About a year and a half ago, I remember reading an angry rant by a virulent anti-3e gamer, who predicted that once 4e was announced (he predicted it would be out by now, mind) some of the 'sheep' who had followed the WotC line to 3e and then 3.5e would 'wake up' and come crawling back to the older editions of the game. This idea is not meant to give credence to that rant. I still maintain that 3e was in many ways a VAST improvement over what came before it.
However, of late nostalgia has been creeping back into me for the edition I first cut my roleplaying teeth on, AD&D 2e, and especially for the only prepublished setting I ever truly loved, Planescape. I want to run a AD&D2e game in this Setting of Settings. Problem is, nobody I know around here is versed in older editions or willing to learn (unlike me, most of the kids at my college started playing in high school, ie, 2001 and beyond.) My old online 2e group has been scattered to the four corners of the globe.
So I'm asking to see whether there would be any folks around here - either oldtimers who remember the game and the setting, or newcomers who would be interested in a blast from the past. We'd play online (with no nominal fee!) via AIM, IRC, or something. (I'm REALLY not keen on play-by-post, but if enough people want to play for whom this is the only allowable option, I'll change my tune.)
(Newcomers will be directed to RPGNOW, http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=16868&it=1 where the 2e Player's Handbook is available for perfectly legal download for $6. If that's not feasible, we'll work something out in the form of a crash course.)
I gotta be honest... it will be a very long time before I am interested in using THAC0 again. :)
I honestly never had a problem with THAC0, m'self. Besides, as DM the difficult question of whether or not a given roll hits will fall squarely on my shoulders. ;)
It's the game of the Baldur's Gate saga, people!! Baldur's Gate!
I happen to like the old school proficiencies, but THAC0 doesn't sound fun to me either.
Shh, guys. You'll scare away any potential players if you keep pooping on my parade!
To anyone who may be considering it - it's really, honestly not that bad. The AC scale is a little confusing at first, especially since the 3e version is a little more intuitive, but all the tricky work is done for you by your intrepid DM. ;)
I might be interested. THAC0, thats where the higst AC you can get is zero, right?
AC scales from 10 (the worst you can have) to -10 (the lowest you can have)
THAC0 (To hit armor class zero) is the number you need to hit AC 0. THAC0 begins at 20 for most classes and 19 for paladins, rangers, and fighters and drops lower as you gain levels; it's basically BAB in reverse.
The chart for THAC0 if you don't already have it memorized is on page 91 of the PHB. Saving throws are on page 101 (which I no longer have memorized).
C'mon people, no love for the old stuff?
EDIT: I got rid of my 2E books many moons ago, but I think I still have the rules down well enough to try this. Are 2E psionics in too?
I would be open to whatever subsystems people wanted. 2e psionics (either Skills and Powers version or Complete Psionicist version) would be fine.
The only thing I won't compromise on is the setting - I have a planescape urge like you wouldn't believe. ;)
I still have a wealth of 2e material and I'm more than happy to give those who are rusty or unlearned a 'crash course' of sorts.
I want in. Espcilly after reading this part:
Quote from: Kalos MerI would be open to whatever subsystems people wanted. 2e psionics (either Skills and Powers version or Complete Psionicist version) would be fine.
The only thing I won't compromise on is the setting - I have a planescape urge like you wouldn't believe. ;)
I still have a wealth of 2e material and I'm more than happy to give those who are rusty or unlearned a 'crash course' of sorts.
I'm not that keen on the Planescape setting, but I had some killer ideas for 2e characters recently, after getting my hands on
Spells & Magic and
Combat & Tactics.
Is one of the weird
Spells & Magic specialist wizard types okay? I kinda like Geometers and Alchemists.
I'd love to give it a try, but everything I know about 2nd ed. I learned from Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment. If there's someone who can help me with the particular crunchy bits of character creation, sign me up.
Bill: As I said before, I'd be happy to help you with the crunch. (And compared to 3e, there's a lot LESS crunch to character creation) If you can't afford (or can, but don't want to spend $6) to buy the old Player's Handbook at the URL I gave above, we'll work something out.
Khyron - I'd be curious to hear what you didn't like about Planescape. *Most* people I've talked to who profess not to like the setting usually had a bad experience or two under a particular DM who (in my opinion) presented the setting poorly. That's not to say that nobody could possibly *legitimately* dislike the setting, I'm just wondering what your reasons are.
As far as weird Spells & Magic types go - absolutely allowable. My only limitations as far as this game are concerned are the following:
(A) I'd prefer if the races were kept to Planescape standard. This is 2e, not 3e - weird templated 'level-adjustment' type characters are NOT happening. Something SLIGHTLY out of the ordinary could be negotiated, but a half-dragon celestial minotaur? meh.
(B) Only draw on books that I have. This isn't much of a limitation - I own the complete revised core, the Psionicist handbook, the complete Players Option line, the Tome of Magic, and the entire Planescape line - about 2/3 in hard copy, and the rest in (legitimately purchased) pdf copies. Basically, keep asking to be sure but you can fairly safely assume that I have it. (In the 2e days I was much more of a 'buy everything that comes out' kind of player than in my 3e days - my parents tended to foot the bill much more freely in those days, so I was spoiled a bit.)
Edit: And besides, if you have an idea coming from an old book I *don't* own, odds are I might be interested in going and buying the PDF anyway. ;)
So just so I understand:
Bill: Signed up, needs some instruction
Khyron: Wants in, though not too keen on the setting, has some interesting magic-user ideas.
Soup Nazi: Thinks he could handle it, used to own the books. Interested potentially in a psionic character.
Sir Vorpal: Might be interested, needs filling in about some of the details
Ishmayl and Seraphine: Not willing to use THACO even if it was to make an attack with a standard ten-foot pole.
People who ARE interested or considering it - do you have a preference as to the medium? IRC, AIM, PbP (again, PbP would be a last choice for me, but it's a choice I'm willing to make if it's necessary to get this nostalgia game off the ground. ;))
And of course, other people who are interested are still welcome - I hesitate to make a firm declaration, but anywhere between 3ish and 6ish PCs would be ideal from my perspective. (Though 2e combat was a lot quicker than 3e, above 6 PCs in my experience it can still get rather clunky.)
I'm pretty much only able to do PbP. Most of my online activities happen while I'm at work, and since I have an irregular schedule its very hard to plan around it. I might just have to play something other than a psionicist though (even though its my first choice), since I'd basically be doing it completely bind (without the books). A wizard on the other hand, I could play with my eyes shut, so perhaps that is the better choice from a practical standpoint.
If PbP is not your ideal choice, I can understand that. Consider me an alternate that will fill a gap if you can't get enough people to do IRC or AIM. I'd still be interested in hearing about the campaign though, whether I play or not.
Quote from: Kalos MerKhyron - I'd be curious to hear what you didn't like about Planescape. *Most* people I've talked to who profess not to like the setting usually had a bad experience or two under a particular DM who (in my opinion) presented the setting poorly. That's not to say that nobody could possibly *legitimately* dislike the setting, I'm just wondering what your reasons are.
As far as weird Spells & Magic types go - absolutely allowable. My only limitations as far as this game are concerned are the following:
(A) I'd prefer if the races were kept to Planescape standard. This is 2e, not 3e - weird templated 'level-adjustment' type characters are NOT happening. Something SLIGHTLY out of the ordinary could be negotiated, but a half-dragon celestial minotaur? meh.
(B) Only draw on books that I have. This isn't much of a limitation - I own the complete revised core, the Psionicist handbook, the complete Players Option line, the Tome of Magic, and the entire Planescape line - about 2/3 in hard copy, and the rest in (legitimately purchased) pdf copies. Basically, keep asking to be sure but you can fairly safely assume that I have it. (In the 2e days I was much more of a 'buy everything that comes out' kind of player than in my 3e days - my parents tended to foot the bill much more freely in those days, so I was spoiled a bit.)
Edit: And besides, if you have an idea coming from an old book I *don't* own, odds are I might be interested in going and buying the PDF anyway. ;)
Planescape standard races? That's like PHB races plus Bariaur, Tielfing, and Aasimar, right?
As for my Planescape dislike, it could have been a DM mishandling things thing. I really have only one experience. It was more than a couple years ago, so I don't remember a lot of details. The thing I remember most about the session is that one of the other PCs was one of the Wariors of Heaven celestial races and his character kind of upstaged everybody a bit.
So, a Geometer or Alchemist is maybe approved. Can I be one of the Wizards of the Black Teddy faction? It was a joke thing from an April issue of Dragon (#216), but I really like it.
I'd absolutely love to be in your game!
...
That said, there might be constraints of a practical nature:
1) Time constraints. I guess I'm not the only one, but I happen to be rather busy. Depending on the pace you're running this game at, I might not be able to make it in because of this.
2) Location constraints. This will be a problem if we go the chat-route (which I'd nonetheless prefer) rather than the PbP-route: I'm on Central European Time, which means my nights are East-Coasters' evenings and West-Coasters' mornings.
3) Knowledge constraints. My only familiarity with 2E is from Baldur's Gate (though I did read the details about THAC0 and such that were in its manual) and I know virtually nothing about Planescape. As far as buying books online goes, anything that requires you to have a credit card (most online purchases in my experience) is off limits, since I don't have one. A crash course will be necessary I suppose.
None of these are insurmountable, but I'm not getting too deep into this before there's been some agreement on the above three issues. How often would you like to run a session? How long would such a session be? What day and time do you have in mind?
Túrin
As for the format, I don't much care for AIM and I have some bad experiences with PbP, but I'll PbP if everyone can agree to some kind of schedule or promise to post regularly.
Any ideas about the focus of the campaign itself - so I can think about what kind of character to make? Will you have a theme or story in mind, or will we just be free to bum around in Sigil as we please? Should we all belong to the same faction or something?
And although I've never personally experienced the joys of potion miscibility rules, changing my spot in the initiative order every single turn, or attacking one-and-a-half times in a round, I should be able to sausage through it once I get that pdf for reference.
And on a side note, I just found the best thing ever: http://www.mimir.net/cant/cant2.html
(1) General question, brought up by Turin: What time zone is everybody in? If it's not a US time zone, please include what it is relative to GMT so I have some sense of things. I'm in the Eastern Standard Time Zone, GMT -5. However, as I said before my schedule is EXTREMELY flexible with the exception of 12-6 Tuesdays through Thursdays.
If by some miracle a convenient time can be found for IRC or some other chat-based session to be held, I'd still prefer it. However, after thinking about it a good bit I'm less averse to the idea of PbP than I was yesterday, as long as people can check in with some previously agreed upon regularity.
Now, addressing particular questions/comments:
[spoiler=Bill Volk] I've got a few interesting ideas in mind for stories I've been wanting to tell in the Planescape multiverse. However, I don't want to give the campaign an overarching plotline or 'theme' from the get-go. For the PC creation, just design a character you think would be fun to play. You don't have to all be the same faction, though I'd appreciate it if you coordinated it enough that we didn't have immediate interparty conflict from Day One (Ie, 2 Anarchists, a Guvner and a Hardhead = Bad News!)[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Turin] (A) Although my schedule has the benefit of being extremely flexible, I too am rather busy (in the next year I'll be writing a 75+ page thesis, taking several advanced Greek seminars, and applying to grad schools). This game will not be extremely time-intensive. If we go the chat rather than PbP route, I'd prefer to play either once a week or once every two weeks, depending on people's schedules. (Less than that and it can be hard to maintain a sense of continuity, I find.) The amount of time per session in chat format would be flexible - I prefer a minimum of about 3 hours, but honestly, as long as we get some good 'old-school' gaming in, I'll be happy. I don't have a lot of pre-conceived notions about how this game has to go.
(One major advantage of 2e over 3.x is that it requires a lot less out-of-game planning on the part of the players: some during character creation, but almost none afterwards.)
(B) See above. Depending on the time zones of other players involved, I have no problem running a session at what is (for me) unorthodox hours. If it is a problem for other players, than I'm willing to go the PbP route.
(C) Don't sweat it. If you had a pretty good grasp on how Baldur's Gate worked, you can learn to run a 2e PC without too much difficulty. As far as Planescape goes - the most obvious solution would be for you to play a 'Prime' - a character freshly arrived on the Planes from some prime material plane like Faerun. If that doesn't appeal to you, I can give you a crash course in the setting as well. I love talking about Planescape. ;)[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Khyron]Planescape standard races means Humans, Rogue Modrons, Githzerai, Aasimar, Genasi, Tieflings and Bariaur. If you wanted to play a Prime or were just really set on playing a standard demihuman on the Planes, that'd be cool too. All I meant by that comment was that weird 'monstrous races' were not really appropriate.
Sounds like you had a bit of a 'rotten DM experience'. Warriors of Heaven is alright when all the PCs are playing celestials, but I can't really see it working in a mixed group.
I'm not familiar with the Black Teddy Faction. Tell me a little more? (Somewhere at my parents' house I have the old CD set of archives of Dragon Mags #1-250, I'll look it up next time I'm back.) I'd prefer nothing TOO ridiculous, but a little tongue-in-cheek humor is very in keeping with Planescape.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Soup Nazi] It sounds like there's a reasonable chance that we will go the PbP route, in which case I hope you'll join in. If not, if this trip down memory lane goes well, I'll be writing it up in a narrative format for the Crossroads or something.[/spoiler]
Ok, I'm on GMT+1 (actually, right now we're on DST so it's GMT+2). If we could set up a live game (rather than PbP) at reasonable times for all involved I'd prefer that. In theory (but this depends largely on the day we'll be playing, *my* schedule for the next semester is pretty much set in stone) anywhere between 3 PM and 1 AM might work for me (that would be 8 AM and 6 PM for you).
Túrin
Never done 2e, nor Planescape. The idea sounds intriguing, but I'm a tad nervous about my utter lack of experience. I'm not sure whether or not I'll join in yet...
2e is definitely not for everyone, but I would encourage you not to worry much about lack of experience. The rules (in my experience) are a lot quicker to pick up than 3e, after you get over a few mathematical quirks (lower AC/THAC0 is better than high, ability scores are not yet 'standardized', etc). Planescape can be a bit baffling, but as I was telling Turin, there are ways to make a lack of knowledge about the setting a point of characterization rather than a weakness of the player.
I'm Eastern Standard time, but I'll be on Central time come October.
and another thing - what level will we be starting at, and which method of rolling ability scores will we use?
Give me a day or two on the method of rolling ability scores, I'm currently waiting on my vast collection of 2e books which are arriving from my parents' house (I brought a couple of them with me when I moved out into my own place, but not the core books since I never anticipated playing/running 2e again).
Unless people strongly object, in 2e it was always my tendency to start off at level 1. If you feel that would be too crippling, though, it'd be fine to start a little higher (decidedly still a 'low level' though).
If I could get a definitive count in the next 2-3 days of
(A) Who's willing/able to play if we do mIRC/AIM
(B) Who's willing/able if we do PbP
(C) What hours you're available for mIRC/AIM chat sessions (and in what time zone those hours apply)
(D) Who needs what in the way of help/instruction from me
it would be great.
As far as a timeframe - like I said, my books are arriving in the next couple days, at which point I can begin planning an initial adventure and I can help those of you who need help building a 2e character. (Obviously for that we'll take it to PMs/e-mail/chatware).
I cannot believe anyone would ever want to play 2nd edition, especially after using d20 rules.
THAC0, aarg! :(
I don't understand what people found so deal-breakingly difficult about THAC0. Yes, it's less intuitive than BAB. I'll grant you that. But it's not impossible to understand:
You subtract your target's AC from your THAC0. You have to roll over the resulting total to hit.
I'lladmit that it's not the absolutely simplest method that they could have come up with, but it's not something requiring an engineering degree to master.
Ordinarily I wouldn't mind having this discussion, but this isn't a 'debate 2e' thread, it's a 'who wants to play some 2e' thread, and people who portray 2e as arcane, incomprehensible gibberish are going to drive away people who might potentially want to play.
Hehe, easy dude. I'm sure those who are into this won't let themselves be scared away by a post like that.
QuoteUnless people strongly object, in 2e it was always my tendency to start off at level 1. If you feel that would be too crippling, though, it'd be fine to start a little higher (decidedly still a 'low level' though).
(A) Who's willing/able to play if we do mIRC/AIM[/quote](B) Who's willing/able if we do PbP[/quote](C) What hours you're available for mIRC/AIM chat sessions (and in what time zone those hours apply)[/quote](D) Who needs what in the way of help/instruction from me[/quote]
A crash course 2E would be great. I'd like to know a little about Planescape beforehand as well.
Túrin
Quote from: Kalos Mer(A) Who's willing/able to play if we do mIRC/AIM
(B) Who's willing/able if we do PbP
(C) What hours you're available for mIRC/AIM chat sessions (and in what time zone those hours apply)
(D) Who needs what in the way of help/instruction from me
To answer an old question first, I'm on Eastern Daylight time.
A) Not I.
B) I Am.
C) Random and seldom to never. I work fast food at a place where my schedule changes a lot from week to week. I also don't know what kind of software is involved in doing IRC, but I am on a shared computer, and I think my dad would prefer me not to download too much stuff.
D) Not a lot in the way of instruction, but I will probably need approval of certain ideas.
(A) Who's willing/able to play if we do mIRC/AIM
Sure.
(B) Who's willing/able if we do PbP
Yep.
(C) What hours you're available for mIRC/AIM chat sessions (and in what time zone those hours apply)
usually after 10:30 Eastern time
(D) Who needs what in the way of help/instruction from me
I'm a little iffy on the 2nd ed. rules, but I'm enough of a blood on the setting to play a non-Clueless if it's called for.
It's sounding like PbP may be the best viable option to let the greatest number of people play around their busy schedules. I won't say quite yet that this is the way we're going, but it seems to make sense.
Here are my thoughts on what kind of character I'd like to play when the time comes.
I'd like to take advantage of as much unique 2nd ed. goodness as possible without having to refer to the rules too much during play. I'm leaning toward a multiclass fighter/thief. Can tieflings be those?
As for personality/faction/etc, I guess I need to be somewhat of a smiley, the way things are going. It'd be hard to be a Fated or a Doomguard with a gaggle of lemons in tow. Maybe a Bleaker who's sick of watching planars walk all over the new meat from the Prime?
Sorry for going AWOL for a couple days there, but I was kinda sick. I'm back now.
A tiefling can be a fighter/thief. Annah in Planescape Torment was fighter/thief tiefling, wasn't she? A Bleaker sounds fine, but do me a favor and make sure your Bleaker has SOME motivation left. The last Bleaker I DM'd for... didn't do much.
Next question to the whole group - is RPOL.net an acceptable choice for a place to host the PbP game? It would be preferable to me because the extra functionality and the ability to have a number of threads devoted to the game would make such things as explaining the system/setting to the less experienced a lot easier.
RPOL's fine by me, as long as it's free.
Yes, it's entirely free. Once I hear back from the other people who were interested, I'll start up a game there.
You can check it out here: http:///rpol.net
Sounds good.
Update: any new people who are interested in joining the game, please send me a PM and I'll give you the info - we've got a good-sized group but we can take one or two more.