The Campaign Builder's Guild

With all these campaign settings, and their many pantheons floating around I would like to ask a question that I have been struggling with for some time(well a series of questions really) of the many brilliant and talented designers.

How do you come up with ideas for complex and interesting deities? How do you format the entries to your deities? Does you deity entry cover everything to do with that deities faith? (Such as types of followers, rituals, sacred events and places etc'¦) or just about the Deity themselves (their moods, deities they like/dislike)?

example: Ive been trying to develop five deities for my campaign setting, each made up of one major element; fire, water, earth, air and shadow but struggle with putting my vague ideas in any sort of order.

Well Kalin, let me just say that I always begin my campaigns with the thought: What kinds of gods live in my multiverse?

The first thing I work on are the names: For our example of how I construct a god we are going to work with my most recent godling Vanic.

So his name is Vanic, what are some of the titles his worshippers often call him? (If you notice, God and Jesus are often referred to as "Our Lord", "Lord", or the "King of Kings"

For Vanic, worshipers in the Empire often call him "The All-Emperor", or the "First Emperor", and occasionally "The Lord Almighty" Feel free to have these titles really represent the deity, like a god of fire could be "The Flame-Lord"
 or the "All Consuming".

I then focus on some of his profiles or portfolios (I never liked the term portfolio, it sounds like a god is a stock broker.) What is he God of? For me, Vanic is the god of Mankind, Conquest, Domination, Space Exploration, and Faster Than Light Travel. These can vary as much as you want.

Then I write up the domains that co-inside with the Portfolio. Since I really am not using 3.5 for this game, Vanic has no portfolios per say

Then I usually write up a nice history and description of the deity that may include some of his more interesting rites. I only write interesting ones (don't bother with the rite of birth unless it includes something cool or something with game-play)

The deities are only useful in the context of play. Think of the role of the deities in general (uncaring Cthulhuesque monsters, malevolent demons, distant entities, meddling superhumans, benevolent and caring parents, a mix of them).

Next, how can player characters interact with them? Do they give power to priests or devout adepts? Does the magic they grant make you insane, or are only the insane dumb enough to ask for their "blessings"? Do you need to be a devout monk-like spiritualist to even as much as glimpse their glory? Do the gods grant minor powers to all who worship them?

After you know what the gods will be doing in game, start coming up with the deities themselves. The organisations, cults, temples, human sacrifices, etc. of the religions are much more relevant than the dislikes of the actual gods, because it is a rare event for the deity to appear, and common for the believers to do so.

Kishar uses all real-world deities, so coming up with them is not difficult ;)

That said, I always try to look at the myth and extrapolate from it a complex character for the deity, and one that I can twist and tweak a little. Often, I tend to make even the "nice" ones a little darker than they first seem.

Also, I use the term "deity" fluidly to refer to any supernatural creature, in particular since many societies are animistic. But there's really no type that I actually say -- these are gods, and the rest aren't.

I find it helpful to go in reverse.
I start with the type of worship and cultural context, and add in some themes.  
AS an example, my factional world needs intrigue and human misunderstanding, which in turn brought forth a huge pantheon of celstial planars that are too complicated for humans to undestand, as I want to have competing religions for the same deities.

You're doing some elemental worship.  Ok, then.
Are they the world creators, or not?
Are they the only pantheon, or not?
Do they control and originate the elements, or are they products of them?
do you want to have churches, shrines, or what organizational level?

I actually have more much more lengthy and organized writeups on the religion and churches rather than they gods themselves.  I find the players are going to interact with the religion a lot, and the Gods not so much.
So I look at the organization of a church, their particular slant on the belief system, their affect on the local populace, notable NPC's and allies, holy days and the 'look' that might characterize them (In Igbar, the active brethren of Vernidale the Green Mother actually wear living ivy, and have spells that affect and use it.  There is a cult of Vernidale the Serpent Queen also existing in the church, but no players know it...yet.  Hence, the different aspects of a deity and how humans worship them can also be seen).

Hope that helps.

For Orden's Mysteries' pantheon, I decided to think first of all the themes/portfolio elements I wanted to have represented in some way (I decided this on the basis of: which parts of life are important enough in this culture that they have a god in their pantheon who has it as a portfolio element?). I started grouping these by theme which gave me something between 30 and 40 "portfolio sets". I had already decided I wanted to have 19 deities in this pantheon. This led me to the next and most interesting step: taking two 'themed' sets of portfolio elements and creating a single deity out of them. Thinking about what kind of themes and ideas would be incorporated by a group of people which emphasize these two themes was an interesting creative exercise. If you look at my pantheon here (http://www.thecbg.org/settings/12/pantheon.html), you will notice some deities still have a portfolio that consists of two disparate parts, primarily Zyndogo (darkness, shadow, wilderness, natural life) and Burdimorn (magic, serenity, peace), but in most other cases you will no longer be able to tell the two sets apart (I think).

Actually, I continued this idea whil creating churches. Orden's churches each worship a subset of the pantheon's deities, thus blending their ideas and creating less one-dimensional religions. Examples are the Morvindhic Church (http://www.thecbg.org/settings/12/morvindhic.html) and the Ormedish Church (http://www.thecbg.org/settings/12/ormedish.html).

For your own pantheon, I would recommend (for completeness' sake) to first think about the ideas you really feel should be incorporated in this religion, and assign them to one or more of the five deities. Think about tying different themes you want to represent in a deity together and add and expand to that.

That's one approach, at least.

;) Túrin

For my own purposes, the things that mortals believe about their deities are more important than any actual facts about those deities. (This is part of why I keep those facts unknown. I provide no proof that any Jade Stage deities exist at all.)

So, I approach them from this angle: What do these mortals need to believe?

I like having "absent" gods because it means the mortals built their own religions, rather than having them handed down on stone tablets from on high. This lets me use religions as commentaries on the cultures who practice them.

So I use deities like Jatta Skyfather and Salma Earthmother to help mortals answer questions like "why are we here?" and "where does rain come from?", and the personalities of these gods reflect a cultural belief in the importance of patience, fairness, and other values. Add the spiteful goddess of winter and hardship, and we account for the cycle of the seasons, as well as the flaws in human character. The Hunger, an imprisoned god of fire and destruction, illustrates the idea that dangerous forces can be harnessed and controlled (and conveniently provides symbolism linking fire and evil, which I use for the Burning Wars.)

To some extent, it's a process of looking for phenomena that people would probably feel the need to explain through myth, and then writing the myths that fit those needs.

To some other extent, it's attributing qualities to gods that mortals would want to respect or fear. If a culture prizes courage, gods worthy of their respect should probably do some courageous things.

Thanks for the help so far guys, but one question i often hear the term portfolio thrown around when ever deity entries are discussed, just what is a portfolio? (i always get the image that my deities carry around suitcases)


Also i have one Deity at least partially written out now.

Pyrus
Titles: Shining One, Lord of Fire, Light Giver.
Domains: Fire, Sand, Magma, Thirst, Sun.
Symbol: A stylized flame often embedded in black circular pendant.
Favored Weapon: Great Scimitar

Pyrus is the Aeons formed from, and forever connected to the lifestream of the plane of fire, and because of this Pyrus is heavily associated with the element of fire. And while Pyrus himself is a strongly passionate Aeon and is not one to cross lightly, lest you feel his fiery wrath, he is also relentlessly persistent in uncovering truth in all matters and has little patience for those that hide it, and is not one to sit around idle, pondering this or that, and because of his restless nature his influence stretches far and wide encouraging his followers to walk the path of light and abandon the darkness and all that it hides and to use his gift to purify those that do not walk in the light.

Pyrus's true form is unknown, however he is often depicted as [insert depiction about lighting the darkness and holding a flaming great scimitar] and is the foremost reason the most devotes of Pyrus carry this weapon.

What do you think?

Quote from: KalinThanks for the help so far guys, but one question i often hear the term portfolio thrown around when ever deity entries are discussed, just what is a portfolio? (i always get the image that my deities carry around suitcases)

What do you think?[/quote]And more specifically, about this particular god, why does Pyrus need a scimitar if he's made of fire? What does he use it on?[/ooc]

When I made the demiurges for The Overture, I didn't worry about dividing up every possible portfolio among them or making things symmetrical; I just tried to think of them as characters. I tried to ask myself, "If I were a being with all these powers, and things had just gotten started, and I had a whole continent to play around in, what sorts of things might I do?"

I think that treating gods as abstractions and philosophies is a mistake in most D&D settings. They're more like characters than impersonal forces. In a world where gods interact with mortals and grant them spells every day, the gods' changes of mood and messy social interactions will affect their worshippers dramatically. Things will be much more dynamic than real-world faiths are.

[spoiler Fanboyism]I think I need to come out into the open as a worshiper of "LC the Wise." He speaks to me through a glowing box and enlightens me with witty observations about favored weapons. I know at least three other people in my cult, but everyone wears masks to hide his or her identity, lest the glowing one scribble on us.[/spoiler]

Erm. On topic...
I think that's a gross oversimplification, Bill. Fantasy means anything, not just high fantasy. There have been countless wonders of fantasy worldbuilding with little divine impact at all. I say that gritty fantasy is just as good as high.


In my eyes, deities should evolve naturally, as all elements should, from the themes and tones and ideas of the world. Tone is perhaps the first thing to consider when building religion, because a high fantasy world can accommodate more active deities and as you move toward realism, the more the divine needs to step down. Themes are also major in the consideration of the divine. Orden's mysteries, for example, needs a powerful divine presence that is hidden, so as to spark conflict. LC's Jade Stage is about human nature, and thus has deities which reflect the very human to explain the supernatural and to keep faith in the world. Lastly, a deity or religion needs to mesh well with the existing setting, and it is in this that a worldbuilder's skill really shines.

For example, should I get inspired to create a setting with the ethos of "Five hundred men and women find themselves plucked out of time to survive in a world of monsters with no hope of ever returning. Each person, from the samurai to the lawyer is able to understand each other, and as individuals die, the severed humans find that they posses the ability to wield psychic forces." I'll call the example setting "The Severed Land." (I know, it's not very original, but it's just an example)

Now, TSL is a setting full of despair, for the inhabitants have no way back or explanation for what is around them. It's based on earth, and yet clearly is not earth, so I'll say that deities shouldn't be visible, but should have impact. The themes of despair and hope run alongside ideas of unity, companionship and "us vs. them." Humans also need to explain what occurs, so deities provide an outlet for that, especially with those humans from earlier time periods.

So I'm thinking TSL has two gods, one which is "us" and one which is "them." The "us" god is the one who brought the severed humans to the land, and she has a purpose for the humans. Note that I picked a gender and stated a purpose. The deity might or might not be real, but she doesn't do anything obvious, and could easily be an invention. Some cite her as being the source of the psychic energy. The "them" god is more elemental, and representational of despair. The humans notice him because he walks the world, and they secretly pray to him, begging for mercy. I like the elemental thing, so I think he should be a storm, but not an ordinary one, as this is medium fantasy -- he's a firestorm.

Thus I have two major religions, and I also have atheism as an easy fallback for "modern" characters who put more emphasis on science than faith. Lot's of conflict and plenty of room for adjustment. I hope that helped.

LC you bring up many questions for which i am yet to discover an answer to, and i feel compelled to ask some of my own of the members of the CBG,
If you setting has deities, how do they communicate their wishes to mortals? How do you integrate your deities into folklore, myth, songs etc? do you write out each myth or song?


You last question has really stumped me, why do D&D deities even have a favored weapon? aren't they all powerful and can kill mortals with nothing more than a glance.

Quote from: ~Kalin~LC you bring up many questions for which i am yet to discover an answer to, and i feel compelled to ask some of my own of the members of the CBG,
If you setting has deities, how do they communicate their wishes to mortals? How do you integrate your deities into folklore, myth, songs etc? do you write out each myth or song?

You last question has really stumped me, why do D&D deities even have a favored weapon? aren't they all powerful and can kill mortals with nothing more than a glance.
[/quote]
Because of the influence of Norse/Greek/whatever myth. Think of Gungnir, Mjolnir, Zeus's thunderbolt, etc. Even Aries and Athena are often depicted with spears or swords.

Reconciling the need for weapons with the kind of powers deities sometimes have in D&D may be difficult. You might assume the weapons are mainly for using on other deities with similar levels of power.

As a self-designated expert on fictional religions, I thought I'd share my perspective on design.

Your original question inquired as to the source of ideas for gods, which I find everywhere.  Reading about real-world religions is great for inspiration.  However, the approach I use most often is an organic design.  If you examine the values of the culture, and then enshrine them in the form of powerful beings, then the faith is believable and dynamic.

Perspective is also important, and heavily tied to culture.  For example, gods of water.  An island surrounded by bountiful fish might see the power of the sea as a patron and provider.  A cape subject to storms would seek to placate the vengeful sea god.  Or an inland culture might honor the beauty of the streams and springs scattered across the land.

Basically, finding a single idea and growing a religion via cultural priorities and perspective is my strategy.

I should note that in my worlds, I consider gods to be largely irrelevant.  Religion and faith are how they influence the world, rather than smiting and visions.

Quote from: ~Kalin~If you setting has deities, how do they communicate their wishes to mortals? How do you integrate your deities into folklore, myth, songs etc? do you write out each myth or song?


You last question has really stumped me, why do D&D deities even have a favored weapon? aren't they all powerful and can kill mortals with nothing more than a glance.

I'll answer these questions for my setting (Phaedorás) by citing 3 different deities.

1) The Anima Khovas
Khovas is the lord of storm and wind spirits. In Phaedorás, spirits are basically fact, so it's assumed that Khovas exists, though he's (almost?) never contacted directly. Many cultures revere Khovas and have a number of myths and stories that involve him. People try to placate him by sacrifice, as it is believed that he creates hurricanes, thunderstorms and blizzards to punish those who offend him. In this sense, Khovas is an abstract personification of the weather which allows the people to feel as though they have some control over their environment.
I certainly do not describe *every* myth that involves Khovas, as trying to cover *all* of anything in a world is folly. Most of the legends of Khovas revolve around the old days, when spirits were said to walk the world. When the sky erupted into a massive rift between worlds, Khovas flew into the heavens and battled the invading demons with lighting, snow and spear.

2) The God Okk
Okk is the monotheistic god of the Vuu. I wanted to play on some interesting concepts with monotheism, because there's such a strong animist mindset in most of Phaedorás. Okk is a huge part of the Vuunan culture, and represents the ideal person. He is venerated by his priests, who also make up much of the "ruling class" for a tribe. Sacrifice is huge for Okk, though there isn't a clear imperative why, as Okk isn't even believed to have a clear impact on the world. Myths also serve to teach the will of Okk, though they aren't as common. In general, Okk is a pervasive part of Vuunan culture rather than an individual or force. It's likely that if the Vuu became more active in the world or moved beyond tribal life that Okk would dissolve, but at this point in time he serves as a uniting force between cultures in the darkest jungles and is thus highly important.
Okk is never depicted as holding a weapon, though it's generally understood that he, being the perfect being, could use any weapon equally. Okk also serves as an ideological focus; driving the Vuunan ideas of strength and rulership.

3) The Demon Queen Yaiguul
Unlike other religions, the cult of Yaiguul worships an actual being which walks the world. Yaiguul is the ruler of Phsaenyatal (the shadowlands), though she lets most of the actual governing of the kingdom fall upon mortal shoulders. Rarely encountered outside of her tower, she is praised by many as a deity made flesh. The people of Phsaenyatal don't misunderstand Yaiguul; they know she's a demon -- they just don't care. The things she has done for the people are amazing and countless and she's treated like a pharaoh because of it.
Stories exist about Yaiguul, rumors, they could be called. Few ever see her, and they say that she stands twice the height of a man, bathed in smoke and liquid shadow. She wields a great, single-bladed sword that was forged in the worlds beyond and is wrapped in a magic cloak that lets her walk between shadows instantly, effectively teleporting.

Each of these "deities" behave differently and have different roles in society. Some are the product of myth and story, others are pushed by the action of religious orders while others are simply the product of seeing something and calling it a god. I hope that helps.

Oh, and if you're wondering about LC's stuff, do check out his latest thread: http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?36327.last

Quote from: RaelifinErm. On topic...
I think that's a gross oversimplification, Bill. Fantasy means anything, not just high fantasy. There have been countless wonders of fantasy worldbuilding with little divine impact at all. I say that gritty fantasy is just as good as high.

Keep in mind, I'm only talking about D&D settings, worlds where godhood and divine magic work as they're assumed to work in the current D&D rules. If an RPG worldbuilder wants things to be grittier, he or she should use somewhat different rules. If you're just writing fantasy fiction, or if you're using a different roleplaying system, go nuts.

There seem to be two approaches to divinity in current fantasy worldbuilding: either gods are treated the way they're treated in their own myths and classic literature like the Iliad, or they're treated as a postmodern comment on religion itself. I've seen an awful lot of the latter approach lately, so I'm trying the former. I think that D&D in particular is a poor medium for making statements and making the players think seriously about real-world issues. (There are systems that do this well, however. My favorite one is Shock.) In my games, it's all about having fun.

Oh, okay.

Curse my setting-neutral bias. ;)

Raelfin I love your ideas on gods and culture, you always aim for truest versimilitude.

My main idea for deities is to think of how to unify cosmology. My main idea for the mythos of the world New Edom is in is that the gods are of different families descended from the same pair of creators. Amid this there are also those who worship beings that are not true gods or concepts that are purely philosophical. I think that sometimes you need false gods in a game, or gods that are really just monsters that are given sacrifices, or idols that have magical power but no sentience, etc. That makes for fun sometimes.

One could even argue that the typical pantheon is based on the roman pantheon, which in turn is greek in origin. In the greek pantheon, Zeus is son of Chronos, a titain and half-brother of Echidna. Echidna is mother of many monsters, including say, the hydra, which is thus the cousin of Zeus. As it is clear that the greek gods are not omnipotent, one might say that they are nothing but "monsters" that are given sacrifices.

I always look at this as a campaign building site, not a d20 or D&D world building site.  So it's important to properly label system specific comments as such.  I wouldn't be here if this was a d20 site.  

[blockquote=KALIN]LC you bring up many questions for which i am yet to discover an answer to, and i feel compelled to ask some of my own of the members of the CBG,
If you setting has deities, how do they communicate their wishes to mortals? How do you integrate your deities into folklore, myth, songs etc? do you write out each myth or song?[/blockquote]
Well, the first thing is the level of intervention you want to have.  Even before the deities and their portfolio/areas/aspects/domains, it will help you if you 'top-down' the thing and start with that.
I find that 'religion' and 'afterlife' are 2 belief concepts that go together.  Many low-intervention settings use afterlife beliefs to keep worshippers in line.  This fits under the 'why do people believe/where does fath come from?' department.
Once you have a handle on the level of interaction, THEN you can start worrying about how they interact.  The cosmic chessgame is a fun way to look at the deities, but what are the rules that the deities are really playing by?  Do the deities need worshippers?  Do they really care?  A fundamental determinate of the DP (demonpoint, a powerscale for the Celestials) scale for my own setting is based on the amount of worship they receive.  No mortals have any idea of this, or the inscrutable ways of the Celestials...but I like having a dynamic for the behaviors of the creatures at the top of the food chain.
I also am declaring personal alligiance to the anti-anthropopathy camp.  People can do as they will, but I belive that while mortals may ascribe human passions and logic to the Mightiest (which can show up in mortal fables, etc), there cannot/should not be a complete understanding 'on the ground'.
I have no idea if this makes my game 'fun'.  Perhaps the longevity of my game is based on a prolonged player-masochism... :dots:

I tend to agree with LordVreeg, largely because I think it emphasizes the differences too between those really in the know, those somewhat in the know, and the ignorant.

You also need to decide how important religion is to day to day life.