Just had a random idea while working on my magic system. What if I made it skill based? Then I went one step further and thought, what if I replace base attack bonus with skills?
Has anybody tried this kind of system? How did it work?
Besm d20 uses a skill based combat system. You should look into that for some ideas.
If you check out Haphazzard Casting, that's a skill-based casting system. It's a bit complicated, so you may want to make it less complicated (not terribly hard). I have, actually, been wondering about a skill based fighting system. I think the base attack bonus is just too generic. I don't like the same +7 on a bow that I've never used as on the longsword that I've been using since I could walk.
I can think of 2 ways to do it: the simple way, and the complicated way.
THE SIMPLE WAY: Add a skill to the skill list and have it's base attribute be whatever you would normally use (STR for axes and DEX for bows is one example). Having weapon finesse changes STR to DEX on light weapons, just like normal.
THE COMPLICATED WAY: Add a skill to the skill list, but make it so that you don't out normal ranks in it. Each class gets so many "weapon points" every level (probably based on the base attack bonus they have now) that can only be put into weapons. The complicated part is figuring out how many each class gets for each lvl. I'm thinking either 2 or 1.5 times as many as the base attack bonus. That way fighters still get more, but casters and rogues aren't limited to sucking.
Pellanor---
Rushing out to a client's house, will check in later.
take a look at the first page or so of this mess of a thread, and I am looking forward to see what you do with this.
http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?31806 (//hyperlinkurl)
I seem to remember Xeviat considering something like this a while back. You might check with him on the crunch.
An immediate problem I can see with this is that unless you put in some sort of regulator, many prestige classes will be open far earlier, as you could potentially get a '+6 BAB' by level three.
With skill based attacks do you go to a skill based defense as well? How do you balance the attacks vs the AC? A first level fighter could have his sword skill at 4 (using the max ranks for skills) meaning he's swinging like a 4th level fighter in the current system.
The BAB system allows a character to switch weapons easily when a new weapon is found. (some would say this is a pro while other say that it is a con). Though if your main concern is picking up a bow and having the same proficiency as with a sword, then a modified Weapon Group Proficiency would probably be all you'd need.
Thanks for the sources to look at, as well as the feedback. It is much appreciated.
Stargate525, I'll be using custom classes, so early qualification won't be an issue.
Poseidon, you raise a good point.
I've been thinking of how to do that. Here's a couple of possibilities I've come up with.
A. Attack Skill, Defence Skill
B. Melee Skill, Ranged Skill, Unarmed Skill
C. Melee Attack, Ranged Attack, Unarmed Attack, Defence Skill
D. Melee Attack, Ranged Attack, Unarmed Attack, Melee Defence, Ranged Defence, Unarmed Defence
E. Skill for each Weapon Group
F. Attack Skill per WG, Defence Skill per WG.
Currently I'm leaning towards either C or E.
I like E.
What if you did something like:
Fighter gets 6 weapon skill points per level to place into weapon groups (based on the weapon groups in the SRD or your own groupings.) Only one skill point is allowed to be placed in a group per level. This would keep your system from becoming to complicated and keep it on par with the current system.
A 5th level fighter could have: +5 (Axes), +5 (Exotic Axes), +5 (Heavy Blades), +4 (Bows), +5 (Light Blades), +3 (Exotic light blades), +3 (Exotic Heavy Blades)
So instead of a BAB progression, you could have a skill points progression. Like
[spoiler=Full Progression][table=Fighter]
[tr][th]Level[/th][td]Skill
points[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]1[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]2[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]3[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]4[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]5[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]6[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]7[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]8[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]9[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]10[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]11[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]12[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]13[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]14[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]15[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]16[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]17[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]18[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]19[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]20[/th][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[/table][/spoiler][spoiler=3/4 Progression]
[table=Cleric]
[tr][th]Level[/th][td]Skill
points[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]1[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]2[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]3[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]4[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]5[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]6[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]7[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]8[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]9[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]10[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]11[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]12[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]13[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]14[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]15[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]16[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]17[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]18[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]19[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]20[/th][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[/table][/spoiler][spoiler=1/2 Progression][table=Wizard]
[tr][th]Level[/th][td]Skill
points[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]1[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]2[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]3[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]4[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]5[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]6[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]7[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]8[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]9[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]10[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]11[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]12[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]13[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]14[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]15[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]16[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]17[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]18[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]19[/th][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]20[/th][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[/table][/spoiler]
Edit: You could even add in an extra weapon skill points per level based on STR or DEX (which ever is higher) ability score
[th]12-13[/th]| +1 |
[th]14-15[/th]| +1 |
[th]16-17[/th]| +1 |
[th]18-19[/th]| +2 |
[th]20-21[/th]| +2 |
[th]22-23[/th]| +2 |
[th]24-25[/th]| +3 |
[th]26-27[/th]| +3 |
[th]28-29[/th]| +3 |
[th]30-31 [/th]| +4 |
[th]32-33 [/th]| +4 |
[th]34-35 [/th]| +4 |
[th]36-37 [/th]| +5 |
[th]38-39 [/th]| +5 |
[th]40-41 [/th]| +5 |
[th]42-43 [/th]| +6 |
[th]44-45 [/th]| +6 |
This sounds kind of like the Weapon Skill Levels in the Hero System. What the Hero System did (keep in mind this is a point-based system like GURPS) was to increase the cost the wider the bonus got. So you could get a +1 with a specific weapon (longsword, for example) for 2 points, a +1 with swords for 3 points, a +1 with blades for 5 points, a +1 with melee weapons for 7 points and a +1 to all offensive combat for 10 points (number of points made up for poster's convenience).
why would a wizard become a better fighter at all unless he fought? The fifth level fighter Poseidon talks about, is this comment:
[blockquote=SeaGod]A 5th level fighter could have: +5 (Axes), +5 (Exotic Axes), +5 (Heavy Blades), +4 (Bows), +5 (Light Blades), +3 (Exotic light blades), +3 (Exotic Heavy Blades)[/blockquote]
based on the character's using axes more than exotic heavy blades? Does Pellanor want the system to reflect that?
Theoretically, one could turn the whole d20 system into a bunch of skills; L5R's system is an almost entirely skill-based system. The one problem with skill based combat is that every character ends up having as many ranks as they can afford in a weapon. Standard d20 would have the cross-class skill issue to protect this, but then you'd have, in effect, full BAB classes and half BAB classes; which might not be that bad of a change in the end (as long as you give the common mid-BAB classes some way of boosting their attack bonus; rogue's have flat-footed and flanking, monks could have an unarmed bonus ...).
I do understand people's dislike of warriors being equally skilled with all weapons. If you're determined to do this, I'd recommend the following: have one skill for melee attack rolls (str) and one skill for ranged attack rolls (dex), with Weapon Finesse to allow dex for light weapons as normal. You technically don't need a defense skill. Feats to improve single weapons/weapon groups should still exist; they only improve your combat skill with particular weapons.
Quote from: Kap'n XeviatTheoretically, one could turn the whole d20 system into a bunch of skills; [...]
No only theoretically. :D
I've replaced BAB, saves, and casting with skills (and feats) in the WCS. And I think it works out very well. As for the details...
* no classes
* each character gains a fixed amount of skill points per level (8 + Int mod)
* max ranks depend on selections you made at character creation; you can select 3 skills at "master ranking" (then max ranks are level/2 + 7), 5 skills at "expert ranking" (then max ranks are level/2 + 4), and all the other skills are "layman ranking" (with max ranks at level/2 + 1)
* special actions, as well as multiple attacks, are feats that require a certain # of ranks in a skill
* combat skills are: close combat, ranged ranged; close combat is also used to parry with a weapon or block with a shield; close combat and ranged combat do not automatically work on all weapons, but instead you can select 3 weapon groups (from UA) that you can apply your skill to; with feats you can gain additional weapon groups
That's basically my system. :)
I also went skill based for my setting, but went REALLY skill based.
*no classes, but also no class level.
*Character's gain experience separately in the skills they use or practice with, period. No gaining hp without fighting, no becoming a better lockpick by killing things.
What you call feats are subskills in my guildschool setting. So to learn 'mulitiple attack/dress sword', you must have 'basic dress sword' already. To learn 'Frenzy/dress sword', you must have 'multiple atack/dress sword' and so on. Levels are kept in each skill individually.
One of my biggest issues in the whole in my years (AND YEARS) of gaming was creating a system where the players needed to focus on using the abilities they wanted to improve, and building relationships with gulds and such that could teach them that skill. Characters evolve instead of merely advancing.
Once again, thanks for all the ideas. I've definitely got a lot to think about.
Once I've got a better idea of how I want this system to work I'll be sure to post it up.