So, I've been thinking lately about the essential nature of monsters, and what separates them from each other. I've been trying to consider what makes something a dragon (a favorite example for many gamers).
Is a dragon just being a big reptilian monster?
I was discussing it with Tybalt on my Kishar Animas thread, and he said something interesting:
Quote from: TybaltDragons: dragons in my setting are actually powerful elemental beings as well as reptilian. They are associated with the main four alchemical elements, earth, air, water, fire. This is part of why they love treasure; they love the purity of perfected metals and gemstones and the like; it is almost like a symphony of elements to them that is hypnotic in its fascination.
your[/i] setting? Do they have a special background or creation myth?
In my setting, dragons don't exist.... Except maybe as monsters in myths and legends. In that role, they would almost universally be just the "generic monster" - chaotic, ravenous, vicious, violent, malevolent, relentless.
As for what makes a dragon? Well.... big, scales, and, in my mind, some form of supernatural quality. if it's just a big lizard, then surely it's a dinosaur. It's got to breath fire, or cast spells, or have human-like intelligence, or be able to fly despite the fact that it weighs a stupid amount and it's wings could never lift it. That's what a dragon is, to me.
On the other hand, just cause that's what a dragon IS, doesn't mean people can't CALL things dragons, which are just big lizards.
Now a dragon isn't just wings and scales and breath and claws, that what a dragon MEANS. What a dragon IS, is power.
I figured someone was going to use it eventually, so I did. And it fits right in. To me, a dragon conjures images of certain things, power, wealth, longevity, to name a few. My players, and I'm sure yours, talk about the dragon that they slayed much more often than any other encounter, even if it was a big more dramatic.
A dragon is a dragon if it conjures up the imagery associated with a dragon. At least to me.
I'd say it was the other way round. Dragon is wings/scales/breath/claws whatever, but what it means, what it really represents... that's power.
Quote from: KindlingI'd say it was the other way round. Dragon is wings/scales/breath/claws whatever, but what it means, what it really represents... that's power.
First, I was pulling from the Pirates quote, and second, when you look in the dictionary, you'll find the scales wings claws etc., it's what it means. But what a Dragon IS, the essense of the dragon, that's power.
Dragons to me are a form of power, as others have said. But I see them as being so powerful and unique that any action one undertakes echoes throughout the ages. In Haveneast, dragons are incredibly rare (do they even exist?), have all of the standard western qualities (though barring a few exceptions, there is none of this "color denotes breath weapon and habitat" nonsense - they all breathe fire and may live anywhere), and they are extremely intelligent. The very death of one creates a void in history for millenia. That being said, dragons don't always have to be the big nasty beasts that the heroic knights ride out to defeat (and they aren't always in Haveneast).
A dragon's essential qualities? Vaguely has to resemble the eastern or western dragon forms (or both). It could even be just a massive snake or komodo dragon-type thing, but in general it has to have some serpentine or lizardlike qualities. While they almost certainly need specific physical qualities, their actual natures and some of their traits can be disputed and altered. For example, in Haveneast I also have dragons that are a source of undeath and are technically undead themselves... You could do any number of things, including what Tybalt spoke of. There are various examples of varying roles that dragons can play, including D&D, classic literature, the Pern series, Eragon, and more. It's all up to you.
This may sound like a copout; I believe that a Dragon can represent anything that the author wants it to. There is really no one characteristic that truly defines anything.
there's fairly large room for interprintation offcourse, but all interprintations still work from the same basis.
I'll say it's not only the image of a powerfull scaled being, but an important detail is that it's not only powefilly, it's also a primal power in mortal flesh. something that have shaped the world and fueled the myths from since man lived in caves.
that's what I'll say is one of the the major difference between dragons and other powerfull monsters. demons and angels is a manifistation of evil and good, and not even mortal. and the difference between dragons and the lesser mortal beings. they can slay dragons sure, but they are young, and last for merely the blink of an eye, even the longest living ones.
To me Dragons represent a person's worst fear. whether that be death or success or spiders or whatever. and the giant serpent with wings is just something all people agree would inspire absolute terror. Thats why beating them is so satisfying too, you beat the scariest thing in the world and you are a hero.
The problem with your interpretation, Locknpop, is that you've left no room for good dragons.
They are enormous flying lizards. Some are smart. Some are brutes. Some are good. Some evil. Some magic and/or fire breathing. Others not so much.
I kind of figure each dragon is a unique case, and that they wouldn't bother with things like "breeds" or "species."
You could ask one where it came from, and if it was the smart kind it would tell you it was always there.
To me, a dragon is simply that, a dragon.
I mean, by my definition a dragon is a powerful, reptilian creature with varying intelligence. Some have elaborate plots to control the world, others want nothing more than treasure, and some look out for the little guys and have altruistic goals.
In a larger sense, as I see them, dragons are depictions of mankind's souls. European dragons were rapacious, vicious, and unimaginably destructive. Much like medieval European armies. Eastern dragons were enlightened, orderly, and prone to decadence (the Lung dragon is supposedly inclined to roast swan.) Dragons are the mythical depictions of the potential of mankind. It can be an unthinking machine of destruction, an enlightened and beatific force, or a greedy, machiavellian plotter with immeasurable strength.
That's why we enjoy beating dragons. By defeating evil ones, we strike at the darkness capable in all of us.
Yeah, it's that varied definition that is at issue. For example, the lindorm (legless basically giant snake) is still a dragon, as is the bat-lizard-like classic European wyrm, and the Chinese long dragon is something else entirely. But we call them all dragons, even though they seem to have little in common.
My current list of Kishar dragon categories:
* Amphisbaena
* Feathered Serpent
* Hydra
* Leviathan
* Lindworm
* Long Dragon
* Naga
* Rainbow Serpent
* Sea Serpent
* Wyrm
* Wyvern
Quote from: Stargate525The problem with your interpretation, Locknpop, is that you've left no room for good dragons.
thats because if you beat a good dragon you feel bad
i suppose there would be an upside to having good dragons but only if you convince them to join you against fighting bad dragons. then the good dragons would have to represent, like allwillfall said i think, the goodness that mankind could do.
I personally tend to side with Locknpop's view on dragons. I've never liked good dragons, and handy color-coded ones were always the bane of my existance. In my games dragons are evil, giant monsters that inhabit the darkest corners of your nightmares. Some are Machievellian, others are just brutes, and a couple are repentant, but all have a history of violence and slaughter.
I have to agree defining dragon nature by color is a little too neat and easy. "Ooo, a blue dragon, he must be evil!"
But, while the classic European dragon may be evil, if we are using the word broadly enough to encompass long dragons, feathered serpents, and the like, the picture is not so clear.
The 'true' dragons in Wonders were ultimately powerful and ultimately arrogant, and saw everything apart from themselves -not dragonkind, but just that specific dragon- as worthless. But they all went mad and died, and now there are very few true dragons left.
In literal terms, the question 'What is a dragon' has a specific answer depending on the context. In metaphorical terms, however, it seems clear that a dragon is a symbol of power transcending human understanding and unconcerned with human interests. This distinguishes the tropes of dragon and angel - an angel, for whatever reason, has an interest in human happiness and achievement (a negative interest in the case of fallen angels) whereas a dragon doesn't find humans terribly important. Might find them tasty, though...
Bottom line, a dragon is a pre-Lovecraft Cthulhu.
There are no dragons, and never were. But sometimes, there have been dragon-shaped holes in the world, and holes need filling.
The iconic dragon is representative of power, but so are other things. The Third Reich has been a dragon, and so has the nuclear weapon. The soulless megacorporation is a common incarnation of modern dragon-ness, supplanting the ever-classic secret, malevolent society and/or cult. For futuristic settings, alien creatures and computer intelligences fill the part, when "giant lizard" just doesn't get our engines revved anymore. (See: "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream"-- a terrible tale of humans trapped in the lair of such a creature, with no wings, scales, or fiery breath in sight.)
The "giant flying lizard" version of the dragon is one of many things that can fill a primal human need: to create things we can't control.
A reptilian creature with mythical power, be it elemental (fiery breath, connection with rain) or outright magical (guardian of hidden knowledge), or, occasionally, psychological (persuasive whispers).
Interesting LC, with the dragon as a metaphor, I suppose.
But in the first statement, is that applied to the Jade Stage (no dragons)?
Quote from: DeeLBottom line, a dragon is a pre-Lovecraft Cthulhu.
:-p
My take,
Quote from: DeeLIn metaphorical terms, however, it seems clear that a dragon is a symbol of power transcending human understanding and unconcerned with human interests. This distinguishes the tropes of dragon and angel - an angel, for whatever reason, has an interest in human happiness and achievement (a negative interest in the case of fallen angels) whereas a dragon doesn't find humans terribly important.
The story of George and the Dragon stems from the story of the good Christian Hero destroying the evil non-christian 'other'. Patrick driving the snakes from Ireland is one of those stories. The snake was the Celtic symbol of their religion. It's easy to follow the hyperbole from snakes to serpents, to terrible lizards and on to dragons eventually. I think the European vision of the dragon was exactly how scary the unpure soul and its effects on society is. (Then and now?) Greed, lust, sloth... all the seven deadlies rolled up into a capricious, subtle, finicky, independent but needy (am I describing a cat?) fiercely powerful creature that we need a hero to protect us from. In this way, dragons are very physical and earthly.
Eastern dragons are the guardians of Order, the winds, the cardinal directions and the flow of the heavens in general. Tremendously metaphysical and very transcending of human understanding, but specifically concerned with human interests. Not directly or perhaps individually mind you, but they maintain the house and the grounds that humans live in. Does that make sense? They represent a wisdom that shepherds humanity, not a rapaciousness that eats it.
What I love about dragons is the metaphor itself. If there is a systemic 'wrong', a problem so pervasive that cannot be rooted out without sacrifice and pain, a cancer that eats you physically, mentally and spiritually... it can be represented as a dragon.
If there is a systemic 'right', a process so wise it could not be altered without weakening the system, a balm that supports body, mind and spirit... it can be represented as a dragon.
Dragons represent, to me, the most powerful extremes of the best and worst of the range of earthly human qualities. If the Queen's greed and wars bankrupt nations while enriching herself, you know she's got a dragon. She may be a dragon. If the generosity and wisdom of the Queen is compared to the Gods' own, and her demense is not the envy of, but the example of how to do things right, well and just....
Angels are a different thing entirely.
"The dragons! The dragons are avaricious, insatiable, treacherous; without pity, without remorse. But are they evil? Who am I, to judge the acts of dragons?... They are wiser than men are. It is with them as with dreams, Arren. We men dream dreams, we work magic, we do good, we do evil. The dragons do not dream. They are dreams. They do not work magic: it is their substance, their being. They do not do; they are."
~Ursula K. Leguin, The Farthest Shore
Quote from: Eorla"The dragons! The dragons are avaricious, insatiable, treacherous; without pity, without remorse. But are they evil? Who am I, to judge the acts of dragons?... They are wiser than men are. It is with them as with dreams, Arren. We men dream dreams, we work magic, we do good, we do evil. The dragons do not dream. They are dreams. They do not work magic: it is their substance, their being. They do not do; they are."
~Ursula K. Leguin, The Farthest Shore
I love Ursula LeGuin. Awesome book.
Hmm.
Dragons (Sauroids, as they were termed first by Grazzt and Amerer) were the second servants of the Celestial planars in the Celtrician setting, created in the depths of the Age of Legends. After the Accords of Presesnce and the subsequent binding ot the Decayed Lord of the Cycle, the Dragons were free to go to their northern stronhold and try to create their own civilization.
But during the second age, the Age of Heroes, they were drawn into the insanity of the battle between the agents of the Planars, and the Sauroid settlements chose sides, culminating in struggle bewtween the Bard Numansongs and the Archlich Arbor, where the Sauroid civilization was broken.
Now Dragons are solitary of their own kind, though singly they sometimes find riders in ancient disciples of the Gwynnlian Wingbrethren.
Dragons in Celtricia are huge and powerful. Many of the size rules and damage rules were set into place with Dragons and Giants in mind. We have a low HP setting, with the highest current HP in a PC of over 14 years of continuous play being 36, and the highest ever being 44 for a PC. A young dragon will have that much, but even a young adult dragon will have 60-80, and the greatest ancient dragons will have between 120 and 180 Hp. The protective armor plate gets thicker with age, and an adult dragon has armor that protects more than field plate and a tower shield, yet they are fast and have blinding reflex.
And Dragons all cast in Celtricia, they wer created with a natural tack for funnelling power from the collective unconsious, so they have tremndous mentalsi spell abilities, and most of them show strong affinity for the elemental magics as well, pulling power form the House of Water and the House of Earth, as well as the Well of Fire and the Endless Skies of the Third Station (The House of Fire and the House of Air are no longer).
In Short, though dragons are fierce competitors in most Settings, Celtrican Dragons are built to end the careers of the any silly enough to bother them. Dragons are more than a match for almost any historical heroe. My PC's have run nto 2 young Dragons in the last 12 years, and have gotten lucky to only lose 1/3 of the party both times. And that is the 14 year old group.
Sauroids are born in clutches, and are born grey. Their hues and shades derive from their temperament, not vice-versa, and after about 50 years, they start to 'show their colors'. A mother dragon can try to instill values, but there is no genetic strength to form one color or another, a mother dragon can have 4 hatchlings of 4 different temperamental hues.
Also, it is common for more long lived dragons to be 2 or more colrs in their life, as a Sauroid matures and their life changes them, they may change colors with their maturity. There are far more young colored dragons than metallic or gem hued, though if they survive beyond adulthood, the numbers even out.
(I have an orange dragon...they are very ironic and playfully selfish...)
In Ifpherion: AoE, I took a more SF view for Dragons. They were initially engineered to be able to eat any solid matter and convert it into energy, and to survive a wide variety of environments, though their first use was in the landfills of Earth, Mars, and Europa. Eventually, they were taken everywhere Humans went. It wasn't until the discovery of the Permeable Zones that they gained the mastery of knowledge they are known for today. Until about 4000 AD, they were no smarter than a human. They have become driven to record knowledge, and to generate things to learn about. The Dragons were the first ones to consistently use the unique properties of the Permeable Zones to improve upon technology, and by now they have begun to probe the areas long held not to be possible, such as time travel, divinity, cross-universe travel and Permutations not limited by the input energy.
Of course, they still meddle in the affairs of sentient races, including Humanity and its divergent successor species. Specifically, on Ifpherion, they've assumed the role of enigmatic, mostly harmless oracles, secluded in remote or difficult terrain.
Oh...Permutations...I think I've just found a possible replacement for the name 'magic' in my setting...
Anyway, this is partly based on my own view - that what the most impressive thing about any Dragon is its mind, and to a lesser extent, its magical power [which is often tied to its intelligence].
One quick questions about dragons:
What is it, exactly, that demands they be reptiles? The only fundamentally iconic aspects of dragons, that I can think of as depicting them as reptiles, are the scales, and- arguably- the eggs. What I wonder is, why can't a given setting simply say the "scales" are just thick, flattened hairs, making dragons mammals? Feathers would make them birds, and a semi-aquatic mature might make them amphibians.
So, really, what demands that dragons be reptiles?
If you look at Eastern dragons, they really seem more amphibian.
I think the only thing that classifies them as "reptiles" is that most of their features are reptilian. I would rather argue that "dragon" is a species all itself, independent of any other.