I love the new appeal Wizards are going with the cosmology. It sounds very flavorful, and retains many of the original elements ever-present in practically every edition of Dungeons and Dragons.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a&authentic=true
Secret worlds and invisible domains surround the world of the Dungeons & Dragons game. Godly dominions, elemental chaos, shadow kingdoms, and faerie realms are all part of the world. Most mortals know little of these things, but heroes are a different matter. Heroes often find that adventure calls them to distant and strange dimensions indeed.
The Feywild
The closest of these alternate worlds is the Feywild, or the realm of faerie. It is an 'echo' of the mortal world, a parallel dimension in which the natural features of the lands and seas are arranged in much the same configuration. If a mountain stands in a given place in the mortal world, a similar mountain stands in a corresponding place in the Feywild. However, the Feywild is not an exact reproduction. Built structures and terrains are not copied in the faerie realm, so a valley dotted with farm fields and towns in the mortal world would simply exist as untouched, unsettled woodland in the Feywild.
The Feywild's many vistas can catch your breath with beauty, but the Feywild is far from safe. Heroes visiting to Feywild might encounter:
A mossy forest glade where evil druids spill the blood of hapless travelers over the roots of the thirsting trees;
The tower of an eladrin enchanter;
A fomorian king's castle in the dim, splendid caverns of the faerie Underdark; or
A maze of thorns in which dryad briarwitches guard an evil relic.
The Shadowfell
Just as the Feywild is an echo of the natural world, so is the Shadowfell. However, the Shadowfell mimics the mortal world in a different manner. The Shadowfell is the land of the dead, where the spirits of the deceased linger for a time in a dark reflection of their previous lives before silently fading beyond all ken. Some undead creatures are born in the Shadowfell, and other undead are bound to it, but some living beings dwell in this benighted realm.
Like the Feywild, the Shadowfell also reflects the mortal world imperfectly. Towns, castles, roads, and other objects built by mortal kind exist in the Shadowfell about where they should be, but they are twisted, ruined caricatures. The shadowy echo of a thriving seaport in the mortal world might be a dilapidated, desolate port whose harbor is cluttered with the rotting hulks of shipwrecks and whose busy wharves are empty except for a few silent and furtive passersby. In the Shadowfell, heroes might venture into:
A necromancer's tower;
The sinister castle of a shadar-kai lord, surrounded by a forest of black thorns;
A ruined city swept by long-ago plague and madness; or
The mist-shrouded winter realm of Letherna, where the fearsome Raven Queen rules over a kingdom of ghosts.
The Elemental Chaos
All of the cosmos is not tied to the mortal world as closely as the Feywild or Shadowfell. The natural world was created from the infinite expanse of the Elemental Chaos (or Tempest, or Maelstrom), a place where all fundamental matter and energy seethes. Floating continents of earth, rivers of fire, ice-choked oceans, and vast cyclones of churning clouds and lightning collide in the elemental plane.
Powerful beings tame vast portions of the chaos and shape it to their own desires. Here the efreeti City of Brass stands amid a desert of burning sand illuminated by searing rivers of fire falling through the sky. In other places in the Elemental Chaos, mighty mortal wizards or would-be demigods have erected secret refuges or tamed the living elements to build their domains.
Elemental creatures of all kinds live and move through the Elemental Chaos: ice archons, magma hurlers, thunderbirds, and salamanders. The most dangerous inhabitants are the demons. In the nadir of this realm lies the foul Abyss, the font of evil and corruption from which demonkind springs. The Abyss is unthinkably vast'"thousands of miles in extent'"and in its maw swirl hundreds of demonic domains, elemental islands, or continents sculpted to suit the tastes of one demon lord or another. Within the Elemental Chaos, heroes might explore:
The crystalline tower of a long-dead archmage;
A grim fortress monastery of githzerai adepts;
The diseased Abyssal continent where Demogorgon rules amid ruined temples and bloodthirsty jungle beasts; or
A vast polar sea lit only by the cold glitter of icebergs and flickering auroras, in which the frozen stronghold of a frost giant warlock lies hidden.
The Astral Sea
One final extradimensional realm touches on the mortal world: the Astral Sea. If the Elemental Chaos is the manifestation of physicality, the Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind. The divine realms, the dominions of the gods, drift within Astral Sea's unlimited silver deeps. Some of these are realms of glory and splendor'"the golden peak of Mount Celestia, the verdant forests of Arvandor'¦. Others belong to dark powers, such as the Nine Hells where Asmodeus governs his infernal kingdom. A few astral dominions lie abandoned, the ruined heavens and hells of gods and powers that have fallen.
Only the mightiest of heroes dare venture into the dominions of the gods themselves. In the Astral Sea, heroes may find:
The iron city of Dis, where the devil Dispater rules over a domain of misery and punishment in the second of the Nine Hells;
An artifact guarded by race of cursed warriors whose castle of adamantine overlooks the war-torn plains of Acheron;
The black tower of Vecna, hidden in the depths of Pandemonium; or
A dragon-guarded githyanki fortress, drifting through the silver sea.
No one is knows how many astral dominions there are. Some dominions, such as the Nine Hells, are the size of worlds. Others are no larger than cities, rising like shining islets from the Astral Sea. Several dominions have been ruined or abandoned, usually because the gods who made them were destroyed or forgotten. What sorts of treasures'"or perils'"might slumber in such places, only learned sages could say.
And yet another Shadowfell infringement :(
I do like this a bit better than the classic cosmology.
my poor Shadowfell. :( I'm sure, 5 years from now, Ishmayl's Shadowfell will be looked upon as some sort of copyright infringement :(
Quote from: Moniker quoting Rich BakerThe Shadowfell
Just as the Feywild is an echo of the natural world, so is the Shadowfell. However, the Shadowfell mimics the mortal world in a different manner. The Shadowfell is the land of the dead, where the spirits of the deceased linger for a time in a dark reflection of their previous lives before silently fading beyond all ken.
The Astral SeaOne final extradimensional realm touches on the mortal world: the Astral Sea. If the Elemental Chaos is the manifestation of physicality, the Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind. The divine realms, the dominions of the gods, drift within Astral Sea's unlimited silver deeps.[/quote] Well, why not gank the rest of the Outer Planes? We've already deleted Limbo and the Abyss, so let's just say everything else is part of the Astral Plane, right?
Hey, and while we're at it, let's just say that the Shire and Mordor are both neighborhoods in the same small town. And Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron have all secretly been continents on the same world this whole time. Hell, every setting in the whole fantasy genre is practically the same, right? So let's just combine them into one super-setting called That One Place Other Than Here.
In the That One Place Other Than Here, you might encounter:
A fortress of a powerful demon lord being sublet to an archangel;
A giant ball of elemental air-fire-earth-water-wood;
The complete works of Tolkien, Lovecraft, and R.K. Rowling;
Or the kitchen sink.
Quote from: Ishmaylmy poor Shadowfell. :(
Oh, and Ishy, I feel your pain. Poor Original Shadowfell. :sosad:
I really like the new take on the Planes. I love the concept of The Elemental Chaos, I see it as a massive spinning plane that blends all the different 3E planes together, sorta like a black whole, just less twirly. :) At the center of this twirling plane lies the eye of the storm, where the Material Plane, Feywild and Shadowfell exist. Surrounding and intermixing with all of this is the Astral Sea.
I like this, it feels sci-fi-ish but still D&D. I applaud WotC for not dropping the ball on this one! :)
Quote from: Epic Meepo quoting Moniker quoting Rich BakerThe Astral Sea
One final extradimensional realm touches on the mortal world: the Astral Sea. If the Elemental Chaos is the manifestation of physicality, the Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind. The divine realms, the dominions of the gods, drift within Astral Sea's unlimited silver deeps.
Well, why not gank the rest of the Outer Planes? We've already deleted Limbo and the Abyss, so let's just say everything else is part of the Astral Plane, right?
Hey, and while we're at it, let's just say that the Shire and Mordor are both neighborhoods in the same small town. And Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron have all secretly been continents on the same world this whole time. Hell, every setting in the whole fantasy genre is practically the same, right? So let's just combine them into one super-setting called That One Place Other Than Here.[/quote]
First off, I'd like to point out the elemental plane reducing trend. They started out with, what? 4 elemental + 2 "energy" 4 paraelemental + 16 quasielemental. And, you know, defined border regions. In 3e, they cut it down to 4. In 4e, they cut them down to 1 and throw limbo and the abyss in there. 5e may not have planes. :)
I actually like this change, MOSTLY because i never thought the great wheel made any damned sense. "The planes are INFINITE, and are crowded with MILLIONS of demons!" isn't actually a logical statement :(.
Also, I've got the inner planar supplement from planescape--i thought it sucked not because Monte Cooke was a horrible writer, but because 2 pages, and just 2 pages had to be spent on all the splinter planes of ice and steam and whatnot. The divisions were categorical, and not about "interesting adventure locations." I think breaking down the classification horribly will allow them to write more interesting stories, really.
[blockquote=Epic Meepo]A fortress of a powerful demon lord being sublet to an archangel[/blockquote]
Now that would be just cool! Hmm, brain cells starting to fire! Ideas forming!
:evil laugh:
I like these new planes. I still hate planes mind you, but WotC is doing a good job here in my book.
Meeps, if I "sigged" stuff, the last few lines of your post would be mine. :)
And frankly, spitting in 30 years of D&D history is a very smart move in regard to cosmology. Planescape sucked (generally).
Quote from: brainfaceThey started out with, what? 4 elemental + 2 "energy" 4 paraelemental + 16 quasielemental. And, you know, defined border regions. In 3e, they cut it down to 4.
Player's Handbook[/i] they started off with only six Inner Planes: air, earth, fire, water; positive and negative energy. The para- and quasi-elemental planes weren't added to the cosmology until the first
Manual of the Planes several years down the road.
QuoteAlso, I've got the inner planar supplement from planescape--i thought it sucked not because Monte Cooke was a horrible writer, but because 2 pages, and just 2 pages had to be spent on all the splinter planes of ice and steam and whatnot. The divisions were categorical, and not about "interesting adventure locations."
add something new to make boring areas more interesting[/i].
Instead of dropping the Inner Planes and adding the Feywild, why not make the Feywild a region in the Positive Energy Plane. Instead of being stored in raw form, all of the life-energy there is stored in vibrant plant life. And make the Shadowfell a region of the Negative Energy Plane, one where the deities suppress the worst of the negative energy so that the souls of the dead don't get washed away while awaiting the afterlife.
That's just my hasty solution to the problem, so it isn't perfect, but I stand behind the philosophy I'm trying to demonstrate. When developing a world with a 30-year history, add detail to what you already have to incorporate your new themes and new storylines. Don't just chop off stuff that you don't like and take it back to the drawing board.
I don't want D&D cosmology to become the same as the DC Comics universe/multiverse/new-multiverse/hypertime, where writers go in and retcon the fundamental structure of reality every few years (a la
Crisis of the Infinite Earths) just because they object to the established assumptions of the franchise.
Gah! I loves planes! Well, at least they're stll infinite. Are they?
D&D planes (pre 4e anyway) kind of strike me as a fairly blatant Moorcock ripoff (or tribute). His conception of them, while interesting, would probably better be defined as parallel universes than planes in the cosmological sense, which implies a vertical hierarchy and degrees of physical reality.
Quote from: RaelifinAnd frankly, spitting in 30 years of D&D history is a very smart move in regard to cosmology. Planescape sucked (generally).
Fair enough. You don't have to like Planescape. But you can strip almost all of the elements of Planescape out of the setting and still have a workable cosmology based on the original:
On one side of the Material Plane is the Ethereal Plane, which connects to planes whose poles are elements and energies. On the other side of the Material Plane is the Astral Plane, which connects to planes whose poles are ethical and moral ideals. The Inner Planes are divided into six named clusters and the Outer Planes are divided into sixteen.
That and some version of the existing names of the planes are really the only things you have to preserve to stay faithful to the original D&D cosmology. I don't see any part of that setup that is so hard to deal with that it cannot be tweaked to incorporate all manners of new innovations and storylines.
Quote from: Phoenix KnightD&D planes (pre 4e anyway) kind of strike me as a fairly blatant Moorcock ripoff (or tribute). His conception of them, while interesting, would probably better be defined as parallel universes than planes in the cosmological sense, which implies a vertical hierarchy and degrees of physical reality.
According to Gary Gygax (I don't have a specific reference on hand but I've read it), the D&D planes were very specifically intended to be a Moorcock tribute. And there wasn't supposed to be any difference between a "plane" and a "parallel world." He just happened to organize the D&D planes in way that made certain ones are easier to travel between than others. Just as some parallel universes would be more similar to - and therefor closer to - others.
Incidentally, the original D&D concept of alignment - law, neutrality, and chaos only, as per the Basic D&D boxed set - was also intended as a Moorcock tribute. Moorcock often presents fiend-like creatures as agents of Chaos, not agents of Evil. As with the planes, I have always held that designers should have stuck with the initial alignment system instead of going all Good vs. Evil as Gygax did in later versions of the game.
EDIT: By the way, I don't object at all to the idea of creating new cosmologies. But that's what innovative new campaign settings are for, not updates to the core rules.
I've recently been introducing my ten year-old neighbour to roleplaying, and so, in time-honoured tradition, the first thing I showed him was D&D (I wasn't very well going to show him Vampire the Requiem!). Funny thing is, when he borrowed my DMG, he came back with his own D&D cosmology; and the funny thing is, it squirts all over this junk.
Seriously. Ten years old, not a particularly big fantasy buff, and he puts Wizards to shame.
That's not cool.
Honestly, I always loved the D&D cosmology. I was never a real fan of the races, the classes, the moral mechanic, but the Great Wheel was fascinating. It was a far cry from perfect, but its imperfection was part of its charm, one of the many elements provoking questions and interpretations of an already flavour-filled cosmos.
I loved the dichotomical comparison of Bytopia and Carceri; one a place of quiet liberty, the other a place of self-confinement and inward-focused hatreds. Or of Elysium (hope and goodwill) and Hades (lethargy and despair). To say nothing of the representation of Good and Evil, distributed across a number of planes with each plane reflecting a different element of that moral compass (and note how the Great Wheel does look a lot like a compass [DMG p. 153]). The list goes on, and though the comparisons are not always direct and comprehensive, again these issues merely stimulate the mind, allowing one to flesh out their own concept of the Wheel.
(Of course, I do not imagine the designers sat around for hours contemplating the conceptual oppositions of the various planes. They are there, though, and fairly obvious to those who care to look)
For someone like me, these elements are what make a setting evocative. Those things that hint at an unseen order, while not spelling out so explicitly as to erode its majesty. For all D&D's flaws (and by my reckoning they are legion), I've always loved the cosmology.
This, on the other hand, I don't like one bit. Not one bit. The Great Wheel had poetry, and this just looks like a charmless mish-mash, far more blatant in its generic Kitchen Sink mentality than the former cosmology ever was.
I just hope that as things develop, it begins to look less and less like they just trimmed the edges ( and the good edges, too), and more like they're working towards a new innovation.
Quote from: Epic MeepoI have no problem with the elimination of the splinter planes you list, since, as you say, they were just tacked on for categorical reasons. I'll also grant you that even without the splinter planes, the Inner Planes were boring adventure locations.
liked[/i] the splinter planes. :) The existence of an endless plane of dust, to me, is more interesting than a plane of a bunch of rock. I was more miffed about the way they dropped those planes in the 3e manual of planes than i would've been about them culling some layers off the abyss. I had to realize why they did it though, for reasons stated above. I think the idea behind those planes becomes useable again with the "Elemental Chaos" plane. Now, a writer CAN add a seemingly endless expanse of dust (or lightning, or ooze) in somewhere and write up descriptions for it when needed. I suppose like how the abyss was before: an author/DM could just make up a free number, wonky demonic ecosystem, and stat out a new layer of the abyss to run an adventure in.
Hold on a minute... Um... Where's the Ethereal Plane now?
Maybe it's the barolo talking, but I just don't see how it matters that much.
I agree with Brainface that the new 'Elemental Chaos' is like some of the planes of the Abyss used to be, a place to be creative. I personally see it as an excuse to be creative, since you need one in someone elses setting.
But I have always seen the rulebooks as jumping-off points. I see a dozen better cosmologies without even looking hard here. And bothering to keep very much of their cosmology and planes and etc in your own setting smacks of a crutch. Make the magic and cosmology of your world your own.
Epic Meepo hit a very good point about the comic book thing, where this smacks of people re-writing over the idea just to rewrite over it, to make their edition theirs...and thats what a lot of this is.
When I was younger and held onto the importance of comic books, I'd get upset when they screwed with the history. Then, when I got older, I got less upset and more annoyed, as it seemded to become just ridiculous. Then I stopped caring, as I found better stories elsewhere. I still feel some affection, but my tastes have expanded.
That's how this feels to me. I stopped caring what they do to their game a while ago, I'm more interested in mine and other people (like from here) that I feel are my peers, not people trying to re-brand the goddamn wheel to make themselves feel important.
Personal Opinion.
I think some people are overreacting to these changes. The Forgotten Realms and Eberron already had their own distinct cosmologies that were different from the Great Wheel. And numerous other games have their own cosmologies, let alone real-world mythology!
Personally, I think the more detailed example cosmologies to work with, the better - this gives us inspiration to come up with our own cosmologies.
Quote from: MeepsHold on a minute... Um... Where's the Ethereal Plane now?
I think Shadowfell probably covers it, as the plane where ghosts go. But until they release more information on it, we won't know for sure. I actually think merging the shadow plane and ethereal could be an interesting choice.
Quote from: Phoenix KnightI actually think merging the shadow plane and ethereal could be an interesting choice.
Yes... yes, I've always thought that would be an interesting choice as well (http://www.shadowfell.org/index.php?page=cosmology.html#planes).
...
These 'new' planes work for me.
Back when 3.0 came out, having run Die Vecna Die and had my players seriously mess things up in Sigil, resulting in the city's destruction, I came up with the Broken Wheel Cosmology which made some outer planes material planes, had all material planes coexisting in the same universe (but separated by time and space) and generally had the barriers between worlds breaking down as Primordial Penumbra, the darkness from beyond creation, wormed its way in.
So from my perspective things have just degenerated further; the elemental planes haves and broken down and homogenized while some of my "home grown" planes (the Wyld and the Shadow Marches) seem to have become had some official recognition (WotC must be reading my mind! ;))
The Wyld differs from this Feywild :huh: in that it's also nature untamed while things enter the Shadow Marches when they die &/ decay. So the more ruined or decayed something is in the material world the more whole it is in the marches.
The Primordial Penumbra is the darkness that existed before there was a cosmology. Its inhabitants are jealous and allergic to this newcomer Light and, according to my players have names like "Will Save", due to their Cthuluesque wrongness.
Oh first post here, BTW so hello.
My opinion is that the addition of the Elemental Chaos, and the new cosmology as a whole, was a fumble. However, I can understand why the redesign was implemented. A pattern of genericism has become apparent in WotC's new material. The "Points of Light" article, the (assumed) move away from Greyhawk as the Core world. It appears to me that the intention of Wizards is to make rules that can be used and adapted easily, regardless of what world is used for your campaign. I see this as a fine idea, and although I never intend to use the new cosmology, it looks like the rules for it will be easily adaptable to any homebrew world. I will admit that Planescape was artistic, where the new design is the equivalent of finger-painting, but at least the new cosmology is borderuing on irrelevant, therefore granting us world-builders more freedom.
[note]I think it's interesting that we're seeing such a large division between members on this subject, especially as the opinions here are fairly homogenous.[/note]
*a moment of silence in memory of the Unity of Rings*
I just noticed something else. It appears that the Blood War is over!
weaves garlands of hippie daisies and hands them out as he frolics and sings Good Morning Starshine
Eef! I don't like this much. Too vague, too bland. Hope theyactually have more detailwhen the books come out.
At this point, my half completed cosmology seems more full than this. lets hope this is just a few of the planes, not the whole cosmology
Ehh.
I was never too into the cosmology of D&D. It seemed a little too static to me. Although... Because I wasn't that interested in it, I never read any of the Planescape stuff, so I could have been missing something.
I'm guessing what they are trying to do is open it up a bit to creative re-interpretations. If they want to create a new setting with different deities, they can just go ahead and create new astral realms for them. Similarly they can create whole new races of elemental outsiders without having to fit them into the existing set of planes, demi-planes, quasi-planes, etc. Just create a new realm in the elemental chaos for them. And they can exist on an equal footing with established creatures.
I suspect that some of the vagueness and generality relates to this. They'll no doubt come out with one or more setting books that re-introduce some of the old concepts in new clothes. And probably some completely new things as well.
I really liked Planescape and the standard D&D cosmology, but it seems Wizards has been moving further and further away from the standard cosmology with every release after
Manual of the Planes. I'm not at all surprised that they would make this change, but I cannot say whether it will be for better or for worse until I see the finished product (as with all of 4E).
Quote from: snakefingI was never too into the cosmology of D&D. It seemed a little too static to me. Although... Because I wasn't that interested in it, I never read any of the Planescape stuff, so I could have been missing something.
You've definitely been missing a lot, if you haven't even given Planescape a look; all of the detail for the cosmology, which made it much more interesting, was there.
Quote from: Phoenix KnightQuote from: snakefingIf they want to create a new setting with different deities, they can just go ahead and create new astral realms for them. Similarly they can create whole new races of elemental outsiders without having to fit them into the existing set of planes, demi-planes, quasi-planes, etc. Just create a new realm in the elemental chaos for them. And they can exist on an equal footing with established creatures.
But you could do that anyway. Inner Planes are made of elements and energies, so if you need new elementals, create new Inner Planes. Outer Planes are for deities, so if you need new deities, add new Outer Planes. The whole Great Wheel concept merely reflected the fact that some places had more connections than others, and loses nothing if your new plane doesn't even fit on the Great Wheel.
If that's not vague enough for you, then all you have to do is fail to name the Inner Planes and the Outer Planes in the Core rules. Seriously, if the specific planes were causing problems, they could have just said there's Inner Planes past the Ethereal and there's Outer Planes past the Astral. That would be both vague and true to the original cosmology. Everyone who liked the original cosmology could say "well, it never changed" and everyone who hated could say "well, it's not mentioned anywhere in Fourth Edition."
Quote from: Epic MeepoThe whole Great Wheel concept merely reflected the fact that some places had more connections than others, and loses nothing if your new plane doesn't even fit on the Great Wheel.
I doubt they were willing to introduce new planes in the Great Wheel though. I think the shadow plane is relatively new, but it wasn't a "belief" plane. I guess the quasielementals were introduced, but they were all at rigid locations in the defined order still. I'm not sure an additional outerplane that didn't "belong" somewhere would be well-recieved, either.
And yeah, they COULD make new layers or realms or whatever in existing planes, but i don't think that really works well. If the elemental plane of wood is a realm in the plane of earth, then it's less important than the plane of earth itself due to classification. (If that makes any sense?)
(Disclaimer: My knowledge of D&D before 2ed is lacking or nonexistant.)