The Campaign Builder's Guild

Because I'd like to discuss this subject. I am particularly interested in hearing from people who have written their own magic systems, but if you have interesting insight on prepackaged systems (say, for example, the standard D&D setup), I'd like to hear about your ideas, as well.

(I also want to say at the outset that I'm not particularly interested in mechanics themselves, directly. My interest in mechanics involves how they affect the tone and feel of magic in a world-- mechanics can and do speak to issues such as what kinds of effects magic-users can produce, how often and how intensely they can produce them, and what sorts of limiting factors mitigate their power. Those are all things that I'm interested in, but I don't need to get much more nit-picky than that.)

Anyway, I'm brainstorming about some different schools and traditions of magic in my setting, and I got to wondering about what you all find appealing about various approaches to magic, and what you think falls flat.

Do you use a complicated or simple approach? Do you prefer a system like D&D's, where a spellcaster has the potential to learn thousands of differently nuanced spells, or a system where a magic user has a broad area of focus (such as "fire" or "mind reading") and flexibility to work within that narrow subject? If the former, how do you keep things manageable, and how do you give magic a theme or tone (if you do so at all?) If the latter, how do you give magic variety, and how do you set limits for what spellcasters can and can not do (if you do so at all?)

I guess the big problem for me (there are also several smaller ones) is that talking about magic is talking about selective bending of the laws of reality-- it wouldn't be magic if the methods and effects were possible for Joe Mundane. So in writing about magic for people to use, I have to try to balance being too stingy with the power, and being too free and undefined with it (which leads to chaos for two reasons: players have no idea what their actual magical capabilities are, and things can get quickly out of hand and rather silly (unless gratuitous use of magic is part of the tone you're shooting for anyway.))

I think part of the problem with the D&D system of magic is that it's too micromanaged by the writers. The urge to exhaustively catalogue every tiny detail of the system has led to massive, complicated lists of effects, which grow larger with each new book published. Players of highly-advanced spellcasters have to comprehend tens of thousands of words of text, just to understand what their spells can do (this is not counting the basic chapter overviews, just spell effects!) That is an unnecessarily large amount of detail, and it's a big reason why few people ever bother to examine and understand the system well enough to use it fluently.

There is also a great deal of thematic redundancy in the lists, as a result of this same micromanaging. For example, just look at how many ways there are to get an effect like "hurt things with fire." (I can think of about ten, just off the top of my head, and I haven't cracked the PHB in over a year.) I think I'd prefer to have a single, more flexible ability called "hurt things with fire", and the ability to employ it creatively to produce a variety of different effects, in a variety of different magnitudes as my character advances.

I also have a problem with the directionless nature of D&D magic. Such care is taken to ensure that spellcasters have a huge variety of abilities (from sending messages in magical "invisible ink" to climbing into holes in reality using rope to conjuring invisible armor to altering reality with a wish) that nobody ever gets a clear, thematic sense of what a magic user can actually accomplish (unless that answer is "all sorts of things.") I am pretty sure that I prefer an arrangement where any individual spellcaster's capabilities, while still flexible, can be summed up in one fairly brief sentence. For example, "spellcasters of Tradition XYZ can commune with spirits of the dead, bless or curse other people, and survive indefinitely without breathing air or drinking water." This still provides a lot of power and flexibility, but gives me a much clearer picture about what Tradition XYZ is all about than if I were to say, "they can do pretty much anything in this giant book of disparate effects."

I guess I'm rambling by now. But I'm grappling with a bunch of large-scale dilemmas, and I want to hear your ideas. If there's interest, I can talk a bit about my particular project and the specific choices I'm confronting here, but I'd really like to hear about what pushes all your buttons in a general sense.

Personally, my views have changed over time. I used to think that DnD magic, slightly altered, was a good idea. Then I split the spells into four categories and restricted them slightly for Goromor, because I thought that would bring some theme to the world. I think the Mahi, though, was probably my favourite DnD-linked magic system. It was mainly mental magic, as well as some ability to 'bend' the world and the laws of physics, and each caster's ability was defined quite restrictively.

After the Mahi I went nearly completely freestyle and adapted my Aelwyd magic system, which basically works off the concept of a tiny, restricted amount of abilities which are each extremely diverse in their use. This has been adapted and used across my campaign settings, and is now in the form of Free Magic in Wonders. I like this kind of magic system the best - you choose your abilities as you become more powerful, and each ability grants you the power to do almost anything you can think of with that theme.

I agree, the D&D magic system has its issues. Its one of the few things I'm looking forward to seeing in fourth edition.

As it stands, you could strip the entire system of all flavor, eliminate certain effects, and go from there. If you do this, I could see a combining of several spells into one 'power,' and then choosing a theme (say 'plants,' 'fire,' or 'ice') so that your generic 'hurt lots of things in a huge radius' can be either spikes coming up from the ground, a fireball, or perhaps just a whole bunch of icicles.

It might even work.

But I also think that the outer wrapping of fluff is just as important. If you do it cleverly enough, you need not even change the system. For example, my arcanists in Dilandri use the standard D&D system with a power point alteration. But when you add in the crystals as a focus, restrict two or three of the schools, and give everything they cast a theme, the system does not look like D&D at all.

I have several magic systems in mind.

One is just mind fighting; a system that uses the same identical mechanics used for weapons but with a separate but equal set of stats: 8 stat system  (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?38704)
It has similarities to the d20 3.5 warlock in that the magicians can cast their spells an infinite number of times.

Another magic system I've been observing in development is part of a project called "Spell Lists for Everyone", where every character gains SoDs and save boxes that act as a buffer so that PCs don't get womped by one ubber Wail of the Banshee.

The third is a very weird mechanic I developed for my  Battles of the Star Angels and Space Devils (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?39727)
You can find the mechanics in this thread (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=6&thread=161)
This one is supposed to mimic AT Fields.

May your septic system develop a 2-way gate to the Eighth House, LC.  And may the Unbound Entropics there eventually get sick of the waste and crawl up the pipe to get you one late night.

How dare you ask such a great, must-answer question?  AArg.  There is no time breathe right now, but I am going to have to answer this, or I'll never be able to live with myself.  "Can we talk about magic", indeed!
(I'll edit the answer into this post as today goes on)
Link to Celtrician spell rule page (http://celtricia.pbwiki.com/Spell+Rules?full_access=ykSciyNGwN&l=S)


I don't think you were rambling at all.  Magic is one of the three cornerstones on which a RPG system is created; covering a lot of ground is normal.  There is a lot to it.
One of the first things I looked at when I created my systems was what kind of a cosmology/system/setting was I trying to support.  I think a lot of your problems are similar ones, in that the Vancian, 'fire-and-forget', interdisciplinary approach that is used for D&D setting might not mesh well with your ideas.

[blockquote=LC]Do you use a complicated or simple approach? Do you prefer a system like D&D's, where a spellcaster has the potential to learn thousands of differently nuanced spells, or a system where a magic user has a broad area of focus (such as "fire" or "mind reading") and flexibility to work within that narrow subject? If the former, how do you keep things manageable, and how do you give magic a theme or tone (if you do so at all?) If the latter, how do you give magic variety, and how do you set limits for what spellcasters can and can not do (if you do so at all?)[/blockquote]
Complicated, honestly.  I'd love to say it is not, but to get the effects I wanted, and to reinforce teh player experiences and behaviors, I needed to step up the bookkeeping.  I have a system where a caster uses some personal energy to trigger a spell, and then pulls power from different sources to power it.  the ability to draw and channell any of the 15 power sources (including the personal power) is a skill.  You mentioned Fire, The House of Fire is a source of energy for spells, and fire spells cost spell points from spirit (the personal store) and from the House of Fire.  
I guess that answers the areas of focus, as well as the tone.  I didn't want a PC to break a level,  then be able to cast a spell that had nothing in common with the spells that caster had been casting.
One major reason we did this is that we wanted the different specializations to be more than just a list of spells that could be cast.  A Church of Chaos (Orcus) will normally have decent ability in Spirit, Very Good Chaos, decent Restoratove, and decent death magic, and poor at most other types of spell ability.  The Steel Libram Sages of Igbar might have decent Spirit, Very Good Mentalist skill, Above average Artificer.  We want to have real Pyromancers, and real Artificers, and mentalists...Not just different spell lists. -(from Celtricia Wiki)

[blockquote=LC]
I guess the big problem for me (there are also several smaller ones) is that talking about magic is talking about selective bending of the laws of reality-- it wouldn't be magic if the methods and effects were possible for Joe Mundane. So in writing about magic for people to use, I have to try to balance being too stingy with the power, and being too free and undefined with it (which leads to chaos for two reasons: players have no idea what their actual magical capabilities are, and things can get quickly out of hand and rather silly (unless gratuitous use of magic is part of the tone you're shooting for anyway.))[/blockquote]
This sounds a lot like the 'low-magic vs high-magic' question.  One of the primary issues I see come up in threads is the magic level question. How prevelant is magic in the mileau? Is it a 'high-magic' world, or a 'low magic' world?  

But there is more to it than that. Many games have similar ratios of high, mid, and lower level magic. Another question is what is the frequnecy distribution of ability?  How common is magic?  How common is high magic, versus how common is more pedestrian magic?  I wanted a system that allowed for magic to be used in place of technology, but that still made powerful magic very, very inaccessible.

When I created the spell point system for Celtricia, I set it up to be as flexible as possible, so that casters can blow all their points in one spell, or cast lots of little spells, or use rituals to cast tougher spells. I also do not differentiate between divine spells and others, as they actually all come from the same sources of power.

 
But I also set things up so that I could have a magic rich world, but where even middle level magic is rare, and high level magic is a thing of legend. Igbar, as an example is a small walled city of thirty thousand souls. Bards, mages, sages, priests, alchemsits and other people who can manipulate the void-bound sources of spell power abound. However, There are no priests capable of casting a Full Ressurection. Raise Dead is possible at 5 of the churches.

Higher level spells obviously cost more spell point. But they also have unfavorable spell successes, and pull from more spell sources. All spells need spirit points, which is the trigger, the part of the spell that comes fropm the caster. Beginner spells and cantrip pull from Spirit and one or 2 other spell point sources. Tougher spells will pull from 3, 4, or even 5 sources, so a caster must be 'fluent' in many disciplines to cast any medium or higher power spells.

More coming

I'm not sure how to answer your questions effectively with the mess my setting/magic system is currently in LC, but I will describe what I have intended and my main ideas for how it will work.

For starters, I've recently jumped from D&D into the WoD system for fantasy, and am working on creating a simple magic system for it that uses very generic "powers" with a lot of potential as Stargate mentioned. I'm not sure yet how I want to have magic be manifested, but am looking at both the Wizard's method, and the Sorcerer's method (which would include psionics and similar powers as well, since their most important differences to me always seemed to be the flavor). I'd like to keep both but depending on how things develop, I may end up using only one or the other, or at least use one in a very limited form. For example, the representation of traditional D&D wizardry may amount to the use of books to actively read and cast spells which are too powerful or not otherwise obtainable through natural magic, or sorcery may be a kind of "Spellfire" sort of thing that pops up once every blue moon.

The nature of magic is also taking a new, possibly more "realistic" direction in that I'm tossing most flashy spells. I'll still have things like raising the dead, sucking life-force from victims, enchanting your fists with lightning, magical flight, invisibility, etc., but things like fireballs, lightning bolts, and the like are being changed drastically. You'll often see a wizard with a torch, or happen to see them more often during storms, because the use of elemental damage in my system/setting relies on having an active source to manipulate. You can draw and expand bolts of fire from burning flames, and you can affect storm clouds to cause lightning to strike just where you want it to. Elemental damage itself is also being changed, as I'm looking to entirely remove any distinction between the damages: fire and lightning damage just burn (even though lightning is probably more severe); cold "damage" just causes hypothermia and all of the other effects like frostbite; acid damage is a relentless burn.

Other than what I've mentioned, most magic you can think of from D&D and other sources is present in one form or another. Necromancers, summoners, transmuters, abjurers, and the like are all over the place. The organizations and individuals who wield magic are all different, but they tend to be fairly focused in what they can do (there's little of that "Hey Jim, what'd you spend your gold on?" "OMG MORE SPELLS WHEE" mentality you get from the regular wizard). I'm sure there are other things to tell, but I just went blank.

I use magic in a funny sort of way. Essentially it reflects a kind of war for control of reality. I've also used it to make racial differences more sharp. (this is stuff I haven't yet entirely written about for my game setting btw)

As examples I do use domains for priestly spells. I have a limited number of wizards in the world--they are limited to being solitary practitioners or part of a particular order to reflect a sense of odd ecclecticism. Elves tend to a form of elementalism, while Dwarves are artificers and Gnomes are mentalists--a modification on the old 1st Ed. D&D illusion focus. It is possible to gain magical ability by means of demonic pacts. Finally there is psionics which I refer to as a form of magic in game called 'witchery'.

Disorganized thread response powers, activate!

Quote from: LVThis sounds a lot like the 'low-magic vs high-magic' question. One of the primary issues I see come up in threads is the magic level question. How prevelant is magic in the mileau? Is it a 'high-magic' world, or a 'low magic' world?

One is just mind fighting; a system that uses the same identical mechanics used for weapons but with a separate but equal set of stats: 8 stat system
It has similarities to the d20 3.5 warlock in that the magicians can cast their spells an infinite number of times.[/quote]After the Mahi I went nearly completely freestyle and adapted my Aelwyd magic system, which basically works off the concept of a tiny, restricted amount of abilities which are each extremely diverse in their use. This has been adapted and used across my campaign settings, and is now in the form of Free Magic in Wonders. I like this kind of magic system the best - you choose your abilities as you become more powerful, and each ability grants you the power to do almost anything you can think of with that theme.[/quote]The nature of magic is also taking a new, possibly more "realistic" direction in that I'm tossing most flashy spells. I'll still have things like raising the dead, sucking life-force from victims, enchanting your fists with lightning, magical flight, invisibility, etc., but things like fireballs, lightning bolts, and the like are being changed drastically. You'll often see a wizard with a torch, or happen to see them more often during storms, because the use of elemental damage in my system/setting relies on having an active source to manipulate.[/quote]May your septic system develop a 2-way gate to the Eighth House, LC. And may the Unbound Entropics there eventually get sick of the waste and crawl up the pipe to get you one late night.[/quote]Thanks, I think!

Longer letter later. I want to reply to everybody I've missed, and get some more detailed thoughts posted about some of your ideas. This discussion is already proving to be incredibly useful to me, so I thank you all for fueling my fires.

I'm putting something together so that magic is accessible to just about anyone, but is only practical to a few.

It's built into that "stunting" idea I had a while back.

To repeat my old mantra, I'm a large fan of the way Mutants and Masterminds handles magic (mechanically).

Essentially, you have points you spend on powers (these points also are spent for ability scores, skill points, physical abilities (such as regeneration) etc, so you aren't just using the points for magic. With these points and the list of powers, you can add modifiers, link them, etc to create pretty much anything you can dream up. When you buy the magic power, you choose a base power - the default setting your magic takes (for combat oriented games, this is usually a damage effect). Then, for an additional point each, you add new powers to that list. What you can buy really is only limited by your descriptors, so an elemental mage would describe his powers using elements (I send forth a ball of fire that saps away strength from heat, (a damage power that works in an area at range), create a wall of ice, (a power that creates objects with the ice descriptor), etc) while a necromancer could have the exact same powers (ranged area damage and create object) but different descriptors (I create a sphere of necromantic energies that opens wounds and saps life force or I summon a wall of the souls of the damned.)

After you buy those powers, that is what you can do, until you gain more points (either from the DM giving you points or levelling up, if that option is being used) However, if you need to make something up on the fly, you can exert more effort, becoming fatigued the next round, to stunt a power.

The advantages to this system are that it is greatly streamlined - instead of having 10,000,000,000 spells to look over, you only have a few dozen powers that you work with to create the desired effect - and that, because a lot of the spell is in the description, the GM can set mandatory descriptors that all spells have. Also, this eliminates the need for minute details to explain how each spell and effect interact - if a damage effect has a fire descriptor and is doing damage to an object with the ice descriptor, then it would deal more damage (Probably a moderate more amount of damage, so about one and a half times more). Common sense dominates most of these abilities. Plus, they lack the arbitrary and irritating restrictions of vancian magic.

That being said, the system is not perfect. Especially if you want non-flashy or subtle, you're not going to want M&M in all cases. Also, it requires a good GM-Player relationship, so the GM does not override good player thinking and the player doesn't constantly attempt things that don't make sense with his descriptors (A fire based mage attempting to summon demons after the player suddenly "realizes" his fire is infernal in nature, when it was established at creation it was elemental, for a less extreme example - for a more extreme, a fire mage trying to stunt a mind reading effect.) However, with that relationship, it can fit almost any flavor you want.

On a more general note...

Magic, to me, seems to fall under three choices for an overall. It can:

A) Not have any relation to physics, instead dealing with spirits, mind reading, ESP, etc - stuff that doesn't fall under what physics deals with.
B) Work with physics as its own system, where existing energies are manipulated to preform effects (Drawing powers from ley lines and nodes is the most typical example of this, as is (to an extent) magic where energy is drawn from the user then gradually replenished, implying that the amount of magical energy is a constant, like any other energy form.)
C) Grab physics by the throat, choke it to death, and then dance around its corpse. (Where no existing energy is required - the users just says words, and BAM!, stuff happens. Divine magic also falls under this.)

All three options have their merits, and they are not mutually exclusive to a setting (You could have witches dealing with A, wizards dealing with B, and mages that can do C). Vancian magic is firmly a C system, while Psionics falls under B. Type A magic can be very interesting, but harder to work with in a RPG setting and less fun to certain types of players - and tends to always force type A users in a behind the scene roll.

Granted, I'm almost positive I'm leaving things out, but I wanted to give you my initial thoughts. If you want a less micromanaged magic system, you don't necessarily need point based, just one that relies on descriptors to govern interactions. Imagine a system where you could work damage dealing spells like this.

QuoteDamage
Level 1: Deals 1d6 + Int/Wis/Cha bonus damage.
Level 2: Deals 1d6 + Int/Wis/Cha bonus damage.
Level 3: Deals 2d6 + Int/Wis/Cha bonus damage.
Level 4: Deals 2d6 + Int/Wis/Cha bonus damage.
Level 5: Deals 3d6 + Int/Wis/Cha bonus damage.
etc

Reduce by one level:
Either deal damage in a 5ft/level area around you, or a 10ft/level line or cone in front of you or add a bonus to spell's damage equal to the ability modifier of your choice.

Reduce by two levels:
Deal damage in a 5ft/rank area anywhere within 100ft/rank of yourself or in a 10 ft/level line or cone originating at any point within 100ft/rank of yourself or deal 1/2 damage again the next round.

Reduce by three levels:
Deal damage to any target you can accurately see without making an attack roll, or simultaneously cast another spell on the same target, also three levels lower.

Increase by 1 level: [Cannot increase above character's level]
Target gets fort/ref/will save for half damage. (If already has been reduced to an area, this modifer cannot allow a ref save)

Increase by 1 level: [Can increase above character's level]
Caster must touch target as opposed to casting at range.

Increase by 2 levels: [Cannot increase above character's level]
Caster must make a Fort save against spell's level after modifiers are applied. If fail, they are stunned for one round

Increase by 1 level: [Can increase above charater's level]
Caster suffers from Con drain equal to the spell's level after modifiers are applied.

spell, counter [discriptor] spell, strenghten [ability] spell, heal spell, animate dead/items/pictures/whatever spell, etc) and they lower the level at which they cast it to create other effects, while able to raise the level at which they cast it by adding negative modifiers - so a character could create a fire cone at normal rank damage, but the target gets both a fort and reflex save. Of course, the various modifiers are only samples - the actual system would have a good number (say, one or two dozen), some/many of which would be universally applied, while each one would also have its own, specific modifiers (maybe one or two, three for more complex effects). Modifiers would be purchased attached to the spell, so a player could, at level 5, buy a level 3 damage in a 10ft radius area that they could cast anywhere within 500 ft of themselves - and, as they leveled up, all spells they had would level up to, so at level 20 that spell would be level 17.

That'd be it. No 10000 spells, and if a player wants to improvise a modifier for a level reduction like any other modifier and the GM approves of it (with the GM deciding what the level reduction is) then the player can cast it. You could cover almost all spell usage that way, simply linking abilities and weakening them with modifiers - 100 times less restrictive, IMO. Sure, it'd need some playtesting to balance with fighters/theives/etc, but their is no reason that fighters/theives/etc can't have their own abilities that have similar mechanics. If you want a class to be a 2/3 or 1/2 or 1/4 caster, then you just reduce the rate at which they gain new spell levels accordingly.

That's off the top of my head. As a final word (and shout out to Green Ronin), people who have played it have said True20 system's magic works in a similar manner. My copy hasn't arrived yet, so I'll fill you in once I get it, but the point is this: to create magic that allows for a wide variety of options without creating a overwhelmign variety of options, allow the players to mix and match. To narrow it, limit by descriptors - a player of a tradition that has the ability to speak with the dead, curse and bless, and survive without air or water must make sure their spells are based off of one of those abilities. (No throwing fire balls, but it's fine curse people in an area with weakness, and a fire tradition person couldn't gain insight into a ruler's methods by speaking to his murdered uncle, which XYZ could do - but, by the same token, XYZ would have no summoning abilities, while fire person could maybe summon fire elementals.)

I'm rambling now, so I'll stop. :P    

EDIT: Added more info to my improvised magic system...I think I'm going to actually write that whole thing out soon.

QuoteI want to hear more about this, really. What sorts of themes are there, and what can you do with them? What things have players done with magic that have surprised or impressed you? Does this sort of flexibility lead magic-using characters to overshadow non-spellcasters?

It works on spell points, and is slightly like psionics, but more versatile. In the Wonders version, you learn 'components', which can be used alone or in a group in one spell or weaving. Alone, these components cost about two spell points, and they fit into three categories (which cannot be used together) - Attack, Object and Improvement (in simple terms). A 'fire' attack component is a 1d4 fire touch attack. However, using extra spell points, you can turn this into a ranged attack, a cone, or even a fireball (although that last would be very weak without some other augmentations). You can increase the dice amount and dice size, although both are quite costly, and there are special augmentations for each Component. Fire, for example, can be made 'Real' (and do Fire Damage rather than Heat Damage, which is another thing altogether) and be used to light candles, can be applied to a weapon as a coating and so on.

Because of the small amount of Channeling (i.e. Spell) points that a mage will get in a day, they're actually not all that scary to a non-mage. They rarely enter into battles in Wonders, flavour-wise, simply because they have little potential to affect anything unless they're EXTREMELY powerful. Of course, if they work together tactically...

For my world, I decided that I wanted a very distinct magic feel to my setting, rather than a magitech system. To figure this out, I started with the question:
 * What is magic?

My answer (for non-magitech):
 1. The supernatural.
 2. That which cannot be explained.

So for Phaedoras (my world) I wanted to be sure that any magical effects were not the product of laws, sciences, rules or whims. My solution: make characters unable to use magic directly.

For the entire world there are four sources of magic:
 * World Magic
 * Elder Magic
 * Spirit Magic
 * Shadow Magic

World magic encompasses everything that is simply magical with no reason. There are springs that can heal wounds, fiery pits to subterranean hells, and people that can see the future. World magic is very rare, typically subtle, and completely unpredictable.

Elder magic is the term used to describe the effects of an artifact from eons past. These artifacts always have a fixed ability, and are thus "magic items." They cannot be made, however, and are almost never as boring as a +1 sword.

Spirit Magic is interesting. I wanted to have "spellcasters" in my world, but I wanted to keep magic out of their hands. Enter spirits--beings capable of doing the supernatural, yet inherently non-real; bound to a plane that is ethereal. Shamans are able to see and interact with spirits (usually by taking hallucinogenic substances) and make pacts with them. In the future, they can call upon the spirits for favors, and ask them to change reality. This sort of magic is very subtle, and is usually along the lines of changing the wind, boosting natural healing or giving someone a luck blessing. Powerful spirits ignore weak shamans, and so a shaman must prove him or herself in order to gain the acceptance of great fey.

Witchdoctors are like shamans, but instead of bargaining with spirits, witchdoctors trap spirits within items (called totems) and learn to torture them into using their magic. This form of magic is much more visible (earthquakes, windstorms, curses, conjured wards) though it eats away at the witchdoctor's health to use, often leading to dementia or death.

Lastly, shadow magic is the force that seeps into the world from the shadowy nether. This can warp creatures into demons, cause sickness, or even blight the landscape into a twisted blight. The only way characters can use this magic is by letting it into their bodies, warping themselves temporarily. This is obviously dangerous, and true skill with shadow magic is not learning to channel more, but learning to channel less. An example of shadow magic might be turning one arm into a giant claw, or getting a surge of energy that removes fatigue.

Phadoras is a world where I want mysterious, subtle magic, where even the spellcasters don't know what they can do.

To finish, I'll leave you with this list of limitations (any of which can be bypassed by world magic):
 * Magic cannot bring the dead back to life
 * Only shadow magic can heal a wound directly.
 * Magic cannot conjure things. (Though witchdoctors can create magical shields or battering rams made from nothing)
 * Magic cannot imbue a thing with life--though an unliving thing can become a vessel for a living thing.
 * Magic cannot force a person to do something against their will (elder magic is an exception) (magic can warp perception)
 * Fire and lightning must have a source. Shadowchanellers can warp themselves to breathe fire, artifacts can spawn flame and witchdoctors can call lightning from the sky, but nothing can summon an orb of fire.

Well, I don't have a fully worked-out magic system for my world (yet) but I have some thoughts on what I'd like to accomplish.

When you look at magic in myths and literature, you mostly see a couple of archetypes. One is the mystic - drawing on internal power, divine gifts, or some other source, they are able to bend reality to their will. The other is the scholar - through long study they come to understand deep truths about reality that give them the ability to manipulate it in ways that mundanes, with their limited knowledge, cannot.

In my world, the picture is a hybrid. The metaphysics is explicitly dualistic, with the physical world and mental/spiritual world coexisting. Those with strong will (strong mental/spiritual aspect) have the ability to manipulate the physical world through force of will alone - but they also need deep study to understand the nature of reality so they can manipulate it effectively. Different cultures or different schools would concentrate on particular aspects of the world. An individual spell caster can focus on one or two aspects and learn more powerful and subtle techniques, or cast their net widely but be limited to the simpler and weaker abilities.

The effects I'm looking for are something like this:

1) Specialization is rewarded but not so severely that you can't usefully branch out a little.

2) Spell casters know what they are doing. It is based on your spiritual strength (Mana Level) and knowledge (represented by skills or feats). Spell casting temporarily weakens your spirit in much the same way that heavy exercise weakens your body.

3) Semi-casters and even non-casters can pick up casting skills the same way that casters do, but it won't amount to much without the class advantages that casters have.

I'm kind of leaning toward using feat chains to represent this for a couple of reasons. But mainly, just as other feats give characters special abilities compared to those who don't have the feats, spell feats give a caster the ability to "selectively bend reality" in ways that aren't available to other characters.

[blockquote=LC][blockquote=LV]Complicated, honestly. I'd love to say it is not, but to get the effects I wanted, and to reinforce teh player experiences and behaviors, I needed to step up the bookkeeping. I have a system where a caster uses some personal energy to trigger a spell, and then pulls power from different sources to power it. the ability to draw and channell any of the 15 power sources (including the personal power) is a skill. You mentioned Fire, The House of Fire is a source of energy for spells, and fire spells cost spell points from spirit (the personal store) and from the House of Fire.
I guess that answers the areas of focus, as well as the tone. I didn't want a PC to break a level, then be able to cast a spell that had nothing in common with the spells that caster had been casting.
One major reason we did this is that we wanted the different specializations to be more than just a list of spells that could be cast. A Church of Chaos (Orcus) will normally have decent ability in Spirit, Very Good Chaos, decent Restoratove, and decent death magic, and poor at most other types of spell ability. The Steel Libram Sages of Igbar might have decent Spirit, Very Good Mentalist skill, Above average Artificer. We want to have real Pyromancers, and real Artificers, and mentalists...Not just different spell lists. -(from Celtricia Wiki)
Simplicity is not necessarily a virtue, in and of itself. Nor is complexity. [/blockquote]

I am trying not to concern myself with specific mechanics too much at this early stage (and they never seem to translate from one project to the next as easily as ideas do, anyway), but I am quite interested in the "flavor" of your different power sources, the different mortal traditions and organizations of magic users that draw upon them, and the distinctions that grow forth from that. [/blockquote]

Hmm.  Oe of the first things I mentioned was that I developerd the mechanics to fit my setting, so I think I have to agree with your idea-gathering methodology.

Here is the list of power sources that the caster's can use.
Animist SP  --Powered by the Animal Oversoul
Artificer SP   -Powered by reaching out to the echoes of the Creator's Song in the Void
House of Air SP-Powered by the the Endless Sky on the Second Station (Since the House of Air was destroyed).
House of Chaos SP-Powered by the Well of Chaos on the Eighth House, which forces the void apart.
House of Death SP-Powered by the Polar Well of Death on the House of Death, Zevashopal.
House of Earth SP-Powered by the Endless Solidity of the House of Earth.
House of Fire SP-Powered by the Well of Fire on the Third Station (as the House of Fire is no more).
House of Life SP-Powered by the Polar Well of Life, on the House of Life.
House of Order SP-Powered by the Well of Order, which binds the Void together, on the Ninth House.
House of Water SP-Powered by the Endless Sea on the House of Water.
Mentalist SP-Powered by the Humanoid Oversoul
Necromantic SP-Powered by the conduit from the House of Death to all the Soul's End Journeys
Restorative SP-Powered by the Well of Life, on the House of Life.
Shade Sp -Powered by the void itself.  (unknown for millenia, not used)
Spirit SP--The personal power of the caster's trained mind.

Again, the manipulation of any one of these is a separate skill.  House of Water ability is it's own skill, and as a caster gains levels in that skill they can manipulate more power from the House of Water, have better spell success % with those spells, and they get points back faster after casting them.
Higher level spells don't just cost more points, they generally have more types of spell powers sources needed.  Think of the soources as ingredients, so that creating a flaming sword spell will cost spirit (to activate the spell), Fire, and Artificer.
But each of these sources is also part of the cosmology, so that caster's using chaos magic pull the power for that spell right out of the Eigth House, which is also where the entropics dwell.
Spell system creation is a chance to make the cosmology of your world, the very physics of it, more real to the players.  As an example, Demons (Unbound Entropics) have huge Chaos resevoirs because their home plane is the Eigth House.  They also have huge spell resistance of chaos magic, but are more susceptable to the Power of Order.    
Of course, this scrapping of spell systems has meant redoing my own spellbook.
Spellbook (http://celtricia.pbwiki.com/Spell+List?full_access=ykSciyNGwN&l=S)

So as to the tradition it creates, each and every guild, church, or school (on the scenic 'World of Factions' is better or worse at teaching some combination of these 15 spells abilities.  [blockquote=Me, earlier]A Church of Chaos (Orcus) will normally have decent ability in Spirit, Very Good Chaos, decent Restoratove, and decent death magic, and poor at most other types of spell ability. The Steel Libram Sages of Igbar might have decent Spirit, Very Good Mentalist skill, Above average Artificer.[/blockquote]

Don't know if that made it more clear, but I hope I added flame to the fire.

QuoteAlso an idea that resonates well with me. I'm trying to associate various different magical traditions with culture rather than race (that is, they're learned styles that can be taught to outsiders, not innate or genetic traits), and to create some distinctly recognizable styles.

Really, I'm quite interested in hearing about your impressions of your system, and your recommendations for people with similar ideas. What works, and what doesn't?

Actually since I'm mostly after just working out my homebrew and not so much after publishing things I cheerfully rob here and there like a magpie.

For the Yasgs, whose magic is based on ancient philosophies and bargains and is a decadent remnant of a forgotten empire, I use the magic system from Conan, which is point based for power usage and has a very small strict list. Certain kinds of bargains are required to learn certain schools of magic, so that for instance the priesthood of Derketo can use prediction spells but not necromantic ones and so on. This is not so much a total restriction as 'this is what you were able to be taught'. There are ways (usually corrupting ways) of learning more than one school but it requires you to break oaths and the like and there are consequences for that.

For the Elves in general magic is similar to certain psionics but I stole the system from Pendragon where areas have resonance which adds to your power. Generally an Elf in the city has less magical power than an Elf in the woods. Some of the effects they can do with a lot of magical power stored up or on a ley line or the like can be devastating. At the same time it is costly to the life force and accounts in part for the retiring nature of the elves--they recover faster in areas that have greater magical resonance.

For Dwarves I stole from Earthdawn. Ghosts of ancestors teach them crafts and arts that others cannot learn simply because they have no connection to ancestral lore. Depending upon the ancestry in question is the ability to learn things from rare artificer gifts to arts of using fire as magic. If I did a Dwarvish character creation table it would include types of abilities granted by ancestors and levelling feats as appropriate.

Gnomes are the only Illusionists in my game world, to give them a uniqueness. They have an innate ability to understand this magical craft that other races only have a rudimentary sense of. It has a lot to do with their somewhat secretive and shy nature.

Wizards in my setting are actually aliens. Elves believe they are actually tearing power out of the world whenever they do magic. This is generally true--while it does have an effect upon the wizard it has a greater one upon the world itself. Ironically wizards have more in common with things like aberrations than most other humanoids.

Clerics are fairly traditional D&D clerics with domains per deity and so on.

I believe you reviewed it a while ago, Luminous, but Kalara's system has just been reposted, heh. Currently, it's from a totally 'fiction-based' point of view - that is, not mechanically supported - and will probably stay that way, but writing stats for it wouldn't be a problem if anyone wanted to. It essentially works on the two universal forces of Tiet and Ka, world and soul energy. The soul powers things and provides creatures with thoughts and so on, the Tiet is the magic that makes up everything - from your flesh and organs to a rock or even a lightning strike.

Essentially, you've got wizards, which are the main magical practitioners in Kalara. Wizardly magic is quite simple, really, and can be learned by anyone with the 'knack'. It involves temporarily damming or redirecting flows in the vast river of Tiet that is the world to make things behave oddly. However, it cannot turn something into something else - you can make fire throw itself at someone, but you cannot simply create flames out of thin air.

Then you've got Sensitives and Telepaths and whatever other name you want to give them, who are generally shamans who learn to see into the Spirit World. The Spirit World is where all the souls live, to put it simply, and thoughts form a mass of spiritual noise inside it. Listening in to it on a constant basis can drive people mad at worst and cynical at best. It does allow people to listen in on the thoughts of a specific individual, however, and certain kings have advisors, or at least court mages, who have a little experience in such things. All but the most adept at this art can be countered by certain training that many nobles recieve during childhood.

Then you've got sorcerers, who essentially use their Ka to bludgen the Tiet into affecting the Ka, if that makes any sense. For example, you could alter the balance of emotional chemicals, or screw around with somebody's brain, to make them delusional or overcome by depression. This is considered evil by many people, but a form of it is used by some healers.

Finally in the 'magic' court you have Summoners, who terrify much of the general populace. Summoning is the only form of magic that can actually 'create' something, be it a fireball out of thin air or a fully-functioning hunting pack. Summoning could be called 'Creation', as it is essentially causing a 'magical reaction' within the Tiet to transform it. Rather than teasing it out of its normal pattern, a Summoner isolates a blob of Tiet and meddles with its properties until it turns into what he wants. Summoning is difficult to do right, although the power it rewards a successful user with is great, and is extremely dangerous. One slip-up, and the Tiet could react in a totally unforseen way, exploding powerfully enough to kill people for miles around. Or it could not. You never know until it happens. Creating creatures actually involves ripping bits of degenerate Ka energy out of the 'Packing' that surrounds the souls in the Spirit Realm and stuffing it into a form that you forge out of Tiet, which is even MORE difficult and requires some skill with multitasking.

Then you've got Psionics, the 'Shadow Art', which has been declared as heresy by several churches and a crime by a number of nations simply because nobody can understand it and only a select few can practice it. It is most common amongst elves, who have a great disdain for magic and are one of only three species (along with the orcs and the humans) who can practice it. The Shadow Art essentially works by using some hitherto-indetectable force to link with, and alter, other peoples' Ka (among a few other effects).

What magic can't do:

*Create things (except in the case of summoning)
*Raise the dead
*Rip the soul out of somebody (i.e. Wail of the Banshee)
*Do much in the way of healing beyond maintaining vital signs, and possibly putting a temporary stopper in wounds or removing blood clots
*Do much from a long distance
*Summon creatures, from anywhere
*Teleport, as far as any wizard who has tried can discover
*Imbue items with anything that a good smith could not, other than possibly extra sharpness or increased strength
*Mend objects, unless the pieces are totally complete (in which case you can glue them together like new)

What the Shadow Art can't do:

*Read minds or send telepathic messages
*Heal.
*Produce any effects on the physical
*Throw things (telekinesis)
*Produce energy such as fire or ice
*Use energy already there as a Wizard does beyond a few small tricks (such as increasing the size of a fire)

As you can probably see, the Shadow Art is not very physical at all. Even Psionics' mainstay, telekinesis, is gone. Rather, the Shadow Art deals with manipulating people themselves, modifying their personalities, speaking in their head and generally messing with their minds. Magic, on the other hand, is mostly parlour tricks, and the impressive spells such as lightning bolt and fireball are only worth the danger it takes to use them to a very powerful Summoner.

The system I'm working on a magic system for is a roll-under system. Skill ratings are between 5 and 15 (5+ability if you are untrained, 10+ability if you are trained) and you roll checks on four dice marked zero to five. You can stunt by adding dice (making it harder), and some people have abilities that let them do cooler stunts with fewer dice.

Now, the magic system is like a cross between mana and skill-based systems. If you roll under your skill, the spell works normally. If you fail, your skill goes down one point (plus one for every added die). If you end up with a skill of 10 or fewer, the spell also fails to go off. If you end up with 5 or fewer, you also suffer backlash. Extra dice can modify the spell (like with stunts) and some casters get free dice with their favored schools of magic.

Anyone can cast any spell, but it gets really hard if you don't know what you're doing in this system. I might also rule that you "know" a certain number of spells that you can cast on the fly but that otherwise they'd be long, complicated rituals.

Just some thoughts so far.

Magic seems to be one of the first things we all change in our settings both to help distinguish them and to make them our own. I'm with Eclipse on the simplicity of the Mutants and Masterminds system, what with the power tricks and power arrays to expand upon a single power's ability. I'm not sure how one could work that into a classed system, but I'm sure it's possible.

Ideally, for my setting, I went with a classically elemental system designed loosely off of the Wiccan/Greek/Japanese versions of elementalism (as opposed to China's, or other culture's), utilizing the elements of Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Void/Aether. I sorted effects, making a physical, mental, and elemental effect for each element.

Air: Physical, Speed; Mental, Senses; Elemental, Air and Electricity.
Earth: Physical, Defense; Mental, Wards; Elemental, Stone and Metal and Acid.
Fire: Physical, Strength and Force; Mental, Enchantment; Elemental, Fire.
Water: Physical, Transformation; Mental, Illusion; Elemental, Water and Cold.
Void: Mental, Luck; Elemental, Raw Magic.
Void/Light: Physical, Light and Rebirth; Mental, Healing.
Void/Dark: Physical, Darkness and Death; Mental, Destruction.

The Expanded Psionic Handbook influenced me greatly. I'd like to mechanically design the setting with spells like D&D, but utilize MP and Augmentations to continue to expand on the effects. Eclipse had some great ideas, with augmentations to add effects or to increase damage, while adding the spellcasting stat to raw damage to reign in power with non-magical attacks; one could see wands or staffs that could act like magic weapons for wizards.

More importantly to my setting, I've been working hard to consider how the nature of magic should effect the number of spellcasters. I go back and forth on this issue all the time, and I'm hoping 4th Edition helps me to gather my thoughts more (I'm a "more is less" sort of person, but the Role/Power Source system might help me to finalize my classes).

Again, I think magic is very important to a fantasy setting. All* settings have swords and armor, most* settings have elves and dwarfs, but almost all settings have their own magic. In the end, it all depends on why you're creating your setting.

Quote from: Lminous Cyaon(I also want to say at the outset that I'm not particularly interested in mechanics themselves, directly. My interest in mechanics involves how they affect the tone and feel of magic in a world-- mechanics can and do speak to issues such as what kinds of effects magic-users can produce, how often and how intensely they can produce them, and what sorts of limiting factors mitigate their power. Those are all things that I'm interested in, but I don't need to get much more nit-picky than that.)

Anyway, I'm brainstorming about some different schools and traditions of magic in my setting, and I got to wondering about what you all find appealing about various approaches to magic, and what you think falls flat.[/quote]Do you use a complicated or simple approach? Do you prefer a system like D&D's, where a spellcaster has the potential to learn thousands of differently nuanced spells, or a system where a magic user has a broad area of focus (such as "fire" or "mind reading") and flexibility to work within that narrow subject? If the former, how do you keep things manageable, and how do you give magic a theme or tone (if you do so at all?) If the latter, how do you give magic variety, and how do you set limits for what spellcasters can and can not do (if you do so at all?)[/quote]I guess the big problem for me (there are also several smaller ones) is that talking about magic is talking about selective bending of the laws of reality-- it wouldn't be magic if the methods and effects were possible for Joe Mundane. So in writing about magic for people to use, I have to try to balance being too stingy with the power, and being too free and undefined with it (which leads to chaos for two reasons: players have no idea what their actual magical capabilities are, and things can get quickly out of hand and rather silly (unless gratuitous use of magic is part of the tone you're shooting for anyway.))[/quote]I think part of the problem with the D&D system of magic is that it's too micromanaged by the writers. The urge to exhaustively catalogue every tiny detail of the system has led to massive, complicated lists of effects, which grow larger with each new book published. Players of highly-advanced spellcasters have to comprehend tens of thousands of words of text, just to understand what their spells can do (this is not counting the basic chapter overviews, just spell effects!) That is an unnecessarily large amount of detail, and it's a big reason why few people ever bother to examine and understand the system well enough to use it fluently.[/quote]There is also a great deal of thematic redundancy in the lists, as a result of this same micromanaging. For example, just look at how many ways there are to get an effect like "hurt things with fire." (I can think of about ten, just off the top of my head, and I haven't cracked the PHB in over a year.) I think I'd prefer to have a single, more flexible ability called "hurt things with fire", and the ability to employ it creatively to produce a variety of different effects, in a variety of different magnitudes as my character advances.[/quote]I also have a problem with the directionless nature of D&D magic. Such care is taken to ensure that spellcasters have a huge variety of abilities (from sending messages in magical "invisible ink" to climbing into holes in reality using rope to conjuring invisible armor to altering reality with a wish) that nobody ever gets a clear, thematic sense of what a magic user can actually accomplish (unless that answer is "all sorts of things.") I am pretty sure that I prefer an arrangement where any individual spellcaster's capabilities, while still flexible, can be summed up in one fairly brief sentence. For example, "spellcasters of Tradition XYZ can commune with spirits of the dead, bless or curse other people, and survive indefinitely without breathing air or drinking water." This still provides a lot of power and flexibility, but gives me a much clearer picture about what Tradition XYZ is all about than if I were to say, "they can do pretty much anything in this giant book of disparate effects."[/quote]
Again, I have to agree. I like the idea where different magic users fill different (and clearly delineated) roles from one another.

So I've held off on answering this thread for a while, because it's a really complex topic, and I've got a lot of ideas running around, some of which are hard to express.

First, as to the basic questions of the OP:

I prefer simple, flexible systems to complex ones with reams of spells. That said, there is something also wonderful about uncovering some forgotten, forbidden ritual spell. I just think those spells should be separated from combat powers (and thus be more like Incantations in Unearthed Arcana).

Quote from: RaelifinTo figure this out, I started with the question:
* What is magic?

When you look at magic in myths and literature, you mostly see a couple of archetypes. One is the mystic - drawing on internal power, divine gifts, or some other source, they are able to bend reality to their will. The other is the scholar - through long study they come to understand deep truths about reality that give them the ability to manipulate it in ways that mundanes, with their limited knowledge, cannot.[/quote]
I think the latter is always parried with the former (when present) in mythology. Odin gains some of his power through study (and usually so does Merlin), though some just have power. Mythologically, you generally don't see wizards that can gain power purely through study (without somehow having a supernatural predisposition for it).

As to the difference between different kinds of magic, I think it's legit if done well. I also think it might have something to do with the setting.

In many cases, you can see a culture where magic just *is*. It might be something anyone could do if they learned it (any old shmuck can put a spike in your footprint and hurt your foot... wouldn't have to be born with any innate power) or one where a select few people could do it (passed from mother to daughter in such and such a family, who maintains the shrine) but in any case there is only one magic.

But if you look at certain periods in history, you'll find a clash between different traditions, like the Pagans and Christians. And in some cases you can see a precedent for magic being called "arcane", like in alchemy and things, which again worked in ways counter to the perceived norm. Never mind that no one would call Christianity a religion with magical traditions (though, in fairness, it has a few bits and pieces... like divination using Urimm and Thumimm... if I spelled those right).

I would take a different approach than DnD normally does and delineate different magical traditions with different actual powers. A church-centric magical school would have things suitable to healing, exorcism, etc. An obsessive bunch of mystics might be my way of integrating that gray area between magic and tech. The fringe religion (whether persecuted or just marginalized) would have nature centric things. But beyond that I think they'd all work similarly mechanically.

Personally, I think that one of the big problems with DnD magic, outside its redundancy, is the fact that it's treated just like deities in most official worlds - something that's there, and uberly powerful, but for no specific reason whatsoever is not at all part of everyday life. With the magic given in the players' handbook, your average DnD society SHOULD, reasonably, be on a level with today's society if not more powerful. For example, a rocket to travel into space. Even without teleportation, a bottle with an infinite water and air supply and an oscillating wall of force across the end, tied together with a large bunch of similar bottles, would be able to carry any wizard out into the ether. Ice cream is easily possible, as are, essentially, computers, not to mention flying machines, guns, and artillery, carryable by a child, in the form of a foot-long, one-inch-thick tube of wood.

first..english isn't my main laguange so my apoligice if anything is abit hard to understand, just ask me to explain things abit more clear if needed, allright?

allright, I'm going to look at this from a mainly mechanical point of view.

now, to play the devils advocat, then I'll say that D&D list of thousands spells doesn't exclude the possibility of giving a mage flavor when he cast spells, but rather it allows for a player to give his magic exactly the kind of flavor he wants.


the thing with magic, is that magic is act of bending/breaking/re-writing reality. the difference in different setting, be it middlearth, grewhawk, harry potter or a homebrew is the restriction on how it can shape reality, defined by the setting.
the thing with the restrictions though, is that unless it's very narrow, then anything imagineable is possible within those restriction and it's therefor possible to think up an unlimited amounth of ways for magic to shape reality. and unlimit means that there's allways be some kind of effect that's outside the common frames that everything else can fit into.

take the example with a spell casting system where a mage learn abilities like "hurt things with fire" and "hurt things with lightning". and as he gets stronger, he'll be able to hurt things with fire and lightning in more creative and powerfull ways, but still using the same spells, for example...level 1, then both the hurt-with-fire and hurt-with-ligthning can only hit a single target, at level 5, then a AoE template can be added to the spells and so on and so forth.
How ever, the problem arises when the player suddenly think up a way to cast hurt-with-ligthning in a way that won't make sense for hurt-with-fire and which aren't covered by any of the templates that can be added to a spells, but which would make perfect sense IC.

either the GM have to
add the new way to cast hurt-with-ligthning as a template, which is almust like simple making a new spell, but also creating a template that won't make sense for other effects.
tell the player "no, the system doesn't allow for hurt-with-lightning to be cast that way, so you can't", which doesn't make for a happy player.
write the campaign settings magic system in a way that explains why it's only possible to create spell effects within the gaming systems limitation, which simple can be wierd unless very well written "and so the great god of magic said you can only cast hurt-with-x in such and such ways "
or say "okay, but only for hurt-with-ligthning" which essentially is making a new specific spell and going back to D&Ds system.

same thing goes with expanded psionic way of manipulating reality (for the purpose of this post then psionic is seen as an alternative spell casting system). a power allows you to do such and such, and you can spend more PP to make it do more stuff....but what if you think up a completly new way to use psionic power to change reality, which isn't covered by any existing power?
offcourse, if the only powers that can be used is the ones that currently are avalialble, then you have to somehow explain why it's not possible to use psionic in ways except for the current ones, and explain how the people in the campaign world figured which power is and isn't workable.

D&Ds' system is bloated, far from pretty and requere alot of book keeping, but it's one of the few way of capturing everything imaginable within the campaign worlds restriction on magic.

so, assuming that you want to keep the freedom to do everything imginable with magic within the restrictions and consider it an important part of the gaming experience/campaign world, then how do we, the gm/world builders who find D&D's Vacian system unfitting for thier campaign world, makes mages too undifined, or too much trouble to run a game with?


if we look at how to make the spell list more lean first, then there's the

the Psionic approach
Augmented powers helps alot on cutting down the different amounth of spells.  you'll still have alot, and get into situations where you can come up with more, but atleast you can just have a single power that's called "hurt-thing-with-fire" which then can be augmented to have a larger area of effect, and do more damage, which allows the one ability to have all the effects of ray of fire, fireball, delayed blast fireball (the damage, not the delayed effect, though the delayed effect could be something alike a meta magic ability that allows all spells to have a timer), flame strike and meteor storm.
it can still end up bloated, but it will take alot more time before it happens.
This approach works well to eleminate spells which basicly is just a scaled up version of another spell.


Generic spells can be applied template
Moonte Cooks Arcana Unearted (or is it Uneated Arcana?) uses this approach, where for example all spells named "hurt with energy" can then be applied a meta-magic feat called fire, which turn the element to fire, and adds +1 damage per die. then problem is when you reach spells with a very specfic kind of effect like create food.
this approach is good to cut down on the the amounth of spells that does the same, but just with different energy type, and can also help define a wizard by the type of template he have avaliable.

BESM dynamic power approach
Dynamic power is one of the abilities that a character can choice in the BESM system, which depends alot on trust on the player not abusing it. the basic idea behind it, is that the ability represent how the character can controll a specific element, sphre of influence, natural phenomenon, ideology or such like. the large the the cathegory is and the more controll the character have, the more expensive is the ability (BESM uses a point boy character building system)
this approach how ever requeres a mature player who won't try to abuse it, and a experienced GM who can handle it and also know how to controll it
if that's possible though, then this ones allows for alot of freedom while still defining a wizard through his choice of what he can controll.



2.ndly we can look at how we can change the way spell casting class work so that they are easier to work with and/or get more flavor.

the sorcerer approach the Sorceror class restriction on maximum amounth of spells that can be chosen, is actually an excellent way to keep the freedom of thinking up anything imaginable, reducing the book keeping and give a the spell caster flavor through his spell choice.(assuming the player doesn't simple try to optimise his sorceror) there will offcourse be thousands spells to choice between, but atleast it's only something that have to be worried about when the spells are chosen.

Specific wizard  have acces to specific type of spell approach
frankly, it's like Specialised Wizard in general, the whole red/white/black roped wizard approach in Dragon lance campaign setting or the difference between divine/arcane spell list. it cuts down on the book keeping, by simple putting some type of magic off-limit, meaning that the player/GM won't have to bother with those atleast.
Works well to define and give wizards flavor, without limiting imagination within the set flavor and also trims away all the spells outside the wizards specilisation from the list.


different wizard casts spells in different way
this approach doesn't neccesarely prevents a bloated list of spells known, unless the way spells is casted also limits the type of spells that can be learned. for example, a rune mage can only learn spells that have a duration, but can have the duration last for a long time. it can also be something as simple as a one type of wizard casts spells by channelising it through a foci and diferent kind of foci give different effect.


and it's getting too late now for me to think up more and add in my own approach, so I'll save that for later.
Anyway my point is that the whole idea with a list of thousand of spell effects isn't neccesarely bad and infact can be seen as a neccesity, but it's the D&D way of working with the spell list, where a wizard in theory can learn thousands of spells with no focus at all, and also have to learn several dusins of spells just to scale up the same effect, that's the problem. Unless the player/gm doesn't put some flavor on the spell list them self through the spells chosen. (like in the bigby fists example)

ups, double post. anywya I can delate my own post?

As many others here, my magic system is still very much under construction, and is mostly just at the conceptual stage right now.

In my setting, Magic is simply something that you don't understand. This also means that magic is relative.

For example, a small child is out at the market with his father and sees a juggler doing what he does best. In the eyes of the child he is witnessing an act of magic. To the juggler, it's just a trick that he knows how to do. Now some guy in a robe comes along and begins juggling, but without using his hands, or even touching the balls. Now both the child and the juggler are convinced that this guy is performing magic, though to the robed fellow, it's just a simple trick.

This is along the same line of thought as "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

At the moment I'm still trying to figure what I want characters to be able to do. I'm thinking about having a few different means in which these particularly impressive "tricks" can be performed, physical awesomeness, summoning, subtly manipulating fate, etc... but I haven't decided which yet.

Lots of interesting discussion here on magic, a problem thats at the core of any succesful system or setting. The DnD magic system leavs alot to be desired, and although it sufficiently captures a sense of nostalgia, it does little to have any sort of real "feel". It's tough to play in a system you love with an element you can't stand, and the possibilites of magic as defined by games like Mage and even Ars Magica, makes DnD magic seem like a lame duck. The problem with comparing DnD to games and systems like Mage, is that in a game like Mage EVERY player is using magic, and is a mage. This concept doesn't fit with the rest of the DnD world.

So yeah its a tough nut to crack, I've taken a stab at it by designing a system for a friends upcoming campaign (he hates the DnD magic system and refuses to run it), while I'm really willing to play any system thats fun, cause thats the key to a good game, I went ahead and tried to think up a free form magic system for his setting which otherwise uses a D&D base. Some of the classes are redesigned to fit and some are completely made new.

This is the magic system as it relates to Mages (wizards) and Priests (clerics) rangers don't cast spells instead having a variant form of wildshape (druids are a whole new thing here dealing with plants and forbidden from dealing with animals...I created a new base class for them) Paladins cast as priests but at either 1/2 or 1/4 strengths. Bards dont cast spells instead having alot more song based abilities.

Magic System

In order for a mage to manifest an effect, she must have access to the Discipline from which she wants to manifest an effect. She must then succeed on a Concentration check at DC 15; this can be modified by any stressful situations the mage finds herself in. This is followed by a Knowledge (Discipline) check in order to actually manifest the powers. The DC of the roll is determined by the level of power she wants to attempt to manifest. If a mage merely wants to externalize her inner magic she only needs to succeed on the Concentration check.

A mage may manifest two or more powers and weave them together, but this raises the DC of her Concentration and Knowledge checks exponentially.

There is one Discipline of magic accessible by any character class, at the cost of a Feat:

Power Within [General]
Prerequisite: Charisma 11
Benefit: You gain the ability to harness the spark of magic which resides within your own body. You may use this ability to give yourself boosts to skills, attacks, saves, and ability usage. The boost is equal to an unnamed +1 bonus at first level and increase by +1 every 3 levels thereafter. In order to manifest this boost you must succeed on a DC 15 Spellcraft check. This ability is usable a number of times or day equal to your charisma bonus + 1 every 6 levels.  
Special: The mage and priest classes gain this ability as a bonus Feat at first level.

There are 8 Disciplines of magic accessible only by a mage, they are:

'¢   Telepathy and Mind Effects: [Knowledge (Telepathy)] These manifestations affect the mind and sense of other creatures. When manifesting this discipline a mage can communicate at a distance, read a subject's thoughts, fascinate or charm a creature or dominate a creature's will. The saving throw to resist these effects is Willpower.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Detect alignment, send short message bursts, charm weak creatures, fascinate small groups
25   Detect thoughts, speak telepathically, charm stronger creatures, fascinate and suggest large groups
35   Create telepathic links, read minds, charm small groups, use compulsion on unwilling targets
45   Create permanent telepathic links, scour all secrets from a mind, dominate creatures, charm large groups and break their wills
 
'¢   Energy: [Knowledge (Energy)]These manifestations include many different energy types including lightning, sound, magnetism, light and darkness. When harnessing these powers a mage can manipulate existing energies and as she grows in power she can eventually manifest these energies on her own. The saving throw to resist these effects is Reflex.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Gain a measure of control over small amounts of these naturally occurring energies, create light and darkness, send messages using sound to nearby allies, shoot minor sparks and shocks harnessing lightning, cause nearby metal to become weakly magnetic, intuit direction at all times
25   Gain a large measure of control over naturally occurring energies, create larger areas of light and dark and make them permanent, shatter small object with sound, send small bolts of lightning, cause larger areas of metal to become magnetic
35   Create and control each of the energies, use light and dark to blind and confuse, create send major bolts of lightning, shatter even metal with sound, cause metal to become strongly magnetic
45   Create and finely manipulate all the energies and mix them freely, shatter the hardest substances with sound, use light and darkness to shroud entire cities, bend all metal to your will, call down the lightning of the heavens

'¢   Elements: [Knowledge (Primal Elements)] This is one of the most primal of manifestations, incorporating the base elements of earth, fire, water and air. A mage first taps into these powers by being able to affect and control present sources of these elements, as she gains mastery over this power she can call upon these primal furies and shape them at her will. The saving throw to resist these effects is Reflex.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Control small fires, control small gusts of wind, control small pools of water, control small areas of earth all in broad strokes
25   Control large fires, control large gusts of wind, control large pools of water, control large areas of earth all with finer control
35   Create fire, create water, create earth, create wind and control all these with precision
45   Create and finely manipulate all the primal elements and freely mix them

'¢   Creation: [Knowledge (Creation)] This series of manifestations can contain both the most subtle and the most magnificent of effects. A mage begins with the ability to create mundane objects, and as she grows in power can create items of wonder and powerful magical objects. When creating thing of more and more power and wonder a mage must sacrifice some of her essence and infuses it into the item.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Create a small tool, create a mundane weapon, create a mundane piece of furniture, create clothing
25   Create a moderately complex tool, create a masterwork weapon, create mundane armor, create objects of art, create small structures
35   Create a complex tool, create magical weapons, create magical armor, create magical items of wonder, create magical rings, create masterpieces of art, create moderately sized structures
45   Create mechanical traps and tools, create powerfully magical weapons and armor, create magical staffs and rods create large structures, create minor artifacts

'¢   Corporal Manipulation: [Knowledge (Corporal Manipulation)]  This powerful manifestation allows a mage to manipulate her own body, beyond the limits if what anyone can do with their internalized energy. A mage can use this forces to physically manifest changes in her form, giving her minor abilities at first, like seeing in the dark or gaining gills or webbing on their hands and feet, to great sweeping changes granting her wings or tentacles or any manner of oddity. It is said that it is this power which the great Dragons of humanity can control in a perfected sense. The capacity of mages when manifesting this power is like an ant compared to a giant when put against the ability of Dragons using this power. The saving throw to resist these effects is Fortitude.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Give yourself Darkvision, gain gills, gain webbed feet/hands, gain claws, gain spider hair on your limbs
25   Gain a tail, gain extra limbs, gain burrowing claws, gain natural armor
35   Gain wings, gain tentacles, gain multiples of any body part, emulate anything seen in nature
45   Change yourself into another creature, gain all of a creatures special abilities

'¢   Teleportation: [Knowledge (Teleportation)] Manifesting these powers allows a mage the power to move an object, another creature or herself through space and time. At first the mage can only move short distances and affect small areas, but as she grows in power she can literally cross the vast distances of the world with merely a thought.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Teleport yourself no more than 30 feet, send an object to a nearby home, send an ally 20 feet away, send an enemy 10 feet away but not into any solid object
25   Teleport yourself 5 miles, send an object to another part of the city, send an ally a few miles or bring an ally to you, send an enemy into a nearby pool of water or into the air
35   Teleport yourself across and a group 500 miles, send an object to a nearby city, send or bring an ally from city to city, send an enemy into a solid object
45   Teleport to anywhere you have seen and bring a group, send or summon any object anywhere, send an enemy into the far reaches of space or the deepest ocean

'¢   Telekinesis: [Knowledge (Telekinesis)] This power allows a mage to manipulate force in order to affect objects and creatures around her. At beginning levels a mage can shift things around her and may be able to lift and manipulate smaller areas. As she grows in power a mage can focus her will to manifest the greatest of telekinetic mastery, shifting objects in precise and complex patterns and lifting or manipulating huge areas of effect. The saving throw to resist these effects is Reflex.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Lift up to 10 lbs, exert minor force on a creature, manipulate minor tasks
25   Lift up to 100 lbs, exert moderate force on a creature, manipulate moderately complex tasks
35   Lift up to 1000 lbs, exert major force on a creature, manipulate very complex tasks
45   Lift up to 2 tons, exert extreme force on a creature, manipulate extraordinarily complex tasks

'¢   Glamour: [Knowledge (Glamour)] The manifestation of these powers allows a mage to generate figments and illusions, bewildering fantasies to fool and misdirect the unwary. At first mages can only create minor illusion limited to only a few of the senses and able to fool their subjects only under the most cursory of glances. At the highest levels of her power a mage can weave dizzying figments and hallucinations to confound the most suspicious individuals. The saving throw to resist these effects is Willpower.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Create a minor illusion, hide a small object in a veil of invisibility, create a smell or minor sound
25   Create a moderate illusion, fool a group of people with a glamour, veil yourself in invisibility, conjure an illusion dealing with at least 3 senses
35   Create a major illusion, fool a large group of people, conjure an illusion dealing with all 5 senses, veil a group in invisibility
45   Create a semi permanent illusion, fool almost every person who encounters the illusion, conjure an illusion that can affect the real world, veil an army in invisibility

There is one Discipline only accessible to a priest, it is:

'¢   Life: [Knowledge (Life)] The  manifesters of this power gain an element of control over the powers of life and death, giving them the ability to heal injuries, disease, poison, fatigue and damage to the soul and bodies internal energies. The greatest wielders of this power hold command over the very nature of life and death. The saving throw to resist these effects is Fortitude.
                       Example DC's
DC                       Manifestation
15   Heal 1d8 wounds, cure poison, cure disease
25   Heal 3d8 wounds, cure ability damage, cure disease, cure poison
35   Heal 5d8 wounds, restore lost levels, heal permanent ability loss, regenerate limbs
45   Heal 10d8 wounds, cure plagues, restore life, heal damage to the soul
*anything a priest can heal or restore, she can also cause.

To expand a bit further on my earlier post (I had to rush to finish it, since my class was just ending) I think I'll go into a few more details on how stuff that we would consider to be supernatural works in my world.

The first category is what I call skill based magic. This is something that we would consider to be normal, but done so well that it seems magic. Take a high level sea captain as an example. One with sufficient skill will never become becalmed, in addition he will always have favourable winds, and when a storm does come up it will be a boon as the higher winds will allow him to make better time.

Another example would be a swordsman who's blade is so swift that it cannot be seen by "mortal" eyes, and is swung with such force to create blasts of wind that will knock his opponents back. The Book of Nine Swords would be a great example of this style of magic.


Then there are the abilities that we would consider to be supernatural, yet are normal in my world. I'm still working on the these methods of magic, so there's not much in the way of details. Here's the quick summary.

True Belief - You believe in a higher purpose so much that some of your beliefs become truths. If you believe that your foes blades shall not strike you because you have the protection of some celestial being, then anybody attempting to strike you will have a more difficult time doing so.

Imbuing - Taking some "supernatural" property and binding it in a physical form. This will have some ability like and Artificer or a Binder.

Elementalism - Manipulating elements. I've got to figure out what the different elements in my world will be yet.

Diviniation - Knowing things. This will likely be more of a Skill Based magic focused on the knowledge skills.

Fatespinning - Better lucky than good. Most fatespinners aren't even conscious of what they're doing.

Reality Bending - Think of the Matrix. These people recognize that the laws of reality can be bent, and make an effort to do so.


I'm also planning on having a number of different themes of magic. For example there might be shamanistic magic, diabloism, wizardry, etc... all of which will work off the same sets of abilities, the difference being simple flavour.


For the mechanical aspect of the system, I'm planning on basing it on Mutants and Masterminds, with a more limited/packaged power list. For example Elementalism would be one core ability, like Magic, which could then have a number of alternate abilities which are chosen from the Elementalism list. That should keep powers fairly flexible while keeping each characters list of abilities smaller.

In addition I'm thinking of having a skill associated with each ability, which you must have a certain number of ranks in in order to unlock extra features. For example Elemantalism rank 12 might allow a character to use a power that has two entwined elemental properties.

For actually using a power that requires activation I was thinking I would have it as something that tires the user. Back when I was planning on using a VP/WP system I was thinking it would have a VP cost, instead I may just have it a will save with and increasing DC based on the number of uses in the encounter to avoid being bruised.



Overall I'm going for the feel that you do something amazing because your character is amazing. Magic should be simple, but flexible, and it should be equally beneficial to spread yourself out between a few different schools as it would be to focus in one. The cost for magic should be fairly light. To learn magic characters just need to work at whatever they want to be good at. To use magic characters should just have to expend some effort, it shouldn't be any harder to alter reality than it is to swing a sword (though the result for each should also be equally potent). However characters should also be able to push themselves to achieve great levels of power. Perhaps taking lethal damage in order to augment their powers.