The Campaign Builder's Guild

So, RoseofMontegue has apparently been spreading the word, but I wanted to be the first to post on our boards.

If you go to www.wizards.com/dnd , it is currently a countdown clock to something called 4dventure. Go check it out. There are threads on wizards of the coast and EnWorld right now, speculating away.

So, what of our hopes and fears?

I doubt it's fourth edition.

Normally there'd be at least a year's build-up of announcements in Dragon and so on.

Of course, they did kill Dragon, which makes you wonder.

It's also approaching the ten year mark for 3e anyway, even 3.5 is starting to get old.

At one time WotC was on record as saying they plan on adopting a more CCG-like marketing strategy for the D&D brand and do a new edition everytime the sales on the PHB and similar core products start dropping off.

I don't think it's 4e.  It's probably just a new module/ adventure series or something.

Well, this was gonna happen sooner or later.  I suggest that we wait for the press release that is probably going to happen when the timer at WotC (http://www.wizards.com/dnd) hits zero.

All the speculation has already been said multiple times.  All I can say is that 4E is coming, as I saw and posted on the 4E damage-control boards the Wiz_O's had set-up and recently hid from the public eye.

Just my thoughts, carry on.

Quote from: Rose Of MontagueAll the speculation has already been said multiple times.  All I can say is that 4E is coming, as I saw and posted on the 4E damage-control boards the Wiz_O's had set-up and recently hid from the public eye.

Just my thoughts, carry on.

4e damage control boards?

I have heard nothing of these.  Although, my WotC-boards acivity is mostly by way of bookmarked specific forums, so I might not have looked at the master list of forums in a few months.

Quote from: khyron11444e damage control boards?

I have heard nothing of these.  Although, my WotC-boards acivity is mostly by way of bookmarked specific forums, so I might not have looked at the master list of forums in a few months.

There was a post on a forum that was presumably supposed to be hidden from public view (for now) by the community liason that read as follows:

QuoteThe announcement of 4th Edition is a pretty big event for all RPG fans. It's a huge event for all of us at Wizards of the Coast, including WotC staff and our WizO support team. We understand that this is something many of you are going to feel very passionate about in a number of ways.
 
 We've created this forum for few reasons. We want everyone to have a single discussion forum where they can get answers and information directly from the D&D staff. We also want to prevent the other forums from being overwhelmed with 4E posts to the point that it drowns out any of the natural discussion in those areas. Additionally, I want to have a single forum where our community can post their hopes, fears, concerns, and dreams about 4E. This will make it easier for the D&D staff to read community feedback, and to (hopefully) provide a lot of answers to your questions.
 
 The WizOs will be moderating this forum and others. They are acting on the direction of Wizards of the Coast, so if you're upset with their moderation, please don't take it out on the WizOs. Their goals will be clear: Keep 4th Edition discussion in the 4E forum. This might mean locking threads and/or moving posts.  
 
 If you have concerns, questions, or issues about the forum moderation taking place after the 4th Edition announcement, I've created a thread here where you may discuss your concerns.
 
 Finally, please try to be respectful in your posts and comments. Be nice to other posters, the WizOs, and WotC staff. The WizOs will be enforcing all Code of Conduct rules on all forums as usual.
 
 If you have any suggestions or ideas on how I can do a better job of helping to facilitate communication between the D&D Staff and the Community, I've created a thread here.  
 
 Thanks!
 -Mike

My guess is it will be back up when things "officially" break at GenCon and online.

There was a sub-forum accessible for a short period of time on the WotC boards.  Click here (http://www.daggergate.com/wizards4e.gif) for a screen-shot.  I can guarantee that picture isn't a fake because I posted on those boards myself.  WotC asked for feedback, and somebody found it due to a privacy settings error (popular theory).

EDIT: ...and ElDo has a copy of the letter.

Or it could be the worlds most terrible, riot inducing joke ever.

Quote from: Stargate525Or it could be the worlds most terrible, riot inducing joke ever.

As incompetent as WotC is, I doubt Hasbro would turn a blind eye to such a retarded scheme.

Quote from: Elven DoritosAs incompetent as WotC is, I doubt Hasbro would turn a blind eye to such a retarded scheme.

I've seen dumber, actually.

*Imagines a small army of people, with mismatched bits of real, fake, and display medieval armor and weapons storming WOTC's corporate headquarters.*

Quote from: Stargate525I've seen dumber, actually.

WotC is already on the defensive with their fanbase after the Dragon and Dungeon axings, as well as some other recent moves that have been less than favorable. I doubt they'd risk the unmitigated hype machine by alienating the remainder of their audience with a gag regarding their next product line.

I see no motive to do so.

There's this post from Wizards of the Coast's boards:

QuoteAugust 16, 2007 (Renton, WA) '" Whether you storm a mad wizard's tower every week or haven't delved into a dungeon since you had a mullet and a mean pair of parachute pants, one thing is certain - millions of D&D players worldwide have anticipated the coming of 4th Edition for many years. Today, Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player's Handbook. A pop culture icon, Dungeons & Dragons is the #1 tabletop roleplaying game in the world, and is revered by legions of gamers of all ages.

The 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illustrated rulebooks and pre-painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new web-based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeals to veteran players.

The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet '" the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.

"We've been gathering player feedback for eight years," said Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director of Roleplaying and Miniatures Games at Wizards of the Coast. "Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it's still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community."

Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January '" Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters. The first live demos of 4th Edition will happen at the D&D Experience gaming convention in Washington D.C. in February 2008. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008.

Since its first release in 1974, the fantasy roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons has taken millions of players on imaginary adventures of epic scale. Today, D&D is universally regarded as the original game that created the roleplaying game category, and the inspiration for generations of game designers. D&D is enjoyed by millions of players worldwide, while countless more remember it with fond nostalgia.

Not sure if this is real or fake, but ElDo's logic is sound as well.

Either way, we'll all see tomorrow.

Some people have been mentioning that things could be gleaned from the podcasts; I'll have to check them when the site is back up.

Quote from: Kap'n Xeviat

Quote[...] Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it's still a tabletop game experience. [...]

For the sweet love of gods, please no! x.

Nothing good EVER came of the word 'experience'

Quote from: Stargate525Nothing good EVER came of the word 'experience'

That's how I gain levels.  !turtle

Quote from: Soup Nazi

Quote from: Stargate525Nothing good EVER came of the word 'experience'

That's how I gain levels.  !turtle

I should quantify. The word 'experience' when used in place of another, more traditional noun, such as 'game','meal','location', and 'sauerkraut.'

I wonder why WotC has locked down the 4E boards again. Now that it seems certain the countdown thingy on their site is about 4E (and it's not like we couldn't have guessed even without the privacy accident, assuming that's what it was), everyone will be talking about it, and as WotC themselves state in the post ElDo quoted above: "We also want to prevent the other forums from being overwhelmed with 4E posts to the point that it drowns out any of the natural discussion in those areas." which is exactly what is happening now. Locking the new boards down is only making things worse right now.

Also, am I the only one assuming there's a connection between this 4E stuff and the withdrawal of Paizo's Dragon and Dungeon licenses?

Túrin

Quote from: TúrinI wonder why WotC has locked down the 4E boards again. Now that it seems certain the countdown thingy on their site is about 4E (and it's not like we couldn't have guessed even without the privacy accident, assuming that's what it was), everyone will be talking about it, and as WotC themselves state in the post ElDo quoted above: "We also want to prevent the other forums from being overwhelmed with 4E posts to the point that it drowns out any of the natural discussion in those areas." which is exactly what is happening now. Locking the new boards down is only making things worse right now.

I'm really not sure why they're doing the huge countdown page, either. I'm not seeing the point. It's not as if they have to build anticipation for anything-- current players already seem to know whether they intend to switch to 4E or stick with whatever they're running currently, and I doubt the announcement of 4E is going to pull in any new blood who've been thinking about trying out this crazy "dee and dee" stuff but've been on the fence. The whole "We have information, but you have to wait for it!" thing is sort of silly.

If the 4E forums were made public by some accident, they ought to have been left that way. I mean, the cat is already out of the bag, and people are going to discuss this mess somewhere. Why wouldn't WotC want to be able to host discussion at their place, where they can try to spin it most favorably? Silly.

I think the reason they've locked them down is so that instead of a whole forum filled with speculation, we actually have solid information to speculate ON before they give us a forum.

Maybe so, but now there are forums (fora?) filled with speculation all over many of the internets. They've started the crazy baseless speculation machine as soon as they put the "4dventure" (I hate that mangled mess of a word) countdown on their site, and by not giving discussion an outlet, it's just going to move away.

LC, I think you seriously underestimate the average gamer. 4E is likely to spark a lot of debate, but I think that it'll be accepted largely as 3.0 was. With 3.0 they sold more books, as even people paying 2E games would want to check out the new rules. Conversion wasn't overnight, but hype helps convince people that they want to buy books, even if they don't have a 4E game running atm.

Not providing information is a proven way of driving up hype. The idea is that the more someone thinks about a product, the more likely they are to get it. If they said "4E is coming" and that's all, then people would say "cool" and go back to thinking about other stuff. By denying info, they get people to speculate and debate, which increases the amount of time they focus on it.

Oh, I don't doubt that it'll be accepted. I'm just confused by their specific choices regarding how to moderate (or not) the inevitable speculation. It's the removal of the 4E discussion boards that's making me scratch my head.

Quote from: RaelLC, I think you seriously underestimate the average gamer.

But this is possible too, I'm sure.

The only problem with the lack of information is that there were some people who were already upset with the lack of information about what the D&D DI was going to be. This is just fuel on the fire, though so far the WotC boards have been surprisingly civil so far.



I thought this was funny:

Quote from: MarkHall(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1345/1134318905_7ceba73e8e.jpg)

I think the whole "cat out of the bag" unlocked-then-relocked forums was actually an intentional stunt.  Up until yesterday at around 9:00 PM, when I first heard the news, I had not been to www.wizards.com/dnd or any of its daughter-pages in probably at least six months.  Maybe longer.  Now, I too and planning on rushing to (and probably, with the millions of other people doing the same thing, crashing) the page at 6:30 PM EST this evening.  With that little "accident," it has basically been confirmed that the announcement is legit, and now, thousands (if not tens of thousands) of people, who would otherwise not be on their main web page, will be checking out the site.

 Definitely intentional.

On another note, I would like to make a request (and if you need to, assume request = demand) that this is the only 4E thread on this site.  Thanks

Oh man, this gives me further impetus to break away from D&D/d20 with my own games.  ;)

But seriously.  AD&D 2nd Edition hung around for 11 years.  We've only had 3.5 for about 4 years now, and 3.0 for 3 years before that.

Part of me wants to assume that this could be a good thing - I read the part about streamlining the complex parts of the game with Great Joy.  But the increasing reliance on miniatures discourages me...

Meh.  I'll no doubt buy the core books, if for no other reason, then to mine for ideas in my homebrew systems.

Hm, or maybe in 'protest' I'll start up an old-school game.  I've been wanting to do a 2e Skills&Powers Planescape campaign for a while...

Quote from: Luminous CrayonThey've started the crazy baseless speculation machine as soon as they put the "4dventure" (I hate that mangled mess of a word) countdown on their site

calculator talk[/i]. Also, the never unsplashing splash page that you can't escape is amateur night.

(I'm actually almost excited about 4e. Though everyone in my group probably isn't going to run out and buy it on opening day like we did 3e. Unless we just want to stick it to Ishmayl.)

Quote from: brainface(I'm actually almost excited about 4e. Though everyone in my group probably isn't going to run out and buy it on opening day like we did 3e. Unless we just want to stick it to Ishmayl.)

That would be hilarity. :)

I guess I'm cautiously optimistic as well. It's not as if 3E/3.5 is perfect-- it's full of things that need fixing, and even people who love 3E/3.5 say so. They've had years of feedback on these issues (hope they've been listening!), and I am hoping 4E is going to be a tool for fixing a lot of things that were pretty seriously mleh.

Some of the PR hype-machine output even sounds... well, somewhat useful.

Quote from: Press release (emphasis mine)The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet '" the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.

Have to wait and see if it lives up to the claims or not, and have to wait even longer to see whether or not I'll bother with 4E myself (I'm guessing not, since I barely use 3E/3.5 much anymore.)

But I don't think the sky is falling or anything.

Hopefully the hype is more than just that.  My main concern is that a lot of these "features" aren't going to be free.  And suddenly, WotC is going to be making a lot more money off of people for doing things that were once free.  There will always be "open" options available, and an endless number of character generators, but undoubtedly, people are going to pay a lot of money for things that they weren't paying for this time last year.

And realistically, I'll probably give everything a look-see and a try.  I'm not close-minded, just bitter about being open-minded ;)

I've slept on it.

And I guess the most startling thing is that I don't really care. I might buy the books, I dunno. But right now, there's nothing to make me want to buy it.

[blockquote Press Release (emphasis LC)] The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play,offers exciting new character options......... [/blockquote]

um.. isnt that what basically what we have been doing on the cbg?

Yes! Yes it is!  See, there's no reason to go to gleemax!  the CBG can serve all your needs! Please!?



:p

Don't sound so desperate, Ish. We need to maintain the air of professionalism. ;)

Ahem..



"Welcome to the CBG, where we don't steal your shit"


That work for a new logo?

Quote from: IshmaylYes! Yes it is!  See, there's no reason to go to gleemax!  the CBG can serve all your needs! Please!?

If you're really that worried about it, I can't fathom why. Can't figure out what the actual draw of that place is supposed to be, anyway.

[spoiler]That, and I can't see myself frequenting a community/board/thing called "GLEEMAX" anyway. Could they have picked a more absurd sounding name?

"Gleemax. Gleemax. Gleemax." You can't even utter the word without sounding like a wheezing lunatic.[/spoiler]

I'm not really worried about it, but since I'm using these next few days to officially retire from ever posting anything at a WotC-sponsored site ever again,* it may be hard for me to go out and recruit ;)

*Cuz they steal your stuff, yo!

My thoughts on Gleemax:
(//../../e107_files/public/1187284847_2_FT36458_gleemax_.png) (//../../e107_files/public/1187284847_2_FT36458_gleemax.png)

Quote from: IshmaylI'm not really worried about it, but since I'm using these next few days to officially retire from ever posting anything at a WotC-sponsored site ever again,* it may be hard for me to go out and recruit ;)

*Cuz they steal your stuff, yo!

It's a legitimate worry!

[ic=In the Not-Too-Distant Future]Ishmayl stared for a long time at the mysterious package before daring to open it. There were simply too many questions, too many mysteries regarding its spurious origins, its anonymous sender, and that shadowy figure's unguessable motives.

Finally, curiosity won out. As the clock struck three in the morning, Ishmayl slowly peeled back the brown paper wrapping, hands trembling with wonder-- and caution. Beneath the turned-down corner of the dull paper gleamed a glossy title: "Dungeons and Dragons: Fourth Edition."

Downing a shot of liquid fortitude, he slid the sinister tome free of its paper sheath, letting the pages fall open as they may. Instantly, his eyes alighted on an unsettling phrase, a sinister sentence within a pilfered paragraph. It was a passage the book had wanted him to see:

Quote from: 8pxohmygodpleasedon'tbanme[/size]

Quote from: Ishmayl"Welcome to the CBG, where we don't steal your shit"

OMG, I LOVE IT!  HIlARITY!

*bows to the turtle god*

Ooo, ooo, I've got a question!

...

What the **** is Gleemax anyway? :o

Quote from: TúrinOoo, ooo, I've got a question!

...

What the **** is Gleemax anyway? :o

My guess! Ooh, ooh!

It's a portmanteau of "glee" and "max", meant to bring the maximum amount of glee to our gaming lives!

.... :roll:

Gleemax is redundant pointless irrelevence.

I actually have no idea what it is (. . . besides a portmanteau of Glee and Max :-/ ).  It has a separate forum on WotC, that's all I know.  It doesn't otherwise seem to affect anything.

Ecce Wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleemax

Still looking at all the information being presented here's another gem from the WotC boards:

Quote from: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.htmlhttp://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html[/url]
   
'D&D 4th Edition' Announced at Gen Con
Online Component Added
August 16, 2007

Wizards of the Coast is announcing at GenCon today that it will release the 4th Edition of its category-leading Dungeons and Dragon roleplaying game in 2008, the first full new edition in eight years.  The three core books will be released next summer on a monthly schedule:  Player's Handbook in May, Monster Manual in June, and Dungeon Master's Guide in July.  Pricing and page counts of the new products will be consistent with current packaging.  Graphics have been updated, art will be used on the covers, and interior design has been opened up to make the books less intimidating to new players.

Lead-in products, Wizards Presents:  Classes and Races and Wizards Presents:  Worlds and Monsters, will be released in December.  An April release, Keep of the Shadowfell, will include a set of quickstart rules for 4E.

While there are changes in play (such as incorporating "epic-level play," with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as "evolutionary" rather than "revolutionary."  Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles.  Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make DM-ing easier.  Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords.

What the company does describe as revolutionary is the method of product delivery, which will incorporate online play for the first time. WotC is incorporating online components into the game through a new Website, DnDInsider.com.  Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a "nominal" activation fee.   Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in Dragon and Dungeon magazines (see "Interview with Liz Schuh") for a monthly fee (as yet undetermined) greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription.  Magazine-style content will be added to the site three times a week and compiled into digital "issues" monthly.

Gameplay features on the Web will include a digital D&D game table, and voice chat and text messaging, to allow online players to communicate with each other.  The online play is designed to "supplement, not replace" meatspace play.
 
The Open Gaming License will continue as it has in the past, allowing the use of the rules in other publishers' games.

Work on the new edition began in 2005, with the major work all accomplished in the last year.

D&D products released between now and the launch of 4th Edition will fall into three groups.  Edition-proof products (which are mostly story) will not include mechanics that are edition-specific.  Some products will be "enhanced" to 4th Edition mechanics after release through DnDInsider, and a couple of series will end as 3.5 products.

The setting for the core books are campaign neutral.  Forgotten Realms will be the first campaign setting to be updated (in August 2008).  Other campaign settings will be updated at a rate of one per year.  

Marketing support will initially focus on migrating the existing player base, and then move to an acquisition strategy to re-activate lapsed players and acquire new ones. Midnight launch parties will be used to kick off sales of the first new release in May.

(bolded by myself)

At least they're keeping OGL.

"at a nominal fee"

Quote from: AnaxanderWotC is incorporating online components into the game through a new Website, DnDInsider.com.  Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a "nominal" activation fee.

Oh lovely; so in order to get all of the book we paid for, we now have to spend extra money and have an internet connection...  :-/

Oh well, I'll wait until the inevitable pirating of them onto public servers, then download the ones I have.

Here's a somewhat official word on the OGL issue.  Morris (from enWorld) got an exclusive interview a couple nights ago, and this has been what he's been allowed to release thus far (more on enworld.org)

Open Gaming Licence

    * 3rd party publishers will be able to get licenses to create 4e material from Wizards. (source)
    * Fans will be able to publish material on Gleemax under (free) license from Wizards. (This material will be available to Wizards to republish; see discussion on Gleemax TOS).
    * The OGL/SRD/d20 Licenses will still exist - details still to come (Source)

My guess is that a lot of our questions will be answered in approximately 4 hours... but a lot of those answers will involve a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo that won't really make sense to us.

[blockquote=Ishmayl]
"Welcome to the CBG, where we don't steal your shit"[/blockquote]

Hilarious, My poor-typing ass.  This is funny, but in my industry, I'm an 'idea' guy, I help design new fitness equipment, and I have been ripped off more times than I can count.  I have NEVER put my gaming stuff out for public display before.  But somehow, I feel comfortable sharing here.
Maybe becasue I am getting older and no longer expect to make money on it, but it is certainly part of the fellowship/honesty I find here that I have bothered to post here and no where else.  I've been offered 3 chances to publish, once very seriously back in the early 90's.  

I really don't care about 4 except from a milestone standpoint, in that I feel that the 'social/intellectual' event that is gaming will continue onward.  I care a lot more about the CBG, personally, since it remains much more true to the spirit that gaming started with.  Kudos to all the oldfolk for keeping the flame.
Think I'm going to post the next adventure I write, just for that.  
*sigh* Another thread killing.

Quote from: LordVreeg*sigh* Another thread killing.

Not if I have anything to say about it!

WotC is dead!  Long live the CBG!

I think we'll need to work a BIT more on the selling of Swag before the CBG can proclaim WotC 'dead'... ;)

But I agree with the sentiment - for my own part, the CBG LONG ago replaced the Wizard boards in terms of getting legitimate feedback and occasional interesting discussion on gaming stuff.  

Granted, I still visit the Wizards boards to marvel at the trolls and flame-wars on the Mature boards.  We don't quite have anything like that here... yet...

Who's in charge of the swag again?  I was thinking of some things that would be cool to have.  (Probably not practical to produce, but cool)

ElDo has been the one to set things up in terms of swag, but we had some problems with the cafepress site awhile back, and I'm not sure everything's back up and running.

Guys, guys, you're missing the point of my post.  What we REALLY need to catapult the CBG to the next level in online gaming discussion groups is to get a Mature board, complete with trolls and arguments about whether paladins can eat babies.

[blockquote=Some preview I dug up]An April release, Keep of the Shadowfell, will include a set of quickstart rules for 4E.[/blockquote]
Hey Ishy, looks like WotC is using your homebrew to launch 4E.

DUN DUN DUN.... (it had to be said). Also, I think we may need more members before we can proclaim WOTC dead.... [blockquote WOTC Community home]Members: 247,888, Active Members: 51,685[/blockquote]
so, with rounding, 250k against 300. Remind you of something?

Quote from: Soup Nazi[blockquote=Some preview I dug up]An April release, Keep of the Shadowfell, will include a set of quickstart rules for 4E.[/blockquote]
Hey Ishy, looks like WotC is using your homebrew to launch 4E.

Yeah, I saw that a long time ago :(  It's disappointing, because I was always very proud of that name, and now it will look like, "Ooh, that Ishy, he's just stealing WotC names for his stuff" :( :(

Tell it to the Spartans, O stranger passing by,
That here, in accordance with their law, we lie.

(http://www.hackslash.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/4ealert.jpg)

Nice. Mind if I use it in my sig?

Quote from: http://boards.wizards.com/boards.wizards.com/[/url] now redirects to forums.gleemax.com/ (http://forums.gleemax.com/)). So if you still post on the WotC forums, you're using Gleemax.

But screw Gleemax. CBG-max for the win!

Quote from: Epic MeepoCBG-max for the win!

I like!

I think you've come up with the new name of our new hosting section!

I wonder if some of the new magic types (truename, shadow, incarnum, pact magic), not to mention psionics, will now be part of core?

Quote from: Ishmayl

Quote from: Soup Nazi[blockquote=Some preview I dug up]An April release, Keep of the Shadowfell, will include a set of quickstart rules for 4E.[/blockquote]Hey Ishy, looks like WotC is using your homebrew to launch 4E.

Yeah, I saw that a long time ago :(  It's disappointing, because I was always very proud of that name, and now it will look like, "Ooh, that Ishy, he's just stealing WotC names for his stuff" :( :(

The City of Shadowfell was also a location on an Ultima Online MMORPG(?) server as early as October, 2001.

Quote from: Ishmayl

Quote from: Epic MeepoCBG-max for the win!

I like!
I think you've come up with the new name of our new hosting section!

Nice! (You'll find my first mention of CBG-max in the last issue of the Guide I worked on. You may recall that I included a CBG-max ad that featured a crudely rendered cabbage in a jar instead of a brain in a jar.)

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm (http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm)

QuoteTHE FOURTH AMENDMENT
Roleplaying granddaddy '˜Dungeons & Dragons' is leveling up, redefining online gaming and bringing huge changes to '˜D&D Minis'
By Thorin McGee

Posted August 16, 2007 2:30 PM

If you thought the advent of d20 was a giant leap for gamer kind, they're looking to jump Springfield Gorge with this one. 2007 marked Wizards of the Coast's summer of big ideas: Magic's getting planeswalkers and two blocks a year, Gleemax.com is spearheading the company's conquest of the Internet, and at Gen Con, Wizards announced the Fourth Edition of Dungeons & Dragons.

THE BOOKS
'We think Third Edition is a wonderful platform and we're building upon that,' said Bill Slavicsek, Wizards of the Coast director of RPG research and development and the man at the wheel for Dungeons & Dragons, d20 and all of Wizards' roleplaying initiatives. 'But we have learned a lot about what's worked and not worked over the last eight years, and we're certainly looking to get rid of the slow and bumpy parts and just get to the fun' in Fourth Edition.

This new edition will stick with the d20 system, but the designers see many elements that can be improved. One big emphasis has been on streamlining turns to help the game get around the table a bit quicker; they know there's nothing the rules can do to keep a party's mage and barbarian from wasting 15 minutes screaming over tactics at the start of every combat, but at least they can get you out of grappling details a bit faster. And the mage and barbarian might get along a little better thanks to revamped spell recovery rules that won't do away with the need to rest to replenish spells, but will give players more options to recover spells and in-game incentives to do something other than call nappy-time every two encounters.

In essence, what you're going to see mechanically is the d20 system evolved: rebuilding the clunky parts, greasing the wheels and polishing the chrome until you can see your character in it. Part of that polishing includes ramping up the coolness factor on some of the less-popular character classes to make sure that every class has a unique and essential role in a well-balanced party; you might see some of the traditional classes fall out of the base book in favor of sexier roles. The same thing will happen to the races covered in the core books, where the half-demon tieflings will claim a place at the expense of an undisclosed race'"we're guessing a half-elf, gnome and halfling were shut up in a dark cave with some paring knives, and no questions were asked of whoever came out'¦heck, there might even be three new races in the new edition! Not to worry; Slavicsek promises that any beloved races cut from the core books will appear in early Fourth Edition expansions.

Not all of Fourth Edition's changes will add to the game by subtraction; many rules tweaks they've experimented with in books all over Wizards' RPGs will show up as well. For example, Slavicsek tells us that 'The Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords book, which gave fighter-type characters the same types of options spellcasters do by basically giving them spells for fighters,' was received very well. 'That idea has been extremely popular, and we're adopting something similar for Fourth Edition.'

As always, the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide will be the core of the new edition, and you'll see them in May, June and July of 2008 respectively, just in time for everyone to get new campaigns up and running for next year's Gen Con. And yes, Wizards does recommend you begin new campaigns with Fourth Edition. 'It's not going to be as huge a jump,' as from Second Edition to Third Edition, said Slavicsek, 'but there's enough changing in the core system of how we are doing classes and races and characters that we're not even gonna attempt it'"we're just telling you it's better to start over.' Conversion went over like a lead balloon with Third Edition anyway.

THE PLASTIC PERIPHERALS
So Fourth Edition will be a new rule set based on d20, but not remotely compatible. What's that mean for the minis game? Effectively, this is D&D Minis 2.0 as well. Starting with Dungeons of Dread in April of 2008, D&D Minis sets will use Fourth Edition rules. According to Slavicsek, 'All your plastic will still be usable, but your stat cards will need to be updated.' However, you'll be able to get updated stat cards for free on Wizards' website for Unhallowed and the sets printed since. In addition, there will be a sort of all-star set of updated cards available for download that will include updated stats for the figs getting the most tournament play. And of course, there's always room for re-releasing popular figs in post-Fourth expansions of the future.

THE NEW ONLINE WORLD
But updated stat cards aren't the only piece of Fourth's puzzle being played online. Today, millions of people go online to pretend they're elves and orcs and goblins on epic quests in various MMOs, sometimes even in the D&D universe with D&D Online. But we can't help but feel that all those MMOs have just been honing in on D&D's territory. After all, how many World of Warcraft and EverQuest players started because their D&D group broke up? Wizards aims to find out through an online initiative called D&D Insider.

'If you think of your favorite movie double-DVD set, the movie is the books, and all the specials, that's D&D Insider,' said Slavicsek about the subscription-based web initiative that will let any D&D player expand their experience on the official website. 'It'll start with your electronic version of Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine,' which Slavicsek is particularly familiar with because he used to be the editor of Dragon. However, because they're moving the production in-house, all of the content will be official D&D canon, most of it developed by the actual designers. In addition, there will be a suite of DM tools'"experience calculators, a dungeon tile mapper, etc.'"to help the most overworked players in gaming get their campaigns running in record time, and private pages for the DM to post information on the world for his group to access. On the PC side, an official character generator will let players design the character they want to play, save it and print it out at any organized play event, which will make organizing such events a lot easier and may'"hopefully'"spur a resurgence of organized RPG play. Players will also be able to create an exact representation of their character's look through the character generator much like you might in an MMO, and then use a custom-tailored 'virtual mini' of that character on D&D Insider's most exciting offering, the virtual game table.

'The D&D game table is basically the place where you can play D&D 24/7. It's the kitchen table on the internet,' explained Slavicsek. 'It lets you do everything you can do on the kitchen table'"roll the dice, lay out your battle map, lay out your dry erase marker map, lay out your dungeon tiles, lay out your virtual miniatures,' and it will let players use voice chat through the company Vivox to communicate directly through the game table just like if they were all in the same room.

'What we really like about this is that with a lot of groups, after college the group breaks up, never to see each other again. Well now you can call each other and log into D&D Insider and play on the D&D game table. And suddenly your groups that have been gone for 10 years can get back together and play with each other.' According to Slavicsek, all of this will be free to D&D Insider subscribers, but also available to nonsubscribers for a nominal fee.

Will that be enough to draw D&D nation out of their Third Edition d20 campaigns and into 4.0? Will it be cool enough to convince some of the MMO-playing mob to try a completely different online experience? Sounds to us like it might. After all, anything that helps college gaming groups reconnect in the real world can't be all bad.

Sooo... I wonder which classes and races are going bye-bye?  And it looks like maybe Tome of Battle will play a part in the new edition??

you know, if we really wanted to compete with wizards, we would need to sell our swag on amazon, not cafe press.

Quote from: Bill Slavicsek (paraphrased)In addition, there will be a suite of DM tools... to help the most overworked players in gaming get their campaigns running in record time, and private pages for the DM to post information on the world for his group to access.

Um, where have I seen this before... (CBG-max for the win!)

QuoteAccording to Slavicsek, all of this will be free to D&D Insider subscribers, but also available to nonsubscribers for a nominal fee.

And it looks like maybe Tome of Battle will play a part in the new edition??[/quote]
Kick ass! I was just in the middle of converting all spells to work like Tome of Battle maneuvers. Now, it sounds as though someone else has already done it for me.

Quote from: Atlantisyou know, if we really wanted to compete with wizards, we would need to sell our swag on amazon, not cafe press.

Atlantis, I believe I will set you up as the head of the new official "Get Our Stuff On Amazon!" taskforce.  I'll be calling for updates first thing tomorrow morning.

;)

Well, now that doesn't sound actually too bad, does it? If they really do away with all that horrible legacy stuff like
* magic missile
* polymorph
* iterative attacks (now that is not really that "legacy", but still)
and make rules actually usable (yes, "using melee weapons in a grapple" or "overrun" I'm looking at you :-/ ), it could be quite interesting.

Even more for me personally, as the general 3.5 hype went by me without touching me. I never got around actually bying the books (because at that time I was a poor guy still going to school :( ). In the games I played, I just borrowed the other gamers' books ( ;) ).

legacy stuff?  magic missiles?


?


?

:sputter:

Quote from: Sir VorpalDUN DUN DUN.... (it had to be said). Also, I think we may need more members before we can proclaim WOTC dead.... [blockquote WOTC Community home]Members: 247,888, Active Members: 51,685[/blockquote]
so, with rounding, 250k against 300. Remind you of something?

THESE...ARE...CAMPAIGN SETTINGS!

Quote from: Bill Slavicsek[Referring to a 3e-to-4e conversion guide] [T]here's enough changing in the core system of how we are doing classes and races and characters that we're not even gonna attempt it...

Hmmm. I wonder if this means they're going back to races-as-classes, the way D&D started out. That would be pretty cool.

Well, does anyone own the new Star Wars book? My buddy has it, but I haven't taken a look...

Quote from: Sir VorpalDUN DUN DUN.... (it had to be said). Also, I think we may need more members before we can proclaim WOTC dead.... [blockquote WOTC Community home]Members: 247,888, Active Members: 51,685[/blockquote]
so, with rounding, 250k against 300. Remind you of something?

Except some of us, are some of them.

Quote from: Stargate525

Quote from: Sir VorpalDUN DUN DUN.... (it had to be said). Also, I think we may need more members before we can proclaim WOTC dead.... [blockquote WOTC Community home]Members: 247,888, Active Members: 51,685[/blockquote]so, with rounding, 250k against 300. Remind you of something?

THESE...ARE...CAMPAIGN SETTINGS!

Beat ya' to it: URL (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?27623).

I see problem #1 with online table-top gaming.  My group won't go for it.  There's no way people who I can't talk into buying their own books will even consider paying to play online.

[sarcasm]Thank you WotC![/sarcasm]

Quote from: Elven DoritosWell, does anyone own the new Star Wars book? My buddy has it, but I haven't taken a look...

Here's a post from enWorld about the Saga system:

QuoteAdoption of d20 Modern talent trees

Only 5 classes

Pretty much no class abilities - choose a talent at odd levels, choose a bonus feat at even levels

No skill points - choose a set number of "trained" skills from you class list, add half your level to skill rolls, with a +5 bonus if its a "trained" skill (and some skills can't be used untrained at all)

The "condition track" where taking damage can lead to penalties (gross over simplification!)

Triple hit points at first level (although Con bonuses / penalties aren't tripled), although this is pretty much setting specific given the amount of damage a standard blaster pistol can do

A "use the force" skill, and a limited number of force powers known (which is feat based so independent of class - you can have soldiers with force powers and jedi without if you want)

Force powers can (normally) be used only once per encounter.

Quote from: IshmaylHere's a post from enWorld about the Saga system:

Meh.

Quote from: Ishmayllegacy stuff?  magic missiles?


?


?

:sputter:

Well, yes. Basically it breaks down to spells breaking their own guidelines on damage caps. Also, this whole "each missile can target a different creature" is very abusable with Twin Spell/Repeat Spell and Fell Drain.

In my opinion, the way magic missile should have handled damage should have been "1d4 + 1/caster level (max +5) points of force damage". This would still be quite good for a level 1 spell (even more considering the damage type, and no saving throw for reduced damage), but would not be vulnerable to abuse like the "normal" version.

;)

Quote from: IshmaylI think you've come up with the new name of our new hosting section!

CBG-max. No nominal fee required.

Quote from: A Nominal Fee

Quote from: IshmaylI think you've come up with the new name of our new hosting section!

CBG-max. No nominal fee required.

Uh Oh! Where's that leave you?

The nominal fee is allowed, just not required.

All nominal fees can be forwarded to me, of course.

Remember Eldo, you only get to skim a nominal take off of our nominal fees.

Quote from: brainfaceRemember Eldo, you only get to skim a nominal take off of our nominal fees.

Nominally speaking, of course.

Really, I don't understand the backlash against the online gaming part. This isn't paying for something you got for free-this is paying for something that did not exist. Now, if they pull a crazy move and go after existing companies that offered similiar services (Fantasy Grounds?)--then, THEN they will be money-grubbing crazies.

I also think the online additions to books, available with Nominal Fees(!) seems like a pretty good idea on their part. I mean, they gotta make their money. And it's easier to sell web enhancements to 1000 people than print out 1000 web enhancements, convince books a million to hold them, then hope they printed out the right number, and neither over nor understocked. There's no, well, less middleman, so hypothetically more profit.

Remember, these are the guys that apparently can't pay for a blasted search function on their boards, and if they go under, well... that's not so good for us, either.

(I'm assuming the web offerings are gonna be on the level of web enhancements in the past--additional material available to the people willing to go get it. If they "cripple" the print edition in order to sell more stuff online, well, that'd be stupid. If they want you to pay to get like 5 more feats an additional race and an awesome tie-in adventure, well, that's just additional offerings.)

Quote from: brainfaceRemember, these are the guys that apparently can't pay for a blasted search function on their boards, and if they go under, well... that's not so good for us, either.

Pssst I've had a built in search on their boards for a few months now. :D

QuotePssst I've had a built in search on their boards for a few months now.

Yeah, i'm not a regular. ;)

[blockquote Ishmayl] [blockquote Atlantis]you know, if we really wanted to compete with wizards, we would need to sell our swag on amazon, not cafe press.

[/blockquote]Atlantis, I believe I will set you up as the head of the new official "Get Our Stuff On Amazon!" taskforce. I'll be calling for updates first thing tomorrow morning.

 
 [/blockquote]

D'oh. i hope this is some kind of cruel joke cuz i actually dont know how to do that.

Its no joke. But there's a nominal fee required to know how to do it.

Here's some images of new site if you guys can't access it.

[spoiler=Welcome Page]
(http://www.shadowfell.org/pics/4EScreenies/01-welcome.png)
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Dragon Magazine???]
(http://www.shadowfell.org/pics/4EScreenies/02-dragonmagazine.png)
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Dungeon Magazine???]
(http://www.shadowfell.org/pics/4EScreenies/03-dungeonmagazine.png)
[/spoiler]

Ooh. Shiney.

http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/DnD%204e%20https/

I can has <3 Eldo?

Quote from: JaercI can has <3 Eldo?

Don't <3 me, I just slum on several message boards. ;)

QuoteNeed adventures?  Check out the new Dungeon pages for a sneak peek at issue #151, which also comes out in October.  This issue heralds the return of Dungeoncraft.  James Wyatt - D&D game designer and co-author of the Eberron Campaign Setting, and Eberron novelist - takes over as the new master of Dungeoncraft, and I can't wait to show what he's up to.  

Maaaaaaan[/i]  :( :( :(  I hope they're focusing more on crafting adventures rather than crafting campaign settings... otherwise, I'm out of a job.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QLeL-qYMh4o

Wow, that video said very little. (Though the scene about the grapple rules was spot on.)

So, I can get onto the site now and view some of the stuff...


Do these weapons look vaguely video gameish to anyone else?
(//../../e107_files/public/1187318040_2_FT36458_weapons.jpg)

Oh yeah. Specially dat hammer near the left.

Playtesting session grabbed before another site crash:

Quote from: Bruce CordellJune 28th, Thursday Night, Wizards Conference Room (Wayne Manor).
Campaign Arc: Castle Smoulderthorn
DM: Dave Noonan
Players: Bruce Cordell (yours truly), Richard Baker, Logan Bonner, and Toby Latin

Before we begin play, another player is giving Rich grief about one of Rich's character's abilities that grants the rest of us a blanket +2 to saves; it just ain't sexy. Rich says something like, 'I don't know, I doubt I'll use it that much, but who knows, maybe everyone in the party will get entangled.'

Sure enough, not 10 minutes later this fire-crazed flame priest has entangled half the party with fire snakes! Rich throws up his +2 to saves and, voila, at least two of us get free immediately. I guess that power isn't so corner case after all.

In my case, I've thrown together a 'psion.' It's because prior to the shift to the new playtest rules, I was playing a psion elan named Infandous. You wonder, why the scare quotes? Well, just between you and me, updated-Infandous-the-psion is actually a wizard with the serial numbers filed off.

Anyhow, I missed the last few sessions, so I'm slightly confused when the session begins'"apparently the group is still breathing hard from their last session, not even rested or healed, when we hear a shuffle of footsteps from behind a set of double doors. The doors aren't completely closed, so I 'mentally' whip them open from across the room.

Coming down the hallway is a troop of azer, some sort of burning serpent, and the flame priest I mentioned earlier. And it was a fight! And . . . we won. Without really breaking a sweat, either, truth be told.

Emboldened, we advanced down that hallway now littered with azer remains and ash, took a right, and pretty quickly found a dusty lintel inscribed with the words: Tomb of the Black Host.

'Sounds like someplace loot is stored,' said Infandous, eager to expand his repertoire of cool equipment. A little more discussion, and we pushed on the door. It opened . . .

And Dave spent nearly 10 minutes constructing (using Dungeon Tiles!) an ominous, crypt-lined ruin complete with three golden sarcophagi that emanated magic. Dave did a good job laying out the floor plan of the room. Such a good job that we lingered in the door looking into the shadow-lined mausoleum for a minute, then, another . . . then decided as a group that, loot or no loot, perhaps it would be better to let whatever lay in the deathly quite of the tomb alone. So, we closed the door and continued down the main hallway.

Sorry, Dave.

Quote from: Elven Doritos (for a nominal fee)So, I can get onto the site now and view some of the stuff...

Lucky you. I've moved from "Service Unavailable" to "Technical Difficulties." That makes my countdown to 4e the following:

3... 2... 1... 0... Now!... Service Unavailable... Service Unavailable... Technical Difficulties.

[ic=Mr. Sarcasm]Boy, I can't wait for that virtual game table that crashes when there are too many players. And those ezines I can't access when the site is down. And the character generator that may or may not cut out after fifteen minutes of work. All for a nominal fee, of course. Spec-freakin'-tacular![/ic]
Oh, and those weapons do look rather game-ish. And not necessarily in a good way.

Site's not working for me at the moment, it was a temporary fluke.

I managed to glean at least some info. :D

Quote from: Bruce CordellSure enough, not 10 minutes later this fire-crazed flame priest has entangled half the party with fire snakes! Rich throws up his +2 to saves and, voila, at least two of us get free immediately.

Hmmm... So is "entangling" a replacement for "grappling"? ...Interesting...

Classes:

QuoteThe Design & Development article series premiered on the D&D website back in September 2005, and has been a staple ever since. With the approach of 4th Edition, and our designers and developers focused on the new edition, this column will be the primary vehicle for 4th Edition coverage. We'll not only give you peeks at what's forthcoming, but also the 'how' and 'why.'

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You're getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to dndinsider@wizards.com.

Here's a highly probable conversation lifted from the future, one year from today, as two players who've just met at a convention discuss their PC choices for their upcoming D&D game.

'I'm playing a 3rd-level human fighter named Graelar.'

'Cool. Is he weapon and shield or two-hander?'

'He's sword and board, man.'

'Longsword?'

'Yeah. I thought about going high Con and using a hammer, but I wanted to start with the chance to make a couple of attacks, so I'm using rain of blows as my good weapon attack, and I went with high Wis so that I can switch to the better oppy powers later.'

'My elf fighter uses a spear. I like the speed and the option to go past AC. But you've got the fighter covered. I'll play a halfling rogue.'

The names and destinations of the powers mentioned above might have changed by the time the game is in your hands. What won't change is that fighters care about which weapons they use much more than other characters. Other character classes have specific weapons and weapon types that they tend to rely on while still maintaining access to a larger chunk of the weapon chart. The fighter is the only current 4th Edition class with capabilities that depend on the weapon they have chosen to train the most with. Even at 1st level, a fighter who uses an axe has a different power selection than a fighter who relies on a flail or a rapier or a pick. In the long run, fighters can diversify and master powers related to a few different weapons, but most will opt to focus on the weapon that suits their personal style, helps their interactions with the rest of the PCs in the group, and carries all the magical oomph they've managed to acquire.

Many fighters will opt for swords. Swords have the most flexible assortment of powers. In a fighter's hands, the longsword is the queen of the battlefield and the greatsword is the queen's executioner. But each of the other significant melee weapons offers the fighter unique advantages and opportunities. For the first time, you'll be able to say 'I'm an axe fighter' or 'I'm a flail fighter' and that will mean something cool.

Race:

QuoteThe Design & Development article series premiered on the D&D website back in September 2005, and has been a staple ever since. With the approach of 4th Edition, and our designers and developers focused on the new edition, this column will be the primary vehicle for 4th Edition coverage. We'll not only give you peeks at what's forthcoming, but also the 'how' and 'why.'

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You're getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to dndinsider@wizards.com.

Set the wayback machine to May of 2004!

Even at that point, we knew 4th Edition was coming, though official work on it wouldn't start for another year. At the time, the design team used to meet regularly in what we jokingly called the 'Design Cabal.' And one day, in May '04, we started kicking around the question of how many slices of pie a D&D character should consist of, and how big each piece should be.

In 3rd Edition, class and magic items were two big pieces of the PC pie. Race was important at 1st level, but by the time you hit 20th, there was rarely much to distinguish a dwarf fighter from a half-orc fighter. The difference between a +2 here and a +2 over there was drowned out by the huge bonuses from magic items and character level'"it didn't matter any more.

We wanted race to matter all the way up through a character's career. We wanted there to be some difference between two characters of different races, all other things being equal. We had tried out mechanics like the racial paragons in Unearthed Arcana and the racial substitution levels in the Races of . . . series of books, and we liked the results.

In May of 2004, we started kicking around ideas like 'the 20-level race.' In a 20-level race, at each level you gained, you'd get not only new class features, but also new racial qualities. Your race might predetermine which ability scores you increased at some levels, so a dwarf's Constitution would always have an edge over characters of other races. It would grant you new special abilities as you advanced in level, always appropriate to your level, of course.

One key advantage we saw to this system was that it made it much easier to find room for new races without resorting to the kludgy and awkward mechanic of level adjustments. If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races. Races like the githyanki already anticipated some of that idea by granting new spell-like abilities at higher levels.

Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race.

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level'"dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf's inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can't do.

The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure.

[ic=Sir Vanthas]Very well, foul troll. If you refuse to stand aside, I shall heft your smelly bulk and dash it upon yonder rocks![/ic][ooc]Good thing these new 4e grapple rules are so much faster than those horridly complicated 3e grappling rules. Sir Vanthas will try to grapple the troll and toss it into the rubble. With my one simple die roll to resolve the action, I-[/ooc]
"The Game Table is experiencing Technical Difficulties"

[ooc]Oh, we're back. Good. As I was saying, I'll just quickly-[/ooc]
"The Game Table is experiencing Technical Difficulties"

[ooc]Back again. For this quick little grapple attempt I-[/ooc]
"We're sorry, but your nominal fees are overdue. To resume gaming, please provide us with a valid credit card number."

[ooc]This is taking much longer than I had-[/ooc]
"The Game Table is Experiencing Technical Difficulties"

[ooc]hope 5e grapple faster[/ooc]
"The Game Table is Experiencing Technical Difficulties"

So currently confirmed;

*Half-Elves are still in, and they've gotten a makeover (inspiring presence)
*Racial bonuses gain power by level (I've seen that idea been bounced around alot in these forums).
*WOTC has blatantly lied to us for over two years regarding the coming of fourth edition.
*The Fighter has been changed from master of everything that can kill to specialist with one weapon. Time will tell if it makes any difference.

Quote from: Stargate525So currently confirmed;

Designers are striving their best to invent new and dorkier jargon.

(Oppy powers. :?: Oppy powers! :huh: WTF!?)

Quote from: A Nominal Fee[ic=Sir Vanthas]Very well, foul troll. If you refuse to stand aside, I shall heft your smelly bulk and dash it upon yonder rocks![/ic][ooc]Good thing these new 4e grapple rules are so much faster than those horridly complicated 3e grappling rules. Sir Vanthas will try to grapple the troll and toss it into the rubble. With my one simple die roll to resolve the action, I-[/ooc]
"The Game Table is experiencing Technical Difficulties"

[ooc]Oh, we're back. Good. As I was saying, I'll just quickly-[/ooc]
"The Game Table is experiencing Technical Difficulties"

[ooc]Back again. For this quick little grapple attempt I-[/ooc]
"We're sorry, but your nominal fees are overdue. To resume gaming, please provide us with a valid credit card number."

[ooc]This is taking much longer than I had-[/ooc]
"The Game Table is Experiencing Technical Difficulties"

[ooc]hope 5e grapple faster[/ooc]
"The Game Table is Experiencing Technical Difficulties"

Best post of the month

Monster Manual?

(http://www.shadowfell.org/pics/4EScreenies/04-MM.png)

Quote from: IshmaylBest post of the month

Not "Best Post of the Year, So Sayeth Ishmayl" (a la the similar award given out earlier today by Eldo)?

If only I had the artistic talent necessary to make it into a comic strip; then it would have been Best Post of the Year.

Quote from: IshmaylMonster Manual?

Where'd that come from? (!)

It was a screen capture in one of the two videos on this site:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

I'm sorry, but that's ugly as heck. Keep the tome style WOTC! It makes my bookshelf look sophisticated!

So, I might be the only one here on the boards who is genuinely interested and excited. I won't be holding my breath, but I definitely want to put my two 3.5 campaigns into overdrive so we can start fresh with 4th.

I'm really excited about 4th edition.  There are a lot of little things I would love to see fixed.  I probably won't see them fixed, but I'm not becoming cynical yet!  I'm excited.

I will say that I had just decided two days ago to make all new core-classes for my world because I've always had a problem with so many different types of arcane and divine and even psionic magics.  I was going to remake all of the core classes.  But I'm not going to start such a large project if 4th edition is coming out in nine months.  Sheesh, so hard to decide!

Xev, the fact that this thread was our most active in a long while says that people are excited to talk about it, at the very least.
File: 1187328274_2_FT36458_4edndinsider.pdf (//../../e107_files/public/1187328274_2_FT36458_4edndinsider.pdf)

More PDFs, retrieved from EN World's release of the press kit.
File: 1187328354_2_FT36458_4eabout4e.pdf (//../../e107_files/public/1187328354_2_FT36458_4eabout4e.pdf)
File: 1187328375_2_FT36458_4ecorerulebookfs.pdf (//../../e107_files/public/1187328375_2_FT36458_4ecorerulebookfs.pdf)

The only thing I'm frustrated with is that this announcement has instantly killed my desire to write crunch. I'm going to see about shifting gears to writing up my world's class and race fluff, so I'm ready to convert, and do what I can writing history and other fluffy goodnesses in the mean time.

Otherwise, almost everything I've seen so far has me excited; especially Tome of Battle.

I completely agree. This has actually spurred me to create my own fantasy role playing game. I dislike so much with the state of DnD right now. But the worse thing is the lack of support so many parts of their game receive. (For example, see  Magic of Incarnum)

Quote from: GnomemasterI completely agree. This has actually spurred me to create my own fantasy role playing game. I dislike so much with the state of DnD right now. But the worse thing is the lack of support so many parts of their game receive. (For example, see  Magic of Incarnum)

You know, for all of us that frequent these boards, you'd think that we could come up with an alternate d20 based (read, uses a d20, not the d20 system) gaming system as a collective.

For me, the only really frustrating thing is the timescale.  Wizards will have released 3 different sets of the core rules in just under 8 years.  Compare that to 2e, which lasted 11 years, and 1e, which lasted 10 years...  Considering also the increasing price of the books, I do worry about the future.  I'm not a doomsayer who thinks Wizards is just trying to drain high schoolers of their spending cash, but I do worry about a dwindling market.

Two videos that I haven't seen linked yet.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

Rose, I linked those on the previous page.  Shows as clip of the new Monster Manual.

I have to say, I'm not a big fan of the story book cover art.  I think these books had a pretty dignified look in 3E, and I think it's a shame that the art looks that way for covers.  Save it for the inside folds or something.

The enworld front page has been updated with Morris' answers and reviews of various information, and there's some good stuff there.  I'm not going to post it all here, but you should go to enworld.org and read the entire front page.  There's good news about 4E SRD and OGL.

Of an interesting note, I'm wondering exactly what the 160-less page count per core book means... less content for the same price?  Easier (and thus, shorter) rules?  My sad guess is that it means a lot of stuff is going to be DNDinsider.com exclusive, meaning you have to pay for the "special edition" (like a DVD... get it?) to get access to some of the stuff, but we'll see.

I'm waiting for the new SRD. I do believe the new edition will be better at what the game has always been best at (kitchen-sink high fantasy fighting, preferably in cavernous locations). I doubt it will branch out significantly, compared to the current incarnation, which means that I won't be playing it that much.

So everything that WotC is saying is revolutionary about 4e my group has been doing for about 2 years now. We gather every other saturday at by buddy Cory's and everyone sets up their laptop/desktop. We have excel character sheets, an online shared battlemat (using google docs/spreadsheets) that we can all modify on the fly, and have most books in pdf format. So my question is, how is this "revolutionary"?

The internet gaming table looks cool (ish). Otherwise though... I don't really see why we're bothering with a new edition.

Granted, the grappling rules are rather...well, stupid. There is also a lot of work that can be done to streamline the game (like making your ranks in choosable class skills equal to your level, half of that for crossclass) and even regulating hit points by race with the class choice determining starting HP only. But, a lot of people who love fluff already do this sort of stuff and have been crunching this system into a more playable and versatile system.

For all it's worth, I like Stargate's idea.  We should just create our own deviant of a D20 system.  The CBG could make just as quality a product as Wizards, I'm sure.  :axe:

Quote from: MittenNinjaSo my question is, how is this "revolutionary"?

Because now WOTC is going to charge you for it!

Quote from: JharvissFor all it's worth, I like Stargate's idea.  We should just create our own deviant of a D20 system.  The CBG could make just as quality a product as Wizards, I'm sure.  :axe:

Jharviss, it's actually been attempted before.  There was a large project awhile back called "A New Way to Play" or something like that, but like most projects where people aren't truly interested, it disappeared.

[blockquote Jharviss]The CBG could make just as quality a product as Wizards, I'm sure.[/blockquote]

At least we don't need to gather human souls to put in our products...

I'm starting to think that almost every possible idea has been attempted at the CBG.

Quote from: JharvissI'm starting to think that almost every possible idea has been attempted at the CBG.

Twice, usually.

Quote from: Kap'n XeviatThe only thing I'm frustrated with is that this announcement has instantly killed my desire to write crunch. I'm going to see about shifting gears to writing up my world's class and race fluff, so I'm ready to convert, and do what I can writing history and other fluffy goodnesses in the mean time.

Otherwise, almost everything I've seen so far has me excited; especially Tome of Battle.

I'm totally with you on the crunch thing. I have literally like a hundred feats, 10 prestige classes, 25 fully stated affiliations (PHB II style), more than 50 alternate class features, and other crunchy bits for my homebrew...all for naught if I'm going to adopt a new edition of rules.

Yet, I'm still exited about 4E.

Anybody want some free 3.5 crunch?

Quote from: MittenNinjaSo everything that WotC is saying is revolutionary about 4e my group has been doing for about 2 years now. We gather every other saturday at by buddy Cory's and everyone sets up their laptop/desktop. We have excel character sheets, an online shared battlemat (using google docs/spreadsheets) that we can all modify on the fly, and have most books in pdf format. So my question is, how is this "revolutionary"?

Well I can say only the following:
* the group I play with meets sometimes at somebody else's house, so bringing your desktop computer is not really that practical
* only one of us has a laptop
* excel sheets suck, because they usually don't work with OOo and I don't have the ~130,¬ for a MSO student license :P
* with the same people I play "Ars Magica", and I can tell you, having somebody store his character in a Word document and hide behind the screen all the time sucks :-/
* not all books are legally available in PDF format ;)

:P

Quote from: IshmaylJharviss, it's actually been attempted before.  There was a large project awhile back called "A New Way to Play" or something like that, but like most projects where people aren't truly interested, it disappeared.

Quite literally, it seems. I can't even locate the thread.

Oh well, time for a new thread then.

Quote from: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_116Monte Cook's[/url] pet peeves.

Quote from: Monte CookCall this a rant if you will, but I'm so tired of this flavorless cover trend that I just had to say something. Even our own Malhavoc Press covers have flirted with this trend, I'll admit. While we don't do the faux-cover books (and never will), we've had a few covers that basically show a single figure without a lot of action. I guess that's okay occasionally, if the figure is really intriguing. Perhaps a better way to express my feeling is to say that, rather than always needing "action," a cover should always be "adventure-inspiring." In other words, it should make me want to play the game.

I see his point on the just-a-book covers really, but i liked the "faux-book with window" ones. (Tome and Blood, Master's of the Wild, etc.)

My personal opinion is that the Tome of Magic is one of the most beautiful covers (and books for that matter) ever designed in the role playing industry, and I would happily shell out more money for that type of book.  As ElDo told me in conversation, the only issue I would have is that I would be worried about damaging it everytime I opened it up ;)

Quote from: Soup Nazi

Quote from: Kap'n XeviatThe only thing I'm frustrated with is that this announcement has instantly killed my desire to write crunch. I'm going to see about shifting gears to writing up my world's class and race fluff, so I'm ready to convert, and do what I can writing history and other fluffy goodnesses in the mean time.

Otherwise, almost everything I've seen so far has me excited; especially Tome of Battle.

I'm totally with you on the crunch thing. I have literally like a hundred feats, 10 prestige classes, 25 fully stated affiliations (PHB II style), more than 50 alternate class features, and other crunchy bits for my homebrew...all for naught if I'm going to adopt a new edition of rules.

Yet, I'm still exited about 4E.

Anybody want some free 3.5 crunch?

Submit them to the new Dragon and Dungeon magazines. You'll get paid for them if Wizards likes them.

Quote from: Stargate525Quite literally, it seems. I can't even locate the thread.

Oh well, time for a new thread then.

Anything specific in mind yet? ^^

This is the sign up page, where you put in your personal information and tell us a bit about your interests and preferences (so you we can steal your soul). Note that we want to know about and provide content on all the games you play, not just Wizards games(so we can destroy them! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH).


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Quote from: Ra-Tiel

Quote from: Stargate525Quite literally, it seems. I can't even locate the thread.

Oh well, time for a new thread then.

Anything specific in mind yet? ^^

Well, do we want to build from the ground up, or work off of a d20 skeleton?

Quote from: Stargate525Well, do we want to build from the ground up, or work off of a d20 skeleton?

Well, I'm open for anything, but there are some things I must insist on. ;)

1) No critical hit tables, no critical misses, and no random hit location system.
2) No standard v3.5 magic with an unimaginable abundance of redundant spells.
3) Character concept dictates mechanics, not the other way round.
4) Generally speaking, rules should be easy and intuitive (read: everything specific combat actions like grapple, disarm, etc in v3.5 are not).

:P :D

Quote from: AtlantisNote that we want to know about and provide content on all the games you play, not just Wizards games(so we can destroy them! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH).

Er... aren't THOSE all wizard's games?

(http://www.wizards.com/images/gencon07/4e_books.jpg)

Those are the covers

I'm not sure I'm a fan of the Player's Handbook cover.  I especially hate when designers make swords look like that.  No normal hero wields a sword that thick.  I think I like the other two though.  The Monster Manual one looks cool.

I read through that Monte Cook article on book covers and I really agreed with it.  I think these are better than the faux-book bookcover.

[blockquote Ra-Tiel] [blockquote SG]Well, do we want to work from the ground up or work off a D20 skeleton?[/blockquote]
Well, I'm open for anything, but there are some things I must insist on.  

1) No critical hit tables, no critical misses, and no random hit location system.
2) No standard v3.5 magic with an unimaginable abundance of redundant spells.
3) Character concept dictates mechanics, not the other way round.
4) Generally speaking, rules should be easy and intuitive (read: everything specific combat actions like grapple, disarm, etc in v3.5 are not).

  [/blockquote]
Maybe we should try using an elder scrolls like system with the leveling up the major skills to get to a higher level, etc. The classes from that type of system would be easily created with simply the major and minor skills. We could add in feats and ability scores ourselves.

Howabouts instead of classes, each level you get points that you spend to get abilities, such as HD, feats, spels, etc.

covers: Hate it, hate it, love it, in that order.

system: Instead of derailing this, I'll get a thread going.

maybe, we should use no classes but use Sir vorpal'sidea with major and minor skills.
       For example, Bob, the street magician has 3 major skills: Haggling, Magic: Arcane, and Entertain.
      His minor skills are Houskeeping, Drinking, Acrobatics, and Magic: Healing.  
          He has the spell Control Rope. When performing, he got his Entertain suficiently high enough to level up. Now he gets a certain amount of Character points to spend. He decides to buy the feat Charismatic Aura and the spell Shrink creature. He has one more point left to spend so he buys another minor skill: Dancing.
         The abilities might be Strength, Intelligence, Charisma, Awareness, Dexterity, Health. Because he leveled up, he gets to put one more point in the abilitie which corresponds to the skill that he leveled up through.


Edit: Sorry, i didnt see the new post bout makin a thread.

Quote from: JharvissI'm not sure I'm a fan of the Player's Handbook cover.  I especially hate when designers make swords look like that.  No normal hero wields a sword that thick.

Not to mention the fact that the PHB cover chick is wielding a sword that's thicker than her own waist!

Maybe it's a mithril blade that's super light and actually used as a piercing weapon so that it leaves deep gashes when she attacks with it.

But probably not.

Quote from: JharvissBut probably not.

Yeah. I'm guessing not.

And incidentally, why does the name of this thread still end in question marks? I vote that the question marks should be changed to exclamation points!

Quote from: Ra-TielWell I can say only the following:
* the group I play with meets sometimes at somebody else's house, so bringing your desktop computer is not really that practical
* only one of us has a laptop
* excel sheets suck, because they usually don't work with OOo and I don't have the ~130,¬ for a MSO student license :P
* with the same people I play "Ars Magica", and I can tell you, having somebody store his character in a Word document and hide behind the screen all the time sucks :-/
* not all books are legally available in PDF format ;)

:P

Well, actually we use Open Office, I just threw out excel cause not everyone knows what open office is. We've created a sheet that calculates many of the simple additions and such but which isn't limiting enough to make it uncustomizable. It works rather well.

Despite the fact that we are all using computers there is actually very little time "spent behind a screen." Because all of the info we need is right in front of our fingertips at all times we actually have more time to focus on he game at hand, and the roleplaying. Not to mention, player handouts become very simple as you can just e-mail them to everyone.

I have no solution for the legality of PDFs but there's nothing stoppingyou from having your books on hand.

Quote from: IshmaylBest post of the month

If you liked the post Ishy called best of the month, check this out:

URL (http://www.geocities.com/d20guy/)
Boo-ya!

(I spent much longer than I should have working on that silly thing.)

@Nominal Fee: LOL! :D