.g. 6) and let all skills count as class skills?
Wait, why would I do that? That would mean fighters would be as skilled as rogues? Wouldn't that take away part of the value of the rogue?