If asked for the most-disused ability score, most D&D players would respond "Charisma, it's the dump-stat."
But why?
Strength lets you beat harder and more accurately.
Dexterity lets you shoot more accurately and dodge and add to your ref saves.
Constitution gives you more health and better fort saves.
Intelligence gives you more skills and languages and grants Wizards their necessary spells.
Wisdom gives a bonus on will saves and helps Clerics and Monks do their thing.
Charisma grants bonuses to Bard and Sorcerer spells and helps Paladins.
Now, none of those things are very important compared to this one thing:
Charisma boosts the Diplomacy skill.
It is (or should be) a well known fact that Diplomacy is rather over-powered in 3.X in the same way that the Wizard is a moderately good class. With a few appropriate feats/abilities Diplomacy can turn a bitter enemy into an eternal ally. And a half-decent Bard or Rogue can do it without much problem. Half-elves also get a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and humans can use their extra skill points to pick it up cross-class if necessary. As outlined here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html) a level 2 Bard can easily hit +14 just by picking up skills that would already be useful to him; 5 ranks in Diplomacy, 5 ranks in Bluff (+2 synergy), 5 ranks in Sense Motive (+2 synergy) and 5 ranks in Knowledge: Nobility (+2 synergy) with a 16 in Charisma. Rich Burlew goes on to better describe the broken-ness of Diplomacy and even outlines a way to fix it. But we should assume that most DMs don't use this method, mostly because most of them probably haven't read the particular article.
Anyway, the point of this thread is to show that Charisma is NOT a dump-stat, and could even be one of the most important for any (non-Dwarf) character! Since I also LOVE playing Sorcerers and Bards, Charisma is my favorite stat, and (unless I'm building a character personality that doesn't work with a good Charisma score) is usually at least my 3rd highest score, if not 1st or 2nd.
Anyone agree or want to make a case against Charisma being as good as I claim? Feel free to also make comments on Rich's Diplomacy fix if you want to take the time to read it.
Quote from: DarkxarthAnyone agree or want to make a case against Charisma being as good as I claim? Feel free to also make comments on Rich's Diplomacy fix if you want to take the time to read it.
As always, it depends on the type of campaign being run. If your primary enemies are going to be golems, mindless undead, and other no-intelligence creatures, Diplomacy isn't gonna do you much good.
EDIT: Also, remember that it takes a full minute to use Diplomacy, and that to use it as a single-round action means to take a -10 to the roll.
And assuming the DM and other players will allow you to take it to extremes. If you're talking about the kind of ridiculous sometimes mentioned as CO on the WotC boards, most DMs I've played with would shut it down pretty quickly, because it's not really fun for anyone (maybe you, but I doubt it).
Which is one reason they've talked about re-doing Diplomacy in 4e.
Not that I disagree that Charisma should be crucial for all characters. In literature (and movies) you don't see many uncharismatic heroes, because such heroes are boring and can't get people to follow them. Indeed, Conan, is described as strong and agile, but Howard makes his strongest trait his sheer force of personality.
That's true both of you, Diplomacy isn't always useful, and of course in one-shot dungeon-crawls it isn't always going to be helpful. I just wanted to give some love to Charisma, it being my favorite stat.
But even with a -10 penalty a level 2 Bard can still easily pull off some impressive Diplomacy on a decent roll.
And of course with a good DM, no one ability should overshadow another, some combat, some stealth, some puzzling, some face-work, etc.
The problem with Diplomacy is it's vagueness, it takes a good DM to improvise a friendly Orc. ;)
The overpowered nature in the diplomacy skill is not in the skill mechanics, it's in the fact that it exists as a skill at all. This is because of an understandable mistake that the geeks and nerds that suck at social interacts implement based apon their experiences:
They socially inept begin to think that there's some sort of random stuff going on when people talk, and that you can train yourself to better manipulate things.
Fact: You can train yourself at manipulating people.
Better articulation improves your ability to communicate and facilitates other peoples' ability to empathize with you.
Fact: People don't randomly agree with you or randomly not agree with you, unless they are intentionally randomly making decisions on a whim.
When trying to get someone to do something, there is no actual "chance" involved. When you ask someone to do something, you give them a reason to, and then either the reason is good enough, or not.
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I've seen a similar conversation: http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=1101
Maybe they articulated what I'm talking about better.
Quote from: the_takenThe overpowered nature in the diplomacy skill is not in the skill mechanics, it's in the fact that it exists as a skill at all. This is because of an understandable mistake that the geeks and nerds that suck at social interacts implement based apon their experiences:
They socially inept begin to think that there's some sort of random stuff going on when people talk, and that you can train yourself to better manipulate things.
Fact: You can train yourself at manipulating people.
Better articulation improves your ability to communicate and facilitates other peoples' ability to empathize with you.
Fact: People don't randomly agree with you or randomly not agree with you, unless they are intentionally randomly making decisions on a whim.
When trying to get someone to do something, there is no actual "chance" involved. When you ask someone to do something, you give them a reason to, and then either the reason is good enough, or not.
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I've seen a similar conversation: http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=1101
Maybe they articulated what I'm talking about better.
I think the "chance" represents how well you manage to articulate. Sure you practice all the time to get that +14 bonus, but maybe you totally misjudge what a certain person will be well disposed to when you roll a 1.
Although I do agree that this is a strange thing to have as a mechanic. On the one hand, it makes sense, since a character might be better at diplomacy than the player, and the fact that the player can't manipulate people shouldn't mean the character can't. Still, there should be no randomness to it, unless you're taking moods into account, or some extenuating circumstance that I can't even come up with an example of, to piss them off and make your diplomacy fail. It's a difficult matter, and I don't know how to deal with it. I do however agree with the sentiment expressed in the OP, in that I too love Charisma.
*dispel lurking*
Quote from: the_takenThe overpowered nature in the diplomacy skill is not in the skill mechanics, it's in the fact that it exists as a skill at all. [...]
I must disagree. Mr. Burlew already explained in detail, why all problems with the skill lie ONLY with its mechanics:
* It can only be used against NPCs - it's like saying that "this +5 keen vorpal sword can only damage NPCs". It's just stupid.
* It requires a flat DC to change an NPC's attitude towards you. No matter if you try to pacify the guard of the castle you tried to sneak into or the charging dragon - a flat DC will do the trick, other circumstances are completely ignored.
* It has vague descriptions. The skill's description is about as useful as if the Climb skill said "with a successful skill check you can climb walls", but not mentioning anything about the angle or composition of the surface, or other influences while climbing.
* It can be boosted way too easily. Not only the 4 synergies (or so), but also the ease with which to gain multiple, stacking, bonuses (marshal dip for "motivate charisma" aura, warlock dip for that invocation whose name escapes me right now and that adds a +6 bonus to Diplomacy, items that grant circumstance/competence/insight bonuses to skills like the skill shards from the XPH, etc pp).
And finally, when there are mechancis for a player to kill stuff with a sword while not being able to wield one irl, there should be mechanics for a player to fasttalk/bluff/intimidate someone into something without being able to do so irl.
*resume lurking*
Must give some love to Charisma. we have a 'social reaction' CC that uses charisma and social skills every time a person is encountered and interacted with that does not have a strong opinion of the PC already. Not a dump stat in my world.
Also
[blockquote=the_taken]
The overpowered nature in the diplomacy skill is not in the skill mechanics, it's in the fact that it exists as a skill at all. This is because of an understandable mistake that the geeks and nerds that suck at social interacts implement based apon their experiences:
They socially inept begin to think that there's some sort of random stuff going on when people talk, and that you can train yourself to better manipulate things.[/blockquote]
I find this like saying that fighting is a skill because nerds are weak and think there is some random stuff that goes on when people fight. So I must disagree.
Here's one of my things when it comes to D&D: The question is not "What's up with CHA?", it's "What's up with WIS?". I seriously consider WIS to be a sacred cow of D&D that should be ground into burgers.
Question: What does the WIS represent?
Quote from: the_takenHere's one of my things when it comes to D&D: The question is not "What's up with CHA?", it's "What's up with WIS?". I seriously consider WIS to be a sacred cow of D&D that should be ground into burgers.
Question: What does the WIS represent?
[ic=The SRD on Wisdom]Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one's ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one's surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. [/ic]
Willpower (Will save and Divine Spellcasting)
Perception (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive)
Common Sense (Profession)
Intuition (Survival, Heal)
Pretty wide net of mental things, but fairly well described. I see no real problem.
Quote from: the_takenThe overpowered nature in the diplomacy skill is not in the skill mechanics, it's in the fact that it exists as a skill at all. This is because of an understandable mistake that the geeks and nerds that suck at social interacts implement based apon their experiences:
They socially inept begin to think that there's some sort of random stuff going on when people talk, and that you can train yourself to better manipulate things.
Fact: You can train yourself at manipulating people.
Better articulation improves your ability to communicate and facilitates other peoples' ability to empathize with you.
Fact: People don't randomly agree with you or randomly not agree with you, unless they are intentionally randomly making decisions on a whim.
When trying to get someone to do something, there is no actual "chance" involved. When you ask someone to do something, you give them a reason to, and then either the reason is good enough, or not.
----------------------
I've seen a similar conversation: http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=1101
Maybe they articulated what I'm talking about better.
I don't think necessarily that it's chance so much as other factors that can't be taken into account (not sure if I said that right).
For example, if you're talking with someone you don't know, you could very easily inadvertently chance on a topic of conversation that is particularly interesting or dull or one that's likely to upset that person for whatever reason. Yes you can try and stick with safer topics, and you can read context clues to get some hint as to what's the right thing to say, but some stuff does just come out of left field. If I met Jay Leno on the street (and lets assume I know nothing about him) I wouldn't think of him as being Republican, for example. And people have suggested some pretty awful violent solutions to the problems in the Middle East not knowing I was Iranian. For another example there was this one girl I so would not have pegged as being a Ghost in the Shell fan.
Yeah, maybe they could think of a way to incorporate sense motive instead, but... I think training at "getting" what you're supposed to say in a given situation plus force of personality plus "random" factors has it down to a T.
As has been said, the true fault with Diplomacy is the static non-scaling DC. That and how easy it is to boost. When I can easily have a fourth level character* with a +30 to diplomacy, who can take 10 in all situations things are getting out of hand.
However I think there is much more to the charisma attribute than just the diplomacy skill. Infact there is more charisma synergy than there is with any other attribute.
Paladin/Blackguard get Charisma to saves.
Pal/BG get turn undead attempts based on Charisma.
Pal/BG can spend turn undead attempts to add Cha to AC (Divine Shield), touch ac, checks to resists bull rush, checks to resist trip and checks to resist grapple (Shield Block, me thinks from PHBII)
Pal/BG can spend turn attempts to add Cha to Damage (Divine Might).
Pal/BG can get Cha to attack (Smite Alignment).
Pal/BG can heal based on Cha (Lay on Hands).
Pal/BG can multiclass to get Cha based spellcasting (Nar Demonbinder is my favourite for this).
Also there's also a lot of synergy for a Bard in a similar manner. And don't forget Use Magic Device, the other most broken skill, is also Charisma based.
The BBEG for my current campaign is built around his charisma attribute, and boy are the players in for an ugly fight when they finally try to take him down.
*For those of you who are curious, Race is Changeling, 18 starting charisma[+4], one level in Rogue with the Changeling substitution level[take 10], one level in marshal with Motivate Charisma[+4] and skill focus diplomacy[+3], one level in Warlock with Beguiling Influence[+6], one level in Incarnate with Silver Mask[+4], seven skill ranks[+7] and the feat persuasive[+2]
I don't think anyone disputes that Charisma is useful for paladins, bards, or sorcerers.
But it should probably be useful for all classes, since it seems to be a strong trait of any enduring hero (again I reference Conan). Hero's with weak personalities are boring.
Of course, Charisma, arguably, should be something one has or does not have, not something measured in a scale like strength. It is a quality that amazing people possess, which allows them to be heroes, leaders, and prophets. Indeed, it was originally magical (or almost magical) in nature, referring strictly to the ability of a prophet to influence or perform other miracles.
An aside: the fact that diplomacy doesn't work on PCs makes it a more useful skill for them than for NPCs, creating a double standard. Albeit a necessary one, since no player would be having fun if someone else tells him how his character has to feel/think (at which point the canny player asks, "so, uh, why do you need me here tonight at all?").
Quote from: DarkxarthWillpower (Will save and Divine Spellcasting)
Perception (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive)
Common Sense (Profession)
Intuition (Survival, Heal)
Pretty wide net of mental things, but fairly well described. I see no real problem.
I think he phrased his question wrong, not to derail the thread. I think what he really meant was "WHY does Wis represent these?"
They are, in the main, not strongly connected to one another. Willpower has nothing to do with common sense, other than being able to refuse a plan because it makes no sense to you. I mean, a guard who followed a tyrannical dictator rather than joni teh rebellion should have: A, perceptive skills (He's a guard), and B, common sense (Tyrant has far more forces than he can face, etc), but relatively low willpower (he's the guard to the tyrant over his lands).
Intuition is it's own category, but I fell I've rambled enough in the CHA thread, so I'll make a last point. Wis would make more sense if Cha determined will saves. A strong force of personality tends to be accompanied by a force of willpower. (But then again, wouldn't that just make it stronger yet? ;P)
The flat DC thing with Diplomacy really is a bit of a problem, but I'm not entirely sure I like Rich Burlew's solution, either. I think an easier way to get the same effect that he had, without having to include the extra table, is to just allow a -1 penalty to Diplomacy rolls against a specific NPC for this such as:
* Diplomacy rerolls that fail to improve the NPC's demeanor (coming off as whininess)
* Successful Intimidate checks (coming off as bulliness)
* Other negative encounters (DM discretion; One leper may welcome the chance to rid his condition, while another may prefer the excuse to collect alms)
Of course, the penalties are accumulated by the party as a whole (the tactful bard still is in the company of the vicious barbarian, after all), but only need to be applied on a NPC-by-NPC basis.
[spoiler=Example]
(Party walk by a leper collecting alms)
"Alms for a leper?"
"Sorry, we're busy" (first failed Diplomacy check)
"Aw, just a few copper? I don't ask for much"
"Please, just leave us alone!" (second failed Diplomacy check)
"You don't have to whine, all I want is just a copper or two!"
(Cleric heals the leper)
"Now you don't need the money anymore"
"But that's no fair! I still need the money, and now I have no way to get it!"
"Look, if you don't leave us alone, I'll rip off one of your legs and hit you over the head with it!" (Successful Intimidate check)
"F... fine, any.... anything you say.... good day, sirs..."
Next time they meet that leper, Diplomacy checks for the entire party will be at -3[/spoiler]
I really think the only thing wrong with the charisma in 3.x is the flat dc. I saw a chart made out for calculating dc's based on the relationship of the two characters, what they're trying to accomplish (leave 5 minutes early v.s. assassinate your king), and even the underlying motives of the character being persuaded. The beggar in your example would get a +0 for relationship because they're strangers, but after a few fails the cleric is annoyed and they are in poor standing. This would give him a negative (maybe 2 or 3).
As for all the synergies and getting a +30 at lvl 4, think of what that character isn't getting in...everything else. If his stats are pumped into talking, what are his chances of making it up that 50 foot rope out of the flooding cave (can't pursuade water). If you're pumped into talking your chances of surviving to lvl 4 from lvl 1 are probably pretty low unless you do a lot of standing in the back throwing rocks and hoping not to get hit. So, it DOES have it's drawbacks.
Charisma is far from useless, but it's not the uber-stat you make it out to be.
The reason? Only one character in the party really needs it. A party benefits from having two characters with high Strength or even Intelligence much more than it benefits from two characters with high Charisma. If a party has two or more "talky" characters in it, like a bard and a sorcerer, or a paladin and a talky rogue, they're probably going to step on each other's toes and fight over everything.
So, Charisma can still be a dump stat about three-fourths of the time.
Quote from: HaphazzardAs for all the synergies and getting a +30 at lvl 4, think of what that character isn't getting in...everything else. If his stats are pumped into talking, what are his chances of making it up that 50 foot rope out of the flooding cave (can't pursuade water). If you're pumped into talking your chances of surviving to lvl 4 from lvl 1 are probably pretty low unless you do a lot of standing in the back throwing rocks and hoping not to get hit. So, it DOES have it's drawbacks.
Depending on your class (IE: Rogue) and your INT bonus, you still have a pretty good chance getting out of that if you still max out Use Rope, Climb, or Swim. Also keep in mind, if you're only getting the other skills for the synergy bonus, you can ditch them after second level, using the skill points for other skills.
As for the "throwing rocks" scenario, the only way that I see Diplomacy getting in the way of combat is through the Negotiator feat, and lessening a single physical ability a bit. Just because you're "talky" doesn't mean you're physically incapable of swinging a sword around.